#3 Louise Rosager -- Torchbearer of the Soul, Why Explore Dreams?, Discovering your Personal Myth, Art vs. Propaganda, Nightmares and Bad Trips, Mastering the Element of Surprise, Reaching the Third Option

I talk with Creative Coach and Professional Dream Tender, Louise Rosager. Louise is a good friend and collaborator in the West Los Angeles area who works with writers and other creative professionals to literally help bring their dreams to life. You can find more about her on her website louiserosager.com.

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Transcript

Louise: 0:00

What I find in Hollywood is that artists very rarely take that on, that role of, torchbearer, for, for the soul. art has always had that, that mission, right, to really help, to help the world individually, to help. point the way to the future.

0:25

I'm Stephen Bradshaw, and this is Snowball Psychology.

Steven: 0:32

louisa. So good to have you on this podcast.

Louise: 0:36

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Steve. It's always so nice to talk to you. Um,

Steven: 0:42

you're a creative coach doing, uh, work that goes deep into the unconscious and uses dreams as a source of inspiration, uh, for clients in professional industries, particularly, uh, the screenwriting and, and film industry. And, uh, we first met eight years ago when I was invited through a friend to a fireside reading of The Tempest. at your house, um, up above Malibu. And, uh, it was, uh, Deep dive into Shakespearean lore. And you provided this rich introduction about how this was relevant at the time of Shakespeare's life, what this meant to him personally, and it was just such a thoughtful presentation that it left an indelible mark on my mind. And, yeah, I so appreciated it. And you draw from a rich background in Shakespeare. You are a thinker. Shakespearean actor in both New York and Copenhagen. You have this background in ballet and, um, movement, and, uh, a practicing Buddhist, you were executive producer and came up with the concept of the show Will, which, uh, was a, a dramatized account of, of the young Will Shakespeare. You have this rich creative background that you bring into, your healing work essentially and creative work. And I'm so happy to have you on because those are all things that are very alive to me. And I'm particularly interested in starting at this moment where your snowball began the first snowflake, the first crystallization. And, you know, since you work with dreams, I'm wondering if there was an important dream or an important A moment when you got onto your path and in the current iteration, an important starting point for what was to come to get you here.

Louise: 2:38

Hmm. Yeah, such a great question. Um, and I'll preface by saying dreams have always really been a lodestar for me. So most of the life choices that I've made have had some kind of component of dream to them. The dreams would come, you know, I pay attention to my dreams. So they come in pretty strong and they come in pretty clear, especially after years and years of working, um, working with them. Um, So, so they will always correct me if there's something, if I'm not on the right path, or if there's something I'm missing, if there's something That, that I could incorporate that would really help set me back on the path of my

Steven: 3:24

So if you misspeak today, you'll be getting a dream tonight.

Louise: 3:27

oh yeah, I'm getting some kind of dream, okay, what was that? But, I mean, they're not, they're not clear like that. They're not, um, but we are in constant conversation, me and, and the dreams. And so they will, they will tell me. In their way, if there is something else I could be doing, if there's something else that I haven't really thought of. And so throughout my, my life, since my late teens, really the dreams have been that lodestar and they have, have been a constant companion for me. Um, but in the current iteration, when, when I really started coaching more full time working with creatives, working with people on their dreams, I would say that happened. Around five years ago at this point. And I, I was a new mother, um, very quickly back into my life. My career, uh, was going well. I was writing and I was pitching shows and had a baby, um, kind of realized pretty quickly that if I wanted to spend any time with this new ball of light, that I would probably have to pivot my career, um, away from those long, long, brutal hours of television. That was a hard choice for me. Cause you know, I'd worked very hard to get to, um, to where I was, but the dreams would come and I, I was doing my best to hold both things at the same time for, for several months, but I was becoming more and more unhappy.

Steven: 5:10

Can I ask, were you doing dream work with a dream practitioner at that time? Had you already developed that as a, okay, so you were doing that to support your writing and acting at that time?

Louise: 5:22

Yes, I was. And so at this point, you know, my, my creative process, Was heavily influenced by dreams. It had always been that way since I was an actor. When I became a writer, everything I did had a dream component to it because I found that it really was the best way to get out of your ego consciousness. around what's supposed to happen, what you think should happen, what you think the scene is about, and really get deeply into this, um, layer underneath of that where, where all artists want to live, where the work kind of just does itself

Steven: 6:00

does the ego produce dead fiction? Does it produce flat, uninteresting work?

Louise: 6:07

Not always. I mean I think, uh, I think technique and intellect can get you very far in the creative process. But what you have to have also is that, that river underneath the river, if you will, where, where the unconscious has a space to come up and take over. Because if you just write with your ego mind or you just act with your ego mind, you're only ever going to get the version of your content. That is what you think it should be fine for many mediums. You could probably make a lot of money doing that, but ultimately what we're trying to do as artists. is bring something to the culture that it hasn't yet seen and that our culture isn't yet aware of, right? So we are really trying to bring the unconscious through, um, our work, so that the culture can look at what we're making and go, Oh, okay, there is a different way. There is something I haven't thought of. In order for that to live through the artist, We have to be very open. We have to be very open to the unconscious. We can't just look outside of ourselves and say, Oh, well this is how this type of story is supposed to go. Although we must know that because that's part of mastery, right? We have to train. We have to know how to write for our format. How to act certain characters in a specific way that makes sense. Um, to the ego mind, to our understanding, and to structurally, we have to know what we're doing. And two, we have to bring the new through. That newness comes from the artist as well, right? The artist always points the way forward. And so we have to be open to that something else to come in. And move through our work. What also happens when you work with, uh, um, with the dream realm, with the unconscious, is that a different level of authenticity will come through in your work, simply because you're open to experiences, memories, dreams, reflections, as Jung would say, that perhaps you wouldn't otherwise allow yourself to go to for that character because the ego says it's wrong. Well, Juliet has to be happy in this scene. She's in love. Well, what if I'm not happy? What if that's not what's coming through? What if it's a sorrowful Juliet on that balcony? Well, we can relate to that, right? Most of us can relate to that feeling of, Oh, it's never going to happen. I'm never going to get what I hope for. Equally potent, right? But if we're not open to what is coming through from the unconscious, We may not go there because we have a set idea of what should happen in the, in the scene.

Steven: 9:01

Yeah, I feel in our culture, in the Westerner mindset, we're very good at the egoic side of things, of building things up mechanically, of sharpening the toolkit, and we often are under resourced on that. imaginative aspects, right?

Louise: 9:18

Absolutely. And particularly now where AI is so prominent, um, it can do it for us. You know, ChatGBT can essentially write my next script, if I ask it to. And it'll probably be pretty good, you know? We don't really need actors because we can have the AI version of them, and we can just create, um, content with the image and likeness of the person. We don't need the person themselves, really. But so what happens now, or what I'm hoping, will happen to a larger extent. And what I'm certainly seeing with the people who, um, come and work with me is that, yeah, it's, it's, It's a great thing to work for, to get the money, and to get the recognition from the world, you know, to get the fame, all of those things. But really, what we're looking for now is the process itself, the individuation process, through the artistry that we're creating, which then in turn will also help to individuate the culture. So, um, so yes, we've really kind of, I think, come to that edge of where the ego can take us. It's not given us the satisfaction, the happiness that perhaps we thought it would. And so what do we do now? Well, we go within and we have to find it somewhere else because there's no This world out there is not going to provide it for us. So, yeah.

Steven: 11:03

Yeah. And I, I want to get back to the dream that kicked things off, but since you bring up AI,

Louise: 11:08

Mm

Steven: 11:09

I, I see, I see AI as a, as an extension of further crystallization, like the ego that, uh, is now electronically stored and we're externalizing a lot of our knowledge and then able to access it in this way. And it's, It really calls into question what the role of the human is when so much is able to happen externalized. And for me, the soul, the, that new life that you're referring to is our final resting place.

Louise: 11:44

hmm.

Steven: 11:45

something essential emerging out of us that enlivens the world and that the technique is secondary to that. And I think A. I. Is forcing us more and more to recognize that and, uh, the people that can keep attending to their inspiration will have more and more of a place. I feel in if if they can, um, find a place in the world to channel that inspiration.

Louise: 12:18

Yeah, Steve, I really, I really agree with you. And I think in that regard, AI can be incredibly helpful on that soul journey, right? Not just because it makes sense. Things that were otherwise difficult and time consuming, much easier and much faster. But also because it forces us to really reckon with, who am I? What is it that is uniquely human? What is it that is uniquely me? That the world must need for whatever reason, otherwise we wouldn't be here, you know? And, and I think again, dreams really help crystallize that for us. because it gives us that, that inner, um, metaphor, that inner symbol of, of what it means to be human, what we have to do, where we are going. Dreams always come with some kind of, um, hint, intimation of the future as well, my future, as well as the collective future. So when you really start to work with, with those images and take them seriously, it'll, it'll, um, fine tune and elevate our humanity and our sense of self, so.

Steven: 13:35

Yeah.

Louise: 13:37

Mm

Steven: 13:37

Um, I read

Louise: 13:39

Mm hmm.

Steven: 13:42

guess it was an artist commenting on a I imagery and he said not a single image has stayed with him or left a significant impact on him of all the thousands of images he's seen. And I feel the same that there's a lack of resonance so far in what we see from the digital world. And I think our dream images are so alive and we've talked about, how in our clients when they start to talk about their dreams and they bring their dreams to the surface more, they come alive and there's something very resonant and powerful about those images.

Louise: 14:18

Absolutely. And it really makes you wonder where is it coming from? And where, what, what is this world? Because when people start to engage those images, I'll have new clients that'll come in and they'll say, what if it doesn't work? What if I can't get there? What if the images don't come alive? I've never seen it not happen. Not once. I've never seen it not happen. The images are so present. And all I have to go do is say, um, where, where do you, where do you see the dog? They'll point to it. They know where it is in space around them at this moment, sometimes months after the actual dream happened. So it's, um, and then, yes, as you were saying that it, it animates people and it's because it comes from the self. It comes from the soul. It's all of those things that. Maybe we have an idea that we are. Maybe we don't know yet, but as soon as we start to really work with them, they come alive around us and we come alive to, to all of those images as well. And it's interesting what you're saying with AI, that those images don't resonate with you. And I think part of it is, So my brother is a photographer he has the same reaction as you do. And what he says is that it's because he knows intellectually, that there was no journey to get there. Nobody had to get on a plane. Nobody had to hike up the mountain. Nobody had to, you know, sit there overnight in the cold to get that morning shot. There, there was no suffering, if you will, to get to the finished product. It. And I think that, I hate to say it, but I really think that there, that human condition that we're talking about, suffering is a huge part of it. And the way that we reframe suffering is that we turn it into experience, we turn it into resonance, we turn it into that feeling quality that other people can relate to, which makes them feel more human as well. So particularly now where AI is so prominent, um, it can do it for us. You know, ChatGBT can essentially write my next script, if I ask it to. And it'll probably be pretty good, you know? We don't really need actors because we can have the AI version of them, and we can just create, um, content with the image and likeness of the person. We don't need the person themselves, really. But so what happens now, or what I'm hoping, will happen to a larger extent. And what I'm certainly seeing with the people who, um, come and work with me is that, yeah, it's, it's, It's a great thing to work for, to get the money, and to get the recognition from the world, you know, to get the fame, all of those things. But really, what we're looking for now is the process itself, the individuation process, through the artistry that we're creating, which then in turn will also help to individuate the culture. So, um, so yes, we've really kind of, I think, come to that edge of where the ego can take us. It's not given us the satisfaction, the happiness that perhaps we thought it would. And so what do we do now? Well, we go within and we have to find it somewhere else because there's no This world out there is not going to provide it for us. So, yeah.

Steven: 18:29

Yeah. And I, I want to get back to the dream that kicked things off, but since you bring up AI,

Louise: 18:34

Mm

Steven: 18:35

I, I see, I see AI as a, as an extension of further crystallization, like the ego that, uh, is now electronically stored and we're externalizing a lot of our knowledge and then able to access it in this way. And it's, It really calls into question what the role of the human is when so much is able to happen externalized. And for me, the soul, the, that new life that you're referring to is our final resting place.

Louise: 19:10

hmm.

Steven: 19:10

something essential emerging out of us that enlivens the world and that the technique is secondary to that. And I think A. I. Is forcing us more and more to recognize that and, uh, the people that can keep attending to their inspiration will have more and more of a place. I feel in if if they can, um, find a place in the world to channel that inspiration.

Louise: 19:44

Yeah, Steve, I really, I really agree with you. And I think in that regard, AI can be incredibly helpful on that soul journey, right? Not just because it makes sense. Things that were otherwise difficult and time consuming, much easier and much faster. But also because it forces us to really reckon with, who am I? What is it that is uniquely human? What is it that is uniquely me? That the world must need for whatever reason, otherwise we wouldn't be here, you know? And, and I think again, dreams really help crystallize that for us. because it gives us that, that inner, um, metaphor, that inner symbol of, of what it means to be human, what we have to do, where we are going. Dreams always come with some kind of, um, hint, intimation of the future as well, my future, as well as the collective future. So when you really start to work with, with those images and take them seriously, it'll, it'll, um, fine tune and elevate our humanity and our sense of self, so.

Steven: 21:01

Yeah.

Louise: 21:02

Mm

Steven: 21:03

Um, I read

Louise: 21:05

Mm hmm.

Steven: 21:07

guess it was an artist commenting on a I imagery and he said not a single image has stayed with him or left a significant impact on him of all the thousands of images he's seen. And I feel the same that there's a lack of resonance so far in what we see from the digital world. And I think our dream images are so alive and we've talked about, how in our clients when they start to talk about their dreams and they bring their dreams to the surface more, they come alive and there's something very resonant and powerful about those images..

Louise: 21:44

Absolutely. And it really makes you wonder where is it coming from? And where, what, what is this world? Because when people start to engage those images, I'll have new clients that'll come in and they'll say, what if it doesn't work? What if I can't get there? What if the images don't come alive? I've never seen it not happen. Not once. I've never seen it not happen. The images are so present. And all I have to go do is say, um, where, where do you, where do you see the dog? They'll point to it. They know where it is in space around them at this moment, sometimes months after the actual dream happened. So it's, um, and then, yes, as you were saying that it, it animates people and it's because it comes from the self. It comes from the soul. It's all of those things that. Maybe we have an idea that we are. Maybe we don't know yet, but as soon as we start to really work with them, they come alive around us and we come alive to, to all of those images as well. And it's interesting what you're saying with AI, that those images don't resonate with you. And I think part of it is, So my brother is a photographer and he has the same, um, he has the same reaction as you do. And what he says is that it's because he knows intellectually, that there was no journey to get there. Nobody had to get on a plane. Nobody had to hike up the mountain. Nobody had to, you know, sit there overnight in the cold to get that morning shot. There, there was no suffering, if you will, to get to the finished product. It. And I think that, I hate to say it, but I really think that there, that human condition that we're talking about, suffering is a huge part of it. And the way that we reframe suffering is that we turn it into experience, we turn it into resonance, we turn it into that feeling quality that other people can relate to, which makes them feel more human as well. So

Steven: 24:14

Well, I want to get to the dream that, uh, enlivened you this, and, and so you were setting us up that you were focused on writing and acting and, and that industry, but your unconscious was working on something else at that time.

Louise: 24:31

Absolutely. And at the time I was already, I had clients, I had a few clients here and there. I was teaching classes. It's always using DreamWork in my, in my work with other writers or, you know, it was, it was, it was always alive to me. I'd gone to Pacifica and done the DreamTrending program. So, you know, I had formal training in it as well. And it was calling me. It was deeply calling me. And then too. I was getting some success in my writing career and I thought I can't leave that. But every time I'd go on a pitch in the back of my mind, I was saying, well, if I sell this show, what's going to happen to my relationship with my son? You know, like, and it was, it was, um, it was a big conundrum and it was a longstanding conundrum for me. And so I got to this edge where I thought, okay, I can't figure this one out by myself. So this was in the early, early days of COVID. Everybody was in lockdown. I put myself on retreat, um, which meant that for the five hours a day that I had a babysitter, I just went into my, my office and, um, dropped in, dropped into my dreams. And I had some wonderful dreams at the time that were, that felt very numinous. And so I thought, okay, I'll, I'll take a week. I'll go on retreat and hopefully my dreams will reveal to me what I need to do. And I was drawing my dreams and I was moving with my dreams and I was doing all kinds of writing with the dream figures and everything. And Monday went by, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday went by. I still didn't have any idea of what I was gonna do. Um, and Friday morning I said to myself, you know, maybe I'll just extend my retreat. And then I dropped into this dream And I'm, it's funny, I'm getting like a whole physical remembering of, of, of that. Um, so I dropped into this dream and this was a spectacular dream where these creatures came out of the ocean down in Santa Monica on the beach. Creatures came out of the ocean, these dolphins and whales were just breaching and then these two golden dragons started flying. I mean, it was like, One of those dreams and I was in it. I dropped myself into this imaginal landscape, right? And I was very, it was very alive around me. And. Yet, as amazing as it was, it was still like, okay, you know, like nothing, nothing very clear is coming through the psyche as much fun as I'm having, you know, I could stay here forever, but, and so I knew from my own training and from what I always tell people. Um, what is going on behind you? What is the thing that perhaps in the dream, the ego has airbrushed out, right? Because the ego doesn't necessarily want us to change dramatically. So we'll wake up, we'll write down the dream. And there's this detail where we're like, we either don't write it down because it doesn't feel significant or we don't remember it at all.

Steven: 28:03

I find that so interesting. Um, there's the alchemist motto, sometimes called insterquillinus invenitur.

Louise: 28:10

Oh,

Steven: 28:10

filth it shall be found. Yeah, where you least want to look is where you most need to look. What

Louise: 28:19

right. And so I had this feeling in the dream that there was someone over here, didn't know who it was, but I knew that, you know, when you drop into the dream, like I said, it becomes very alive around you and you have a real sense of being back in the place. Um, and so I had a feeling that someone was standing over here, but I, I had not bothered to look, but I thought, okay, I should probably do what I always tell everybody else to do. And I turned and I looked. And it was this figure who had come through dreams a number of times. Um, I call him the beloved of the soul. It's the sort of animus principle, the very supportive, masculine figure. There's no person in the world. He doesn't, you know, have a, he's not projected onto a person of the world. He's pure psyche, and he was standing there back there and all he was doing was this, just I was like, okay, that's curious. Let me try to do this and and see what that feels like because in the dream work We work with gestures, too. If you could really make a gesture of the essence of what you're feeling. What does that? What is that? So I did his gesture and I thought what words are here if this gesture could talk What would it say and it said how can I help? And it changed. It was like a wall just cracked and fell down around me. And I realized that what I was doing in my television career was all trying to get something and that what I was doing and wanting to do in my coaching, my dream work. And that I was not living from the heart over here, because I was just obsessed with, not obsessed, but I was, it was really all about what can they give me? How can they help me? But what I actually wanted to do, and what the soul was calling me to do, was, How can I help? And that's when I changed and I left television. Yeah, it was a complete reorientation. Um, but it had been calling me for a while and I feel even as I was, even as I was an actor, even as I was a writer and working, you know, as a creative executive, it was there, it was always happening. I just had not allowed it to come to consciousness until that moment. So,

Steven: 31:13

And that gesture for people listening is is the hands from the heart kind of forward. You know, yeah, how can I help? How can I lend my hands from And We've talked a lot about the tortured artist versus the thriving artist. And maybe the first iteration was your writing and acting was coming from a somewhat egoic place, not the fullest opening. And maybe that's what, that's how you get out of being tortured, is becoming in service of something.

Louise: 31:52

Yeah, I, I think so. I think so. Um, if you can get there. But the trick is, how do you get there? Um, and the tortured artist is a real thing. I mean, I, I have seen it first hand with certain people that I've worked with. Mm hmm. It can destroy you if you're not, if you don't have a solid container around you. It can really mess with you because you're hearing multiple voices the whole time. You're holding all of these very big archetypal energies and you're asking them to speak through your instrument. So if you don't have safety, if you don't have that strong, healthy ego, as well as the access to the unconscious, if you don't have a way of leaving it. It can, it can become pure torture, and I think that was what happened a lot in, you know, 1900s. I feel it's shifting because people are bringing more consciousness to, um, to the creative process, hopefully. So, yeah.

Steven: 33:01

And how has that unfolded for you? This new ethos being in service, how does that work? Practically? How's that practically change your life?

Louise: 33:11

gosh, that's a great question. Well, first of all, it's made me happy. And I think that's, that's, that's probably the, the, the major way in which it has changed my life is that it's completely shifted my perspective around what life is. Of course, being a parent helps with that too, because your life is not your own anymore. Anything you do, you're doing it in service to, um, to the next generation. But yeah, I think it's just, it's made me a better person. I think what it's, really done is that it's made it so unimportant, what the format is, if you will, what the result is. I don't care what it looks like if I'm helping a person become a better artist, a more connected human being. It doesn't matter to me if I'm, you know, who that person is, what my own creative work will look like out in the world, any of those things, it doesn't matter. I mean, I was in stage, uh, recently after years away, over 10 years away. I had the best time. I know I changed some lives with what I was doing because people came up to me and told me afterwards, and that was great, but I was asked, well, are you going to now go back into it? Are you going to, you know, be in something else? Are you going to try to pursue acting again? And I said, no, if that's what spirit calls me to do, okay, I'll do it. But I don't have an ego attachment to it. I'm not trying to get something. I'm just trying to, for lack of a better way of putting it, create rituals that can, help my community, the people around me access more, more of themselves, more soul, more, um, Understanding of, of what it means to be alive and what we can do in the world

Steven: 35:33

Hmm.

Louise: 35:34

create a better, to create a better world. Long winded way of trying to answer

Steven: 35:39

No, it's a beautiful answer. So the, what I'm hearing is, uh, the art is a by product of a holing process or a healing process or something that is well founded that the art is not destroying the vessel that creates it.

Louise: 35:59

Exactly. And while the art is important and I think it becomes more important when you look at it this way, because it becomes a vehicle. Uh, for the people of the world to see themselves, to come to know themselves and, um, to come to know the darker sides of themselves so that they don't have to project them out onto other groups or demographics or political parties, you know? So the art, in a sense, becomes even more important. But, uh, but me in the art? is not important, if that makes sense.

Steven: 36:46

Yes, and I'm imagining it enters the client work. I'm imagining clients come to you with creative goals and that have some relevancy to the dominance hierarchy and establishing themselves. And then, subversively, you sense parts that aren't earned, Conflicts that aren't conscious and you're helping them to heal. So maybe your goal has shifted that healing is baked in now to what you're doing.

Louise: 37:18

Absolutely. And the beauty of it is that people's imagination will open that up. It isn't me who opens that up. I just Show them a reflection of what's already there. But people will come in with content. Maybe they've just been cast in a movie or a play and they ask for my help, to coach them. Or they have a novel that they want to write and they have me help them with that. And the content that they have either come up with or been given by the world Always speaks to their own journey of individuation. There's always something there that they are not conscious of yet. but that when they become conscious of it, they become more. So the art is really in service to the artist as well. The role that they play brings something out of them that they need to become more whole and healed people. And similarly, when people are writing something, a few months down the line, The client will always say, I, I knew that I was writing about something, you know, in my life. I had no idea that this novel literally held everything that I am. And it does. If you write it well, you know, and if you, if you really bring consciousness to the process, like everything in your life is, is woven through that material. And so it becomes a real alchemical process. And it's, it's very beautiful to watch. One of my dream work teachers always used to say, you know, you don't do all of this dream work so that you can get the role. She said, you get the role so that you can get the big dream through playing that role and go to the next step of your individuation, you know? So it really becomes this interesting figure eight where. The art weaves through the unconscious, the unconscious weaves through the art and more and more and more you become conscious of who you are from the largest possible perspective.

Steven: 39:40

I love that. Yeah. So the figures, the dream figures are autonomous agents that are reaching into the daylight world. And you're more and more respecting that and allowing them. So that you're not, tamping everything down and, your inner life is becoming more and more alive and participatory in your life.

Louise: 39:59

Exactly, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Mm hmm.

Steven: 40:04

I'm imagining a client coming in with your dream where the dragons and magical creatures are coming out of the ocean that they might be fixated on the sky and the,

Louise: 40:14

I was. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven: 40:17

then something in you might notice the man behind or you might sense them, the way they bring in the figure, you might stand out to you in some way.

Louise: 40:30

Yes, yes, I think so, and it's, you know, it's also just a facilitation, right? So, we're in conversation with another person, and, um, this is why we need conversation. This is why we need dialogue, because the person you're talking to will always say, well, have you thought of this? Or, when this thing happened, did you notice this and that? And you didn't. And then suddenly there's an added perspective. I always say, um, dreams are a little bit like, um, your, uh, eyebrows. In that they're the closest thing to your eyes. But you can't see them, you know, so because the dream is so personal and because it's so like interwoven into who I am, it's really hard for me to interpret it because again, as I said before, ego will airbrush out all of the details that could be problematic to its existence. So, um, so. You know, again, I will, I will very rarely tell people any kind of interpretation of the dream. So they won't come in and, you know, talk about their dragons and I'll say, Well, in Chinese mythology, the dragons mean this. And then, you know, European mythology,

Steven: 41:59

called amplification, right? Some unions do

Louise: 42:02

called We might do it a little bit. I might sort of, you know, throw some little seeds in there and see if they, if they take, um, but most of the time, what I will do is just help people facilitate a rediscovery of those energies, those figures in the dream, and particularly what they open up for the dreamer. So it's good and well to know what a yellow dragon means in Chinese mythology. And it just so happens that it meant something of that for me. That was really the, um, visceral and somatic experience that I had of that energy. Somebody else might really not like them at all. They might not like the color yellow. They might be really scared of any kind of reptilian energy. And so the dream takes on a completely different meaning. But if the person were to come in and say, I had a dream about yellow dragons. And I, as the Dreamtender, say, Well, that's great, because that would mean this. I've shortchanged their, um, their life, really.

Steven: 43:15

Hmm.

Louise: 43:16

Because, uh, yeah.

Steven: 43:17

I really liked that, that you explore rather than interpret. And. It's reminding me of a supervisor once said, the dream is already an interpretation of the person's life.

Louise: 43:31

Absolutely.

Steven: 43:31

need to stay with it and really get it.

Louise: 43:35

Yes, absolutely. And the thing, too, is you probably are familiar with this Jung quote, If you were conscious of the material already, you wouldn't need the dream. The dream comes because you're not conscious of what's moving through that particular place

Steven: 43:53

Hmm.

Louise: 43:54

That particular way of being with what's happening in the world. So the dream has to come to offer that slight correction or that other possibility. So,

Steven: 44:08

I've heard you talk about important dreams. Use that phrase that some dreams seem to hold more power or they, they just something channels or something archetypal comes through or something very important is in the dream. Okay. I've had, you know, some of those dreams for sure. And I've had other dreams which seem, they just seem like a mishmash of, it's hard to make much of them, Is meaning evenly distributed throughout your dream life, or does it break through in powerful ways at times?

Louise: 44:41

I think it breaks through in powerful ways at times. And what I'll notice too is that, um, people, people will have a series of dreams that really speak to the same thing, the same issue. So maybe similar, the same characters will weave through, um, a few dreams. at a time or similar themes, similar landscapes, there will be like a, you know, a set of three to four dreams that really go, okay, here is what we would like you to look at now. Um,

Steven: 45:17

They come in sets, like waves.

Louise: 45:19

yes, they really do. They really do. Yeah. Um, and I say that, and then of course, for some people, it's not like that at all. They'll have one dream that they remember throughout a year. Um, but that is definitely a threat or a trend that I'm noticing. Um, and then I do think that there, there is an element of the dream life too, where you're just sort of moving through material, you're just cycling through whatever needs to move through the psyche, you know, particularly, I think if you've spent a lot of time looking at, um, Netflix or you know, you've been binge watching a show. It, psyche will just kind of need that clean out. And maybe it doesn't matter so much that you're, um, that these characters that you've been looking at all day. Or moving through your, your dreams,

Steven: 46:12

So there might be signal and noise. There might be some elements that are less.

Louise: 46:17

yeah, I think so. Like stream of consciousness. Stream of consciousness, thoughts. It's like when you journal, um, if you, if you do automatic writing in your journal, there might be a lot of just nonsense that comes out. And then here and there, there's this nugget of like, Oh wow, I could actually start thinking like this, or this is a great idea, you know? So I think dreams are a little bit like that too, where, and people don't remember their dreams always. Um, so, so it'll just kind of move, the river will keep flowing and then once in a while there's this like, okay, here you go, here you go. So, yeah, and, and more important dreams will come if you start to ask for, if you start to ask for them.

Steven: 47:09

Yeah, have you noticed that with clients, that as they do this work, the dreams start to come more?

Louise: 47:13

oh yeah, yeah. And dreams change over time. So, people will come in with, with some very clear somatic content. And as they work through it, the figures start to change. So as an example, again, the animus might start out as a threatening figure or a wild man or a criminal or something that, you know, is uncontrollable, um, for the, the woman dreamer, who's got that relationship to her inner man, you know, and then as she works with that figure, dances with that figure, it changes. And suddenly, It holds a different type of energy, you know, and it'll always be that masculine energy for the woman, but it might morph into much more of a, of a beautiful figure, a beloved of the soul, as I said.

Steven: 48:12

Yeah, and the animus being the, the major repressed quality, right, or the gateway to the rest of the unconscious. Some, to some primary figure that mediates a lot of the rest of the unconscious.

Louise: 48:28

Yes, absolutely.

Steven: 48:29

At first you might, you might have a relationship to your unconscious that's distrusting and treats it as a threat. Yeah.

Louise: 48:36

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, you know, often when nightmares, um, come. And nightmares, like nothing else, bring people, to somebody like me. Because they're so uncomfortable, they're so hard to handle. Um, many people start getting, you know, anxiety about going to sleep, but the nightmares are really only there, um, to make people pay attention because nothing else will make people pay attention. So,

Steven: 49:07

I'm thinking of the advice for bad trips, which is see if you can accept the experience. See if you can Welcome, whatever's happening, however heinous and frightening, and that itself can transform the elements. And so, yeah, so that seems to resonate with your approach in accepting and owning elements. Is that fundamental? Is that the thing that's producing the biggest shift?

Louise: 49:38

Yes, I think so. But I think in order to get there, You need a lot of support, and the beauty of the dream, the beauty of the nightmare, is that it will often hold that support, you just haven't seen it, again, making that slight turn and looking behind you. You might discover another being in the dream. You might discover a tree. You might discover anything that can create that level of support. I will never have anybody go into this deep dark material, whether it's It's something they're writing or if they're cast as a serial killer or, you know, a character in the Scottish play or similar, um, or they just have a nightmare. I'll never let people go and engage that image unless we first establish the support system. So I'll ask people to find those figures of support. They might come from dream, you know, they might, it might be, Oh, great. Now I have a figure that I can work with. It makes me, that really relaxes that anxiety that I have about the nightmare figures. It might be a person from childhood. It might be a place. from my life where I feel truly at home, um, and supported. It might be an animal. Whatever, whatever opens up that trust, that, that acceptance, as you're saying, um, we need those figures first and foremost. They then allow me to look at the intolerable image, at the nightmare figure and go, okay, there's something here I haven't noticed. They actually are like me. in this way. Once you can see that, then you can begin a dialogue again. So you take back the projection from the figure in dream. You can do it in dream, maybe you can do it in the world, and maybe then we have a better world, ultimately.

Steven: 51:52

Yeah, where projections are earned.

Louise: 51:54

Yes.

Steven: 51:55

yeah, so we come at it from different angles, but I feel like we end up at a very similar place, and one way to describe it is a philosophy where there are no enemies within,

Louise: 52:08

Yes.

Steven: 52:08

or no bad parts. From an internal family systems perspective, all of the parts, even the threatening ones, they've formed for some intelligent reason to protect you in some way, and they've just become frozen and they want to update and to become team members if they can be included in the right way. Uh, yeah. And then, and then as you do that, you're threatening parts become more and more cooperative. And in Peter Levine's work, he talks about the unconscious tone goes from threatening to, uh, supportive or nostalgic. It has a glow to it, the inner world as it's more and more owned.

Louise: 52:51

hmm.

Steven: 52:52

And so then, and then as that happens, you can tolerate the competing interests of the different parts. You can be in contact with both and then you don't need to project your bad parts into the into immigrants or Jewish people or black people, you know, you can, yeah. And so then out of conflicts will slowly diminish as people have more and more capacity internally.

Louise: 53:19

Mm hmm. Exactly. Exactly. And so if I can recognize it as mine, going back to the Tempest, right? I think we probably talked about that eight years ago. Um, we have this magician, beautiful male ego character, Prospero, who, um, is so mean to the shadow aspect. The Caliban figure, the animalistic nature that he lives with. And in the last part of the play, he turns to this animal nature and says, This darkness I acknowledge mine. And so I think that is really a crystallization of, of what you're talking about. This darkness I acknowledge mine. If I can see that I have the capacity for brutality, for rage, for You know, horrendous imaginings. And we all do. It doesn't mean that we act on them, of course, but we all have that capacity. If I can see that, then I can forgive myself.

Steven: 54:36

Hmm.

Louise: 54:39

And if I can forgive myself, there's a possibility, I believe of a ripple effect out into the environment where I suddenly don't need to see it played out out there because I've, I've played it out in here. You know, and I have played it out on stage. I've played it out in my screenplay. So there's that individuation again that can happen. And it doesn't necessarily take away the brutality of what's happening in the world, but it does set me free to make a different choice. And it sets me free to, as you're saying, not project it onto a demographic, or a, a neighbor, you know, or, or anything. I can go, yeah, they do that. But you know, if I'm honest, I, I could do it too. I just don't. But what also happens is that, and I have done this work quite a lot for myself and also for other people with, um, Whoever in the world holds that projection. So let's say a political figure or, um, an ex husband or somebody who did something bad to me when I was little, you know, and you take that energy of the intolerable image. This comes from Steven Eisenstadt, my mentor, he always talks about, taking that energy of the intolerable into the underworld, where the original form of it exists. So, that would be, let me put it, let me put it a different way. The projection that I have on this, external person is a distorted energy of something that in its purest form would actually feed me, would actually, um, work with me, and would hold tremendous energy. For me as a human being. I've repressed it for whatever reason and it's become Ugly and because I can't look at the ugly I take it and I go, oh it belongs to this one That's the ugly not me.

Steven: 57:08

Hmm. Is it an example you could give of this to really hit home? Hard works

Louise: 57:14

So as an example, if I took my least favorite politician and thought about all of the qualities that he or she has that I just hate, but then take that energy and really work hard with my figures of support with me, all of these figures, my ancestors, my dream figures, my animals, all of these figures, as support, And I engage with that least favorite politician in a different way. I can see, oh, there is suffering here, and I know suffering. There is greed here, and I know greed. I can relate to that. Now I'm going to drop into a different level of the psyche, and I'm going to see if that image had a different form, like a more pure form, knowing that it has nothing to do with the actual politician out there.

Steven: 58:13

Using it, using it as a gateway into

Louise: 58:16

using it as a gateway to myself. Then I might drop down, and I might see a battered animal, say. And I can take ownership of that battered animal. And I can say, what do you need? Animal says, I just need you to see me. I just need you to pet me once in a while. Then I've taken responsibility, and I've pulled back my projection. Again, least favorite politician can do whatever they want out there. It's not my business anymore.

Steven: 58:50

It stops triggering you.

Louise: 58:52

it stops triggering you. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It triggers me in a different way where I don't feel like it destroys me or I don't feel like it has that much power over me. It may have power on one level but on the underneath level It doesn't.

Steven: 59:17

That's helpful. We should probably just describe how the process of DreamWorks goes. How you set it up, where you start, what you look for, when it goes well, what happens.

Louise: 59:29

Okay. Um, so people will come in, they will recount their dream. I, I don't take, um, I don't let them write the dream to me, um, beforehand. I'd rather just have it in its purest form and come into the office or into the Zoom room. Okay. And they give me, uh, the dream. Then I draw people in, by which I mean, I do some breath work, some somatic work, to create a different spaciousness. and really get out of the judgment, the anxiety, the, you know, all of the expectations of what's supposed to happen or what people want to have happen and drop into that deeper layer of breath and body and, you know, enliven people a little bit through some gentle movements, gentle breath work, um, and release of tension. Then we'll enter the dream again, by which I mean, I'll ask them to recreate imaginally with their eyes closed. Invite them to really bring in the somatic experience. What is the air like? How is it different? What's the smell like here? What's, what do you hear? What do you notice? What, what's, how does this light in this space hit your, your skin? Your, and what does the body want to do in this place? And then we'll bring in the figures. We'll work with the figures in a similar way. We'll speak, uh, we'll, we'll slow it down, um, enough that the dreamer can really get a felt sense of what this figure is. And what this figure opens up inside of them. So of all the images that Psyche could give us, this is the one that it chose. Why? Who is this one? What is the resonance in me of this one? And then we'll, we'll speak with the figure. Often times, you know, people will come in, and they'll speak a little bit to what's going on in their life. I invite that. And then once we're here, once we're dropped into the dream, we'll work with the figure that's in the dream. And we may ask those questions. Well, what do you think about my writer's block or what would you do? How would you handle, you know, these problems that I'm having in my family,

Steven: 1:02:03

you bring in the, the current symptom or the active complaint.

Louise: 1:02:07

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And then the figure will have a perspective on, on that. And then we'll ask, well, how do I live this perspective more fully? Okay. What are some things I could do to maybe live a little bit more with your energy in my worldly circumstance? I will say though, because you asked, how do I know that it's going well? There's always a moment. If the session's going well, there is always a moment where I have no idea where we're going. No idea. And then I breathe, and I trust, because I too will think, oh, it's going this way, but then suddenly it goes that way. But that's where the turn happens, and that's when it really goes well, because nobody knows what the heck is happening. And of course, that's, as we've talked about, that's where the gold. Um, and then once we've worked for a bit with these figures and we've really gotten to know them, I'll ask people to come back out of, um, of the drop down state, open their eyes, and we'll talk a little bit about what are some things that I can do, um, in the next week or so, to help come closer or bring that energy more. Into my life, bring that energy through more. Um, oftentimes gestures will come organically. Um, and people don't even know that they're doing them, but again, I'll slow them down and I'll go, okay, what is this? You're doing this. What, what is this for you? Or whatever, whatever the gesture may be. And then again, there will be some information coming through from the physical body. And, um, and people will have that tool then. I often will say to people, you know, so, okay, you have this gesture, right? How can I help? And what would be the minimal, minimal, tiny version of that that you could do and nobody would notice? What could you do? Well, I could just do this. Nobody would see me do it. I could do it in my pocket. But it would spark the same, um, quality of experience.

Steven: 1:04:33

developing a tool to access that state.

Louise: 1:04:37

That's right. Yeah. Well, to access that quality of experience in their daily life, because where it may be easy to do when you're dropped in and you're in, you know, somebody's office with, um, a person who is all about facilitating that process. Maybe when you're in the actual situation where it counts, it's not as easy. But so if you keep practicing this, how can I help you keep practicing and practicing and practicing every day, do 10 times in the morning? And then you have your minimal version of it. That's just this. Same thing happens. That quality of experience begins to move through me. Just because the body is so alive. And the body always lives in this sort of dream like state.

Steven: 1:05:25

breathing this dream energy into life. You're more and more bringing it in.

Louise: 1:05:31

and that's why it comes, because it wants to be known in the world, and specifically for the dreamer, because it wants the dreamer to have access to it so that they can do something else. And stop doing the same, you know, the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. They can actually have a change of perspective, a change of behavior through the energy. Of the dream. So,

Steven: 1:06:03

Hmm. Yeah. I could feel just that gesture. I could feel how that could shift things, we talked about somatic anchors.

Louise: 1:06:13

Mm. That's what it is. Exactly. Mm hmm.

Steven: 1:06:16

The To disclose, we've done dream work together. You've taken me through a few dream walkthroughs. Is that the phrase you would use?

Louise: 1:06:24

Hm, hm,

Steven: 1:06:25

there were immensely powerful experiences at a very formative time as I was switching similarly to you, switching from an emphasis on creative production to an emphasis of how can I help? And I want to open up the dream a little bit that we did the one time. And I think what, to me, what feels really powerful and maybe the active ingredient is how much you cared about these images and you were wrapped. You were so engaged and alive and intent on giving this form and on valuing the inner life. I could rest into that and then it made it easier for me to experience it as valuable, as worth attending to. And so this, this image happened in the dream where, it was a side note of the dream, similar to the figure in yours, interestingly. But the dream ended with me on a beach looking out over the ocean and there was a beacon that was submerged. It could just be seen in the ocean. And, uh, I can't remember if you suggested we investigate that or, or if I just wanted to, but I didn't expect us to go into that element of the dream. It was not a prominent element, um, but we did. And, uh, I swam out to the, this beacon and I kind of followed the line down from it down under the ocean and a cave opened up and the cave was yeah it was it was a cave full of treasure and a council of elders a little bit Tolkien esque and this sly figure who was a trickster energy had a gift for me and it was a dagger And I had not anticipated any of this. I hadn't really even expected that I could produce an image like this without intending, but it just happened. I remember saying when we were working, I have no idea what this is about, this dagger. And, um, You said something like, doesn't, doesn't surprise me. Or you, it, uh, you could, you could maybe see more of the context of the dream than I could. I was so in it. You just, Suggested that maybe there was meaning to this dagger that helped me to sit with it more. And as I reflected on that dream, I don't think I necessarily even developed the meaning in that session, but as I continued to sit with that image, I realized part of me needed to die I was so attached to this childhood creative story of, you know, I don't know, being some famous artist or whatever it was. And that was actually getting in the way of something more important. Um, and so, yeah, the, I think you really tending to the images in a way that gave them, uh, power and a right to be helped me to value that. And then when I look back at it. That was absolutely what needed to happen. And yeah, my psyche was ready in transition much more than I could realize at the time.

Louise: 1:10:07

hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, and that's often where that constellation will come But because the psyche's already been doing so much of it. The origin of the image has traveled and traveled and traveled with you And then it becomes this crystallization of the dagger. This is what needs to happen. And, but there's been a preparation on your side as well. And the beauty of that moment, and it's coming back to me as you're, as you're describing it again, um, is that surprise. Because that's where everything can open up from. If you found a dagger and you said, Oh, I know exactly what that's for. Well, then why would you get it? Again, why would you even need to get the dagger if, if you already know what it's for? But it's that reveling in the mystery of what the psyche produces. There's the mystery of it, and then also this, um, even if you don't have a certainty, then just pretend that you have a certainty that it is here for a profound reason.

Steven: 1:11:22

I think this is our job as therapists and, you know, dream tenders. And I, you know, I draw commonality here.

Louise: 1:11:30

Mm

Steven: 1:11:31

It's co creating, it's an artistic endeavor. It's not a scientific, backward looking thing where the answer was back there and we just need to draw some straight lines and create a geometric pattern and then we're done. But it's, yeah, more of an enlivening process where Things come more and more into view and more and more into life. And we don't know where it's going. All we're doing is helping to guide a little and helping something to emerge or, or the, the metaphor of the midwife.

Louise: 1:12:12

Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And it really is, um, a mastery of, of I don't know. As I think art should be at this time. Art and dreaming and. and facilitating healing for others should have that level of mastery. Of course, we train and we have mastery in the intellectual, you know, um, academic sense as well. And that is absolutely important because without that, there is no form that we can break out of. Um, but then when you're actually in the session with the person, it's about, or in the session with your creative work, what you're looking for is that mastery of, I don't know, because it's from, I don't know that the new can be born.

Steven: 1:13:04

Yes. To really access some, something original or really alive. Yeah.

Louise: 1:13:11

Yeah. And just the third alternative, you know, we are in such a difficult spot culturally as a world now. Yeah. I mean, we really have come to that edge. And so what do we have? We have, I don't know. And from, I don't know, there's always the spark that suddenly appears, you know. you have to choose, you have to make your choices in, in this world that's so full of choices. But I do think that we also have to allow for that possibility of a third thing emerging. Maybe it's not this or that. Maybe this and that, if I hold it, hold both, can give birth to a different way of being, a different reality.

Steven: 1:14:00

That somehow incorporates both, right. It becomes more of an and than an or.

Louise: 1:14:05

yes, it's not to be or not to be anymore. I mean that we've lived that metaphor. It's or that that Schema, it's to be and not to be existing at the same time.

Steven: 1:14:18

Interesting. I want to come back to what you said about, the not knowing as the right place to be creatively.

Louise: 1:14:27

Mm hmm.

Steven: 1:14:28

And I had an art teacher who said, If you know what you're creating before you start, and then you execute it, and it is like you intended, what you've created is propaganda.

Louise: 1:14:42

Oh, well interesting. Yeah.

Steven: 1:14:43

And I wonder if that's what we're seeing in Hollywood, in a lot of mainstream media, not enough risk taking, that where there's too much intentionality around what is created, and not enough space for something to surprise us.

Louise: 1:15:01

Yeah, I think so. I think so and and you know, there's a lot of soapboxing happening Everybody has their, their sort of thing that they stand for, and there's nothing wrong with that, but art should surprise, and, um, you know, the artistic process should surprise the artist and the, and the viewer. Um, so, you know, art is not, um, art is not news, and even though there's always a societal level to art, There's more to it as well, you know, it is in propaganda. And if you get too married to one side of things in art, I think you, again, you, you, you cut yourself off from the possibility of surprise and the possibility of, again, that third alternative emerging that is neither this nor, and then I think too, you know, art has the capacity to really help lead the way for the culture. What I find in Hollywood is that artists very rarely take that on, that role of, torchbearer, for, for the soul. It, art has always had that, that mission, right, to really help, to help the world individually, to help. point the way to the future. And I know many, many artists in Hollywood who are actively taking that on. And I think that's very important now because the answer is not going to come from contending with the issues of the day alone. The answer is going to come if we In the words of Marie Louise Van Frans, swim away from the collective and begin to take our own inner images seriously and then bring them to the culture. Because, again, they're here for a reason. Dream wants us to individuate and art has the same capacity, the same, the same pull. Um, Joseph Campbell says that myths are collective dreams and dreams are individual myths. So the stories that we are telling, ideally, are collective dreams. They are the myths for the culture. And we need stories to live by. We need stories to define us. So, that's, um, that's my clarion call when I work with people always is, you know, what myth are you giving to the culture? And what are you, what in your work speaks to where we're going and how we're going to get there.

Steven: 1:17:55

Yeah. And I, I want to extend it even further that, so the mythic is what, uh, you know, Hollywood is maybe a little bit devoid in at this point.

Louise: 1:18:06

hmm. Mm hmm.

Steven: 1:18:08

Personally, the more mythic your life becomes, the more it surprises you in a heroic sense, the more alive it becomes. And the more, archetypes are fully manifest and, and a multiplicity of them, right? Not just a single.

Louise: 1:18:25

hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And so more material becomes available to you. And this is why, ultimately, I think DreamWork is such a major component of, of creative, um, content for me and for the people I work with, is because when we are alive to our own myth, when we're alive to the mythic within us, We can bring it to the world and we can, we can create those mythic stories because we're so used to them. You know, we're so used to looking at them. We examine them every morning after we wake up with our,

Steven: 1:19:03

yeah. So I think then that a lot of our problems are a failure of imagination. Like when I hear a lot of people very negative on AI, for instance, and I just think we haven't found the myths. We haven't found our way through it, but I don't think we're done as

Louise: 1:19:19

No, absolutely. No, we're, we're going to be fine probably, hopefully.

Steven: 1:19:27

Or if we're

Louise: 1:19:27

but again, you're right.

Steven: 1:19:29

we can go out in a mythic way.

Louise: 1:19:32

Yeah. And we can, we can find ways of using it. That really serves us. There's no doubt. But we just have to, you know, again, we have to go within and, and decide what myth am I living and what am I, how am I going to use this to further my expression of what it means to be human in its fullness.

Steven: 1:19:53

Yeah. How to live a life. That's not propaganda. That does surprise you. That is

Louise: 1:19:59

Yes, exactly.

Steven: 1:20:01

Until your When you re oriented to the serving ethos, um, something more mythic started to come through. It feels to me

Louise: 1:20:12

Absolutely. Yeah,

Steven: 1:20:14

and then, yeah, so your life, your life story can become like these stories you work with. Your own life starts to actually have that energy.

Louise: 1:20:26

exactly. Exactly. And, um, and those conversations take on much more specificity because I know that images, I know the figures and the archetypes within my own life. So I can pull them out when I'm writing this character or, you know, when I'm, when I'm writing that, that scene, I've, I've lived through it in some way or another. even though it hasn't been like a grand scale, you know, war in the 18th century, but I've certainly, you know, thought deep principles within myself. And so I can, I understand what that means and you know, the fatigue of it and the getting back on the horse and all of these things. And so I can write to any experience because there is a resonance inside of my own life and there continues, that continues to open up, of course. So,

Steven: 1:21:26

Beautiful. I feel like I could do another three hours easily. But we're, yeah, unfortunately are at our time. I just want to call out the image behind you, um, since it's of your homeland. I didn't mention you're from Denmark. And, um, yeah, the, the, I think there's a European quality to some of the way that you process the world. And I, I sent, I sent some of that lineage coming through personally.

Louise: 1:21:53

Mm. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, you know, the woods where I grew up and it's, um, my house is full of, of grounding figures and images like that. I just, you know, create a home space in, in a larger sense of that, in a larger sense of that word. So it's this, but one of many many such, um, talismans.

Steven: 1:22:21

I like that. So you're creating your world with intentionality to have these rich images that help to anchor something.

Louise: 1:22:29

exactly. Yeah.

Steven: 1:22:31

Great. Well, thank you. I hope to have you. again soon.

Louise: 1:22:34

Yes. I hope so too. Okay.

Speaker: 1:22:38

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