Avoiding Problem Puppies: Monitoring & Managing Milestones

This episode focuses on essential observations and actions breeders must take when the puppies are born.

Join us as we discuss the significance of puppy observations and what breeders should be looking out for, from normal vaginal discharge to the benefits of raspberry leaf as a uterine tonic. Learn about the potential risks of retained placentas and the impact of antibiotics on puppies' gut health and immune systems, which could lead to the dreaded "6-week squits."

Navigate the complexities of energy balance in nursing dams and the importance of daily puppy weighing to track litter gains or losses. We explore scales suitable for accurate puppy weighing and delve into common nursing issues such as frustrated milk moans and latching difficulties.

We discuss how to analyse puppy stools and spot signs of dehydration, ensuring each puppy receives the care it needs to thrive.

Whether you're a seasoned breeder or a newcomer to the world of puppy rearing, this episode of Breeders Brew is filled with invaluable insights and actionable advice to help you navigate the journey from birth to breeding benchmarks with confidence and care.

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Transcript

Isobel: 0:00

Welcome to the Breeders Brew, the dog breeding podcast hosted by me, Isobel, the canine nutrition coach,

Sara: 0:05

and me, Sara the canine family planner.

Isobel: 0:08

Together we'll be promoting responsible breeding by unpicking the minefield of breeding myths and methods for owners wishing to expand their whelping wisdom. Thank you for joining us once again. So in This episode, I'm going to walk you through a detailed list of observations and processes that you can follow for caring and managing your newborn litter. This will include monitoring the puppy's and Dam's vitals daily to help you troubleshoot any potential problems. We've talked about in previous podcasts about how. Free feeding puppies are dealt with and observed with slightly differently to controlled fed puppies. So off the back of that, I believe that controlled fed puppies, sometimes you can pick up issues slightly quicker than if you just got puppies in the whelping box. I have a list here that I made when I was rearing one of my last litters, so I thought it would be a good idea, just a list of observations, it'd just be a good idea just to walk through the list of the things I saw, what that might mean, and as a breeder, what you might need to do to proactively manage the health and well being of those puppies. Does that sound good to you Isobel? Sounds brilliant, and I apologise in advance that I'm being a little bit fidgety. I've got two very clingy dachshunds today that apologise. I'll put it down to pregnancy hormones and another just being needy.

Sara: 1:34

No, that's fine. We're dog friendly here, funny enough, so it's all fine.

Isobel: 1:38

Yeah, back just as well.

Sara: 1:40

Okay, so the first one, and I see this comment online quite a lot, but Is that the female is having vaginal discharge for quite a significant amount of time after whelping puppies. Now this would be totally normal because when she's actually feeding puppies, they're triggering oxytocin that would actually help contract her uterus. Because obviously it's been all stretched and expanded because she's, she's carried pups and whelped those puppies. Oxytocin will help these contractions. to help the reproductive organs return back to their natural size and state. The impact of that contractions is that any lining, internal debris that's there is going to expel, be expelled out through the body, which is exactly what we want it to do anyway. Typically this happens when they are feeding. So generally whenever I'm, I've got puppies feeding, I always just for the first three, three to seven days, just put a, watch a kitchen roll. At the rear end, just to catch any discharge. It just saves you changing your bed in more than you need to. I have had this go on for an excessive amount of time and I excessive to me was perhaps a now three and a half, four weeks. And I've still got discharge. And I had a conversation with my vet and I wasn't concerned. The bitch had no temperature. She was prodding along. Appetite was good. So it was no concern. It was just the fact of, I just had clingy bits of discharge. upper wall on the side of a pen. Like it was just clinging here, there and everywhere.

Isobel: 3:12

The glamorous side of dog breeding.

Sara: 3:14

Exactly that. Yeah. The glamorous side of dog breeding. So I had a conversation with my vet and I had a conversation with Isobel and you recommended a product.

Isobel: 3:23

I did. Yep, natural raspberry leaf. Your vet also recommended exactly the same by pure chance, didn't he? So natural raspberry leaf is great in this instance because you might have also heard it called a uterine tonic. It is used for various different reasons in women and females. and female dogs alike. Essentially the reason why raspberry leaf is so good is, without going into too much detail, it stimulates and increases blood flow to the uterus and helps strengthen the smooth muscle around the uterus. So again, obviously, that As we are wanting that uterus to contract, and in doing so, expel all of it, you know, all of the bits and pieces left in there. Obviously, a contraction of anything requires muscles, so we want to improve that muscle strength there, as well as increasing blood flow, that's just going to help the general health of the uterus. it's brilliant if you've got a bitch that is still discharging after well, as, as Sara's explained here, make sure that you go down the route of a natural raspberry leaf. It sounds really silly. But like with anything in life, you can get a raspberry leaf that is very pure, or you can get a raspberry leaf that is pure. packed full of fillers and doesn't even look like raspberry leaf. You'll know if it looks like raspberry leaf because it will either be literally shredded bits of leaf, which you'll probably struggle to get into your female, or it will be a powder, probably light brown in colour, and it will smell as you would imagine a crushed leaf to smell. So just make sure that it looks like it should because you wouldn't believe the number of products out there that look like like white tablets, but that's not going to contain very much pure raspberry leaf extract in there at all. It's unlikely to have a smooth and quick enough effect on the uterus. So that's what I'll add there. Obviously it goes without saying that as the canine nutrition coach, I do offer raspberry leaf that is 100 percent pure, synthetic free and exactly what it says on the tin. It's in a plant based capsule you pull apart and it is just pure. pure powdered raspberry leaf in there. So if you're looking for a good product, I'm a good place to start.

Sara: 5:24

Brilliant. A note to add to that raspberry leaf has benefits for people whelping puppies naturally. Yeah. However, it shouldn't be given to females where an elective c section has been planned or a possible c section is on the horizon. situation I had, it was with a bullbreed and she did have an elective C section because she had, she was actually carrying 10 pups and we ended up sectioning at 60 days because she was really struggling to actually sleep because she was so big and uncomfortable. I would never give breeds I feel might have a C section. raspberry leaf before because it's counterproductive and I'm sure you can explain on that a little bit. So all I'm trying to say is if you've had a bitch, it's likely to have a C section, just don't start the raspberry leaf until the pups are born.

Isobel: 6:12

Yes, exactly. There are other reasons essentially for going down the route of raspberry leaf. So if you're not breeding, it's a, a non breeding season that your girl's coming into. So, you know, a season following pups or she's too young, et cetera, et cetera. Giving raspberry leaf from day one of season is super to reduce the impact of a phantom pregnancy. Now, as we mentioned in another podcast, the hormones that a bitch will cycle through from day one of season will be almost absolutely identical to whether she has been mated or not. So the things that bodily processes that she goes through following day one of season right up to 63 days or 63 days from ovulation, her body may or may not go through the motions of a full blown pregnancy. I'm sure Sara, you see it a lot where breeders are very excited for a scan telling you that the bitch is definitely pregnant. She's gone through all the signs and symptoms and she's empty. Is it something you see or?

Sara: 7:06

Yeah, a lot.

Isobel: 7:08

Yeah. Bitches that have had full blown phantoms to the point where we've had milk and they are digging it around 63 days and going through the motions of nesting and start sort of collecting toys in their bed and it can genuinely look like first stages of labour. Yeah, I've

Sara: 7:24

had females I've scanned with full milk, no pups, they've come waddling in, you think they're full of puppies and obviously full of air or water because they're not. And now I've learned until I put that ultrasound scanning probe on, I will not even hazard a guess because it is impossible to tell.

Isobel: 7:42

Yeah, it's amazing really that bitches go through this and I, it always surprises me. It's not a more talked about topic I wonder if it's maybe it comes down to observations. Maybe some dog owners aren't quite as hot on it with their observations following a season and maybe don't notice their bitches change in behavior I don't know If you know you're not breeding your bitch, I always recommend you start her on raspberry leaf day one of season because it just minimizes the extent to which her body is going to overexert the pregnancy related symptoms and the phantom pregnancy. So if you've got a breed that's more prone to phantoming, again, I absolutely would not mess around and pop her on raspberry leaf day one of season. So that's a great thing that raspberry leaf is good for. The next is Improving the chances of a smooth labour. So anyone that's got a breed that, like Sara said there, is going to hopefully self whelp. You know, you've had a scan, it's a nice size litter, you're not looking at maybe a singleton, or you're not looking at a huge litter in a small breed where you think you could end up in a C section. or a high risk breed of C section, then I would recommend you start your bitches on Raspberry Leaf no earlier than day 22 gestation. The reason being is because, I'm sure Sara will be able to shed more light on this than, than potentially I will. Pups do need to go through an implantation stage.

Sara: 8:59

Yeah, that's correct.

Isobel: 9:01

I didn't know if there was more science you wanted to add? At implementation

Sara: 9:06

stage. It is a case of the spermatozoa fertilizes the egg, they go through all their divisions and they literally float down the horns and they look for somewhere to embed within the lining. There's an egg already in there. They will literally float down till they find a space and if they don't find a space, they're absorbed back into the body. So that's where technically, To go on a little tangent, females will only carry as many puppies as they're physically able to for that reason. And we've had a conversation, the longer the bitch, the longer the horns, the bigger their litter. Generally at 19 to 21 days, I believe it is. That's when you're looking for egg implantation. And typically that's when a female would, could possibly show signs of morning sickness and wellness because it's tying in with those hormonal changes.

Isobel: 9:52

Yeah, exactly. And that is the process that we absolutely do not want to interfere with at all. So, in the same breath, that is when I keep my girls super quiet. We have a super quiet weekend or midweek, whenever the sort of 19 to 22 days are on the side of caution with my girls. And we have a really nice, quiet, stress free period. No changes to food, no changes to anything like that. And that is why we say don't start Ras Relief until earliest day 22 from, you know, from ovulation or last mating if you haven't ovulation tested because raspberry leaf, as we said, it's a great uterine tonic, it increases blood flow. We don't want to be increasing blood flow to the uterus while those fertilised eggs are trying to implant. We don't want to interrupt that natural process. So therefore, some breeders like to wait potentially until a positive scan date. If you're scanning at 28 days, some breeders might start their bitches on it then, but on the other hand, the flip side of the coin is, unfortunately, if you go for a scan at 28 days and it's bad news and she's missed, then it's all the better that you start her on the raspberry leaf at day 22 anyway, because it will then help minimize the potential following phantom pregnancy. So, That's when I recommend you start your girls on it. For the benefits of whelping, raspberry leaf is brilliant. It's been used by humans for literally decades, if not centuries. Because it increases blood flow and helps tone the smooth muscles. As we mentioned in another, another podcast episode, you need strong muscles for labour. The uterus needs stronger muscles for labour. It's the uterus that actually contracts. It's the uterus that expels those puppies out. By providing her a supplement that's going to help her tone those muscles and strengthen those muscles, you will help her have, hopefully, a smoother and less stressful labour. So, any girl that is planning a self whelp, to me, it's one of the most fundamental supplements that I will never skip my girls on.

Sara: 11:41

Brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for that update. Raspberry Leaf is good, but in the right circumstances. And so you've covered that perfectly. Thank you very much. Many years ago, before reverse progesterone testing was a thing, I'd taken a female to have a c section and we were obviously too early and the vet didn't really Highlight that that was kind of an issue, but she'd gone in, she'd had a C section and I remember she literally got up and walked out the vet's practice and this blood just like across the floor, up the wall, everything. And I remember thinking, Is this okay? And he's like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. I was like, okay then, put your full trust in the bear, off we go. And she was fine, but what he had done, and he hadn't told us, is basically he had taken pups out, but he'd left placentas in. So ultimately that meant, She passed all the afterbirth and they are like, because she's been a couple of days old, they're not fresh with a puppy. It's like loads of bits of liver just sliding out. And obviously we weren't aware of that's what's happened. So it would have been nice of him just to have said, just to mention, you might be expecting this. She was fine. So that's why I never, Freak out too much with people that, Oh my God, you've got to count the puppies and the afterbirths. And if you don't get them all, you've got to get into the vet and you've got to give them oxy. Honestly, once the pups are on a feeding oxy level is going to increase anyway. And it's just going to pass all of that gunk over a matter of time anyway, especially if she doesn't have a temperature and especially if she's not unwell in herself, it'd be fine. So I'm quite, having gone through that scenario, I'm quite. chilled about retained placentas. I'm like, it will pass eventually.

Isobel: 13:17

It's a really interesting thing that you've mentioned there because it is definitely something that we see online and I get asked, you get asked all the time is, Ah, do I need to rescan my bitch? I only saw four placentas and we had eight pups.

Sara: 13:31

Yeah. And just like, don't worry, it will come through. And like, if you were that worried, okay, you could get a preventative course of antibiotics. You were that concerned about it. Obviously we've had conversations about antibiotics, how much that was going to impact the puppy, their digestive system.

Isobel: 13:47

Personally, my opinion is absolutely, there is no need to give preventative antibiotics. I think. No, bitches. Particularly if she's Got a strong immune system and she's a fit, healthy dog. Her body would also be more likely to be able to fight anything that going going on. And if there is a little bit of a problem, I'm not saying don't get antibodies if she needs them, absolutely. Go get them. When you've got young pups and there's a potential, depending on the antibiotic type that you're given, that that could pass through the milk into the immune system of those puppies. You puppy's guts. any good bacteria in its first few days, weeks of life, and you will genuinely potentially impact that puppy's immune system for a very long time. And you will be met, you could potentially make your life as a breeder so much harder because you are more likely to go through the six week squits and, and things like that. And if you've got poorly young puppies, it is a struggle. They're just likely to, you know, To thrive a lot less if they've been through, you know, potential course of antibiotics through mum's milk at an early point. So I must err on the same side of the fence as you, Sara, when it comes to retained placentas. I'm not running down to the vets to get antibiotics. However, there is a protocol I personally put in place for retained placentas. So I am very conscious of counting after birth. It is something I do with my bitches. So I have. My puppy log beside me, I actually use a puppy playbook, um, that Sara has in stock, I'm sure. So I use that and I do jot down there. Well, times when she starts contractions, I log everything through birth. So that again, knowledge is power. I count after birth and I also don't let mum eat every after birth. I let her eat some. and depending on the size of the litter that will play into it but for my girls two placentas is plenty for her to be eating otherwise she's then going to have an upset tummy in the following days which is no good for her when she's bed bound in the whelping box. But the reason I say I count placentas is because if I've found that she's retained two placentas A significant number or, or more than one or something like that, I actually do take my girl's temperature every day following whelp because I would rather nip an infection in the bud and catch a high temperature very quickly. So because I'm doing the puppy vitals daily, which I'm sure we'll probably cover in this episode, I'm going through that sort of husbandry. set of protocol every day anyway so as part of that I will take my girl's temperature a minimum of once a day at the same time of the day every day because I would rather be proactive, catch a higher temperature in the initial instance and deal with it straight away rather than again my breed are smaller. Although they're not stoic with pain levels in the slightest, and they will show it at the slightest, slightest part of pain, but with them being small, when they go downhill with any form of illness, they go downhill quickly. I don't keep my dogs in sort of weighty condition or anything like that. So they don't have a lot of reserves. So I don't mess around. If I've got a poorly dog, I nip it in the bud quickly.

Sara: 16:42

Yeah. No, that's really valid point. We just unintentionally covered some like damn management. What should you be doing?

Isobel: 16:48

I'm doing some of the pups anyway. It's just. part of the protocol. Particularly if you're a new breeder, you've not had many litters, so you don't know the signs and symptoms you're looking out necessarily for a poorly mum. There's no harm in taking a temperature once a day, absolutely not. It's a good preventative measure and if you, or if you've got a girl that's very stoic, like Sara mentioned her bulldogs are, And again, you think, oh my goodness, if they were in pain, I wouldn't even notice. Then again, maybe taking temperature would be, would be great in that instance too.

Sara: 17:14

So as we said, it is always the first question the vet's gonna ask you. Yeah. Or the first thing they're going to do once they've got a dog in their consultation runs, they don't do it for fun, it's for a reason. And we've already covered in the wellbeing kicked, didn't we? About what? thermometers we prefer and why. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and do so. So let's carry on through my list basically, and I'm going to focus a little bit more now actually on puppies. So I know I've previously talked about balancing feed time versus energy used, and this is more so for pups that are Start off quite small and not necessarily gaining weight as they should do. I think there needs to be a conscious management of how long do you let that puppy feed for, realistically, how much milk are they getting during that feed versus the energy that they're using. And I know that I consciously reduced. beads for a puppy because I don't want to go past that threshold that they're now actually losing weight while trying to feed on milk. So the only way for that to become apparent, be aware of that and manage that is by weighing the pups daily. I know we've talked about this already and I know we talked about like ID collars, puppy ID collars for breeds that look very similar. Like I couldn't tell my Labrador puppies. apart at all. It was a full chocolate litter. Every bulldog looks different. You said pretty much with your Daxies, you can work out who's who, say smaller litter sizes, different colors, that kind of thing, and sexes. But for me, and it's in the puppy playbook, every puppy has a report card. It is a thing that I do religiously of making sure. You weigh that puppy, preferably the same time every day. You make note, you make, the things I like to make note of, obviously if they lose weight, how much they're losing or gaining weight a day. But if they've lost weight, I always make note of when they actually passed their birth weight, because that's still a significant increase. And then obviously from that point onwards, who's the The heavy is to the lightest. Why? I'd say it's not just actually the individual puppy observation is that in the whole data and comparing them. And I generally go through after a puppy way per SG as in smallest gain and BG as in biggest gain. And obviously if I had a puppy where I've written SG two or three days in a row, that's telling me, well, not only this puppy isn't gaining as the rest of them. And why is that not on a Productive teat is another puppy, always pushing them off. Being conscious of just managing puppies feeds is a good way to prevent having to think I'm going to have to hand rear this puppy, or I'm going to have to supplement feed. Sometimes just a minor changes will make a big difference. And I know that is easier with breeds that are kept in puppy boxes and control fed versus. Pup's free feeding. There's still nothing wrong with you going.

Isobel: 20:07

I completely agree. I completely agree with what you're saying.

Sara: 20:10

To be fair, with the Labrador litter my mum was actually over from, because she lives abroad. So she was actually over with me for this litter. Every morning she said, which one do I need to pay attention to? And I'd be like, green collar. Just make sure whenever you look in the pen, green collars. On and on a decent teat. And so every morning she literally asked me.

Isobel: 20:29

And see, you only knew that presumably because of ways and the fact that he was SG or smallest gain on your puppy log. Yeah. So it's so beneficial, isn't it? And you are right that even if you've got litters, I mean, as good as, as good as your Labrador, she was a fabulous mum from what you said, even if you've got a dog like that, which literally just needs. You know, just a bit of your attention and you in the room every now and then, and otherwise they're more than happy to crack on, there are things you can do. And again, it is something that you should be doing, and if you do know smallest gain pup, or if you know that someone was born a lot smaller than the rest, or slightly weaker, the only way you know that is by taking those observations and writing that down, and if you can see a pup is Always the last one to the teats or always being knocked off. Again, that's something that I personally write down because if you proactively manage that, as if there is always one pup that is never getting to the decent teats and always their last, I will happily put a big pup on, get the milk flowing, take that pup off, and put little pup on. And I've got a breed that do, sort of, do the work themselves. Mum has free access to pup, is in the well prepared with them the whole time. But I will still proactively manage that puppy feeding regime in the first Week or so just to make sure everyone's gaining. So it isn't just breeds that are very hands on that should have this level of care. A lot of things going wrong can be mitigated by a bit of proactive observation and management, particularly in puppy feeds.

Sara: 21:50

I know a few peoples opinions of don't bother weighing them until they need worming. Gives me anxiety hearing that. I know. Well, I just think, well, if you're a responsible breeder, it doesn't take more than 10 minutes just to weigh the pups. And that gives you so much information. It's almost like a form of neglect not to do it and not, and then suddenly go, Oh, well, why is that pup cold in the bed? And why is that?

Isobel: 22:17

Oh, we lost a pup at a week old. Yeah, it does make me wonder if a lot of those pups are lost just by. Again, in the wild back in the day, like obviously bitches had large litters, not all the pups would survive. When you've got these tools available to you, there is no need for. Obviously some pups weren't, weren't ever viable and things happen and that's a completely different story. But failing to thrive due to poor milk and feed management is, we can do better than that. We can. We've got, we've got scales available to us. We've got, hopefully all of us, a set of eyes in some working capacity, whether the glasses are not, but you know, you, you've got them, use them. It's such a simple thing to do and yeah, there really is no excuses and I've got a good question for you. Yeah. Yeah. What scales do you like? Because this is another thing I see a lot. People get sort of hung up on what, what type of scales should they be using?

Sara: 23:09

I think most people use baby scales, like flat, large dish, you know, flat, maybe with a dish or maybe fully out flat. Do you know what? Randomly, I don't know how I have these like catering scales and I don't know how I've got them. So they're actually quite big with a big like broad metal base on which means I can stick a bowl on it and put a puppy in it up. And I think they weigh up until. I think they do something crazy like 15 kilos. Oh, that's a really broad range. Yeah. They're a countertop. I don't know where they've come from. I've inherited them somehow. I'm sure I'm not the person where I borrowed them and didn't give it back. They are definitely mine. I just don't know how it might be like bizarre. Car boot or something or other. So that's what I've always used. And they, I will use them until they, they stop working basically. Because they are countertop, they're not very big yet. They have a really high weight tolerance to them. Previously I've used fishing hooks where pups big. Yeah. That you could just put them in like a cotton. tote bag or whatever.

Isobel: 24:12

I never would have thought of that. That's a really interesting out of the box idea. Literally would never have even crossed my mind. Yep. Well, there you go. I mean, to be fair, yours are probably aren't going to get heavy enough to worry about. No, no, it's probably no difference to goldfish. The guys go out and catch and are really proud of it down at the lakes.

Sara: 24:34

I'm sure you could probably use equally the same thing, luggage, digital luggage.

Isobel: 24:37

Well, interesting you say that. I was just thinking the opposite actually in my mind because for those of you that don't know, scales have a sweet spot. So every set of scales will have a sweet spot. So you'll find if you go and stand on your bathroom scales, so for me, for example, I couldn't weigh my Dachshunds using bathroom scales. The reason being is bathroom scales are designed for. An average human weight, whether that's sort of a, you know, a child to right up to a six foot five rugby player. So, you know, you've got a very large scale that scales need to pick up. However, they are not designed to have a one ton elephant on and they are not designed to have a feather or a four kilo baby put on or a dog. If you have a small breed, pups and things like that, bar some scales are not suitable, even for my adult dogs, in order to weigh them, I have to stand on the scales, write down my weight, then stand on the scales with the dog to then take an adult dog's weight. The reason being is because I'm then working within that scales threshold. If you look on the box that the scales comes in, it will even say on there as to what it's, you know, Manageable threshold is. So that's just a word of advice. Don't expect your bathroom scales to be able to weigh puppies because they will not have the capability to put a pup on and it will think every single pup's 500 grams when actually no, one was 300, one was 800 and one was 600. A word of caution there is you do need to use scales that have the window of tolerance that your puppy you sit in.

Sara: 26:05

Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes perfect sense. Okay. Let's move on to some observations when puppies are actually feeding. So if a puppy is moaning a lot while they're feeding, so they're, they're like, they're, they're pumping away and head nods going, but then they literally whinging throughout a bit. Typically, that suggests to me that the puppy's getting slightly frustrated'cause of the lack of milk. So they probably are receiving milk, but not in enough for the effort that they're, they're putting in. And that's why they're so jolly going along. It's more of a frustration, kind of moaning. It's worth observing. Is it on a particular teat or are all the pups doing it? And milk hasn't come in yet, are we? Within the three day? milk drop window. Okay. Fair enough. So they're just a bit like, yeah, we know eventually it's going to kick in. We just got to keep going. So I think it's worth just learning to tune your ear into what type of noises they're making. And you can start to pick out between frustration, contentment, to heart, you know, there there's all these different noises. And I've said before in a previous podcast, I was surprised how squeaky, that's not how I define it. My Labrador puppies were compared to some of the other breeds that I've had, but with that said, when they're feed ins, all puppies do the same kind of thing. Generally the teats at the front, are less milk producing, but equally I find the ones at the back, because they tend to have more mammary tissue, the pups don't always like it because they can't get the tension right for them to be sucking on. So I always find the middle of the bar are generally the favoured ones. It's just good to be aware of a moaning, but feeding puppy to me just signifies a low level of frustration and it could escalate one way, it might not, but just to be aware of.

Isobel: 27:57

Just jumping there this is something that I would be jotting down in my observations because if you've got a litter that, particularly with me that I generally have obviously smaller than average litters, so especially for me, it's very clear that I will find certain puppies end up in the same order on mum very regularly. So if you've got a moany puppy that is always at the top end of those teats, it could well be that that pup always gets kicked to the end and that's why they're up there and that's why they're frustrated. It's all well and good to have total access, everyone's feeding, it all looks great. I take observations of which pups end up on the same nipples each time because it's not uncommon for me to find that the biggest Generally bruiser pups end up right down at the bottom on the big gorging milk nipples and I end up with the small weenie pups up on the top. Generally then, then also sort of miss out, they're a bit, likely to be a bit more frustrated. So it tells you a lot about what you need to do as a breeder, even if your mother dog is being fantastic, you do sometimes need to step in and change that ordering yourself.

Sara: 29:01

Yeah, I'm all for, like you say, letting a big pup pull some milk in and then swapping them over. You know, it can go a long way. Next on my list, how do you tell a puppy's latch correctly? And the first initial feeds, there's quite a lot of apprehension I always feel. Pups are born, let's get them latched on and get the process going. Let's know that they're feeding okay. It makes me laugh a little bit because if, if you have a C section, sometimes the sort of Nurses and professionals, they go, Oh, we put the pups on for a feed. And I thought, well, you haven't. You probably aimed them in the direction of the teats of area. It's interesting. Actually, also different breeds have like this different level of instinct. So obviously being naturally born, they've been through the whole process that they should have been. A naturally born puppy, once they've been dried off and they've been stimulated and cord dealt with, they're hungry and they just want to seek and find a teat if it's an average healthy puppy. Pups born by C section haven't gone necessarily through that whole chain of events. So they can be quite noisy and squeaky, but be quite lethargic and not necessarily have like this innate instinct to find a teat to latch onto. Different breeds are just so different. With a lot of bulldogs, they can be quite, Slow to understand what a T is and that you need to suck it the point where I've had to wedge mouths open round teats in that you hold heads there until they've gone, Oh, I should suck this. And then, and then they're like, Oh yeah, this is the thing. And then, but you have to be almost that forceful. And people get worried about doing this.

Isobel: 30:41

Again, self whelps generally, all goes smoothly. Pups come out kicking and screaming, know what they're doing. There is always a puppy that needs help latching, always. And it is. You open the mouths from the side, you hold their heads on, and I would sooner do that than go, Ah, it'll be alright, I'll just keep an eye. And that's why, again, observations are so important, because if you notice a pup keep falling off, that's another sign that they're just not latching properly, and I will hold heads on for a feed if it needs to be done.

Sara: 31:09

Yeah, some actually get, they'll be feeding, but they're really head noddy and then unsucker themselves back on. So I've been known literally to hold my back of my hands behind their heads and be like, you're not moving your head past this point until you work out. Like you don't need to move your head that much. Use your paws more. Not all the head stuff, it's you, you should pause more and I know people they've had to express a bit of milk, rub it all around the teeth, some people I know put a bit of like honey on.

Isobel: 31:36

After a c section, I find that's more common. I generally find it's after c section, we have to start playing those games of expressing colostrum, sort of wiping it all around the area so the pups understand that's what they need to go for and generally touch wood, that's only the few times we've had to do it. But again, if you've got a failing pup that doesn't get it, these are tricks that you should be employing. Before going down the route of supplement feeding, because let me assure you, supplement feeding is far harder.

Sara: 32:00

Yeah, and we're going to cover that in another episode. A puppy that's correctly latched on, they're very quiet. They are, you can sometimes see the tongue round the side of the mouth, curving round the teeth, where they actually cause the suction at that point. So they're just sucking the milk through. Legs can be extended straight if they're, If they've got a tail, tail's normally sticking up or got some tension to it where they're putting the effort through their body. Feeding pups that are latched on correctly are generally very quiet and very productive with what they're doing. If you can hear a smacking noise and it's all up, and they think it's a lot of effort, it's all very dramatic as if they're acting they're not latched on properly. They're going through the motions, but they've not realised they're not latched on properly. So generally I take them off. and then maybe find a better teat or hold a bit of tension in the teat for them to actually suck her back on it and create that proper seal. So yeah, if you just, if it's a lot of noise and a lot of drama, they're not on properly and you need to work out why that might be the case. If you have a puppy, and I generally find this with greedy puppies, once they've worked out, this is how I feed. Mum's milk's kicked in. You can get some pups that are very efficient with it. And ultimately what happens is they start blowing bubbles out of their nose. Typically, as soon as that starts happening, I take the pup off straight away. I use a nose bulb aspirator and just clear all the nasal cavity, give them a bit of a belly. Sometimes you can hear they get a bit crackly and a bit chesty here, make sure their chest is clear and put them on a harder teat, basically. And if that keeps on happening with the same puppy, then you need to actively make sure that pup's on a harder teat. And I've had this in C section control fed pups. And I've had this even with the Labradors where every time. And again, that's the blessing of collars. Every time I've looked down, Orange has got milk out of his nose again. Orange has got milk. Right. So Orange is the greedy guts and he was, he was the heaviest puppy. No surprise. Cause he was always the one putting in the hours. And so that can be managed. So you've got to make sure that the airways are all clear. Cause the last thing you want is them aspirated milk. And then that's going to be a whole bigger problem when that pup comes. It's not well, and so clearly airway, and if it's a heavy, big, chunky pump, I'd be like, you don't actually need to feed anyway. Like I'd put them down the other side of the bed and leave them be for a bit, or put them onto a harder teeth. It just happens to be feed time and everybody's, everybody's getting involved. So I don't know if you've got anything to,

Isobel: 34:33

No, nothing to add, but it is something that happens in my breed as well, and it's something I actively manage, just as you said there, Sara. If I see bubbly noses, straight off, we bulb aspirate and play it by ear as to whether that, again, whether that's a small gain puppy, a large gain puppy and manage it in a very similar way to yourself. Bye. So for me, the bulb aspirator is next to the whelping pen for a good length of time, because I'd rather have it there at hand and crack on and use it. It's another thing that people are quite worried about how forceful they can be. You'll always do more good than harm when it comes to the bulb aspirator, in my opinion.

Sara: 35:06

Moving on to, if you have a puppy that latches on, feeds for a bit, and this is what drives me crazy when people go, Oh, I know when a puppy's full, because you just feel their bellies and I've got nice little round bellies to them. Normally that means that puppy needs wind in because I've had it with plenty of puppies where they feed and that's when they've generally got the mojo. So the milk's in, going to plan quite easy and they're, they latch on, they do a bit of a feed and then they stop and you think, well, that's a bit weird. Oh, they've got a nice big belly. So anyone think, Oh no, they're, they're full. Put them back or put them to one side, that's okay. Trust me. If you wind that puppy, they will belch or they will pass a bowel movement. I've done a whole video on this, but generally if you, if you feel a puppy might need winding, you need to sit, sit with them, like on the palm of your hand, head elevated up and literally just use your fingers and do that on their belly. And it takes a long time. Like if you just want to go like, Oh no, pup's fine. It's done. No, I've sat there for at least one hour. four or five minutes solid at least, and then you get the most biggest belch or they will then pass a bowel movement and then they might want to latch back on again. But I generally believe not enough people are winded puppies.

Isobel: 36:21

And it's bizarre to me because as humans, it's a concept that we're really familiar with like, yeah, birthing a baby. I mean, it's. It's, you see on TV, everyone's always there, tap, tap, tap with the baby over the shoulder, the sick cloth down there. It's just something that we are so comfortable with, with babies, it's something that's completely forgotten about in, in pups.

Sara: 36:42

Definitely if you're supplement feeding, hand rearing, it's a, it's a must. after every feed you have to do it. As you say, when they're in the whelping bed and free feeding, but there's no harm in just going through after a feed and just like quickly window them all, or just looking at the ones that have got slightly extended belly and thinking it's worth doing. So that will solve a lot of problems. And a lot of people fact finding and troubleshooting is always a good. perspective to come from when you've got something that's not quite right and you can't put your finger on it. Where I had a client throw me out, she was absolutely in tears and she's like, I think I'm losing this litter. It's a large litter, large bridge, large litter. So I think there's about eight to 10 pups from what I can remember. I think I'm losing all these puppies. And I thought, well, that's weird. Cause you've just updated Instagram and they were looking very sparkly in there, in their beds and this, that, whatever. And she said, yeah, they're really lethargic. They won't feed. They're just not right. There's something not right. So I said, talk me through what you're doing. Cause it was a large litter. She was letting some feed on mum and then she was bottle feeding other. Well, I've got a feeling she's bottle feeding all the pups on all the feeds and then Seeing it while she's doing that, letting them go on mum said, okay, then how much are you feeding them? It was some crazy amount. She was like, it was, she could, she was equivalent of like giving them half a pint of milk. Perfect. It was just some crazy amount. No, they're not lethargic. They're not fading. She literally thought they're fading away. I said, they're in milk comas, you're over feeding them. They're not hungry. Cause she's like, they're not waking up. No, cause they're not hungry. She was literally. Force feeding these puppies. And straight away I said, reduce the amount of milk you're giving them and take out one of your feeds. You're doing too many feeds in a day and you're feeding them too much. 24 hours later, yeah, no, that fixed the problem. So she went from my pups are dying, they've got fading. So my pups are thriving.

Isobel: 38:43

I mean, that's a great way around to have it. I'd pick that way around every day of the week to be fair.

Sara: 38:48

Yeah, so they were literally in milk comas. They were filled to the brim. It was too much. And in a, yeah, in her head, she's taking that as they were lethargic. They didn't want to feed. They weren't right. So she obviously just didn't know the amount of milk her puppies needed. for the breed.

Isobel: 39:04

Which again is interesting and it's something we should definitely cover in a podcast episode if we do supplement feeding because I think it is shocking when you see how little puppies need when you if you've got a free feeding breed where mum's in the whelping box the pups that they're constantly feeding so in your head you assume that they must be getting a ton of milk because even if it's not all the pups always feeding because it always looks like there are pups feeding, whether they're on rotation or whatever's going on in that, in that welfare box. It is shocking how little they need to survive.

Sara: 39:36

Most people, and I think it is a slight obsession at the moment that all pups should be super fat and super wrinkly. And the amount of calories people are trying to force feed into some puppies is crazy. And I know back in the day, The way I used to wean pups and I'd put so much food down, they'd eat it and I seen stretching and hunching because they're trying to push all the food down so they could fit more in. And back then I was like, Oh yeah, obviously it's totally normal thing to do, which now that's not. A puppy shouldn't be hunching and trying to ram food down to fit more in because they don't know what the off button is. The off button is whatever you put down. But they're always going to try and eat it. We've had a conversation about how some breeds are rounder ribbed and they might be less comfortable laying on their side. Sometimes what I do, and I've, we talked about pillows to support them. Sometimes what I do is I'll actually bridge the gap in between, like there's a void that's from mum to bedding and puppies and laying across been known partially to put, we talked about. Tea towels and nappies, terry towels before. Sometimes I like to roll up like a towel into a sausage shape and just bridge the gap there. So it makes a female more stable on her side, but then actually the pups aren't hanging in midair. They've actually got something to rest on while they're feeding. And equally, I am a person. I do like to cover my pups over when they're feeding. I didn't. With the labs, because again, I've already said that she liked to be cooler rather than warmer anyway, with my bulldog cups. I don't know why I like make them all snuggie. I won't turn up house temperature.

Isobel: 41:11

Well, do you know why I think that is? Because like you said, you have your pups in an incubator. So when they're brought out of an incubator, it's like, into the feeding bed, the feeding bed naturally would be a much colder environment. So it makes sense for you to be covering those pups back up. Otherwise you're almost taking them out of a warm environment, shocking them into cold at a point when their bodies need to be lovely and warm to digest. I think that's a really good tip for anyone that's bringing pups out of an incubator into another room. Be conscious of how much colder that room will feel to that pup.

Sara: 41:42

Otherwise we're gonna start causing issues there. And then yeah, general unwellness with huge variation of temperatures and that kind of thing. Yeah. But yeah, it's just a thing that I, a weird thing that I've done, puppies always look really cute as well when you're taking pictures and they're like covered over and looking a little bit snugging and stuff, picture blankets. I might do it for the Instagram as well, who knows? But . Yeah. No, it's just a habit that I've, I've got into that I like to do. I see no negatives to doing it, so I've, I've obviously carried on doing it. But breed dependent.

Isobel: 42:09

Again, if you're in, if they're in the welcome box, they're likely to be feeding on the heat pad or nearby the heat pad anyway. So not always necessary.

Sara: 42:17

Yeah. And one thing to bear in mind as well is that puppy should always feel warmer than us. They have a higher body temperature. So if you ever pick up a pup and it doesn't feel warm, it's not warm and you need to intervene with that. Whether that's putting it on the heat pad, if you've got one, whether that's. wrapping it up in some blankets and making it a little bit warmer. And obviously investigating why is that puppy not as warm as all the rest of them?

Isobel: 42:42

Or if they're all cold, why are they all cold? So yeah, temperature. A cold puppy is a lethargic puppy as well, which is worth mentioning. Like if you have a lethargic puppy, in my opinion, the first thing I'm checking is body temperature without any shadow of a doubt. Yeah.

Sara: 42:55

I can't remember what it is, but they can't actually shiver to generate body heat. Can they? Up until a week old or something like that.

Isobel: 43:02

I think it's two weeks, but I might be wrong. Someone correct me.

Sara: 43:05

No, that's fine. Well, we know it's at some point they're not born being able to shiver. So that's why a heat source is so important for newborn pups, regardless of the breed. They should be able to, if they need to, they should be able to warm themselves up because they can't generate that own body heat themselves. Just to backtrack a little bit, what I didn't mention before we move on to puppy poos is puppies moaning post feed. Then you need to investigate as to why. Winding is a quick way of finding out whether you can soothe them by winding them. If that doesn't do the trick, then it might be that it's a lack of milk and that needs further investigation as to, should there be on better teats, has milk come in, has milk come in, but it's not a good quality. Do you need to supplement, feed, what other considerations should be made? I've talked about it before, there are like these minor, Breeding benchmarks, which I feel is three days, 10 days and three weeks. If a pup passes within the first three days, that's generally because internally organs aren't working correctly with metabolisms, that kind of thing. And there's not much you do. There's not much you can do to save. A failing pup within the first three days. If it's in the first 10 days, generally, I think that is feed milk related. What can you do? Can supplement feed help that puppy? And we're going to cover that in a separate episode. And then we've already talked about weaning at three weeks. I think that is another like developmental burst. A puppy's being able to digest food and break that down and process that in their body. And that can be a sink or swim kind of scenario and it's not unheard of where people go, Oh, the one that opened their eyes first and I weaned first, I then lost. It will be internal things. If a pup doesn't grow right, generally past three weeks, liver shunt is always worth being investigated and considered. And though it is rare, people can still lose pups at six weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks. You really don't know what's around the corner. You, you do all your checks, obviously and your worming and all that protocol. But, you know, none of us know what's around the corner when it comes to breeding combinations, anyone can have a bit of bad luck to me. I would only be concerned if you're continually having the same problem in different litters, then you need to look as to why that might be. And should you change a breeding female breeding male, should one be withdrawn from the breeding availability pool? And likewise, if you had a stud dog, you could just have bad combinations and you do a breeding and. That whole litter has something. If you see your stud dog is continually producing the same problem in different litters, then you need to think about whether he should be at public stud or whether he should be tested for something or restricted to only certain females. Breeding is very much the big picture. You can't just go on one litter. It's stepping back and looking at a collective amount of litters. ones that you've bred, ones that people have used your stud dog and have a serious decision as to whether that dog should be in the breeding pool. And the hard thing with breeding is obviously that all takes time. So it's just a bit of a nightmare that you might not get chucked a curve ball with a stud dog until they were three, four years old. And he's already sighed X number of litters. Unfortunately, that's just how it goes. Obviously we recommend that you're proactive with your health testing. to avoid some really obvious health conditions and diseases. Sometimes it is just a combination of dogs together and you won't find that out until you're further down the line. Something that I've started, that Isobel and I have had a conversation with, for my dogs that I breed, I'm going to start sending like annual audit. I'm not going to call it that to the, to the new owners, but basically it's just a check in. Once a year I'm going to go, Hey, how's the dog as well as Puppy owners say they're going to stay in contact with you. They don't. Life gets busy. Your life gets busy. So I totally understand it. It's not anyone being neglectful to anybody else. Once the pups get to 12 months, 18 months, they generally fall off your radar unless they're proactive on your Instagram and tagging you in stuff and that, but that's very few and far between. So I decided I'm going to send out this annual audit. Cause it's in my interest to know how long did the dog live? What ailments have you been at the vets with? Cause I might know better solutions than what the vets come up with. Are there certain conditions? Is he, she on meds? You know, when did he die? So there's a whole health audit that I don't know. Once they leave me, unless that person makes the effort to actually come and tell you and I think generally people don't and it's quite sad because unless you just happen to scroll past it on Facebook, they're probably never going to come and tell you. So for my own development of my bloodline and I'm already, I think I'm nine generations in now. Yeah, actually this is really key information for me to know and let's gather that information together. If possible, and it's just where...

Isobel: 47:54

proactivity is the way forward at the end of the day, because the more proactively you manage everything in your breeding program from start to finish, knowledge is power. We always say it, this is how you become the most ethical of breeders that you can be, is using every piece of information that is available to you.

Sara: 48:13

Yeah. Yeah. And like Kennel Club sending out surveys nowadays to gather information because they know, okay, we register all the dogs, but we don't actually know the further details down there. I know some of the breed councils of certain breeds, they will send out surveys. So I'm like, yeah, why should that just, you know, we get it all the time, customer service surveys and. Yeah. Kind of thing. So yeah. Why does that not apply to breeders? Cause how else do we know unless we ask? So yeah, I think definitely on the agenda for me and something for maybe you guys to consider. Right. Quickly. We're going to look at stools and then cause we need to end this at some point. So. Just a quick lowdown on stools and that puppy poos. We see questions online going, is this normal? My puppy's doing this. So a quick breakdown. First poos are typically brown, sticky and tarry. They're all a bit gooey and all a bit gunky on a puppy. That is fine. That is normal. A typical puppy poo, once milk has kicked in, should be yellow and smooth. Just a light, pale yellow, smooth log. If it's brownie, then equally that's fine. But if it's yellow, it's consistency and texture is more important than the actual colour at this point. When people, and this is what they generally post, are oh, I've got bright yellow poo, it smells a bit and it's all graduated and it's got all pips in.

Isobel: 49:32

It's like mustard seeds for those of you that can't picture this. It's the mustard seed poo and you will see it all over the Facebook group.

Sara: 49:40

Yeah, mustard seed poos. A mustard seed poos is basically overfeeding. That's it. So if you restrict How long they feed for, or if maybe you reduce a feed per day, you'll probably fix that problem. It's not detrimental to the puppy if they overfeed. We've had a conversation, in some breeds you are more likely to going to get sore bums. because of overfeeding, just because they are toileting more. If mum's not cleaning the puppies and you're doing it, then that means you're getting involved a bit more and that you can irritate that area more. So I would say that's the downside of it's not going to impact the puppy to any significant degree. I don't know, maybe they might get a bit of bellyache with it but not too much. enough to put them off from feeding, especially if you're winding them anyway, but you could end up with sore bumps. I've talked about I prefer bepanthen, some people use sudocrem, some people use petroleum jelly. Isobel mentioned coconut oil is a good thing to soothe sore bottoms, but they are really the types of, the types of poo that all the phases you're going to go through as a breeder with the different types of poo. So I don't know if there's anything. You want to add to that, Isobel?

Isobel: 50:53

No, not while the pup's young. Obviously you're likely to see different poos as pups then wean onto food and things like that. But we're likely to cover that in the weaning episode anyway. So I think that is the most commonly seen poos in the whelping box. Yeah. And you might see no poos at all. Let me add that in as well. That is another panic I see all the time. People go, Oh my goodness, I don't think my puppies are pooing! Help! If your pups are gaining weight and they're feeding nicely, I can assure you that they are pooing, it's just mum is doing such a stellar job that she is saving you the work.

Sara: 51:26

Yeah, I think you'll feel comforted not seeing that if you're weighing your puppies and you're handling them regularly anyway that you'd pick up any early signs of any problems. Just one more thing to say, if mum's not interested in cleaning puppies, which sometimes can come hand in hand with C sections, that you have to do that yourself. So you end up toileting them, which typically is a cotton ball dabbed in some mild water just to stimulate the pup as if you're acting like mum's tongue. To a degree, I quite like that, or even if I put a pup up to mum to lick, I generally, Like hold the pup from a hike. Cause I want to actually see how much that puppy urinates. Cause again, that will tell you how hydrated the pup is to know how much they're feeding. And so if you do that and you're only getting a few spots, or if you do a cotton ball and it's really dark urine, that's telling you this puppy isn't feeding enough, it's dehydrated. If you hold up to mum and there's a big stream, like a waterfall, then, you know, guess what this pup's feeding well. Urine. Checks is good just to know how dehydrated or hydrated that pup is. And that's never a bad thing when you've got a pup that you already think, Oh, it's not feeding right and not doing this right. Or seems a bit cold. That's another good check and good way to know whether you need to get more involved. Yeah. And change up the situation a bit.

Isobel: 52:45

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's something that a lot of people forget that they can do, especially if you've got a mum that does everything. It is a really easy check that you can do on a pup.

Sara: 52:54

Yeah, super, super, super easy. Okay. That's it. That was my, we've touched a bit on dam management and we also went through some initial puppy management processes and procedures that will help you identify early on if you've got a problematic pup and if you should then consider. Hand rearing, supplement feeding, we shall cover in another episode. So if you want to continue the conversation, you need to join us in our Breeders Brew Facebook community. I'm sure nowadays, if you just Google Breeders Brew or search Breeders Brew, we're going to come up somewhere for you to click.

Isobel: 53:31

Joys of Google.

Sara: 53:33

Yes, exactly. Exactly there. Otherwise, as we always said, please share us with like minded breeders proactively, subscribe to us and rate and And look forward to seeing you next time. See you later.

Isobel: 53:45

Bye.

Sara: 53:48

Hey, just a quick one before you go. Head to breedersbrew. com to claim your free critical care sheet and to receive your invitation to join the Breeders Brew community forum.