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Babes in Bookland
A podcast celebrating women's memoirs, one story at a time!
Babes in Bookland
AUTHOR CHAT: Amanda McCracken's "When Longing Becomes Your Lover"
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What if the high you’re chasing isn’t love at all, but the thrill of uncertainty?
On pub day, we sit down with author Amanda McCracken to unpack limerence (the obsessive, anxious fixation that can masquerade as romance) and how naming the pattern helped her trade fantasy for reciprocity. We connect the dots between anxious-avoidant dynamics, social media ambiguity, and the dopamine hit of anticipation that keeps us hooked on “what if.” Amanda shares how purity culture shaped her choices, why “safe” once felt boring, and how a later-in-life ADHD diagnosis helped things click.
If you’ve ever been caught up in breadcrumbing, ghosting, or the mental movie of an idealized other, this episode offers a clear path forward. You’ll learn how to spot limerence, interrupt the rumination loop, and build self-compassion so you can trust your choices and choose people who choose you back. Plus, Amanda shares more about her podcast The Longing Lab. Listen, share with a friend who’s ready for healthier love, and if this resonated, subscribe and leave a review to help others find the show.
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If you have any comments or questions, please connect with me on Instagram or email babesinbooklandpodcast@gmail.com. I’d love to hear your suggestions and feedback!
Link to this episode’s book:
When Longing Becomes Your Lover by Amanda McCracken
Other links:
The Longing Lab Podcast
The Peace Boat
This episode is produced, recorded, and edited by me.
Special thanks to my new friend, Amanda.
Xx, Alex
Connect with us and suggest a great memoir!
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Pub Day, Memoir, And Generosity
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Babes in Bookland, your women's memoir podcast. I'm your host, Alex Franca, and today author Amanda McCracken joins us to discuss her memoir, When Longing Becomes Your Lover, breaking from infatuation, rejection, and perfectionism to find authentic love. Hi, Amanda. Happy pub day, by the way. How are you feeling?
SPEAKER_01Hey, thanks, Alex. Um, yeah, I'm I'm relieved. I'm thrilled. I'm kind of a mixture of emotions, but yeah, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00And I know that you've sent out ARCs. Like, have you had any cool feedback so far?
SPEAKER_01I guess I've heard people that say, Oh, I've never made those kinds of connections before, between which I guess we'll probably get into some of what those connections are during the podcast. And that's kind of what I'm hoping for that people may have heard of Limerence, may not have, have heard of Purity Culture, but haven't like maybe connected the two, or know their their own patterns with ADHD, but have never connected it with romantic obsessive longing. And so, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You provide a great template for all of us, no matter what we may or may not be struggling with, to reflect. And I found your memoir just so interesting. I had never heard of Limerence before. And I felt like your memoir was really generous. You don't hold back on showing us the maybe cringier parts of our dating lives. Moments that I mean, if if we're all being honest, we probably have parallel experiences too. And you seem to have really found a love and respect for the younger Amanda who was going through this really tricky thing without realizing why she was acting a certain way. And like I said, I think that whether your readers are struggling with limerence or not, your memoir provides us all with an opportunity to reflect on how we value ourselves and why. And it encouraged us all to maybe have a little bit more compassion for ourselves in all stages of our lives. So I'm excited to get into it with you today. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01That actually kind of made me tear up, you know, because I don't think that was a goal of mine in writing this was to like care for my younger self, which is important now that I have a five-year-old daughter, to be like, okay, how can I show more compassion for her or demonstrate compassion for myself more so that she has it for herself too?
SPEAKER_00I have a seven-year-old daughter and I'm in the same boat. I think it's really important as women, as mothers, to create that voice inside of their heads to help support them for the rest of their lives. And I think the voice inside our heads, you know, we've had to reprogram it a bit. Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. Absolutely. And also give our own mothers, I think, some grace, not blaming them for how we turned out or anything, but but I guess realizing it's not easy being a mom.
Defining Limerence And Attachment
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So before we get further into it, let's define limerence. Introduce this term to us. We'll dig into it a lot more.
SPEAKER_01It was this term coined in the late 70s by this experimental psychologist, Dorothy Tenhoff, who was observing these people in this experience that they it felt like love. But it was this heightened state of anxiety and excitement, often, sometimes obsessively, ruminating about someone that they've put on a pedestal, an idealized version of someone. So, you know, which we do with crushes. It's but it was more intense than just a crush. Sometimes it became so so strong that it preoccupied a lot of their thoughts and kept them from, you know, doing normal activities or work or whatever it is. It's really fueled by uncertainty. So we look culturally, we're we're put in positions in online dating and social media where there's a lot of uncertainty. People are getting ghosted all the time, there's a lot of ambiguity in dating. So obviously, it makes sense that f that limerence is really picking up steam in terms of like a term that people are like, oh, what is this? Even though it's been around since the late 70s. It was a term that kind of got lost in the dust. It seems like when attachment style got a lot of focused, at least from what I've read about um scientifically, like the more of the research and money got thrown into looking at attachment styles.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01A little bit more about it related to attachment styles is people who have an anxious attachment style are more prone to limerence. Okay. Then the people the people they're putting on the pedestal are often more often like the avoidant types, because it's easier because you there's so much uncertainty with avoidant types. So that kind of maybe in a nutshell gives you an idea of what limerence is.
SPEAKER_00You do write this, which I'd love to quote. On his site, livingwithlimerence.com, Tom Bellamy explains the many ways in which indecisiveness worsens limerence, which ultimately spirals downward into distrusting yourself. Failure to decide erodes self-confidence, he states. You subconsciously train yourself into the beliefs that you are not empowered to decide. You are not confident in your choices, you lack willpower, you aren't in charge of yourself, you are too fearful to take a leap of faith. What has emrance meant to you discovering that word?
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, yeah, and Tom Bellamy was one of the many experts I talked to. You know, that I think the choice piece that that section comes later in the book. I have this like little um card. I think it's hidden behind on my bulletin board here, where it's about making decisions that my dad had given me, probably even in high school or college, because I was always so indecisive. Anyways, I think that's one aspect of limerence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I what I love about your title is it feels so clear. It's not the person, it's the longing. It's this idealized, romanticized version of love or of that person, just like you said. And I think it's interesting because I think we all experience that a little bit, but I can't wait to get further into what it means to actually like self-diagnose or be diagnosed with limerence. Cause as everything, right, there's always a scale. And I think the further you're into it, the more maybe peeling back that you have to do to rebuild that internal value in order to combat continuing this trail of limerence, which, you know, you had a long journey, Amanda. Let's talk about why you wanted to sit down and write this memoir. Because you include a lot of sources in your memoir. You just, we just mentioned Tom Bellamy, and you include a lot of books and a lot of articles about limerence. But what do you feel that your memoir offers that those other books do not?
SPEAKER_01Great question. To back up a little bit, I started writing this before I knew the term limerence, which I think is kind of i important because I mean I was writing my way out of my patterns before I had, quote, happy ending, right? And I I don't believe that everything is just a happy ending, right? It's still, there's still struggle and there in marriage, there's always challenges. But I think what my book offers is that as far as I can tell from what I've seen in other books that talk specifically about limerence, mine is coming at it from the standpoint of like a personal story with science and sociology and spirituality woven into it, as well as um other people's experiences with it. Because personally, I have a really short attention span. We'll probably get into talking about ADHD. I don't like just reading somebody's strict memoir. I like, I like a mix of stuff. So that's that's why I wrote it the way I did. So that's that's the difference, I think, because there are a lot of psychologists and not a lot, but there are more and more psychologists, neuroscientists that are writing about it, but more from a strictly mental health standpoint.
SPEAKER_00I actually really appreciate the mix of memoir and then scientific perspective, I guess, like yours would be, because it's a lot easier for me to resonate with or like see parallels with my own life. And so I always appreciate when a memoir like invades this scientific space. And it's like, okay, yes, all of this is true, and I read about it, but this was my specific experience with it, which just gets more personal. And I think it's just there's a stronger emotional attachment that can happen when you're reading someone's actual story of going through it. And it feels less, what's the right word? Like it's your fault or something. Yes, yes, exactly. It's not like someone talking at you, it's someone sharing their story with you. You're inserting yourself as you want to or as feels comfortable for you. Was there a piece of information or something you read that just made everything as you're, I guess as you're writing it, like you said, everything that you've been feeling or thinking click? Because like I said, you're really generous and I appreciated so much how how many others work you included.
Choice, Indecision, And Self-Trust
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Yeah. And that was something that I sometimes my editor would be like, but we want to hear more about you. Like, okay, we've we you trust yourself. This was a thing throughout the whole thing when I think about it, you know, that she'd be like, trust your experience to matter. Yeah. You know, and not just weaving in the science and the quotes from these other experts, you know. And that was a lesson that I had to learn as a writer, I think, through this was to trust that my experience actually mattered and was relatable for other people. But one of the pieces as I was as I was doing the research and writing it was I had come across this article, I think it's called uh online called like ADD Attitude, ADT, A D D I T U D E or something like that. And it talked about romantic crushes and ADHD. And I was like ding ding ding ding ding, like making all these connections. It didn't fix the past, but it helped explain the past for me a bit. And and there was another book book that I really loved that was written in like the 80s. The author's been gone for a long time, and she was a Freudian psychoanalyst, um, Ethel Person, I think was her name. Dreams of Love and Faithful Encounters, I think it was called. And she also talked about this idea of the lover shadow, which I really found a hard time. I found it hard to really encapsulate it as I was even writing it. But I I got it in my head. There is this idea that you even as a young person, you have this concept of this ideal lover. You don't call them like unnecessarily lover when you're a kid, but you have this concept of maybe it's a hero or whatever it is. And then you kind of, as you're growing up, and this was like a Freudian psychoanalytic look at it, you're you're uh looking at other people through that lens to see, oh, do they match up? Kind of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that was really interesting too. I was like, oh yeah, I think I totally did that.
SPEAKER_00You know, they say we marry our parents, but I wouldn't, I feel like reading your memoir, which maybe you didn't share as much about your father as because you're nodding right now. I know where the Were you searching for your father also? Like, did you discover that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I didn't go into it quite as deeply because I yeah, I think the guys that I was attracted to were often men who had a hard time uh showing um affection unless they were drunk. My dad never drink, so that wasn't an issue. That's not part of the story, but it was more so that I was attracted to these men who were more avoidant and may have really liked me, but had a really hard time expressing it or were critical. Yeah, I didn't really go into that a whole lot in the book. I hinted at it with my father, right? Because obviously you picked up on it that he he did love me and he does love me deeply. I can tell. He shows his love more than like saying it, you know, or and I talk about the one-armed hugs, I think, in the book. And since he read that passage, he he tries his best to give me two armed hugs on his own volition. That was his his choice. I do not think I married my father. Dave's very different in ways that he is very caring and I respect him. In that way, I I married my father, if that makes sense. Yeah. His his heart, I think they both have really good hearts and intention. So in that way, like Dave's much more affectionate. In some ways, that was something I really had to get used to.
SPEAKER_00And to touch on all of that, which we will get further into it, because I I love to talk about process first, but it's just we're bringing up so much great stuff. I did appreciate, like, you didn't villainize any of these guys. Me as the reader, I was like, come on, guys, get it together. Like, how could you do that? But it's hard to be a young person. Love is complicated, feelings are complicated, and it wasn't about them. It was about you and your experience with them. There was a lot of bad behavior, in my opinion. There was a lot of them kind of dragging you along, or maybe saying just enough to keep you interested or excited or feeling like there was something more there, but you didn't villainize them in a way where it wasn't Amanda being like, and these guys all sucked. It was like, here are the lessons that I learned from them. Clearly, these guys need to learn a lot of lessons too, you know. But I appreciated that. I think that's a part of that compassion and that grace that you extended for everyone in your memoir.
Memoir Weaving Science And Story
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Yeah, thank I'm glad you recognized that or saw that because yeah, I didn't want to make these guys out to be awful because it was, I, you know, I it's one-sided, right? I only know what I was feeling and what I was experiencing, and and um, I don't know their own childhood and I don't know so many pieces of their story. I do appreciate the lessons that I learned from them. I had my chance, as we all do, to back out. And often I just convinced myself that there was something there when there wasn't enough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as I also have been guilty of doing. So I'm lost. Okay, before we get further into that, let's talk a little bit more about your process. Were there any ways that your memoir shifted as you wrote it?
SPEAKER_01I didn't have the really the term anchormen until I was doing some more research on memories. Before I think they were, it was called they were kind of some of them were thrown in this chapter called The Deserters because I felt deserted. So that's more villainizing, I think. And then the changing it to the anchormen was different because it's more about how memories associated with them were like anchor memories that impacted how I moved through the rest of my love life. There were a couple scenes that I had to figure out where they where they fit. And I remember having conversations with my husband specifically about the artist, and he was like, he doesn't belong here. He belongs in this, he's a stranger. You never really knew him. You thought you did. And I really appreciate that. My husband can sit back. You know, and it's painful somewhat for him to hear some of these stories over and over, but he can be, he gets it, right? He can sit back and be like, no, no, no, you didn't know that guy. You thought you did. So that was interesting. And the last chapter was something that got added probably in like the last editing process. That's kind of a more of a stronger reflection where I'm at now. But overall, the the general structure of it for the most part remained the same. But it was something, it wasn't like a lot of writers have their memoir written and submit it. And I had pieces, I had ideas, I had the proposal, but it was written really like from March, April 2024 until I think I was finishing like final edits in September. Wow. The story was there, but I was still understanding it better and better as I wrote it and I was incorporating stuff that um people I spoke to and researched, like making connections.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Were there any surprises as you were going through this writing process where you were like, oh my gosh, kind of like I guess the stranger, the artist, this whole time I thought I knew him and I didn't. Anything else kind of like that?
SPEAKER_01It kind of goes along with the I the question that often comes up related to writer's block. I would have times when things were it wasn't a total block, but they just weren't flowing. And then other times where I just couldn't turn it off. I couldn't stop making the connections. And often it was when I would feel like things weren't flowing. I would get out for a run or a swim. Then that's when I would start making the connections that I needed to. I would figure it out. I would like work it out of my brain while I was running or swimming. And sometimes I even kept like a little pad of paper at the end of the pool to like jot it down, or while I was running, I'd take notes on my phone. And I found that I really could not work at night because if I did, I just could not turn my brain off. I couldn't go to sleep. I still cannot. That just happened the other night. Wasn't working on the I was working more on marketing the book, but I still could not, I could not turn off my brain.
SPEAKER_00I I know that life it's hard. And I think it's really interesting that you were able to make these connections almost when you got out of your own way, when you gave your body or your mind something else to be able to focus on. These other things were able to kind of pop up and come to the surface. And you're an athlete, you've been an athlete your entire life. So there maybe there's something to muscle memory there too, where you you're relaxing into that athletic state of being, which is familiar and maybe even comforting to you. And it's just, I think it's a great thing to recognize about yourself and to maybe offer our listeners who are attempting to write. I always find it so fascinating how people find the the process that works for them as opposed to trying to fit themselves into a process.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And actually, what you're just saying helped made me think of another connection. I wish I had included this in the book. But one thing my therapist said to me when I was working with her when I was probably like 39, I was like, oh, almost like I was reassuring her. Oh, don't worry, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. I was leaving the session. She was like, Amanda, you will never figure it out. You have to, you have to move through it, right? Like the embodiment part of it. And I think that's why the swimming and the running helped me move through it and process the writing just as the just sitting and talking, right, was helpful with her. But often it was like feeling this what came up in my body during the sessions with her that was the most profound. And it was icky. I hated that part, right? I'd much rather think it through than to actually feel because as an athlete, if I really felt what was feel what I was feeling in my body as I was trying to finish a marathon, I would never finish a marathon, right? So I just learned to turn it off. Yeah. So that was an interesting thing. What you said, I think is really important.
SPEAKER_00The older I get, the more just like unlocking and figuring out of myself, which like like you're a therapist said, you think you know or you think you'll be able to know. And every day something else comes up. And it's just that's what living is, right? Processing continually, reflecting, learning, unlearning. It's just, it's, it's fascinating to me because I think as a young person, you look up and you think, oh, by by 20, I'll have it all figured out. Oh, by 30, I'll have it all figured out. I think when you let that go finally and you're like, oh, maybe I never need to have it all figured out. What does that look like? What does that mean? You know, it's a beautiful place to be. And all of the memoirs that we read and discuss on the show kind of just emphasize that point over and over again for sure.
SPEAKER_01That's why it's hard to finish a memoir because you're always like wreath, you're do you're like still discovering things, you know, the next week you're like, oh, I should have included that. Or, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. Well, you're talking about things coming up, but was there anything that you were hesitant to share? You write about this New York Times article that you wrote.
Lover Shadow And Early Imprints
SPEAKER_01I was 35. I have it actually up on my wall right here. My parents actually framed. Does my virginity have a shelf life? Um love my parents. Um, November 17th, 2013. It was um in the paper. And there were some harsh comments on that article. I mean, I shared a couple of the the stingers in there, especially the one that was like, um, you're selfish. There was an email. You know, it wasn't, I only read a couple of the comments and then I stopped, but I got emails because the editor had put my email on there. I reached out to the editor and I was like, oh, please take that off. Because I was getting emails like crazy, and I was like, ugh. Most of them weren't great either. And the editor's like, oh, well, most most writers want their name on there. And I don't, I don't think I was really ready for what was coming from this. So I was like, I wanted to shout it from the rooftops up in the New York Times, you know, for an essay that friends had encouraged me to like send to a just the strictly Christian Christian magazine. And I was like, no, this article is gonna resonate with a bigger population. And then I also wanted to hide under a rock because of the comments. And I really hadn't talked about being a late-in-life virgin on social media or something like that before. Plenty of friends knew, and anybody I had dated, you know, probably more than three dates knew.
SPEAKER_00As someone who had read your book by this point, I wanted to just go in and be like, How dare you, people? When you write an opinion piece and post it online, that's part of the deal. I'm sure that you understand. Putting your memoir out there, it's all part of the deal. Still, I feel like we can be kinder to one another, and the whole point is to maybe read about someone's experience and then you don't have to comment on it, but okay, fine, people do. Was there anything that you were hesitant to share in your memoir after that experience?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I didn't go in depth. I I talk a little bit about how there were situations where in hookups where I had to push men off or yell at them. I don't know if you remember that, like a very specific place where I was like, it's not like I hadn't been in that situation. I was lucky I was not raped. And I think I said that in there. I put myself in situations that I should never have done. And so I didn't go into detail about a couple of those incidents that I think impacted me later because no one has nobody wants to have to push somebody off of them and yell at them and say no, right?
SPEAKER_00Right. Expectations are dangerous. And at any point, and this is a big thing that I want society to come to terms with for my children, really specifically my daughter, I'm sure you do too. At any point, no means no, and that has to just be the end of it. Okay, you said I put myself in some really bad, dangerous, you say, situations, but really like no situation should ever be dangerous or bad. Because at any point, Amanda, you should your authority of saying no or it going too far, like that should have been that's enough. Right. All I know is I can teach that to my son, but will that keep my daughter from experiencing it? No. And I've definitely been in situations where they haven't felt as dangerous per se, but I've definitely felt guilted into maybe going a little bit further or doing something that I wasn't comfortable doing because I thought, well, I guess I made it this far. Or maybe I I let him on. And what does that say about me? It's little parts of your memoir like that where yes, it's about limerence, but it's so much more. And it gives us all these moments to pause on and reflect and say, oh my gosh, I I experienced, I know exactly what she's talking about. And oh, what can we do to change that?
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, and that's exactly what I hope. People will see a glimmer of themselves in some of these situations and reflect and yeah, on what what can be done differently in the future.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it's bullshit. Like, I'm sorry, it's just straight up bullshit, you know? I know, I know, yeah. At any point, anyone should feel comfortable saying no. I thought I was okay with this, but it turns out I'm not. Okay. Yeah, I think. See you later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not not even having to say no, but more of the consent language now is around asking for a yes. Like if you don't get a yes, you're not waiting for a no. You have to get a yes first. And that's not easy, I think, for individuals to ask in the heat of the moment. It's just not sexy, right? Like, yeah, they there's this idea that it should just magic things should just magically happen and it shouldn't be discussed.
SPEAKER_00Right. It goes beyond language, yeah. And it's like, well, maybe it doesn't actually. No, that's a really good point. You're right. Okay. We define limerence at the top, but now take me through you learning this term. And I guess it happened as you were writing your book, like you said, which is fascinating to me because it ended up being such this perfect overarching thing.
SPEAKER_01Right. It was my therapist that brought it up to me. She was who helped me come up with the title of the book. I mean, without saying this should be your title of the book, it was during a set in a therapy session. She was like, Amanda, longing is your lover. And I was, I was like, Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00Like, that I love the way you write about it too. It's so great.
Fathers, Affection, And Patterns
SPEAKER_01I was like, Oh my gosh, that's true. That's so true. And then, and then she brought up the limerence and and she was new to this idea too. I mean, it's really not well known among therapists and psychologists. And some people just poo-poo it as like, oh, it's just a result of having OCD, or it's just an intense crush, or it's just, you know, a result of XYZ. And maybe, maybe it is, maybe it's not. I mean, my therapist was able to help me, um, I feel like, work through it even, she was helping me work through it even before she understood what the term limerance was. So, but she was the one that introduced it to me. And when I went down the rabbit hole exploring what it was, I was like, yes, this explains much of my dating life. Even like when I was, you know, I was having crushes ever since I was little. That's why I went down that rabbit hole of looking at the juvenile passionate love scale or something like that, I think is what it was called. Like where they studied what kind of kids tended to have be more passionate about love. Yeah. I just think, yeah, people are just wired differently from the start. So that you got the brain piece, you've got stuff that goes on during childhood, conditioning, yeah, and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_00Seems like there was a relief in there, which I think for any of us struggling with anything, even if it's like a physical thing, mental, being able to name something and define it helps. And I think that's the beauty of vocabulary.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And uh the other thing about limerence that I've learned and talking to people that some people have, like myself, had more like serial limerant experiences, like one after the other. It kind of became an organizing structure in my life, you know? And then, like, okay, that guy, the sophomore year was this crush, junior year was this crush, whatever, you know. And then other people just limerence just strikes them out of the blue. Like Tom Bellamy, the neuroscientist I spoke to that he brought up earlier, he talks about how he was, you know, happily married and all of a sudden had this intense infatuation or crush for his co-worker, and he had to work through it. And his wife helped him work through it and stayed with him. So it can strike out of the blue. Yeah. I think there's a lot that's still really left to be discovered about it. It'd be it'd be so cool to like do some more like MRI studies and stuff like that. But that takes, you know, money.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, funding, yeah. And to your point earlier, I think we are living in a world where attention spans are getting shorter and shorter with screen time and chat GPT, all this stuff. And and to the point of like the chat GPT idealized, easy version of someone too, right? It just seems like something that's gonna pop up more and more for people. So if we are able to label it as something and then have ways to work through it, like you did with your therapist, like Tom was able to do, that's just gonna help us all have happier, healthier relationships with ourselves and with people that we love and that love us, which is really the whole point, too, I think.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And find like that, find those sources of dopamine elsewhere besides that hit of ruminating or fantasizing about someone you have no idea if they like you or not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right, right. You write this I got more of an emotional high from the loss than from the love. In some ways, I was addicted to grief, and that would never help me reach my goal of a loving, committed relationship. So, why do you think you were addicted to grief?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I mean, in the book, I weave in some science because I all I too was like, why do I keep doing this to myself? There are so many, there are great songs. Like there's that song by Gautier when he says you can be addicted to a certain kind of sadness. Do you know what I'm talking about? That song somebody that I used to know. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, and so um, and I was like, why why does this keep happening? And something I think I brought in later in the book was my therapist being like, you would rather feel pain than than just feel numb to something, right? I would rather feel I just wanted to feel, I I wanted to feel something. And so even if it was deep sadness, there was some weird masochistic satisfaction in that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Process, Structure, And Anchormen
SPEAKER_01Sometimes I found myself chasing after these people that were I pretty I was pretty certain they were gonna reject me or not show any interest. So I don't really understand why I was doing this. I mean, I'm sure Freudian's psychoanalysts could probably figure it out. The grief psychologist that I referenced in there, Mary Frances O'Connor, she has this interesting study they did, I think it was with relatives or family members of people who lost individuals to breast cancer. And they were doing these MRI studies of individuals that demonstrated complicated grief, which is this extended longer period of grief. Some people believe in complicated grief, some people don't. And then the people that seemed to get over it faster or whatever, move through grief in a normal way. And they found that these people that were dealing with complicated grief kept re, if I remember it correctly, it was something like they kept revisiting these memories of loved ones that had passed. And there was something addictive about revisiting those memories that brought something up for them. That was the interesting piece, the connection between memory and grief and why we keep doing that to ourselves. And perhaps it's just how some people are wired differently.
SPEAKER_00What I found so interesting about this particular passage and what you're saying is that maybe sometimes you don't actually have to get down to the nitty-gritty of the why in order to change your cognitive behavior or in order to rewire your brain. Sometimes I think you do, but sometimes, like you said, it can just be wiring. It can just be the way that that we inherently are, but it doesn't mean that that's the way that we inherently stay.
SPEAKER_01That's well said. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think sometimes people can feel very discouraged to do work on themselves because it can feel like, oh God, I have a lot of layers to peel back, or like there's a lot of work that needs to be do. I need to figure out why I am the way that I am. And it's like, yes, I think that that's true to a certain extent. I think that's why professionals exist out there, like therapists who can help us do that in a safe and healthy way. But I think we can also still work on changing our habits and our behaviors without maybe getting down to the nitty-gritty of the big capital WY. And I think you demonstrate that in your memoir.
SPEAKER_01I mean, there's work, there's still more work I could do. I was uh another therapist who did like, you should journal more about your relationship with your father. And I'm like, yeah, maybe that's the next book.
SPEAKER_00I try to remind myself that when you open Pandora's box and all the crap comes out, what's left is hope. But sometimes it's still you're like, I don't want to open Pandora's box right now. I got too much other shit to handle. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01For sure.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so let's talk about your adolescence. Speaking of your parents, what did you learn about love and healthy relationships from your parents?
SPEAKER_01My parents themselves have and and had, like they demonstrated in the past for me, a healthy relationship in terms of like more of like a growth mindset. Like things aren't perfect, we'll talk it out. I mean, I saw them fight, which I think actually was healthy. It wasn't like like throwing plates at the wall or something like that. You know, they had their normal arguments, but I feel like they always came back together. And they were they're kind of like each other's best friend. I mean, they were good, really good, I think, at supporting each other when the other was really down and very perceptive of each other. So in that way, I, you know, everybody I think probably looked at me and be like, why can't you figure it out? Why can't you like get into a healthy relationship? Look, you pick got healthy, healthy, happy parents, you know. You know, it's more complicated than that. And you know, I like I talk about in the book, your dating patterns aren't just based on your parents and your relationship with your father, right? There's so many layers to it. But generally, they demonstrated a pretty great relationship for me. And they were really supportive, encouraging. My mom was the person who, like, after host homecoming or prom, she stayed up late, you know, oh, I want to hear all about it, you know. And she, I would tell her all the details more than she ever wanted to know. Um eventually she even told me, I think in like my late 30s or 40s, when I was still like thinking about sex. And she was like, Amanda, I don't even want to know when you have sex. I remember telling me that on the phone. I was like, oh, really? I know that might sound crazy to people on this podcast, but I just shared everything with my mom. And there I had a really hard time making up my mind because I was a I had this big fear of making a mistake. So that's a big thing throughout the book, too, is talking about that perfectionism and you know, keep looking, keep looking, and I'll find the one.
SPEAKER_00Right. You were kind of convinced that there was this one perfect person out there for you. And I understood that so much. I'm a child of divorce. So it's really it's interesting to me how everybody was like, Amanda, your parents were so happy and healthy. Why couldn't you get it together? But as you were speaking, I was like, Oh, yes, she learned that any relationship can be fixed with the right kind of communication too. So there's also that element of this thing may not feel like the right thing, but maybe that's because I'm not doing my right part and they're not doing their right, right? It's just, it just shows how confusing it all is. And like you said, there is no exact checklist. This leads to limerence. But in your book, you do write that recent researchers of limerence note how childhood post-traumatic stress disorder or micro traumas plant the seeds for limerence later in life. So do you feel like now looking back, you can be like, oh, okay, maybe that was the first seed? Or do you feel like there were these cumulative things that led you to having limerence? Or do you just feel like that's just who Amanda was kind of always gonna be until she understood what this term was?
Movement, Somatics, And Breakthroughs
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think there's not one seed that, like, you if this happens to you, you're for sure gonna have limerence, right? I think there are like all these seeds that can get planted, whether they get watered or not, and how much you know they get watered impacts what kind of limerence you might have, if you're gonna experience it or not. I talk about this in the very first chapter, I think, um, about my birth story, um, and how my mom had um a stroke and I went home with my grandmother, um, my dad's mom, which is important differentiation because I think she wasn't a real touchy-feely person, and then my father wasn't a very touchy-feely person. So, you know, I was home with this with my grandma for three weeks. And she, you know, she, I'm sure she did the best she could. And I don't know. I don't know what the experience was like, but I knew I was separated for like three weeks from my mom. And when my mom was able to engage and, you know, take care of me, um, she was feeling pretty lousy too. So I think you know, you never know how that impacts and what you're longing for in the future. And for me, I think that did plant a seed for that kind of romantic longing or seeking something outside myself to fix it. And and also the disorganized attachment, where if somebody did get close to me, if somebody did show interest in me, I was like, I'm out. You're boring, I'm out of here. Because that also felt very unfamiliar. And then if somebody was, you know, really kind of distant and withdrawing, I was like, oh, that's interesting. Okay, I think I'll I'll chase after that.
SPEAKER_00Amanda, I was the same damn way in high school. I in all seriousness, my friends would be like, you like someone until they like you back. It's the most bizarre thing. And I think it's because I liked the idea of love in a relationship, but having come from a divorced parent, I actually like once it got real, I was like, oh, I'm out because then it it could lead to more pain. When I was chasing someone and they weren't they weren't reciprocating, that was a pain that felt like it was in my control because I was choosing to pursue them. Right. But then if I were to actually engage in a relationship with them and one day they broke my heart, that was a pain that felt like something that was too big for me to handle. And I can't even tell you. I started dating my um husband in college and we had we had our moments of growing apart and growing together. But I can't even tell you like why that flipped for me or how. I I just knew exactly what you were talking about.
SPEAKER_01How old were you when your parents were divorced?
SPEAKER_0011, 12.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So right, right before middle school or right in it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And to your point that you bring up in the memoir, society and movies, I feel like have played a big role in this. We talked a little bit about Chat GPT or like the idealized version of ourselves on social media and and on dating apps. But this idea of like soulmates, you write, it would take me years to realize that any idealized relationship is an impossible relationship.
SPEAKER_01We all love a good rom-com, we do, but it's so fun to get caught up in those and also to be like, that's what I want. You know, like I want this combination of when Harry met Sally and Charlie and Maverick in Top Gun. Like I love the fight, like, you know, and the tension and everything. But I didn't really have that. I didn't have that with my husband. And uh there was yeah, there was enough um of of uncertainty to kind of keep it interesting. But he was so available. I was finally, by the time I met him, I was like, oh, this is this is good. This is such a relief. I'm tired of doing it the other way. But if I had met him much earlier, I would have been like, this guy's boring, way too available.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We read about you sort of talking yourself out of that bad habit of being like, okay, he's not boring because he's communicating. Movies are dramatized versions. There's a formula, fights have to happen in order for the big makeup. And but we're taught as young people that that makes the relationship exciting and worth it. And that's real love if they prove it and they stand outside of your house with the boombox over their head.
SPEAKER_01That's did you have one? What was yours? I'm curious.
SPEAKER_00Love actually.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00I wanted to be asterom so badly with those damn signs. Never was. Looking back now, I'm like, that is such a messed up relationship. This man is telling his best friend's new wife that he will always love her. What is happening?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. I mean, that guy, that's who I reference as having limerence in the book for sure. Yes.
SPEAKER_00We should we need a love actually too, where they kind of like fix all of those terrible things that they did to us.
SPEAKER_01I think Sex and the City tried to do that with their redo and by like fixing all the faux pas they'd made in the 90s. And uh, I don't know, I'm not sure that it flew.
SPEAKER_00So I don't think it went well either. Yeah. Let's get into this purity culture that really seems to play a big part in your adolescence and your value. Were your parents, did they sit you down and did they say, like, Amanda, you need to wait until marriage to have sex?
SPEAKER_01No, I think that was something I know my mom and dad did. Okay. Mom was open about that. And uh, she always bragged about how she was can called the ice queen in high school too. She reminded me of that actually over Christmas break again when I was like searching on Facebook for one of her exes. But, anyways, my parents, no. I mean, this this the purity culture thing, I was it was in the 90s. I was going to church, I was in youth group, I had crushes on guys in youth group. It was fun to go. And, you know, of course I was gonna do this purity ring ceremony because what who wouldn't do it? You'd be cast out if you said, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah. You know, besides, it was like part of being a group thing and everything. And so it was more of that. Plus, my grandma I talk a lot about in the book, and I'm sure she was like, You, I'm sure she told me you don't have sex until you're married. Oh, but I when I did ask her, I do remember asking her, I you know, you can ask your grandma questions that your mom can't you can't ask your mom sometimes. And I remember asking my grandma, Did you wait till you were married to have sex? And she she was kind of quiet. And this was like in her late 90s, and she's like, We were engaged. That's what she told me. Which of course I told my mom, and she was like, Oh my gosh, she would have never told me that. Anyways, no, my parents didn't pressure me. And it was just a thing, yeah, it was a thing that I chose to do. It was a goal. I was goal-oriented as an athlete. So I was like, Okay, yeah, I can set that goal. I'm not, I'm not having any. Been kissed yet? I'm not sure I might have been at that point, but I was a late bloomer anyway, so it was not a big deal.
SPEAKER_00And you talk about waiting until marriage to have sex, because then that felt to you like that would be real love and that would be worth it, right? Would you say that it was yes, this pure goal of like being the good girl that like God wants us to be, the good little people, but also sort of a protective mechanism because being intimate with someone is not easy. And we will get into how like you were very intimate with other people, but you never crossed that line, except that your lesbian friend said technically you did cross, you like you would have crossed the line if you were lesbian, which I just love how honest you were about that whole section. You were like, listen, did I have the P and the V intercourse? No, I didn't. But if I were lesbian, I would not be technically. And can I just say, I really hate the phrase like losing virginity, losing my virginity. Like you're like you're losing a part of yourself, this like pure holy part of yourself. I wish I don't know how to get that out of the lexicon. I I think it's kind of stuck.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm sure I probably gaining in oh, you have to.
Virality, Backlash, And Boundaries
SPEAKER_01You have to so hard to say, you know, like I spelled it out for people. I did not have sexual intercourse, you know. I so, but um, yeah, there are so many terms that are so stuck in our lexicon that it's it is hard and it is it is complicated. So because it it was something that mattered to me, like this one line, you know, like I was like, I just wanted to feel like something was still sacred, the safety piece of it. Yes, it felt like okay, at first I'll wait for marriage because then you feel like it's safe. It you've done what you're supposed to do and you've waited, and then it's also safe because you're less likely to be left, right? And I didn't probably think about being a child, being an infant and being left, right? Maybe it was a deep, deep, deeply ingrained in me. I don't want to be left, so I'm gonna wait. But in order to play the game and dating in college, you know, you had to, you know, get involved intimately. And so I did that, but I also felt like I wanted to have hold something aside, and that mattered to me. And so that's that's what I did.
SPEAKER_00But you were comfortable getting as intimate with these partners as you wanted to, like at a certain point, did you feel guilty or not really?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. I think I had that scene in there when I was in France and had that hookup with the soccer player that was really hot, and and that was alcohol. I definitely drank a lot of alcohol. Most of my early intimate encounters, besides just like kisses, early on kisses, I had the help of alcohol to kind of smooth out my my fear. I was comfortable with my body. I was very comfortable with my body. But being intimate and like learning how to do all these things, I was not as as confident in. And so, yeah, with that one incident, that scene where I go back and I tell Mona Mee, who is my best friend in college that I ended up dating senior year, I remember and he was like, Oh gosh, please don't tell me anymore. But I ended up calling my mom and telling her like way more information because yeah, I felt like I was purging these details. I didn't have a confessional to go to. If I was Catholic, I would have done that. But call my mom and tell her everything. But yeah, I definitely felt icky and whatever experiencing this. But I felt like it was I was kind of learning to power power through it. I don't know, it was it wasn't great.
SPEAKER_00No, it's it's it's very complicated, and you do a really good job of explaining all of the different ways that you try to navigate finding a healthy love and a healthy relationship, and the ways that you were kind of like working against yourself a little bit sometimes, and the ways that society had conditioned you to work against yourself too. And I think there are people who will experience limerence who will also be having sex with people, like that was just your this added thing that was very specific to you and your experience.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But how do you think that that heightened your limerence?
SPEAKER_01And again, for readers and listeners, like my story that I was kind of trying to unpack even before I met Dave, because I had this book proposal out two to three years before I met him, was more about the late in life virginity piece. And it wasn't until a little later that I actually came across the term limerence. So to answer your question about how like limerence, maybe the connection between limerence and celibacy or abstinence or late in life virginity, whatever word we want to throw out there, was that I think limerence for me, even though it was something I was doing from an early age, like crushing on these people and putting them on a pedestal, what became this like safe, it was a it was a like a mechanism to stay, to feel safe. It was like a but it was also self-sabotaging, right? Because I was never gonna put myself in a situation with somebody who I would actually be in a real relationship with.
SPEAKER_00You were intentionally setting yourself up to fail.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And then therefore I would never get into a situation where I would say, Yes, I'm ready to have sex with you. Because I wouldn't, I wouldn't be with people who wanted to love and commit to me, because the people I was chasing were not people who would love and commit to me, except for the one person that we talk, I talk about in the book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And he says no. So let's talk about that moment. Okay. He was one of your your anchormen. Yeah. Um, he was in the military and we had dated long distance about a year from the day we actually met in person until I offered it up. Actually, it was probably like 10 months. And he was gonna be sent overseas to I think back to to Kuwait. He'd been in Iraq. He was gonna be deployed maybe in a week or two after I was visiting him. And he said no when I said I I'm ready to have sex or whatever I said to him. Yeah. And I just it kind of felt like really embarrassing. I think I might have described it as like showing up to a party naked when everybody's clothed, or when you feel like you're like, okay, I'm ready. And you have psyched yourself up. Yes. Yeah. I'd gone through so many, gone on so many runs with friends and like been like, okay, this makes sense, right? This is right. This is okay now. This guy's safe. And he said the no. And I feel like I just kind of wrapped that back up again. My my my yes and my offer. And it was it was it felt like embarrassing, kind of too, you know, to have thought, okay, I'm gonna go there. And then he says no. And to his credit, that was nice of him, actually, to have said that, you know, he could have been like, sure. And then but I think in his head, he was like, I don't I know this matters to her, and I don't know what's gonna happen to our relationship in six months.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. Do you feel like that sent you even further into this? Would it would it be a limerick limeric state?
SPEAKER_01Limerant. Limerant state, I think. Um I'm you know, I think that what uh what it sent me into was like this dating spree chasing after people who were very much unlike him. So I had tried it with the nice guy, right? A guy who was affectionate and giving and things why, you know, it didn't work out because of deployments. It might have worked out if we had been living in the same city and so forth. It may not have, because then we would have really known what we were like. So, but after that, I really was even more interested in guys who weren't gonna commit to me because then I would never get back to that place again where I would say yes.
Consent, Yes Culture, And Safety
SPEAKER_00Yeah, kind of like the walls went up even more reinforced. For sure. And so you do you talk a lot about the types of boys, men relationships you pursued. You call them the Chads, Inkermen, Peter Pans. What was it like going back and revisiting these relationships? Do you feel like you finally found closure with them? Did you need closure? It's a great question.
SPEAKER_01I don't really feel like I needed closure because I wouldn't have been able to get into the relationship I feel like I am with my husband if I had still needed closure these past two years while I was writing them. Actually, what it did for me, I think, as I was writing them was it did help me have a little more compassion for for these individuals and be like, oh my gosh, like of course they would have like run a marathon away from you because you were having so much anxiety and reaching out in ways that probably were not attractive. And so, in some ways, I feel like I did have some more compassion for these guys that I felt like had really screwed me over. Did also help me see patterns where I was like, oh, that guy was like that guy, it was like that guy, was like that guy. And I kept following the same pattern. So in that way, it helped me see patterns that I don't think I had seen before because I did a deep dive looking at all of these sorts of relationships. Well, situationships, shall we say?
SPEAKER_00Your memo is a good mixture of accountability and realization. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, definitely. Let's talk about your husband, Dave. Amanda, for real, your childhood imaginary friend was called Dave.
SPEAKER_01My imaginary husband was called Dave. Dave the Dave the watchmaker, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was that was crazy. I think if I had an imaginary husband growing up and I had named him something, any boy that I had met ever in my life would have been like, oh my god, yes, it's my husband.
SPEAKER_01There was one other guy named Dave, I call him Dave the chemist now, who I thought this could be it. And I think I was probably around 37, 38. And I remember telling my mom or dad, well, do you remember Dave the Watchmaker? This guy's Dave, you know? And he was, he wasn't in a great position, I think, to be. He told me he wasn't in a great position to be in a relationship. That that was the only other Dave I dated that I think I was like, oh, this could be this could be it because of Dave. And then I met, you know, my now Dave, and it it seemed more fitting.
SPEAKER_00Wow. That's just such a beautiful, crazy coincidence. Because you just pulled Dave out of your head, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know where I got that from. That's weird. I love it. I mean, it is a kind of a common name, so I had a pretty good shot of finding, you know, a husband named Dave.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you were you diagnosed with ADHD at what point in your life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, when I was 36, my parents had said for a long time that I had ADHD. My brother has ADHD and is like like hype hyperactivity, impulsive. And I was always like, okay, I'm I'm like the straight A student. I now that I look back, I'm like, oh yeah, I fit the late-in-life female diagnose version that a lot of people talk about now. But it was when I was 36, my parents were like, We really think you should check it out. We think it's impacting your relationships. And so before, they'd always said, you know, it might be impacting your academics, a career, or whatever. And I was like, whatever, I'm fine. I can make but I'm like, relationships? Okay, now you have my attention because things are not working out. I'm 36. I want to get this working. So I went, went to my primary care physician, filled out like a check the box sort of thing. It wasn't complicated. I probably could do a more thorough evaluation. But it's pretty clear now that I look back that I have ADHD.
SPEAKER_00You feel like it was one of the keys in unlocking limerence?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it helped me understand why, uh, from what I understand with ADHD, there's often, and this still has to be pretty researched. I also read research that says we still need more research, but that with people with ADHD, there's like a lack of dopamine, and or the dopamine, there's an the uptake in the brain is faster. It gets absorbed faster. The theory is that then people with ADHD are more likely to seek out those sources of dopamine, you know, the things that they're really interested in, they get really hyper-focused on. And the things that they find bored, you know, they get more, maybe more bored more easily. So then they're like searching, searching, searching. And so, yeah, when I look back at it from like a romantic obsession standpoint, it makes sense that I would hyperfixate on certain crushes. And then if somebody did show interest in me, I would be like, I'm out, on to the next, you know, somebody to hyperfixate on. And the important thing to understand with dopamine that I learned was that it's it's not when you get what you want, but when you anticipate getting it that you get that dopamine hill. So thinking about that person, anticipating seeing them, anticipating them liking your post or whatever it might be is when you get that kind of that hit.
Naming Limerence And Relief
SPEAKER_00That's fascinating. I did not know that. And all of this is just you gaining the vocabulary to help you understand yourself a little bit better, it seems like. Right, right, right. Yeah. So how do you think someone can recognize if they're experiencing limerence versus it maybe someone who's just pursuing bad relationships because they don't have self-love or value themselves?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think the difference is, and they can kind of like there definitely is overlap in what you do both of those that you just described. Because I think you if you do have more, if you do have self-love, then you are less likely to pursue these ideas of someone who is leaving you breadcrumbs or that may not even know you exist. The thing is, I have pretty good self-I think people would look at me and be like, oh, she's got great self-esteem and confidence and everything. But there was something about not having enough self-love and being self-critical that did lead me down that path, I think, of limerence. So I think the in with limerence, um, there's more of that hyperfixation, ruminating about someone. You're thinking about the person you want them to be or you think they are, and not the act not recognizing the actual behavior that they have demonstrated for you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so then what advice would you give to anyone listening to this episode or reading your memoir who is like, whoa, this is me, but now how do I stop it or how do I change it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like in a in a nutshell, some of a few of the things, and I tried to talk about this in my book to like give people things that I did that seem to work for me. One of the pieces that I sometimes I forget to mention, I was just on a podcast the other day and the psychologist brought this up. I'm like, yes, I definitely remember this, that self-compassion. Because I think when you get to the place where you're like, oh my gosh, that's me, or I've been doing this, it's easy to beat yourself up and be like, I wasted all of those years, right? Or I didn't, what if I had engaged with that guy who was really nice and really available, and now he's happily married. I see him on Facebook with his three kids, and oh my gosh, I totally screwed up, right? Because I was chasing after Don Juan over here. So come self-compassion, I think, is really important and forgiving yourself. Um, and and realizing that there are a lot of layers to this. What else for me? So it was kind of a combination of like some of the therapy I did was like that embodiment, like recognizing how things felt in my body and paying attention to those things. That's a complicated thing. So I'm not gonna get into that too much, but like somatic therapy. Also, the journaling helped realizing that somebody wasn't the ideal person. I didn't mess up with somebody and that I could be the right person. I could be the right amount for the right person, right? Because often I feel like I was told I'm I'm too much. And the one mantra that I often bring up for folks that I had in my journal was I'm ready for and worthy of a deeply loving and intimate relationship. And that was something that my therapist suggested I start writing in a journal. And I started doing that about a year before I met Dave. And sometimes I would even say it out loud. And, you know, that sort of thing is what I was taught to do as an athlete. Write down your entire race narration. And sometimes I would record myself and actually listen to it before I'd run the 800 meters or something like that. So why not do it with relationships, right? This was an 800 meter race I had never run, but I wanted to run it deeply, right? This this relationship I wanted to have. So, but I didn't really believe I was worthy of it. And so I started writing that. And I think that really helped actually. A few other things, like letting go of these guys that I had felt had dissed me and realizing that they didn't owe me anything, um, and recognizing my own behavior and patterns. Yeah, so that there were those are a couple of the things self-compassion, journaling, somatic therapy, embodiment. Those were key pieces, I think.
SPEAKER_00All really, really helpful stuff. I love me a good mantra. I really do. And and I I believe in the science of it for sure. The reprogramming of your brain. I loved your quote from The Little Prince and the two different ways that it can be interpreted. You know, I read something recently, and I don't remember if it was in a book or wherever I read it, but I read something that basically said life is not about the choices you make, it's about making the most of the choices that you make. It really unlocked something for me because I can be like you're I'm a perfectionist. I feel like maybe there's a right or a wrong way to do a lot of things in life. And once you give yourself permission to just make a choice and then just make the best of that choice, whatever it is, there's such a freedom and a relief in that, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sometimes I find myself with my daughter being like, oh, good choice, you know, because I feel like she needs that. Yeah. Even if she's picking out a toy at Target or something like that. And now I'm like, hmm, maybe I shouldn't even say that because I don't want her to feel like there's a good and a bad way. But I think, yeah, moving on with our choices is really important. And trusting ourselves, I think that's the thing. Like trusting ourselves in the moment, we did the best that we could with the information we had and who we were at in that moment. Yeah. Um, and I think that's that's really important. My friend, I mentioned one of my best friends from like I've known her since like sixth grade. She gave me a like a cuff bracelet, probably when I was in my 30s, that said, trust yourself. And it's the things like that, right? That friends notice about you that you don't sometimes see in yourself, that it's still something. Even my editors were like, No, you need to trust that your story is enough. Yeah. And I think that was really important.
Dopamine, Grief, And Rumination
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And I like I said, I loved your quote from the little prince. It was that act of compassion for yourself. I did I do things that maybe looking back, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have done that or whatever. Who cares? Because I did it and it led me here. And if I had done anything differently, maybe my life would look differently now. And I don't really want my life to look differently. So I don't know. I just I love that you extended that to yourself. And I hope that your the readers of your memoir and and our listeners today extend that self-compassion to themselves because we cannot go back. All we can do is move forward and learn and find the beauty and the happiness and the joy in the present moment because that's all we're guaranteed. And that's it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, thank you. I hope, I hope that they they walk away with that too.
SPEAKER_00Okay, Amanda, before I let you go, you also have a podcast. Tell me a little bit about it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's called the Longing Lab, like a laboratory. I talk with different experts or people who've had experiences with longing from different angles. So it could be romantic longing, it could be longing for someone who's passed away. It could be you've lost your house in a fire kind of longing and longing for that sense of home again. It's it's a whole variety of things. My friend Eric Olson lost his daughter in an intersection traffic accident, and that one's a really powerful one. I have one coming up that I interviewed a guy on hospitality and longing. His restaurant got named Best Restaurant in the US. And so I I interviewed him. That was kind of a different angle on longing.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's cool. We'll link some of these on our stories when we release this episode so people can find you really easy. They can just click on it. I have to just know more about the peace boat that you lived on.
SPEAKER_01What? Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah, the peace boat is this really cool nonprofit organization in Japan. And it you it originally started going back and forth between Japan and South Korea to basically heal the wounds from World War II. And then they started doing these around the world trips. And my one of my best friends, Yumi, was working on the on the ship as a translator, and she was like, You should come. You should come be a teacher. And so So that's what I did for uh three months. Okay. In like 2006, a volunteer teacher. And I was like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna teach. I'm not gonna make any money. And it was one of the best decisions of my life because three months around the world, you know, it was a free trip basically. And I'm still I'm still things still pop up that I'm digesting related to that trip.
SPEAKER_00I smell a memoir. I'm just saying. But it's still and it still exists too. So it's pretty cool. Cool. Okay, cool. We'll link that in case anybody's interested in learning more about that. All right, last question before I let you go. Amanda, how do you stay hopeful today?
SPEAKER_01Oh probably looking at my daughter. There's definitely a sense of hope in her that I feel has gotten stamped out of me in some ways. It's really refreshing to watch her and see her excitement for things. And that helps kind of rekindle that for myself.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. Where and how can we find out more information about you?
SPEAKER_01Yep. Instagram is Amanda J McCracken. I'm on TikTok at The Longing Lab, which is also the name of my podcast. Those are the best places to find me.
SPEAKER_00And we will include a link to purchase Amanda's memoir for yourself. Like I said, this is your pub day. So it is now available for everyone to read and learn from and experience for themselves. Amanda, thank you so much for our wonderful conversation. So many great little nuggets of wisdom. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I really appreciate your thoughtful questions and the fact that you really read my book. That was that was very obvious. And I I love that you brought up like that. Hopefully, it's both accountability and realization. I think those two things are important in in memoirs, and I hope that people feel that way in reading mine too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think they will. I I think they will.
SPEAKER_01I always love podcasts where I'm like, oh my gosh, I never thought of that before. So that's a sign of a great, great interview. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, thank you. And thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed our episode today, please rate and review the show wherever you listened and share it with a friend, maybe that person in your life who's still looking for that healthy relationship. We'll be back next week with another author interview. Deborah Cohan joins the show to discuss her memoir. Welcome to Wherever We Are. Her story of taking care of her father in the later stages of his life, a man who is simultaneously loud, gentle, loving, and cruel. We'll reflect on the questions like How do you go about caregiving for an ill and elderly parent with a lifelong history of abuse and control, intertwined with expressions of intense love and adoration? How do you reconcile the resulting ambivalence, fear, and anger? Can't wait to bring this episode your way. Until then, take care. Be well. All right, bye guys.
