Q&A: Pregnancy & Puppy Predictor

Welcome back to another Q&A session on The Breeders Brew! 🎉 In this episode, Sara and Isobel dive into some of the most common—and sometimes downright baffling—breeding questions found in online forums. Their goal? To cut through misinformation and provide honest, experience-backed advice to help responsible breeders make the best decisions for their dogs and litters.

This episode is packed with practical guidance, breeder insights, and honest discussions on essential breeding topics. We're covering everything from predicting due dates to concerns about milk supply and the ever-varying cost of C-sections! Topics Covered in This Episode:

✅ Predicting Puppy Due Dates – The importance of tracking ovulation and how to calculate estimated due dates correctly
✅ Pregnancy & Puppy Predictor Tool – A must-have for breeders to stay on top of key milestones
✅ The Reality of Milk Production – Understanding colostrum vs. milk and why some new breeders panic unnecessarily
✅ The Pros and Cons of Temperature Tracking – Is it a reliable indicator for whelping?
✅ Bathing Puppies Before They Leave? – Why some breeders do it and why others (like Sara and Isobel) never do
✅ The Wild Variability of C-Section Costs – Real-world examples from different countries and why breeders must prepare financially
✅ Avoiding Facebook Group Misinformation – How to find trusted advice instead of relying on questionable online responses

🔗 Links Mentioned in This Episode:

📌 Breeders Brew Community on Facebook – Join Here
📩 Submit Questions for the Podcast – podcast@breedersbrew.com
📊 Pregnancy & Puppy Predictor Tool – Buy Here
📑 Show Notes & Resources – www.breedersbrew.com/notes/s2e10

If you’ve ever been stuck scrolling through 50 conflicting Facebook replies to a breeding question, this episode is for you! 🎧🐾 Tune in now, and let’s raise the standards of responsible breeding—together.

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Love the podcast? Get even more as a Brew Crew member → www.breedersbrew.com/brewcrew

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Transcript

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (00:23)
We are back for another one of our Q &A sessions where we will go through and find some people's most pressing desperate questions and weigh in on what we think, give some of our opinions. Hopefully this is beneficial for you guys listening at home. It might be a question that you were about to ask or you had in the back of your mind as well. It goes about saying if you want to get involved in these Q &A sessions, we do absolutely invite you to send your questions in.

either to the Breeders Brew community page on Facebook or via email to podcast@breedersbrew.com. Please feel free to send in any breeding questions and we will hope to get around to them in one of our Q &A sessions next time. All right, so let's get started.

Sara (01:09)
Yeah, let's get started. Right, I've got the first question already fired, ready to go. And it's a short question. So anonymous, anonymous post, don't know why, but it says, my dog tied with a male December 28th. When should she have her pups? I know she got a while, but just trying to be prepared.

So I'm going to do a shameless plug first. Now look, Isobel if only they had their pregnancy puppy predictor. Does it show up on the camera very well.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (01:37)
you

I love these things. These

pregnancy and puppy predictors are stuffed in as many pockets and drawers as I have poo bags to be honest with you. They are the most helpful thing in the world.

Sara (01:56)
So for anyone that can't see because you're listening, which is fair enough, and I've shown it to people, it is a round circular disc with an inner smaller circular disc. On the outside is the months of the year. And on the inside is some of the major milestones that any dog breeder basically needs to know, such as when to start ovulation testing, or at least by.

ovulation, mating, when their embryos implant, when you could book a pregnancy scan, when you could book a progress scan, which they're slightly different because each scan looks for something different development wise at the time, when to adjust the dam's diet, when her due date is, when you can begin weaning puppies, when they should be microchipped, when they're ready to leave given that

the legal age in the UK is eight weeks old, it might be different depending on the breed, but it would only be you keep them longer, they wouldn't be going any less than eight weeks old. And then also when the puppy's maternal immunity expires, because we have a lot of conversations about vaccinations, which is for another time at this place. But the whole point is, I can spin this in a disk to any date, and it's going to automatically give me the milestone date. So

I'm actually gonna plug in. He said the 28th of December. So bear with me. So she was mated on the 28th of December. That tells me if he could be bothered to get her scanned, he can actually get her scanned as of recording in four days time. And I generally say to people, don't worry about anything until you have your scan done, because then you know whether you're dealing with fact or fiction.

whether she is or isn't pregnant. And then you can start panicking if she is pregnant about what you need to do next. So he's obviously feeling that anxiety already because he happens to have made a post anonymously about it on a Facebook group. But what was he, was it the due date he was asking for? Yeah. When should she have her pups? So I'm predicting like Mystic Meg, would be around the, it looks like the 1st March.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (04:16)
time of year to be welcoming a litter in the UK.

Sara (04:18)
That is a nice

time of year. spring, moving into spring is a nice time of year. And the thing that I'm most interested about is when do they leave for their new homes? Which would be the 25th of April. So that's crazy. Like he's first quarter of the year, isn't it? He signed, sealed, delivered well and a bit more to be fair.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (04:29)
Oh dear, I'd expect nothing less.

Sara (04:45)
I highly rate anybody going and purchasing one of these. I'll put a link in the show notes. They're super cheap. They're super convenient. They fit in the palm of your hand. require no technology. Look at this for a hard sell as well. They require no technology. For any technophobes, don't even need to worry about it. It's an absolute bargain, cheapest chips. Go and grab yourself one and you'll be happy for eternity.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (04:59)
Should be taking notes.

Sara (05:12)
All things aside, Isobel.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (05:14)
All things aside,

that's what Sara would comment on that post. She would say, here's a link, get yourself one and it will give you all the answers you need.

Sara (05:17)
But

if I hadn't sent that post, how would you reply, Isobel?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (05:32)
How do I answer this politely? I've been firstly quite surprised that somebody seeking assistance this number of weeks on hadn't already had a to go on Google and Google how long is the dog pregnancy or ask it in whatever words you want, when would my puppies be due or Google would understand and it should give you a pretty good accurate response I would hope for a question as simple as that which is 63 days from ovulation.

So he would only have to go, I say he, the anonymous poster would only have to go on Google to have got that answer. So I mean, if I was feeling really petty, I would go and Google it and send him the Google search link. But I'd probably just, if I was feeling nice, reply 63 days from ovulation. You don't know what ovulation is, so guess it's from mating.

Sara (06:05)
Shey.

Yeah, well, I would say 61 days from mating if you don't know when ovulation is, because generally if they've mated naturally, which we don't know, but if they had mated naturally, a female generally isn't going to be receptive until she's ovulated. we're talking in massive caveats because some bitches will, but I would...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (06:36)
No.

Yeah.

they will.

Sara (06:50)
Yeah, I would always say 61 days from mating if you haven't ovulation tested, 63 from ovulation if you have ovulation tested and you're screwed if you're doing artificial inseminations and not tested because you could be making...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (07:04)
you've got absolutely no idea. which is a question

i personally see online all the time is my girls x number of days do i need to panic yet? whether that's day 57 or day 67 because this is the problem when you don't know ovulation. you are guessing.

when your bitch's due date is because it is 63 days from ovulation and if you've read Book of the Bitch or similar they very often will state a window, am I right in saying Sara that the current literature is 57 days to 65 days is generally accepted but I have actually read in some publications up to 67 is what a lot of vets are taking now which I would never let a female go up to date to 67 if I knew when ovulation was but hey each to their own.

Sara (07:49)
Yeah, if ovulation has been identified, 67 is a ridiculous number in my personal, honest, but right opinion. If you have an ovulation tested, then it's slightly different kettle of fish. But however, if you have ultrasound scanned and they can gestational measures, especially later bone gestational measures, so they can actually do skull measures.

then that should all tie in. So even if you have an ovulation tested, that should still be a very sensible indicator that you should be paying attention to as to what your due date is looking right. I recently read, think, what did I, I told you the stats, but in a book I shall not mention, but it said that, was it 11 % can whelp as early as 57 days and it was 4 %?

I think that went up to the 67 days, which just seems a crazy, it's still a crazy window. And then we have to factor in the litter size because if it's a solo pup, I'm never letting a solo pup going to 67 days, maximum 65 days. And we are sectioning on day 65, just my opinion. But from my experience of what I've seen based on fact,

is that if they go over the 65 days, you're probably gonna be paying for a C-section and you're probably not gonna have a live pup at the end of it.

If ovulation hasn't been detected, then there are other measures that can be used to help guide you as to what your due date is. And we must remember a due date is, estimated due date is exactly that, is estimated. You're always working within a window. So just because even with my clients, I say this is her due date, but she can go over and safely go over because the measure is the same measure.

for a chihuahua as it is for a great Dane and yet they're very different in size and breed type. So that has to be factored into a degree. But I think the important thing about knowing an estimated due date really is, is it falling over a weekend and what vet support have I got if that's the case or a bank holiday or whatever it might be. I think it's really, it's not about that.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (09:52)
Absolutely.

Sara (10:13)
being the day the pups are born, it's the bigger picture of if the puppies land in this window, what support have I got? Should I need it?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (10:21)
Absolutely, it's about being proactive and as we always say, proactivity gets you out of a sticky situation. So be prepared, plan, get your estimated due date, get a scan done by a qualified professional and that will give you a lot of pieces of the puzzle to work with which we always mention and make sure you're at home, be ready. You wouldn't believe the number of people that I speak to and support that say...

I've checked the cameras and she's had a puppy, what do I do? Or they've come down in the morning and half the litter's been born or the whole litter's been born or anywhere in between. So the benefit of a due date is, like you said Sara it gives you a window of when you know you need to be on hand for your girl and make sure you're there to support her and you have the necessary care lined up as well.

Sara (11:08)
I agree. Do you want to know what some of the responses are? I don't think they're too bad. Someone said, you have to keep an eye for 58 days. Keep her away from people and pets. She needs total stress free environment. Need a whelping box ready, oh, I'm saying he, why are we saying he?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (11:11)
Yeah, go for it.

Sara (11:30)
naughty, the anonymous person is saying, just trying to be prepared. So that person is trying to give them some advice on how to be prepared. Someone else has said, if... Yeah, well, we would sit and do that all day long, wouldn't we, Isobel? And we realised we have other stuff to be doing. So we rely on you great people sharing our message with other like-minded breeders. Another response was...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (11:39)
should have sent in the link to the podcast.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Sara (11:57)
She should give birth about 63 days later, which would be around the 1st of March. It could vary slightly. Go and read a book on Amazon, they basically said. Though they started going on about it was a game changer for helping me in my dog. So not... are they?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (12:12)
These are bots that are popping up in all the groups at the moment. This specific

encyclopedia that's being mentioned everywhere, they're not real accounts, so it's really scary. As we say, it's not just the people in these Facebook groups, it's actual bots now that are being employed to spread certain messages or for sales functions. So these are bots that have been set up to generate sales to this specific Amazon product, and it's been done for a purely commercial...

Sara (12:28)
my word.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (12:42)
perspective which is terrifying that that's not even a real person giving their two pence that is a robot

Sara (12:42)
Well, there you go.

my God. that's,

so that's, yeah, I've never factored that into my concerns of these groups, but yeah, let's add spammy bots to it, an advice, which they know nothing about. And then the last one says at day 58 start checking temperature every morning before she's active. If it drops, she's in labour and that can last for a few days.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (12:54)
yeah, add that onto the list

Yep.

What's your views on temperature,

Sara (13:14)
I'm all for people taking temperature. It needs to be taken at the same time twice a day. you need to decide whether that is before and after food, which I kind of think what this guy's hinting at before she's active. So he's saying before she's done anything in her day, do her temperature, but he's only said once a day, so that's not gonna help you. You need to be doing it twice a day, ideally 12 hours apart.

People generally aren't that methodical when it comes to temperature tracking. so realistically, how beneficial is it to somebody? Cause you've got to catch the drop. I mean, he said here, if it drops, she's in labour. Well, no, not on the, not on the drop she isn't. And that can last for a few days.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (13:55)
not strictly true.

No, so what he's giving there is again, that's false information that's being spread because a drop to... On the most basic use of that language, a drop implies that the temperature is decreasing. So as soon as a dog owner sees that temperature decrease, they could take that as gospel. That's not the case. The temperature needs to drop below a specific threshold.

to determine the onset of labour. I have spoken to a lot of people over the years who have seen temperature drops and actually they've been a false drop. Bitches come back up to then only drop again properly 12 to 24 hours later. So it's not a clear cut, when the temperature starts going down.

that means it's game time because that's just not the case.

Sara (14:48)
Yeah, I don't want to discourage people from doing it because I think especially as a beginning or new or novice breeder, it's a nice tool to have to help you identify concerns or issues quickly. So it is the temperature taking needs to carry on past the puppy birth as well. If you're going all in, let's do it properly. But you need to be methodical or systematic in how you do it. And it

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (15:00)
Absolutely.

Yep.

Sara (15:16)
And for that to be realistic, because I mean, most humans wouldn't want to ear temperature twice a day for 14 days, they would get fed up and bored with it. So doing a rectal temperature take on a dog that doesn't understand why you're doing it is just gonna get harder and harder the more you do it. So for that reason, if this is the avenue you decide to go down, please make sure it's a digital thermometer.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (15:28)
Yeah.

Sara (15:44)
please make sure it's a fast read digital thermometer. So it takes 10 seconds to get the temperature, not 30 seconds. And typically you want those fast read ones that I've seen that all have a flexible end to them, which is brilliant because that means you can take the temperature while the bitch is sitting down. You haven't even got a stand up or maneuver over to any particular position.

You can slip it in before she knows about it and then equally have it out before she knows about it. Like 10 seconds, we're done. I think you need to take those things into account and you need to be writing the numbers down so you can plot the decrease. You can see the drop is gonna wave around and do various bits in between. That's totally normal, but you need to be methodical with this approach if that's the approach you want to take, in my opinion.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (16:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's worth

noting here as well. I know you mentioned twice a day there, Sara. But looking back at my temperature charts I've taken over the years, I would have actually missed a few of the temperature drops if I was only doing temperature checks every 12 hours. On the last temperature chart that I can think of, which was from a few years ago, I fortunately, it was a high risk pregnancy, which is why I was doing the temperature tracking alongside other measures to make sure that everything was going okay.

I was actually taking the temperature four times in a 24-hour window in the last few days and that was the only reason I caught the temperature drop when I did otherwise I would have missed it so it is worth saying that even if you didn't see the temperature drop it doesn't mean it hasn't happened and it doesn't mean she isn't about to go into labour as well so I would hate for anyone listening to go great I'll do the temperature tracking

get to day like 63 and go, oh, there's still no temperature drop, we must be fine. Yeah.

Sara (17:31)
Yeah,

for me, yeah, I agree, fill your boots with it. Like the minimum is twice a day, that's what I was coming from. So him saying once a day, I dread to think what you're missing, but yeah, if you're going all in on this, then yeah, you need to keep really accurate records and yeah, probably twice a day isn't close enough. So yeah, I'm all in with, I concur, I agree with you.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (17:41)
Mm.

Wonderful. Glad to be on the same page for a change. That's unlike the old Facebook groups to give a fairly similar answer. Crikey.

Sara (17:58)
hahahaha

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (18:05)
Right, I've got question for you here. I've found that took me all of 10 seconds to find another... I'm being mean. An anonymous poster has said, Mum isn't producing enough milk for her three puppies and some teats are not producing any milk at all when I give them a squeeze. What should I do to help?

Sara (18:09)
You

Okay, so we, yeah, I was gonna say, they're three days old. just rather than me ask, sorry, there's three of them. Sorry, that was me. I knew there was a three in there somewhere. Just couldn't remember where. So there's three puppies. So rather than me ask a thousand questions, just what's the comments asking?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (18:30)
so much to unpick here.

No, we don't know they're three days old. Sorry. Three puppies.

Yep.

Right, let's see if anyone's actually asked any questions. Okay, no, somebody has. Somebody said, how old are the puppies? Answer, one and a half days old.

Sara (18:50)
gonna like be asking questions.

Is the breed covered? Has anyone covered the breed? Let me have a little scroll through.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (19:03)
I'm not laughing.

Nobody's asked what breed the dog is and nobody is asked by what method of action the puppies were born.

Sara (19:15)
Okay, and you doing your detective work? Has this person asked questions before? What's the, what's previous? Okay.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (19:20)
No, absolutely

no previous, no context.

Sara (19:24)
Okay. So my response is, did she say about weight loss? Sorry. What did? No, she just said they're not latching on and there's three of them.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (19:28)
No, no. No, she just

said that mum isn't producing enough milk for the three puppies. When the poster is squeezing the teats, they're not seeing any milk visible.

Sara (19:36)
Okay.

Okay.

Okay, so hopefully we all know by now we're just about to learn about colostrum being what some would say is the first milk. So that is just what did you call I think you called it golden. What did you call it once? Yeah, liquid gold. That was it the liquid gold that's required for newborn puppies for their immune system. Yeah, what else do you want to add to that?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (19:58)
Liquid gold

it's just the most beneficial liquid that mammals can consume, quite frankly.

Sara (20:18)
Yeah, so basically it's not milk, it's colostrum. Some might call it first milk. True milk isn't gonna kick in until typically as a general up to three days. So these puppies are, what'd you say, one, how old were they? One and a half, one and a half days old. So it wouldn't be unusual to expect.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (20:35)
one and a half days old.

Sara (20:43)
your female not to have full milk in when the pups are only one and a half days. There are podcasts where we've talked about how you can increase milk supply, but we haven't even got that far yet. There are the natural things of puppies need to be latched on. They need to stimulate oxytocin. Oxytocin will Or their little squeaky. She's got to understand that she's a mum now.

and her body needs to go into mum mode. And that's not happened in the tiny one and a half days that the little pups have been on earth. So it's fine that she hasn't got milking yet.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (21:23)
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't have articulated the answer any better. That it would be unusual for you to be able to visibly identify milk within the first day of puppies being born. That's the long and short of it. So let's have a look at what some of the other members have posted. So I'm on very short and quick to the point. Give it time.

Sara (21:50)
Good.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (21:52)
Another said I've been worrying about the exact same thing. I'm at my wits end I finally managed to weigh them again and they put a tiny bit on so I'm not going to worry about it anymore and just assume they're fine Okay Another comment we were having We were having the exact same problem last night, but today is much better and we even Asked the vets and they told us to try and stimulate to see if milk was coming out today

Sara (22:07)
interesting approach.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (22:20)
It seems much better.

Somebody has correctly posted, mum won't have milk until about day three. It's colostrum at the moment. So they've answered that very well. Somebody's tried to upsell some sort of supplement and somebody else has suggested giving her fenugreek and goat's milk several times a day. I don't strictly agree with the goat's milk comment, but fenugreek is good for milk production as we've covered in another podcast episode. So...

interesting array of advice and fellow reassurance I suppose on that one. They've not had any wildly incorrect information but...

Sara (22:55)
Well,

I think it just goes to show that other people have had the same problem. Two other comments were like, yeah, we've been in that same boat. Like we were worried as well. So it's a common thing. It's, yeah, we need to understand colostrums first, then milk kicks in. Cause then once milk kicks in, this is when we get the, my bitch is panting and I don't know why. Is she ill? No. Yeah. So no, her milk's just kicking in now.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (22:59)
Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Changes the questions.

Sara (23:23)
That's why she's panting. She's producing milk. It's dropping, but she's meeting demand now. yeah, the questions just change direction to a degree. it's one of those, you just got to ride it out for the first three days. I'm not anti, obviously we've talked about it. I am pro weighing puppies. However, for the first three days, if people don't do it,

I'm not mad at it because There's not much you can do to safely fix the problem until milk kicks in or you get to the fourth day and you still got weight loss because then you need to do something now. So because I can understand how people start getting really anxious, weighing their pups every day and just seeing this number go down and down and down and down.

I am all for regular puppy weighing and I still do the first three days, but I mentally accepted in my head now, if the numbers go down, don't worry. to be fair, it is worth doing because when they go up, you're like, ah, milk's in, good, we're rocking and rolling. So you're not thinking, oh, wait the three days, wait the three days. So it just ticks that box.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (24:17)
I do.

It's a lovely feeling.

Sara (24:34)
But I understand why some people don't, but to me, you must be weighing them on the third, stroke, fourth day. You've got to weigh them when they're born. And then you've got to weigh them third, stroke, fourth day to know what's happening and whether you now need to intervene or not. If no other signs that you've been given no other negative concerns or signs basically.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (24:56)
Fair enough, I'm a religious weigher and one of them I'm afraid so I'm still weighing the first three days but that's because like you said I want to identify problems early on so mum's milk is in, if that's before the three day window I then wouldn't want to see a drop after that point so if I hadn't started weighing until day four but mum's milk was in by day two and then there's actually technically been a drop between day two and day four I wouldn't be comfortable in that situation or...

Sara (25:00)
You

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (25:23)
overly calm about seeing that sort of trend so for me I'd just wait but I understand what you're saying.

Sara (25:30)
It's just peace of mind, isn't it? Of either way, you're just dealing with the facts now, so then let's not ignore them, let's just deal with them. it's me to find a question, isn't it? Let's have a look

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (25:32)
Yeah. Yep. Pieces of that puzzle.

Yeah, exactly.

It is, it's your turn.

Sara (25:47)
Right. This is an interesting one, but not overly complicated. So it's got, those that use, I'm not going to name the brand, but for those that use a certain brand of dog shampoo, the two in one sort, is it okay for puppies at seven/eight weeks old? It doesn't say anything on the bottle.

Now, this is an interesting one and it might be different for coated breeds to non-coated breeds, but I have never in my life bathed a puppy before it's left for its new home. I just...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (26:14)
Yes.

I concur,

I've never needed to. We've both got short-coated breeds and we both wean onto raw, which probably makes a humongous difference in our opinion here, because weaning onto raw, again we've covered it in another podcast episode in series one, it's a lot less messy, you've not generally got the unfortunate poo storm that occurs around weaning time in young pups.

so they're not rolling around in faeces and everything else. We, in fact, I know I do the same. I introduced a toilet area very, very early on with my puppies and I know you do exactly the same, Sara, and it's amazing how young you can teach a litter of puppies. There is a separation between a toilet area and a bed area. So again, if you encourage those sorts of

habits and environmental changes at such a young age, I think all of this plays a massive factor into the fact that I don't bath my puppies because they're not wading through nasty things for eight weeks. They smell gorgeous and puppy-like and are nice and clean naturally by that age, so I wouldn't need to bath a puppy at seven weeks.

Sara (27:37)
doesn't have to be the norm that puppies stink. I can tell by walking into somebody's house with a litter of puppies, how those puppies are fed, whether they're kibble fed or whether they're raw fed, as soon as I walk into their house. And that's not a reflection on them and their hygiene standards. It's not any that I can, that's a reflection of the puppy's digestive system and the repercussions that come with that.

So that's one of the main reasons I switched to weaning onto raw was for, literally it was for my own sanity. I thought I don't want to constantly have to live in this smell, because all my dogs are reared in the house. I don't want to live with this smell. I don't want to wake up in the mornings and be all super stressed because I have to clean up all this poo and they've traipsed all through it and all that kind of thing. So the way I fixed that is to raw feed them.

It's literally not a concern in my head. And I think breeders should be setting up whelping pens with distinct areas. So it's not good enough just to have a bedding area and to whack down a thousand puppy pads. And then that's the rest of the pen. In my opinion, it should be a bedding area. It should be a play area. And then at the far end should be the toilet area.

So they know we have to walk through all the, if I'm in my bed, I need to walk all the way down, I need to go to the toilet and then I need to come all the way back. Because I tell you now, you will get less new owners whinging about toilet training if you have that set up because you've already conditioned the dog to look for the toilet area. Don't just assume anywhere is a toilet area if there's puppy pads down everywhere, because that's exactly what they will do because you've not told them otherwise. You've just said,

wee wherever you want. Go for it. Fill your boots.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (29:27)
Yeah, completely

agree. Completely agree. And for those of that have heard of the podcast episodes, there are various different socialisation programs and things like that. I am a fan of puppy culture myself, and it's one of the parts of puppy culture is defining these areas in the playpen and everything else. And I personally have seen huge differences in litters, reared with and without that being one small part of it. So I'm so here for a toilet area.

Sara (29:54)
Yeah, I mean, I've never done puppy culture. I've never done any fancy program, but the benefits are obvious, even from the benefits are really obvious. And some breeds are like super duper intelligent. You you can literally have not even puppy pads, you can have a tray, they even walk up onto a little tray, they're poo for the little rungs, wee for the rungs, so they can't even traipse through it. They can't even walk in it, or it's different.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (30:04)
Yeah.

Sara (30:22)
they'll just flick it and it'll roll somewhere. You know, can't really get trodden in on and around. But yeah, depending on what your setup is, you can get really clever with it that you literally just pick up one tray, empty it, put it back down again. I mean, I've with my Labradors, I can literally pick up the trays, flush that down the toilet. So I don't even have like, depends on the time you could have end up with maggots in your bins and all sorts, because you've got so much dirty, soiled

puppy area, you know, clean up that you can end up with maggots in your bin. I've had that before and it's disgusting. So the fact that I can just flush it and be gone with it, I don't even think it would be possible with kibble poo to try and collect it to be able to flush it. It just wouldn't even work that way. So you wouldn't think in your head having a well defined toilet area would mean I don't have to bath my puppies before they go to their new home.

but the logic is there that if you actually made those small changes, you probably wouldn't have to. I know with the coated breeds, it can be slightly different because obviously they just absorb every sticky thing that's possibly able to absorb. So I understand that that might be a little bit different, but I'm sure you could reduce the likelihood of that by some minor changes of, yeah, it's not a free for all.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (31:23)
Absolutely.

Yep.

Sara (31:40)
in a pen, there should still be boundaries and etiquette that that puppy needs to follow, which they will naturally do because that's what you're training them to do. So when they actually go to their new homes, they are ready to rock and roll. I'm all for getting them out in the garden when you can, as long as it's not raining, as long as it's not absolutely freezing. Get them to toilet outside. Like why are we even teaching them that it's acceptable to toilet in the house in the first place?

teach them that outside is the place unless you have an accident and then we'll deal with it. So yeah, so I don't know anything about dog shampoos because I've bathed a puppy in my life. And to be honest, I think I've said this before,

I've got dogs here I've never never given a bath thinking about it and obviously they're short coated but you know some of them are show dogs I'm all for regular brushing good food good supplements you probably don't have to bath your dogs that often and sometimes it's detrimental that you're doing it too much but I know we're all bit

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (32:27)
you

Absolutely, you

can strip the natural oils out of the coat by bathing too often in unsuitable products. yeah, I think obviously we're talking from an incredibly biased perspective here. I have got acquaintances and friends that breed other breeds of dog, for example poodles. It's actually highly beneficial that they are bathed before they leave for eight weeks, more to the point that they are

taught there are positive associations with being bathed and during that time proactive breeders will do sort of know treats and licky mats and whatnot while the puppies are getting used to being you know while the puppies are used to getting their feet wet or the hair dryers and things like that so I do understand from socialisation perspective going through that grooming protocol can be really powerful if you've got a breed that is going to need it as they grow into an adult.

then yes, starting them early would absolutely be sensible. that's another thing that these sort of puppy socialisation programs do promote is early positive experiences. So if you do fall into that category, it goes about saying, read the ingredients. I think I need that tattooed on my forehead at this stage.

because if there is an ingredient on that bottle or that packet that you can't pronounce, chances are it's not very good and it's not going to be particularly safe. And I heard a fantastic segment in another podcast actually, a holistic doctor, human doctor, but

She's fantastic. And actually I'll pop a link to that specific podcast in the show notes for anyone It was about toxins entering the body. it's in fact, Sara, we should probably do a podcast episode on microplastics and whatnot in the fertility world and things like that. And it was to do with microplastics, toxins, chemicals, the buildup in

our bodies and obviously anecdotally dogs live exactly the same lifestyles as us, they live beside us in our environments and she said something that really resonated with me which was why would you put something on your skin that you wouldn't eat? The skin is a breathable membrane barrier that is an organ that's alive and has a blood supply.

You go out, you buy these fancy creams, you see them on TV and their marketing spin is this amazing anti-wrinkle cream will penetrate X many layers down and offer use that highly... this will offer you intense moisturisation because it penetrates so deeply into your skin. Well, in the same breath, that demonstrates clearly that things you do put on your skin.

do penetrate the skin. The skin does have a blood supply and those things will enter your blood supply. We are the same as dogs in that sense. Dogs have the same blood supply to their skin. That's why they bleed if they cut their skin. So be very careful about what you're putting on your dog's skin, whether that be shampoo or otherwise, and even more so for young puppies, which may have not been exposed to many toxins or chemicals at all.

and could therefore have an even lower threshold to such chemicals.

Sara (35:52)
Yeah, I think if bathing is part of your puppy protocol.

then communicate that to your puppy owners of that needs to continue. It wasn't just a once off so the pup goes and it's all sparkly, that they need to understand going forward. I've already started them on the correct path because I've done this, this and this, but they need to understand the benefits of that and how they need to continue those correct behaviors. Because you're right, if you've got a dog that does need grooming,

every 12 weeks or whatever the numbers are, don't know, I don't have groomy dogs. That's the made up word. Then, groomy dogs, you know, the ones with the fur, the long stuff. Then yeah, that's part of that dog's life that needs to happen. So yeah, let's make it stress free as possible.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (36:27)
I like that. Groomy dogs. We've got un-groomy dogs.

Sara (36:42)
and sell that as a benefit that you've been a proactive breeder and you've started them on that path. And it's the owner's responsibility that that now continues. And I would assume that you're given advice on the best products from your understanding that you know, but like Isobel says, there's a growing concern, there's consciousness that people are becoming more aware of the products that surround us and how they might be impacting us.

and not only daily lives, but longevity and health and all sorts. So yeah, I don't think I've ever bathed my dogs in anything other than a Neem oil-based shampoo. I have no idea whether that's good, bad or indifferent, but it's always worked for me. So maybe I'll look at the back of the packet next time and check that I'm happy that I should be doing that.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (37:32)
absolutely should.

Sara (37:34)
But I'm sure that nowadays there's a lot more like organic suppliers of shampoos and this kind of like it's a growing trend with human products, isn't it? So I think one of these do a little...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (37:46)
Absolutely, it's awareness. I think that's what it is. I think people

are starting to realise that actually fragrances aren't a good thing and just because you can get a puppy fragrance shampoo doesn't mean that your puppy should smell of whatever that mango, lemon, sorbet fragrance that they've put in made from synthetic chemicals that are actually known carcinogens. It's just not a really great thing to do. So you won't have to look too hard to try and find a more natural base shampoo, that's for sure.

Sara (38:07)
down.

Yeah, the baby talcum powder smell. the in smell, I think. Should we do another question? do you want to do one more? Yeah.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (38:21)
Yeah, let's do a quick one.

Round it off as a round number. it's the opposite of round number. It's an odd number.

Sara (38:26)
Yeah.

It's fine, we'll take it whatever.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (38:32)
I found a very on topic question here actually from a poster saying, if your dog has had a c-section how much was it? I've never had any issues myself with birth but I want to set back that amount.

in the future just in case. So I'm very impressed that this is somebody who's got a bit of that... not saying she's a one-nit-a-Lucy, she's got some experience, but she's always had good experiences. It's really great to hear someone being proactive and saying, you know what, I've been lucky. And then she's not taking the it won't be me mentality, which is unusual. So, um, giving her a nod.

Sara (39:09)
you

What is she English is in the UK is it Isobel What I'm basically gonna say is I can't convert from dollars to UK I don't know the exchange rate Yeah, well

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (39:15)
no context. We don't know the breed, we don't know the weight.

No and it's constantly changing and I'm sure it's only going to change a lot more with the

political scene as it is.

Sara (39:33)
Yeah, it will be. It will do. Well, the classic answer is how long is a piece of string? Because we don't know the breed. Typically, it would be by weight because that would tell you how much anesthetic they need Sometimes some vets do, I've seen they will quote it per puppy.

So the bigger the litter, the more expensive it gets because the longer they're on the table, the longer the ops gonna take them or stitching and that kind of thing. So I have seen some crazy, yeah, where they've charged like a section fee and then amount per puppy, which is interesting. We don't like prices vary, vets vary. you could just.

make up a number. and let obviously if you're going to a breeder friendly vet, then the prices for those kind of procedures tend to be cheaper because they are more comfortable doing them because I have more experience, because it's a more frequent thing. I find vets that just aren't used to it will automatically just charge more money hoping to put you off the idea. So they don't have to do it.

but it really does vary it varies the time of day, whether it's in hours, out of hours, a bank holiday. You literally could make up a just from recent experience, I had a client.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (40:47)
Yeah.

Sara (40:56)
ring their vet and they basically said, yes, as long as you reverse progesterone test, we would be happy to do a C-section. So effectively it's an elective C-section, but they basically quoted for a Bulldog from 1500 to 3000. So.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (41:15)
So

100 % increase depending on the weather, the time of day and whether the vet fancy is doing it.

Sara (41:20)
Yeah, they basically said until we do the op, we don't really know. It depends how complicated it is or not. mean, a big difference. I mean, to save.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (41:26)
Okay.

Well, it's

it's 100 % increase difference. That's unbelievable that that's one practice. But it's good that they're being honest about their pricing structure, I suppose. It's yeah, a lack of context there. So I think a lot of people are going to chip in with personal experience on that on that post. But again, unless those responses give context as to their location in the world, whether it was in hours, out of hours and breed.

Sara (41:34)
Yeah.

Yep.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (41:57)
you can't really take an awful lot from from what these responses are going to be

Sara (42:01)
I was gonna say just realistically, if I literally had no clue, and I thought a c-section might be on the horizon, and I've done no research, I think you need to have 4000 pounds in your bank account.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (42:20)
I personally was going to say off the top of my head 3,500 is what I'd have in mind so that's interesting that we've both plucked a number out within a very similar ballpark. Not that I'm ever hoping it would be that amount but I'd rather have too much sat there than too little and what is the most expensive c-section you've heard of Sara?

Sara (42:26)
Mm.

well, paid and this is many moons ago now. must be what nearly six years ago I paid, I think it was 3,200 on a bank holiday, on a bank holiday weekend, to have no live pups and a spade bitch.

So that didn't go. Yeah, I can laugh now, but that didn't go as planned. All I was glad was that the bitch was alive and the money really didn't matter. But that's a tough pill to swallow with my understanding of all how a situation in dog breeding can go. So, and I say that was quite a long time ago now. So I imagine if I was in that same situation now.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (43:04)
the trials and tribulations of breeding everyone!

you

Sara (43:29)
Yeah, that's probably a six grand bet bill.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (43:32)
easily from what you're saying when you add in inflation and vets rates going up the way they have in that time as well

Sara (43:33)
and

Yeah.

So that's myself. If I can sort of think about some of my clients' comments, I think I did have a guy with a Labrador that paid three and a half thousand and she was only carrying three pups anyway. One had died. So yeah, they'd done a section for two pups. yeah, which just really shocked me because that seemed a lot of money.

I don't know, for a Labrador C section, I don't know, it just seemed a bit excessive because they're not particularly quirky. So I think that's, yeah, probably about three and a half grand is probably the highest I've heard at this time that I can recall in my brain.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (44:23)
Interesting. Okay, yeah, I was gonna say I've not heard of anything starting with a four but I certainly have a thing starting with a three. So yeah, that would be a pretty unanimous response from yourself and I. In terms of the responses on the post, just to give our international listeners some context as well, a few people have commented from around the world. So we've got a thousand dollars in Michigan, we've got ten thousand pounds.

for a c-section on a Labrador in Central Point, Oregon maybe? I'm assuming that's the US. $10,000 for a c-section on a Labrador.

Sara (44:54)
Wow.

That's insane. They must have been charging by the pup. See, this is one of these. I bet it was a grand a pup.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (45:06)
$10,000.

That is a house deposit. Ouch.

Sara (45:15)
Yeah, it's crazy.

It's just crazy. I don't think I bang on about this a little bit because I don't think some breeders realise the risk they're taking on not only for the bitches health and well being, but also financially. I'm all for the power of positive thinking and why would you go into a situation thinking it's going to be all doom or gloom, but realistically, you could come out.

with a 10,000 pound vet bill and have absolutely nothing to show for it. And then you would seriously question your sanity of why you've just done that. think what was the most I... So what was, think the situation I've been in, I was, it cost me 5,000 pounds to do a frozen breeding, TCI, pregnancies, all the things.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (45:46)
to show for it.

Yeah, there has to be good motivation.

Sara (46:10)
C-section to have all the pups die and I thought you know what I would rather have left that money on the doorstep and Let anyone come and take it then put my bitch all through that for no reason No, it wasn't even about the money. It was the fact that she's carried a litter She's had a c-section all of that toll on her body That's cost me five thousand pounds to have absolutely

nothing to show it like it was pointless. It just felt really pointless. And I would have rather have just given that money to someone in my community and have a good time and saved everybody or the bother about it. I think when you breed, you have to be running on averages. So you have to everything should be priced. And that's why I think generally most puppy prices are not expensive enough.

everything has to be priced assuming it will go wrong. And if it doesn't, that's fine because then in your head, yeah, in your head, you might start thinking, I've overcharged for this dog now. No, you haven't. You've just built a reserve for when it does go wrong. That's all you've done.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (47:06)
Yeah, of course.

You've got it in reserves for next time if it does.

Yeah, we're working with biology.

That's what you've got to remember and as much as we like it, it is sunshine and rainbows when it goes swimmingly into plan and what better thing is there on planet Earth than newborn squeaky little puppies. It is amazing, but unfortunately, like you said, it can go wrong and when it does, it's very, very costly.

give you a few more results here. Somebody said in South Carolina they were quoted four to eight thousand dollars. Another has 100 % increase. yeah that's like are you paying for one c-section or two? What would you like to pay for her? Another's commented here saying on a Labrador in the UK they are based in County Durham and have been quoted two thousand.

Sara (47:48)
I mean, that's another 100 % increase, isn't it? Like four to eight. That's crazy.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (48:07)
in hours or three thousand for an emergency section so again that's a Labrador what you consider a straightforward breed or we would generally in the UK. So another commenter here in the UK in Surrey which is in the south east near London somebody has been quoted nine hundred pound for an elective c-section or an unplanned four thousand pound.

Sara (48:31)
So, how good?

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (48:32)
bearing in mind we're

talking what if there was an emergency at like one o'clock pm in the afternoon well that's because it's not booked in it's automatically four grand ouch wowzers

Sara (48:42)
That's crazy. Well, the 900 seemed

way too cheap, because I was going to say, well, what breed of dog is that? For a 900 seems too cheap, but then...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (48:49)
Yeah, that's, let's see if I can

find out. see if, looks like a French bulldog from the profile, so that's interesting. That is cheap, but it's a smaller weight of dog.

Sara (48:54)
then to jump up to Yeah, see that's see that's if I'm in my in my

Yeah, but I to me I would I would expect a Frenchie to come in still at 1200 I Don't I would be shocked if anyone's doing C sections under a thousand pounds

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (49:13)
under a thousand yeah

I have heard of the odd place here and there but I understand there's a human psychology that also goes along with pricing and I must say I would be hesitant not necessarily on correct basis or anything other than psychology if I was quoted less than a thousand

Sara (49:32)
Well, it worries me about the different anesthetics and you have better quality than others. And I've been like, yeah, don't be scrimping on that stuff. Like give her what she needs.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (49:35)
yep.

Yeah, there are a few vets.

It's interesting. I know that there is a few vets in the UK that do pride themselves on their c-sections and that's sort of their bread and butter. And I have heard of figures being thrown around regularly between £500 and £900. And I know that people will travel several hours to use a specific vet that I'm thinking of that comes in nearer £500 than not.

It's interesting that there are such huge differences and like you said is it because they're using different drugs is it because they're not charging their hourly rate as high is it because in fact the surgeon is highly skilled and therefore they can do a c-section a lot quicker and they need less assistant staff in with them potentially. I'm not a vet so I don't know.

Sara (50:29)
I don't know what the drill is about drips, whether the bit should definitely be put on a drip or not. Because that used to be a big thing back in the day, she definitely need to be on the drip, but I'm not too sure whether that happens nowadays or not.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (50:44)
don't know we could do with a guest episode couldn't we with a vet jumping on to other things that'd be really great. It'd be good to get another perspective because there's some really wild differences. Another comment here somebody on Australia $2,100 which to me sounds quite fair for Australia I know their cost of living is a lot higher than over here and that doesn't shock me.

Sara (50:48)
Yeah, we need to...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (51:13)
Somebody else has commented on here, 500 pound in the UK. Very surprising.

Sara (51:13)
Well.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (51:19)
London. So obviously, bear in mind London is our capital city. You'd expect potentially either more competitive rates or higher rates depending on which way around you look at it. Quoted £4,200 up to £5,000. That's the highest I've heard all in the UK.

Sara (51:36)
Yeah, I

reckon the numbers, as you say, it depends whether they're breeder friendly vets, whether it's their specialism, whether they want to entertain that type of work for their practice or not. And as with anything, variety is the spice of life. And there's some vets that'll be like, yeah, like it's no big deal, we can do it. And other vets, they're just not interested. They're rather just deal with, yeah, whacking out antibiotics and wormer and getting on with their day. So, or...

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (51:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So I would say from

an average of those comments I've read in the UK it looks to be about and 4,000 pounds and I would say in America it looks like it's anything upwards from $1,000 up to $10,000. So yeah, huge, huge variations in cost. So in answer to that original poster's question, how much should she put aside for C-section? How long is a piece of string? What breed have you got?

four thousand pounds ish then you've got money left over if things go to plan

Sara (52:37)
I agree

we done for this week's episode? I feel that we are.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (52:43)
I think

we are. Yeah, that was another really enjoyable listen for you and one of our...

many informal chats that Sara and I enjoy over the world of breeding. We would love to have you guys get involved in the next Q &A session. As you can tell, Sara and I would natter all day long about these things and happily answer any of your questions. So if you want to email them in to podcast@breedersbrew.com

or head over to our Facebook page and pop your questions in there, then hopefully we should be able answer some of those live on the next podcast episode.

Sara (53:17)
Thank you for listening to my brutal honesty. And I hope you tune in next week. See you then. Bye.

Isobel Canine Nutrition Coach (53:22)
and mine.

See you later.

Sara Lamont (53:31)
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