New Friends, Different Votes: Is This Friendship Worth It?” (Lisa)

Shasta and Lisa are new friends who have recently discovered they have differing political views from one another. And although they are voting differently from each other this election season, Shasta and Lisa have actually chosen to embrace their contrasting beliefs, and use them as an opportunity for growth and deeper connection with one another. 

Throughout the episode, the friends discuss how they have sometimes feared being judged for their opinions, and how these fears often hinder them from speaking their minds in conversations. They talk about the importance of approaching sensitive topics with genuine curiosity, rather than a political agenda. And most importantly, they explore how healthy it can be to surround yourself with people who might have different viewpoints than you.

Tune into this third episode of Shasta’s political mini-series to hear an inspiring conversation about how new friendships can grow stronger by navigating difficult conversations with compassion and respect.

Connect with other listeners on our Mighty Networks community!

Join Shasta’s mailing list to be the first to know about upcoming episodes, friendship coaching, trips, and more: https://www.shastanelson.com/mailing-list.

Shasta’s books on belongingness and human connection:

• Friendships Don’t Just Happen!: The Guide to Creating a Meaningful Circle of GirlFriends
• Frientimacy: How to Deepen Friendships for Lifelong Health and Happiness
• The Business of Friendship: Making the Most of Our Relationships Where We Spend Most of Our Time

Connect with Shasta on her other platforms:

Shasta on Instagram

Shasta on YouTube

Shasta on Facebook

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We'll see you next time. With over 60% of us feeling lonely on a regular basis and way more of us wishing for just better relationships in general, it is so time for us to be intentional in building the friendships that will leave us feeling fulfilled. What's your first thought when you meet someone that you initially like and then you find out they're on the other side of the political spectrum? It's usually a little bit of disappointment, a little bit of judgment. And that's because that relationship typically only has three options. One, we simply assume that we can't be good friends because we're both on opposite sides and we go look for more like-minded people. That happens all the time. Sometimes we stay in the relationship for whatever reason and we end up having tough conversations and we leave feeling judged and defensive, demeaned. Maybe we have conflict. Maybe we do things that leave each other feeling hurt. That's never fun. And that's why we often choose the third path, which is, okay, let's keep building this friendship and just avoid all talk of the subject and just ignore the fact that we are voting differently. But what if there's another path? I don't know. I mean, I don't have the answers yet. It's not a clear paved path, that's for sure. But that doesn't mean it's not possible. Today, I'm inviting a new friend, Lisa, to join me because there's so much about her I really admire, even though I don't like who she's voting for in this election. But I'm curious if we can create a friendship that still feels fulfilling, not just an exercise, but that feels meaningful and fun, and yet also doesn't require either of us to be hidden or to act like there's taboo subjects or that we can't show up and share who we are and what we value. I don't know. Today, we're going to try to have that conversation and see if there's a possible route we can go. Thank you so much for joining us. Lisa, this is such a big honor that you would say yes and come join me in this really big conversation because it's a hard conversation to have even if we had been friends for 20 years, but you and I really have only known each other for about a year. Is that true? Yeah. I think

SPEAKER_00 2:35

maybe almost, yeah, almost a year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah. And we've only gotten together maybe four or five times in that year. And those times have been amazing. They've been really, really beautiful. But we kind of at some point sensed that we had different politics. And then we had a coffee recently. And I was talking about how I was feeling very convicted about wanting to do this podcast series on politics. friendships and political differences. And I had no intention of us having this conversation, but as you and I kind of talked about it, I was like, oh my goodness, this could be really, really beautiful if we could both show up for this. And we both felt a little scared about it, but here we are. And I would just love to hear from you before we start, like how you first sensed that we might have different politics, because we haven't really ever had a political conversation, but how did you first sense that we had different views and how did you feel about it when you first felt that?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, that's a great question. That's a really good question. I think I go into most new relationships now with a little bit of a caution and almost like an assumption that we probably do have different politics only because that helps me with all the things that I need to protect within myself because of what I personally have seen happen in the world or experienced. I'm a very sensitive person, so I never want to make anyone uncomfortable. feel judged. So it takes me a while to actually show up in a friendship or any relationship and even say anything about my my political beliefs, which are complicated. So it's like also very hard to describe them and just like, oh, I'm this, I'm that or I'm voting for this person. I'm voting for that person. It's not that simple for me. And so I know when we first met, you know, just thinking of like the first deeper encounter that we had where three couples were having dinner together and politics, I don't think it ever even came up. And it was such a beautiful conversation where we talked about things that really did matter to us. And we went to those places of vulnerability about values and what's really important without even talking about who we're going to go vote for on a ballot. And so that's I guess the answer to your question is that I probably sensed, I think we're all used to picking up on cues from people like, oh, okay, they're probably a Republican or they're probably a Democrat because they just said that or they just said that. And I think there's certain things that I tend to say in a conversation that really do matter to me that probably let people know at least where I stand on certain issues. And then you can start to make an assumption, right? I honestly don't. Don't do that as much with other people until it's really obvious, because I just assume that we're all good people. We all want to be seen as good people. And I'm not gravitating towards people who are strongly identified with either party at this point in my life. And if they are, that's usually pretty much a turnoff. on both sides for me. If they're trying to push it on people, if that's what they talk about, if they come from an emotional, strong place, I'm not really drawn to those relationships. So I think the fact that we had this dinner where we didn't even talk about it, but we went really deep that told me the kind of person you were rather than who's she gonna vote for.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

That's really beautiful. Yeah, you are very thoughtful in how you show up in the world and very beautiful in that way. You have a very beautiful aura that never feels like it's pushing anything on anybody. I remember at some point, I think you were describing why you moved to this community that we both live in and the reasons you gave had to do with kind of around the vaccine and stuff. And so you didn't say exactly where you were at on that. But I think that was the first time I kind of was like, oh, interesting. I wonder if we're how we both feel about this thing. And it felt like maybe it could be a little different. but I didn't, it wasn't something that we followed up on and we didn't like have this big conversation around it. It was just became a data point in my mind. That was like one more thing that I'm just kind of, you know, when you're making new friends, you're collecting all this data, like, okay, that's her husband. Okay. This is where they live. Okay. This was an amazing conversation. Oh my goodness. They love sourdough bread. Like, okay, this is like, you're just kind of collecting all this like data. Right. And it's like, okay. And that thing came up and, and it just kind of gets put into this folder, if you will, uh, for, as we're kind of building our understanding of each other. And, but really it was just recently Thank you. This is our first time we're having this conversation where we're actually saying like, okay, so now we know we both have kind of been brave enough to like unmask ourselves and say, okay, we are voting very differently. And we both feel like we're voting our values and we both have wonderful experiences with each other. And so why would we even consider being friends with somebody who is so different from us on this particular issue? And you kind of named a little bit that we also were able to have some really special moments and we have some commonalities in other areas, but maybe even before we get started, what's the advantage to having a friendship with someone who doesn't have the same worldview? Why are we even willing to try?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

That's a really good question. I think when it comes to you and I, we do have a certain emotional intelligence and ability to hold each other with care, compassion, and And curiosity. And so because of who we are, I think it is worth it. I think when people come from a place of strong emotional reaction, you do more harm than good when you bring it up. So that's why there's so many people who have this rule, like there's no talking politics or religion at the family dinner table because... A lot of people in this world don't have the ability to have that conversation in a way that encompasses respect for everyone and respect for all beliefs. And I know you and I, we do have that ability. And so for us, I believe it's worth it. And I think of this book that Christopher, my husband, talks about. It's called The Wisdom of Crowds. And I think it's James Sarecki. And the book talks about how collective wisdom can change actually be more accurate than individual expertise. And if we don't have these conversations, we can't really get wiser. We're living in a bubble and we're not learning from each other. We're not finding that collective wisdom. And I think that, so the anecdote in the book is that there was this country fair back in the 19th century in England, and people were asked to guess the weight of a sow. Nobody guessed the right weight, but it ended up being exactly in the median that everybody guessed. Wow. And so it's a story of how when we're not just listening in one bubble over here or one bubble over here, the collective wisdom, the crowd discovers the truth. They discover at least something in the middle. And I think we're so separate right now. We're hearing, we're both hearing, all sides are hearing different things. We know the algorithm on social media only shows us what we already believe. I'm old enough to have experienced what it was like to turn on the news and hear two different perspectives. And the news was accountable for that. And now, you know, I think something changed in the 1990s where there's different that they're not held accountable for that now. And they're really just self-interest. And before I go down that rabbit hole too much, because I'm someone who doesn't believe that we're all told the truth and we're I think that's what we all want is to be told the truth.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

And

SPEAKER_00 10:24

we have different news that we watch. And back to your question on this, I think that it's worth it to hear different perspectives just to broaden our view, just to know that we're not living in a bubble and we have the ability to hear the other wisdom or truth. I

SPEAKER_01 10:45

love that, and it matches how I would answer this question, too. I remember hearing the term bridging versus bonding social capital, and I heard it a couple decades ago. I think it was Robert Putnam, and he's kind of a Harvard teacher and author of the book Bowling Alone that was really a seminal book on loneliness that I read way back in the day. And he talks about how bonding social capital is when we are bonding with people in our same space. demographic group. And so he gives the example of like, if he's bonding with other white Jewish professors in the Harvard area, then that's bonding social capital. Whereas bridging social capital is when we are building relationships and ties with people who are different from us in any of those categories and in those ways. And that we live in a world that's more and more very siloed to your point. And we're creating all this like bonding social capital where it's like, we almost are just coming together and hearing our groupthink over and over and over in all these little containers, the strongest societies are the ones that are able to do the bridging relationships where we can actually hold hands across our differences and connect in broader ways. We become stronger. We get more woven. And so, yeah, you came at it from a different book and a different story, but I love that for both of us, it's kind of like we went really big, really fast. It's like, in theory, we both believe that our world... is better off if we have relationships with people who are different from us. And so like that's guiding both of us. And I think that's why we're willing to like put on microphones and like have this hard conversation because we believe in this bigger mission. Personally, does it feel like, like I just want to take that kind of personal for both of us. Does it feel... harder, like the advantages? Do the advantages feel still really real when you think about it from a personal perspective of having that relationship? Or does it suddenly start sounding like exhausting and kind of hard and you're filtering yourself a lot and you're kind of wondering what the other person's thinking? So yeah, like, does it feel less advantageous when you take it more on a micro level for you?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

That's a really good question. I think both of those are true for me. So I do avoid this conversation a lot. It is hard to monitor how everybody's going to feel, monitor myself, make sure I'm not offending people. Knowing that they're over here in a different bubble, I'm just very sensitive to that. And I also understand being in a different bubble. I have been myself and I'm trying to just not even like talk sides. You could do with any issue you could do it with. I mean, you brought up the vaccine. You could do that. I've personally experienced watching loved ones of other people, like cut them out of their life because of a decision they made about their own body and what to put in it. I've watched people call people names. I've watched people say they, you know, you don't deserve to live. I mean, I've, I've seen that all happen in front of me and it's, I've seen it happen in a way where it was almost like accepted to say those things. Like that was what was scary to me was to, I'll just give an example of that. I was on a board at one point in a certain area of the country and it's a certain area with a certain culture. pretty much bubble of beliefs. And they were saying things about the, quote, other side. And I thought to myself while I was in that board meeting, because it was just said very like, like this is an expectation, almost like we all expect that we're all on the same page here. And they were saying things really horrible about the other side on certain issues, on certain politics. And I thought, I really wonder, like, I hope there's nobody from that other side in this room because, wow, that would be really just so dividing and discriminating and painful for that person. So that's just an example of how we can almost get into this place where you just assume that, oh, this person's a good person, so they must be a blank or that or be on this side of this issue. And then you come to find out we're all very complex. Most of us really are good people. We all want the same things. And we all want to know the truth. And when we don't talk about these things, we Politics is one thing that just quickly divides us. And then you have other issues like vaccine. And I think that divides us even within the division. There's people on both sides of that. It brings to mind something you shared with me when we had our coffee. I wonder if you'd be willing to share it, which is the The thing you learned when you went to Rwanda, or it was the list

SPEAKER_01 15:05

of like... Yeah, we traveled with the Travel Circle back to Rwanda in 2017, and we were going through their genocide museum. And we're a group of Americans, and we're like, oh, this poor country, they had this genocide. And it sounds so terrible, but it's easy to kind of show up and have this like, oh, we just feel so bad for you, and this must have been so terrible. And it was interesting how the time back in the States, we had a big riot here that was around... And they were actually much more concerned about us than we were concerned about them. And I remember they were showing a list on the wall of some of the amazing deep reflection they've done of like what caused us to turn on each other and kill each other. Like what caused this genocide? And they've done, I mean, Rwanda was so impressive for what they've done on the backside to practice forgiveness, to practice healing, to practice reflection. And, you know, one of their reflections is like, these are the seven things that contributed, we believe, to us. turning on each other and killing each other. And I don't remember all seven. I will try to pull them and put them into the show notes maybe. But I remember one of them, it was just like when church and politics start mixing. And then another thing on the list was when somebody, a leadership starts having a lot of only people who agree with that person and just only surrounding by yes people and family members and loyalty is the highest value and not having opposing ideas tolerated. So yeah, they were just going down the list and all of us from America were like, Check, check. Check, check. Oh, one of the other things on the list was like when we start using names to call each other, like when our names, when we start doing name calling, when we start treating people disrespectfully, when we stop forgetting that that other person is a human, good, loving person, to your point, where we just start, it's easy to kind of demonize the other side. And when we can hear ourselves doing that, like check, it's not that much more of a stretch to like get to terrible outcomes, you know? So yeah, it's easy sometimes when you're here to just be like, well, what we're doing to each other isn't that bad. It's ugly and it's not fun but it's like we would never do that and yet they didn't think they would ever do that either and so yeah it's a really powerful thing to presence is that the part of it that you were referencing

SPEAKER_00 17:11

yeah I just think that you know what that demonstrates is that people sort of what happens when you're afraid is tribalism is like a way that people try to feel safe by coming together with people who are similar to them and then the division creates that sense of safety as well because it's like these people are going to have my back against those people and Politics can do that really easily, especially because I believe, you know, within all the political spectrum, you have the talking heads or the, you know, the people on the podium are doing that. I think they're all doing that. So I don't think it's helping us. But if we can have these conversations, and especially for me, Shasta, and you know this about me, the deeper conversations that get us to what those emotional reactions are about, because those emotional reactions are what's pushing us away from each other.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Why

SPEAKER_00 18:03

do we feel afraid? Why is it so hard for me to talk about politics? I was nervous to do this with you. And then my bigger self, my true self was like, yes, let's be role models for doing this, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah. Well, we've covered well, I think, why we feel like this is both important work to do. And we've kind of touched into the next question I wanted to ask us, which is, what are some of the downsides we might face? Why is this so hard? What fears come up for both of us? What costs are there? Because it's one thing in an ideal world to be like, yes, we can be friends with each other. And in real life, it can feel much more exhausting, we were saying, and how much filtering we do and how much judgment we're feeling. And, you know, so kind of like why, what makes it harder? What will be the harder things for you and me to be friends with each other? And I'm happy to go first and kind of start. being honest here and want to give you permission to be as honest as you can be too. But I was sitting with this and I was like, yeah, why is this so hard? Because I have friends who are opposite. They have kids and I don't have kids or they're extreme introverts or we have totally different religious beliefs or we have different areas of life we struggle with. And I was like, so we fundamentally have relationships with people who are opposite us in so many areas. Why does this feel so hard? And it's really, for me, what come up, and I'd be curious to know if it's the same or different for you, but just the word judgment was just really, really big. Mm-hmm. Being judged is the fear of like you not admiring me or you not seeing me or you having these terrible thoughts about me. And to be, let's be frank and honest, I'm giving those same thoughts back to you. Like I'm like a judgmental person and I hate to say that. And so there's like a double whammy for me because A, I do feel judgment and to pretend I don't would not be truthful. I do feel judgment. And then I cover that up with like shame because I don't want to be somebody judgmental, right? And so then it's like this double whammy of like, I am judgmental. because I'll see something. My first thought will be like, oh my goodness, how can somebody vote for that? This is so terrible. And through my lens, my first thought is just like, who is voting for these people? And then I'm like, okay, well, I do know people who are. And then I'm just like, oh my goodness, that makes me feel like such a terrible person. And so it does a lot of internal work around trying to And I think all of us want to conclude that we're a good person. So the easy thing to do is just be like, well, I'm a good person. And then it's easier to devalue other people. And I don't want to be somebody who devalues myself. I don't want to be somebody who's devaluing other people. But really, when I'm really honest, what's so... scary about these kinds of relationships, Lisa, is how much the judgment is happening when it's not even like you and me together. So I was thinking about this and I was like, you and I have had four or five interactions. They have all been amazing. And I study relationships and I look at like that four to like, we have to have five to one positive emotions in a relationship to keep a relationship healthy. And if I were just judging it on years of my interactions, I would be like, we have got that five to one down. But what's so damaging to that ratio is if I'm judging you behind the scenes, if I'm having negative thoughts, or if I leave a conversation feeling tired because we are filtering ourselves, then it's like suddenly we're like bringing this negativity into the relationship that has nothing to do with you and has nothing to do with our dynamic and our relationship. It's like all what's going on in my head. And I realized like I'm bringing the negative emotion into this relationship, and that could threaten the relationship to no fault of yours, just purely because I am processing my own judgments. And I read a really powerful quote, I'm sitting with it really a lot, and that is, the only reason we ever judge anybody is when we're trying to reinforce something in our own identity. And I've been really, really sitting with that and just being like, okay, so why is this so important to reinforce this identity? And what is the And so, yeah, I have a lot of work to do. I realize that. Like, I know I don't, I'm very good at not showing up judging people externally, but I have the thoughts and I have to like kind of do the exercises to like release them and to transition them into something more beautiful. And I can get there and I can do it, but it's not my first thought. It's not my first instinct. So yeah, one of the really hard, and I hate to say all this to you because I'm like, one of the things I'm going to want to convince you of is like, I'm not going to judge you. I'm going to accept you. I want to be a safe place for you. And here I have to confess up front, like I will have judgmental thoughts and I will, I will have these things. And so that's one of the really hard things about this for me is like, that's one of the big downsides is I can see why it's easier to be in relationship. If you just don't feel judgmental about what people are doing, you know, but that's not anything about the person or the relationship that's on me.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Well, you said it so beautifully. And I appreciate that you brought up this sort of self-awareness and the inner work that you would need to do in order to let go of judgment because you spelled it out that the judgment comes from something within yourself that needs to identify with a certain belief or issue or political candidate because there's some strong things there, right? To sort of hold on to. And I've experienced this in conversations when it comes up at dinner with new people where everybody's kind of feeling each other out and you're sort of tiptoeing around it and you're not really talking about it and then it starts to come up and then you can feel where it comes in in a wave with someone or maybe more than one person and then typically Lately, what I've seen is then people draw back, they change the subject or they don't go there, or they bring up another subject that leads you in a direction that supports like kind of what they're feeling. I'm thinking about for myself, when we had this coffee and it came up, the first you were surprised and that a lot of people are when they find out like who I'm literally gonna go vote for is so like not important to me, but it is to some people. And the why behind that is so important complex that that's what i'm not willing to go into here because you know i still have a lot of protection around that and don't want to be attacked and i know what people are hearing about that over here so there's a lot that i just won't share until i feel safe with someone and you like from the get-go in that conversation you made me feel safe because you were genuinely and i want to emphasize that we're genuinely curious about that

SPEAKER_02 24:39

i am

SPEAKER_00 24:40

and i could feel that And I think that's the important part of us modeling this conversation, because for me, the downside is similar. And what I would want to do is like, you know, the downside is similar that we're going to be in this dynamic where we're like filtering that. Or if we decide to talk about it, it's going to be so like both of us trying to make sure the other person feels okay about their beliefs. But meanwhile, we have judgment. And you said not to be afraid of offending you. So I'm going to say this to you. I actually don't judge you. And it's okay that you judge me because it's okay. It actually is normal. It's human. And I would say what I also real, I don't think that I judge you because I actually have been, I've been all over the spectrum politically that I understand where you're coming from. Absolutely. And so because I've been there and I understand that, and I can also see where behind all the smoke and mirrors, we all want the same things. We really do. We want the truth. We want safety. We want belonging. We want security. We want to feel safe in this world, connected to each other. We want to, you know, you and I both want more love. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that they may not be comfortable talking about or that might not be a safe topic. And I do that with even people on both sides because there's division within division. So I know there's certain topics that I just need to wait until I feel safe talking about. And I just don't like talking about politics in general. I mean, I really don't. I don't enjoy that sense of having to explain or defend myself. I think there's so much more of a deeper truth for me that goes deeper Beyond that, I want to go here because I think it's important that we do. And it's also something that I don't really like talking about and I don't find it rewarding. You know, but it's important to do. It's kind of like recycling. It takes a little extra energy, but it's good for the planet,

SPEAKER_01 27:03

you know? So we both clearly can see where some of the exhaustion, some of the judgment, some of all the negative feelings kind of come up. And so it asks, it kind of begs the question, why do this then? It certainly is most people's modus operandus to just avoid the subject in general. For me, I think what's driving me and, you is to kind of talk about what is our ideal like would it feel best to both of us to say let's just not talk about this or would it feel better like we're going to name what we both think is the ideal and kind of see how far from each other they are or if we can kind of cast this dream and this vision and negotiate that and I think why it's worth doing that for me is kind of summarizing what we've been saying it's just having a better understanding of ourselves of each other of other people in this world, it's so much easier for me to not judge, quote, the other side if there's people I love and I know on the other side. That just fundamentally changes how I feel about that. So it becomes way less likely that I'm going to want to get rid of half the world because I'm like, those are people I love and I know and I want them here. And I also really idealistically don't necessarily want a relationship where certain things are off limits, where I feel like we're walking on eggshells with each other, where we feel like we have to not hit the landmines or something. And so, yeah, as we're kind of moving into what does the ideal relationship look like? If you could craft this, how much would we talk politics or would we not? Or what would feel like the right mix of things for both of us?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah. So since we're talking about you and I, and we both have a lot of intentionality with what we do, I think that we could create a safe space for open, respectful dialogue where we can share our our perspectives and work on what comes up for us, both with judgment and fear, all the stuff that you and I keep processing already. It's so beautiful that we've been sharing like, oh yeah, this is scary for me because, and I think that's the work that we all need to do. And then identifying where we're identified, because if we can all in this world start to let go a little bit of that identification and really seek to understand, yeah, that's going to create I think for you and I, like a space where we can role model, like how do you have this conversation? How can people have different viewpoints and still respect each other? And yeah, I think we can feel proud about this when we do it. You know, we can demonstrate that conversations can happen without damaging relationships and deepening those relationships by talking about what's coming up for both of us,

SPEAKER_01 29:53

you know? Like, but it's not a subject we really need to like go deep into, or do you like find yourself? Cause there's a little piece of me that's like, I don't need this to be like our relationship. Like we are the political opposite friends and that's why we're doing it. There's so much other stuff pulling us together that we've already loved and appreciated that had nothing to do with those politics. So I don't need this to be like some exercise in us, like having all these conversations. And I am genuinely curious and I do love the idea of getting outside of my own bubble. I do love the idea of having a friendship. Like when I think about the friendship triangle. I hate the idea like on the vulnerability side that there would be taboo subjects or things that we just can't talk about, or there's an elephant in the room that we're trying to avoid or, you know, just kind of this looming thing over us. So I do love the idea of being able to talk about it a little bit. I do want to hear your journey. I do want to hear how you got to where you are and what are some of the biggest issues that you're really passionate about. And I do want to show up with curiosity and, and see you and feel like you're in, I want you to feel like I know you in that way. Like it's not something that I don't care about. So yeah, kind of trying to find that line of like, I do want to have these conversations and I don't want it to be like the thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah. I'm going to answer that in two ways. One is to describe relationships I have with people who are voting for someone different. We talk about it. It's like very little, you know, but it's dropped in right when it matters. Like here's something that really matters to me. And this is why I really like what was said at that convention or, you This is why, you know, and I did this with you on an email where I said, here's something that just happened this week in the political arena that is huge for me because it actually, and, you know, I told you about how who I'm voting for is very layered and complex. And when you have like different things happening with other people joining the team of either candidate that impacts the whole different, everything changes, you know, it can either strengthen or weaken your position based on like who's supporting that candidate who's what's going to happen what are they promising etc and ultimately it's about who do we think is actually lying to us versus telling us the truth and we come from different places on that but i think that when it really matters is when i would want to bring it up like i might share with you like this came up for me today where i felt someone judging me because i'm of a certain gender and that should matter more than certain things or, you know, I might bring up something that's happening to me around the politics that I need sort of to share with a friend, that kind of thing. That makes sense. Or we could also like just have a conversation where we kind of intentionally create an arena for us to both share and listen and really listen from that deeper place.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, I would do that. There's something in my stomach that goes, oh, that's a little scary because... And what I love about what we're doing is naming up front our goal. So we don't just like, we don't just fall into this, right? We're like choosing intentionally. And I think that changes the energy. I think that changes the container. It's like, we both are willing to show up and bring our biggest, best selves to the conversation. So neither of us are getting pulled into this at a Thanksgiving dinner table unexpectedly or unwillingly. It's like two people choosing to say yes. And I'm choosing ahead of time kind of our ground rules, if you will. What do you need from me? to feel the safest going forward, having these conversations? What can I do in the most meaningful way?

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah, I think the best way to answer that is to call out the qualities you're already exhibiting because that's helping me look at me. I'm here on a podcast talking about it. I never would have thought I would be doing this. I'm also not talking about who I'm going to vote for on the day of the election, because that feels very risky to me. I'm protective that way. It's a very personal decision, and it's even changed in the past five years for me, the way I would vote. So I think that I would say just continue to be who you are, and I'll call out what that is, which is you've been genuinely curious and compassionate, even though you've I own it. I know it's

SPEAKER_01 34:15

my judgment. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I do feel it and I do name it, but I definitely am clear that it's not your problem.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so it doesn't come across to me because, you know, I'm very sensitive. So I can feel when people think differently of me because of a decision I make or a policy I like or whatever, you can feel that, right? And I'm not getting that from you. So I would say for other people to just work on that, what are you so identified with? And for some people, they just want to be right. And I don't get that from you. I get that you, like me, want to explore friendship and collective wisdom and all these things that would make our world a better place. And I don't think we would have that conversation outside of respect, right? you know, deep respect for each other.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And some of the things I've seen in you that give me great courage and hope is like when you were saying at the, at the end of the day, we all want the same things and you were naming those values. And I think about that. It's like, we do all have so much commonality and I think it's so easy to focus on the part that's different and the strategy of how we get there or who's saying it better, who we resonate with. But I do love knowing that I can enter into a conversation with somebody who's capable of finding our commonality, of when we get into that, we can find what it is we're both really on agreement on. And I don't think that will be hard if we can both show up with that. And you do. You are somebody who just models the ability to see both sides of a situation. You model being able to find that commonality. And so that makes it a much safer place. You also model humility very well. I don't love entering into political conversations with people who just just are defending that all the way down the line. I think it's really important to show up. There is crazy on both sides. Like, and honestly, every policy put in front of us, none of them are perfect, you know, and there's like flaws in all of them and there's compromises in all of them. And to be able to like show up and be like, I don't need to defend. I don't need to explain. We can admit like, yeah, I don't like this part of my candidate and I don't like this part of that position. And I'm embarrassed by my party doing this thing. And to be able to kind of like name some of that just feels like there's an exhale in the conversation. It's like, Like, okay, we're not just like here on two different sides, like arguing this thing. And we can actually just kind of come together and find that commonality and accept that we're going to get there differently. I mean, it's like, there's so many other areas of life where we do this. Like people who have kids and don't have kids, you have to navigate these conversations about, like, I would never be like, that is just an off-limit subject. We are not going to talk about you having a child because I don't have one. Like, I want to be like, how's it going? And what's the stage of parenting like? And tell me how your child is doing. And like, I want to be curious. I want to know that side of you. I would never be like that. That's a taboo subject because we don't have that in common, you know? So yeah, being able to kind of like hold that space for just curiosity. I think the other thing, Lisa, that I would name, and I don't know if this feels like a fair thing to name, I'm open for you being like, I don't know, that's not a good expectation I have, but... I think if I were to feel 100% safe, it would be this shared belief that not only are we both accepted exactly where we are, but that we both work really hard at letting go of any desire to change the other. Yeah. And I don't know if we can, like, I don't know. I mean, I think a lot of people go in and be like, okay, I'm going to be really accepting. I'm going to be really kind, but like deep down, I hope that I can convince them or I hope I can change them or convert them. But I feel really sensitive to that energy. And I feel like if I felt at all, like you were hoping that deep down, down the road, I might change and maybe I will, but maybe you will. I mean, but like the energy of like trying to change the other person just feels icky to me. Like, I'm curious if you think we can have a friend where we are like, no matter what, even if you never change, like I still love you and I still want to know who you are and how you're doing. I

SPEAKER_00 38:05

actually love that. I think if we were like, you know, I'm an experienced designer too. So if I were going to design an experience that helps people heal this, I would put that into the kind of like, almost like the group rule. Like, Yeah, absolutely. someone's political affiliation or that they don't have one, which is closer to me, actually. But if you learn who someone's going to vote for you automatically, there's like this, oh, that's just a blank, blank, blank person that listens to blank, blank, blank news. And so and you get these little like stereotypes in your head. And I can say both sides of them, but I'm not even going to do that right now because I don't even want to add to that. But that doesn't help. Like you conjure up this image of what this person must be like because of who they're going to vote for. That does not help us. And it does not help you understand who that person is or what's important to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

I love that. So if you had wisdom for us going forward, Lisa, or a hope or a wish for us, whichever of those comes up for you, like what do you, you know, we have a new friendship. We don't have a lot of practice doing this. What advice would you give us?

SPEAKER_00 39:39

I would say if we can all start to work on on the inside. Like if we do the personal growth alongside our political discussions and really only having them when it feels safe, when it feels like you're coming from your heart and your genuine curiosity of the other person, which means you're gonna listen, And you're not trying to change them and you're not attached and you're not arrogant. If you can come from that place, it actually will transform. I believe it will absolutely transform our world and contribute to the healing and the wisdom of crowds and the political divide will soften. Right. If we can do that in our society. But I don't think everybody's ready for that. And I don't think. Trying to do that when you're not doing the inner work helps. I think it hurts.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Yeah. doing the thing that you're still, it doesn't mean you're fearless. It means you have the fear and you still do something. How do you know the difference? Is it just kind of looking at how the other person's energetically showing up and the intention?

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah, I think just tuning into that question right now, I think that we know when we can sort of sense when we might be attacked or when the other person has an agenda, like you were describing, like knowing someone wants to change your beliefs. Like you can feel that and that doesn't feel safe It's also very draining to be in a conversation like that. And we all have the right to protect ourselves from that. So I would just, I guess I would say, you know, when it's safe, like we can all feel that we know when someone genuinely cares about us. We know when they're trying to change us and we have every right to stop that conversation and leave and come back to it maybe when it feels safe again. But like, I think we need certain rules for this. And part of that guideline should be self-awareness and asking yourself questions of like, where am I attached? Where do I need to be right? Where am I holding on to like an identity rather than really caring about this other person?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

That's so beautiful. Well, Lisa, I wish for us... I am a little nervous, but I really am proud of us and hopeful. And I'm already proud of us in the future of having a conversation. I would love to have a conversation and find the time and the place where I do get to hear your story and where we do feel like we can both open this subject up and not just say this is a value to us to make this a safe subject, but let's prove to ourselves we can do that. And then I picture us being able to just create a whole bunch of other amazing, fun memories together, just you and me with our spouses, and just create a friendship that's based on so many other things where this becomes one thing that's not a big elephant in the room or a big taboo that we can kind of come and visit every once in a while. But I also look forward to just creating so many other wonderful memories with you and continuing to deepen our friendship.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Ditto. I feel the same way. Thank you so much for inviting me and being courageous with me. And I'm very proud of us as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

This is great. Yay. Yay. Oh, that leaves me feeling hopeful and Thank you, Lisa, for your willingness to come on and have a conversation I would guess neither of us have ever had before with other people. And it's so powerful. It's important that all of us keep trying new ways and new things in our relationships when we believe that they will add value to our lives and to the world that we're trying to create here. So beautiful. When we can have like that meta conversation and you'll see my hands, I'm like going up higher where sometimes we get caught up in the specifics and the labeling and the othering. And if we can kind of go up a couple levels, we can be in this other place up here where we can have this conversation about hearing each other's best intentions and finding those shared common values and hearing us both state who we want to be in this world and the world that we want to live in. And up here, we find all these things that we draw to each other. We lean in. We're just like, yes, I feel that way too. Yes, I want to be in a world where we aren't siloed. Yes, I want to be in a world where we are able to do this. And we can hear that intention. And it makes it so much easier going forward when we come down that path into more specifics, we can remember that shared commonality up there. We can remember who we said we wanted to be up there. We can give each other the benefit of the doubt. And so, so beautiful for all of us to have conversations that are up higher bigger, kind of broader, kind of those meta conversations, because there's so much more we agree on when we're up there. There's so much more love we can feel when we're up there. And that can inform us and give us practice for when we come down into some of the more nitty and the gritty in all of our relationships. And so, Lisa, thank you so much. I know that when we have more specific conversations, I have this as proof in my body that you are somebody just so beautiful, so pure, and I can't wait truly to hear your own more specific journey. I think for all of us, we haven't had great modeling on this subject of politics. We haven't had it, honestly, in friendships in general, all that well in a plethora of ways. Many of us didn't have that great modeling from family members or parents. Sometimes we kind of had some good TV shows or perhaps a movie here and there. But when you think about it, where are we getting our pictures of what relationship looks like and what conversations we're supposed to be having and how we're supposed to do those conversations and how we express love to each other? And so most of us are kind of left just replicating what we've seen or kind of figuring it out ourselves. And I think about how sad that is. And when you go more specific to politics, the modeling we've had is truthfully quite terrible. I think about like TV shows and they're just, you know, basically that's where we say talking heads. They're there to have a few seconds of a sound bite. And so they have to be super convincing and have their facts down. And they're just kind of, they're in debate mode a little bit, if you will. And they're like just trying to short, to speak in short sentences and get their point across and be strong and entertaining and all the things. I mean, none of us want to sit down and have a conversation around a dinner table in that format. And then we might have some memories of sitting around certain family big tables, Thanksgiving tables, or being at some rallies or some events or some gatherings where either we saw the worst, where we saw people fighting and criticizing each other, or where we were around people who just believed like we did. And so you can hear the energy where you go, you know, just start talking bad about other people. Like, how could they think that? How do other people not know this? How are they not doing this? And we start being in a conversation where we're judging and kind of putting down the other side. None of this is how any of us want to show up in our friendships. None of us want to be talking heads. None of us want to be in a debate. None of us want to be like in a critical situation where we're just putting other people down. And yet we haven't had great modeling on this. I think back maybe because Lisa was just referencing Rwanda and the genocide, and I can talk about that in a second. But one of the other things I did when I was in Rwanda is we went... through the jungles looking for the silverback gorillas. And we had to hire several security guards and people who were guides and they had machetes and they were like bushwhacking us through the jungle to go help find these families of gorillas. And it was one of the most amazing things. And yet, because we're not in a zoo, we can't just walk down a paved road and see the gorillas there and be like, oh, they're beautiful. We had to go to where they were at. And so there wasn't a paved road. There I think of that now as that metaphor sounds so apropos for those of us who are trying to do politics and friendships is we almost have to bushwhack a new way of being with each other. And that means it's going to be a lot harder of work. That means you've got people ahead of you who just have to take those machetes and be chopping down vines and trying to clear a path. And it's not going to be a pretty path because they're just doing quick and dirty and we're just trying to get people through. The most amazing thing about a path, though, is the more we walk it, the more people who follow us walk it, the more that eventually becomes a well-worn path. And so I don't know of how you feel, but I feel like most of us are looking around at the political landscape and saying, this feels gross. This is not the world I want to live in. Everything is so divided. I don't think most of us want to live in a world that's this divided, that has this much conflict, that is this mean. And yet, we are going to have to find a new way if that's not the world we want. We're going to have to bushwhack new paths because what we're going to be tempted to do is replicate what's being modeled to us. What we're going to be tempted to do is take the easy route and think that when we show up in our friendships that we need to debate, that we need to win. We're going to make the mistake of thinking that we need to have all of our facts down and that we just have to be ready to convince. We're going to make the mistake of saying hurtful things like we hear others doing, but we're going to have the opportunity here to say, you know what? This isn't the world I want to live in. So I'm not going to keep walking the same tired roads. And I know we can't all control what's happening out there, but we absolutely can control what's happening in our little corner of the world. And so what you're witnessing me trying to do imperfectly, but nonetheless, is saying, I don't want to just look around and say, I don't want to live in a divided world, but I have to personalize that to myself and say, Are my friendships a reflection of that? Am I practicing the integration in my little world that I want to see in the big world? Because how silly for me to just sit here in my little world, in my little silo, in a safe, little, comfortable friend group that all looks like me and has little group think, and then criticize the rest of the world for being divisive. If I'm not actively contributing to uniting us than I am just participating in this smaller version. Nonetheless, we may not be the ones who are out there on the forefront, but we are contributing. Everything we say, everything we do is either energy toward more united, more connected, more loving, or it's energy towards more divisive, more critical, and more mean. And going back to that Rwanda conversation, I've walked that genocide museum. I've seen those memorials. Many of you have been to Holocaust museums. You know the history. You know what humanity is capable of. So we know when we look at the spectrum, we know that on one end of the spectrum, and granted, I hope to God, it's an extreme spectrum that we never see and hit again, where there's a genocide, where there's war, where we turn on each other and where we think the other side is terrible, so terrible that we need to get rid of them. And we might not be there now, and this might feel too extreme. And yet, if my very actions in my day-to-day life are continuing to contribute to divisiveness and insulting, then I am feeding that path. And so I really, really want to be somebody who's enlarging my ability to love, who loves the other more quickly, who can show up and practice greater love in this world. And so I put out the invitation to all of us Let's bushwhack together. Let's start by practicing on our friends, on our family. Let's trust the people around us are good. Let's reinforce that. Let's remind ourselves of that. Let's fall in love again with people who believe differently from us. Let's build those bridges. Let's reach out. Let's put hands across the proverbial aisles. Let's be the people that we are mad at Congress people for not being able to be or to do or our politicians. But let's not just... Put it all on them. Let's own some of it for ourselves. And so last week we were talking about how important it is to put positive emotions into our relationships, that every relationship needs to, we need to feel loved by that person. We need to feel accepted. We need to feel like we enjoy each other. We can't be adding criticism and insults and demeaning behaviors and expect a good relationship to be the outcome. So we know the power of positive emotions. And now we have to build upon that with consistency. And you can go back to episode one of my podcast if you want a refresher on the three requirements of relationship as we're building up this triangle. But what you saw with me and Lisa today is we practiced positive emotions. We practiced holding that space of like assuming the best in each other and stating our desired intentions to know each other and promising who we wanted to be for each other. So all of that left a positive feeling. I got done with the conversation and was like, yes, I want more of her. But now comes the hard work of backing that up with consistency because a one-time amazing conversation isn't enough. We've all had moments where we've done one thing really well. But if we, next time we get together, go back to our old ways of doing things, it kind of wipes it out a little bit. Because when it comes to consistency, we remember how somebody is over the long run. We remember the pattern. We don't remember the one-offs as much as we remember the feeling overall. And so my one-time amazing conversation would quickly get overshadowed if I turned and started becoming a different person and started insulting and being critical and acting like she was wrong and I'm the right one and I need to fix her and I need to give her all my sources and all the things that we're so often tempted to do. Instead, now we have this positive emotion and my invitation to myself is to say, okay, how do I make this reliable? How do I turn this one-time experience into something that's repetitious? How do I make this a well-worn path? How do I make this a well-worn path? And so when it comes to consistency, I think part of it is what Lisa and I are exploring is how much do we really want politics to be a part of our relationship? And we don't want it to be the whole thing. And so part of our consistency is going to be how do we keep inviting each other to go do fun things, have meaningful conversations, to have some fun events, to still laugh, to go have a good time, to have a whole bunch of other amazing conversations. So part of our consistency is putting politics... in perspective, where it doesn't overshadow, where it's not the big thing, where it's not an elephant we're avoiding, but neither is it the big one and only subject. And so our task is to create a fun relationship where we get together in a variety of ways and talk about a lot of different things. Another part of our consistency will be to also figure out how to do the politics in a way where we continue to practice the very values we've stated up front that matter to us. So how can I consistently... be somebody that she can trust? How do I help be somebody that she can rely on? How do I practice being the person where I honor her boundaries, where I ask her how she's feeling, where I make sure the space is safe for her, where I follow up and ask her if it feels safe to her, if there's anything I can do that would help make it more safe for her? What can I do so that she can trust me going forward, that this is a pattern and not a one-time thing? Because all of us want to be in safe and reliable relationships. We want to be in relationships where we have that pattern, where we know that it's reliable, where we know that the one thing that we might not agree on is not going to overshadow, and where we eventually build up skills where we know that that one thing that we might not agree on, we can be vulnerable enough and we can show up and trust ourselves. We can build trust as a relationship, that we can have those conversations and absolutely not just survive them, but come through with greater understanding. greater compassion for each other. So boy, the metaphor of bushwhacking and creating a path just kind of is rising up in this little conversation here for all of us as we might be trying to start new patterns, change our habits, add more love to our lives. My invitation to all of us is that we be gentle with ourselves as we're experimenting. This doesn't come naturally. It hasn't been modeled to us. So let's bushwhack for good and let's trust that as we keep being consistent in our lives of who we want to be and how we want to show up, that as we keep offering our best, that we keep practicing new things, where we change the beliefs in our head that we rise when somebody else falls, where we don't feel like it's a teeter-totter, where we have to make ourselves feel better by pushing someone else down, where we remind ourselves on a consistent basis that I can have values, I can have vision, I can be excited about certain candidates, certain beliefs, I can be passionate. And that doesn't mean I need to push somebody else down in order to have those views. And so I need to practice doing that consistently. in my own head and in my friendships and then trust that as I get better and better at doing that in my little corner of the world, that it will make a bigger difference in the big world that we live in. So thank you for joining me. Thank you for being another idealist, another person who knows that we would rather live in a world that is more connected, not less connected, and who takes responsibility for helping bring that connection about. It has been such an honor, such an honor to have you in this conversation today. I hope it raised a few questions for you, made you think of a few people in your life that maybe you will reach out to, maybe thinking through who we want to be in this world and how we, in our own little small ways, can practice being the very thing that we want to see all around us. Next week, we are ending the series with a final conversation I'm inviting a couple of my friends on where we are going to talk about how Even when we've thought we've been on the same page, why don't we talk politics? So many of us choose maybe because as we've looked at in this series, talking about politics can feel hard. And so, so many of us have chosen to just say, you know what, in my relationships, we just don't talk politics. And that's kind of a big policy a lot of us take on. And next week, a couple of my friends and I are going to look deeper at that unspoken policy and say, Is that the right way to go? Or are we missing something when we don't do that? And so we're going to have a conversation about is silence really the best way to go in a relationship? So I hope that you join us for that. And our goal each week is just to help us think bigger thoughts and open up to a little bit more love, maybe make our circles a little bit wider, maybe do a little bit better of a job of inviting people in, maybe doing a better job of deepening intimacy with a few people in our lives, but above all, building the relationships in our lives that are more fulfilling. You've been listening to Frentimacy. May we all find our way to more fulfilling friendships.