15┃ Q&A: Inbox to Airwaves

Feeling unsure about how to handle a puppy return, when to give calcium or why your TCI didn’t take?

In this episode, we tackle some of the most common breeder dilemmas head-on, offering clear, practical answers drawn from real-world experience, not outdated advice from Facebook. From managing food quality and supplement gaps to protecting yourself with proper contracts and understanding the accurate timing behind calcium and TCI success, this episode is packed with insight.

For breeders who want support tailored to their breed, background, and breeding mindset, the Brew Crew offers the guidance and community you need to continue growing and doing right by your dogs.

📌 Show notes: breedersbrew.com/notes/s3e15

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Transcript

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Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (00:21)
we'd love to start this episode by saying thank you so much for all of the questions that you have been sending in. We've had so many come through. I think we're going to have to be quite ruthless actually, Sara.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (00:35)
for too long, I guess as well, because we can chat, can't we, Isobel?

yeah, no, it's been,

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (00:41)
that we can.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (00:43)
yeah, we've appreciated all the emails that have come in.

And what we really appreciate is the vast array of topics that have been received because it just goes to show how broad the conversation of dog breeding really is from the point of considering breeding your dog to the conception, to the pregnancy, to the actual...

delivery to the rearing the puppies to then going to their new homes and then the support to the new owners beyond that point. It's just such a vast, a mixed bag of emotions and expectations and responsibilities that take you through that entire journey that I think sometimes people really do oversimplify it. So it's nice to get emails in where people are struggling on particular

sections of that journey and then obviously for us to be able to help them at that point. So I think the variety of what we received is actually really vast and interesting and reflective of dog breeding.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (01:41)
Yeah, exactly that. think you've hit the nail on the head. It's so reflective because we've all got to remember everybody starts somewhere. Everybody's idea of what is experienced, what is knowledgeable is different and we've all got different breeds of dogs. So everyone naturally is going to have a really, really different experience and a different breeding journey. And no two pregnancies are the same. No two whelps are the same. No two litters of puppies are the same.

And therefore it always surprises me how many people will happily offer oversimplified advice online, for example if they've got Labradors, to somebody that's been breeding because they're just not the same.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (02:18)
Well, and the world isn't the same. you can't do what you did 10 years ago. Well, you can do what you did 10 years ago, but it's probably no longer the best thing to be doing. There will be little micro changes and alterations that you should be making as the world keeps turning. And so it's quite easy to get complacent with the simplicity of it because you have that knowledge in your brain from previous experience.

but that doesn't really forecast what's coming at you down the

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (02:50)
I mean we've only got to look at our own breeding journeys. I certainly am not raising litters the same way my grandmother was that I was helping to bottle feed when I was five years old and I'm sure you're not raising your litters the same way you were compared to your first litters that you experienced Sara.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (03:06)
when I think back to my first litter, wow, there's a lot, a lot different, thankfully. And I always just think I want to improve even if everything went perfectly and swimmingly, I still want to streamline and improve my methods. So there still is always opportunity to reflect on what you've done and try and improve it.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (03:29)
100%. I mean, is that not all that athletes ever do? And that's the whole reason that athletes have head coaches. And as we always say, motherhood is a marathon. We're expecting our dogs to undergo a marathon of a journey. So we do need to be there as a head Coach, doing all of the research and making sure we're at the forefront of science and forefront of learning to ensure that we're giving our dogs the best chance at succeeding and having an easy time of this marathon.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (03:58)
Yeah, a thousand percent. So should we get stuck into the first question

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (04:01)
Let's.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (04:02)
Okay, so the first email from Bev, she's written, I hope you're well. I'm looking for some advice regarding I recently sold. The buyers paid a deposit and then settled the balance upon collection. However, just three days later, they've contacted me saying their son has had an allergic reaction and now wish to return the puppy. I'm happy to take the puppy back, but I've never dealt with a return before.

I'd like to have a proper return contract in place to confirm that the puppy is still in good health and that the return is for a genuine reason, ensuring a smooth resale or rehoming. Do you have any guidance on how to handle this and what steps I should take? I really appreciate any advice. Many thanks.

So, this is an interesting one because what hasn't been made clear is whether she had a puppy contract in the first place, because that puppy contract would kind of negate the rest of this conversation because it should have been stated in there what the return clauses are

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (05:11)
that was going to be my first question, Sara, to you, was there any mention of a sales contract in that original email?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (05:17)
Yeah.

So this is a weird retrospective contract of having a contract to return the dog rather than the contract to sell the dog. So that

I would say, best

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (05:27)
I mean, it's not

ideal,

but

I have to say it's better than not having one at all, so we'll roll with it

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (05:33)
Yeah, exactly. mean, typically, most breeders in their puppy contracts would say the conditions of return. Talking broadly, I believe most people would say, if you want to return the puppy for the first week, no questions asked, then that's possible.

saying that in this instance again, I mean the allergic thing sort of gets banded around quite a lot as a easy get out clause I feel for some puppy owners but equally then if somebody doesn't want the dog just take the dog back whatever what literally whatever the reason is

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (06:01)
Yes.

Yeah,

why would you want that puppy to suffer? However frustrating it is that that new owner has changed their mind or circumstances changed. Why would you want your puppy to stay in a home that is unsettled with an owner that frankly doesn't want What's the

in

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (06:28)
even if they contact you and it's some reasons given that you're a bit, I don't totally believe you, it doesn't matter, just take the puppy back because they will do more damage that puppy staying with them and it's your responsibility as the breeder to make sure that puppy is in the most loving home possible when they're now displaying that they're not.

And actually funny enough, somebody else recently contacted me about return puppy, but it was a totally genuine reason. And they asked me what they felt they should do. Now I've never had them complete a contract of return, but equally I don't think it's a bad thing to do because it's a really nice clear way to lay out what I'm about to say, which is typically.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (07:06)
Yes.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (07:07)
I've always said to people the pup comes back if it's within the first seven days and it's all health related issue that I should have been aware of that I wasn't, pup comes back get a full refund, no questions asked. If it's outside of that, I would always take the puppy back. But the conditions generally would be I'll take the puppy back and money will only exchanged hands once I found that puppy a new home. And then I'm not guaranteeing you're going to get back.

what you pay for that puppy, you will get back basically what I've resold that puppy for minus any costs. Because if I've had to have that puppy another four weeks, then that's going to be a bag of dog food. If I've had to put a puppy advert up, all those little things. If I had to go and get the second vaccination, because only the first one's been done. But would have all the receipts to show them that and I would have obviously the puppy contract with the new person.

though obviously for DPA they wouldn't have their address details, but they they would see that this is what I've sold the puppy for. These are the receipts of what I spent on your puppy. So this is the money I'm now giving back to you. because I think that's where people generally get a bit uncomfortable with it all because possibly the budget's already gone regards to they've sold that puppy that

money's been banked and onto the next thing. And technically, why should you be out of pocket when they're the one that doesn't want the dog? And I am a firm believer of not making things too easy for somebody because life isn't easy. So not that I've had to do it that often, but I find that that's a fair way to say somebody, yeah, bring the dog back straight away. No questions asked. And you will be compensated once that puppy's found its perfect home and under these conditions.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (08:48)
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's worth considering it's always a case by case scenario.

have actually been in that position ourselves where the family did actually need to return based off incredibly severe allergies. And I appreciate what you're saying. Sometimes it can feel like a bit of a cop-out.

You question the motives of that family as to why they were turning the puppy. But at the end of the day, things can go wrong, And we did take the puppy back and gave them a full refund straight away. And the little boy had actually been incredibly poorly. there can be really genuine reasons and we were a really lovely family and pup came back to us in really good health and stuff. So it's not always a bad thing.

it happening

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (09:25)
I think what you have to remember as a breeder that a returned puppy is no reflection on you.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (09:31)
Yes,

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (09:32)
Like she said that I've never had, well, that's

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (09:33)
exactly.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (09:35)
Like, and actually it probably means you pick pretty good people because they're confident enough to say, you know what, this isn't working and I need to bring the puppy back. I'd rather somebody did that than not tell me and resell the puppy yard and I don't know anything about it.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (09:44)
Yeah.

so

it could actually be a great reflection of you as a breeder that you've managed to build a relationship that is that strong, they are turning to you in the first instance of something going wrong.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (10:00)
it can feel like a bit of a rejection, like someone you've produced something and now they're rejecting it and you're taking it back. So you can take that quite personally. But yeah, I've always seen it as, no, that's amazing. Like you could be a complete and utter tool but that's amazing that you've told me you don't want this puppy. I'm not going to judge you for it. Just give me the puppy back because I'm the best person to now find that puppy a new home. And yeah, like it's fine. It's done and dusted.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (10:02)
Yes.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (10:26)
we're not going to be best mates over it, equally, it's fine. Like you've kept up, that's you being a, taking responsibility, putting your hands up and saying, this situation isn't working for whatever reason. And so yeah, I need to tell the breeder. Perfect. That's exactly what you're meant to do. So yeah, I think that's, it's having the right attitude, it's having the right attitude and approach to it. So in regards to Bev, yeah, if you're going to do a return contract, well,

Firstly, I would have your return conditions in your puppy contract. If you haven't got that, then yeah, definitely put together a return contract I mean, at the end of the day, like she said, the puppy's in the same condition that it went in. maybe someone could have dropped a dog or he's been attacked by their other dogs and now it's got bite marks on it. It's had minor trauma, know, this kind of thing.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (11:14)
Yes.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (11:15)
I think you would have to take that puppy to your vet to confirm that.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (11:21)
Yeah, 100 % I agree with you. That

would be the first step for me in a returns process and outlined in the contract that if there is a cost associated with that puppy's vet check or if it needs any treatment to ensure its wellbeing at the point of return, that should really be docked off of the refund money, in my opinion.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (11:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So maybe that's the practice that you've got to Yeah, what's happening with the money? How is it refunded? What happens initially when the dog is first I mean, there's probably a question about insurance, whether that dog should be insured because now the breeder is taking on the risk again, even though it's in their care.

So what happens to it in that interim of it not technically being their dog or your dog? So what happens in regards to insurance, if there's pet insurance? So yeah, all that feeds into the costs, the food, the vet check, the advertising, finding it a new home. That should all be documented in there. And I guess some rough timelines and expectations.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (12:23)
be written in, you're right, because there should be caveats in every...

contract because life isn't black and white. So what if the breeder decides to keep the puppy upon return? That needs to be outlined in there as to what figure is then given back to the previous home. You also need to have an instance in there that if that puppy were to unfortunately pass away while it's back in the breeder's care before it goes to new home, that needs to be documented in there.

curveballs do occur. So I would recommend to Bev as well that maybe she sat down and thought about all the plausible outcomes of this situation so that she can ensure that that is outlined in the contract. if...

So if it's not as simple as the puppy going straight to a new home and being sold to the for the mount, what happens?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (13:11)
Yeah, because actually you've raised a valid point and I know some rescues do it nowadays where they try and not have the dog in their care. They try and go from one owner to the next owner. So maybe your responsibility is where you go, yeah.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (13:23)
Yes.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (13:28)
Thanks for letting me know that you're looking to rehome the dog. I can't have it back at the moment. However, I will try and find some homes that you can contact with and they directly liaise with each other. So that leaves you out the loop in regards to money, expectations, accountability. So that's always something to be considered as well. Do you always have to have the puppy back Because you might have had a wait list and...

some people didn't make the cart that you could then go actually I'll contact these people and say a puppy's come available but you know let's cut out the middle man so that's yeah always something to bear in mind. I know I've done that for people because I've got quite a large contact list for my dogs that I breed. I've had people where they've used they've used a stud of mine and say they've they got

an older dog that needs rehoming, then I'm more than happy to ping out an email and say, look, I haven't bred this dog, but it is related to one of mine. If you're interested in an older dog, I don't want to get involved but contact these people direct. So I think if you have access to a network, it's quite nice to put it to good use if you can where suitable.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (14:33)
Yeah, absolutely. So guidance to bev is think of every outcome possible. Make sure it's documented. Make sure expectations are documented, timelines documented, because what happens if you can't find a new home within three months and that family are needing that puppy money back after three months? Is there then an agreement that they get a partial refund after that amount of time? All of these things need to be considered.

And the great place to work that out would be probably chat GPT to be honest. I'd strongly recommend, yeah, I'd strongly recommend Bev that you go and jump on chat GPT and have a chat with it and tell it what you need it to do. Write down all of the caveats that need to be included in that contract and just try and make sure it's as watertight and simple to understand as possible because...

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (15:03)
I was thinking exactly the same.

I agree. Right, should we move on to the next email?

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (15:27)
Right, so we've had a question come in from somebody in Canada, was no name. So their question says, here in Canada, I feel that our pet food quality isn't as high as other countries. I've noticed big differences in coat health depending on the food, even when giving top brands and also raw diets. Could you please give me some information on supplements that can help when certain food ingredients are lacking? Also, is there any particular ways we can spot

differences in food quality. It seems like when you find a good brand, they then start changing the ingredients and suddenly my dog's coat starts falling out. Additionally, can I also ask what type of calcium supplements you recommend? When should they be started and how can we support our girls showing signs of eclampsia during and after labour? Okay, so there's quite a few questions to break down there actually.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (16:18)
Yeah. Firstly, I'm just going to quickly address the, you feed a food, it's really good. And then they

bait and switch where they, that suddenly just isn't what it used to be. And it's so frustrating when this happens. And I imagine it's either because for unforeseen circumstances, they have supplier issues.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (16:34)
Yep.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (16:43)
and then they have to swap suppliers and then that has an impact on the overall quality of the food. Or it kind of feeds into shrink flation and trying to maintain that food at a particular price point that they start trying to swap ingredients and then that ultimately impacts the quality of the food. Because I just think if it's not broken, don't fix it. And I'm sure they don't want to make

their lives difficult. So I think it must be because it's an external factor that then impacts how they produce the food that then impacts our dogs.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (17:23)
Yeah,

So another opinion that I've heard banded around is as soon as a food gets very, very popular, they're making suddenly a huge increase in profit. The actual motivations behind what they're doing shifts quite quickly when they get a smell for the blood that is money. And I've seen a few people sort of use that narrative around certain foods changing their ingredients where motives have changed from producing

a really high quality food with great ethically sourced products to let's make some money. So I'm on the same side of the fence as you that I don't believe that's what most businesses are doing because you'd hope that most pet businesses have our pet's best interest at heart and it's not monetary driven.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (18:04)
think most businesses want to grow with scale. But if it grows that fast, are they then going to have supply issues? Yeah, I get it from the point of you go, actually, we were ordering this amount of, meat from this company, and they can't actually produce enough for us. So we're going to have to find an additional supplier So I can see it.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (18:14)
Yep.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (18:27)
from the scale point of they just can't get the supply, what I found in business is that you're dependent on your suppliers doing their business, right?

And as you know, even from a supplement point of view, like I remember you had the problem with the Royal jelly that you just couldn't get hold of the stuff. So every business you're relying on the businesses that you depend on to get your product. Yeah, the supply chain. Yeah, exactly. The supply chain.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (18:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Your supply chains. Absolutely.

of

supply chain as well is absolutely paramount. I mean, Sara, you've seen the trials and tribulations I've gone through with years and years and years of trying to find factories and supply chains that are as transparent and honest as you'd hope they would be. And it's no different in the pet food industry.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (18:58)
Yeah.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (19:15)
It's actually worth noting, I know we're not in Canada, so for this specific question, but for our UK listeners, we actually have laws that govern how our pet food is described and labelled. And manufacturers that sell their dog food in this country simply have an option whether they declare the ingredient by category. They don't even have to list the specific ingredients on dog food. So instead of saying, for example, chicken hearts, chicken,

meat and corn, they can simply say meat and animal derivatives and cereals. So the reason that actually our UK legislation allows this is so that manufacturers can sub in and out ingredients to avoid supply chain issues.

So it's almost expected that pet food do change their ingredients based on seasonal availability, cost implications, shrink flation, Brexit regulations, know, there's zoonotic diseases going food sources, huge number of things that can implicate our

food supply chain. our government is literally expecting that pet foods will change their ingredients regularly.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (20:33)
Yeah, when you put it like that, the scale, you say, of supply is crazy. Like you see on, sorry for anyone not in the UK, but we have these programs on channel four where they literally go to the factories and you see behind the scenes of them making like tins of baked beans and biscuits. And they're quite simple products that no one goes, wow. When they pick one up off the shelf.

But the scale that they produce these products is say to get the ingredients to give that consistency is absolutely phenomenal. So yeah, why would we think it wouldn't be that straightforward for dog food? So now you put it like that.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (21:12)
Yeah, it's incredible.

And especially without going into too much depth and going on a bit of a tangent here, the scale of ultra processed foods down to minimally processed foods in dog foods is just as vast a range as it is in human food. So we can literally have pet food that is simple as going down to the butchers all the way

to the other end of the spectrum that is an ultra processed kibble that is made from already processed ingredients. So you could be looking at sort of third, fourth degree processed ingredients before it hits the dog's plate. So there is a huge number of steps that go into that supply chain. And that is why they are allowed to sub their ingredients.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (22:00)
So going back to the question, How can they spot the changes in food quality?

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (22:06)
So an easy way to spot changes in food quality first and foremost, sorry if you're eating your breakfast, dog's poo. is the most reliable indicator your dog's coat condition even becomes less dull, more scurvy, starts falling out, balding patches. That's already like a further down the line issue. So be watching that, that's the first way to spot it.

Also take a look at the ingredients on the packet of the dog food because if they are listing their ingredients by category then that means that they will be changing their ingredients on a regular basis or they intend to do so or they are giving themselves the leeway to do that on a regular by choosing a food that has very specific ingredients listed on the back as I said earlier such as chicken heart, beef, liver...

and incredibly clear and concise ingredients. They can't sub those without changing the ingredients on the packaging. So that's a really good way of picking a supplier for your dog food if then changing ingredients is an issue for your dogs. So that answers that one, hopefully.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (23:07)
Yeah, I think it's always hard. The more dogs you have, the more you want to make your life simple and have all your dogs on the same food. And you have an age range of dogs, that's not always possible because your young ones always going to be on a nutritionally higher content because their growth pattern and your old ones may be a nutritionally lower one because they're not moving as much. And then you've got your adults in the middle. And then...

you have different dogs with different tolerances. So at the moment, I've done a big switch. I was really happy all of mine were on cold pressed but I find the dogs do run really lean on it. And I suddenly looked at all my dogs and just went, you're already skinny. And when you're showing skinny dogs is not the thing. So I raw feed all the way through anyway. even as toppers, I'm a weird person that mixes.

and they seem okay on that,

in the future.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (23:56)
Variety is the spice of

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (23:59)
exactly. so I've put mine all on to, kibble and everybody's good on it apart from one dog. So now I'm just like, okay, I still need to find something that works for her. So this does all become more complex to manage the more dogs that you've got as well, because you say, look at stools and you think,

I could take that as, is that bad food or is that just bad food for her digestive system? And I'm taking it as 80 % of the dogs is good. So she's the one that I need to actually find a different food for and you say it might just be the food source or whatever. yeah, to make no illusions, the more dogs you have, sometimes the quicker a problem becomes apparent, but then equally it's harder to fix because there's more dogs to fix at the same

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (24:24)
Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's the same as us humans. No one size fits all. we can go out and enjoy lunch at the same restaurant, but we're certainly picking different things off the menu. I mean, I'm vegetarian and I'd like to think I'm thriving on my diet. But there's many people that couldn't dream of being vegetarian. So, you know, we all have different gut microbiomes. The dogs are exactly the same, just because they might be the same breed or live in the same environment of your house.

drinking the same water, doesn't mean their gut microbiome is the same. So they will digest foods differently and they potentially will not agree with certain foods. So.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (25:20)
Amazing. Okay, let's move on to the sort of second half of this email where they were asking about supplements.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (25:27)
She said there any specific supplements that she should be using to fulfill nutritional gaps based on certain foods or to help transitions easier? I think that'd be an entire podcast episode on its own. But what I would say is pet food is designed as pet food. That is as a maintenance diet for an average dog.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (25:33)
okay.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (25:47)
doing an average amount of exercise at the average point in its life. It's not typically designed for pregnant females, lactating bitches, weaning puppies. So if your dog is going through the breeding journey, their nutritional requirements change drastically compared to what that food is offering.

Two specific vitamins and minerals that I would bring up here that are always lacking in a pet food, Firstly is folic acid. The quantity of folic acid in a maintenance diet is absolutely far too low for the nutritional requirements of a pregnant female. And the requirement for folic acid absolutely skyrockets through pregnancy. If your bitch runs a deficiency of

folic acid in her diet. She is at 48 % more chance of having a cleft palate, a midline defect or a neural tube defective puppy. So supplementing with folic acid is so important through pregnancy in particular. And the other mineral I've mentioned here is selenium. Most pet food diets are not adequate even for maintenance in selenium.

and selenium deficiencies have been linked to a range of issues through the pregnancy journey, including reabsorption, missed pregnancies, and even fading puppy syndrome. So selenium is another one that you should be supplementing with if you are breeding a female dog in particular, not to mention stud dogs, and that's a whole other conversation as well.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (27:19)
Okay.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (27:20)
anything

to weigh in on that sorrow?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (27:22)
No,

no, I am. do all the things I listen to your advice and yes, Selenium was a new one to me, to my knowledge and skill set, to be honest, but I'm all in on it and Folic being a bulldog breeder has always been on the agenda. But like the conversations that we've had, I think when it comes to supplements, people need to understand it's the purity of the product.

is having the correct dosage and it's doing it for the correct duration, isn't it? And I think some people, they get the supplements, but they don't fulfill those criteria. And then they don't always get the results they're expecting because they haven't fulfilled those criteria. So if you are a person that is interested in supplements, obviously Isobel's got her canine nutrition Coach website. There's tons of information on there, but please, please, please make sure it's a good product, nice purity.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (27:49)
Exactly.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (28:13)
that you're giving it for the right amount of time and that you're giving the right amount for the weight of your dog.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (28:20)
Absolutely, because to be honest, if you're not fulfilling those three key requirements, it doesn't reduce the risk factor or it might reduce it only partially. So you could still end up with cleft palate puppies, for example, in the case of folic acid. So do it and do it properly and you'll save yourself the headache down the run.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (28:37)
And so that takes us on to the, what was it they asked about calcium?

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (28:41)
Yeah, absolutely. So the second half of question was, additionally, what type of calcium supplements do you recommend? When should they be started? How can we support our girl that is showing signs of eclampsia as well?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (28:41)
What did I also?

So obviously we have a whole episode, series one,

can't even think what it might be. Yeah.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (28:58)
The calcium conundrum, we have

done an entire episode on calcium because it is so vital for the breeding process.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (29:06)
episode four of series one is the Calcium Conundrum.

so we have a whole episode about calcium, but is there any updates that you specifically want to mention? Because obviously we're in the Facebook groups and we have a little look and I try not to get too involved. And when I do, I'll probably end up having an argument with someone. But I'm seeing at the moment a lot of comments. I don't know, the conversation about calcium.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (29:25)
Yeah

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (29:31)
seems to have changed somewhat in the whelping groups

from when we recorded series one over a year ago or coming up to a year ago now. I definitely feel like the conversation around calcium has changed because before it was kind of, should I give it or not? Now it's I'm giving it, but is it the right type and the right amount?

And now there seems to be sort of this counter argument about that people shouldn't be given it. So I don't know if you've seen that as well with Isobel and if you've got anything to add to that.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (30:03)
Yeah, I have actually, I've seen exactly the same conversations. It seems to becoming more divided where you seem to have a camp of people that don't do anything, don't do any supplements, believe that their dog's diet should be enough and that's that. And on the other hand, you're seeing more and more proactive owners that are wanting to seek the best advice and the best information and ensure their bitch has absolutely everything they need.

A topic that I'm starting to see pop up a lot at the moment is people discussing the PTH hormone, which is actually the parathyroid hormone. And some people may have seen it banded around online, certain individuals saying you should not give calcium to your female because it will dysregulate the PTH or the parathyroid hormone in the body. And you're more likely to cause eclampsia. Now...

What concerns me is these aren't vets that are posting these comments. These are people that are clearly sat within the group of dog owners that like to do as little as possible when they're breeding, that the diet should be enough, and that's that. Now, take a step back. When we are pregnant in the United Kingdom,

Our government will literally supplement our food sources with essential prenatal vitamins and supplements because they are so vital for our mammalian bodies that that is why those steps are being taken and that cost is being absorbed by our government in the United Kingdom. Now if that doesn't show people enough how vital prenatal supplements are, I would love to jump in and give a bit more a scientific

for this opinion if you want to learn a bit more.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (31:40)
I wonder if...

Weirdly, the sort of political unrest and politics and government is seeping through to us and then how much trust we place in what they do and then the science that's backed behind it and then how we breed dogs, bizarrely enough, because if you don't believe that to be true and you take the whole anti-government, anti-

then yeah, it's quite easy to go, let's just stick with what's simple we'll just feed a bit of broccoli and that'll do the job, which is kind of what it's in online.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (32:18)
completely agree with you Sara, but what's interesting there is when you actually ask those individuals what their bitches are fed on, they're just fed on a kibble nine times out of ten, which is not generally nutritious enough and nutrient dense with the range and the spectrum of minerals and vitamins that a pregnant bitch needs. So

actually feeding a diet that is wholly complete for that life stage that their bitch is in. So there are nutritional gaps.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (32:45)
But they've never had,

but if they've never had a problem, then that problem doesn't exist, isn't it? It is that classic, isn't it?

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (32:50)
Yes.

Yeah, and in the one

yeah, you're right. it's, and another thing that's worth mentioning is a game of numbers and it's breed specific as well. If you are a breeder, breeding volume, you are going to see more issues and you are, it's going to become apparent lot quicker how important diet and nutrition actually is to the wellbeing of your females and also puppies. I've received a lot of fantastic testimonials and feedback recently from,

many owners of different breeds saying when they've actually taken on board nutritional guidance and improved their dog's diets alongside correct prenatal supplements their puppies are being born at better birth weights and are stronger and thriving from a younger age. Now that's not by chance. So just because you may not have had an issue, does it mean that your bitch is in the best condition possible? Does it mean that your pups are absolutely thriving as best they can be? Not necessarily.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (33:44)
Yeah, I think it's interesting if obviously I'm bulldog. So I'm all in on folic acid. And if I still get a puppy with a cleft palate, I don't go, Oh my god, that folic acid didn't work. I go, I'm so glad it's only one because it could have been four. Like, how I framed that is totally different because I could have had a whole litter of

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (34:01)
Yeah.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (34:07)
cleft palates and we've seen it online and hair lips that people just literally have an entire litter with the problem. So I don't know, maybe it comes down to the breeders own perspective of their expectations of dog breeding and Until you had it go catastrophically wrong, you don't realise that you're in the good times.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (34:21)
wrong.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (34:27)
I think it's one of those you never realise that you're at the peak until you're in the trough and then you go, that peak was really high. So I do think it's dangerous to poo-hoo other people's considerations for wanting to do better when breeding their dogs, because that's ultimately what they're doing.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (34:28)
Yeah.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (34:45)
Does it make any difference to you if they give a Not really. So I don't understand why there would be a counter argument not to do it.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (34:51)
Well, I've had a think about this, Sara, and I think it's a narrative that we discuss quite often, is people like to believe that they are making the right decisions.

People feed themselves a narrative that suits their actions and their behaviours so that they feel like they can sleep at night. Now if you are somebody that doesn't have a large budget and you are going to feed your dog on the same maintenance diet that she's always been on and you're not going to make any changes, you're not going to do all these things through pregnancy or lactation and you don't believe in puppy still and life drops and you don't set up a proper welcome box and all of these corners that we would say are potentially being cut.

it would make sense that they are peddling a narrative that a dog is a dog, they came from a wild animal, they're a very instinctual species of animal that don't need any help and that they'll get through it on their own. Because then that owner can sleep at night knowing that then that is how they're treating their dog.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (35:50)
yeah I think it's quite deep the psychology behind all of this is quite deep and yeah I just think it's interesting

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (35:56)
yeah, full circle. reckon we could do a

whole podcast on psychology of dog owners because there's so much to it. And I think calcium is a very divisive topic. And another reason I see a lot of people say that they don't give calcium anymore or they are now hesitant about calcium is because they've previously given a liquid calcium that has made their female very, very sick. I personally have been in that situation over a decade ago.

I've been there, I hear of it all the time. I speak to clients all the time that have been there, done that. So they've stopped the calcium. And actually it's not the calcium that's making the bitches sick. It's the ingredients of a liquid calcium. Again, go and listen to the calcium podcast episode if you want to learn a bit more. But there are some really, really, really nasty ingredients in liquid calcium. So that is another misconception that people...

believe when it comes around to supplementing the calcium.

So going full circle, there's a few different opinions of maybe why some people are really pro calcium, some people are, I give it, but I don't give it anymore, or I don't know how to, and some people that are anti it. It's probably worth addressing the biggest counter argument, which is to do with the parathyroid hormone, because

It's an unfounded counter argument that is being spread online quite a lot at the moment. And it's not fair on new breeders to potentially be believing this information that is not from a veterinary nor science source and putting their bitches in jeopardy by not then supplementing with calcium based on this founding.

So there's been a growing opinion about whether calcium supplementation actually disrupts the parathyroid hormone in the body It's worth actually me clearing up that confusion and looking at the science behind calcium regulation in the body and therefore why certain types of calcium may be

better or worse than others. for those that don't know whistle stop tour calcium is absolutely vital for muscle contractions therefore is vital in whelping

And a sudden drop in calcium in bitches that are lactating is called eclampsia and it's completely life-threatening, otherwise known as milk fever.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (37:48)
one.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (37:58)
So the growing narrative around the fact that supplementing with calcium will disrupt the parathyroid hormone, preventing the body from regulating its own calcium, is only very, very tiny-ly and partly true. And it's only the case when the wrong type of calcium is given or at the wrong time in the pregnancy journey. So it's probably worth me breaking it down a little bit. I've mentioned the parathyroid hormone or PTH.

And this specific hormone is responsible for regulating the blood calcium levels. So when blood calcium drops too low, the PTH hormone actually signals the body to pull calcium from the bone stores to help maintain the balance. The same goes in theory when blood calcium rises far too high to dangerous levels, the PTH lowers its activity to prevent too much calcium from circulating. Now,

Taking a step back, problems only arise when too much calcium is given, specifically during pregnancy. I'll tell you why in a minute. So if a bitch is supplemented with calcium during pregnancy, yes, the parathyroid hormone activity does slow down because she's already been given plenty of calcium in the diet. The danger here is, therefore, when she suddenly needs a huge amount of calcium during the whelping process to contract her muscles,

Her body isn't ready because the parathyroid hormone hasn't been working as hard and therefore it won't then release enough calcium from the bone stores to support her through that incredibly vital window, which is whelping. And that is why supplementing with calcium before whelping is such a bad idea because it can lead to like hormone levels,

making it harder for her body to metabolise calcium when it's needed so urgently. However, once labour begins, the body naturally skyrockets and increases its parathyroid hormone activity to ensure the bitch has enough calcium at any one time in her body. If she doesn't have enough in the stores, obviously there's going to be not enough calcium. However, that PTH regulation is upregulated. So this is then, and only after the labour's begun,

Now the perfect time to provide her easily absorbable calcium because she can then metabolise that it works alongside the parathyroid activity so her body can then safely maintain and have enough calcium while her needs are so so high. Now the parathyroid hormone and stability of calcium only fails at this point when specifically the wrong type of calcium is used.

for example, a very poorly absorbable type like calcium carbonate, or when it's obviously given to her in the pregnancy, as I've already mentioned. I appreciate that was a little bit scientific for some people.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (40:47)
So what's the right calcium? If they were to look on the packet...

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (40:51)
So the right calcium,

yeah, so there's several different types of calcium. There's a few things you've got to consider. How easily it's absorbed by the body, step one. How safe it is for the body to be absorbing it. How easy it is to obviously source in the first place and whether it's going to dysregulate the parathyroid hormone.

So for example, calcium carbonate is a poor choice. This is a sort you'll find in chalk, tums, eggshells, because they are very poorly absorbed by the body and the actual elemental calcium content is very, very low. And as I said, the safety absorption of that also isn't ideal because it can cause problems like kidney strain and also bladder stones.

So for specific breeds like Dalmatians, it's just not ideal at all. So on the flip side, you've got good calcium choices like calcium citrate, and it's a particularly great choice for bitches because it's highly absorbable. So the body can absorb it really, really easily. It doesn't require a strong stomach acid to be broken down and it doesn't affect the pH of the stomach, which is obviously really important for a girly that is facing.

naturally a bit of digestive issues after giving birth. Calcium citrate also supports the parathyroid hormone regulation because it's so efficiently absorbed, the body isn't desperately working to get the calcium out of it. So it actually works alongside the natural hormone balance rather than shutting it down.

Calcium citrate is such a great option as well because it's so easily absorbed. It's a rapid source of calcium in the body as well. So it's not taking ages to kick in. You've not got risk of bladder stones like the calcium carbonate. So it won't contribute to any urinary issues and excess calcium carbonate is safely excreted.

So that's why using a particular bioavailable form e.g. calcium citrate is such a good idea. So goes back to three things. Your purity is so important to the type of calcium and the duration of when you're giving it. the window, never in pregnancy, only once labor's begun and for the entire time she is lactating, particularly if she's a high risk breed. And the...

quantity or the dose that you're giving is just as important as well because if If you're only giving a tiny tiny amounts you're obviously not going to reduce her risk of eclampsia. So it's a massive topic there's a lot to digest there, excuse the pun.

So hopefully that sort of answered for a lot of people the queries and concerns around why would I, how do I do it, when don't I do it.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (43:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's a mammoth topic that you're not having that type of conversation or input on a Facebook post.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (43:25)
No, I don't have time for that. I don't have time for Facebook, let alone a mini podcast episode under those comments. at the end of the day, our listeners are amazing proactive dog owners. That's why we're all here. And we always find that it's those proactive dog owners that have the learning mindset. we all want to learn more. We want to be doing the best for our dogs. And this is the community where we're sharing these ideas. Some people like to be set in their ways and that's fine. We're probably not for them anyway.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (43:27)
I'm

Well, I know we've had separate conversations about the difference between fixed mindset, open mindset and growth mindsets. And without a doubt, anyone in life that has a growth mindset will achieve a lot more

And I think that's where the danger comes with dog breeding, particularly for the people that pedigree dogs that have a fixed breed standard is you can become a fixed mindset-ed breeder, if that's ever such a word, where you stick with tradition, you know that that works and you know that that's true, but you have to have a growth mindset because the world, as we've already said, continually changes around us.

new discoveries of new techniques, new products, new discoveries of biology, science, all that kind of stuff. And so you have to keep incorporating that. And it is quite, it's tiring to constantly be thinking what's happening now? How's that going to affect me? How's that going to affect my dogs? If you literally woke up every morning and asked yourself that question, what you did last year will be different to what you do today And I think you alluded it

to it earlier about the pace of dog breeding, where if you

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (45:04)
Yeah.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (45:05)
breed once a year, you're already a year behind everybody else that's had a litter in a shorter duration to that. And I've learned a lot or I appreciate having a stockman mentality now about breeding dogs, because actually,

to a degree, the faster you breed the faster you flush out the problems, the faster you can fix them. But if you don't breed at that pace, because you're not inclined to, you don't have that interest, essentially lagging behind. So you need that growth mindset to make sure that you keep in front of the curve, or at least keep up with the curve and the changing trends and opportunities. So yeah, as you say,

the psychology behind dog breeding just seems to be huge the more that we discuss stuff and try and unpick why people do things And I think that's why the type of breeder you are will have a huge impact in how you read your puppies, obviously, but your attitude that you bring to it and that you take to it, whether you are a person, if it's not broke, don't fix it. Or if you go,

Now it's not broke, but it doesn't mean that I still can't do better.

That's my tangent

sorry.

So right,

get we need. So, okay, I think we've covered that hopefully that person in Canada, we haven't bamboozled them. they're gonna walk away a knowing how to spot changes in dog food and why that might be the case. And be also the considerations in regards to calcium and the counter trend that seems to be happening and

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (46:21)
I completely agree.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (46:43)
why that might be misplaced. Should we move on to one more email?

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (46:50)
Yeah, let's, let's, you can choose one this time.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (46:51)
Okay, right. Yeah, I'm

going to go with Lara's because it's in regards to TCI. So trans cervical insemination. So she said in your latest episode you discuss experiences with TCI and the different methods. I'd love to hear a dedicated episode where that may happen in the future. But for now, take this as the response.

A dedicated episode on insemination timing and the ways to improve success rates, including aftercare. Having experienced a failed TCI, I'm keen to expand my knowledge on this. Now, this is an interesting one because the reproduction vet that I deal with, basically, they wouldn't deem a pregnancy difficult until you've had a failed TCI.

So your normal natural breeding, your transvaginal AI, your fertility clinic AIs, if that misses, they wouldn't even class that as a problem breeding. It's not until you've done a TCI, so that's when the semen is deposited through the cervix, so an endoscope is put in, which is a rod with a camera, and they can find the opening of the cervix, and then they deposit the semen through the cervix.

So it literally does no swimming. just goes, oh, there's an egg. I need to fertilise it. So for that reason, the success rate should be high because if you've got two healthy dogs, it should work. But generally, if people are doing a TCI, it's because you haven't necessarily got two fertile dogs. So for instance, if you're using frozen semen,

that semen has already been for a process. It's been stored in liquid nitrogen. So has temperature of minus whatever. then it's woken back up and then it's deposited. and it could have been stored for a year, 10 years, 20 years, I've heard up to 30 years.

and how it's stored can make a huge difference as well. So if you're doing a TCI because of the semen, then obviously that's not two fertile dogs. And equally, if you're doing a TCI because the bitch has previously missed and now you're resorting to a TCI, then obviously she's sub fertile, so to speak. and equally, why would you do a TCI with two fit and healthy dogs?

you generally wouldn't, would you? Though I have done randomly by pure chance. And that was because I was doing a dual sire breeding and one of the dogs was a complete an-utter jaffa So I ended up using a super fertile male on doing a TCI because when you do a TCI, it's three days after ovulation, not two days after ovulation, which is when a typical optimal breeding is.

I had no choice but to do a TCI then because we would have missed her because we've now outside of the optimal for a typical breeding. And so I did that, knock, that wasn't the plan, but that's what happened. And then I ended up with 10 puppies. and that's 10 puppies on a bulldog, which I would say an average litter size is four to six pups. And that makes sense because I had a fit and

healthy, fertile male and a fit and healthy, fertile female. And I ended up doing the TCI that I didn't need to do, which gave me 10 puppies, which I didn't need in a bulldog. you wanna add anything to that, Isobel, before I harp on even more? Cause I've got a lot to say on this one.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (50:16)
No, that's perfect. So think you've given everyone a whistle stop tour on what a TCI is, when the generic timing of it is and why you'd do one, which is brilliant. So let's jump in a bit more Lara's question. She would love to hear a bit more on timing, how to improve success rates and what she should be doing for aftercare.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (50:36)
And actually, I think maybe it's the aftercare bit that I've talked about in another podcast, because what people need to remember is that not all reproduction specialists are equal. And this actually ties in with the fixed mindset and the growth mindset and the open mindset. And some specialists, whatever, I guess it just comes down to the type of person you are and whether you're

willing to move from one mindset to another to improve what you're doing and how you are in life. But you will stumble across people and it's very apparent they are growth mindset. And thankfully the reproduction place that I use, they are growth mindset. It's not this is what we do and this is how we're going to do it. This is what we do.

but let's look at the situation and can we make it better? they're constantly revising what they're doing to improve the quality of what they do. So that's for me, what makes that reproduction specialists so good, because they're constantly looking to achieve. And likewise, if they get a miss, so I always like report back to them you know, the outcomes of it all, because I'm hoping that they start going, oh,

When we do this type of TCI when we have this type of problem, ends up with this type of result. And what can we do to allay that or stop that or encourage that, whatever it might be. And so I'm always keen to feed back to them, whether it worked, how many pups were expected, did they deliver okay? Was there bigger problems, that kind of thing. And so you're not going to know that if you...

Go for your, I was gonna say yellow pages. That's an old reference. If you go on Google and search your nearest reproduction clinic until you go and use them, I mean, you could ask them some questions, but if you don't know what you're doing, then you're not gonna know that they're, know what they're doing or not.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (52:34)
Yeah, and if they're just doing the service which it says on the tin which is can I book in for TCI? Yes, sure you can, here's the price, here's our availability. Then I can see why some people are getting unstuck. Not all services are created equal. Just because they are getting the service it says on the tin, whether or not the aftercare is then the same, whether the procedure's actually the same, the timing's the same, there's a lot of things that can differ.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (52:59)
Yeah,

yeah, 1000%. think what you need to bear in mind, a place that's well established obviously tells you that if they've been in business that long, they must be good at what they do. However, they can fall into a fixed mindset because they could be the people that this is what we did 20 years ago and it works. So this is what we're going to carry on doing.

And I think it's worth bearing in mind that even the tools that they're using, the equipment that they're using is expensive. Any medical equipment is expensive. So if it's a practice where they're using the same equipment 20 years ago to now, the technology has the rate of improvement of technology is crazy. Even the tools that they could be using could be substandard to what's available now.

And no one ever goes in thinking, endoscope are you using? Is that going to make your job easier or not in regards to achieving the success that I need? So that's the level of detail that you kind of have to work out. And if you were to ask them, how much does that cost? Is it the newest? They'd probably be quite put out that you're asking those kind of questions. And I think it's a bit weird at least. But I think it's that level of detail of knowing

equipment they're using and like we said about the timing, different reproduction centers will say different numbers and different patterns of when they think the TCI should be done because it comes down to that person's opinion and that can be again different because different blood machines are calibrated different in regards to progesterone testing

And it drives me crazy. You just can't compare a six on this machine and the six on that machine, which is what people are trying to do online when they say my machine rolled off at this. What, should I do now? And someone goes, well, I bred my bitch at that. And I ended up with 10 pups. They're not the same that's like trying to say, I guess all cows are the same type of cows. And obviously there's not.

There's all different types of cows, dairy cows. I don't know anything about cows. I don't know why I the cow analogy. Why do that? Shoes. Yeah, right. That's like saying all the shoes are the same, you know, like a pair of shoes, majority of them have a sole and you put your feet in them. But some have got heels, some are trainers, some have got laces that they're just so different that you couldn't compare a pair of Jimmy Choo's to a pair of Nike's, could you? You're two totally different worlds as to when you would wear those.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (55:02)
I was gonna say that's pretty rogue.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (55:24)
So the equipment is really important. And I think almost the more established they are, the more you need to make sure they're running with the most current equipment and the pattern of ovulation will differ. And I guess equally, it's quite hard to phone up a reproduction place and go, what's your success rate? Because for them,

they can do their service the time you're there, the hour that you have the appointment with them to do the TCI, that's the only thing they're in control of. As soon as you walk out their door and you do something, you take your bitch on an eight mile hike, or she has a massive fight with another top bitch that's in your kennel, or you get hospitalized and the dogs have to go to care. Like that's totally without their control. The food that they're fed.

the Stud Dog that you've used. So to ask them what their success rate equally is quite offensive

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (56:18)
Yeah, realistically,

they can only do their best. And even if they're doing their best on a situation that should work, like you said, they're controlling 1 % of that journey.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (56:28)
Yeah. So anywhere that boasts, you know, I see some clinics, they go like a 93 % success rate. Well, how much is that really down to you? You know, You just managed to get, put some sperm in the right place, but there's so much more to that than just doing that. So going back to TCI's, yeah. Improving success rates for yourself, I think,

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (56:41)
Yeah.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (56:52)
What I see with the most successful breeders is they are relentless in their approach to breeding. They are almost systematic to, I don't care what the situation is, but I feed my bitch this. She has these supplements. She has this exercise routine. She lives in these type of, you know, lifestyle. They are routine with what they do. And actually they treat every single female the same.

because that's the only way. So I some people go, this female, I'm not going to start ovulation testing until day 14 because last time she didn't ovulate till day 16. But then on another female, they start day nine. No, just start day nine regardless. because the only way as a breeder for you to identify problems quickly is when you stick to your plan, but you don't get the result you're expecting. Then you go.

What do I need to change? And what's the change you're going to make for everybody? Because I want to improve that success rate for everybody. And so someone might be doing that falls outside of that plan. That's fine. But then you need another little plan. When I do a TCI, what do I do? How do I do this approach? And I think that's.

what needs to become apparent is that you have your system, your breeding plan, your best practice breeding plan. This is what I do for a natural breeding. This is what I do if we need an AI. This is what I do if we need a TCI and you stick to those patterns and you're not swayed from them because the stud dog said, you don't need to bother doing this until this day or we don't need to do this or you need like, you can get easily swayed by people that aren't the professionals.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (58:39)
at a time that's so emotive, when you're planning to breed your girl for long awaited puppies and there's emotions involved and that is when, well, what's the old saying? Emotion clouds judgment.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (58:49)
Yeah, a thousand percent. And the aftercare. So in regards to TCI, whatever your protocol is for breeding a bitch, you do that protocol, whatever that is. Ultimately, if you do a TCI, it typically means you have to do more ovulation testing. So more progesterone testing. That's the only type of testing you should be doing for a TCI, none of the others.

are good enough, you'll have to do more of that testing almost every other day, because you need to see the ovulation pattern and you actually test past ovulation because you need to make sure it keeps going up in the direction that everyone's assuming it's going to go. You would do your TCI three days after ovulation, not typically two days after ovulation. And then you would only do one TCI. well unless

The semen quality was low and you're being advised by your reproduction specialist, maybe we should do another one tomorrow because the viability of this semen isn't very good. And then some people, there is no post TCI protocol. However, I like who I use who basically says is 21 days from the TCI.

24 days from ovulation, you would ultrasound scan her. If you can see gestational sacs, at no point are you confirming that they're viable or numbers. But if you can see a gestational ovulation sac, then you would actually re-test her. So you'd run progesterone levels again.

to make sure they're high enough to the rest of the pregnancy. And then if those results are good, then amazing. If they're not, then you might have to supplement with progesterone. So that's why that's so key, because progesterone has to stay high to maintain a pregnancy. And you'd literally be giving her progesterone

up until a due day and then you would stop the progesterone and then she would technically go into labor or the puppies would at least be ready to be birthed. at worst case, if she doesn't naturally go into labor, then you would C-section her to make sure, because you you can't have the pups go overdue basically because you pinpointed exactly when she ovulated.

and then that could be detrimental to the puppies. But if the levels are high enough, then you carry on as usual, but you would still need to do your typical scan. Generally, then you'd leave it to about 35 days and do your puppy count scan, check viability, and carry on as whatever type of pregnancy would normally be anyway. But that little after care, some repro centers won't suggest, but I feel that

It should happen because if progesterone isn't high enough, it's like process of elimination, isn't it? You need to find out where the problem is. Because if you're there because it's a low fertility breeding, you need to find out was post-mating and that is actually pregnancy related, not conception related. So that's the whole point of doing that test.

And as I say, I don't know how many places do it. I only know that my place does it. They're amazing. And I've run bloods for people where it hasn't been high enough to sustain a pregnancy. So they've had to give progesterone and it has resulted in viable puppies. So to me, it's more than worth doing. But again, none of this is simple.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:02:19)
not simple, is this is such high level experiences that you will only hear about should you have a friend that's been through it or a mentor that can offer this sort information for you so you've imparted some serious wisdom there Sara.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:02:34)
Yeah, and just sorry to add on in regards to if you have a failed TCI, then hopefully that reproduction specialist will be able to offer you what you need to do next. Because it depends what if it was a frozen insemination fail, then you just go well, we just go again, we use a live dog that's cooking on gas and that will literally sort out.

most problems. So it depends on what the reason the fail was. If you're using frozen or somebody's subpar in their fertility, then you're always going to increase the chances of there being a fail. So that's just the way the world. So but that's the whole point of having you're paying these professionals. really not just for their service, you want their knowledge. what I've realized is even with dog breeding.

And when someone buys a puppy, they don't, they do want the puppy, but they're buying the breeders knowledge that has created that puppy. Cause that's why it's as good as it is. So it is your, your buying knowledge not just the service, not just the product.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:03:36)
Exactly. So Lara got a lovely little whistle stop tour there on what you'd recommend for next time. And for those of you that haven't heard about TCIs, that would have been fascinating, no doubt.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:03:46)
Yeah, I mean, most people won't need to get involved with it unless having fertility problems or they are being creative with their breeding plans and trying to do something slightly different for the betterment of their breed. So it just depends how much you want to get into it or not.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:04:02)
Exactly, exactly that. So we've got so many more questions here, but we're probably running out of time, which leads me on pretty nicely to why we're having to do an additional episode, because we are getting so many questions in, which is just truly fantastic to see that everyone is so engaged and enjoying the community really. So Sara, do you want to tell everyone what's going on?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:04:08)
Yes.

Yeah,

we've got, well, we're excited to say that we're going to do a live Q &A session on the 31st of March at 7pm UK time. So hopefully Americans, Canadians, anyone that side of the world can join us because we're doing it in the evening here. So you'd be able to jump on in the daytime where you are. Anyone that's in the opposite side of the world.

You're gonna have to stay up until one o'clock in the morning. Yeah, exactly.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:04:56)
we look forward to seeing you at midnight. Make sure you bring your midnight snacks and your cup of cocoa and

yeah, it'd be nice little bedtime session for you.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:05:05)
Yes, so we will put the links out. It will be in the Facebook community. We will send, if you're on the email list, we'll send out the links on the email list. We're probably going to try and do it between YouTube and Instagram, maybe, did we say?

Sorry, yeah, sorry, yeah,

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:05:19)
bit of Facebook. We haven't decided yet where it's gonna be streamed.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:05:22)
we're going to try and stream on as many platforms as possible. So if you don't follow us on any of those platforms, then make sure you do go and follow us and make sure you turn on the notification bell because then that means you'll get the notification when we go live. But we're really keen to, yeah, speak to some of you people in person if you want to actually chat to us direct

we're happy for questions to be submitted while we're live as well and we'll fly off the cuff on that one

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:05:51)
absolutely. Come and join the chit chat.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:05:53)
Yeah,

exactly. Join us. And I think we posted up on Instagram and somebody said about the Q &A's and they feel like they're in the room with us. So this is the opportunity to literally be in the room with us. Yeah, you can actually. Exactly, exactly.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:06:04)
literally be in the room with us. Yeah, see they are even more unpolished version. Get

involved and come and little tangent segways and rabbit holes we go down live as we go down them. And like Sara said, if you can't make the live but you have got questions you want us to answer, please email them through to podcast @ breedersbrew.com or send them to us on Facebook or Instagram or.

or through the Facebook community. And we will endeavour to do our best to get through as many questions as possible on Monday, the 31st of March at 7pm.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:06:38)
And we've also got a big announcement to make during that live as well. So if you want to hear firsthand what that might be, you definitely need to dial in.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:06:42)
Yes we have.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:06:48)
you just...

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:06:48)
A rather

large cat will be coming out the bag won't it Sara?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:06:52)
None of us have got cats. There needs to be a better saying than that.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:06:54)
Well yeah,

God, why are they talking about cats?

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:06:56)
Why

we're moving into cat breeding. Though a lot of what we said does apply to cat breeding, so it's always possible. But yeah, so we hope you've enjoyed this time with us. And if you want to spend more time with us, then definitely join us on the live on the 31st March 7 PM.

Isobel (Canine Nutrition Coach) (1:07:01)
Yes.

we look forward to seeing you there and sharing some even more exciting news with you. Over and out. And a bye from me. See you next week.

Sara (Canine Family Planner) (1:07:16)
Okay, right, that's a bye from me then.

See

ya!

Sara Lamont (1:07:21)
We hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did recording it. I'm sure you've probably worked out by now that not all Facebook whelping groups are made equal. We strongly recommend you come and join us by simply searching Breeders Brew Community on Facebook and requesting to join the group filled with proactive and passionate puppy practitioners.