ABA 2024: Attentive Owner Winner - Helen Farnes

What does actual attentiveness look like in the whelping room?

In this episode, Sara chats with Helen Farnes, winner of the Attentive Owner Award, whose blend of instinct, experience and calm decisiveness has earned her a reputation for gold-standard care before, during and after whelping.

From managing a complex labour with a mummified pup to standing firm against vet advice when it mattered most, Helen shares how her background in farming, paired with a project manager’s mindset, shapes every part of her breeding practice. 

For guidance that respects your breed, background and breeding mindset, join the Brew Crew and learn from breeders like Helen, who lead with heart and hands-on wisdom.

📌 Show Notes: breedersbrew.com/notes/s3e23

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Transcript

Sara Lamont (00:24)
Today we are celebrating a truly dedicated breeder, Helen Farnes, the winner of the annual Breeder Award in the attentive owner category. This award recognises somebody who has shown exceptional care, planning and devotion throughout their female's pregnancy and whelping, ensuring the very best outcome for both mum and puppies. During this episode, Helen shares her journey from dairy farmer's wife to a passionate breeder of and Jack Russells, as well as her experienced breeding working collies.

for pregnancy, including health, testing, nutrition, and exercise routines. And we talk about the

realities of dog breeding from project managing chaos to making tough split decisions to safeguard both mum and puppies.

I should hold you up no further and press play now.

Sara Lamont (01:12)
I welcome to this episode of the Breeders Brew Helen Farnes, who is the winner of the Annual Breeder Award for the Attentive Owner category. Now this category is to recognise somebody that's put extreme love, care and attention during their female's pregnancy,

and the whelping to ensure the best outcome for the female and her puppies. So this feeds really nicely into my Three Pillars of Responsible Dog Breeding, the Attentive Owner category falls nicely into the planning section. So how to plan for a safe delivery of a lovely bundle of lovely puppies. So welcome to the podcast, Helen.

Helen Farnes (01:55)
Hi, Sara. Nice to be here.

Sara Lamont (01:58)
Thank you. Doyou want to take some time to tell the listeners a little bit about you, how long you've owned dogs for, when you started breeding and sort of why you decided to breed.

Helen Farnes (02:11)
Yeah, so basically dogs have always been in my family. My grandparents had about four. We always had a couple as kids. And then later on in life, I was a dairy farmer's wife and I bred working collies. And then from the working collies, as she got older, I then sort of diversified into smaller breeds.

and always had loved Jack Russell's. They're great around the farm, they're real active little dogs that can come along while you're riding, and also the vermin control. so we ended up with a few Jack Russell's, and just recently in the last three years, we've started with Borders as well.

I've always adored Border terriers, so like having a big dog in a small dog's body. So yeah, I couldn't resist, but yeah, that's what we've done.

Sara Lamont (03:07)
And so when did you decide to start breeding? How did you transition from sort of owner to breeder?

Helen Farnes (03:14)
Well, I suppose with the collies really that would have been around 2010. We bought a bitch, a working bitch actually from Wales and she was already proven we'd lost our other dog. We needed something to come in and obviously push the cows up and help with the farm work.

and she got bigger and bigger, contacted the old owner. well, actually, no, the only dog that she could be in pup to is our other really good worker. So I'm like, wow, we haven't got a dog to do any work with, but we've got a dog that's about to give birth. So it started with her, Meg. She was great at everything. Brilliant with the kids, brilliant with the animals.

and took to motherhood like a duck to water. Almost like she knew exactly what she was doing from day dot. And I just found it fascinating. I'd always bred horses, sheep, cattle, you know, always bred something, but this was my first time breeding dogs. So yeah, I just really enjoyed it and loved everything that came with it.

the finding homes, the desensitising, getting them started on sheep, seeing quite early which ones were going to be the ones that you would want to pass on to local farmers and which ones would be better suited for flyball and such like. Yeah, so that made me slightly addicted.

Sara Lamont (04:53)
So talk about sort of dumped in the deep end of buying a dog that doesn't work because she's pregnant and yeah, now you're rearing pups. Did you keep any puppies from that litter?

Helen Farnes (05:05)
Yes, so we kept a male out of that because we showed them to sheep about eight, nine weeks. We could tell which ones were the really keen ones to work. And so we kept one from the litter because Meg was six at the time and we thought, you she might slow down after having the pups. We didn't know how that was going to affect her working ability.

So we thought, well, you know, she'll train her son pretty much for us. And yeah, they worked alongside each other for many years and really enjoyed it.

Sara Lamont (05:40)
Wow. So what type of temperament are you looking for for working? What interactions do you do with the sheep for you to know whether that's the right?

Helen Farnes (05:50)
So it's almost very natural. You'll have six, seven week old pup. You bring them out in the yard with a few sheep that are good with dogs. they literally, they will start circling them. They'll go to the back of the sheep and try and bring them towards you all the time. They'll be looking at them as soon as they move. They'll lie down and they'll be glued to the sheep the whole time. And then sort of looking back at you like,

what do want me to do? And it's just, it's such an instinct. Just like it is with the terriers when they see or smell a rat, you know, they know exactly what to do with it. It's been bred in them for many, many centuries even. It is.

Sara Lamont (06:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's crazy. It's

like we've just had a conversation before I hit record about the Labradors just retrieving and even when I go into pet homes for scanning or microchipping or whatever, they naturally just want to bring you something. And you just think, well, that's a pet female that's never been worked a day in her life. She's never been on a shoot. She's never done anything to enhance her natural function, yet she still has that innate.

Helen Farnes (06:41)
Yeah?

Yeah.

Sara Lamont (06:59)
behaviour that they want to do it. So it is crazy. yeah, to pick that up and such young pups for you to then be able to nurture is, yeah, it's a great setting. in regards to like working dogs, how much care consideration is given for whether they're Kennel Club registered or not within the working community just out of interest?

Helen Farnes (07:20)
So you'll always get two sides. You'll get the ones that really couldn't care less about the breeding as long as they do the job and make your life easier. Then you've got the people who have got small holdings, potentially want them as a bit of a trophy and will want a good long list of breeding, usually ISDS, although you do get the odd Kennel Club

one thrown in for good measure. The Kennel Club ones tend to be more show lines so they're a bit slower, which actually is good for cattle because you want a slower dog on cattle in case they slip. But yeah, ISDS and the better breeding will always end up in the the laps of the people with estates and such like, you know, shoots and that sort of thing. It's more of a

more of a trophy rather than what they're any good at, you know.

Sara Lamont (08:17)
Well, that's interesting to say that you have like a slightly different type given what their function is, what they're like, you just said the slower ones for the cattle. That tells me that's a true expert speaking. Because there's me going, oh, the working dogs are all the same. You're like, no, no, no.

Helen Farnes (08:25)
Yes.

No,

no, they are very different. know, Bonnie, my ex working dog, she's full show lines, really well bred, stupidly well bred, in fact. But yeah, she's slower with the cows and she will do wild ponies and such like. And that's actually really helpful in some circumstances. You don't want them slipping over.

You know, with sheep, sheep are so much quicker. You need something that is sort of ISDS bred, that's sharp, and you will get the difference between the workers and the show lines. I suppose like any breed really, know, Labs the show line Labs are a bit more laid back than the working ones. Same with the Cockers

Sara Lamont (09:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, funny enough, I had Adam on Rising Star and he breeds Labradors and he was saying, you know, it's quite nice to have a Labrador because the variety is so vast that you'll have of the owners, some will want a dog because outdoor pursuits, you know, they want to put the dog to work where other people will, an active family will just want a dog that can keep up with their pace of life. So it's crazy. Yeah, the same breed can be used in so many different ways because

me coming from a Bulldog background and like a Bulldog just sits it doesn't do anything apart from sit there and entertain you basically yeah well not even that they just they just want to yeah they're just your mate they're just there to chill with you so it's so funny to have a breed that can literally be like manipulated into whatever function you need it to be is it's yeah an interesting insight what does is

Helen Farnes (09:53)
Look pretty.

Sara Lamont (10:13)
D, what do you say, an ISDI? I-D-S-D-S.

Helen Farnes (10:15)
ISDS is International Sheepdog Society.

Yeah, it's a good place. mean, can have them registered with the Kennel Club and ISDS, and some people do that so that they can be registered. But personally, as long as they can do the job, then that's all I was ever worried about, you know.

Sara Lamont (10:28)
Bye.

And so can anyone register their dog for that as long as their dog meets the criteria of whatever a sheepdog is considered? Is that how it works?

Helen Farnes (10:48)
So

yes, if you've got a dog that works really well but is not registered and it works to a certain standard, you can then have the ISDS guys come out and they will see the dog work, put it through its paces and grant you paperwork for your dog and do it that way.

Sara Lamont (11:11)
Okay,

but if you breed two registered parents then the pups would be... Yeah, okay.

Helen Farnes (11:16)
would automatically, yeah, they would all

automatically be registered.

Sara Lamont (11:21)
what's the most craziest dog you've seen registered that works on that registration then?

Helen Farnes (11:26)
Well, it would have to be a border collie. So there are people that are putting Kelpies with their Collies and Huntaways. There's some great Huntaways out there and they have a funny way of working. They can jump on the back of the sheep to get to the top where you're trying to push them, say, onto a cattle lorry or something like that.

the dogs will jump over the top of the sheep on their backs to get to the other side or go through the race where you've got your sheep and that sort of thing. they're definitely worth a watch if you've got five minutes. Huntaways working in usually Australia, great dogs.

Sara Lamont (12:02)
us.

That's

interesting. I know there are like, it sounds like a climbing dog, isn't it? They've obviously got those because I know you can get certain breeds of dogs that climb. So interesting. Interesting. Right. So in regards to preparing for pregnancy, what precautions do you say? What's your normal protocol, whether it be your Jack Russell's or whether it be your Borders?

Helen Farnes (12:11)
Yes!

Yeah, really interesting.

Sara Lamont (12:32)
to ensure a safe delivery.

Helen Farnes (12:35)
So nowadays all of mine are all health tested. We do the DNA, eye tests, everything to make sure that we're not breeding something that's carrying something awful. And nutrition, I'm a great believer in nutrition. you've got all of your background checks, the DNA, but you'd need a fit, healthy dog.

to produce fit, healthy pups. So nutrition is always the top of my list. Making sure that they've got high protein, making sure that they're fit enough, getting them out there walking. Also letting them work up until a certain point of their pregnancy, letting them have that, they enjoy work, they've got the drive to do it, so let them do it. It tires their brain out.

keeps them fit, keeps them agile. And yeah, that's how I generally do things. I always supplement their diet with a good vitamin and mineral chew. And then I just, I'll put them on a higher dose as they come towards the end of the pregnancy and obviously throughout lactating as well.

and

Sara Lamont (13:53)
What do you feed? What's your, can't remember if you're a raw kibble or something different feeder.

Helen Farnes (13:59)
So

I do a bit of both. I do love raw but it's quite messy and obviously I'm still farming so it's quite time consuming. So I use Purina Pro Plan. So I give them that along with some raw food on top and obviously natural treats. I don't give them anything that's not natural.

Sara Lamont (14:10)
Yeah, okay.

Helen Farnes (14:19)
because they've all got toxins in them,

Sara Lamont (14:22)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're all learning the negatives to processed foods and microplastics and yeah, toxins and all the rest of it. Out of interest, when do you decide to reduce exercise? Shainy what did she win? The Breeder Vision Award. She said she will exercise her females up until the latest point possible. you?

Helen Farnes (14:27)
Exactly.

Sara Lamont (14:44)
Do you go all week before, stop it, or do you let them go to full term if they want to do it? What's your protocol?

Helen Farnes (14:50)
I'm always

led by the bitch, so they're all individuals. Some will start to slow down a week before and then I'll say, okay, you want to stay at home instead of coming to the farm, that's fine. But some will carry on going up until a couple of days before. And then at that point, I'm like, no, I'm going to have to make this decision for you. You're going to have to chill out a little bit. And yeah, it's just been led by

by them, we have 250 acres that they can run around. So they'll just start to slow down and you just sort of catch them out of the corner of your eye thinking you probably need to go back to the car now. yeah, and then get them as accustomed to the whelping pen nice and early, sort of two, three weeks prior, just so that they get used to being away from the pack and making sure that they're getting lots of

rest and relaxation and bit of time out.

Sara Lamont (15:47)
Yeah, before the big day. Out of interest, do like a heat lamp or a heat pad? What's your preference?

Helen Farnes (15:49)
Yes, yes.

I use a heat pad purely because they can move off it if they want. I've got quite a big one. And we keep the house temperature about 20, 21, which some people were saying, that's not warm enough. But we've had Collies that have whelped out for hundreds of years outside and they've always been fine. We originally, when I first started,

Sara Lamont (16:13)
Yeah, no.

Helen Farnes (16:18)
they were outside the working collies and they would have heat lamps. But now we've got them inside the house and they're slightly more pampered, but the terriers do like to be pampered. So yeah, we use the heat mat and yeah, just keep an eye on them. mean, mum's tummies are always so hot and they're always snuggled up there. And it's obviously nature's way of doing things, isn't it?

Sara Lamont (16:30)
you

Well, as you say, the mammary glands are increased. It's almost like they're a built-in hot water bottle because they increase in size so they can get snuggled into. They're actually warmer than they usually would be because of the milk production. It's almost as if wonderful nature thought about that when it did it. Yeah. Hang on a second.

Helen Farnes (17:04)
knows exactly what it's doing.

This has been planned.

Sara Lamont (17:11)
Yes,

exactly that. All by design, as they say. I think you're right in regards to room temperature. I'm not a hot house type of person because the dogs just shed more. I just don't like it. I don't want to be, yeah, just clammy, hot and sweaty. Yeah, then they can't cool down.

Helen Farnes (17:15)
Exactly, yeah.

Exactly, and then they're uncomfortable, you know,

Sara Lamont (17:31)
So if

Helen Farnes (17:31)
no.

Sara Lamont (17:31)
everything's too hot, then the dog can't cool down. At least if their area's warm, if they're then too hot, they can move to a cooler room when they want to, and then go back in with the pups. So yeah, I totally agree with you.

Helen Farnes (17:43)
Exactly.

And if it's too hot, you'll find that the pups just lay around. They don't start using their muscles, start moving around. They'll just lie there basking in the heat. And yeah, we do want them moving around and using those little legs and joints and becoming independent.

Sara Lamont (17:49)
Yeah.

Well, yeah,

otherwise they end up being too fat before they've got up walking. And then that's when you end up with swimmer problems and flat chest and this and whatever. So pups shouldn't be heavy until they're up and walking. Where some, particularly in Bulldogs I find people get obsessed. They want these little fat potatoes, but they can't walk. Their legs are stuck out to the side and now they're too heavy. They can't even lift their own weight. I'm all for a skinny pup.

Helen Farnes (18:11)
Yeah.

No.

potatoes yet. No.

Yes.

Sara Lamont (18:32)
get them up and moving. And then once they're up,

Helen Farnes (18:32)
Yeah. 100%.

Sara Lamont (18:35)
then you can get some food on them. So yeah, I totally agree with you in that respect. And also to bear in mind in regards to different temperature settings, different breeds, like different temperatures, my Labrador pups are just, as soon as it got a bit too warm, they couldn't stand it. They'd be laying all in the toilet area, anywhere apart from the bedding, because they're too hot and bothered, where the Bulldogs you could literally roast them alive.

Helen Farnes (18:55)
Yeah.

Sara Lamont (18:59)
and they'll just sit there. know, yeah, they'll be like, I can take this, I can take this, I can take this. So different breeds imagine the working staff and especially well exercised dogs, they're like internal body regulations, probably so much better. Then given that they're a working dog, especially if they're coated. So I just think their temperature monitor is probably so much better than the average Bulldog

Helen Farnes (19:00)
And then I bring it on.

Yeah, you've just got to adapt, haven't you? And yeah, they're all individuals, aren't they? So you'll get some that are just naturally a bit hotter, that don't tolerate it as well. And you'll get others, like you say, like with yours, that will just bask in it and quite happy.

Sara Lamont (19:42)
Yeah, well, and I guess that's one of the skill set that you get to learn over time. You'd be like, I'd normally do this, but on this female, actually, or this litter I think I need to do something different. Yeah, you can't always just...

Helen Farnes (19:49)
Yes.

We'll change it around a little bit, yeah. You kind of know what

works for each one, don't you?

Sara Lamont (20:02)
Yeah, but you can get complacent of going, I always do it like this. And then actually, no, not for this litter or not for this female because she wants it different. I know that you recently had a bitching whelp that ended up in a C-section. So it would be great to share.

Helen Farnes (20:08)
No.

Sara Lamont (20:18)
with the listeners, how you picked up some of the signs that the delivery wasn't going as planned and at what point you decided to get a vet involved.

Helen Farnes (20:28)
Yeah, so normal pregnancy came to you, had the scan, lovely, everything was great. She started two days early. Previous litter was two days late. And I thought, that's strange. And yeah, we just weren't, we weren't progressing.

I'm always a little bit worried about all of them. And I think that just almost makes you a little bit more on the ball. And yeah, we weren't progressing. Then I put a finger in and I could feel something that was huge. And I thought either this is the bum coming out first and we've got all the legs pointing forward, or this is a huge pup. And so...

I thought, just let her have a couple of pushes. And I could see that she wasn't going to get it out of there. And she was getting a little bit, a little bit distressed. So made the call, said I need to bring her in. So went down to the vets. I'm really lucky that they let me come out the back. I think it helps keep the bitch calm if she knows that you're there.

And we managed to get the first pup out with some oxytocin. But it was so big that when she started struggling with the second one, I'm looking at the vet going, I think we might need to open her up now. And they were like, well, we could just give her another shot of oxytocin, see how that works. And at this point, I'm like, no, we're going to open her up because

Sara Lamont (21:49)
Hmm.

Helen Farnes (22:01)
I'm not gonna push this dog, it's my daughter's dog. She would never forgive me. She's our absolute baby. And at this point, money and everything goes out the window. You're just like, get her, okay. Get these pups out. There's something not right. So I took the big pup out the front and just snuggled up with it down my cleavage as you do.

Sara Lamont (22:15)
Yeah.

Helen Farnes (22:25)
And yeah, they came in after about half an hour. Roo was doing really well. But there was a mummified pup in there. And that was it. That was the whole problem, why things weren't going the way that they should do. I've had it with cows before, but never had it with a dog. So that was a new thing. But...

Sara Lamont (22:35)
Mm.

Did they say what

order it was it? Would it have potentially held up any of the others or would it have just sat at the back and...

Helen Farnes (22:54)
It was sat at the back, they said, so it was the last one out. But it had started to sort of decompose in its sack. And whether that comes out into the bloodstream and it starts to mess with the hormones, I'm not entirely sure. But something, I think that was the reason why we ended up making that call. And it was a good call in the end.

Sara Lamont (23:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Helen Farnes (23:17)
Sometimes I think you've just got to go with your gut and go right Everything's going to go out the window. Let's make sure this bitch is alright and get the pups out

Sara Lamont (23:25)
Yes,

and you went against really the vet's advice of let her go a little bit longer. As you say, you had this gut feeling. how long has she been in labour at that point?

Helen Farnes (23:29)
Yes

So she'd been huffing and puffing the day before, nesting, normal sort of stuff. And then we got to the point where she was panting quite a lot and she was restless. And I was thinking we should be progressing more than we are doing, checking her, where is it in the birth canal? It's there, but it was huge.

And I think coming from a farming background, you're quite used to putting your arm in and having a feel, making sure you've got a nose and two feet. But yeah, and I suppose maybe that is why I made the call, even though the vet was quite happy to carry on. Because once you've seen it so many times with different animals, you just get that feeling that it's not going right. And, you know, there are babies, aren't they?

Sara Lamont (24:21)
Yeah, yeah, well you say just the bitch never chose to be bred from, so she is your priority at that point and you think that's being compromised then yeah, you have to do something otherwise you'll never forgive yourself. How long from when they gave the oxy did she deliver that first puppy?

Helen Farnes (24:28)
All the time. Yeah.

Yeah, no, 100%.

So we got in, they gave her a shot of oxytocin and within a couple of minutes she was pushing quite hard and we managed to get that big pup out but it was not a pretty sight. You know, I've had calves that we've had to jack out and it's not nice at all. And after she'd gone through that, I was almost like...

Sara Lamont (24:48)
Okay.

Nah.

Helen Farnes (25:04)
I don't want to put her through anymore because that was quite dramatic for her and I can save her from having to go through anymore.

Sara Lamont (25:12)
What

Whathas she been scanned for? What was you, how many were you expecting? okay, yeah, so you knew there was plenty more to come. Yeah, was in the case of.

Helen Farnes (25:15)
She was scanned for five.

Yeah, but

equally I was under the illusion that, you know, there's five in there. She only ever has had four before or three. You know, she's quite small. So these pups will be small, easy to pass. know, she'll cough, they'll come out. How wrong was I? When I put my finger in and felt that one, my heart sank. And I just thought, I want this over and done with.

Sara Lamont (25:36)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Helen Farnes (25:47)
And actually after the C-section I just said I can't do this with her again. She'll be spayed and she'll have of luxury ratting, like that's her favourite thing. she's just a lady of luxury now.

Sara Lamont (26:00)
Yeah.

Well, you say, you've had a warning and yeah, you've taken heed to it and you go, she's done enough and that's fine. You say you got another generation. What signs of distress did she give you before you took her to the vet? What made you think, I say you felt the pup, but how was she acting in herself? Just for people that might not know the difference between just the first stage labour and...

Helen Farnes (26:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So she was pushing.

she was pushing really hard. She looked tired. She was panting. these were, I mean, these are all signs of labour They're quite normal. But when you get to sort of 20 minutes of her pushing and you put a finger in and you feel something really big, you then go, okay.

No, this is not going to come out normally. Let's get her down there as soon as possible. So if it was anything else, I'd probably leave them half an hour and just suck it and see. But in this instance, I just knew that something was coming. It was bad. You could feel a tail and a big bum. And that was it really. So yeah, making that call early, think, helped save the rest of the pups.

Sara Lamont (27:10)
Yeah, 1000%. And it goes to show you have to stick a finger in and have a rummage around, say you're more than custom. You're used to being armpit deep, so for a finger and a hand, you're not concerned about. But most people, always worries me, even doing breedings where they don't internally check the bitch before they're doing a natural breeding. I'm

Helen Farnes (27:17)
Yes.

Sara Lamont (27:31)
like you're going in blind, you need to know what's about to happen because if a bitch reacts in a certain way, that's gonna tell you why. If you stuck a finger in and she's got a stricture or polyps or like anything, you need to know. And likewise come delivery, I had the same with the Labrador, which I think I've already said to you that I had a puppy head stuck, head first, out of sack.

Helen Farnes (27:40)
Yes. Yeah.

you

Sara Lamont (27:58)
And

I put a finger in, I went straight into its mouth because I was like, all right, OK. All right, we've got a pup there. And even with Oxy, she couldn't pass it. And I decided right on the next load of contractions, I'm just going to grip around the back of its ears and I'm going to pull as hard as I can. yeah, Spice didn't appreciate. this is the strength that I pulled. This is what people don't understand. I had resided with myself that if I pulled the puppy's head off,

Helen Farnes (28:02)
Yes.

yet.

Sara Lamont (28:24)
it was only in the best interest to deliver the pup and for spice and yeah, she did she popped like she popped out she probably was so much for she could have sort of flown across the room and she was slow to get going and spice nearly hit the roof and some and then I was joking that she would be my giraffe-necked Labrador But but she she was fine eight weeks old you would never have known so I think some people

Helen Farnes (28:24)
Yes?

exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes! it's awful, isn't it?

No.

Sara Lamont (28:50)
don't realise how, not necessarily forceful, but how much force is required sometimes if you've got a stuck pup and you need to get the pup out. There's no point being all gentle about it all. Yeah, I mean, when you think there's women being born and they get cut left, right and center, the forceps come out, the baby's black and blue and it bruised all over the head. It's got an egg-shaped head and all sorts like when it's got to get out.

Helen Farnes (28:59)
Yes. Yeah.

fluffy with it.

Yeah.

Sara Lamont (29:19)
it's got to get out. It's yeah. And I think sometimes some breeders can be a little bit precious because it is their baby. But in this circumstance, you need to be serious and you need to do what you what you can.

Helen Farnes (29:20)
You've got to get them out, yeah?

Yeah.

just automatically kicks in, doesn't it? You just go into, we've got to make this work. Most.

Sara Lamont (29:36)
Well, I think it does with you because you say

you just have the farming experience. I think you say even conversations we've had, you've always tried to like liken it to cows or horses or this or that or whatever. Because yeah, like we had the whole conversation about retained placentas and how with horses, it's really important, isn't it? That it's delivered. Yeah.

Helen Farnes (29:41)
Yeah

Yes, for horses.

Yes, yes.

It can be so toxic. So toxic

with horses. You can lose your horse quite easily by leaving even a little bit of afterbirth in there. Like I said to you, when a foal is born, the sack is the shape of a horse and you'll literally go through the whole of the sack making sure there's none left over. So when Kanga had a retained one, I was like, wow, you need to get a scanned.

And it wasn't until I came and we scanned her and you reassured me it's fine with the dogs. And then we put her the homeopathic treatment and everything did what it should do.

Sara Lamont (30:37)
Yeah,

as you say, different type of uterus, different people do get very panicky over retain placentas and I'm always a bit more chill with it because yeah, I've had the experience of all the things. But what was the name out of interest? That was going to be one of my questions. What was the homeopathic stuff you put her on?

Helen Farnes (30:45)
Yeah.

Yes.

well I've been given it by one of the vets at Forest Row and yeah they did a really good job.

Caulophyllum

Sara Lamont (31:04)
that's right. We'll put it, yeah, well, I don't, But I think, yeah.

Helen Farnes (31:04)
know that one, 30, C.

Yes, Caulophyllum and

then the other one.

Pulsatilla Pulsatilla

Sara Lamont (31:14)
I'll put a link in the show notes so people can go and find for themselves. But yeah, I'm all for pretty much everybody that I've had calls with have mentioned a supplement in some way, or form that they found beneficial. So it goes to show that

Helen Farnes (31:18)
Yes.

Yeah.

Sara Lamont (31:33)
It's not always just a case of medication. There are other alternatives out there that would do a fantastic job. yeah, you've seen firsthand the benefits of the two that you've just recommended. it goes to show we do have some power in our breeder hands. It's not always with the vets. We can help ourselves.

Helen Farnes (31:44)
Yes.

Yeah, it's like a little toolkit,

isn't it? And you speak to people, you've got your little toolkit and you just take things from other people and you put it in your toolkit and you just use it as and when you need. And yeah, I think it's a nice world, the breeding world, know, people will help each other. So we've all got the same interests at heart, haven't we?

Sara Lamont (32:07)
I mean, yeah,

we're all weird dog lovers and we're even weirder breeders. that's one of the reasons that this podcast is just to share information. It's all that I do as a canine family planner. I'm luckily that I'm exposed to so many different types of breeders. And yet if I can take little nuggets of information and share that cross pollinate almost like a little bee.

Helen Farnes (32:12)
Yeah.

you.

Yes.

Sara Lamont (32:33)
And just cross pollinate that information because there's pockets that it applies to them. They just don't know it yet. And that's all I'm really doing. And that's all the podcast is about is for somebody to go, yeah, we should try that in my breed or with my dogs. it's a, we're all only doing it for the better interest of the dogs. So yeah, I I think it's a really good community. And I think it's such a mix that because anyone can own a dog, it's such a crazy mix of people.

Helen Farnes (32:52)
to be.

Sara Lamont (33:03)
But everybody likes dogs, so I mean, we like to think that everyone's really nice, which isn't always the case, but you kind of feel that everyone must have a nice part of their heart that they're keen to give to a dog and that makes them a nice person.

Helen Farnes (33:15)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. mean, we have almost a saying with the horses. There are horsemen and there are horse owners and there is a difference. And it is the same with dog breeders. know, it's like for like.

Sara Lamont (33:24)
Yeah. Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, very much so, very much so. And obviously you fall in the better of those categories in all respects, in fact, like horses, cows, cattle, everything. Right, let's move on to the quick fire round because I'm conscious of time. The first one you might have already covered, but what would you consider an essential whelping kit item?

Helen Farnes (33:37)
Try to!

stethoscope.

Sara Lamont (33:55)
really? Okay, expand a little bit. So for you check your bitch

Helen Farnes (33:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, keep an eye on the bitches heart rate. I don't want to get into too much distress. So if it goes too high, then I start to get a bit worried, you know, we might start walking around then see if we can just take a mind off it a little bit. And also with the pups. So when they come out, if they're looking a bit blue and I'm struggling to get them going, I will be listening.

A for heartbeat and B to see if there's anything on the lungs and whether I need to start swinging this pup to bring it round.

Sara Lamont (34:36)
And do you use that a lot, with horses and cattle and is that a go-to tool for those as well? Yeah. Interesting.

Helen Farnes (34:41)
Yes, yes it is. So all round

sort of thing. Yeah, with horses if their heart rate is high, they're quite stressed. And you know with puppies if their heart rate starts to go, you know, if it starts to decrease, then you know that you've got a bit of a problem.

Sara Lamont (34:48)
Yeah, it's it.

I've always been a bit like, I'm not sure, but I think you've given a really good counter argument for it. And it also makes me think about, I had a friend with a puppy, I think she got it to about two weeks and it was feeding, but not keeping color. And yeah, then it just went downhill rapidly. And I said, I've got a feeling it's heart as it's growing, it's heart

Helen Farnes (35:07)
That's

Yeah.

Sara Lamont (35:24)
is not right. And now as it's growing, it can't hasn't got the strength to supply oxygen to the rest of the body. So I reckon if she'd put a stethoscope on it, she would have had a non typical heartbeat anyway, I think whether it be lower, whether it sounded weird, whatever compared to the rest of the puppies. So because otherwise that just looks like fading puppy syndrome. But I was like, yeah, but

Helen Farnes (35:31)
Yes.

Yep.

It does, yeah.

maybe that is something to do with a heart defect or something like that. So, a decent one, mean, mine was about 500 quid, but you need to buy a decent one. You can get them in all, know, Argos, you can buy them anywhere, but you can buy cheap ones and they're no good. You need a decent one.

Sara Lamont (35:51)
Yes, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I always want to pinpoint it.

wow.

Yeah.

Helen Farnes (36:11)
And just use it on your bitch, you know, once a week throughout pregnancy. So you know what her normal is. So you know that if she's getting stressed and it's getting higher, you need to do something. Same with the pups. If you've got one that the vet has said, this one's got a heart murmur, get listening to it so you know what you're listening for.

Sara Lamont (36:32)
Yeah, because you could

learn you could learn beforehand and you saying you saying about them being expensive and any quality medical equipment will always have a resale market. So I'm sure you could pick pick a decent one up, you know, a lesser price if you know, to a degree if you know what you're looking for.

Helen Farnes (36:36)
certainly.

percent.

Yeah, know, eBay

and that sort of thing. You know, I was just lucky that I got it bought for a special birthday. But prior to that, you know, I had I had one that was secondhand that I'd got off eBay. I think it was about 30, 40 quid. It wasn't a lot of money, but it worked. Yeah.

Sara Lamont (37:06)
Yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah, no, I like that. I like that. Right, back to the questions. Biggest stress, pregnancy or whelping?

Helen Farnes (37:16)
For me, whelping is the most stressful time for me because I'm so worried about the bitch and I'm so worried that everything goes alright and almost on high alert the whole time. I couldn't bear not to have them scanned, not to know how many puppies I'm waiting for because I'm sat there with her throughout the whole shebang. I'm the first one that touches those puppies.

Sara Lamont (37:18)
Well, pin.

Yeah.

Helen Farnes (37:42)
I don't want her nibbling off the cord too tight. I want to make sure that it's breathing and its mouth and nose are clear before she gets to lick it. Mine are ever so good, they're like, okay, you carry on, I'll just sit here. And then as soon as I've got the nose clear and I've checked them over, then they'll go straight underneath her chin, you know, she can do her bit. But yeah, I'm a bit protective over the whole.

the whole situation and I can get quite stressed. know, if somebody comes down and starts talking to me, I'm like, leave me alone.

Sara Lamont (38:14)
Yeah,

well, I think it's because you're taking your role seriously and you know what there is to lose. You know how quickly it can be one situation, but then change to another. knowledge is a curse, I think, when it comes to dog breeding, because the more you learn, the more you become hyper vigilant of everything. Exactly, yeah, you've got a whole list of things that it could be and you're trying to cross them out as you go.

Helen Farnes (38:19)
So seriously, yeah.

Bye!

more you think. Yes, it could be this, it could be that, could be this.

Yeah, as you go mentally.

Sara Lamont (38:43)
Yeah, no, it's not an easy task. Well, yeah, there is that question. Right, In one word describe the traits of equality Dam?

Helen Farnes (38:44)
So stressful. Why do we do it?

and the

one word.

So I would say temperament. At the end of the day, a lot of these pups are going to go into family homes and they've got to have the right temperament. But yeah, you know me, I could elaborate on that so much

Sara Lamont (39:02)
temperament.

No,

I think that's a brilliant answer. when I book people in for any of the services I do, there's a standard text, which you've probably seen a thousand times, you don't read anymore. But it basically says, if your dog is reactive or has aggressive tendencies, please tell me before the appointment.

that's normally aimed more at males, particularly for fertility assessments than anything else. But it goes out on everybody because I have been headbutted by Cane Corso and smashed my glasses up once on the scan. So I'd like to have a rough idea of what I'm walking into. And very, very rarely, and actually people have asked me, have I ever been bitten doing what I do? And I have done, but I've never been bitten by a female. So that's

Helen Farnes (39:43)
Thank

No.

Sara Lamont (39:59)
And that should always be the case because if I'm going to get bitten by a female dog, why are you breeding from her? Exactly. So yeah, temperament is massive, without a doubt. think it's considered it has a higher priority in some breeds than others. And I think people also need to accept that temperament can be, we're used to in our head thinking, it's...

Helen Farnes (40:06)
you going to manage the whelping process?

Yeah.

Sara Lamont (40:24)
reactive as embarking, being aggressive, growly, but also extreme shyness is equally as bad because, yes, because a dog that's now in fear can react and then become a biter or this or that. So I think equally people need to consider the whole spectrum. I know with Bulldogs, people and they're a companion breed, so temperament very rarely is an issue.

Helen Farnes (40:31)
Yes, can be just as bad.

Yeah?

Sara Lamont (40:51)
but I would say it has crept in about the shyness. And I'm like, well, that's fine until they're in a situation they're so scared that the only way that they react is to bite someone and then it's not fine. So shyness is not an acceptable temperament. I see in my Labrador, she's unbelievable. Like she literally, you can see her think about the whole process the situation she's in, but you can literally hear the cogs in her brain turn and then she goes, no, I just leave it.

Helen Farnes (41:05)
Correct.

Mm-hmm.

It's not worth it.

Sara Lamont (41:19)
Good choice, thing to do. Yeah, but

some breedable dogs, they're already running off and they didn't even understand the situation that they were in. yeah, I think temperament is an excellent answer for a female. It's so underrated. It's almost people are taking it as a given and it most certainly isn't. So now I think that's a...

Helen Farnes (41:37)
Yeah, I mean, you could

have the best put together dog with the best confirmation, all of the health tests, but if they're a bit off, then why are you breeding from it? You're going to produce that down the line with all of these pups that then could end up having to be rehomed because they can't keep them with the children or they can't keep them with, you know, whatever. But it needs to be, yeah, temperament every time.

Sara Lamont (42:04)
Yeah, brilliant answer. And then my final, final question in one word, describe breeding.

Helen Farnes (42:14)
chaotic.

Sara Lamont (42:16)
Brilliant.

Need we say any more?

Helen Farnes (42:17)
You've got to be able to multitask

on many levels.

Sara Lamont (42:21)
Yeah, and you're always planning, you're dealing with the problems now, but you know, in a week's time, I've got to do this, I've got to change that, that might happen. You're always forecasting, even I've got pups, I need to find the homes, I need to start vetting people, even though the puppies are only an extra number of days old. And yeah, think you're, yeah, level of, you are a project manager, and there's very, there's people that have that as a job that get paid significant amounts of money, and we do that.

Helen Farnes (42:28)
and

Yeah?

Yes.

Sara Lamont (42:48)
For fun.

Helen Farnes (42:48)
Yes. And we're

a project manager of workers that just do their own thing all the time.

Sara Lamont (42:53)
I mean,

I mean, most project managers might say that that's the case. They're just they are they're herding cats all the time, trying to keep them in the same direction. So I'm sure they they would like and they would like it and staff to be in cats and dogs. Untrainable. Right. That is the end of this fabulous conversation. So I'm so glad that you spent the time.

Helen Farnes (43:00)
Yes, well yes, yes. Yeah, it definitely feels like that.

Yeah.

Sara Lamont (43:18)
to share your wisdom, knowledge, and to accept officially the Attentive Owners Award. they will be in the You'll get your certificate and your boxed rosette. So you can hang it up for everybody to see and to show off or to remind yourselves in point of insanity on your next litter. I can do this.

Helen Farnes (43:26)
Thank you ever so much.

Yeah, two o'clock in the morning.

Sara Lamont (43:41)
Exactly that, exactly that. But yeah, thank you ever so much for taking the time out to share with our listeners. Yeah, a massive insight.

Helen Farnes (43:47)
No, thanks ever

so much for having me on and for the award. I'm really flattered, thank you.

Sara Lamont (43:53)
No,

no problem. We'll catch up soon. Bye. Bye bye bye.

Helen Farnes (43:58)
We'll catch up soon, definitely. Take care. Thank