Job Offer, Raise, or Promotion? Here’s How to Negotiate All Three

In this episode of the Cybersecurity Mentors Podcast, we break down how to negotiate with confidence — whether you’re reviewing a job offer, asking for a raise, or chasing that next promotion.

Drawing from years of leadership experience, they share real-world stories about what hiring managers actually think during negotiations, how to spot red flags in a job offer, and how to build leverage the right way.

You’ll learn:

• The three things to evaluate before accepting any offer — fit, growth, and lifestyle
• How to flip the script and interview the company back
• Why keeping receipts of your wins is essential before asking for a raise
• What to do when you’re given more responsibility without more pay
• How to use tactical empathy (inspired by Never Split the Difference) to win negotiations without losing relationships

Whether you’re a cybersecurity analyst or a future CISO, this episode will help you get paid what you’re worth — and do it with professionalism and confidence.

Chapters

• 0:00 Why Most People Don’t Negotiate
• 1:07 Sponsor Message: ACI Learning
• 1:27 Today’s Focus And Ground Rules
• 2:31 Reviewing A Job Offer: Fit, Growth, Life
• 5:04 Do Your Homework On The Business
• 8:55 Culture Checks And Red Flags
• 11:35 Ask Better Questions To Stand Out
• 13:44 Salary Ranges, Research, And Timing
• 17:24 Pressure Tactics And Red Flags
• 18:24 How To Ask For Wiggle Room
• 20:02 Get Offers In Writing And Compare
• 21:19 Playing Offers Carefully
• 24:24 Negotiate Beyond Salary
• 26:00 Network Inside The Target Company
• 29:32 Asking For A Raise: Bring Receipts
• 32:02 Market Data And Fair Pay
• 34:18 Define Your Ask And Timing
• 36:10 Extra Work Without Extra Pay
• 38:22 Tactical Empathy And Negotiation
• 40:15 Promotions: Communicate Early
• 43:15 Stand Out Without Burning Out
• 47:15 Reliability, Ownership, And No Drama
• 50:34 Closing, Swag, And Community Links

Transcript

Steve: 0:00

Most people still don't negotiate, but when they do, the odds are actually pretty good. Glassdoor found that around 54% don't negotiate or didn't negotiate their most recent salaries. But in 2024, a survey showed that 82% of full-time workers who asked for a raise got it.

Speaker: 0:25

Could you teach me? First learn stand, then learn fly. Make your rule, Daniel son, not the mind.

Speaker 3: 0:33

I know what you're trying to do. I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. What is the most inspiring thing I ever said to you? Don't be an idiot. Change my life.

Speaker 1: 0:56

We aren't here to waste your time with buzzwords. In IT and cybersecurity, what you know and what you can do makes all the difference. We are ACI Learning. Training built for novices and pros who need measurable results. Hands-on labs, real-world checks, courses that get you certified and ready for what's next. Build confidence. Strengthen defenses. Achieve more. Visit acilearning.com/slash simply cyber to learn more.

Steve: 1:27

Welcome back to the Cybersecurity Mentors Podcast. And today we're going to talk about how to negotiate three different things. And those are when you are reviewing a job offer, when you are asking for a raise, or you are working or asking for a promotion.

John: 1:45

So just a quick note this is not, we are not giving legal advice or financial advice, right? We're a bunch of bozos uh on the internet that you know do your homework, right? If you don't get the raise, then don't cut don't come after us. Uh but we have experience, you know, we we've been in the game and um we understand if we were if you were coming to us to ask us for a raise, what we would like to see. So I think you know, we have a good perspective on the things that we could help you as you prepare and look at job opportunities or look for a raise in your existing opportunity in your existing role, um, what that what you should bring to the table, right? What kind of things you should be prepared for. And that's what we're gonna jump into. So first reviewing the job offer. Let's talk about that, Steve.

Steve: 2:37

Yes. So when you are about to accept a job offer, there's a lot of things that come to mind, right? Maybe you are someone who you've been putting in the work, it's been taking days, months, you name it. Days, weeks, months, you name it. And finally, you're getting the interview, you're going through the process, and you get the job offer. And you are just so excited, you just want to accept it right then and there on the spot. And that is the worst thing you can do. Now you might say, Steve, what's what's wrong with you? Like, I've been working for this, I've been bleeding, sweating, like I'm gonna take it. Take a step back, take a breather, because not all jobs are made the same. And depending on what you'll be doing, you should really take a look at how much you will be making. And not just that, but it comes down to three different things. The fit, right? Are the problems that they need you to fix? Are they problems that you actually want to be working on? From the brief interactions that you've had with the hiring manager, the team members, or anyone else that interviewed you. Um, do you feel comfortable working with that group? Do you see yourself working with that group? Second, growth. Is there a possibility for you to grow in this organization, right? What does an analyst do compared to a senior level individual? Is there is there a path for growth? I mean, you don't just want to jump on an organization and have nowhere to go. And then third is life, your lifestyle, right? Is this remote? Is this hybrid? Is this in office? Is there an on-call uh rotation? Um, are you are you gonna travel? I mean, who knows? There are just so many things that you need to take the time to review and figure out and make sure that they match with what you what you need and what you're looking for.

John: 4:41

Yeah, so um I've got stories for these things. So one thing, one that stands out is a lot of times when I was becoming you know a young guy and I was like, I'm just looking to to get to the next big thing, is I really somebody would say, Well, what does the company do? And I was like, I don't care what they do, right? I mean, they I it's a it's a job, and I think I can do the job and it pays more. Um, but I really learned later, I was like, you really should understand what that what their business is and what the company is about and what their goals are, right? Everybody's goals are usually businesses are like get bigger, make more money, whatever, make more things. But like I just kind of got lucky in some places that I went to, and I was like, oh wow, this I didn't know anything about this company. Uh like, for example, the Torrington company, which became the Tempkin company. Like they are bearing and steel manufacturer. Like I had no clue what that meant and what they were doing and why they were doing it. But and then I went into logistics in that company. I had no idea about logistics, but in IT, you know, you're like, well, you can do IT for anything. But if I had known what I was getting into, I might have been like, oh wow, I didn't know that, yeah, you are IT, but you're IT for that whole arm of the logistics warehouse. And you're gonna have to learn, guess what? IT is not abstracted to from the business, it really isn't. It helps run the business. So you need to know that I like I didn't know going into it that I was gonna need to learn about a warehouse management system and about uh barcodes and scanning and label printers and all those things. I just thought, oh, it's IT, it's IT, no big deal. And quickly learned that no, you you need to understand that business. So when we talk about fit, you need to do your homework and imagine yourself in that company and what the company does. And if you don't like that what the company does, then then that's part of the fit, right? You need to understand that. And another incident when I went and applied for a job at that company. This is I'd been there about five years, and I was so excited. I was like, oh, this uh this company sounds amazing. It was a kayak manufacturer closer to home. I was like, kayak manufacturer, that that I mean, these are all gonna be a bunch of adventure junkies. Maybe I get a discount on a kayak. I walk, I walked in to to the interview, I sat down, and the guy who was interviewing me was the guy who it was for his position. He's like, Yep, you're I'm interviewing for somebody to take over from me. I'm leaving because I can't stand this company, and today's my last day.

Steve: 7:27

Wow.

John: 7:28

So they were being honest. This guy was like, he's like, I'm just gonna tell you, I hate working here. Wow. Um, how do you what do you say next? Why I'm still really excited about this opportunity. Wow. Like, uh, okay, you know, like, well, I'm could you tell me why? You know, what what is it about it, right? And so did get more like the unfiltered uh version of what the company was about. And I was like, man, fortunately, I was still, I was like, well, maybe he's just a bad apple, right? In my head, you're like, maybe he's just the guy, he's the problem, right? But then I could just tell there's something going on with the culture and the the business, and they ended up closing that facility down. They didn't move, they're still around, but anyway, so that whole fit part of it, there's a honeymoon piece lens on this. When you go interview, you're a rosy, everybody, you know, you're on your best behavior. All your people you meet with are on their best behavior, they're gonna tell you all the great things. If they like you, they're gonna really try to convince you to come. Yeah, you know, yeah. So you do need to peel back the layers and try to find out look, no place is perfect. Nobody. Yeah, I've never worked at a perfect place. So what if they're honest with you and they're a good group that you're interviewing with, ask them questions like what are the things you that you don't like? You know, what are the things that are not as good as you would think they would be? Oh, this policy, that policy, or we don't get this, or you know, whatever. And it's fine, it's just data that you need to consider and don't just look at the number and think, man, I'm gonna be making this much more money. Well, you get there, you might be making more money, but you get there and you hate life, it's gonna suck. And you're gonna be wishing you didn't do it.

Steve: 9:21

Absolutely. I think one of the biggest things I try to advise people that we work with. Um, I mean, I get it. Right now, the times are tough. So people are super excited to get a callback, super excited to get an interview. And if they're making you an offer and you've been waiting for months, you're you're gonna want to jump on that, right? Because you don't know when the next opportunity might show up, or if you have to wait for an additional six, seven, eight months. So you're like, man, I'll take whatever they give me. And in some situations, look, if that's how you want to take it, I respect that. But I would I if I can help it, I wouldn't do that. And part of the problem is when someone goes to interview, you kind of forget that yes, they are interviewing you, but you need to interview them. It's the same thing, right? They need someone, and they obviously think you are at that level to even spend time interviewing you, talking to you. So use that to your advantage, use that as negotiating power, right? You don't know how many schmucks they went through before they got to you. You don't know how they're feeling on their side. They could be drowning in work, and they're like, hey man, we need a lifeline, we need help, and you could be that superstar, you could be that lifeline to come in and help them, right? So don't always go in with this kind of like defensive mindset when you're going into an interview or you're going in to negotiate. No, dude, be a killer, be a killer because just like you want that job, they want you or they want someone to come and fill that job as well. So you got to keep that in mind at always, always, always, always, always. They interview you, you interview them right back. And when I say that, when John and I say that fit matters, I also have some horrible stories to share where it was like the number looked great, the they sold it to me beautifully. I mean, they were salesmen. I jump into that role, and I come to find out the company is in the middle of being sold. Uh basically, the the whole US base of that company was just gonna disappear. And, you know, I was gonna be working, nothing against this, but I was gonna be solely working with the other side of the company that was based in India. So my my hours of work were gonna have to shift to match the hours of work of my manager who was in India. So like you just you just never know. So you gotta ask questions.

John: 12:01

Yep. I I think that is that switch. This is a a hack, I guess you would say, is when you do start asking them questions, now they they kind of they're usually in the driver's seat. You're in you're in your hiring manager, you think you're in the driver's seat, right? But when you ask them questions, now they are on the receiving end, and it puts you, it actually makes you stand out as a candidate. Oh, that person, as long as you don't be a won't be a punk about it, right? Don't come in there and be like hard-nosed, like you do honest questions that you really want to know why, because you care and you want to know if this is the right fit. So it that is a perfect thing to say because it really does help you. Um, but just just there's an art to it, a little bit of of asking the right questions in an honest way. Don't come in and try to like put them on their back heel and make them def defensive about it. You want to ask just to get the facts. I'm here to understand the facts, you know, understand what the company's about, what does this role mean? You know, um, a good question that you commonly get is like, well, what's the training budget? You know, do you do you guys have a training budget? Um, which is a solid question. And and it and do people get the opportunity to train? What does it look like for a typical person to go to training? Do they get to go one conference a year? Do they get a class and a conference? Whatever. And um, and that's that's a perfectly good question, right? You want to understand what your opportunities are and and what may be there, what might not be there, right? So, yeah, for sure. Ask questions.

Steve: 13:43

Absolutely. Now let's let's take a kind of step back. I'm sure everybody wants to know how do I negotiate for more money? And that's fair, right? We're assuming that when you are applying to these positions, you know, most most positions nowadays, there's some sort of a pay range that is posted with the position. They give you an idea of like around this, this much you could make, right? And then once you interview it, it will depend on maybe your experience, um, your knowledge, and how kind of how well you sell yourself when you're doing the interview, depends kind of where you land on that range. Now, let me tell you this. Sometimes those ranges can be misleading, okay? And sometimes those ranges, like the hiring manager who knows how much they have budgeted for this position, they're not the ones who put those ranges out there. Okay, it's usually HR. And HR sometimes are not worth how far they can be thrown. So you have to be very cautious. Don't believe, oh my God, a vulnerability analyst position in, I don't know, Texas can make $200,000 like easy. Whoa, hold on there. Yeah, like you have to do your research. Don't just believe everything you see on LinkedIn. How can you do that? Right, how can you look? Well, first of all, there's a lot of free sources out there online that will allow you to look at certain positions, gives you a range of like how much this position could make in a certain area based off of actual information around those areas. So it'll give you an average from a low number to a high number, and it gives you an average of what of what you could make. So when you are in those positions and you are offered a position, never just accept it. Always say, thank you. I'm very interested. I need some time to think about it. Always, always, always, always, always, always. Because more times than none, there is some negotiation power and some wiggle room. They are always going to lowball you at the very beginning. Always. They're gonna want to get you for the cheapest price they can. So you have to go into these interviews and negotiations knowing that there's always a little more. So by doing so, by taking your time, if you haven't done your research, you can use that time to do additional research. But at that point, they have listed everything that they are willing to offer you if you take that role. And this is where some of these additional questions could be asked about on call, travel, uh, relocation, um, what kind of relocation plans do they have if you're relocating? Are you gonna be working remote, hybrid, in office? How far away is your office from your house? Are you gonna be driving an hour one way? How much gas is that? Traffic. I mean, there's so much for you to really consider and and just think about and talk about with yourself, your family to make sure that this is the right opportunity for you.

John: 16:58

And if somebody asks me, hey, is there, you know, let they say, hey, let me, I'm gonna take my time, think about it, then I'm a good, you should. You know, it's not a bad thing. I'm not gonna take that negatively. Oh, they don't want to say yes right now. And if the hiring manager or recruiter is trying to pressure you, which a recruiter will pressure, you're gonna get pressure from a recruiter because a recruiter is looking at that payday. Hiring manager, if they're pressuring you to make a decision right then, maybe you need to think twice about it. Even if you're in if they're in a tough situation and they need somebody right now, they should still, I'm not gonna say you need to decide before we leave. No, you know, that's a red flag. Yeah, that's a red flag right there. Yeah. I will say, like, I don't know that they're always lowballing you, but if somebody asks if there's a if there's an opportunity for more, like they asked me that, then I can say, you know, we can I can ask. It might be possible. My hands might be tied, right? That might be like, hey, this is all we've been budgeted for. Um, but it it doesn't, um, again, I'm not gonna look at you negatively if you ask, is there room for, is there any negotiating room here? That's okay. I mean, I I'm cool with that, right? That means you're trying to get what you can to out of this opportunity. Um, as long as you're doing it politely, nicely, respectfully, you know, and and not trying to be, hey, we're not a car sales dealer dealership, right? You know, this isn't about I'm gonna walk out the door if we don't have a deal, I'm gonna say see ya, right? So it is a it is a thing you just be respectful, be honest. Um, but it's okay to ask. It's okay to ask if there's once you've done your thinking about this, and you come back and you're like, hey, you know, would you guys be open to this? That's where it kind of gets into the negotiation phase. Um, but it's also okay to say in that first time that you they make the offer, okay, thank you so much. You know, is there any wiggle room? Is this is this it or is there any wiggle room? If you're going through a recruiter, a recruiter might say, Well, let me get back to you. They're gonna go ask on your behalf, which might be good, might not be good, but it might have to be what you do, right? Um, the neg the recruiters are not necessarily incentivized. I mean, you there is a percentage, and I don't know as much about this, but I don't know that it's a bigger deal to them to get you more money as it is to you, even though they get a percentage based off of the the salary, I think that's how it works. Um, but I would just say like they're they're not always in it for you. So you may have to push your recruiter to work on your behalf. They're more interested in getting you in the door so they can get their immediate payday. Right.

Steve: 19:52

Yeah, no, I completely agree. So let's jump into some do's and don'ts, because I think this is a good a good follow-up. So ask for specifics in writing. Most of the time, in my experience, um, when you are uh you get to that point where they're making you an offer, the first they'll call you and it's a verbal offer, right? They kind of you they kind of tell you what they're offering you. Um that's when you can ask for some time, and that's when you can say thank you, ask for some time, ask if there's some wiggle room. I would follow up by saying, you know, is there something that's gonna follow in writing where all this is listed, right? So it's not just a verbal offer. Most of the time there is. So you want to make sure that that is coming. Um, you also want to, you know, if you are lucky, if you're in a position where you are, you know, you have multiple offers and you're comparing them, right? I have seen, I have not done this myself, so I can't speak to it, but I have seen and I have spoken to individuals who have multiple offers and they play them against one another. Okay. I have I've seen people do that, I've talked to people who have done that, I have talked to people that where that has worked. But I can, I'll be honest with you, I can also see where that can hurt you. So I think you should proceed with caution. What do you think, John?

John: 21:21

I mean, yes, I I think it is awesome that you have multiple offers, and it's good to weigh those against each other, each other. And and it is that's where one thing is good to have a recruiter in the middle where you can tell that recruiter, like, hey, I've got this other offer. This is what pay they are offering me. I am really interested in this position. I think this is the best role for me. Is there an opportunity for them to match? If they can't, they can't, right? And that's okay. But that way I just worded it is how you, in my opinion, that's how you go about it. Yeah, right. You say, hey, I really I like this more. This job is uh they have more in the package, they're offering me is a little bit higher. What you guys have here, I am more excited about. Now don't go back and say that to both of them. Hey, this one, this one, oh, they said that. I think that's where it starts getting shady. You're like, Yeah, they offered me 10k more. What do you guys say? Oh, they oh, you're matching? Okay, oh no, you do that. Then it starts getting to be like, nah, let's kill this deal. Right.

Steve: 22:23

I I think I I would say you you probably have the ability to do that once. Yeah. Of going, hey, will you match this? So if the original offer is better than the other, then you can say, hey, are you willing to match it? And if they will, great. If not, then there's your answer. It makes your answer a lot easier, right? Yeah. But you can't, like, if they match it, then you can't go to the back to the other one and say, Oh, well, will you match this? And then go back to the other one. Like, you cannot keep doing that.

John: 22:50

Like that now they might they might counter the offer, like that you especially if you have recruiters involved, right? They're gonna they're trying their best. And they might go back to the other, the first one, and say, hey, they matched, and he's really thinking about that with that one because they matched and he likes it. And they they could come back with another counter. That's okay, but you don't I've that had that happen before, literally, and I was like, sorry, you know, I I really like this opportunity. I don't want to get into this, you know, war of of uh of of offers. Um, because I feel like you start getting you they start looking at you a little differently if you start going back and playing the two, you know. So it it does help the company know, like this person is in demand, you know. So it's not a bad thing to say, I do have multiple offers, don't lie about it, and play that game where you're like trying to play them and say, because I've had them say, Well, can you bring that offer in writing? Yes. To prove me that you have an offer, right?

Steve: 23:54

Right, yeah, that's the other thing. So don't think that, oh, I can lie, because some companies will say, Oh, well, show it to me. Like, let me see it, let me confirm that this is legitimate, and then we can continue our conversation. So that's the last thing you want to do is just lie or try to come up with some I some lie where it's like, oh, well, you know what? Never mind. I I don't want to go down yeah, I think I want to rather go with you guys worth it. Red flag. Red flag. Um, I was gonna add one more thing. I'm stuck in my notes here. Um, okay, the other thing. So um sometimes there may not be as much wiggle room as you would like from the pay standpoint, but there could be other possibilities for other things that you could negotiate that will make your decision a lot easier, and then you still feel like you you're getting more than what you're they originally offered, right? It could be with um how much vacation time you get, it could be with whether you're working remote, hybrid in the office. Um, it could be on call, uh, depending kind of how how this company or this position does the on-call. Um, it could be about growth, it could be training, right? So if they are not able to pay pay you more for your annual salary, well, maybe they can provide so many trainings that will help you as a professional grow, but also help the team and the organization. So there's a number of things that you you should try to leverage and try and see what they're willing to do uh to work with you to make sure that you are happy and ready to go with that position.

John: 25:38

Yeah, no, I just use don't just consider the just the salary or the pay, right? Consider the whole the whole deal and maybe they have a fully remote policy and the other companies don't, right? So what is it that's gonna, it's not all about pay. I have definitely rejected opportunities that I thought at first was gonna be great and they were paying a lot more, but when I started looking at the whole package of like I'm gonna be in the grind working 60 hours a week, and just like that's the culture, I was like, that's not worth it. Like I don't it's not worth it for me. So it may be for you, maybe different, you know, different phases of your life that that's okay, and you're trying to build up your your resume and your skills. Um, that's okay. So it's not don't don't take my example, but consider your options and and what you have.

Steve: 26:34

Absolutely. Going back, I want to add one more thing before we jump onto the next item. Um, when we were talking about learning to see if this uh organization is a good fit for you, um, one of the things we we um really promote and try and and push our mentees and that we work with uh through CPS is reaching out to individuals in that organization. So we say, hey, it's good for you to reach out to them and just ask them about the position, ask them about the team, but it is also a good opportunity for you to get some information, insider information before you even go down that route of interviewing or even applying if you do it beforehand. And there is no better person to tell you the the real deal, like the the true stuff of what's going on in that organization, but someone who actually works there and somebody who's part of that team because they are living it and they are breathing it. And most people will be honest and they will say, you know what, man, I am like counting the days until I get I can get out of here. So just FYI, or they can say, Oh, this is a great team. Uh, really enjoy working with this group, leadership is amazing, they have your back, uh, you know, they're very honest, and you name it, right? So all that helps. And if you are considering a position there, hopefully you've already done some communicating with people, but if you haven't, I will take that opportunity as well. Reaching out to some of those people and saying, hey, I'm really interested in this position, I'm considering it, but you know, do you do you have any feedback? Do you have do you have any information that someone from the outside looking in should know before making this big life decision, which is accepting a position with you? So anyway.

John: 28:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just um on that, the when you're trying to make that connection, you know there is a you know, you gotta be careful that it doesn't seem like you're trying to mine information from them, but you're interested, just like you worded it, right? Hey, I'm I think this position's cool. Um, I I'm interested in knowing more about the company and the people, culture, right? And keep it high level, but also you know, you're trying to find out what it's like. And the reason this is good is because when you're in the interview room, it's a different dynamic. You know, you can you can ask those questions, but now you're in the interview and they may or may not be as open as they would if you just had uh had coffee with somebody, right? If you could have coffee, hey, let's get you mind if we get coffee and just chat? I'd love to get to know about the company and what what you guys do. Yeah. Let's do it. Come on. Yeah, yeah.

Steve: 29:31

Awesome. All right. Um, let's see here. So asking for a raise. So, John, if I if you were if I was to ask you for a raise, John, what are the things you would like to see? And uh what what will check that box of like, you know what? I think I am gonna give Steve a raise. This is the

John: 30:00

The sneaky way of asking for rights. Just so happen, if I work for you, um, well, for sure, um, as something you like to say is keep the receipts right. Um, and do your homework. The big things are do your homework. What are what is fair pay for the for your role, you know, and the area and the role that it's similar organization types, right? So for us, higher education. What does a typical uh person in that role make in higher education for our state, for the the adjoining states? You can't just pick like the big cities, you gotta pick around the average. Yeah, exactly. Um, you gotta you know get a good average based off what's reasonable. There's a lot of data to help you with this. One thing I thought about was INS, they have a salary survey that they do, I A N S that I think is pretty much open to anybody that I actually look at and kind of keep track of um CISO pay ranges and they break it down by industry and and higher educations in there and whatever. But do your homework on what's reasonable. You know, if you find out that you are are way out of whack, then that's okay. You know, you can that's where you bring the data, not only just the the thing that's out of whack, your salary, but what else have you been doing to earn this raise? Yeah. What are the things that I have shown? Because, you know, I know Steve is awesome and he's getting after it, but I might forget what he did three months ago. I will forget. But you know, you keep records of that. See what were you gonna say?

Steve: 31:39

No, the thing is, see, when you are such an amazing deputy CISO, and your CISO even forgets you exist, you're doing your job because nothing is bothering him. He's just he's living the dream, focusing on his stuff when everything under him is being taken care of, that nothing goes up, then you already know you're doing what you're doing, what you're supposed to do.

John: 32:02

If you're making me look good, that's number one. We say this all the time. I say this all the time. If I'm thinking about if you come ask me that question, and the last memory I have is how I I look bad to my boss, that's not good. Right? Now mistakes happen, you know, that's not what we're talking about. But if I'm thinking, you know what, I'm these are the things I'm able to show we're getting done as a as a group, and here's here's your list. We did this, my team did this, I helped lead this, I did that, right? Um, you should if you don't show up with that and you're asking for a raise, that's not good.

Steve: 32:39

No, it's not at all. I I I tell my my guys, my team members, you know, like John said, keep the receipts. You know, I I mean most organizations have some sort of performance evaluation once a year, right? I tell them, I need you to keep track of every single thing you have done because all of that is gonna be ammunition for me to use in your favor when I go battle and try and get you a raise. So this is good for you, it's good for me, it's good for everyone. So you have to keep record of everything that you've completed. Now, don't just be like, oh, I closed this ticket today. No, come on now. It's gotta be big things, right? Um, that projects, things that you've been in that you've been a part of, things that that are gonna leave an impact, and it's it's gonna show me, hey, so and so, they've been busting their behind. Here's the proof, here are the receipts, they deserve it.

John: 33:38

Yeah. So yeah, number one, bust your behind, get after it, get stuff done. Be seen as somebody that is dependable, yes, that you know you can give stuff to, and they're gonna get it done. If I if I'm thinking about you and I'm thinking about, oh, he's gonna ask me for a raise, that's the first thing I'm thinking about is you know, what have they done? Help me remember, here's my receipts, and but you're already in my mind of like this person that is is all those things reliable, uh, you know, just getting things done. That's how I've I've gotten promotions throughout my career is I'm somebody that you give me something, I'm gonna get it done as best as possible and keep it going. And it might take a while, but I'm gonna get it done. Now, that's not just me, that's me working with my team. I can't do it all. But, you know, just like our roles are more like leading the team to get these things done. But definitely for sure, have that stuff just accumulated of over the time of like, hey, here's the things of ways that I've helped our organization, our group, move the needle, how we protected the university, et cetera, et cetera. And if you alongside that, you're like, and right now, you know, I've done my homework here, you could even work with HR. Some HRs will help you out with this and say, hey, could would you mind doing a salary comparison for my role? And they'll some of them will do that for you just as data, and you can say, Looks like for my role, my title, whatever, here's what we're seeing in the area. Some HRs will do that for you. And um, and then you have that data, like, hey, you know, I'm off, I'm lower than my peers, right? Yep. Or if you're not, that's okay. You can make the case that you're you are better. I am this is about what's average for my peers, but I I feel like because of XYZ, I'm I am a higher talented individual. I'm bringing more to the table, and I you want, you know, you don't say this, but you're saying you want you want me to stay here because of all these good things that I'm bringing to the organization. Um, so I'm making the case. Yeah. This is why I believe that I'm worth more. That's and that's okay. It can't be adversarial. If it is, it's gonna be bad because they might they might give you that raise, but then later they're gonna be like, okay, that's it. You don't get anything else. Right, you don't want that. But that's the kind of way the the the way I think about approaching it is bring your data, your homework on what you've been doing and what your what the typical salaries are, and or your case for why you think you should make more. And usually hiring managers are gonna be like, you know what? You're right. And I think you are worth it. And I do think you should make more. And like it's this might be a little controversial, right? It's not my it's not my money. Like, I've worked for managers that are penny pinchers and they're like, can't give you another dollar. It's is it coming out of your pocket? Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like I still need to be a good steward of it, but if I think you're worth it, I'm gonna make the case. I think they're worth it. And I think, you know, is how is it gonna hurt me to go ask HR or whoever to give you more money? Yeah, it's not gonna hurt me. Yeah, it's not gonna they're gonna take that from my paycheck. Exactly. Yeah, to give it to you. But I have definitely worked with managers that you think that they're you're stealing from them. Now, if small business, maybe if it's a cut you know, small company, I get it, maybe, but still, like you want to show your value to them at the end of the day, like they're not gonna ding me to give you for giving you a raise.

Steve: 37:30

Yeah, yeah. No, I I you I think you nailed it right there, John, because some people do feel that way, they get very defensive. Um, but I wanted to take a step back. This all starts with you actually asking for one. And I mentioned it earlier in our opener, but there was a survey done in 2024 that found 82% of full-time workers who asked for a raise got one. Now, it's fair to assume, in my opinion, that they came with their receipts, they did their research, they did their homework, and made it very easy for the hiring manager to see that and say, you know what, you're right, you do, you've done a lot. So don't just go in there not prepared, not knowing. Also, it's good to know how much you're asking for, how much more you would like. Because if you go in there, hey, I want to raise, and then you're you're you're building yourself up and you're like, oh, I'm gonna have to battle for this, and you go in there and you're asking for a raise, and they say, Okay, yeah, how much? And you don't know? Come on, man. You gotta be prepared. Be prepared.

John: 38:38

Yeah, that's a good point. I just I don't know, I just want to raise.

Steve: 38:41

Uh, just more money. Just you want a dollar more? Okay. The other thing I was gonna add was sometimes um what I've seen is people say, Hey, I'm gonna ask for a raise because they've given me more work, right? There's a new project, there's a new initiative, there's a new objective, whatever it may be. And maybe it wasn't spelled out in your job description, but now you're the go-to person. Now they really need you. You know, someone left, or this is a completely new project, and you were the one who unfortunately were doing so good that you knocked out all your projects and you had a little bit of leftover time, so they threw you in there. In my opinion, and I want to hear your thoughts, John. I would not ask for a raise before. You know, if if you if it suits you, I mean, if you have a choice and it suits you and you want to, you know, uh sometimes you may not have a choice, you will have to do what your boss tells you to. Um do the project, kick butt, take names, after that, in my opinion, is the right time to ask for a raise, especially if you're gonna continue to do work in that area, continue to handle things, be the go-to, be the subject matter expert. I will absolutely say that is the right time to ask because you are building all that ammunition along the way, getting things done, you know, uh being the responsible one, the go-to. You're just letting everybody know I'm here to do the job and I've done it well, and now we've completed it. To me, that is when you ask for a race.

John: 40:22

Yeah. So there are two parts of that. One is most of the time I've I you know I have been given more work without more money. I would say that's the majority of the time, right? But then you're you to your point, you're building up that, you know what, John is gonna get stuff done. You know, he he didn't ask, he wasn't, well, what if I'll do this, but right now you're getting into that little bit of a you know, holding them hostage situation. You don't want to be seen as that person. You want to be like, yeah, yes, sir, yes, ma'am, let's see, let's get it. Now, if it is a, hey, we want you to take on a lot more responsibility, and it is a long term, then it's okay to say, well, that's great. I'm happy to do so. You know, I'm I'm willing to step up and and take this and help help our team. Um, is there an opportunity for more pay for this additional because it's a longer term thing? That is completely fine, right? Now they may say, unfortunately, not at this time. You say, understood, you know, I I got it. You know, I'll just have to I'll buckle down and and don't worry, I got it. Now, there later, you can use that as like, hey, you know, I've been getting after it and getting it done, and look how good of a job I've doing. As you follow up later, it, you know, just wanted to recheck and see, you know, we've been doing this for six months and I've had this additional responsibility. Just wanted to make sure, you know, is there's just wanted to ask again, is there an opportunity for more salary adjustment based off of my additional responsibilities? That's okay. If they say no again, that's okay. You know, you you might be thinking, like, man, maybe I need to be looking at someone else. Yeah. I mean, but it's but it's honest. Like, I don't mean if I'm the manager, I don't want to put you in a bad situation for long term and you feel like you're being undervalued. That's bad. That means my relationship with you doesn't matter as much. But if I'm honest and open about it, I'm like, I just can't, I wish, man, I really wish I could. Maybe there's something else I can do to try to do this. But they've got they've tied my hands, and I can't give you more salary. Um, but that's an open conversation to have based off of what you're doing and what you've done.

Speaker 5: 42:36

Yeah.

Steve: 42:37

So I agree with you. I think when I was speaking, I was thinking about projects, something small, yeah, something that has a start and an end. But yeah, if we're taking a step back and like, oh, they are going to combine two groups into one, and now you are the guy. Oh, absolutely. You want to do that beforehand. Yeah, just like John said, you want to ask, and if not, still do it and then ask after. Um, absolutely. So I guess it dep it depends on the situation. But you should either either way, you should ask. Always ask. You lose nothing by asking. And what's the worst thing someone can say? No, then you move on.

Speaker 4: 43:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Steve: 43:19

All right, awesome. Totally agree.

John: 43:20

So let's see here. Um, one one thing too, I've thrown in here just about Chris Voss and the tactical empathy or the nego uh never split the different difference. Sorry, never split the difference book. Um, and he he talks about tactical empathy, which I do think these are all like tactics that he's used for negotiation. He's a former FBI negotiator. Now, some of these are a little weird and I don't know that they'll work. Now you can try, read the book, summarize the book, kind of get your idea on it. I do think the one that stands out the most is the tactical empathy, right? You're trying to put yourself in that hiring manager's shoes and and think about a good like a good example would be um, you know, I realize there are budget constraints and other priorities right now, um, but I wanted to see if now was it was an okay time to talk about my compensation, right? And you really do care, you want to come in and show that you care, and you are thinking about that hiring manager knowing that they have a lot of stuff going on, and you're trying to put it in that way of instead of hey, I need something, I want something, I want to talk to you about it, right? So some of those things that stand out, I think that that one in particular is good. There's some other tactics in here like labeling and mirroring and calibrated calibrated questions. I'll let you guys do your research on it. I mean, it's all about negotiation, this book. Um, let me know if it works. I I I don't know if I've tried these enough to say, like, oh yeah, that's for sure. That's a go, that's a go-to tactic. But if you want to try it, yeah, let us know. Absolutely. All right, thanks, John.

Steve: 45:05

Yeah, so that's um, so we'll probably link to that book in the show notes to make it easier for people. Okay, awesome. All right, last uh topic for us today. Whether you're either working towards or asking for a promotion, the do's and don'ts, and how you should uh you should go after that. Any thoughts on that, John?

John: 45:29

I think um I think we've kind of talked about it a bit, like showing that your value on a continual basis, you want to be seen as somebody that we can't do real do without. Like we would hate to lose you. We we know how good you are. And if you came in my door and you're like, I hate to tell you this, but I've got a I'm I've got another opportunity. And it's like, oh my gosh, you're killing me, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, but if possible, if it's all about your situation, have those conversations early with your manager. Say, hey, um, I I you know, I'm just gonna let you know, right, that I know we've talked about maybe you've already had that conversation about salary before. I know we've talked about salary, I know your hands are tied, but me for for me right now and my situation in my family, I got I've got to explore other opportunities, right? And that's okay. And then you're not surprising me, which a lot of times is what happens. You surprise them. You show up and you say, Hey, I got an offer, I'm out in 10 days, I'm out in seven days, two weeks, whatever. I in my opinion, if the more open and honest conversations you have about this, and maybe maybe the manager can't do anything, but now you've got a you're helping keep that relationship. So if you do decide you take another opportunity, it's not that surprise. Um, and then maybe there's an opportunity to come back. There's you never know, right? You never know. So I think just having that early, having that previous conversation early, don't be disgruntled and upset, and you know, you bottled up inside and you're like, this is not fair, you know, they don't care about me, whatever, whatever, they they don't know, you know, they may not have they may know, but they may not know until you have that conversation. So have it early and say, look, I know right now is maybe not the opportune time. What what what's the possibilities in the future for us to talk about this again? What can I do going forward to show my value that I might we maybe can readdress this? Yeah, that's a perfect thing to talk about. And then they may say, no, you're you're killing it, you know, keep killing it, keep doing what you're doing, you know, you're making me look good, which is making my boss look good, right? Um, and then I'm gonna I you know we'll bring it up again to HR in six months, whatever, three months, right? That's there's nothing wrong with that. Um, and then later, if you say, you know what, you know, I I still I gotta I gotta do something here. That's okay. You know, we we tried, um, we worked together. I don't want to lose you, but what can I do to help you? That's what that's how you want to move through that conversation. So I don't know if that's exactly what this bullet is about, but I'm just thinking about you know you've had that previous conversation and now you're you know you're following up later with um, hey, I'm just leaving, right? You know, that's a bad way to put it.

Steve: 48:38

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I I think you're right. I think communication is key. It always is for everything. Your marriage, friendship, you name it, communication is key. So this is assuming that you have regular meetings uh with your manager, and even if you don't, you can take the effort, make the step to talk to your manager and share where you want to take your career, right? If you are working with them, say you are security analyst level one and you're working towards security analyst level, security analyst level two, make that known. Let them know that that is what you're aspiring to do and see how see what you need to do to get there. Um, hopefully they have an idea and hopefully they can say, well, we need to show XYZ. And you can kind of create your own little roadmap to get to that point, right? Now, there are some basic things. You always want to be a hard worker, you don't want to be lazy, you want to be dependable, you want to be responsible, you want to be someone that people will always go to. Even if you're not the guy or girl that does that, the fact that you have people coming to you asking you for help, that should be a badge of honor. That means you're doing something right. Now, um, when you have that plan in place and you are working towards it and you've met it, that is where all that we've talked about today comes into play. Whether you're asking for a raise or you're asking for a promotion, keeping those receipts, being able to talk and describe and show that you haven't just been sitting on your hands, you've been putting in the work and you are for the company, you are for the vision, the mission, the the vision and the mission, you name it, you are there and they can count on you. The other thing that I've seen too, though, is sometimes people show up and they say, Hey, I've done everything I'm supposed to. Here are my receipts. This is what I would like. You said after X amount of time, after this was completed, that we can come back and talk about it. If they say no, it's up to you if you want to continue to stay there or if you want to look for other options. One thing I've seen people do, and this could go either way, is they go and look for other options and they have an offer letter. And they come and say, Hey, I've done everything that you told me to do. You know, do it the right way, the responsible, the nice way. And then they shut you down. And then you can say, Well, I think I'm getting out of here, my friend, because they're going to give me what I've been working for, busted my behind for, trying to do here, but unfortunately the timing isn't right. So I gotta do what's best for me and my family. I think that's okay. I think what is not okay is if there's no communication, there's no heads up in a sense, and you just walk in and say, I'm out. That's that's just my that's just my my opinion.

John: 51:43

Yeah, I mean, unless it's such a toxic environment, yeah. Um one thing on on getting getting things done, being seen as a hard worker. I I thought about this. It it may sound like we're thinking we're we are saying you need to be working 60 hours a week, you gotta be on call every minute, you know. That's it it actually may only take an extra 10 to 25 percent to be seen as a hard worker, which it may be it may be a sad thing to say, but it doesn't take a lot to stand out. If you look at what you're doing compared to your peers, most of them are just they're just doing, they're just you know, cover minimum. Punch the clock, punch the clock, punch the clock, right? Punch in, punch out. It doesn't take a lot to just like do over and be above. Now don't do over and above that's gonna wear you out and wear you down and and grind you down. But if I if I do the extra, it doesn't take much. It's not like I'm spending 20 hours more a week to try to do that extra. It's like, no, they asked me to do this, you know what? I want them to look good. I want them to be, I want them to see that you know I'm bringing value to this team and to them, and I did this and this, and I made sure this and that, and I double checked this and I talked to this John, you're killing it. You know, you did extra. I didn't even think about those things, yeah. You know, so that's that mindset of what can I do to be seen as the as a dependable, reliable A player.

Steve: 53:30

Yeah. Yeah, we we talked a little bit about this in a previous episode. I'm I'm trying to remember the the title. But you're right, it doesn't take much to stand out, and it is sad to say. It is sad to say, um, but to me, like to me, right? I'm talking about myself as as a manager and with my team. There's a lot of different people in my team over a lot of different things. You know, we got endpoint engineering, cloud, network security, we got the SOC, there's there's just a lot going on. If I come to someone in my team now and say, hey, I need help with this, I know they're gonna run with it. I know they're gonna go for and run with it and kill it. Yes, they will ask me questions just to make sure that what they think I'm asking is is actually it, so they can get to work on it. But I've also worked with individuals where I ask them something and it's a complete like, oh, I don't know. Or oh, that's not me.

John: 54:31

That's why here's why we can't, here's why I can't do that.

Steve: 54:34

Yes, it's like either no, I I don't know, or it's not me, it's this guy, or no, we can't do that. Like, dude, really? Like, did you even do some research? Did you even try? Like, if we can't do it, fair. But show me, tell me why. Like, give me examples to like show me that you've actually thought it through and we can't do it. And then tell me exactly why, because I may have answered might may have additional questions or answers for you that will push that roadblock aside, and we can actually get it done if we just communicate it. But if it's just a simple, oh no, we can't do that.

John: 55:10

Come on now. Steve's only seen me lose my cool one time in a meeting. Yeah. Oh yeah. And yeah, only one time. I'm pretty chill. Um, and the one time was when I knew they didn't do the extra legwork to see if it's possible, and they told me it could, it can't happen. It can't, they can't do it. Now, they might be thinking they might have been thinking John doesn't do his homework, or he didn't do his homework to double check us, but I'm I'm gonna do my homework, right? And I know better. And so I mean, I'm gonna tell you, I lost, I lost my cool that day. I lost my cool. Yeah. And the eyes, their eyes were like this. Even Steve was like, John raised his voice. Oh man. They should have been recording this. I know, I know. But it was all around somebody telling you they can't do it, and they they were just being lazy. That's honestly what it was. Yeah.

Steve: 56:10

Just being lazy. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. So, just some additional things, right, to just make yourself stand out. One of the things I try my hardest, and look, sometimes it's hard, sometimes it's difficult. When people come to me, they usually come to me because either I can help them with something or someone on my team can help them with something, or they just don't know what the hell they're doing, and they're just trying to find someone to help them point them in the right direction. So that's exactly what I do. Everything that comes my way, whether I'm the responsible for it, whether someone on my team is responsible for it, it does not matter. I try and find them the answer. I don't just say, oh no, it's not me, it's this guy over here. I go to that guy, especially if I know who it is, I'll go and say, hey, this is the question that was just asked for me. What do you think? And can I send this person over to you for further questions or anything that you may need? Sometimes I don't even need to do that. Sometimes I just need to find the answer to the question. So instead of sending somebody to go to talk to somebody else, I'll go find the answer to the question and I give them the answer. All those little things, you might think, oh man, well, you're just wasting your time and this and that, whatever. No, I'm building my own reputation in the organization. They know, hey, if something's going to Steve, he may not be the right person for it, or he may not know it, but he's gonna figure it out, or he's gonna try to figure it out and let us know. That matters. That matters so much because the last thing you want is for people to have an idea of you of someone that can't get anything done, like they can't count on you, they can't go to you to help them solve a problem because it's not in the area that you are responsible for.

John: 57:50

Like, yeah, or it's like you do just the just what was told. Like, yeah, I get it. Like, hey, I give you something to do and you do that thing. But if I'm doing a thousand things and I'm in my world, and then I have to go back and say, Oh, yeah, I did that thing. Oh, you know what? Did can you also do this? Can you also do that? You're adding that additional value of like, hey, I went ahead and talked to so-and-so, I talked to so so-and-so. You're not just a one and done, I did what you told me to do and I I checked that box, right? You know, it's about bringing the extra to help your team, your your manager. Absolutely.

Steve: 58:28

And then just being um, just just being reliable, you know, just being a reliable individual. It like this seems very simple to you to everybody listening, probably, but when you start working and you start being in the field, you will notice things where it's like it's really easy to be reliable, but some people just fall short. And it matters. As a as a manager, I need to make sure that I have a reliable team. I can count on my team, that I can trust them and they can trust me. And just building that relationship is super important because it goes all back to culture and what you have. My team knows that if something happens, I have their back, and I know that if something happens, they have mine. That is the most important thing you could do as a manager and in leadership is have that and have a strong, strong team.

John: 59:20

So last thing I'll say I'll add to is just don't bring drama, don't add drama, don't stir up drama, right? Like you want to be able to say, hey, that person, they're not in there gossiping and causing a stir and a ruckus. This is you might be a killer, you might be the most technically savant person that you can just get stuff done, and we know we give you something, you get it done, but then you're over here stirring up trouble and you're causing a ruckus, and we can't have you in a meeting because you always are arguing and you think you know it all. Like, we're gonna if we if we don't if we get that kind of Heat because it's gonna come back to us. Hey, so and so, they man, they were just arguing with everybody in that meeting. Like you gotta be a good team member, a game good team player, not just for yourself, but for the organization, and try to you're ultimately you're trying to get things done, but not just about you. It's not all about you, right? Which is where usually where those things spawn. It's like, well, what about me? What about me? Right? And then you start drama. If you start drama, you're not getting a raise. At least from me, right? So that it's a whole we could do a whole episode on those start drama, but um that's something to note, right? You could be killer, could be getting after it, but you're you're a headache. If you're a headache, it's not gonna work. Not at all, not at all.

Steve: 1:00:49

Yeah, all right. I think that's it, John. I think that's a wrap. I mean, thank you all for listening. This was kind of a different time kind of topic, but it's it's still good, it's something that you know a lot of people face, a lot of people go and and have questions on, and we're here to help give you our opinions. So that's it for today. Thank you all for listening. If you do want to pick up some of our swag, you know where the link is in the description. But other than that, until next time. See ya. And a huge thank you to our sponsor for season five of the Cybersecurity Mentors Podcast, ACI Learning. You can check out ACI Learning at acilearning.com slash simply cyber. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of the Cybersecurity Mentors Podcast.

John: 1:01:36

Remember to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform so you get all the episodes. Join us next time as we continue to unlock the secrets of cybersecurity mentorship.

Steve: 1:01:46

Do you have questions or topics you'd like us to cover, or do you want to share your journey? Join us on Discord at Cybersecurity Mentors Podcast and follow us on LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 4: 1:01:58

Until next time, I'm John Hoyt, and I'm Steve Higaretta. Thank you for listening.