Perfecting Hand-Rearing & Techniques for Tube Feeding Puppies

In this heartfelt episode, we delve into the intricacies of caring for newborns, emphasising the importance of a strong start in life and addressing common congenital conditions.

Sara challenges the notion of the "runt of the litter", shedding light on the prevalence of puppy abnormalities. Isobel shares how folic acid supplementation can reduce the risk of cleft palate by 48% and the ethical considerations surrounding the treatment of cleft puppies at birth.

Explore the nuances of fading puppy syndrome whilst gaining insight into the challenges of supplement feeding and learn about the importance of hydration over milk feed. Practical tips for managing water-to-milk ratios and feeding quantities will also be included. The complexities of caring for large litters, including rotation strategies, will also be discussed.

Discover our favourite milk formulas and feeding methods, from old-school methods to innovative tools like miracle nipples and silicone puppy feeders. Learn why reinvesting in new equipment and paying attention to detail is crucial for success.

Whether you're a seasoned breeder or a newcomer to puppy care, this episode of Breeders Brew is filled with invaluable insights and practical advice to help you navigate the challenges of raising healthy, happy puppies from the beginning.

📌 Click to read the Show Notes

📌 Grab your FREE accompanying Breeders Brew Critical Care Sheet.

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Transcript

Sara: 0:03

Welcome to the Breeders Brew, the dog breeding podcast hosted by myself, Sara, the canine family planner,

Isobel: 0:09

and me, Isobel, the canine nutrition coach.

Sara: 0:12

We're promoting responsible breeding by unpicking the minefield of breeding myths and methods for owners wishing to expand their whelping wisdom. So in this episode, we will take a look at the most common birth defects in puppies, what they might be, what might cause them, and ultimately, why you might have to hand feed a puppy. Unfortunately, supplement feeding is something you may not be able to avoid as a breeder, but we will cover the most common methods of hand feeding. Again, it's another hot topic that we see online, isn't it Isobel, of people asking about supplement feeding, how best they should do it, what's the best method. I think first off, it's great that there is whoever set up the orphan puppies page for people where they've sadly lost a bitch or the bitch isn't in good enough condition to be feeding the pups that there's these amazing earth angels, I guess they're called, aren't they? Four legs and two legs where they help. Breeders in need that are looking for a mum for some pups, which I think is absolutely amazing. If you're left in a bit of a sticky situation, that is always an option. When I first started breeding, there wasn't a network like that, where you could reach out to people and say, I'm having problems with this puppy. Somebody help me. So it was pretty much, you dealt with the problem as much as you could yourself. And that would be if mum's not feeding the pup, why not? And if she. can't or won't, then how are you going to get involved as a proactive breeder to help the situation, help the pup? So I think first off, we just need to cover the signs of a puppy being unwell or not right. And I know I've bleated on in other episodes about the milestones, like three days, 10 days, three weeks. If a puppy is to pass within the first three days, all seem unwell, not latching on, not feeding right, not maintaining body temperature. Yeah. Sometimes they're just born a bit scrawny or a bit small. They just don't look like they're going to thrive. And I never liked to say runt of litters. I don't necessarily believe. Obviously you can get puppies that just haven't had the best start in life. And it might be where they've, Were positioned in the horns. They haven't actually implanted well enough. The pass over from the placenta hasn't been as good as the rest of the puppy. So they've just started off in a slightly more negative position than some of the other pups in the litter. But I very rarely call them runts cause yeah, I don't, I like to treat all puppies the same. But sometimes there could be quite an obvious difference from birth that some of the pups aren't thriving as much as the others. It might be congenital, it could be internal, which means it's going to be quite hard to fix. You are limited with newborn pups with what you can do. Keep them warm, feed them, and if they need some form of medication that they're given it. We've talked about antibiotics already and how that can, it causes a bit of a vicious cycle because it's going to impact the immune system, it's going to impact their digestive system. So I totally get it, aqua drops exist like a liquid form of antibiotic, but becoming a bit more conservative with how Much they dish out antibiotics full stop, but even more so with newborn pups, because I think they'd know the vicious cycle that then can unfold from doing so. And ultimately, if it's something more serious that is organ related, antibiotics aren't going to generally fix that anyway. To a degree, sometimes it's a little bit of a waiting game. Obviously, nobody wants to see a puppy suffer. And there are apparent abnormalities that you can see from birth, such as cleft palates, hair, lips. So if the pups are born by C section, generally a vet will check for cleft palates and hair lips. If you're doing a whelp at home, you need to check yourself. You need to actually check the roof of the mouth. Are there any gaps? Can you see and you need to check right back as well as far back all the way to the front. Is the mouth fully formed? Are there any gaps in any, it can be in a straight line, but it can be across the palate at the back as well. There are ways to reduce abnormalities such as cleft palate. So I don't know, Isobelle, with the...

Isobel: 4:33

I would love to jump in now. I don't understand why it's not a more talked about topic. As in humans, it is absolutely a given that any woman trying to conceive or in early stages of pregnancy, obviously planned pregnancy, will take a folic acid supplement. Folic acid is so imperative to early neural development. So that's early sort of early stage embryo development that actually our UK government literally add folic acid to our flour production in the UK. So that's sort of the milling process behind wheat flour and things like that. The government actually supplement with folic acid so that naturally Us all as humans are being supplemented with folic acid every time we buy UK milled flour or a product that's been made with UK milled flour. The reason being is because so many of UK human pregnancies are unplanned, therefore what? If these women are not taking a folic acid supplement, it increases the risk of neural tube defects and cleft palates, even in humans, significantly. The fact that our government are going to such lengths to supplement us should be a pretty sure sign that folic acid's actually really important.

Sara: 5:47

I somehow knew that, but I don't know how or why I knew that.

Isobel: 5:50

I know why. Because we had this conversation.

Sara: 5:53

No! No, no, I didn't! I didn't! I didn't! Oh, you knew before? Back in school, or maybe alevel biology or something, but I knew that that was a thing. I literally don't know how I know. Probably some random documentary that I watched.

Isobel: 6:05

Yeah, it could be.

Sara: 6:07

I am for one of those.

Isobel: 6:08

You love a good documentary.

Sara: 6:10

Yeah. So when you said it to me, I'm like, yeah, I knew that. That's not, that's not a surprise. But yeah. As you say, some people be shocked that the government have taken those decisions out of their hands and are just getting on and dealing with it because they understand the bigger ramifications of not doing so. So it's crazy. I think it depends what breeds you sit in to how much awareness you have to folic acid. I think a lot of experienced bulldog breeders think some of the bull breeds know too, but maybe less so breeds that fall outside of that, and people new to breeding, if they've not had the conversation, they wouldn't know. So I don't know if you want to explain why for dogs it's important.

Isobel: 6:49

You could have hit the nail on the head there, Sara. I think breeds that are so much more predisposed to forming a cleft palate are probably more aware of how great folic acid is. And I think if you are fortunate enough to have a breed that cleft palates are less common in, it's no wonder that you may not be aware. Of a folic acid supplementation, but essentially any dog can be formed with a cleft palate while they're in the womb. It is just part of the way that the cells replicate in early embryo stages and without boring you all to sleep, it's the early sort of formation of those pups that that determine whether they are going to grow and continue growing in the womb with with a cleft palate. That's why folic acid supplementation is so important because it. early stages of pregnancy that it makes such a huge difference to. I think the reason why it's, it's potentially not as known about in other breeds is, is purely just probably conversation and awareness. I think that that's why, but it's not just bulldogs. I know, sorry, you mentioned, obviously you've got bulldogs. They are a breed that is more prone to cleft palates and neural tube defects. Any Brachycephalic breed sort of falls into that category of highest risk of sort of being born with a cleft. So anyone that has. a flat faced breed. I would absolutely recommend as standard, if you are planning to breed your bitch from day one of season or minimum from day of breeding, she needs to go on folic acid because correct supplementation with folic acid actually reduces the chance of a cleft palate puppy by nearly a half. The statistic is 48 percent is how hard it actually reduces the chance. To me, if you can reduce anything in life by nearly a half, I mean, everyone would be doing it, wouldn't they? It's a crazy statistic, really. Day one of season or day of mating, pop your girl on folic acid. It is such a simple change to be making to her diet, such an easy supplement to give. In my opinion, there's no excuse. You literally could be saving a puppy's life because if you can reduce the chance of that puppy being born with a cleft palate by 48%. If that's a severe cleft palate or a neural tube defect, you could be looking at having to unfortunately put that pup to sleep at birth if they are completely unable to feed and even tube feeding is unlikely to pull them through or it's a neural tube defect, just spinal bifida or something like that, then Absolutely. It's you literally saving a life by supplementing with folic acid in my opinion.

Sara: 9:09

Yeah. For the cost of what it is, when you make that comparable to saving one puppy, you know, it's insignificant. So why would you not not spend that money for what it is? I must admit, since I've been given decent folic acid amounts and It varies depending on the breed of how much folic acid you would give my, in the scheme of things, my cleft palate pups have been tiny. I am a little bit savage on my opinions of what you do with cleft palates. You can hand rear a pup through, and I know people that have done that and the hats off to them, like the scale of. Actually, the milk feeding is generally the easy bit. It's actually, once you're trying to transition them onto food, it becomes quite difficult and I know people have to actually hand feed kibble, like literally piece by piece, which that amount of attention on one part, I think is phenomenal and hats off to them. But what I worry about is even if you get the puppy through to that point, you know, that potentially you've got surgery coming up, you've got to be willing to keep that pup as a breeder, or you need to find a suitable home, someone that's happy to take on a puppy with those type of issues. If the surgery doesn't fully do the job that it needs to, or still leaves some TLC, high level care that's needed, I think they're going to be more susceptible to certain conditions that are sort of ear, eyes, nose, and throat, which with ball breeds is always a thing anyway. And I just always worry about that dog falling into a breeding pool. Someone actually treats the dog, fixes the dog, and then they then breed from the dog, which is That obviously you're, you should never do that to compound the problem and just cause a bigger problem. So I'm quite stockman in my approach to cleft palates and my vets pretty much know if we get one, we put to sleep and that's it, I'm not putting a pup through that, but I know again, people are very different values and opinions on that. And that's great. It's down to them and all the rest of it. But to me as a breeder, I'm the gatekeeper for the quality of dogs that I produce that have my kennel name on, and that's just one gate that I firmly keep shut. I just don't want people taking on puppies. And I don't even know where you stand from an assurance point of view when it's something congenital, insurable, and all that kind of stuff. As breeders, we are programmed to, we want every puppy to survive. We just feel that if they don't, we've done a bad job and that's not the case at all. I think you have to step back and look at the bigger picture of your kennel, your dogs, your reputation, the breed as a whole. So I just think it's not a black and white.

Isobel: 11:45

It's not, absolutely. And as you mentioned there, the, the turmoil and difficulty of raising a puppy with a clef, if you've been through it, or you've known someone that's been through it, you absolutely would be supplementing with folic acid because it is one of those that when you've seen it firsthand, it's such a shame. Nearly half of all cleft palate puppies are avoidable. And that's an insane statistic. So supplement with folic acid, do it right. Don't cut corners because at the end of the day, it's the difference between a pup being born viable and potentially unviable. It is different for different breeds. I've got miniature Dachshunds, as, as you probably already know by this point of the podcast series, so my breeds are actually at an elevated risk compared to other breeds of dog. Not as high risk as the bulldogs, for example, however, they are still elevated. And I think interestingly, not a lot of breeders realise that. I don't know why in, in, in the Dachshund breed where maybe they've been lucky, as we've said before, a lot of it seems to boil down to Personal experience is one of those things. Oh, well, it's not happened to me. So I won't worry about it kind of thing. But if you have got a breed that is slightly elevated, again, it's even more of a reason. So other breeds are in that category, which always surprise people, I think, is Beagles, Cocker Spaniels, the Brittany, the Great Pyrenean Mountain Dog, Miniature Schnauzers, Golden Retrievers, and Nova Scotias. It is quite an interesting pool of breeds there. Doesn't seem to necessarily be a, be a link between them, but, but they all do fall in that category of elevated risk. So there are different sort of recommended dosages depending on which category your breed fall into. So I would pay attention to that. If you do want more advice, there's a load of free advice on my website so that you can work out which, which category your dog is in and supplement correctly. So I would recommend you head over there if you're, if you're planning a litter, caninenutritioncoach. co. uk just to make sure that you are armed with the information you need, not. All folic acid is not created equal. The dosage is really important depending on which form. That the folic acid is provided in, it changes the quantity that your dog is actually receiving. If you've caught the other episode where we touch on calcium, it's a very similar discussion. So just make sure that you are buying a folic acid that actually contains the amount of folic acid per capsule your dog needs. Because there's no point you going out and going, Oh, well, I've grabbed one from a high street chemist. It looks like the right dosage or quantity. And actually that dosage is per five capsules, for example, which, you know. isn't then going to be achievable if you need to be giving five times that amount. You're not going to be giving five, 25 capsules a day to your dog, are you? So just a note of caution there, make sure that you're buying the correct folic acid for your dog and that it isn't laden with fillers, because if you find a brand that has a high quantity of filler, the chances are the amount of folic acid in that capsule will also be less. And not all fillers are dog safe. If you buy a human folic acid, the chances are that that formulation is safe for humans and not dogs. So please be careful if you want to cut all the research out, you can head to my website and obviously I stock it there with dog safe, dog safe formulas and in the correct quantities.

Sara: 14:53

Yeah, I think quantities is the big one when it comes to folic acid because I think Because for the reason you said, humans take it, it's widely available sitting on a supermarket shelf. So most people just think, I'll just pick up a couple of bottles. Yeah, and I do the job. And even when I last looked for the correct dosage for a bulldog, and this is not even taking into account what you've just said about, dilution rates, concentration rates, fillers, that kind of stuff. Even for me, just looking at the dosage on the bottle to what I knew they should have, they were meant to be having like 12 to 14 tablets a day. And then it's not even economically sensible to be buying that many when you could just go and buy a dog specific product.

Isobel: 15:32

It makes you wonder what else is in that capsule as well. If you need to be giving 14 to get the right, the right quantity, it just sort of shows how watered down the actual folic acid is in, in that tablet. So it's quite crazy really. When it comes to folic acid, that's definitely a product, though it's easily accessible, make sure you're buying it from a good source and say concentrations are correct, because it's actually really important.

Sara: 15:56

Otherwise, ultimately you end up saying, oh yeah, I give folic acid and I still got cleft palate.

Isobel: 16:00

Yeah, no, you got cleft palate because you were giving. Sort of a 20th of the amount that you should have been given. So that 48 percent statistic, you reduce the chance of cleft palate by 48%. That's based on correct folic acid supplementation.

Sara: 16:16

Yeah. We've put a sort of circle around that in regards to, cause we're just talking about newborn pups. You'll see abnormalities. Any open wounds on a puppy, I would say, especially down the spine, head, that doesn't look like a bite wound because of mum opening a sack or something, that's definitely a referred to vets kind of job. The one I see online a lot is back to front feet and that is not a put down job. That, that is just, there wasn't enough space and I've just grown in a bit of a weird way. Equally, you'll see, like, bulldogs are very square headed and, like, they can be born with, no different to babies, like, long, funny shaped cone heads, and this, they just have to grow in the space that they've got, and if it happens to be a bit of a quirky position, that's what they've done. Back to front feet will always come around. So please don't ever, and I've known people have a C section and the vet said, Oh, this one's dodgy. And they've put that puppy down and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. So please, until a puppy is up and walking, you don't need to worry about that. And they literally do just turn around, especially on feeds once they learn that they need a bit of traction. So don't ever do that with your back to front feet. Potentially you're going to get any breed of any puppy. Have a slight birth defect and no one knows why they say, was it, has it happened? Was it not? Is it environmental? Are there pesticides in like the field? Like you're never going to be able to answer those questions. Can't think of any of any other obvious.

Isobel: 17:50

I did assist a breeder recently, actually. I did assist a breeder miniature dachshund litter, actually. And she was very concerned at birth defects. A couple of, I think it was a little four or five off the top of my head. Two had severely kinked tails to the point where it was sort of a 90 degree kink. And she was really worried about what to do. Goes without saying that Tails are not imperative for life. So I potentially, you know, would look at the breeding pairing, and I wouldn't necessarily repeat it in that instance. I would also be relaying that information to the stud owner, arming them with that information. The stud owner can ensure that the stud isn't kicking out loads of pups with kinked tails. But it's not, it's, you know, it's not a life threatening. condition and I had to reassure her that was the case. Those pups all went on to find lovely homes and she was very happy with the outcome. But things like that crop up as well. Fortunately, I've not, I've not had that myself.

Sara: 18:42

Yeah, kinked tails is not life limited, is it? No, no. Not nice to look at. It's not to the breed standard, but ultimately, worst case, you're gonna end up having to dock a tail if it was pointing in whatever direction wrong and it is what it is. And I'm sure some people would prefer that. You never know these days. Any, any excuse. My only other thing to add was maybe I've seen a lot of pups with pussy eyes, a puppy born with eyes open generally, Hints at possible neurological issues. And that there's probably more going on than just the fact that a pup's born with his eyes open. So that's a vet job, but a pup, they can sometimes get infected eyes and they start swelling up. Normally it's just warm water and bathe it and slowly massage to the corner of the eye. Then you'll be able to just like massage to pass out.

Isobel: 19:31

I have seen a pup in a Facebook group actually lose an eye due to that, where the breeder didn't pick up it straight away. Yeah. If you if you're in a couple of the whelping groups, it is something I've seen pop up and they're quite a lot more recently for some reason.

Sara: 19:43

I've heard of whole litters get it as well, which is interesting. Really weird.

Isobel: 19:47

Must be, I don't know, it could, makes you wonder if is, is it husbandry in the wiling box? Maybe there's sort of germs are in and around or it could just be, I dunno, larger, larger bulb size maybe, I don't know. But yeah, I did see a pup in, in one of those sort of whelping groups, actually the report back was pup lost the eye because I think they didn't relieve the pressure soon enough.

Sara: 20:08

Yeah.

Isobel: 20:08

Unfortunately it caused damage to the, to the actual eye itself where the infection took hold or whatever. But again, this is why it's so important to be doing daily observations, even if mum is absolutely fantastic. You don't even need to even look in the pen. She's doing such a good job. You should be. And as part of my daily checks, I'm obviously checking pups. I'm not just weighing them. I'm sort of checking them over nose to tail. Is everything in the right place? Does the pup look healthy? Is it lively, warm? Are its eyes okay? I've fortunately, I've never had an eye problem, but it is something you should be conscious of.

Sara: 20:39

It's definitely got a terminology because I think it's quite a, A fairly common thing in the scheme of things, it makes me wonder if maybe it's like mama, she's cleaning pups, licking bums and then licking heads. And then you get a bit of a bacteria buildup and then yeah, it causes a bit of a problem. It's one of those pup doesn't need to be put to sleep. We can deal with it. And hopefully 99 percent of the time it's all fully recovered. Yeah. If you catch it quick, like with everything we say, proactivity, it has its. Serious benefits and I'm sure something like that is absolutely the case moving on to fading puppy syndrome. Now, this is just an umbrella term basically of pups not well, it's declining in health, it's going downhill and it could be for. Very many things. And so it sort of just gets put under a fading puppy syndrome. Some people get a bit worried. Is it just one puppy? Is it going to spread to the entire litter? Quite concerning. If you're ever at that point, I've had a litter that my hardest litter to ever rear. Well, I think they had some kind of, I don't know whether it was canine herpes or whatever, but they just weren't born right. They never gained weight, but they just weren't right. So I had to turn up the heat of the incubator to help them maintain temperature because they weren't holding their own temperature. But obviously in doing that, I then was dehydrating them because they were in a really. or environment. So then I had to make sure that I supplement feeded them to make sure they stayed hydrated. At the same time we did give those antibiotics because we just knew they weren't right. They were declining in health and there was no apparent obvious reason as to why. So then they were having the antibiotics, so we're hoping the antibiotics is going to fix the problem. I'm just keeping them warm enough and giving them enough fluids to make sure that we can ride this out. And when I mean ride this out, at three weeks old is when they hit their birth weight. That's crazy.

Isobel: 22:43

That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, hats off to you there because I think there's a lot of readers that might have hit the rock of give up by that point. That's incredible. 21 days of no sleep. Wow.

Sara: 22:54

Yeah, that was hard, hard work. I mean, these pups must have just had some natural fight in them. But I remember I was so proud, like, they were like these little wind up toys. They were tiny. I'm just so proud that they're alive. And I remember posting a picture on Facebook. Yeah. And someone's like, Oh, so how premature were they? No, they weren't. They weren't premature at all. We've just been to hell and back. And this is them now. Just remember this really smug like, Oh, poor you. Needless to say, they were behind. Obviously I did my best to try and get them up to speed once they're up. And development wise, they were fine, but they were small puppies. So I did run a majority of them on an extra two weeks, which is almost like I just lost them. Yeah, these two weeks, three weeks of time and I had to gain that back. But they all went on to live healthy, happy lives. They're still going now, and they all made full adult weight as well, so none of them were Oh, that's interesting. Are stunted really interesting. In fact, some of the, some two of the boys are big. I was like, wow, your DNA is your DNA, regardless of your start off in life. Actually, we got there in the end, but I've never had such a difficult litter. And the only way it was possible, I had to heat them up. So then I had to hydrate them. They weren't even strong enough to, to feed. So then I had to supplement feed them, which is. Where I was going with this is what methods have we got available for supplement feeding? Now, the key thing to remember when you decide supplement feeding is your only option. So the puppy's too lethargic to actually feed or they're just not interested in feeding. Feeding itself isn't going to fix something. It will give them an energy boost. If I don't know, they've gone into a slumber, actually. I did have in that litter, a really weird puppy that kept on going stiff. Again, there's a name for this. It escapes me. And anyway, I literally looked in the incubator and he was stiff. I thought he was dead. He was stiff. Oh no, rubbed him, rubbed him, rubbed him. And he sort of took a gasp of breath and he softened all up and he was fine again. Weird. Did a feed, put him back. Next time I went in there, he was stiff again. And I remember saying, I had to go out and my mum was doing a feed. And I remember saying to her. If that pup goes there, like stare for dies, it's not your, it's not your fault, don't worry about it because I've left you with this puppy. He's been really dodgy. And I just happened to speak to a friend and they said, Oh, Add some extra sugar into his milk, okay, add some extra sugar in and he never had that problem again and I couldn't believe it because I thought, well, like this is a puppy formula that I've given him so it's got everything in, like he needs, but obviously, and he was the only pup in the litter that it happened to. So I've never had that before, but if anyone ever has that, just try adding extra sugar in to the milk and see if that helps you. But the reason I say that is when you're supplement feeding puppies, generally I don't say go in at a full let's supplement feed with a hundred percent milk because that puppy's not well for a reason. So you just loading it full of food, loading it full of food isn't going to help. It's actually more important that the puppy's hydrated than is that it has milk as a. as a meal. So typically, when you're first starting to supplement feed, I would go in, I used to use LifeAid because that was the product that was around. OralAid, I think now would be acceptable that people use. Correct me if I'm wrong as well, because I don't quite sure what other products are available. But basically, water, but water with some essential electrolytes, minerals that actually help if the body is low in something, you're putting that in so it can actually carry on its metabolism and process as a body. I've always just used liquid life aid. whatever the dilution rate was on the back of the packet. And I would start off initially with a few feeds with just fluid. And then if I was happy with the puppy and how they're progressing, I do a ratio of 25 percent milk, 75 percent fluid, then 50 50, then 75 25. I very rarely go to 100 percent milk. Supplement fed, because I just, you end up just clogging a puppy up. It's almost like if you're not well, putting a load of food in that they can't digest, isn't going to fix the problem. And then now you've got, you've got a bloated puppy that can't digest food that also feels really bad. So I just putting that out there, start off with a low level dilution and slowly build up as the puppy seems to be improving in health.

Isobel: 27:39

It's a great point you've made there because I think a lot of the Facebooks, etc, it's generally just, yeah, yeah, just give them milk, just supplement feed them, grab a, whatever message you're going to do and crack on. And not many people seem to recommend sort of this rehydration mixture and, and tailoring the dilution rate specifically to that purpose. Okay. So I think that's an absolute chunk of gold to that, that piece of information.

Sara: 28:06

Good. Don't go in all guns blazing with your 20 ml syringe. I think, yeah, we're going to get all 20 ml in a bottle of it. Yeah. The puppy's going to take all of this. Start off with little and often. So even if you just did a meal, two meal, I'd be happy with that. Just literally start off with little and often. I had a quick look because I have written a book and I needed to double check and we have double, triple checked. But I wrote that I would give no more than one mil per ounce body weight per feed. Ounce of body weight is actually 28 grams. So one mil per 28 grams of body weight. So typically a bulldog would be having, and I said no more than, so that doesn't mean give that all. If they take all that all it's fine, but if it's half a quarter equally, that's but that would mean generally. An average bulldog puppy would be 8-10 ml. We said a little dachshund pup we worked out as 4-6 ml. But like we said, that's just, that's the upper end of, if you've got a sickly puppy whacking in tons of, of yeah, milk isn't going to help. Hydration is more important and little and often is more important. And you'll know, cause if you're toileting, you'll be able to see. How much have you put in to how much is coming out to how hydrated that puppy then becomes or not. So there's just some benchmarks, but less is always better. When you start off, just don't engorge the puppy and get obsessed that, Oh my God, it hasn't fed for four feeds. So now I'm going to give it four feet worth of fluid or milk or anything. You're not going to solve any problems doing that. So yeah, I just wanted to make that one clear.

Isobel: 29:46

So out of interest, we're talking about formula milk at this point and supplement feeding. What is your formula milk of choice? I know every breeder seems to have their preferences, but why not? Let's talk about that.

Sara: 29:57

I like. Royal Canin Pro Tec and Royal Canin Baby Dog, but I would always, if, if I'm ordering in something on standby, which I recommend everybody does. Yeah, it's never really wasted because at worst case you can mix it into puppy food, even once weaned as powder. Don't make it into a milk because people get obsessed with this. Goat's milk sloshing around and all that kind of stuff. And you'll hear my thoughts on that on the one of the other podcasts, but you can still, it's still calories in a packet effectively. So you can still mix the powder in dry into food to use it up. So it's never really wasted. So I always just ordering a pro tech, the Royal Canin pro tech. I don't, yeah, there's ones I don't like that I wouldn't use. I went on a. Like puppy rearing seminar years and years and years ago. And the lady there said, like, if you ever haven't got milk and you need some, she just recommended carnation milks. He's like, just go 24 hour shop, get some carnation milk, dilute it down. Something's better than nothing. I'm not quite sure nowadays that would stand true because I imagine the sugar content is out of date. Absolutely insane in that. And obviously she did say to dilute it down, but now it just makes me wonder, are you just, it was that just the human psyche thinking I need to give milk. This is a form of milk.

Isobel: 31:19

Yeah. And again, it's about like we're saying sugar energy. If you've got a failing part, they need some form of energy. I get the logic behind it, but this is where again, proactivity is a breeder. No plug here. I'm not Royal Canon fan for everything. Just in case I need it, there's always a box of Protech in my cupboard if I, if I've got a litter due because I'd rather have it and not need it and waste that 30, 40 or quid, whatever it is, whatever it costs these days. I'd rather have it and waste it than find myself needing to go to a 24 hour petrol station to buy carnation milk for a failing puppy. No chance. Sorry.

Sara: 31:59

And to be fair, I think is there the only company that provide you with bottles? I dunno, I've never,

Isobel: 32:06

I've never used the bottles that have been provided. Oh. I've got to say, so I dunno, I buy the ProTech because it's got the colostrum formula. Yeah. It's, it's a more well-rounded formula if a puppy goes downhill in the early days, I know. It's a more comprehensive formula. So, and again, if essentially it's not really do any harm, giving an older puppy the ProTech formula, and if it is designed for newborns, because essentially it's just a more wholesome, more holistic formula. So,

Sara: 32:31

yeah. And like I said, it's never wasted. easy way to get calories into a slightly underweight puppy. Yeah. My little tip there. However, they're fed as well. It doesn't matter how they're fed. You can always add a little bit of powder in mix in job done. And so I mentioned about the bottles because I'm going to come on to the methods of supplement feeding. Now, traditionally bottles would be the main method that people of yesteryear have. Become accustomed to. It was originally a nightmare. I remember you used to get these silly little toy in the pet shop, these silly little toy sort of reptile looking bottles that just weren't suitable. You had to make your own hole in the end and all this kind of stuff. And it was all just typically you'd always make the hole too big. And then you end up drowning this puppy and aspirating it and all sorts. So I quite liked the fact that when Royal Canning said, Hey, we chucked in a load of bottles, they got straight and you could buy human ones and it'd be these orthodontic ones with these bulbs at the end that puppy doesn't like and all this kind of stuff. So I have used the Royal Canning bottles. And I think if used a bottle correctly, then. for most breeds, they would actually be perfectly fine. Or I've never used anything more than the slow tea. Obviously you've got to make sure bottle feeding that there's no air in it. Just be careful how greedy a puppy gets with it is one of those. You have to keep taking it out, then keep taking it out. If that's your backup kit and that's all you've got, that's an amazing place to start. There's tons of methods sort of popped over the last, I reckon 10 years or so. We see the. Sponge method where some people ram a syringe into a sponge and the puppy sucks it up.

Isobel: 34:10

Make up sponge, a little, little, little wedge. Yeah.

Sara: 34:13

Yeah. Or you see some people dripping it down the sponge and the pup's rolling it.

Isobel: 34:17

It's a clever concept. It's, it's somewhat a transition on from, I feel, the miracle nipple that was really popular. Again, obviously my breeder, Probably much more. Again, my breed are obviously a lot smaller than yours, Sara. So I think maybe one of the reasons why, touch wood, we've not really ever had to supplement feed, but I would imagine that the bottles that would come from a standard kit would be far too large for my breed. So in my whelping kit somewhere, I'm sure we've got some Miracle Nipples kicking about that are obviously great for smaller breeds. And they've been about forever. So I wonder if this sponge feeding is sort of an evolution of the old miracle nipple that is people are cutting the wedge to a similar sort of shape, size to mum's nipple, and I guess it's a conversion of that,

Sara: 34:59

but even the miracle syringes, they do all sizes now. Don't they, with all like they, cause I funny enough. My litter from hell that I talked about, so they were tube fed, which we'll come on to once they've got fight, I feel bad tube feeding a puppy because I'm like, no, they want to feed. So let's let them feed. So I actually transitioned them from tube onto the miracle syringe, but it got to the point one of them was so strong. It was like, they just chugged it. It's so funny. I've got a video. Maybe it's not. And you just see the plunger go down, down, down, down. So they're literally just chugging milk. I was like, these pups are good now. I sure have got a really good video of a puppy doing it. So yeah, I have, I went You have to stick it in the

Isobel: 35:39

Facebook group out of interest for those that are in the Facebook community because they'll have a giggle now after you saying that.

Sara: 35:46

But yeah, he just used to chug it down, job done. I thought, well, he's obviously able to take that because that's him demanding that amount from what he wanted.

Isobel: 35:53

Yeah. So for those people that don't know then, The miracle nipple is attached to a syringe. So it's different to the bottle feeding. It's not a nipple that you attach to a bottle, which is why I said similar to the sponge feeding, because the sponge method is a sponge attached to a syringe. The benefit in some respects to using a syringe is obviously they are graduated. So, you know, if you load up that syringe with X mil of milk, it does give you a far more transparent. reading for your observations as to what that puppy has consumed. So personally, my preference would be a syringe based feeding method as opposed to a bottle because I've got such a small breed. I would quite like to know what that puppy has consumed in that feed. For me, that's a good sort of pros cons bottle versus a syringe method. Pup can still have a sensation of the suckling and whatnot, particularly if you go down the route of a sponge or miracle nipple in my opinion. So that would be my choice.

Sara: 36:47

Yeah. And you're totally right in a bottle. You need more volume to get an idea of the measure. You get bubbles all interfere with it as well. So then you don't really know how much you've actually got. And also you need a bigger quantity of milk in a bottle where syringe you just need a syringe worth. Yeah. I totally agree the benefits of, of a miracle syringe or if people want to do the sponge feeding just touch on also back in the day. And I've heard people do this where they've actually drop her fed. a puppy where they've got like a pipette and they've literally done one dropper at a time, which again shows phenomenal patience. Her litter two, they were hand reared because mum had, and I only remember this recently, a conversation we had, she had a litter at three and then it took us another three years to get a second litter out of her. And then it transpired on C section that she actually suspected lungworm, which has blood clotting issues. So she had to be kept in. So then I hand reared these two puppies, but I remember he got to such a size that he used to just sit on the arm of the sofa and look at me and I'd just be perpetually, he was like fully sad. I mean, and Yeah, I just, surely by now you could just go and lick out of a bowl, whatever. He's like, no, I like it this way.

Isobel: 38:03

I'm going to pretend to be a baby bird. Thank you very much.

Sara: 38:05

Yeah, it's exactly what he done. And I just used to sit, he used to just sit on the sofa because it was level topped on the arm. And I just used to sit there, pet it and he was done. I have never petted a dog since then, a puppy since then, because of all these other great methods. But and it was worth doing because it was Phenomenal dog. So he is worth the time and some, or maybe that's why he was a phenomenal dog because of that TLC that he got. So pipetting is an option or dropper feeding is not one that I've done for time. Also got the silicone puppy feeders nowadays. They're like the newest thing on the market. There's a great company in France that makes them. And then obviously, typically they've been ripped off by all the other places that have tried to copy them though. I believe their products are far superior.

Isobel: 38:53

I have, I've also heard the same, I have to say from the original manufacturer. It does also worry me because obviously the certain brands of sort of drop shipping companies seem to have ripped off these plastic feeders. And it worries me. From a manufacturing perspective, if they can make these so cheaply, what are they actually made from? And for those of you that, you know, you've, you've been doing your research and you've heard about it in the news a lot recently about microplastics, certain forms of, you know, BPA free bottles and all of these kinds of things. You don't know what product that feeder is made from and all sorts could be passing through to pups. Cutting corners and jumping for a cheap alternative may do damage. So. Yeah. A wider caution there.

Sara: 39:35

Totally agree. And yeah, I think that the, the original specs are so good. Yeah. I just think they're probably well worth the investment. I have known people use them just for when they've got large litters and so not all pups are trying to feed off mum, that they can actually, while they're doing a puppy feed, they can put a few onto that feeder and give, just give mum a bit of a rest on a supply and demand. And that kind of thing. So yeah, if you've got a really big, and I'm talking double numbers, litters. It's probably worth always just having one in your cupboard for that instance alone, just to take a bit of pressure off mum and what she needs to produce going forward. So yeah, I've known that. I've also known them, some people with big litters, they literally will actually half the litter. Talked about certain only breeds using puppy boxes, but actually I've known where it's been a big litter. They will put half the litter in a puppy box, half in with mum and they keep rotating them around. Again, it's puppy management, making sure. All pups have the same equal opportunity, but not a bad thing to consider if you have a big litter because otherwise it's always going to be the same strong, big, greedy pups, nuzzling in and then some of the ones that need it, push back, push back a little. Yeah, absolutely. So then my final feeding method is tube feeding. And this is the one that everybody gets super scared about, even though I think it's probably the one, one of the safest ways to feed a puppy because the problem you've got with all the other methods that we've mentioned previously, there's, they can aspirate. There's a, there's a real risk, especially like with bottle feeding and some breeds and how their muzzle is actually formed. They do feed slightly different, excessive milk at a wrong angle can cause them to ingest fluid in the wrong way. And then you're going to end up with breathing issues that puppy's going to start to fail unless it's treated. And even if it's treated, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to fix the problem, which also brings me on to oxygen, oxygen concentrators and people, oxygen therapy for newborn puppies, that kind of thing, slow puppies. I think you just have to be very careful about. The use of oxygen, because I, it never fixes anything. You won't fix anything with oxygen. It will allay some of the symptoms and it will make a puppy more comfortable, but there's still an underlying problem you need to fix. And also you have to be careful because if you get oxygen concentrations wrong, then you could potentially do more damage than good. It's great that we have that functionality or there's that option available that equipment and oxygen concentrators basically just draw oxygen out of the air, increase the concentration for it to be directed wherever it needs to be directed rather than having oxygen tanks in your house and all this kind of thing. But I think it should be used very carefully. And I'm sure most vets would say to people not to be using it in their home. And obviously it's quite, oxygen is really flammable, isn't it? So there's always warning stickers on it about not smoking around them and that kind of thing. So if you are a smoker in your home, you just need to be a bit careful.

Isobel: 42:43

Well, more to the point, home insurance. That's an interesting one. I'm not sure how well, how kindly they would take to oxygen concentrators being linked to your incubator in your houses, but you know.

Sara: 42:53

So I love the idea of empowering yourself as a breeder. I just think that one should be used very carefully. You might feel that you're fixing a problem, but I don't necessarily feel that you're So going back to tube feeding, so I like to feed him because it's a way of, you know, exactly how much that puppy has had in the most efficient way. They have to expel no energy to get. fed or hydrated. Now there's some key things in regards to tube feeding. You can buy kits online nowadays, which is amazing. Just make sure the tube is a small enough tube for your breed. I would recommend you can buy like bundles and stuff. I'd buy a bundle. So you'd have three different sizes and the accompanying syringes and that kind of thing. The key thing is When you tube feed, a puppy should always be flat, so they're laying on their belly, laying on a hard, flat surface, because if you were to tube feed too much, as long as they're laying flat, they can puke it up basically. Hopefully you're not going to do that, but and to be fair, I have done that and all they did was just sick it up. So I was like, Oh, my bad. Pup was fine. But because I had the puppy laying on the flat, they didn't then just ingest it and it go into their lungs or into the, into somewhere where it shouldn't have done. So it's imperative they're always fed on the flat. Obviously I would always recommend feeding them less, but that doesn't happen. But these things happen. We're only human. Typically the thing that people are most scared about chew feeding is that they're going to whack fluid into that puppy's lungs and they're going to kill them. Now you are tube feeding that puppy for a reason, probably to save its life. So should you ever do that by accident, you should never feel guilty. that that's happened because you are only acting in that puppy's best interest. So I always just put that caveat. However, if you follow these instructions, that won't ever happen, but yeah, well, no, it won't. As long as the measures are right, it won't happen. But that's normally the biggest fear that people have is I'm going to kill this pup because I'm going to put. Fluid in its lungs and I've got the wrong place, but if that does happen, you are only acting in the puppy's best interest and that's a learning curve. It is what it is. When you've decided to tube a puppy, if it's more than one puppy in a litter, you must measure the tube on every single puppy that you are feeding. Don't just assume I'm measuring the tube and that's going to work for all the pups because they're all going to be different body length. You have the tip of the tube and you lay that puppy out flat. That tip is pointed to the last rib of the puppy and you pull it out with tension until the end of the nose or the mouth, basically of the puppy. That is your correct measure. That is stomach to nose. Put a marker, mark it. Sometimes the newer tubes now actually have numbers on, which is amazing. But obviously. Remember the right number for the right puppy if you're doing more than one. But that is the measure. To load up your milk it needs to be warm. So I always have a mug of warm water with the syringe in of milk. You need to put the tube onto the end of the syringe. You need to feed through the milk all the way through. So your tube is pre loaded with milk. Because if you put the tube in then squeeze the milk in, your The air in the tube, you're now squeezing into the puppy's stomach. So make sure it's always preloaded with milk, feed the tube in. And generally I've rested on their tongue and feed it in. And generally puppies will swallow it down. You're not like forcing it in. They will swallow it down. If you get halfway to your marker. So you're like, ah, it stopped and we're here. My marker is still further down here. That's probably where you've gone into the lung. The lungs is always halfway between the stomach and the nose. That's cool. Don't freak out. You just slowly pull it back out. You clean it again, dip it in the warm water that you've got, whatever. And then you do it again. Okay, but if you don't get to that marker, you've gone wrong somewhere, you just pull it out and start again. Only when you've got to the marker, do you decide then, I'm going to push the plunger, slowly, slowly, and generally I do a little bit. Check puppy's reaction. He's good. Do a little bit more, check puppy's reaction, and then just slowly go down to whatever amount you've decided to feed. As I said, always go less rather than more. Let's play it safe. Once it's done, steadily just remove, you literally can just do it one quick swoop, take the tube out. Pup's happy. Give her a little bit of a massage. Are they happy? Have they kept color? Are they going to puke up? No, they're all good. Obviously put them to one side, but monitor them for a little while before you go off and get on with your day. It's that simple.

Isobel: 47:49

Yeah, it's one of those things that until you've got the experience doing it, I understand why it's so terrifying. But like you said, tube feeding isn't a decision to be taken lightly. A puppy will generally always thrive on mum best. But if you are tube feeding or doing it for a reason, you have no choice. If you're getting to the point where you need to tube feed, you have no choice but to tube feed. Go and find Sara's videos on that. Go and learn how to do it. And another thing That people might not realise is tube feeding kits are so cheap. Touch wood. I have not had to tube feed for years. However, there is a tube feeding kit in my whelping box because I would rather have one and not need it. Then get to the point where I go, Oh my goodness, I need a tube feeding kit and I can't get one for 24 hours. I personally would recommend you have one in your whelping kit before pup's before pup's born just in case, because they are so cheap.

Sara: 48:42

Yeah, I mean, I have all the things, so I have the bottles when I order my Protech. I still have Miracle syringes I haven't used. I've got tubes for tube feeding and I've got a silicon feeder, so.

Isobel: 48:54

Great, Sara, so if I get stuck out in the pouring storm, I know where to come.

Sara: 48:58

Yeah, I've got, I've got all the things, so I'm fully loaded up, but ultimately, come on, like, let's be responsible. I think, yeah, if breeding is your bag, Every time you have a litter, you should reinvest some of that funds, whatever little bit of money that you might have made back into buying a key element of something. Keep your dog safe. Yeah, exactly. And sometimes it's like to make your life easier, I have a thousand puppy pens. It's ridiculous. I have Plaztek. I've got puppy pens. I've got lined puppy pens. I've just got every single ones with trays, ones without trays. And then my last litter, I still went and bought the kiddie play pens because that's the thing at the moment. And I was like, actually, that's going to work perfectly in the space that I've got. So let's go and buy that. When I already had loads of other stuff that would have done the job, but I was like, no, because going forward, I'll probably use this again. And now this is another bit of equipment in my toolbox that will serve me at some point in the future. So it's well worth the money, even though I already had six other items that could have done the same thing. And again, I'm such a sucker. They look really good in pictures.

Isobel: 50:07

Sara, the vanity is coming out.

Sara: 50:10

No, like when you've got pups and then a pictures like speaks a thousand words, doesn't it? The attention to detail.

Isobel: 50:18

It is. Well, it's the environment as well. That's, that's what it matters. Yes. Yeah. End of the day. I mean, you could scroll through Pets4Homes or whatever, whatever other platform you choose to have a look at puppies on. And a picture does speak a thousand words. You can tell an awful lot about that puppy's home environment by a couple of photos that are on that advert. So yeah.

Sara: 50:37

Yeah. A thousand percent. Yeah, so I think that's it. I think I've covered everything I wanted to in regards to giving people the heads up on supplement feeding. I did an Instagram live, a very emotional Instagram live now when I look back, but where I tube fed a puppy live on Instagram. So I will share that into the Facebook Breeders Brew community so people can have a look at that. And sadly that puppy didn't make it, but it was, if that was his purpose in life was for me to capture that video to show other breeders how to do it to potentially save their puppy, then, then that's what it was there for. The sad thing is, is that you're doing it at a point where you're stressed and you're concerned and You have these elevated emotions, yeah, and then so it feels like an all or nothing kind of situation, but unfortunately, there's no, you would never chew feed for practice because that's weird. So unfortunately, the only way you get to learn is under that pressurised environment. Rise to the challenge, be prepared for it. And, and we've said other times, it's not a case of if, it's just when. So at some point you will be doing this. Once you've accepted that and got the equipment in, that will put you in a better stead for it, should you need to do it. Yeah. So I think that's it. So this sort of concludes, doesn't it? Series one.

Isobel: 51:57

The breeding basics covered by the Breeders Brew. We've tried to touch on the most topical topics that we see in our daily lives, whether that be personal requests or on the internet, we've tried to cover all the topics that we see asked most often. So hopefully you found this series very valuable and we've covered some poignant. Conversations that have helped you personally. It'd be great to hear your feedback. So if you have got anything to add to the discussion, please do jump into our Breeders Brew Facebook community. It is all about a discussion. That's what breeding should be. We should be empowering each other with the information. That's the whole reason we're doing this podcast is to try and help somebody somewhere learn something new.

Sara: 52:39

Yeah. It's an ongoing discussion. That's the thing, because everything will change around us. And sometimes you can carry on doing what you're doing and that will work for decades. And then sometimes you have to sort of look up and think, no, I've got to change how I'm doing this because technology's caught up with us. There's new advances, there's new equipment, and I'm actually making my life. difficult. We want to give you the best success possible. Also come into the community. We're undecided of when we're dropping series two and what series two would involve. So we'll possibly run a poll and we'd love to hear from you what you want us to cover. So that's another reason for you to get into the community, have your voice heard by like minded readers and yeah, let's see what we can do to, to push you forward and support you as much as possible.

Isobel: 53:28

Absolutely. Look forward to seeing you all over there. Take care and hopefully speak to you all very soon.

Sara: 53:34

Yeah. See you soon.

Isobel: 53:36

Bye. Hey, before you go, head to breedersbrew. com to claim your free critical care sheet and receive your invitation to join us in the Breeders Brew Community Forum.