Q&A: Special Guest, Jodi!

In this special Q&A episode of Breeders Brew, we’re joined by Jo from Northwest Breeding Services, bringing together three passionate and experienced breeders to tackle some of the most hotly debated topics in dog breeding today!

🔥 Expect lively discussions, differing opinions, and hard-hitting truths as Sara, Isobel, and Jo dive into:

✅ The Great Pig Rail Debate – Are they a lifesaving necessity or an outdated myth? Hear the strong arguments on both sides from seasoned breeders!

✅ C-Sections: Necessary or Overused? – The hidden risks of elective C-sections, the importance of mentoring and monitoring, and why some breeders may be jumping the gun too soon.

✅ The Truth About Overnight Supervision – Should breeders always stay awake with a new litter? Can technology like cameras really replace hands-on care?

✅ The Dangers of Taking Facebook Advice – Why context matters and how misleading advice can put puppies at risk when given without full understanding.

✅ Paddling Pools as Whelping Boxes?! – A discussion on breed-specific needs, maternal comfort, and the right environment for whelping.

Throughout this conversation, one thing becomes crystal clear: there is no one-size-fits-all approach to breeding. Every breed, every bitch, and every breeder is different—making education, mentorship, and experience absolutely vital.

📌 Helpful Links from the Episode:

🔗 Join the Breeders Brew Community on Facebook – A safe, supportive space for responsible breeders to share experiences and ask questions.
👉 Search Breeders Brew Community on Facebook and request to join.

🔗 Want to hear more? Have a question for a future episode?
📩 Email us at podcast@breedersbrew.com

🔗 Find Jo and Northwest Breeding Services:
👉 Website: www.northwestbreedingservices.com
👉 Instagram: @northwestbreedingservices

💡 Help us spread the word! If you found this episode insightful, please like, share, and recommend it to fellow breeders. Let’s work together to raise the bar for responsible, ethical breeding!

===
Love the podcast? Get even more as a Brew Crew member → www.breedersbrew.com/brewcrew

Follow us @breedersbrew

Transcript

Sara Lamont (00:26)
In this Q &A episode, we're thrilled to be joined by special guest Jo from Northwest Breeding Services. Together, we dive into some hot topics in the breeding world, including the do's and don'ts of whelping setups resulting in a very heated debate about the use of pig rails. Not to mention three different perspectives on how we prepare for the unexpected, like C-sections and those tricky sleep-deprived first nights.

This conversation highlights how no one size fits all solution exists and why context, education and membership are key. Just to give you a heads up, this was around the kitchen table recording and I've done my best to enhance the audio, but some parts, no surprise when we're all talking at the same time or laughing.

has resulted in some audio quality that has either been lost a little bit or merged. With that said, I'm sure you're still enjoying the listen.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (01:17)
we're so excited because we are filming this particular podcast episode with an incredibly special guest that we have visiting us from over 250 miles away who is the fantastic Jodi

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (01:30)
The one and only.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (01:34)
would have been a giveaway.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (01:35)
So where you from Jodi? Tell us a little bit about your business and why we're friends.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (01:41)
That's

so unfair. We're friends because I made you my friend.

Yes, totally and forced So I started Northwest Breeding Services around the same time as Sara started Homescan. So we've shared the good, the bad, the ugly, the blood, the sweat and the tears, haven't we, over the years. I have driven 250 miles to sit with these two guys because most of our friendship and sharing is over the phone and over very quickly recorded messages. So every now and then, make the journey and come visit.

inflict myself

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (02:12)
And so you are a dog owner. What's your dog expertise?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (02:17)
So we breed and show Bulldogs I inflict my Poodles on my husband. The children have a Chihuahua. I've recently acquired two Cocker Spaniels and a partridge.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (02:31)
and a pony still has four legs and a tail

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (02:34)
Yeah, the pony don't count. She's really easy.

And do you know what? Actually, when I started with the pony I was a bit like I know absolutely nothing about horses. They're not that much different to dogs. They eat one end, they shit at the other end. make you worry constantly. So not that much different.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (02:50)
You

So yeah, it's not that

fair enough. Well, welcome. Thanks. So this series, is a Q &A session. Yeah, Q &A session.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (03:03)
An opportunity, especially with the three of us sat here, to pick one another's brains and we will have an incredibly different views on life, values, upbringings, areas that we've been brought up in, breeds that we own or have been brought up with. So I think we can all offer really interesting different perspectives on what's going on in the world of breeding.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (03:24)
Basically recording the conversations that we have on a daily basis. It's like the top and bottom really ain't it

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (03:28)
Yeah,

very much so.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (03:31)
Have you seen this? Have you read-

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (03:34)
screenshots sent. Screenshots. Who wants to go first with the first? So basically we've perused Facebook

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (03:38)
you reply to this?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (03:45)
that can be useful, but could be critical and possibly dangerous in the advice that they give without the full context and not knowing who you're taking advice from. So, yeah, we're to work through some questions and the genuine.

as far as we know real life people not trolls have asked in these groups and then we're all going to give our two pence worth of whether we agree with it we do something different and as I say yeah we're all from different backgrounds so just even with me and Jo having the same breed doesn't mean

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (04:16)
I regularly

disagree.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (04:17)
Yeah,

we quite often disagree, yet we're still friends. Imagine that maturity in a friendship. Unbelievable. the usual drill, we have dogs free roaming, lots of dogs free roaming, so you're going to hear them in the background and you're just going to have to take it as part of the ambiance. The archers, isn't it? Open and close doors

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (04:36)
It's the natural soundtrack.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (04:38)
was say natural atmosphere.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (04:43)
Right, wants to start with their question?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (04:47)
So one of the first ones that I picked up was it was a question from a brand new breeder with newborn puppies it didn't say what the breed was do you leave pups with mum and go to bed? There was something like 250 odd comments on it quite a few generic kind of comments on people that stay up with their pups depends on the breed

One lady put a really nice comment and I'm sure she meant it as a really nice comment but it made my bum twitch was that she'd put on the post that she'd had 8 or 10 litters, she's had 60 or 70 puppies, never missed an hour's sleep, always left her bitch with the puppies, always left her other dogs free roaming so they're running out of the whelping box and everybody got on really well. Basically it was Waltons Mountain.

in this lady's house and while that I'm sure works very very well for this lady, as I say it made me bum twitch at the advice that was given there. Because there is so much that could go wrong with that situation. I almost feel like it's one of those when you do a driver awareness course and they say look at all the hazards and list them all, I want to draw circles.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (05:42)
No

And here and here and here.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (05:55)
My brain that procrastinates and worries about absolutely everything will keep me awake with that comment.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (06:00)
what would be your advice? What would you do? What's your standard protocol?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (06:05)
Again, it's difficult, well it's not difficult, because I think we're Bulldog breeders first and foremost, we probably become more anal and go above and beyond because of the breed that we breed. We're with them 24-7 with the Bulldogs. When I started breeding the Poodles, I did exactly that with the Poodles, and I must admit after day sort of three or four, especially with my miniature Poodles, mum looks at you like, what the hell are you still doing here? And I'm like, I must sleep with you.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (06:32)
You

know, that puppy squeaked

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (06:34)
I had to make sure you got up to it. So I do stay in the same room. The toy poodle is amazing because she's my little best friend so she's at the side of my bed anyway.

But yeah, I think especially if it's a first time litter, it's a first time mum, I think this lady's comment obviously works very well for her, but I think she needs to maybe, and when we're commenting on social media posts, we need to maybe look at the wider picture of what advice we're giving to people and maybe tailor that advice. You know, she could say, I've never had a problem, but you personally, this is your first litter, maybe sleep for the first three, four, five days next to the box or.

stay awake with a Redbull next to the box or whatever. I just think the advice should have been tailored to the comment not.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (07:14)
we're the guardians, so we have to have the foresight of taking the best precautions possible, regardless of what somebody tells you online. And I also think about, it comes down to sort of three things, because it's the breed, you need to know the breed and how different breeds whelp and read differently. It's that person's individual skill and expertise. And what was the other thing?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (07:37)
What other dogs

you've got in the household? Yeah. you've got other dogs free roaming in and out of that area in the whelping area is that even safe to be left unattended anyway full stop whether it be day or night?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (07:39)
Yeah

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (07:50)
mean my

Bulldog girls are absolutely amazing together around the house under normal circumstances but last year we had two litters I think it was only a couple of days difference and my girls literally would have killed each other because they were so protective over the puppies so I know my girls and I know that they need their space and we separate rooms and things like that but I don't know I just think

The fear for me, and again as I've established already, I worry about absolutely everything and I try and tick every box and I just think that until we know whatever the breed is, you know could have Chihuahuas right the way up to Great Danes, whatever the breed is I think stay with mum, make sure mum's okay. I mean she's just had a massive hormone burst, you know she's frightened, she's... We assume that...

it's nature but when I brought my first baby home I put her down in the car seat in the middle of front room and was like what the hell is that what do I do now so surely the dogs feel the same way so I just think we owe it to them to yes all right we might lose sleep but stay up make sure they're okay then after the first couple of nights if you feel like that particular bitch that particular situation is safe then yeah by all means go to bed

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (08:59)
I always think that it's different for humans because we can read the book, watch the YouTube channel. No, no, no, at least you're like, you feel prepared. Dogs are going on pure instinct. have no clue what's about to happen, how they're meant to react, what puppies are they need to latch on. So as you say, they're going.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (09:04)
You still haven't got a clue.

They'll be in pain. It's got to be something, especially like, it's a regular one that I get the phone calls from clients. She's still panting. You know, she's given birth to all the puppies. I know she's finished, but she's still panting. Yeah, yeah, dude, she's gonna pant for the next couple of days, cause it hurts. You know, everything's contracting back again. Your hormones are dropping. Yeah, I just, for me, I'm next to that whelping box. Steve will be listening to this going, you're such a fibber, cause he

takes over on the night feeds but yeah I am even with the Poodles I am with them because I worry

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (09:49)
I'm gonna put a caveat out on this. many people that sleep with the dogs, the bitch, the puppies, know, sit up a camp bed and all the rest of it and whatever they do, whatever room. I think one of the benefits of living in a bungalow...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (10:05)
You go to bed, don't you? You go to...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (10:07)
I

don't go to bed because if I go to bed bed then I won't wake up, I won't hear anything so yeah I can't. But I think that is your dynamics again this is your situation I think I'm probably a fairly a bit more flexible because we're all on the same floor I don't feel that and I guess it depends where you put your puppies and where you rear them and stuff but yeah I would definitely wouldn't be on a different level to what they're on I need to know that I can and check.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (10:34)
that

have got amazing set ups with cameras and almost like a ring doorbell that as soon as the bitch moves it sets an alarm off and all this kind of thing. think whatever works for you is great and going back to my original point with this lady, having Walton's Mountain for want of a better word is obviously fantastic for her and works really well but I think when you're putting a comment on a group like this you've got to be really conscious that because that works for you

that could actually be a very, very dangerous situation for somebody else.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (11:06)
Absolutely not to mention the fact she could have...

three labradors two of which are 10 12 years old and of course they're not bothering the other bitch that's got a litter of puppies in which case she's singing i'll leave everyone free rome it wasn't long ago unfortunately not not someone i know all that well but i'd met through other social circles they lost an entire litter to another bitch that got into the whelping box four-day-old puppies whole litter of me dachshunds wiped out because one bitch got in the whelping box

I'm sure we've heard of another one Sara,

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (11:36)
It was the stud that got, so she owned both parents. The female went out for the toilet, to put a toilet break and so they left the pen open. He's gone in and he doesn't know what they are so he just ragged them all. He just thought they were toys and then she's come back in and whole litter is as dead.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (11:51)
So yeah,

as say, that's two miniature dachshund that we know of in, what, a year, two years?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (11:56)
I think the terrier breeds, they are sharper.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (11:59)
the sharper.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (12:02)
Yeah, a jack litter. The complete litter was wiped out by a what do call it, litter mate? The 12 month old pup from the previous litter got in with the puppies, assuming, playing, mauled them and wiped the litter out.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (12:17)
It does

happen. It really does happen. And this is the danger of taking advice off social media. This woman that's offered this lovely comment from the original poster, they gave no information on the breed, the age of mum, the other dogs in the household, her house set up, like you Sara, you're obviously in a bungalow, so you're saying that your bedroom's easily accessible to the new puppy whelping area. We know nothing about this original posters set up, anything.

So for this other woman to reply feedback saying, it's fine. Leave everyone to free roam and go to bed. It's frankly quite dangerous information when you don't know the context of.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (12:54)
It's other people reading that as well, that kind of thing, I mean there's 200 and odd comments on this particular post, so how many other people have read that and thought, you know what, I'll give that a try. I'll be trying to. That butterfly effect.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (13:04)
Yeah,

there's some crazy triangle, can't remember what it's called, there's a pyramid basically and it's for every one person that posts, it's like nine people will reply and 90 people will see it and read it but not technically engage with it but that's still sowed seed in their head that might be acceptable.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (13:25)
I just think we've got to be really conscious of the advice we give. mean, the people that come in the office and speak to us, you know, we're really, really lucky. The vets that we work with, the vet nurses that we work with, they're amazing. I mean, one of our vet nurses messaged me earlier about something that I wasn't 100 % sure of. I could message the vet, I could come back with it. But I will always give my advice. I'm using inverted commas. I would always give my advice and say, this is what I would do. What you choose to do is entirely up to you.

what the safe thing to do would be blah blah blah but because I've been doing it for a long time I can't think of an example now off the top of my head but that I might cut some corners somewhere but actually what you should do is and I'm it's probably the ADHD bit of me that fires off in fireworks of this is what you should do this is what you shouldn't do this is what but I just think these posts that as I say made me bum twitch because I just think it's so dangerous to put that out there in the world of breeding that

you can go to bed with a newborn litter and just leave them. I mean, not just for your pups. What about the bitch? It eclampsia You know, there's so many things that can go wrong in that first 24 to 48 hours that you need to be monitoring it. You know, if, forbid, that bitch needs, or one of those pups needs the vets in two or three days time and the vet needs a timeline and you've gone to bed for eight hours, like normal people do, you know, it's, you've no context.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (14:52)
And the person that's given that advice has no accountability and no repercussions? So why would you not just dish out whatever you want to say off the top of your head? There doesn't need to be any consideration or concern behind the comments.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (15:05)
So an answer to the question? No.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (15:08)
I don't sleep. Welcome to being a breeder.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (15:09)
Yeah, and if you're not gonna stay awake, don't breed your dog. Definitely don't.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (15:13)
Yes,

I'll have the whelping box in my bedroom next to my bed. Yes, I have a ring doorbell plugged into the whelping box. Yes, I have that ring doorbell feed on my phone that is next to the whelping box. It is two metres away. Yes, I still stay awake. So I'll get Steve.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (15:28)
Yes.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (15:28)
Thanks Steve.

My last Labrador in with me and I had to move bedrooms, didn't I, because they were so loud.

couldn't sleep with them, they were squeaking so much. Obviously they were healthy strong puppies. I just said, you know what, I'm actually going to sleep in the other bedroom because I can't sleep with you in my room, you're driving me crazy. old were they by this point? no, they were about, well, four or five days old. they older than I? I know, I can't remember. But they were... Yeah, no, they were all Obviously I do my daily weigh-ins, Jo, and I was happy with their progression. was all fine, she was heavily monitored.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (15:55)
enough they were fully

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (16:05)
I

kicked my kid bedroom when she was three weeks old because I couldn't bear to listen to her breathing.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (16:13)
Okay next question do you want to go one of yours Isobel?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (16:16)
why not? first thing i saw at the top of my news feed this afternoon when i was having a look was a poll from a new breeder they put up to try and get some answers to their question that is my dog in labour because she stopped eating

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (16:35)
guessing it wasn't a labrador.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (16:36)
I didn't say, well, she's assuming she's full term, she's just stopped eating.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (16:41)
no context on anything else the poll answers were yes my bitch always stops eating when she's in labour no my bitch eats the whole way through labour or no i'm not sure every girl i've had is different

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (16:53)
Wow.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (16:54)
Really useful.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (16:55)
I wonder how that actually helped her. she's gone on to group for advice and then has got every possible answer because...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (17:03)
just feel

like it's a chat GPT teaching this, like the more context you give, the better the answer you're going to get. So if there was more context to that, because all joking apart, I mean I don't breed Labradors, I've got clients that breed working labs that literally eat while they're in labour. So I've got more questions than answers to that one.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (17:25)
I've had miniature dachshund eat the whole way through. I've had miniature dachshund that refuse food 12 hours, 24 hours before. So even in the same breed and the same family lineage, you've got completely different answers.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (17:37)
I always

say it's always a question at Scan that clients will say how well I know she's in labour and it's the million dollar question isn't it like how you can give a tick sheet but it doesn't necessarily mean that every single one of those steps will be ticked some bitches drop I mean I had a bitch that didn't drop temperature at all so that's not something to be relied on but it's something to monitor you know does she eat, has she been sick, there's all these shoulda woulda coulda's rather than a concrete she's not eating

so therefore she's in labour and she was only mated three days ago, you know.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (18:10)
You have to build the picture, isn't it? It's the whole picture and I know that's hard when you're new to breeding because you don't know what all the pieces are. So I guess maybe the response, she would have seen what all the pieces are, thinking, no, she's actually not doing half of those things so that's fine or no, she's doing a lot of those things and maybe that means we are on our way. I guess what she does know is something's changed so something might happen.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (18:33)
Wow, that's a rabbit hole.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (18:34)
and obviously we didn't even cover like if she's on kibble is she just uncomfortable that she can't even eat the food even if she wanted to yeah

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (18:41)
Did she eat an hour ago? She's just

refusing to eat something now, like...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (18:45)
Yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (18:47)
So, in answer to question, no it's bitch dependent.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (18:50)
It's

bitch dependent, it's situation dependent. For me, questions like that, if you're a new breeder, I don't know how to say this nicely, but if you don't know the answer to that question yourself, you need a mentor. You need somebody like us that'll work with you, or you stud dog owner. I'm digressing here, but I'm going with it, because one frustration for me with stud dog owners is everybody wants to stud the dog, but they've never bred a dog in their lives before. Now for me, when you pay that stud fee, you're not just paying for the spunk.

you're paying for the support, you're paying for the advice, you're paying for the experience. So where's this breeders stud dog owner to give that advice and support? Who bred their dog? You know, go back to them for the advice and support. There's got to be, and again I'm going down an even deeper rabbit hole here, one of the biggest issues for me as a breeder is we don't tell people we're breeders.

We're ashamed of the fact that this is the industry that we're in. We don't hold our hands up and say we're breeders. Everybody goes to Facebook on an anonymous post giving little information to actually find out the answers. Put your hands up, hold your hand above the parapet and say, know what, I'm a breeder, help me. Or I want to be a breeder, help me. If you were going to be a hairdresser, you'd go into all the hairdressing salons in the village and say, can I work free for you, can I help? We're too busy keeping things cloak and dagger.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (20:01)
Yeah I think it's... I totally

agree with you and I think stud owners should be doing more to support their owners of the bitches that come into them and there are some really good ones out there and that's I believe you should... Oh yeah obviously in current company obviously both of them. I mean you as well, practice well please. But I know I wish...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (20:18)
us.

you

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (20:27)
I feel that some studs don't charge enough or it isn't clear if a stud is charging more the extra that they're giving as you say it's not just the dog sperm on the day it's the whole after service that some studs they will have a wait list for their puppies so if you're to go to a stud and they can put some amazing people in your direction for future puppies pay the extra money and use their dog in the long run that's going to be cheaper than running.

pets for home adverts and boosting them and this that and all the rest of it. We're going full circle in regards to you saying about the breeders, putting your hands up and saying you're a breeder. Yeah, there's a weird attitude in the UK about it at the moment. The Americans are slightly more open minded about it. But then you'll read some stuff online and I don't know if it's just because people don't know how to use the terminology, but then they start saying, I'm going to buy some stock.

and I'm gonna... and then you've gone too far the other way because now you're not saying they're animals it's all this investment and it just sounds like it's purely profit driven and and we're even people saying the market's dead what breed shall hop onto now? do not love your breed? that not... you not got a genuine passion to why you picked that as a breed or even that that's the breed that fits into your lifestyle and that's...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (21:39)
Yeah.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (21:48)
The only breeds you should be breeding is within that, but they just want to jump on the next high value dog, the next high value dog. So then it's hard. That's what makes people scared to go, I'm a breeder because you straight away are tarred with that brush.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (22:02)
Yes.

I don't know how we changed that.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (22:05)
No because some would say it's sort of like a perception and it's hard when you have people go if you say breed dogs go yeah but you get a load of money for that that's just the the the understanding of what's on the street is if someone breeds a litter they're going to make thousands of pounds like instantly like it's raining gold and it's all really easy so that's quite hard

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (22:26)
what breed?!

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (22:27)
And if they're friends and family, you haven't got enough time to educate them on breeding or the health testing and this and that and finding the stud and you know, it's a conversation that's come and gone and you feel slightly tarnished by it. They've gone away with a perception that isn't actually true. But equally,

there are breeders out there that find good people that appreciate their puppies and they know that they're not doing it for the money, they're breeding quality dogs but equally they're, why would they need to go and tell everybody else, hey this guy isn't, my breeder isn't like those breeders, they're like, because they're just happy with what they've got and they're living life and they've got their amazing dog and hopefully they go back to that person, so it's really hard. to get that message out that not

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (23:09)
the people that are shouting potentially for the wrong reasons that then get the spotlight on them and get a bit more work their way which then they're doing things for the profit and gaining the profit and it be a vicious cycle so I understand that there's a perception there but I also think it's everybody's responsibility to change that whether you're a stud owner a bitch owner both infrequent

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (23:21)
you

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (23:35)
I had a funny conversation with somebody the other day that joined the Breeder Club and as they were joining, filled in their application, they said to me, do you now consider me a breeder then? And I said, no, I consider you that you are breeding your dog, therefore, what is the noun if you are breeding your dog? You're a breeder. I'm not saying that you are

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (24:00)
really politely.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (24:03)
Breeder which is the way that the question was phrased to me and it was interesting so the answer is yes Yeah, not in the way that you're asking me the question and I think that's unbelievable that even between People in the same industry that help each other Yeah, there's still that panic there was panic in her voice as she said to me. Oh, do you deem me a breeder now?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (24:26)
Yeah, she's concerned. She's concerned.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (24:28)
I said no I think you're proactive you're asking for help you're seeking industry expert support I think you are an ethical dog owner yeah you're an ethical dog owner who is breeding your dog which makes you a breeder by now

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (24:45)
because that's almost like saying somebody that birthed a child isn't a mother. No you are. Regardless of... Yeah, and regardless if something happens later down the line, you're a mother. That's the title you now gained because you've been through that process.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (24:52)
But you were good with her on, no? Yes.

I mean I always use the analogy of, I get clients that come in the office and go, I'm not a breeder, I've just mated my dog this time, or this is only my fourth litter so I'm not a breeder. And it drives me nuts. And I'm like, well you might only drive your car on a Sunday and you might only drive to  Morrisons. You're still a driver, you're still driving, still have insurance, you still have to, you know.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (25:21)
They're

saying they're not a professional, so that's a different, they're saying I'm not an F1 driver. I'm not a commercial. Yeah. don't get paid to drive. And by saying I'm not a breeder, they're trying to say I don't get paid to breed.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (25:39)
But again, in any industry, oh we're going to have rabbit holes here, in any industry, is, you know, there's the Vidal Sassoons, the Sartonian guys of the hairdressing world that have gone bigger and bigger and bigger and better and want to make the millions. And then there's little Audreys at the bottom of Coronation Street that does the same person every week. They're all hairdressers. So there's commercial breeders, there's puppy farmers, there's good and bad in every industry, but...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (26:00)
Yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (26:00)
Yeah.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (26:08)
You're a breeder, if you breed your dog, you deliberately mate your dog or you have puppies from your dog, you are a breeder, hold your head up high and do it properly.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (26:15)
Yeah, I just couldn't imagine going to hairdressers and then they're going, not hairdressers, why have got scissors? Why are coming towards me then? Seriously? Step away. Do something else. But yeah, and obviously I'm guessing this is why part of the breeders license, you know, was to help, well was definitely for help, puppy owners trying to establish breeders that are...

meeting certain criteria to indicate that they have welfare and concern for their dogs and that they're going to do things by best practice. But then even that just seems to have added more complex. because then people are like, oh no, I'm definitely not one of those. And then the people that are registered, oh, so you're all breeded for money. No, it just so happens that they've fallen into that category because of the numbers of dogs they've got all because of...

having litters they might have in one particular year because of the council, the area they're in, they're so strict or whatever the reasons are. So I'm not quite sure that actually helped the situation.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (27:13)
No, I mean, I...

I like conformity so I actually really like the theory behind the breeders license. I liked the old fashioned dog license, I remember my mum having to go and license the dogs, you know. I like that, I just think it's been really badly implemented. Right from the top, the government right the way down. Everybody gets really naffed off with their local authorities. But to be fair to the local authorities, mean, as I was saying to you guys before, my licensing officer is a wonderful lady who is absolutely rushed off her feet.

licenses the taxi, she licenses the restaurant, she licenses the takeaways. She doesn't own a dog, she's been thrown into this with no training, so I think it's just been really badly implemented and implemented better would actually be a very good tool and I think it'd be a really good tool for regulating us as an industry.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (28:03)
Thank

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (28:05)
And I don't think if you do it properly and you actually look at it properly and if the licensing officers were trained properly and we could all help each other, it's not actually hard to get a breeder's licence. It's not hard to get your breeder's licence if you are breeding responsibly.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (28:20)
No, I just think it's more paperwork and a lot of people are just scared of paperwork. Yeah.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (28:23)
Yeah, they're scared of you.

Us for example

could support somebody in getting their breeders licence, if we knew how to get one because the local authorities don't know what they're doing, are you with me? If there wasn't that knock-on effect, if it was a simple procedure basis...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (28:37)
Yeah,

there probably needs to be levels to it and tiers to it and it just needs to be Everybody should be in it and then to what level and to what degree depends on the, as we keep saying, the circumstance, the breed, the situation. Because yeah, to me it's not fit for purpose at the moment. And I guess that's what happens when you have like an agricultural based legislation applied to domestic animals.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (29:00)
And as a representative of DEFRA actually said to me last year, we're more interested in putting food on the table than dealing with dog breeders. Don't put regulations in then that you're not going to implement.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (29:10)
Yeah,

unless we start eating dogs. No, I don't suggest that in any way. do my question? anything to add to that Isobel before we move on?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (29:18)
We really digress. What was your question again?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (29:20)
Does a dog stop eating when they're in labour?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (29:22)
We don't know. I suppose is the answer to the question. Without more context.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (29:25)
Every dog's different.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (29:27)
if I have clients in I'm sure you do exactly same, they start asking these questions, you're like, how about you talk to the breeder of your bitch? Because they've already bred the mum and they knew exactly what she did and they're probably going to answer those questions a thousand times better than some of the possible generic information I'm going to give on what I know about dog breeding rather than your specific breed. So think that's always an opportunity that's missed with people. They seem scared to go back to their breeders.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (29:53)
Yeah,

or the stud owner. What else have you paid for? It blows my mind when I hear these other conversations of people having paid for a stud and they come asking us for the answers, which is absolutely fine and we're more than happy to support people, but it's one part of the responsibility.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (30:13)
of what the charging for a stud fee.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (30:14)
I think there's a lot more awareness nowadays more than ever that it takes two to tango. The dog is as important as the bitch and the bitch owner is as important as the stud dog owner in the success of that combination and that pairing and that is beyond just a successful mating. That is, is it a good pairing in the first place? They're mating and then what happens next? Any stud owner worth their

grain of salt? Wrong analogy. Any stud owner would.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (30:46)
Spunk. Perfect.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (30:50)
Should

care about that that bitch's offspring because it's their stud's puppies

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (30:56)
So basically we say in take responsibility.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (30:58)
Yeah.

Next question. Me? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I'm just going to read this out verbatim. My girl has had an accidental tie. She's a pug. I know they can often need c-sections. So I'm planning things out. What's the average cost of a c-section? She's insured, but I want to have some extra money put aside. Good. Is a paddling pool good for a whelping area or not?

The one I have is inflatable. I will have more questions as the time gets closer, thanks. So, I mean, on this one, we know what breed. We know it wasn't intentional. We don't know what she'd been bred to, so we don't know. She's being proactive, isn't she? being aware that the breed could be prone to C-section. So I guess, first of all, the first question was, what's the average cost of a C-section?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (31:43)
Ha Ha

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (31:44)
Rabbit holes, rabbit holes,

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (31:45)
Pick a number.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (31:47)
Depends

where in the country you were, for a start.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (31:49)
Pick a chain, any chain.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (31:51)
Pick a time of day, any time of the day, weekends, holidays.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (31:55)
I mean, wow.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (31:56)
I'll kick off. I paid best part of £1,700 a while ago, a good while ago, which I thought was fair for an unplanned emergency C-section on a four kilogram dog.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (32:08)
What's been your highest and lowest? Your lowest? My highest has been, I think it was three and a half, but that was a bank holiday weekend. Yeah, emergency And my lowest, 1200.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (32:09)
three and a half highest.

vet, bank holiday.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (32:20)
But

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (32:21)
That shows you the...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (32:22)
That's called weights. Distance divided. Yeah, yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (32:24)
It's per weight, so if anyone ever looks at their breakdown of their vet's costs and looks at receipt, everything is itemised for that specific breed. if the breed needs additional help, the weight of that dog, etc etc, I'm sat here talking about a four kilogram bitch. What weight was your bitch Jodi?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (32:43)
No, so this isn't what I pay. This is very, so the three and a half thousand one was a Corgy What weight would a Corgy be? 15 kilos maybe?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (32:45)
you've heard of, okay.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (32:55)
Yeah, reckon about that. That's in 15 kilos.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (32:57)
Emergency c-section had to be done and the clients are lovely client and would do anything for a dogs I'm a wrong like that hit hard, but you know she she got it kind of thing I think one thing coming back ever so slightly with the cost of c-sections on that question was about the insurance Your insurance because not all insurance companies will cover you for c-sections

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (33:14)
Yep.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (33:20)
and some

definitely do.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (33:23)
Emergency.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (33:25)
It's your first litter out of a female, whether that's planned, accidental, provided that bitch has been covered by the insurance for X number of months as per your policy and depending on the policy, some insurances will happily pay out.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (33:40)
I mean you can get, I know Agria do a breeders policy. I've got a couple of clients that pay for a breeders policy. Now for me with the amount of dogs that I've got, and I've got more non-breeding pets than I've got breeding dogs, the policy was just extortionate. For me I just have my credit card on one side and the dogs get whatever they need from the card. I think that...

For me to have a litter with a potential need for a c-section you've got to have four grand on one side. Yeah. C-section vet bills, everything that I wouldn't, especially with those with the Bulldogs and you can put Pugs in there with the Bulldogs, I wouldn't have a litter if I didn't have in my head four grand.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (34:21)
Yeah, I'm assuming you need to c-section your money. Differently say with a Labrador,

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (34:26)
Is it different with a Labrador though because you can even have somebody that's been very experienced in all their breeding years and be unfortunate.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (34:34)
Yeah, well, we had that was a Labrador that was three and a half grand for two pups. Yeah. And because I think I scanned for three, one got stuck and they might have got it out and then knew there was more. So, yeah, I was shocked at that price for that breed and given the circumstances. But yeah, I think if you're breeding full stop, you need to know that you can pay for a vet bill in one way, shape or but then. Yeah, but then if you own dogs for.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (34:40)
Thanks.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (35:01)
stop. So you're just turning up the dial when you know you've bred and so yeah regardless of the breed that's always there the dial just gets turned up a bit more given the breed, given the size of the litter given maybe some previous experience that you had.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (35:02)
You need a way of it.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (35:21)
Circle

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (35:21)
you could have a beautifully self-whelping bitch out of a self-whelping line. Lo and behold she needs a c-section. It's so different to women. mean, yeah, we all forget we're all mammals. We all birth live young. Everyone knows somebody that had to have a c-section to give birth to their child.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (35:38)
and yet you get clients that come in and they get it you know the first thought is will she need a c-section you generally get asked that questions from your brachy breeds don't you you know the Frenchies Bulldogs, pugs it's very rare that a labradoodle client will say to me will I need a c-section and I don't know what's better or what's worse like Isobel says like with our breeds we've kind of got it in the back of our heads that it's more likely than not or

the Labradoodle breeder that is absolutely gobsmacked and in shock and doesn't have the money on one side or any way to pay for a c-section. So I think any breed you've got to be prepared for it or have insurance in place for it. But I think just because it's a pug doesn't necessarily mean she will need a c-section. Just the same as nobody would look at us three women sat here and go, well, she'll need a c-section, she won't. Nobody would know that.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (36:29)
No, you've got no way knowing if things go wrong they go wrong. You can have the most experienced breeder in the world need a c-section as you just said so I was one of your clients so...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (36:37)
And again, this comes down to I think the actual person skill set as well I mean I think I did well to avoid a c-section with a wedged puppy because I was willing

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (36:48)
knowledge and experience.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (36:49)
Yeah

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (36:50)
Yeah exactly to know where the line was basically and I don't think most people would have gone that far because they would have gone no no let's just get it to the vets I can no longer cope with this we need to escalate it so yeah the path of escalation is different for different people.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (37:06)
Yeah, there's thresholds of discomfort, tolerance, distress. It's at what point you know.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (37:13)
For the dog and the breeder. I've got some clients that when I listen to them, know, I do welfare visits 24 hours after the bitch has given birth and it's always a lovely, you know, they want to tell you all about the birth story and there's sometimes, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, dear God, why did you go for a C-section because you really didn't need one at that point. I wasn't there, you know, and I always say to my new mums in inverted commas, if you shit out and you go, I'm going for a section because I can't do this anymore, then you're doing the best for your bitch because you've lost your

bottles, therefore you haven't got the confidence to help the bitch properly. And of course at that point you get the vet involved, you know I've had experience of, especially with the vets that we work with, where the clients rocked up for a C-section and the vets go no no, here here have a cup of tea dear and sit in the back room and this bitch can do it on her own and the supports there. So I guess that comes back to the previous question, get yourselves a mentor. Make sure you've got somebody, be it your breeder or one of us, that will mentor you through.

I mean we had a client recently that had a really large literal labradors. He's a very experienced client. You know, he's been breeding a long time. I've got a lot of respect for him. But he was not panicking, that's the wrong word to use, but he needed that guidance and that support. Somebody to bounce off. So I went down, scanned the bitch, we saw where she was up to, top and bottom is it took her 72 hours to birth 14 puppies. Okay? Now anybody else? See you've got your mouth open.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (38:38)
Yeah,

I have.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (38:39)
Anybody

else would have gone for a c-section now where this breeder is very very lucky I mean again using a very commerce because he isn't looking he's built good relationships between me One of the vets that we're really closely working with so between the three of us the breeder the vet and me we mentored and we talked and we

got that bitch through whelping those puppies and she was amazing. She didn't need a c-section. You know, we all monitored the heart rates and I was back and forward scanning. She did go to the vets for the vet check. know, the vet was ringing every couple of hours and we were chatting it through between the three of us and that is one of my major success stories that I think anybody else would have gone for a section. What was better for that bitch and what was better for those puppies was to have that guidance.

that she didn't need this section, she was capable of doing it and she just needed a little bit more time.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (39:33)
Wow, 72 hours. Mind blowing.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (39:37)
You know, she was a labrador so she a full bowl of dinner while she was midway.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (39:41)
I think this is another, I'm gonna take this on a slight tangent, I think that people are trying to slot animal care into allocated time in their day and so a lot of people couldn't have been with that bitch for 72 hours because they've got to take the kids to school, they've got to go to work, they've got to do this and so they resort to surgery because with surgery they can fit, yeah it fits their convenience and it is

chicken and egg and I'm not saying one thing's right than the other but I've observed with just general pet care and people taking their dogs to the vets. Years ago vets would go you just crate rest them for this amount of time and know they're gonna need some support you're gonna have to take them out to the loo and whatever people are like oh well I work nine to five I'm not actually gonna be there so I can't do that it's actually easier the dog's insured anyway so it's gonna get paid it's actually easier for you to

take this dog in to do a four grand operation to give it back to me I do a little bit of care at the weekend by Monday is it's okay and I can go back to work and I think that's where we have to be careful with breeding we want to try and shoehorn, convenience it into our program and yeah and then and I think that's another thing people and obviously the financial side if you're not covered with the money and you know it's

Friday morning and the weekends coming, or it's a bank holiday and you're yeah, I just see C-section because now I'm not gonna pay double bubble when it goes into the weekend. Now I know I'm not gonna have out of hours and a vet I don't know that might not do it. Then I'm compromising the bitch and then I'm compromising.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (41:18)
only hole that I'm going

down with that is that we've lost that personal touch in the vet industry.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (41:22)
Yeah,

but we can't control as breeders, we can't control what that industry does and they are under their own pressures. And I do think they're getting a hard rap of it. So that's when people say, no, they're just money grabbing. They're not money grabbing. It's because you're busy and you want them to do the operation to fit your lifestyle. You've pressured them into that. That's the only way they can help you. But we can never change the vet industry because that's not within our jurisdiction. We just have to deal with the vets that we've got.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (41:40)
Hell yeah.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (41:50)
find some good ones that are proactive and have got time and understand their clients and their dogs and their motives and that kind of stuff but I do feel that sometimes we're trying to shoehorn nature into...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (42:04)
working.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (42:04)
Interestingly, slightly off topic, but in America they're seeing the highest stats of C-section babies, human babies, ever before and they are saying firstly it's because obviously medical insurance is a huge economic driving motor in America that they are spending hundreds of thousands on a year per person, family and everything else. So backhanded of well if the person's insured

why shouldn't that hospital charge the insurance that money to get that procedure done? Because they're not charging the person.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (42:38)
do in the C-sections not that the mother is requesting the C-section.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (42:41)
There's been a lot of studies coming out of America and obviously this is just purely some literature that I've personally read. This is not a professional opinion, I'm obviously not a doctor. It's just what I have read when I have done more research into it that c-sections are on the rise in America and it is firstly due to the fact that hospitals can get away with charging this money because it's not to the mother, it's to the mother's insurance company and secondly it's the convenience for the doctors.

They start their shift, they know that they are going to see section X number of women that day and those women can leave in on average X number of days from the hospital and then they can manage the care process from start to finish in a more convenient logistic manner, particularly around said holidays such as Christmas. Which I think is really interesting because dogs live in the same patterns, in the same lifestyles as humans, so anecdotal evidence.

can be taken from the American situation to some extent.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (43:40)
I mean I guess the difference to that would be that a dog wouldn't be c-sectioned unless it was took by the breeder

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (43:48)
I don't know,

reckon Spice could trot herself down to the vets knocking the door and go, come on, them out. Feed me first. And then she'd even carry them back in a basket, lay them all out, feed them, job done.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (44:00)
I think it's interesting when we do discuss insurances and things like that, are people more willing to pull the trigger when they're not the ones paying for it because in their minds it's all about the insurances paying.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (44:10)
I do think,

again, digressing ever so slightly, I do think that as...

breeders of brachy breeds think unfortunately with the success over the years of French Bulldogs, Bulldogs, the financial gain, the non-recognised colours, the boom basically of those breeds I think there's a lot of stigma around, you know, we get clients in that maybe it's their first litter, she'll need a C-section won't she? And that's because, you know, we were talking before about marketing and maybe the wrong people do the best marketing.

The best marketing out there was that this bitch is c-section. You can film your own bitch's c-sections and all this kind of thing. So it puts it out there into the world that these breeds have to have c-sections. They don't. I mean, we've got self-whelping bitches, Sara. Do you know? Bulldogs are capable of self-whelping. So I think that sort of stigma has to be battered down somewhere as well.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (45:03)
With a Bulldog, I've always said to people, they have very high pain thresholds. So they will be fine one minute and they will be dying the next. Like within an hour, it could have switched on you. And if people haven't got that skill set to recognise that, they're taking a huge risk. Agreed. And so again,

them understanding their situation of knowing their experience and their skill set, they're going to go, yeah, let's just go and in for a C-section. And if the price isn't a crazy price, let's just go and book in a C-section. Because worst off is that you have a bitch partly self-whelp, and now it's all the drama and the situation that they've never been before, with all the emotions and the anxiety. And then they're rushing to the vet, to the emergency C-section, paying twice the price for a bitch who's twice as tired.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (45:51)
Agreed. I think that the fear for me is that...

For me, feel the stigma around c-sections has been based on unscrupulous breeders that aren't bothered about the bitch and they just want to get the maximum amount of puppies out. I mean, we've always said, self-whelping, you're more likely to lose puppies because puppies that can't survive labour would never have survived life. C-sections, you're more likely to lose your bitch. And I think people jump to c-section, we need a c-section because it's a pug or because it's a Frenchie because the stigma around

is we need a c-section without actually understanding the implications of the the toll it puts on the body of a c-section the anaesthetics I don't like any of that situation especially for newer breeders it's major surgery and it's scary surgery and it's lots and lots of bitches are lost on the table for various different reasons so I think again I'm probably gonna give the same answer to all these questions but

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (46:35)
Nice, guys.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (46:49)
Find a mentor. Have a good relationship with your vet. Find a vet that is savvy with your breed that doesn't over anaesthetise your French Bulldog or your pug

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (47:00)
takes your Dax and Dim for a C-section at 11 o'clock in the morning and can't let them go until 4.30 in the afternoon because they're still barely up on their feet.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (47:08)
You know, puppies

that are cold and haven't been fed. You know, there's so many horror stories and this isn't blaming vets. I'm not vet batting here at all. I'm blaming...

I the breeders that believe something that they've seen on YouTube or believe the old wives tale of because it's a brachy breed it would need a c-section and I guess that's the connotation of this question will she need a c-section well just because she's a pug why are you asking that question you know it's and it's because we're made to believe that because they're a brachy breed they will need a c-section and that that's an easy way out and it's not there's risks both sides

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (47:42)
And the problem

is if you C-section you potentially cause more problems when it comes to actually rearing the I've taken a shortcut here and the pups have landed and mum's okay but now you've actually caused bigger problems into the natural hormonal paths, haven't been triggered, the cycles, now we haven't got milk production, pups are slow to come round because of the...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (48:03)
And pups

and two or three of them are dying, why are they dying? those pups might have died during labour. You've whipped them off the tree, the branches of the tree in that uterus.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (48:13)
Right, so the second half of the question is, is a paddling pool good a whelping area or have an inflatable one?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (48:20)
Are we projecting human emotion here?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (48:23)
Nothing to plan on filling it with water.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (48:25)
Wow. Well, what are they? mean... They've got the paddling pool, they're probably gonna have the pool noodles, as the pig rails. The music is...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (48:27)
Well, again, we need

My first, What

a good idea, it's easy to clean, it's washable but if any of my girls have anything to go by they're all over the shop. Good luck keeping them in a two foot paddling pool.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (48:48)
Yeah, what's your thoughts, Isobel

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (48:49)
breed specific?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (48:52)
If it's a Chihuahua, it's cool.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (48:54)
I miniature Dachshunds like a den, they're a burrowing breed. I'm not putting a miniature Dachshund in an open-topped paddling pool to give birth because that's just cruel. They like a cover over the top of their little den. That's harsh. No, frankly, to me, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I had this conversation with you only earlier today, Jodi. As far as I'm concerned, breed-specific traits, I'm ensuring that there is a lid of some description over any miniature Dachshund's box.

free whelping, obviously that you can get into. about a crate, I'm talking about, for example, A den, essentially like you used to build out of your, know, of your sofa. A blanket over the top of it so that you can move it if you need to get in. That should be on there for me and my breed from the minute she's in labour, make that a safe space, her den.

until perhaps are moving from their whelping box into the playpen because anyone that's got a minted accent they're probably sleeping in your bed they're under the duvet they are literally a burrowing breed so why would you expect her to be comfortable anywhere other than undercover in a den so for me no i'm vetoing the paddling pool

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (50:02)
Well, and they're probably gonna pop it aren't they?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (50:04)
I understand it's white, full great, I mean, you know, you've got, I don't know, Spaniel or something and fine.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (50:10)
Use

a paddling pool afterwards, inside your open box as your... Why do you need pig rails?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (50:15)
Yeah, but how do you have a big room?

would never ever not have a pig rail.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (50:21)
Well, we don't breed pigs.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (50:23)
Agreed. Even the mini Dachshunds that are four kilograms, literally tiny little dots compared to the weight of your girls, I'll be up the first three nights and I won't sleep, guaranteed. But the amount of times I'm sat up, middle of the night, drifting off whilst sat and I hear a squeak squeak squeak and it's the pig rail that saves that puppy's life. I'm still awake.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (50:23)
Yep, it did.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (50:46)
I disagree.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (50:47)
I'll put the pig rails in and go to bed. I know they're safe, I don't need to stay up all night.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (50:52)
That lady in Walters Mountain. No, totally disagree. My experience of clients that build these whelping boxes, with a pig rail, the breeding purpose of a pig pen and a pig rail is because pigs were kept in a really small environment, the mum didn't even have enough room to turn round and the piglets could get round underneath mum. We build these whelping boxes, massive, I mean that one that you showed me.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (51:17)
I disagree, think most whelping boxes are too small. From what I've seen online, most bitches are forced to lay in a particular position in their whelping boxes for new breeders if their experience is different because they've worked it out. But from the pictures I see online, most of the whelping boxes are too small for the dog. If they're Labrador size and bigger, if they're little breeds.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (51:36)
I'm

going to it, I'm talking about what I've seen. So for going doing welfare visits, going into people's homes to build these massive well-proven...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (51:43)
that's already attracting a certain type of person because they're willing to take you they want to be mentored but sorry anyway but

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (51:50)
know,

whatever the reason you've put the pig rails in there, people believe that you put a pig rail in a whelping box. You put the pig rails in the whelping box. So, Rhodesian Ridgeback for example, put the pig rails in, she had a perfect whelping box a few years ago, she had a perfect whelping box, her husband was a joiner and he'd built it, it was beautiful. All lined was plastic so she'd wipe it clean, yadda yadda yadda.

She went in the kitchen to make a brew, got distracted on the telephone, come back in, dead puppy. Why is the puppy dead? I've got pig rails.

The big dog, I'm showing you with my hands but you can't see me, the big dog had lay on the puppies in the middle to keep the puppies warm. Well this lady had assumed that her puppies were safe because she's got pig rails. I why would they not be safe?

I assumed because she'd got pig rails that the dog was safe.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (52:38)
not the pick rails.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (52:39)
It's the person's problem because she believes that... Exactly. So don't put pig rails in and you don't feel like you need to leave the box because they're not safe, they might get lay on in the middle. She believed that by having pig rails around that box that her puppies would be safe, that they would be able to get away from underneath mum. Pig rails do not keep your puppy safe. Being there with your puppies is what keeps them safe.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (52:41)
So it gave her full sense of security.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (53:01)
So

the issue is pig rails can give someone a full sense of security. So that is your issue with pig rails It's not that pig rails cause an extra level of risk.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (53:09)
They

don't, they know, the pig veils doesn't cause any risk, it just doesn't do any good.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (53:13)
just

throwing us out here anyone that's watching Jeremy Clarkson's I know we're not breeding pigs Jeremy Clarkson's farm look at the size of that pig pen that was on Jeremy Clarkson's farm the size of her pig pen den stye I don't know was that an igloo? was an igloo the size of her igloo was massive

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (53:28)
stye

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (53:31)
I'm getting

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (53:35)
I'm

taking an igloo, wow. Oh, I need more wine.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (53:41)
It was a massive igloo for the size of pig. If you actually imagined a Labrador with a litter of that size and comparatively the size whelping box were talking, that would have been a very large whelping box to the size of Labrador. So arguably you could say that pig, well that didn't need pig rails because look at the size of every area had and those piglets should have been able to escape. They can't. And the point is,

naturally they want mums want to lean against a wall for bit of comfort stability rest their heads rest their shoulders when they're leaning up against that and don't have pig rails that's where puppies not always but can get squashed if you imagine the perimeter of a you're more looking at more than 50 percent of the surface area of that box so by having pig you could say i'm reducing the chance of a puppy being squashed by 50 percent

because 50 % of the surface area, only 50 % of that surface area of is protected by the pig rails.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (54:39)
You could go down the route of some clients put blankets in the puppy bed and everything's absolutely fine and they're all nice and warm, all the people have lost. Would you always say that they always need to have blankets in?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (54:52)
No, I said no, I no, said said

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (54:55)
Some

die when they've got pig rails in and some die when they don't.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (54:58)
less dying with pig rals and no blankets.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (55:00)
yeah i'm saying puppies don't die when they're under a pig rail and mum rolls over when when their puppy is under a pig rail and mum rolls over they are not dying

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (55:08)
The kind of

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (55:10)
Don't die when the breeder is with them watching.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (55:13)
Agreed,

but when we've been up three four days as we've said we are very conscientious people we set days on end Exhausting gets us. I have fallen asleep sat up at my bitch's whelping box on more than one occasion at two three four o'clock in the morning when I'm physically I think

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (55:30)
I just don't believe that pig rails have a place in a puppy-whelping pen.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (55:36)
In my breed, I would never not have them.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (55:38)
yeah i

don't believe that someone can maintain that level of concentration on their dog where the rest of life revolves around them so i'd rather put an extra layer of protection in it's not removing my observation it gives me an extra layer in case i've missed something

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (55:57)
I'm not using it as a false sense of security. I'm not going, I've got pig rails so I'm gonna go and have a 20 minute shower and wash my hair.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (56:02)
doing this I know of three litters in particular that have had pig rails

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:08)
These are breeders that have used it as a false sense of security. They've got pig rails so I'm going to have a 20 minute shower.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (56:14)
How do know the pup was suffocated? Could have just died anyway. You're just assuming that then it was related to the...

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (56:20)
In what? No, suffocated

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:21)
In the pig rail.

not in the

exactly so that was in the 50 % of the whelping box that isn't protected by the pig rails that's what i'm saying if you imagine the surface area of a whelping box you've got 50 % in the middle and 50 % of the perimeter yeah no but i'm literally talking scientifically based on the literal ratio of a whelping box

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (56:37)
I just don't agree with that.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (56:39)
Great sharing.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (56:45)
How big's your whelping box? You're assuming that somebody's whelping box would have 50 % of pig rails. That whelping box that you showed me before of your client, the massive one. Oh yeah, hers wasn't. Exactly, so it's not 50 % of our whelping

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (56:59)
build my whelping boxes. I'm saying

pig rails around three and half sides of my whelping box so for me yes you look at the surface area of the whelping box it's then protected by pig rails you're pushing 50 % because if mum lies in any of those sections pups can escape yes if she lies right in the middle the risk factor is still there that's why i'm saying i don't sleep for the first three four five six seven

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (57:23)
Bitches

I've never witnessed a bitch lay in the middle and feed pups, which I think is a bit weird anyway. But I do fall all the way round. I'm not leaving any corner, not covered. And actually I found the bitches like it because they can rest with their head up on it. So then it still, it just, I don't know, it just gives more movability for pups.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (57:43)
Interestingly, we're three intelligent women sat around that have apparently that are very conscientious, adore our dogs as pets first and foremost, adore them like children. We have all been brought up with dogs, osmosis learning from our parents and everything else. We've got a lot of years under our belt here. We're not talking about

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (57:48)
Apparently.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (58:05)
a new breed that's having their first hit of putting pig rails in and using it as a full sense of security. We're saying we've heard the good, the bad and the ugly. We know the risks. That's why we're staying up days, Mend. So I'm putting the pig rail as an X. I think that's the difference.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (58:16)
Yeah, I think

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (58:18)
If

you're going to play it down that route, think it's the education on...

how big it, and again, my brain's firing off. If the breeder's license was actually more fit for purpose and you had, you know, like on the breeder's license, they tell us specifically if you have your dogs in outdoor kennels, what size the kennel had to be. If that breeder's license was actually breeder specific and told you what size of whelping box you should have for that breed, then I might relinquish and let you have pig rails. But my problem with pig rails is the fact that we don't breed pigs, we breed puppies and they're secure.

that it brings when you're an educated puppy rearer compared to a new person that builds a massive whelping box with pig rails around the outside that the puppies actually never touch because they never get that far until the four weeks old and then they get stuck under them. You know, it's not saving anybody.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (59:06)
Yeah, well let's just call them rails not pig rails.

Okay, so... No, I don't want do it like that.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (59:13)
Two versus one.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (59:18)
we need to end this episode. just to go back to the question, the final question, well part two of that question which was, is a paddling pool good for a whelping area?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (59:29)
i understand for the birth and the things that come out in birth and the mess yeah i understand the concept great i think it's so bitch dependent on whether they'll be happy in a paddling pool

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (59:31)
Baby.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (59:41)
Yeah, I think if they... it's a weird thing to then spring upon them that they weren't expecting. You're like, hey, now we're going to get you in this inflatable... Probably. And squeaky as anything. I Sambri, I'm not quite sure with the Bulldogs how they would take to that kind of business. They'd be like, the sofa is so much better. Why are you doing this to me? So for me, it's a no because I think it's an alien concept and environment at a point that doesn't need to be introduced.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (59:51)
Area a bright pink. Yeah

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:00:11)
and just put down some absorbent puppy pads and pick them up and bin them if you want something wipeable or cleanable so it's a no from me.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:00:18)
I think I like the theory and the concept of it but in practice I can't see it working.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:00:26)
Well none of us do it so it just goes to show that if we actually thought it was a good idea we'd give it a go.

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:00:32)
A

shower curtain, throw a shower curtain down on your floor, I'm all up for that, that's not a bad idea. You know, if you're going to use something wipeable, washable.

I'm just thinking about when Luby had her last litter, she insisted on doing it in front of the fire in our sitting room. We have like a dog bed in front of there. And I used a, obviously we'd got the vet bed out, so I just threw a piece of vet bed down, because you can screw it up and wash it in. So somebody that's particularly cleanliness conscious because they want to use a paddling pool, maybe a shower curtain, something like that instead. Yeah. Less of an alien concept to the dog.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:01:07)
I don't find it that messy just get visions of Dexter and all this everywhere, like if you start getting the plastic sheets out and taping it to wall you're what's going on here?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:01:18)
but what you've got to remember is we set up, we have dogs, we have numerous dogs, we're set up for dogs. My house would not look like it looks now if I didn't have the dogs. I mean I'd have white furniture for a start, I'd have clean skirting boards all the time. Some of the clients I go to and one of the examples I'll give you is my bestest friend had one litter from her French Bulldog and she got into a trauma and I arrived and she's

in a perfect little pinny, little plastic pinny and little plastic gloves and I said where's Lola? And she went she's upstairs and I'm thinking you've got cream shagpile carpet like what are you doing? She wanted to be upstairs I think she would have liked to shower curtain.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:01:59)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (1:02:00)
That's difference, we dog people through and through from what we wear to the way our houses are, so that's the difference. So there's all of us saying no to a shower curtain or paddling pool 

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:02:10)
Cool. send her a shower

curtain.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (1:02:12)
for

Well thanks so much for joining us Jodi, was absolutely amazing to have you on board as a guest. It's nice to have

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:02:19)
just

bit her teeth because I didn't agree with her.

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (1:02:21)
No

it's nice to have another opinion because it just goes to I'm sat here with two people opposite sides of the table that breed the same breed of dog for over a decade each and you've still got different views so it just goes to show how every view can be valid it's about education finding a mentor doing as much research as possible and don't fall into the trap of learning from Facebook

when there's very little context to the questions being asked. Very often you won't even know what breed of dog the original poster is referring to, let alone the breed that the people that are giving advice own or breed. Because I've seen a lot recently where certain individuals like to feel very important in these groups and are offering tons and tons and tons of feedback. And then you find out they are breeding...

the world's most textbook breed of dog in the world and you think well yeah no wonder you're saying the welcome box doesn't need to be covered, the bitch doesn't need calcium, you don't need to worry about mastitis when you're weaning, weaning's really simple, well it might be for your breed but doesn't mean it's for everyone else's.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:03:27)
How can they find you Jo? They want to hear more of you and your opinions and your ways. What's the website?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:03:33)
www.northwestbreedingservices.com and I'm most vocal on my blog.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:03:38)
that website. on that website. okay what about your instagram?

Jo (North West Breeding Services) (1:03:42)
What's my Instagram?

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (1:03:44)
@northwestbreedingservices

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:03:47)
That's it go and check Jo out online now

Isobel the Canine Nutrition Coach (1:03:52)
Bye!

Sara Lamont (1:03:55)
We hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did recording it. I'm sure you've probably worked out by now that not all Facebook whelping groups are made equal. We strongly recommend you come and join us by simply searching Breeders Brew Community on Facebook and requesting to join the group filled with proactive and passionate puppy practitioners.