Episode # 64 Pray For The Horse And Quit Yelling At Your Bird Dog

We chase the old-school idea of pairing a horse and a bird dog for Arizona quail hunting, then get honest about how much that partnership depends on our calm, not our intensity. We share what Zuni the mustang mare teaches us about trust, how pointers pick up our emotional cues, and why steadiness is the real training advantage. 
• building trust with a horse through slow, consistent handling 
• noticing how tone, posture, timing, and stress shape animal behavior 
• praying for the horse as a way to slow down and show up better 
• English pointer history and why the breed fits Western quail country 
• practical leadership principles that apply to horses and bird dogs 
• why horseback quail hunting is both beautiful and hard work 
• introducing dogs and horses safely through controlled exposure 
• keeping sessions short, sustainable, and repeatable 
Help further our work. Please consider making a tax-deductible gift. Visit us online at azquilltoday.com and be sure to follow us on social media for the latest information and updates. So then remember to get outside.

Connect with us: Email us at ryan@azquailtoday.com —we'd love to hear from you! 
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Transcript

Welcome And Today’s Big Idea

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to Arizona Quail Today, your go-to podcast for all things quail hunting in Arizona. We're dedicated to educating and inspiring the next generation of quail hunters. A big thanks to our supporters and proud partners. Thanks for tuning in, and now let's dive in today's program.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Here we go. That is an oldie but Stephen Curtis, chapman. Oh man, that's funny. Saddle up your horses. So here's what we're doing today. Calm in the saddle. What horses and bird dogs teach Arizona Quail hunters. So this is going to be an interesting uh episode. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Arizona Quail Today. This is Ryan, and today we're talking about pairing that feels almost timeless in the uplands. A good horse and a good bird dog and a hunter trying to become steady enough to deserve both. Whoa, what happened to my effect? Okay. I'm playing around. I'm in another studio today. So anyway, what we're gonna do, uh, this episode is gonna be a good one. This is this episode is really more than gear or technique. It's about the kind of person uh you have to become when you're working with animals uh that read you probably far more than you realize, and honestly could admit. Horses do it and bird dogs do it too. So if you spend any time around both, you start to realize they are constantly responding, not just to your commands, but to your tone, your timing, your posture, and whatever emotional kind of atmosphere that you're portraying in the given day that you are in. I mean, my dogs can read me, and uh, this is why there's so many therapy dogs. This is why, you know, um training matters in how you approach a dog. They can read you, they can smell fear, uh, they're pretty sharp

Zuni The Mustang And Trust

SPEAKER_00 3:19

critters, and so pretty amazing creatures. So horses are the same way. I I had to come to that realization um that did not come easy for me, and it really came through I grew up with horses, but I recently purchased a horse. Uh the horse's name is Zuni. And may maybe you've seen a picture of her um about to go ride her here shortly. Um, but I'm training her to be a barrel racing horse. Uh I brought this beautiful little paint. Uh she's a Mustang mare. She has an absolute presence from the beginning when you just see her. She's tough, she's alert, she carries herself really, really well. Um I really am grateful for her. Uh there's a history with her on her body, though. Like she's got all these different brand marks because in the in the in z in in the Zuni culture, I guess, um they would uh brand the horse in order to claim the horse, and then whoever had the most brands or the biggest brand would win. And so um she's got some trauma, obviously. And so in this episode, what I want to do is I want to talk to you about Zuni. I want to talk to you about the horse, I want to talk to you about dog training and all that. So let's start with Zuni. Trust with her was really not automatic, it it really was built slowly. I mean, she didn't come in super excited, she was pretty nervous. We got her uh uh from a horse trader uh and seller, uh uh whatever you call them, uh out of Prescott, and uh we could barely load her in the trailer, but we got her in. And days late later, it felt like things regressed. Like she did well when we first bought her, and she was in her hometown territory or in her home pin advantage, and then uh we brought her down to Phoenix, and boy, oh boy, it took some time. She actually bucked off my daughter, my daughter broke her uh collarbone, and so that just was quite a delay, and so I mean this process has kind of changed me though, but I I realized trust again was not going to be automatic with her, it had to be built slowly, and some days it felt like every inch of progress was earned one calm moment at a time, and the process kind of changed me. It's when I discovered with Zuni uh was simple to say and hard to practice. It's that, listen, when I slowed down, she improved. When I got quieter inside, she got softer outside. It's like when I stopped trying to force a result and focused on being clear, consistent, and patient, the work just got better. And what surprised me the most is that it carried over into everything else. And even in the arena, I found that when I showed up in a peaceful frame of mind, I made better decisions, rode more smoothly, and performed better with her. In fact, one of the guys at our church said, like, you should try to just pray for your horse. And I'm like, What? And they said, No, I'm serious. These are Bible-believing, like, country, like Cave Creek, like cowboys. And they're like, Yeah, just pray for your horse. And and and just like, why not? If you believe in God and God is sovereign over creation and he made everything, made that horse, you know, then pray for that horse. So I started praying for my horse, man. It was pretty crazy, and she just got better. And I'm not saying she's awesome right now, but boy oh boy, since I've kind of slowed down and leaned into her, it's it's gotten a lot better. Um, a lot of horsemen have said, you know, some version of this, you know, they might say, you know, when they're peaceful and they have a peaceful frame of mind that they're they perform better.

Fear Scent And Emotional Cues

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Um, but modern research gives language to what riders have observed for a long time. Horses are highly responsive to human emotional cues. Research ported uh reports that that horses uh exposed only to the odor associated with human fear showed more fear-related behavior and higher heart rates were uh less willing to engage with unfamiliar uh people. In other words, the horse may be responding to you uh before you even tighten the rein or say a word. And so, I mean, I just find that so true. I think the horse sizes you up before you even like ride. So that horse is looking for all your cues. And I think that relates in the dog world too. So once that clicked for me with a horse, I started noticing the same kind of pattern with my bird dog. I run an English pointer, and anybody who has spent time behind a good pointer knows there's something special there. That these dogs are built for big country, they carry intensity and they'll carry some chaos. A lot of speed without waste and style that just makes everything look awesome. The modern pointer traces back to the Spanish uh pointing dogs and was later refined in Britain in the athletic hunting dog we recognize today. The development matters because the breed was shaped for exactly the kind of work upland hunters value range, uh getting out there, endurance, being able to run bird sense, and a steady, steady point. I think for Arizona quail hunters, uh, this matters a lot, whether you're you're chasing gambles quail in rough country or trying to cover broad spaces where a skilled quail can test both your legs and your patience. You get a pointer, uh, English pointer. This dog is built for the assignment. Uh, the breed's history is not just fun, it's it it's it's fantastic. It explains why these dogs move the way they do and they seem so naturally suited for it for Western bird hunting, in my opinion. The more I work with both a horse and a bird dog, I'm starting to see an overlap. Both animals, listen, are deeply aware of us. Both are capable of reading subtle cues, both become harder to manage when the handler is scattered, irritated, or rushed. I mean, this just makes sense. And both seem to settle when the human or the trainer in partnership becomes calm, clear, and predictable. I think at the end of the day, that horse, again, you gotta remember that is a that is a prey. It is a per it is prey, it is it is a afraid of a predator. And that horse needs the assurance of an apex predator, aka me, human being, you, and your dog. Your dog knows your apex, you're alpha, you're the alpha of the pack. You should be. And if your dog is owning and running you, then you're you got it all screwed up. Um, but there is a really cool, I think, um kind of overlap with dogs and and horses. This isn't just anecdotal. I think researchers have found that dogs can detect stress-related odors as well, just as I talked about with horses, um, from human scent, and they can sh they can sense stress, emotional state of expectations in the environment. So when hunters talk to talk about a dog getting weird or doing something screwy, many times it's because the handler is just too amped up. That is not only, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of kind of evidence for this kind of thing. So, you know, some people say your dog can smell fear. I think they're right. I think they're really right. Dogs can sense stuff. I mean, they are uh not the dullest tool in the tool shed when it comes to uh four-legged friends. Now it's worth being precise here. It is easy to overstate uh this and to say something like, your dog smells cholesterol, or your horse literally detects your hormones as if science were that simple. The stronger, more accurate way to say this, it would, I guess, would be like say something like horses and dogs can detect and respond to human emotional cues. And so um it just seems right. Research suggests odor is one of those channels through which this response happens, and that phrasing is more careful, but it's still powerful because it means your internal state is being is training our environment whether you acknowledge it or not. So next time you go to train your dog, make sure you're in a good space and place, and I would say same thing with horses, and I'm telling you, I this is what I'm finding with horses as well. So um stay calm uh when things go wrong. It's a training tool. Think about how often people try to fix an animal by increasing pressure when really it just needs a change of your internal temperature, like you need to relax. With a horse getting louder and rougher and more emotional, usually adds confusion and tension. It doesn't mean it's not always. There's times where I will increase the atmosphere, I will pull out a little popper and get that horse to move. And I I if that horse is gonna get uh honry with me, I will back that horse up and make that horse walk backwards because horses aren't designed to walk backwards and it's uncomfortable and they don't like it. And the same is true with dogs. If dogs mess with you, you make them repeat a process until they get it right. With a bird dog, you know, if every correction comes wrapped up in frustration, the animal's not just process uh processing the command, it's processing you. And when you make yourself harder to read, you also make the work harder to understand for the dog and everybody else. And so um this you know, that is why I think some of the oldest and the best training wisdom really keeps coming back to timing. Consistently, emotional control, pressure, and release works best when the release is clean and the pressure is not fueled by anger, repetition. Repetition works best when the cues stay consistent, correction works best when it's measured and fair, uh, whether the animal under you has four hooves or in the one in front of you has a high tail and cracking gait, the principle of similar leadership feels steady.

The Practical Magic Of Horseback

SPEAKER_00 15:31

And this is this is one of the reason the image of uh this mounted uh bird hunter has endured for so long, the horse and the dog pairing. It's not just some kind of romantic ideal, it's absolutely practical. Historically, pointing dogs in Europe and later in North America were developed for hunters covering uh country efficiently. And a combination of a horse and a dog made it possible to see more land, cover more ground, um, conserve the hunter's energy, and then let wide-ranging dog work its strength into big country, and that matters. For those of us in Arizona and a broader West, it matters as well. Western quail country, as you know, can be beautiful, but it's rugged and punishing. Ridges, washes, cactus, rock, distance, the heat can pile up. Uh, a horse can change that equation if you can handle the horse and a dog. I've not seen many people do it in Arizona. I'd like to be one. I don't know if that day is gonna come with this horse or not. I don't know. It's a lot to ask for a horse, and it's a lot of time and energy to load your horse up and uh do it. But I could only imagine how cool it would be. It could help a hunter move further with less fatigue, stay higher, uh, better visibility, conserve energy, uh, and really cover a ton of ground. And so, oh man, I don't know. That dream gets me. There's something awesome about that. The idea of hunting quail from a horseback in the backcountry, that'd be pretty spectacular. You have a good dog and a good horse. It feels old and it feels vintage, but boy oh boy, that's something I'm dreaming of. I'm telling you the truth. But there's also a danger in the dream if if it stays too cinematic, because I think reality of quail hunting with a horse um looks pretty awesome, but it's a ton of work. I mean, it would involve getting the trailer, getting the horse, getting the horse loaded in the trailer, and all that. Sometimes the easiest thing you can do is just pack up the truck and get in the truck with your dog and hit it. It's a little more simple, but I'm telling you, if I was out in quail country and had a horse property, boy, I'd just back ride up out of the gate and then just go and cover a ton of ground. If maybe if you're one of those guys that knows a guy, you know a guy, knows a guy who knows a guy who's doing that, dude. I'd love to talk to him. Seriously, that'd be so cool. But anyway, uh so I just wanted to talk to you about that, about working with horses, working with dogs. You know, this whole crossover is not so foreign. It it started a long, long time ago, back in Europe, with uh hunters getting on horses, running dogs, and then it's made its way over to the early American formation and and all that good stuff. I'll have to do a podcast with you on that sometime. But for today, I just want to talk to you about these this dog and this horse.

Getting Horse And Dog Comfortable

SPEAKER_00 19:03

So um the first step is getting the animals comfortable around one another. Uh, I've done this by I just bring my dog out when I'm feeding my horses. They're all around my horse all the time. And um the horse gets familiar with the dog, the dog gets familiar with the horse. And some horses can be uneasy around dogs, depending on their experience, but mine is thus far really pretty good. Happy's so funny. Jumped up on a barrel the other day, started licking the horse's face. Obviously, like the horse didn't just turn around and lick the dog, but they definitely like each other. So a horse, uh a horse and a dog, they're not as far off as you think. And and you do got to be careful if you got a crazy horse that likes to kick, and that can really bust up a dog pretty good. But I'll tell you, all the years I've had dogs growing up with horses for years and years, and we've had plenty, we've had plenty of dogs get kicked, but not one of them died. So there you go. I'm drinking some sweet tea right now. So um, yeah. Uh uh get the dog around the horse, get the horse around the dog. Let each animal learn each other. I think secondly, uh lower the emotional temperature in the whole process. These are lessons learned. I think too many handlers want the full picture immediately. The horse standing quietly, the dog like working beautifully around the horse, you know. I mean, it just doesn't happen like that. Like you gotta be far more, I would say, patient in the process. And then uh, I'd say the third step is the hardest one because it's less about the animals than the hunter, work on your own personal well-being. Learn how to notice when you're rushing, when you're kind of multitasking, when you're not really paying attention to the dog. I mean, I've even caught myself listening to podcasts, listening to news, and just letting it blare while I'm like working with my dog or my horse. And then I realize like my dog and my horse are picking up on that, and they're probably thinking, like, you're not fully paying attention to me, and what the heck is that other noise? So I'd say pay attention to yourself, you know. So the dog will notice, the horse will notice, if both animals are reading you and your self-control and your focus, then you it may work really, really well as you develop this. But man, I mean I think there's just some really cool, like I said, some overlap. You know. Um you know, that may sound overly like reflective. For a hunting podcast, but I I don't think it is. I think the uplands have always been more than just bird numbers in a bag. I think they expose character, process, patience, an appreciation, uh, you know, and so most quail hunters that I know are running dogs. And if you're running dogs, then you're usually working with your dogs. And so I I hope that this helps kind of broaden the picture of being a caregiver for your animals. This is part of what I love about bird dogs in the first place. I think a good pointer does not just help you find quail, a good pointer teaches you what to what uh what to watch for, how to wait, how to appreciate the discipline and the beauty. And at a horse into the picture, I think these lessons just deepen. The horse asks you whether you're grounded. Um, are you steady? Are you focused? The dog asks you whether you're clear or not, and the horse will actually do the same thing. You're leading and guiding a horse. The horse wants to know, do you know where you're going? Because if you don't, I'll take you where I want to go. And that doesn't usually end well. And maybe this is the crossover between horses and bird dogs and why it feels so natural once you've lived inside it. At first glance, they seem like two totally separate worlds. One is the world of reins and saddles and miles, and the other's is the world of scent, scent cones and points. But underneath both, I think there's a relationship. Underneath both is trust. Do they trust you? Underneath both is a challenge of becoming the kind of handler you can bring steadiness into motion. Uh, the history of both animals almost seems to underline that partnership. Mustangs became the icons of the American West because of their toughness, their adaptability, ability to live in demanding country, and their ancestry is tied to horses uh brought by the Americas, uh, brought to the Americas by the Spanish. And pointers developed from earlier um Spanish dogs into British refined celebrated athleticism and bird work. So different species, different stories, both shaped by terrain, purpose, and for long human desire to move through country with an animal partner that extends our own abilities. I think that's a kind of a cool idea there. That is really what makes, I think, horseback quail hunting such a cool idea, so compelling. It's not just that it looks good, it's that it could bring some history together, function and beauty and power. A hardy horse beneath you, a dog driven out in front of you. Man, that's I'm dreaming. Quail somewhere ahead, a hunter trying to keep his mind and keep quiet enough not to disrupt the ego, the entire system. So, I mean, that's another thing. I don't even have my horse uh, you know, gun broke yet. I mean, shooting off a horse or shooting, you know, just getting off a horse and shooting, and then your horse not running away. I mean, that's another thing. I'm early in the podcast. I'm early, I'm not early in the podcast. I'm early in the journey, is what I'm trying to say. So it really makes this idea of horseback quail hunting just super compelling for me, though. The the the the challenge of it. So for anybody listening who has the same dream, here's some encouragement. It it can happen. I many of you guys probably heard of Darrell Smith. He does this kind of stuff. The guys down in Georgia, they get on horses and they go. I mean,

Steadiness Beats Intensity Every Time

SPEAKER_00 26:09

it's gotta be a cool thing. I'd love to do it one day. Hardy horse beneath you, a driven dog out in front of you, quail somewhere ahead. Pretty cool, pretty cool. So what do we do now? I'd say start with obedience and get some exposure. If you haven't been around a horse, get around a horse. If you've uh wanna try to do the crossover, start exploring, man. Let me know. Let me know if you got your dogs around the horse. You're already doing this kind of stuff. I think it'd be kind of cool. So, I mean, in any kind of training, whether dog or horse are doing both at the same time, which I did uh the other day, by the way. I called a woe command and got my horse to stop and got my dog to stop. Whoa, what a crossover, huh? Yeah, the dog, the horse trainers were the dog trainers. So keep your session short and sustainable, short and successful if possible. And remember that one of the main things both animals need from you is not your intensity, it's your steadiness. They need you to be steady. That has probably been the biggest lesson for Zuni and I. Um, and is one of my point pointer keeps reinforcing uh that patience is not passive. Calm, calm is not weakness, and slowing down is not the same as lowering standards. Sometimes it's the fastest way in real progress, and it gives the animal something trustworthy to respond to, is just a steady person. And so, yes, I still think about that picture of riding through Arizona quail country with a good English pointer and finding some birds ahead. Uh the saddle, I I think there is something deeply right and romantic in some regard, or nostalgic might be a better word. It's a it is a dream, but I also think there's real beauty of that picture. And uh it's just not the aesthetics alone. I think there's something pretty amazing, just working with a horse and a dog. It requires the hunter with patience, attentiveness, emotional control, and respect for the animals and for the land navigating through it. So I don't know. And maybe that is the takeaway for today. Horses and bird dogs do more than just help us hunt or train or compete. They reveal who we are, the kind of handler we are, the kind of trainer we are, the kind of person we are. Whoa, seriously. Okay. I'm not joking. They reveal what kind of person you are. They show us what kind of energy we got we bring into the partnership, they confront our impatience, they reward our consistency, and if we let them, they can make us better. Not just more effective in the field, but better in the quiet, in the deep parts of who we are. Wow. All right. Thanks for listening. Till next time.

Support The Show And Get Outside

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Thanks for listening in. Help further our work. Please consider making a tax-deductible gift. Visit us online at azquilltoday.com and be sure to follow us on social media for the latest information and updates. So then remember to get outside.