Q&A: Puppy Brain is a Real Thing

Are you unsure if your bitch is too old for a first litter or feeling overwhelmed by conflicting advice in whelping groups? 

In this episode, we tackle real breeder dilemmas and bring clarity to the chaos. From managing multiple litters with limited equipment to the emotional toll of high-stakes breedings, we share the truths most breeders keep to themselves. You’ll hear honest reflections on when to walk away, what resilience really looks like, and why every loss or win teaches us something.

For support that aligns with your breed, background and breeding mindset, join the Brew Crew and connect with breeders who understand both the practical and emotional weight of doing things correctly.

📌 Show notes – breedersbrew.com/notes/s2e12
📩 Email your questions to podcast@breedersbrew.com

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Transcript

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (00:23)
welcome to another episode of The Breeders Brew, where this series we are concentrating on a Q and A.

Style format so we are looking at online whelping groups particularly Facebook looking at some of the posts have been made questions that are being asked and taking a deep dive into Whether the comments are correct They're giving a good advice or not and then we'll add in a bit of our little sort of pepper advice on top of it as well Just to season it all up. So I am one of your hosts Sara Lamont the canine family planner and fortunately, I'm graced with the presence of

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (00:59)
Isobel canine nutrition coach. What a lovely intro. Thanks, Sara.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (01:02)
Yay! Maybe I should try and think of a different one every time.

So, right, let's get stuck in, Isobel Have you got a post that's been made recently in a group that we can pick apart and deep dive into?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (01:18)
Of course I have, there will never be a shortage of questions online, will there? So, let's get started. A question that I have just seen posted in one of the groups is from an anonymous member asking, how old is too old to have a first litter?

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (01:40)
How old is too old to have a first litter. Now I'm just gonna put it out there that from my understanding and actually I don't even know why this might be in regards to this why this number has been but if I've ever been asked I've always said that you want a female to have a first litter before they're four years old.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (02:04)
Okay, interesting comment. Now, I thought you were gonna play detective like you like to do in these games, where you would have said to me, Isobel, now tell me this, Isobel, tell me that and you jumped right in there. I'm impressed.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (02:09)
sorry. Well, I was gonna...

Well,

well, because it's irrespective of breed.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (02:22)
Okay, interesting comeback.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (02:26)
So that's why I said that.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (02:26)
I think that's really

interesting because I would say somewhat on the contrary because if you look at breeds that have naturally a shorter fertile window because they have a shorter lifespan you know you look at your giant breeds like your Great Danes St Bernard's you know big breeds that have a much shorter lifespan then naturally they are essentially aging quicker

than a small dog that has a lifespan of say 16, 17 years old. I'm not for a second suggesting that my personal views would differ, however, I would think that it is breed specific.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (03:04)
Yeah, but it's the first litter not a last litter So I don't...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (03:09)
That's true.

That's very true.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (03:13)
I would agree with what you've just said, if it was last litter, but because it's first, it's just actually how late is too late to think about breeding my bitch and four years old, generally fits the cap for most breeds, even the breeds that age quicker have a smaller window of fertility, because it might be their first and only litter anyway.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (03:14)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yes, that's very true actually. When you dissect it and answer the actual question in hand, I do agree with you. Yeah, we are talking about first litter not last here and I suppose I went down a bit.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (03:47)
Yeah, think, because normally I think that question would be how young, because like how old are they? So it's just because it's phrased a bit differently, because obviously, the Kennel Club will let you register a litter from a female 12 months plus. And that's when it is different for breeds. most owners will want to do the health testing.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (03:55)
Yes!

Yep.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (04:12)
Generally most health tests, they want the dog to be at least 12 months old. So then really can't breed at 12 months because they haven't done the health testing. So most breeds would then recommend 18 months to two years old. So, you know, that's an extra 12 months down the line to what you technically could do. then it becomes a different ball game because then you're in a, you say the breeds that have the smaller window.

In regards to fertility, younger is always generally better once they're of adolescence age and their sexual maturity has actually been achieved to breed when the dog's younger is always better than older. But again, I don't know if this is an old wives tale, but I heard someone talk about breeding from dogs was better because they had softer pelvic bones. So they were saying to breed, yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (05:00)
I was brought up on the same

old wives tale from my grandmother and my mother. That was osmosis knowledge that I had passed down. But we're talking, you know, that was potentially 60, 70 years ago, some of that information passing down. it's interesting that both you and I, different breeds, different, you know, you've come from a family of bulldogs, I've come from a family of the Dachshunds, we've both ended up with that sort of...

secondhand knowledge, not knowledge, secondhand, yeah, like said, secondhand wise tale really. there's going to be some validity in the statement in as much as naturally the older we get.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (05:28)
Mmm.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (05:37)
Our bodies do stop producing as much collagen. know, we do start naturally. The minute any mammal hits middle age, technically you are starting to age. So, you know, your DNA chains are getting shorter. We're all getting grayer. Things aren't regenerating as they should. Now, I would hazard a confident guess that that is going to affect bone density as well.

unless your dog is like, we're talking, you know, an athlete that's training all the time and essentially doing weight training and this out of the other that then affects bone density the other way. So there will definitely be bodily changes.

Whether or not that's the pelvis getting less flexible, I'm not so sure on that comment. But I definitely think there would be changes even in the cartilage and the tendons and the muscles because our bodies as mammals become less and less good at maintaining.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (06:18)
Mmm.

Yeah, so just overall health is going to be better younger, which is no different to humans. To have kids younger rather than older is always a preferred route. So yeah, I mean, it's a bit of crazy spin on it, but we've come a long way since then.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (06:32)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, well, I mean,

it is, but what I do find interesting, I have in this conversation the other day, in us humans, technically, if you have a baby over the age of 35, you're classified as geriatric pregnancy.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (06:58)
Yeah, how offensive.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (07:00)
Yeah, I

mean, that's wild to me because I just wouldn't classify someone as 36 as geriatric. So there are clearly medical implications. I appreciate we are completely different in live birth and shapes of our uteruses and everything else compared to the dogs. But basic biology will still stand.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (07:16)
Ahem.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (07:27)
the older the dog, technically the more difficult the pregnancy could be.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (07:28)
Yeah, because you would think that...

it's a bit weird because you think with humans that have been longer, so then you think that would elongate the fertility window. But that's obviously not the case, is it? Fertility has its own biological clock, obviously, and that hasn't been impacted. We've elongated like the second half of our lifespan, not the first half or something. So...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (07:36)
Yep.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, there's a bit of a name for that actually, Sara, and it's called health span. So your health span is the amount of time that you have from birth until you start to be overcome by aging, essentially to the point where you have ill health, whether that's osteoporosis, dementia, age-related conditions, essentially, that would mark the end of your health span or the tail of your health span. So...

There have been quite a few interesting articles flying around recently suggesting exactly that, our lifespan is increasing, yet our health spans are actually reducing.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (08:34)
Okay. Why are they reducing? Why are they reducing?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (08:36)
So it ties in because our

exposure to carcinogens is at an all time high. So the same way that cancer's now one in two, know, way back when, I remember years ago when I was growing up, it was one in four, one in five. And in the matter of less than a decade, we've gone from that to, we've doubled it basically, haven't we? And again, people then unfortunately terminally ill with cancer, that would mark, you know, the end of their health span. So.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (08:46)
Okay.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (09:02)
When dogs live alongside us in exactly the same environments, in the same lounges that we're spraying down with floor cleaner and in the same kitchens that we're spraying kitchen spray and in the same bedrooms that we're spraying perfumes, they are being exposed to all of the same airborne toxins and carcinogens and chemicals that are shortening our health spans. So we should be seeing, unfortunately, the same decline in dogs.

and we have been frankly.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (09:31)
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yep. So we went on a tangent, but to answer what was was sorry, what were some of the comments then about what other people said?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (09:36)
Of course.

Absolutely. obviously the question was how old is too old to have a first litter? So there's been quite a few comments actually. People have got really really engaged. I think it's quite an emotive topic.

Someone said, depends on what breed. Breed definitely makes a difference in my opinion, but I would say five to six years of age. Another person has reflected the exact same comments. Another has said eight for Kennel Club dogs.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (10:09)
yeah technically on paper you can register a litter up until eight years old so that's why they said eight but realistically is that the right thing no that's a veteran a veteran mum having her first having her first litter are you crazy yeah

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (10:19)
Absolutely not. It is a veteran.

and it's quite, it's quite

scary that somebody's chipped in their comment there because if the OP doesn't know an awful lot about, as we were just saying, anything over seven in the show rings a veteran and doesn't have those extra little bits of information and scope on the situation, if they read that comment and go it's fine, the Kennel Club says I'm allowed to up to eight, that's the Royal Kennel Club of the UK, that is our governing body is the way some people

see that. So I don't really agree with people throwing statements around. I believe that they probably should have added a little bit more context to their comment there saying just because a KC allow it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Another's commented here saying my girl is five in March and she'll be having her final litter next season.

She struggled at the end of the pregnancy last time, but she bounced back so quickly and she's a great mum. So that's someone talking about last litter, not first. So that sounds sensible, a last litter at five, depending on how many litters you had and what break you've had. That doesn't surprise me.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (11:26)
Mmm.

Though ironically she struggled but we're going to breed her anyway.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (11:30)
Unless it's no comment.

Yes,

that part is a little bit shocking. I wouldn't expect to see the word struggle in her comments, so we're going again. Somebody else here has commented, mine was five for her first litter. She has silent heat, so it's been really hard to catch her. She only had a singleton, so that didn't go too well.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (11:38)
Yeah.

And that's the problem. If you have a female that you're participating in some kind of dog activity or sport, then you won't want to withdraw them from that, especially if they're achieving extremely well to attend to maternal duties. So that does tend to naturally push back a window of opportunity for people. And then you are going against the grain of what's an ideal age to be having a first litter of your female.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (11:59)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (12:18)
So I totally understand that. mean, this is where it would be amazing, like with the horses where they have the surrogate mums and the egg transplants and transfers that they do. Imagine if you had like your champion bitch and you could harvest all the eggs. In my ideal world, I would harvest, when I had my champion bitch, I would harvest all her eggs and then I would have fertilised them and put them in a Labrador because she would have carried bigger litter, she would have whelped them easier.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (12:32)
I'm

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (12:44)
and it would have been loads easier. That is not allowed currently yet. Obviously you can clone your dog and to clone your dog that though a fertilised egg would have to be put into another dog as a surrogate. that is happening somewhere, not within certain countries, within their legislations.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (12:48)
yet.

Korea.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (13:04)
ethics at the moment, but that it has happened and it can happen, but it's definitely not common practice compared to with the horses. I know it's much more of an acceptable. I know you can't do it with all types of horses, can you? It's only certain types of horses that are allowed to do it. Yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (13:07)
Yep. Yep.

No, do you know what? I don't know a lot about the

surrogacy side in horses.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (13:30)
Well, obviously, I don't I've never owned a horse. but I know it's not based. It depends. It depends how you're competing with your horse and it wouldn't be accepted in some of the channels or competition, but in others it is as far as I'm aware, when I last had a conversation, obviously, with a horsey person to find this out. But yeah, imagine if you could do that, but that would totally, totally change the game, especially the breeds that have such small fertility windows.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (13:33)
I have, but haven't breed them.

Right.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (13:58)
that you could have some other bitch carry their puppies and you could still heavily campaign your dog or whatever activity you're doing. And then she could be have new pups come up the lines and she's never actually reared the litter herself. That would be crazy, which is probably why we're not allowed to do it. But I was all for it at one point.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (14:15)
Yes, I would hazard a guess that's exactly why.

Before long, you'll

see these puppy vats where people are just growing them in giant tanks in their puppy farms otherwise.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (14:30)
my

gosh, don't, let me go all black mirror, won't we?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (14:33)
Yeah, let's not do that. Black Mirror terrifies me. Can't get my head around any

of it. So anyway, back to the question in hand.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (14:41)
Any other comments? What were the other comments? we go.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (14:45)
Quite a few fives and sixes, actually. said four. All my girls don't breed past four years old. I'm in America and this is a common theme here. Interesting.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (14:54)
Yeah, but don't read past. Has everyone read the question properly? Don't read past for. That sounds, yes, but the way that's worded makes you think last, not first, but still, yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (15:01)
Yeah, don't know. I'm assuming that's first litter.

Another said I wouldn't

Another has said I wouldn't breed past four to four and a half, which, yeah, it's a similar sort of comment. Another's saying five.

Someone said, For a first litter, I would not breed over four years old. Any subsequent litters by seven. I'm sure the Kennel Club used to have a rule about not registering first litters on a girl over four, but I'm not sure if they stopped it or if I'm remembering incorrectly. I've been breeding a very long time. Each to their own, discuss it with your vets. Now that's interesting. That could be where...

the four figures coming from in our minds, Sara.

if that was the case when my mum, my grandmother, you know, had dogs way back when, if this is an old school rule, this could make sense how it's kind of been passed down.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (15:50)
Yeah.

Yep, yep, sounds, it's, yeah, it's quite funny. Cause when I think back to, I put a load of my Bulldog stuff in the loft cause I didn't want to not have it as an archive. And I've got one of my original Kennel Club transfer of ownership.

and documents and obviously now it's all quite fancy fold over flipping bit and you get your transfer codes and all the rest of it. And it was literally a dot. Do you remember the dot matrix printers with the holes in the side? It's one of those and it's blue and white. And it's the it's it's just like a sliver. It's like, well, one fourth of a

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (16:25)
Yes. my goodness.

Wow.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (16:35)
portrait

bit of paper and that's all you had and that was it. So I was like, wow, they've come a real long way since, and obviously they just printed off the litter.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (16:42)
Sara, out of interest,

you'll have to stick a picture of that in the show notes for those that are interested, because I know we natter away and it must be really gutting if you can't actually see what we're trying to describe here.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (16:51)
I'd

say now you're making me go in the loft and go and get it out and take a picture. Is that what's happening? To be, I know it's fine. I've got Christmas decorations to put away. I can do it. We'll put it in the show notes. But yeah, you know, you just went, wow, like that's how fast stuff can change. So yeah, it wouldn't surprise me that, they could have possibly had that in their breeder ethics or code of ethics that they have. And then they've just taken it out as life has progressed.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (16:55)
No, no, no, no pressure.

good, good.

I

I wonder if it was backed on some form of science because that's not a commercially driven decision by the Kennel Club because they're actually limiting the number of registrations on their books. So it makes sense that they've lifted that rule from a commercial perspective. But I wonder what made them put it on there in the first place. If only we could ask.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (17:37)
Yeah, well,

they're very much a different beast now to what they used to be. But yeah, I imagine it's under their code of ethics section, which again, back to back breeding is in their code of ethics that they prefer you not to do it, but they will register a back to back litter. So they advise one thing, but they accept another. So I imagine maybe that's how it fell into that. Have we answered?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (17:49)
It is.

Yes.

Yeah, that sounds very logical.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (18:02)
Have we covered everything on there? Do you want my question that I've found?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (18:06)
Yeah, no, we've covered everything there. I think the weigh-in from both you and I was pretty similar, really. For me, I wouldn't necessarily say it was a hard and fast four or nothing. Obviously, I've got the Dachshunds and they do have an incredibly long lifespan. So if there was a bitch that was incredibly fit and healthy, very well-fed and thriving, almost four and a half...

I'd consider it. So definitely case by case.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (18:29)
Yeah, I totally agree.

dog has to be judged on their own merit and it's your decision. So if you make the wrong decision, then you're accountable for it, isn't it? So it's fine. Like if you're going to go against the grain, that's all fine. As long as you're aware of the possible risks that you have now taken on board. But like I said, if you've got a bitch that's competing and doing really well, yeah, naturally those dates are going to fall back.

because, why would you pull her out from something that you're obviously passionate about participating in? So then you're going to fall into these later brackets, but then typically you are aware of, well, you should at least be conscious of the height and risk you are now taking and also that you've now compressed your window of fertility. So typically maybe that breed, you would have three litters out of a bitch and now you know you're only going to have one or two because you are literally running out of time.

And so yeah, it's definitely on a case by case basis without a doubt, without a doubt.

Right, let's move on to my question then. the question is...

I have two litters of French bulldogs. One litter is 12 days old and the other litter is three days old. I only have one pet brooder incubator. I'm debating on whether I should put the older pups into the whelping box with a heat lamp or put a divider in the incubator at 85 degrees or whatever the Americans do. It's an American one. So.

not a lot of people know this, no they do know this. Some breeds are put in incubators or puppy boxes and they are kept separate for the mum and it's a controlled feeding schedule that's followed because to be fair with a french bulldog I wouldn't actually do that so I think she's made life more difficult for herself than she needed to but who knows maybe the mum first time mum and she didn't trust her and she's

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (20:21)
I was thinking that.

Yep.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (20:30)
played it safe and she thought no let's put the puppies in the incubator and I'll oversee all the feeds and we'll put them back but then obviously she's had another litter what nine days later and now she's thinking what do I do do I put both litters in the in the incubator or not what's your opinion what would you do Isobel?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (20:49)
Firstly, obviously you're limited by the size of the incubator. Goes about saying if it's going to be cramped, then no, I wouldn't be cramming them all in there like a little battery farm because it's really important for neonates to be able to move around in the whelping box. You know, you hear about swimmers, you hear about muscle wastage, twisted limbs from being in the womb. It's so important in those first few days for puppies to able to build all those muscles.

and just start living. So if you've got a tiny incubator that's going to limit their movement that could cause not just immediate immediate impacts that could literally cause lifelong detriment to those puppies

if their muscle growth isn't in the correct sequence, know, if it isn't in the correct way, not to mention the fact naturally it's going to affect other things, not just the obvious that we can see with our eyes. So I would be quite surprised at an incubator fitting in two litters, not to mention the fact that 12 day old puppies are going to be very mobile. That's coming into eye opening window almost, you know, they're going to be up about

having shuffle around the pen or incubator. So again, I can't see there being enough space in that incubator for two litter, both things considered.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (22:09)
I personally would never mix two litters because I just think if I just don't want transfer of anything between anyone and then impacting all the pups rather than one litter of the pups and a nine day gap is actually a really significant development gap. I don't think she'll be able to mix those pups at any point. I think I had a

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (22:21)
Yep.

Huge.

you

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (22:32)
10 day gap and I was hoping that I'd be able to think, at one point, yeah, we can all chuck them in the pen and it just didn't happen. actually maybe with the French bulldogs, because the weight difference will reduce as they get old. Yeah, it wouldn't be until everybody is up on their feet and can escape a situation if they needed to.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (22:50)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (22:52)
And so to put in puppies with eyes opening in with puppies that don't have eyes open, they're just going to get trampled and laid on. And yeah, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it at all.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (23:00)
Well, I'd read

between the lines there that she was gonna put some sort of separator between them. I didn't even think for a second that somebody maybe daft enough to put in two litters of... Okay, that puts my mind to rest somewhat.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (23:06)
Oh yeah, no, she did. Yeah, no, she... Yeah, well... Yeah,

she did say put in a divider, but I mean, how robust is this? Is it meant? And then are you impacting airflow with the incubator? if it's not designed to have... Yeah, if it's not designed to have a divider in, don't put a divider in. So to me, without a doubt, these pups at 12 days old can just be in a whelping box with a heat.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (23:16)
Yeah, still stands. Yeah.

Yeah, humidity.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (23:34)
I would do heat mat. I don't like the idea of a heat lamp, but she suggested heat lamp.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (23:34)
Definitely. Yep.

Especially not on that

age of puppies either. I think, you know, at that age they are mobile enough to be comfortably using a heat pad. You know, you've not got to worry about them falling off the heat pad and not being able to find their way back. They're 12 day old puppies.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (23:56)
Yeah. Yeah, so I think she's kind of worrying over nothing. She just needs to upgrade.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (24:00)
Yeah, mean, we should be starting

to wean? Yeah, should we starting to wean soon? So I agree with what you're saying there, Sara, I'd be putting the older litter in a heat controlled environment that isn't the incubator and keeping the incubator for the brand new babies.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (24:16)
This is a classic case of puppy brain. This is what it does to you, rearing litters, where you start losing sight of common sense. And the basic decisions become really hard to make because you're just so tired.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (24:25)
Yep.

100%.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (24:34)
Okay, so some of the comments include, where do you live? Is the weather extreme enough to actually need it? So yeah, someone just trying to find out. Anyway, she's in Australia.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (24:44)
So is that somebody suggesting that if the weather is not that cold you shouldn't need an incubator? Because I don't strictly agree with that statement. You could be somewhere really warm but you still need a heat controlled, humidity controlled environment for certain litters.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (24:59)
She's put because they've been a bit backwards and toing and froing. And she said, I've had a quick Google. The weather doesn't seem so bad. If you chuck the older pups in the whelping box, to just be sure they they are clear of any drafts or cold floors, i.e. not near tiles or concrete, would be more than sufficient. One way to tell is how the puppy sleep. If they're grouped together,

they're not warm enough if they're spaced out they're too hot.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (25:31)
Is that not the only two ways you can sleep? They will either be on each other or spaced out so that's not giving a lot.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (25:36)
Well, yeah, yeah, so that's what she, so

basically, someone else has said the youngest and weakest should take priority,

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (25:47)
Yep.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (25:47)
They've just asked a load more questions actually, like are they indoors? What does the whelping area look like? What are the puppy's temperatures? What's the room temperature? So they're just sort of fact-finding. Somebody else has said use the, is it easy? Whelp box, like the big E, the big Z and the whelp box with a heat lamp and heat pad and keep the temp, yeah, and keep the house to a certain temperature. You don't need both. Someone said take the bigger ones out with the heat.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (26:07)
Don't you both?

No.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (26:17)
with a heat lamp, they do just fine. And then someone said, depending on how big the litter is.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (26:25)
Okay, so they're suggesting if you've got two litters of three, for example, and you only got six pups total. I still do agree with you that I wouldn't be mixing litters lightly. I really do because you just don't know. They still are going at different life stages. There's just no need because the older litter are that much more developed and they are at the point where they will be weaning very, very soon.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (26:30)
yeah.

Well,

Okay, so if the divider wasn't in there, it fell down one day, and then you've got the little pups wading through some big pups poo, yet their immune system is not as developed, and they're not on that milk because they've got different mums, it's just too much of a risk that's just not necessarily... Someone else has said, you don't always need incubators or heat lamps. I live in New York, and I didn't need one.

I listened to everyone and mama wouldn't let me put them in there. Yeah. So I don't think French Bulldogs needs these anyway, cause I tried to rear a French Bulldog litter like a Bulldog litter and she went crazy. And that's what this woman's saying. She wouldn't let me, she wouldn't let me put them in there. I had the exact same thing.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (27:24)
Yeah. They want to be a good mum. They're telling

you, let me be a mum.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (27:31)
Yeah. And the thing is the French Bulldogs are so light on their feet. They're so much more agile. They're not mini Bulldogs. They are French Bulldogs. They're way more terrier. you don't need to rear them like a Bulldog because they're not. So I agree with her. Yeah, you don't need them in an incubator in the first place.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (27:35)
Yes. Yes.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (27:50)
I feel with these things, once someone's purchased it, they're going to use it. Otherwise, they're going to have buyers regret, aren't they? I've just spent a lot of money on that and I never used it.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (27:53)
Yeah, yeah.

And not to mention the fact we're making

a lot of assumptions here for all we know unfortunately she could have lost a bitch in C-section, she could have lost both bitches, she could be fostering both litters and potentially not even have mums there. There's so many things that we don't know the answers to as always with these things. We need to play detective a little bit before we can give certain answers but we can give pretty good overviews.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (28:14)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, you're right there. And then the last comment was just...

someone just saying that they lived in Ontario, Canada, and they only use heat lamps. So that's just a heat lamp versus heat pad kind of conversation. But yeah, no, I think we've torn that to pieces. We've added our two pence worth in. That's what they're listening for. Should we do one more question?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (28:40)
Yep, that we have.

maybe more like 10 pounds worth, but hey, it's fine.

Yeah.

why

not? So I thought we'd end on something a bit different actually, a bit of reflection for us. So somebody has posted saying did you learn anything about yourself from bringing up your first litter?

maybe let's open it up a bit. Did you learn anything about yourself from bringing up a specific litter?

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (29:07)
Well, what's...

Is this a question to me?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (29:12)
Well, I mean it was a question to everyone, so yeah, to you.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (29:16)
Well, I tell you now, I learn every single litter. Let know the first litter. I'm bored of learning. Sometimes I'm like, do you know what? I'm so over this. I don't want to learn anymore. I refuse to learn anymore because something, yeah, I get a lesson every time. So.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (29:20)
Yeah.

You

Just give me boring. That's

what I always say in life now. Just give me some boring.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (29:37)
Yeah, I don't think it's so it's interesting. Yes, everyone should most definitely learn about in their first litter, because that's the first time you've done any of this. So it really is your benchmark of what dog breeding actually really entails. But with that said, everybody should be learning from every single litter you breed. And if you ever get to the point where you think, well, that was easy, didn't literally I breezed it.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (29:59)
100%

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (30:06)
And you'll just do the same again. Your standards are probably not keeping up with modern times. You've got comfortable rearing pups how you've reared pups and it does the job. You kept them alive, they're fit and healthy enough they go to the new homes. But the

breeding standards have increased. There's always new methods, new techniques, new products, new equipment. I would struggle for somebody not to learn at least one new entity of dog breeding on every litter. And if, like I said, if you haven't, it's because you're getting quite lazy.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (30:43)
Yeah, complacent, lazy. You're just not trying hard enough. do feel if you're breeding dogs for the right reasons, which is pure and utter passion for the animal that is in front of us, then you should always be trying to do your absolute best with every opportunity and every decision you get faced with, with your dog's best interest at heart, puppy's best interest, new puppy owner's best interest. So if you're always trying to...

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (30:46)
Yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (31:08)
strive for those levels of perfect then they will always be learning to do 100 percent. So is there any personal reflections that you feel you may have learned on a specific litter about yourself or your first litter or most recent litter?

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (31:26)
let me think, my first litter, no, I think I was just glad I kept them all alive, that they were Bulldogs found, no, like I was learning that everything was new, like literally everything was new. I was younger then, so I don't think the lack of sleep bothered me. I probably didn't have a full grasp of the responsibility of making sure all the pups went to new, good homes, though they did all go to good homes.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (31:31)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (31:50)
but that never weighed on me as like as a serious concern because I just kind of felt we found these people, they were nice people, they were gonna be good homes. I have a different reflection of that now, I'm much more thorough. But you know, they were good puppy owners, so I didn't have any concerns about that. So yeah, I was probably just a bit naive to it, or really, so I was just happy that I'd...

kept a big bulldog litter alive. We found some amazing homes. They were probably a bit ugly, like a reflection to my standards of what I breed now. But then I was starting out and they were fit and healthy. So that was the main thing, but the conformation and type could have definitely been better. And we did use a champion dog because we owned him, but it was the bitch that was the problem. But my most difficult litter was

definitely definitely my dusty litter where I did my frozen breeding I used a deceased dog. It was I was the first person to use him. And the problem with breeding is when you get the bad news, it feels really, bad because it's it's come after all this elevated high. So you're excited about the breeding.

You're excited she's in pup. you're excited the pups are born and then it can just all come crashing down. So it's not just like you're living normal life and then you have a bit of a blip and one of the dogs isn't right. You're like really flying high and then like someone just comes and punches you in the gut. And with that litter, yeah, I really struggled because, well, I didn't struggle. just, emotionally, it was really, really draining because the litter was born.

All pups had their guts born on the outside. So I was already at disadvantage to try and keep these pups alive. think I, four were born, I brought home three. I think they all died within the first week, if I remember correctly. So having that whole week of torment of trying to get these really precious puppies to keep them alive was traumatic. Then it was traumatic because of the financial repercussions of...

frozen semen, TCI breedings, the bitches had a C-section and I've absolutely nothing to show for it. And I'd paid for this torture. That's what it felt like to me. It wasn't even the fact that I'd just lost the money. Because I think I would have preferred to have, I say to everyone, I would have preferred to have put it on my front doorstep and just let people come and take it without the emotional trauma that I had endured in the process.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (34:14)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (34:16)
but I kind of feel like I had this emotional torment at the same time. And then it was telling the news to the stud owner that it all fallen over because they were excited as I was. Yeah, the bitch had gone for a C-section and then had no pups to rear and yeah, it was just really, really tough. and I just thought, right, let's just get through this. And then what made, and...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (34:27)
tough.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (34:38)
What made it really, really tough is that there was a reason why that happened. And I had checked with two different vets to make sure that didn't happen and it still happened. So that was an entity I had to take on board that I learnt that professionals can tell you their opinion and give you advice. But I don't know, sometimes you just really got to go with your gut feeling. And then what...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (35:02)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (35:04)
What made it even more harder is then the stud owner said, do you want to try again? And then, so my head was like, no, do we this all over again? Do we change a few of our protocols? Or do I want to put myself through this all over again and the same could happen all over again? So then, yeah, I just got landed with a really big dilemma of could this happen all over again? And I did it again. Like, end of the story, people.

I did it again. yeah, I got, And so what I did learn from that was probably a really, that was a really big make or break time for me. Cause I'd had quite a few, bits of bad luck and stuff, just not working out with the dogs and some of the plans that I had. And then that literally felt like, mate, talk about kick me while I'm down and trying to do something really amazing here and it's not working. So should I be doing it? So anyway, I went again.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (35:32)
Don't give up on your dreams.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (35:58)
And yeah, I've got two bitches out of it, two amazing bitches out of it. And now I'm, yeah, generations past that. And that whole situation probably has had a huge impact on my vision now for the future for my dogs. That now I'm just like, mate, I'm trying everything. Like there is no challenge I probably wouldn't take on in regards to how difficult I could make my dog breeding.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (36:24)
Yeah,

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (36:25)
So now I'll...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (36:25)
yeah, because you've been at rock bottom. You've been in the lowest depths of low. So you know what that can feel like. And actually you've taken it as a massive learning curve. Hats off to you. It would have been enough for a lot of breeders to hang up their, what's that? Hang up their, hang up their, hang up their dog leads. I don't know.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (36:42)
Yeah, what do we hang out?

No, it needs to be breeding related. Like, are we hanging up? Yeah, I don't know what we're hanging up. A puppy pen and a heat lamp.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (36:53)
your pinnies, yeah, don't know, hanging up your heat lamp for good.

Yeah, it would have been enough to put a lot of people off forever and yeah, it's just, as you said, it was gutting for you and even watching you go through that was really tough because there's nothing that anyone can say to you.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (37:12)
yeah i think

i think i sure i have one crying where I my god i'm cry don't ask me she's okay i would ask her thank you yeah it was hard it was hard

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (37:20)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and a really tough moral of that story that I sort of took on as a bystander as such was you can put your biggest trust and faith into professionals around you and just because they've got the badge, the qualification, they're just giving you opinion and humans do make mistakes and even if you go and seek a second opinion, if it doesn't feel right...

Go and seek a third, fourth, fifth, and it was awful that you had to learn that that situation could unfold when you placed your trust in...

people that you'd never expect to have an issue with.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (38:09)
Yeah, in my regards, would deem high caliber professionals to rely on from breeding practices. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't know, maybe there's not been enough research in it, maybe they've been misinformed. But we have seen, collectively, we have seen some professionals where it does end at, they just do...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (38:14)
Yeah. Top of their fields. Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (38:33)
the thing that you're paying them for, even though they might have knowledge that surrounds it, they don't necessarily pass that knowledge on. Which is sad because equally I've been, you know, even in the last two weeks, been to a vet for a TCI and I was in there an hour and a half, the stuff we talked about was absolutely insane.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (38:34)
Yes.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (38:52)
There are some vets that just like once they meet someone on that level playing field where they're just like, my God, I've got tons of extra information that like it's worth you knowing, because it might help you at some point. So it's a shame there isn't more people out there willing to do that. It's not just the service. It's, you know, had a big conversation about supplements, microplastics, decreasing fertility. well, it was crazy.

jujitsu, snow, like the whole, and also a joint client. I've had a difficult case in that I'd referred to him and we went through that piece by piece as well just to have a plan of action for that client. So yeah, it's amazing when you do meet somebody. I'd rather someone just go, do you know what? I haven't got a clue. I think it might be this. You can go away and read about this or read that.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (39:47)
Yes.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (39:49)
I'd have so much more respect for somebody that did that than just not say anything because you're just paying for a service and they're going to do the service and take your money and off you go. And we even know how people here in the UK, they will do a TCI trans-cervical insemination and some vets will be very strict on their protocol, what happens after that point. And some vets will not mention a thing to those owners.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (39:51)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (40:18)
They both had TCI's. They're both reproduction specialists. Why are they not given the same advice? It's strange to say the least.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (40:20)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (40:27)
And obviously, like we said, there's opinions, which is fine. But I don't know, maybe there should be a bigger sort of conversation of, this is why I do it this way. And so if you do hear people do it another way, they can probably explain why they do it that way. But they don't say that, they just go, it's done. Off you go. Thank you. Yeah. OK. That seems a bit different.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (40:37)
Yeah.

See ya. Yeah.

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough when people are, especially when you think people are going to specialist vets or well-renowned vets for specific treatments. It's a bit disappointing really when you hear that they haven't got the level of service that you'd expect. And if you've been let down by one, especially as traumatic as the situation you found yourself in, that's really tough because dog owners,

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (40:49)
Like, I've-

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (41:15)
what would we do without our vets, crikey, they're our lifeline and what would we do without them? We'd be stuffed. So we do adore our vets and we all probably have great relationships with our vets and then when something like that goes wrong, when you sit back and reflect, that's quite challenging actually that you have placed your trust in somebody with your pet's life and it's just not really gone to plan.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (41:40)
And then it makes it, you have to, once you learn those lessons, then sometimes it can be seen that you're being awkward or difficult because you don't want to do that again. So now you're going to proactively make sure that doesn't happen again. And then offence can be taken because you're strategically making sure you don't fall into that trap, but they're aware that it might be different to their usual protocol.

So it all becomes quite difficult. So I think having a solid source of, expectations and flexibility is really difficult. And I also think that sometimes, as with any professional, some people just do it because it's a job.

And some people do it because they're really passionate about it and they will continue to, I mean, that's why CPD exists, isn't it? Continued Professional Development, because they want you to carry on evolving and developing and learning in the profession that you're in. And some people just hit the minimum threshold where other people, they're reading extra information about it. They're reading papers, they're writing stuff, it's just crazy because they're all in, they're so passionate about it that...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (42:21)
Yep.

Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (42:49)
that passion then rubs off on you as a client. So it's those type of people you need to find. they, yeah, that we do love and they do exist.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (42:54)
we love.

They certainly

do because that's why I adore working alongside you, Sara, because you will never stop learning. we come to each other on a weekly basis where we go, hey, we've just heard this or this has happened. And we're always sharing stories and exchanging lessons, whether they're not even ones we've learned ourselves, whether they're from our clients. And it's so powerful when you come together with like-minded people that are all in the dog world, highly passionate.

it's a really powerful force and it's so important to find your... so cliche... so important to find your pack when you're breeding because you need to find people that you can trust to bounce off not even necessarily whether you think their opinion is always 100 % correct I totally understand that there'll be things I say sorry and you think oh my goodness sorry what and there'll be listeners thinking oh my goodness I don't agree at all with some of the things that we say and that's absolutely fine

We are just sharing our opinions and our life experiences and the more you share and learn the better really.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (43:58)
Well, that's just being an adult, isn't it? Being able to still communicate with someone that you don't necessarily agree with, because there will be other stuff that you will agree with that you will take huge benefits from, even if it's not that particular subject or topic. And I think this is probably why the Facebook groups are so popular, because people are trying to find their group. They're trying to find the people that...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (44:01)
Yes.

Yeah

Yes.

Yes.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (44:23)
can support them that do understand what they've been through and offer some really sound advice. I mean, there's other people that just want you to agree with whatever they're doing. And they will ask, they will continue to ask the question until they find the one person that agrees. So it does take all sorts. But I think that's why these Facebook groups are so popular, because people are trying to find their crowd. And it's not like you can, your vet's not the one because

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (44:33)
Yeah.

Yes.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (44:51)
If you need them, you're going to have to book an appointment and go and see them. And it would be a weird thing to put there is a stigma about being a dog breeder. So a lot of people don't want to put their hand up and say they are. So they're doing anonymous posts in the Facebook group instead and try and get advice that way. So, yeah, I think it's definitely like a well, they are called for help because that's why they're asking questions. So it is sad that it isn't constructed better, which kind of brings me on to

What we have kind of mentioned about is that our memberships, which yours is up and running and mine soon to be,

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (45:27)
It is,

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (45:27)
This is one of the main motivations of our memberships is that if you like us and you like our outlook on dog breeding, then we should be part of your tribe. So Isobel, I both have our own communities that we're just trying to support like-minded people. And we are both, proactive people. We try to not drop the ball. We try to...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (45:38)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (45:49)
identify the problem before it needs fixing, because in the long run, that will save you a vet bill typically, at best, at best, like at best. And like you say, we do like to continue learning and we are passionate. So I guess that's why we're always just trying to share the information. I definitely as a Canine family planner, that's one of my key roles is to sort of

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (45:56)
Yes, most certainly at best.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (46:12)
share information that I learned from other breeds because there's different pockets of people doing things and actually maybe we need to integrate a bit better and yeah share those practices because they will benefit. So yeah like the memberships are part of that community so we will share more information on that at some point I'm sure in ultimate episode.

But yeah, like, and this is a form of that knowledge sharing. That's why we do the podcasts. Not as it's definitely, it's not because we like listening to our own voices, because both of us definitely do not. So we're like, yep.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (46:40)
Yeah, yes, we enjoy it.

I can't stand the sound of my own voice. cannot stand the sound of my own voice. I remember...

god, no. I don't think I've even... I don't think than proofing the episodes before launch, I can honestly say I have never listened to the back because it just curls my toes the sound of my own voice.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (47:02)
Yeah,

it's a full on, yeah, I'm like, sounds so common. Pronounce your words correctly, Sara, seriously. it's not an egocentric driven adventure.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (47:11)
not at all. We

could not be further from those types of people. It's purely we love to talk dogs and the conversations we have are in such fine detail and of such value we just thought we should be recording them and sharing them with other people that can gain benefit as well.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (47:15)
Yeah, it's just...

Yeah, and that they can listen to before they go to bed. Yeah, and in the bath, yeah. Not at all. What were some of the learning lessons? What did you have as a learning lesson apart from watching me go through hell?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (47:31)
Or in the bath I've heard as well, again, not really what I'd choose to listen to the bath.

um

i've had one puppy that's been known to be the biggest challenge for me and that was well over a decade ago and i was managing two hour feeds all through the night for days and days on end i was sleeping downstairs

no problem, up in the day. I took it all to my stride. I look back now and I think oh my goodness me, I have one too many grey hairs to handle that. Not that saying I wouldn't, of course I'd do anything for any of my dogs or puppies but it definitely takes its toll on me now and I don't think it's, it's definitely not as easy as people imagine it to be. Particularly when I see like new breeders wanting to breed. It's great, you know, without breeders we wouldn't have our dogs which...

We need breeders. So we always need new people coming and joining, but it's just, it's a marathon, not a sprint. It is genuinely an endurance test of can you last night or night or night of interrupted broken sleep with only a few hours and off the back of that, how important a support network is. Particularly in that first three weeks,

As you mentioned earlier, puppy brain is real. And I know Sara, I remember voice noting you about the most silly of things and you're like, Isobel, sorry, just play that back to yourself and you know the answer. Because sometimes it's just having somebody to bounce off that you fully trust is invaluable. Not to mention having somebody on hand to make you cups of coffee at four o'clock in the morning when you're exhausted and you're winding puppies.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (48:57)
Mmm.

You

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (49:20)
or you're milking near on mastitis off a bitch at three o'clock in the morning for what feels like forever and a day. These are tough situations to be in and if you've not got somebody to sort of gee you along and pick you up when you're feeling down, it is tough. So I would say if you're heading into this and your girl's about to have puppies, just make sure that you've got that support network, whether or not that is...

husband, wife, older children, parents, best friends, or do you know what, if you don't really have anyone like that that understands, then something like one of our memberships would be fantastic. So you've got that camaraderie of other people in your corner when you just need someone to pick you up and you're down. Because even when things are going great, it does feel quite emotionally draining from the exhaustion. So it was a bit of a long lesson I learned about myself there. Long and short of it, I get tired.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (50:12)
Well, like I say,

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (50:15)
ha

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (50:15)
but sleep deprivation is a form of torture. that's the whole point of all the stages of sleep, isn't it? Cause your body has to renew itself. So puppy brain is most definitely a thing because your body is not cleansing itself, is not renewing itself. So you're getting this brain fog and then you start losing perspective and then you can't

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (50:24)
Yes.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (50:34)
think clearly. So yeah, I have no doubt I'm sure there must be some clinical, you know, definition and symptoms to it because it's got to be a thing. It's not made up. It's just not that were overtired and dramatizing. It's a real issue. So yeah, I always say to people, make sure you get all your sleep before you start. And I say to people like the first four days,

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (50:41)
Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (51:02)
is pretty easy because you're just running on adrenaline. It's when, yeah, after that, when you go, no, this is real. I've just got to carry on doing this stuff now until they go eight weeks old. This is my life now. So, yeah, I guess it's a big responsibility. If you haven't had children, then that's like the next biggest responsibility you have is to nurture these newborns.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (51:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (51:29)
until they are ready to flee their nest and go to their new homes and just be thankful it's eight weeks not 18 years it could always be worse and that you didn't have give birth to them yourself your dog did that bit. What were some of the comments? Did people come back mainly with sleep or did they learn loads of other amazing things?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (51:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Loads of people have

got involved which is lovely to see. Top ones made me laugh because it's so relatable. Yep, I have learnt a lot about myself. I'm soft as shit and get very emotionally attached to every single puppy. Yep.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (52:06)
Fair enough. Yeah, Isobel keeps every dog she's not meant to keep. Isobel, you're not keeping that one. You know, I want it though. And then, and I made it and then a year later she's like, yeah, maybe that wasn't my best choice. Maybe I should have picked a slightly different, yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (52:06)
resonate strongly.

Yep. I have-

I want it, it's cute and it's fluffy and it's small.

You're the

only person in the world that I'd admit a mistake to so I'll take that as a con-

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (52:32)
yeah, the other half can't hear this, cause God forbid.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (52:35)
No,

no, fortunately they don't listen to the podcast, we're all good.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (52:40)
What are the comments?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (52:41)
Somebody else has commented saying, I learned that I can survive on very little sleep. I can do all the things required even with COVID and zero help. I learned preparedness and organisation, however, are absolutely essential. It's only because I spent weeks in preparation that I managed to deal with such a large litter. So that's interesting because she's almost said the polar opposite of what my learning lesson was.

However, she said that she spent weeks preparing and organising, so the level to which she may have done so is potentially off the richter so we could be talking meals in the freezer, help books for night times, all sorts, so don't know.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (53:19)
Exactly. depends.

Yeah. But like we just said about being prepared and trying to prevent the problems in the first place. she's obviously in a certain dynamic. Like she said, she's done it by herself. So she was obviously aware of that being a potential issue anyway. So she's she's pre-planned and then that's gone in her favour. And there is something to be said about when there is no one else to help you who's going to do it. No one. So.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (53:34)
Yes.

Yep. Yep.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (53:46)
She's obviously accepted that and she's put in some really good provisions to make sure that that didn't happen. So yeah, she sounds awesome.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (53:54)
yes she does. somebody else has commented here it made me laugh. sleep deprivation is a real thing and can even make your periods late. there you go! what more scientific proof do we need? after us saying there must be literal symptoms.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (54:07)
I am so stressed that's not happening. cannot, that cannot be a thing I need to worry about as well as these puppies. You must be joking. Not an option. That's funny.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (54:09)
Yep.

Absolutely.

A few people have commented saying, yes, I've learned that, I loved it, but I'll never do it again. There's quite a few comments actually. Couple of people have commented on the side effects and symptoms of the extreme stress and side effects. So someone said here that they have incredibly vivid nightmares. Oh, that's a, that's one I've not, wouldn't have expected.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (54:39)
Well, they're just brain activities, probably just not switching off, is it?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (54:39)
it.

Yeah, yeah, and adrenaline

as well. Like we were saying, it's that adrenaline and that's what causes crazy, crazy dreams and not being able sleep properly, so.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (54:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, night terrors, night terrors from rearing a litter. That is like...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (54:51)
a other people have... yeah. i'm not sure what's worse, the night terrors of getting up to do a puppy feed or the night terrors of

while you're asleep. it's same same.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (55:01)
I always do think every time I have a litter, I'm like, why did I do this? This is like self-inflicted pain. Why, why did I do this? I could have just...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (55:09)
It's because you forget all

of the... you do forget all of the tricky emotional points and you just remember the sunshines and rainbows because they are so gorgeous when you're doing it as part of a bigger picture and there's motivation behind what you're doing beyond just...

let's stick x and y together to get b. that's why. because it is so rewarding and it's so special and that's what a lot of other people have commented on here saying expect the unexpected but i loved absolutely every second that wasn't tricky. a lot of people have commented the same thing basically saying the whole time that it's going amazingly is the best experience in the world and so rewarding. i think it is it's you can't feel

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (55:30)
Mm-hmm.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (55:52)
The highs without the lows in life and I think breeding is a really extreme version of that roller coaster. The highs are really high and the lows can be really low because we all love our dogs and hopefully all of our listeners are on board with us here that we are massive dog lovers. So to see your dog or their puppies go through any type of difficulty is really, it's really emotional, really emotional.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (55:59)
Yeah, it is.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:16)
We just want the best for our pets, don't we? And I think breeding really hammers that home.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (56:21)
So basically, it's an escape room that we set up for ourselves for eight weeks long once the pups are born, but it starts before that point anyway. it's a real life escape room that we've self-inflicted on ourselves. We've made for ourselves. So yeah, that sounds about right.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:38)
But I mean,

people pay good money for escape rooms. Escape room's a great day out.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (56:41)
Yeah,

a day, yeah, not weeks, a month. Well, it's good, it's good that...

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:46)
Well, yeah, that what

solitary isolation is in high security jails?

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (56:54)
Yeah, I wonder what the mental toughness is of breeders and if we were then put into like these really traumatic experiences, how we would cope. Yeah, it'd be interesting, isn't it? Yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:58)
tough. Tough.

It's a test of resilience.

It definitely is a test of resilience. Or on one hand, or you've got the people that are so naive and happy go lucky in life that they maybe don't notice the intricacies of actually what's going on so they maybe don't get stressed and don't feel the turmoil of the lows if they don't notice they're happening.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (57:26)
be a nice place to be. Doesn't sound very responsible, but it sounds a nice place to be. Any other comments before we wrap this session up? No.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (57:30)
No, it doesn't sound very responsible.

No, I just thought it was a really

nice way to reflect and I'd love to hear what you guys feel that you've learned from your first litter or last or a poignant litter in your breeding history because as we always say it's lovely to learn from one another so if you fancy joining in the conversation please please do come and join our Breeders Brew community page on Facebook and it's called exactly that the Breeders Brew community. Come and join it's private

private Facebook group so you've got no prying eyes from outside of the community and we are all proactive dog lovers so your questions comments and thoughts will be landing in good company.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (58:16)
also, you can, if you have a question, email our email inbox, podcast@breedersbrew.com. So we're going to do more of these type of series. So we're happy to start collecting some questions so we can accurately answer them for the people that listen, basically.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (58:32)
Yeah, yeah absolutely. No we

really look forward to getting you involved so come join.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (58:38)
That's it.

Yeah, come join us. So it's a goodbye from me.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (58:43)
and a good bye from me and the noisy sausages.

Sara - Canine Family Planner™ (58:46)
Until next time, bye!

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (58:48)
Until next time,

bye.

Sara Lamont (58:51)
We hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did recording it. I'm sure you've probably worked out by now that not all Facebook whelping groups are made equal. We strongly recommend you come and join us by simply searching Breeders Brew Community on Facebook and requesting to join the group filled with proactive and passionate puppy practitioners.