Episode 45: You Matter. Yes, You.

In this episode, Natalie and I dig into the article Mattering in Early Childhood: Building a Strong Foundation for Life and reflect on what it really means to feel like you matter—starting in infancy and continuing throughout our lives. We talk about being seen, valued, and knowing that who you are (and what you bring) counts, both in our work and in our relationships. It’s an honest, relational conversation about why mattering isn’t an “extra,” it’s foundational… and yes, that includes you too.

Reference:
Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University. Mattering in Early Childhood: Building a Strong Foundation for Life.

Transcript

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[music] Hi and welcome to the Infant Mental Health Podcast. I'm Amy, and I'm Natalie, and this is episode 45. Look at us. 45. Well last time we talked, we talked with Jess Taylor Pickford, had a great conversation that some of those phrases that we kind of talked about, that we wrote down, like I still keep thinking about that curiosity with positive regard. And just like, I just keep thinking that's the piece that I've been feeling like was missing and that gave a word, a name to that thing. And today, Natalie and I are actually going to talk about something that I also think gives like a word to something I've been thinking about. We read a paper that kind of was one of those light bulb moments for me because I just, as I'm thinking through things, it was like I was wondering about how all this fits together. So anyways, the paper that we were reading was from Harvard's, the center for the developing child, and it was Jennifer B. Wallace, who has written a couple of books. Well, has written a book about the toxic achievement and also has a book on this topic coming out soon and it was about mattering and what that means in, like for children and for growing up. So we thought we'd talk about that today. Yeah. And there's a whole movement called the mattering movement. Yeah, there's a website and it is the mattering movement dot com. It's a robust team. Yeah, it is. This is this movement. It looks like they do events, speaking engagement, but it also looks like there's a whole curriculum for schools. So probably assemblies and type presentations, you know, when they call all the students down for a message. So it looks like there's pieces of that in here. Yeah. And this paper that we read is called mattering in early childhood building a strong foundation for life. And in the end of the article it literally has like practical things that you can do to help with that instilling that mattering in kids. So there's a lot of good resources out there for our listeners to go check out. But I wanted to just talk about this because when I just said about it kind of puts a name to something. And that's why we're talking about it kind of reminds me of the self esteem movement a little bit where we're talking about children being valued and feeling valuable. And what mattering brings into the picture the way she defines it is that you both show up as a valuable human like the people around you see that you have value and also you create value by participating. You know some examples are doing chores, right? When I'm doing chores, I'm helping my family. I'm valuable to them. They need me. One of the things she says is that I would be missed if I wasn't here. Like the thing that I bring matters and if I didn't bring it people would miss it. And I really for me that captured something that I think about which is I mean we talked a little bit about this. You and I before when we even talked a little bit about that substance abuse and like the volunteerism and how to give kids this sense. And I think the word was mattering. We just didn't have that. The concept or term as a way of talking about it that I matter that my presence on this earth makes a difference. And not just because I'm cute and special right. It's because I'm special because I have something to offer the world. Also, it would be missed. And it would be missed if I wasn't here. And it's different. I think one of the things that was valuable to me in thinking about the terminology and the specificity of the word mattering and matter is it's different than connection. I mean, obviously there's connection involved to be able to find the mattering. But it's it's like down I don't know if deeper is the right word. It's another level into you know being connected or being with or being in relationship with someone right. It's another thing. It's another component. And that that for me was helpful in getting to the language of this because I think my first response was well this is just being in connection with right. Like the thing we know we do as humans that's good for our mental health, which is to be in community. But then when we were talking about it, it was kind of like, but no, but here but why this is important on top of the being in community with because of the reciprocal feeling it creates right and the ability for the person to feel the feeling. Yeah. And in the article that we are talking about, she even talks about the serve and return in that it's not just that I smile and my caregiver smiles back at me. It's that whole process of I am doing something that matters enough to them that they're going to respond to that. And I matter enough that they're going to respond like it's like I am worth their time. They take delight in me. Well, and also that like I influenced that they influenced it. That's the part that's part of this that was really great for me is thinking about that the ownership you get over actually bringing value like my smile. I brought the smile of my parent. My action did something. Which I think is a little bit more than just delighting in. Like I can watch my baby sleeping and smile and think they're glorious. Sure. And they're completely unaware. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let's hope so. They're asleep. Yeah. Yeah. Let's hope they're really asleep, otherwise, I'm not feeling those good feelings probably. They're awake, and it's the middle of the night, and now I'm not feeling great. But when my child smiles at me and I smile back, they have a part in that. The ownership, they know they influenced. That some of that response from you, right? And it actually made me think of the like circular nature of this and that she talks a lot about that is that my baby is feeling that they matter that they have value when I smile back. But also as a parent, I'm feeling valuable, right? Like I matter to my baby. Yeah. You know, like when I smile and my baby smiles or I say their name and they look at me like, it's happening for both parties, right? I matter to my baby, my baby, and then my baby feels like they matter to me. Yeah. That valuable feeling that I remember thinking as well during during reading this and the use of the language that this is a protective factor on the you know in the theory of risk and protective factors. Yeah, we use it in the substance abuse prevention world, but I know it's used in other worlds to social work, maybe counseling you can find it there as well. Thomas and Chess, I believe, are the researchers who developed the risk and protective factors model. And there's like a list of, well, there's now I'm sorry, I'm getting my my research in my mind, jumbled. But anyway, the idea of risk and protective factors is that we all experience risks in our world and in our lives, and we all experience protective, protective events in our lives and so for example, if I go if I live in a neighborhood with a lot of high crime that might be a risk factor, but if I go to a really good school, that's a protective factor. Right. So there are these things inside of us and outside of us, happening in our development as children happening in our existence as families in neighborhoods and. Giving back to your community is a protective factor, and it I've never seen it used with the terminology of mattering. It's the the verbiage that's described in the protective factors model as a protective factor. I've never seen the word "matter" in there, but it is the essence of what they're talking about, so they'll say getting kids involved in volunteerism is a protective factor. It's a protective factor, you know, when kids do well in their grades, right, we give them a certificate of an honor role, that's a protective factor because we're acknowledging their effort and their work. And I can find mattering in so many pieces of that theoretical model of protective factors. And I think that's hugely important to recognize here not not just from an early childhood lens, but even from gosh working with older children to right, I mean, we're all kind of in coordination with one another in the neighborhoods that we live. And so that came to mind too as I was reading through the article. And she does talk about an ecosystem, right, so it's that it is not I also like that about this because it it is important. I mean, I feel like this speaks to what we experience as humans. I do want to feel like my life matters, right? I want to feel like there's some meaning to what I'm doing and that people notice it, right, and that they again that whole thing to me, the idea that people notice and would miss it if I wasn't there, right? I just think that captures it, you know, in the communities in which I live, I want people to notice that I'm here and what I'm contributing. And if I'm not there, then they would miss that piece. It wouldn't exist because I bring that. I think that's what makes it matter, makes me matter. And the idea that kids, like we can start this process when they're little. It reminds me of I used to teach, well, teach as a loose word. I used to hold a class for mostly toddlers and preschoolers that were about to become big brothers and big sisters. They were about to have a baby in their family, right, so it was really just about kind of talking about and celebrating and thinking about, you know, just exploring that with them at the level that they could. And you know, parents love it and they get a certificate that can go in the, you know, their little book or whatever. And I think you and I even talked about this, there's something to being a big brother or big sister. It, well, it adds to you who you are. It adds to you. You aren't it matters. It turns out you are not a little sister without a big sister. Right. Right. Yeah. And so, kind of this idea that even in that class, letting them know how much it matters that they're going to be the big brother or big sister. And letting them participate in the ways that they can. I mean, we had, it was really a cute class. So the same babies I would use in the baby care basics class where the parents would practice diapering and doing all that. We did that with the little kids with the baby dolls. I mean, they're really not going to change the diaper, but they might be able to take the diaper to the trash. Yeah. Right. If they're like a three or four year old. And so, thinking about that class and this lens of mattering, like helping them see how they get to be, they matter for their new baby. Yeah. Right. And helping the parents see, because the parents were there too. Yeah. And giving them little tidbits to use about about letting their other sibling help and have, you know. And I would talk to the little kids about, I don't know what it is, but little babies love other kids. And yeah, they laugh harder for little kids than they do for their parents. Like parents can try to get a baby to laugh and nothing. And then their big sister, big brother just makes a silly face and they're like, just fallen out. They can't handle the laughter. And just thinking about, like, I wasn't thinking at that time. But when I think about that class in this lens, that is part of that ecosystem of mattering. They came to an official class at the hospital. Where they learned from a teacher. How much they're going to matter for their little baby. And then their parents can be reinforcing for them along the way. And how, like you were saying, that is a protective factor for them. It is part of that confidence building. And they talked about how like, that's how your brain grows. This pleasure in like doing good feels good. Yeah, in the risk and protective factors model, I think the terminology is proud. The feeling of pride being a protective factor. You know, that, oh, I'm on stage receiving a certificate, you know, as a honor roll or whatever. That when I feel pride because I've contributed and I've done something good, then it hits the reward center in my brain. And the reward center in my brain seeks that again. And if what I did was good and was good for me and the community or my family or my little brother or my mom, then you know, we would want more of that. So something that was contribution and good for the world, hit the reward center in my brain. And so that's what I want to do. So that's the cycle we want, rather than the other ways which are negative, that hit the reward center in our brain that become repetitive. And so that's what they talk about it in the risk and protective factors model. And I feel like that is kind of how she just, she didn't maybe use those words. But it is like a, what are those loops that keep themselves going? Right? So it's like what you just described. I feel good when I do this good thing. And then I want to do it again. When I'm doing that good thing and so then it becomes the way I am the way I am. Yeah. Something I thought was interesting in the article was that she said it is important to use the word helper instead of just naming the behavior. Right? That is part of the mattering. Like I am a helper. She was given the example like if your child is helping with chores. You say, too, that they are a helper. And to also connect it to how it actually is valuable. Like if you're, if it's setting the table, right? Like maybe one parent is cooking and another one is, has another kid they're dealing with. And it's like you are helping, you're a helper by setting the table so that we can all sit down and eat. Mm-hmm. Is a way to connect what they're doing to the needs of another person. Right? That was part of the thing, she, that this builds in them that perspective taking. Mm-hmm. That when I do this, it is beneficial to the other person. The other person has needs and I can meet those needs by doing this thing. And I'm valuable because I made that easier, did that thing. You know, because the, whatever goes after that makes sense, right? But because of what I did, it influenced it. Yeah. And it makes me think about how teenagers are really good at like knowing our BS. Right? And so they know, they know, they know if what they're doing is helpful. I guess I'm just thinking if we just say like you're a great kid, you're a great kid and they're like, oh, you know. What is it? What am I doing? That's so, I mean, you're just saying that because you're my mom, or you're just saying that because you like me. I'm a good student. You know, like they're just saying that. Oh, like every teacher says this is the best class I've ever had. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas this tying it to what they're doing as being specific to them and that it matters that they're there because without them, it wouldn't be the same. Yeah. Is really different. Like, you know, this class is really great because we have great discussions in here is really different. Right? Then you're the best class I've ever had. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't have these same discussions in all my classes. This class really goes deeper or whatever the thing is. The thing is using the, it's calling it what it is. Yeah. And using that, is just making me think about the last, the 15-hour course that we just wrapped up. It, just for context for the audience, we're recording this in December of 2025, but I just finished a 15-hour course training course that I do that I've been teaching for a couple of years and I'm retiring the program. And the last group that I had to come through it. This fall was the most inspiring group. I've, I've ever had in this course. And I don't know if I use the specific enough language, but it, they mattered because when we were not together, they were missed and when we were together, what they said was so valuable and relatable and people were making connections. And there was so much wisdom in the room. Yes. And everybody really brought their full selves in a different way than what I've seen before in similar settings. And so now my brain is like thinking about that because I don't think I used the terminology in our.. I think you did, but, so I was in that class. Yeah, I was in our, I was in that class. I wasn't in any of the other ones. So I have no idea, but I will say this group. I got so much from them. Like when you were saying the wisdom in the group, I got so much from them. More than I expected, I didn't realize I wasn't expecting it, I guess, but then I just got so much from our discussions and. It and in this context of mattering, it would have been different if it hadn't been those people. Of course, oh yeah, what if, right, right, right? So it mattered that they were the ones that were in that group together. Yeah, in that space, which was, I mean, I'm glad I got to be one of those people. I know. Me too. It was, it was so great. It's, it's kind of taking me back. I'm looking at the article here. And there's this, this little section, you know, that talks about mattering versus belonging. And I think I was trying to find those words a minute ago when I was talking about like being in community, but that there is a nuanced specificity there. And what the article says is belonging refers to whether or not you're in that community, right? That you maybe that you fit in or you could use whatever language to kind of say that, but that mattering encompasses whether we feel valued within our community and whether what we do makes a difference. And I could argue, you know, people that have attended my course before all belong had belonging in there. And I'm not trying to say the other courses didn't matter because they did, but this one was just special in a different way. And it was the contribution, right? It was the value of the contribution that the people brought into the group, but also that I think they recognize that they brought in that they recognize how it influenced the group as a whole too. So the example here, the article is you can belong to a classroom or a team or workplace or even a family and still not feel like you matter. But mattering when you when you feel and also that you feel that you matter, right? Other people can tell you all day that you matter, but like I think part of this concept of mattering is that I get to feel it from within myself. But when you feel you matter, it ensures not only that you have a place, but that your presence and contributions truly count and make a difference. Yeah. And there's a few other things that she talks about in the article and one of them is I mean in the work that we do. There are populations of people, because of racism because of policies, they are made to feel like they don't matter. Oh, for sure. And so for us to keep that in mind when we're working with children and families, that they may not be getting that supportive ecosystem. And the community is where the schools are the teachers are telling them they matter. The neighborhoods they live in, they feel like they are able to bring value. It may be that their neighborhoods are over policed and so there's messaging around that their neighborhoods aren't where good things happen. And so that that also is important in this ecosystem that when we're working with families, we are aware of that broader ecosystem and how can we help the children and the families that we're working with understand their value and what they're bringing. And that can be really tough if you're working with a parent who's never felt like they've mattered. And that may be a starting place too right? Because I'm thinking through risk and protective factors, right? And if you have someone who grew up just in all this risk and those there's always a protective factors always every every every one of them. Maybe they've been limited or maybe they've never felt a sense of pride or maybe the only pride they ever felt was what they did for someone else that asked them to do something that wasn't good, you know, like initiation behavior, things that can be really negative and I remember working with a client one time, and we were doing a goals worksheet, you know, like setting goals short term midterm and long term goals. And I didn't realize that we were about 10 minutes into the activity before it. I became aware of the fact that a client, her only definition of a goal was like a like a goal post on a field. She had never heard the term goal in relationship to something she would plan in her life to achieve for herself. So she would so the worksheet made no sense to her because in her mind the definition of a goal was a concrete object, you know, a physical thing at the end of a football field. And in thinking through that I started thinking wow I bet this client has never had any opportunity to feel a sense of pride like internally from something that she has done in her life right. And so I think it's important to understand how this is influenced in child development, but that as we're working with families as well, we may have opportunities with parents where this if they've never felt mattered. That that could be a starting point. Well, absolutely. It can be a starting point. Well, she even says in the article, I'm going to quote, I'm going to read this from the paper. I actually have it in front of me. Adults who feel they matter are more likely to offer attuned responsive care. And when children see the adults in their lives acting and speaking as if they feel valued. And when those adults affirm that children are important, it creates this cycle where the adults healthy sense of mattering strengthens the child's own foundations of feeling valued. And just thinking through like, I mean, I feel like this comes up so much in infant mental health work strengthening the parents is going to strengthen the babies. Yeah. And I also think another tool for helping engage parents is to show them how much they matter to their baby. Right. Because like you said, they may not be used to feeling like they bring value in that they matter. Whatever reasons and for the whole host of reasons that we've already discussed and more that we aren't even aware of. But when they can see how much they matter to their baby. And they can start to see some of those like serve and return interactions and you know our role as infant mental health providers if we can narrate some of that for them and kind of translate. What the babies messaging is and how delighted they are by the parent and how much what the parent is doing is making a difference for the baby. That grows that sense of mattering. Right. I matter as their parent. I matter. It matters that I'm here. I always try to encourage the parents that it matters that you're their parent, not just someone right, not just any parent. Right. Yeah. You. Yeah. You are the one. You're the one. You're their parent. So that doesn't mean you're perfect. It doesn't mean. But it means they need you. And you have things to offer to them that only you can. Only you. You're unique. It's there's a little bit of unique and unique edge in there. Right? Like I am special, because I am me, and I'm different than everyone else, and I and I bring that. You know. Yeah, I think so too. And if it wasn't me, it would be different than it is. It would be different than it is. And I would be missed. It's funny. I usually, when I'm talking about it, I talk about it like it's a different flavor. Because it might be the same thing. Right? Like it might be. Okay. Yeah. But I'm even just thinking like I'm just thinking everybody changes the baby's diaper. Yeah. And also we all do it differently, not in a way that we would even know probably. I mean, I'm not paying attention to how other people are changing diapers. I don't know about you. But right. But I'm just thinking the way you talk, how gentle you are with the cold wipes. Do you warm them? All the things. Like we're all doing the diaper changes, and also we all do it in our own way. And even to a baby and it's probably especially to a baby whose whole world is sensory. Yeah. It is noticing all those differences. Well, I mean, attunement is one of in the article, one of the core building blocks of mattering. And that's what I'm thinking of as you're talking about, you know, this very specific example of changing a diaper. But that's an that's an opportunity for attunement, right? Like you've got the baby laying there. Are they wiggly? Are they awake? Are they frustrated? Are they wanting, you know, and then we're thinking about cold wipes versus warm wipes and, you know, the primary caregiver. Usually we just say mom. It can be others, you know, we know that happens. But like in this situation of mattering particularly if mom is not realizing that she could matter to her infant, a lot of parents, you know, they don't. If they haven't studied child development, they don't know that the child's brain is able to even understand that someone matters to them. And we all know that's not happening like cognitively in the verbal. It's it's a much deeper foundational level of brain activity. But if you don't study child development, it would be easy to think, oh, my baby's just a blank slate. They just need me to, you know, meet their basic needs, change this diaper and be done. And so if we think about being attuned, well, I'm the prime. And I realize my baby likes the warmer wipes or my baby doesn't like the warmer wipes. Well, that's different than the babysitter who just comes in and changes the diaper however they do. And so attunement coming into this as like our ability to attend to the child in the way that we are able and that the way that the child needs us to and dancing there is is a piece of this mattering. Yeah, that's where that kind of begins in that. Yeah, and as you're saying that it's just making me think about the uniqueness of it, like we exist together. Me and baby in a unique way that is not happening with anyone else. In anybody else, yeah, it's our thing. It's our thing. And even with my, because I've got two of them, even with my other kid, I'm not the same as I am with the one kid. Right. Well, that, yeah, they require us to be different. Right. Well, but I mean, I'm the same parent and I'm like still that they are influencing me. Yeah, I am showing up differently because of their influence. Over me. And it's kind of interesting to think about. Yeah, it is. And how much that must seem like you are important in the world. Yeah. That your life matters that you matter that people, you would be missed if you weren't here. I keep getting this imagery of a puzzle, you know, and a piece missing, how frustrating is it when you finish a puzzle in that last piece is just like the cat carried it off somewhere? Right. But I mean, it is because it's just this small thing, but it like interrupts the whole flow. It interrupts the whole picture. So even a tiny baby, you know, if they're missing can interrupt the whole unit. Yeah. And you know, they have to, or we come, I mean, maybe I think this article stood out to me because again, it's naming something that I have been thinking about. And we talked about it even when I was telling the story of the, what it must be like to be a baby when your whole family is waiting in the waiting room to be born. I was thinking about that conversation too, the anticipation, the preparation, the, yeah, how much you matter. That they were anticipating you and they were waiting for your arrival and celebrating your you coming into this world. And think about the opportunities for now I'm thinking about my daughter's basketball game last night. Because they had, for whatever reason, they were down several players. And just thinking about their contributions and how they were missed when they weren't there and how the whole team was different. Yeah, members weren't present last night. All these are opportunities for kids to feel like they matter to recognize. Yeah, and that is making me that's just connecting me back to part of the risk and protective factors model being on a team is a protective factor. And like I'm having light bulbs just because I've been so familiar with that model since probably 2008. Right. And I've worked in that world. And now I'm like, oh, but there's the why like I knew a protective factor was be on a team. And I'm sure I could have talked about why but the word matter just really gets at the core. It's like it really really clearly defines why that is so protective. And how it is it is bigger than just belonging or different than just belonging. Yes, yes, it is. And how I mean, even before you were talking and I was thinking about when we talk about the parallel process, we talk a lot about how supervisors interact with their staff. And how staff need to know that they matter. And bosses need to know that they matter. And agencies need to know that they matter. Right? Right. And it's, I'm just thinking in our kind of in the world that we're living in. I think a lot of people might be experiencing almost a society that anyone could just do your job. You're just like a cog in the wheel. Right. And that's not really accurate. Certainly not for home visiting. No, population that we work with. No, and I used to think about that when I worked for Child Protective Services. It really depends on the worker you get. It really does. Your whole case trajectory. Yes, it really does. And that's, that matters. I'm thinking about that even with elementary. So like this depends on the teacher you get. Right. It's a bit gosh, you could almost apply that statement to any situation. It depends on the coach you get. And so then to think about when we think about the parallel process, how do we let everyone know how they fit, what they bring, how they're valuable, how they matter? So then that they offer that to everyone else. I think that's a really individual answer. You know, like I think I'm well, I guess I'm thinking like I'm thinking I'm coming out that I'm wanting to answer your question. And I'm trying to answer your question. I'm like, well, if I was a manager, you know, if I had a group or if I was a teacher and I had a classroom of students well actually I do. That's an individual message. You know, that's a I pulled up the article again. There's this area. It's the core building blocks of mattering. So attunement is one. I always think of infant care when I think of attunement just because that's the context in which I've always used that term. But you can be attuned as adults too, but there's also recognition. You know that you, that you and your actions are valued and your absence will be felt, and then there's reliance. You feel needed because others depend on you. You feel important. You feel significant because you're prioritized and ego extension, which is you feel cared for because because others are invested in your well being. And so I'm trying I'm trying to take those five points and go into well, I would I would bring those together with each individual. If I'm thinking of my students, I've eight students in my class. And so I'm like, how do I do those five things as I get to know this student and that student and that student to send this message of mattering because I but well for me, I wouldn't be able to just blanket you all matter because it's kind of like you're best class I ever had. It's so non-specific, right? That you've got to you've got to relay it. You've got to build a relationship in a way that is really understood because it does depend on the other person having that feeling. I think you're I mean, yes, it does. And I think one of the things she says, which of course I cannot find while I'm trying to be present with you and record a podcast. But she talks about the noticing of it. So I think one step would just as a supervisor, a home visitor, a teacher, whatever your role is to just notice the people that you're with, right? And notice what is specific to them. Build on those and that makes me think of building on those strengths, right? Like if you can notice what someone really is good at and what they can contribute and bring, then that's what you ask of them, right? And then they get an opportunity to really shine and feel that pride and know that it mattered that it was them, that it was them. You know, I mean, because if it's something I'm good at and I'm asked to do it and I do it well, then I know it was because of me, not just anybody maybe could have done it to the level that I was able to do it. Right. And I don't think it's about comparison as much as just knowing that it mattered that I was that I did it and it was successful because it was me. Right. I mattered. Right. Right. Yeah. I was starting to tease off the comparison there too, but it took me to a memory of earlier this semester with a student I have. Who is well, all my students are great. They really are. They're in grad school. They've gotten to this point. Like they're they want to be where they are. And it's a small group. So it's really easy to get to know them. This particular student is, you know, more introverted, more quiet. I can tell she's paying attention. She's present. She's there, but she's not vocal, right. Just difference in personality. I mean, you know, lots of things. Well, I remember earlier in the semester, I asked her to do something for me. And it was an online thing. It was a behind the scenes. Hey, you know, coordinate the class, get them together. Let them know this thing. Just kind of data thing. And it did have to be her. And I could have asked any of them to do it. But regardless of because anybody could have got the thing done. It had to be her because I asked her to do it. Like that's what it was. And this isn't about me so much as, I mean, I was intentionally engaging her in that way because, you know, I knew that I could. And I knew she'd be good at it. And any of them would have got the thing done. But like it needed that it just needed to be her because it needed to be her. Well, and as you said that because of the ask. Once it was asked of her, then it was hers to do it. Exactly. And it wouldn't have been. Yeah. And it wouldn't have been done if she didn't do it. Right? Exactly right. Because it was a thing that like I probably needed to do. But I was like, I wan't going to get to this as quickly as I need to. And I know this person can. So it provided a solution in multiple contexts, not just relieving me, but also then getting the information out to everybody else who needed it. Yeah, that makes it that broadens it. So I was thinking more specific, but now that you're saying that even some of these examples like setting the table. It just needs to be done. And if you do it, it gets done. And if you don't do it, it's not, you know, then it might take 10 more minutes for us to eat dinner because then. Right. I'm going to have to do that as well as. And like in our family, we don't like literally set the table. We usually just make our plates. But usually how it ends up is we're making our plates to take to the table. Somebody's setting out the placemats. Someone's grabbing silverware and napkins or paper towels. That's what we use as. It's not fancy around here. You don't have reusable cloth napkins that you wash every day. I mean, I have them. I don't use them every day. Christmas day. You'll have them out. Well, I actually use them. This is a tangent. But I use them when I make the totillsd because I put them in there and they stay warm. But so they get used, but not as napkins. And then. But yeah, and everyone pitches in. There's a sense of like family and community and we're pulling this thing together. And I mean, we're not thinking that every night when we're sitting down to dinner, of course. But you know, right? If I'm thinking about it, it's like, yeah. And people say, I'm going to grab this. I'll grab this. Let me get this. And it's a sense that we're in this together. Mm-hmm. Even if it's just dinner. Mm-hmm. So even those smaller things. Yeah. All the little things. They're cumulative. They're cumulative. Yeah. They're cumulative. And being asked to do something. Well, it depends on how you ask it, right? But children appreciate because it's this idea that, oh, I'm capable. I can do that thing. Maybe I didn't know I could do that thing. I'm going back to young children now too. Right. Like, oh, well, mom always folds the laundry or whatever, because, you know, we got to grow to a certain coordinate, like get coordinated with our muscles. But, but, um, but, you know, I was asked because I'm capable to. And, you know, in parenting theory, right? Children who grow up in families with chores, actually, they get this. And that again is a protective factor in the permissive model of, I just don't ever have to do anything. Sounds nice in the moment, maybe, but individuals don't develop. Yeah. They don't always respond quite so well through development and into becoming adults. If we don't have any responsibilities ever to contribute back to our family, the community where we live. Absolutely. Well, and part of the things, I mean, how you grow self-confidence is you accomplish things. Like, that is what is growing that in your brain. Mm-hmm. You try something that you tried something and you succeeded at it. Mm-hmm. And so, especially, I mean, if we're talking chores, little kids want to do chores. They do. They want, I mean, in the classroom, as we've been talking, I keep thinking of a toddler classroom, right? And I'm like, man, every toddler wants to be picked to wipe the table that day. I mean, right? Every toddler wants to be the line leader for that day. You know, we see this in elementary school too. They're just eager to help. It's like the natural way. Yeah. Well, I mean, they, that's about figuring out we're social creatures. Mm-hmm. It's like, how do, how do I fit into this? How do, how do I, I mean, I, we have a sense of wanting to contribute. Mm-hmm. I'm sure it comes from our biological need to be in community. Mm-hmm. So, with that, I need my community to need me. Exactly. I need them and I need them to need me. So, what do I do? How do I plug in? How do I contribute in a way that they're going to see me as valuable and keep me around? Mm-hmm. And that if that's baked into our biology, then as little kids, that's part of us practicing growing up. Right. I was thinking about this the other day, um, I was having this conversation with my husband actually about I think we've gotten into a place where we think we have to teach our kids explicitly. So many things like we need to talk it out in a way that, um, like a lecture where we show them the power points and then they can totally understand what we're asking. But partly they learn how to be grown-ups by being around grown-ups. Yeah. And doing grown-up things. Like, we're cooking dinner and we're going to sit down to dinner and they get to be part of that and do their piece. Like, that's part of how, and it's not required that I give them a lecture on personal responsibility in the family. Right. Right. Right. They are in this family they participate, they see how the grown-ups are and she talks about that in the article two, like being around grown-ups who have know that they matter and that live their lives that way. And they're contributing because they know their contribution matters. Mm-hmm. That shows you how to be a grown-up. Mm-hmm. Right. That's what grown-ups do in my circle. Yeah. Even if they don't think about it that way. Right. Right. That's just part of how you learn how to be a grown-up. And so I feel like this mattering is part of that. That practicing of like little kids really wanting to help and they're wanting to do the chores and they feel they want to dress in your clothes and you know all those things. They're just trying to figure out how they're going to fit. How am I going to be a grown-up here? I see those grown-ups. They're so important. How do I fit into this world? But yeah, I really, again, for me, it was really just naming a thing the words. And a concept that I had thought about because I mean, as I started the conversation, this idea of just like. Kids just being little princes and princesses that don't have any responsibilities or don't owe the world anything. Yeah. I don't think, I think that is part of what's leading to so much anxiety. Whereas when you know that you matter, you contribute. It's just a different kind of existence. Yeah, but it brings you back to the kind of that world view of the world. There's this thing that's bigger than me. Because that is the reality, right? We've got the whole world around us. Yeah, it actually makes me think of being grounded. Because I'm actually sometimes I think the act of doing is grounding. We can get ourselves all like swirled up with thinking about how it would be or what it would be. Or I can't do this or I, you know, basically all the thoughts. But if you're just doing the thing, then you can do it. You can do it. And maybe you have never done this thing, but you've been your whole life doing things and doing them. So probably you could do this one too. I think it was in, I was in a conversation in the last few days. Now I'm trying to remember where that was. I think it was my reflective consultation session where you know, a lot of my consultation sessions right now can easily get stuck in how tough the world is right now and how tough non profit is right now and the lack of funding and the restrictive policy or, you know, whatever it might be. And my reflective consultant mentioned how, you know, holding space for that is important. And maybe we don't have a solution or resolution, but that I'm also taking action. And being helpful. So, you know, we're not just taking action, but it's like, yes, I'm feeling worried that I'm going to have a job. And I can volunteer at the food bank or, you know, maybe something that's more aligned to what you're where he is, but that when you take action, you actually, you know, are regaining some control over the influence that you have that you matter in the ways that you can. So even when something is uncontrollable that maybe you're worrying about or having anxiety about that when you do take action and something that is within your means, kind of counter balances that a little bit. And I don't remember where I was in that conversation recently, but it was helpful to think about, well, if it feels good to me to make an action out of this, then do that thing if it's useful. I think so. And as you're saying that, it's just making me think about how getting our bodies involved can help get us out of our thinking. You know, that swirling. Yeah. And sometimes that anxiety is energy. And doing something helps dissipate energy, right? Yes, right? Whereas just sitting there, like a tornado, just like getting more and more energy swirling swirling swirling, sometimes doing something can help dissipate that energy, not that it's better, right? Or that you're not still worried, but just that intensity can be kind of dispersed by doing. And then again, doing something that is going to matter in the ecosystem in which you live in my husband's family, we joke and we call it. Hate cleaning. Oh, like when we're really mad, there are people in the family that will like all of a sudden their house will get spotless. Yeah, I've been there. But it's the same idea, right? Like this energy has to go somewhere. Let's make it useful. Let's make it useful. That's funny. That's funny that that came into my mind. But yeah, so I found this really helpful. There were the there's like 11 steps at the end. And it was practice, serve and return daily. These are for young children to develop a strong sense, but I mean serve and return happens as adults too. We've had this conversation before. Modeling repair. It I mean, think about what it must feel like for a kid when an important adult person that you respect comes to you and makes a repair when they've done something wrong. How important you must be to them that they would do that, like thinking from the eyes of a child. Know the child like it's know them what they like all that's we kind of talked about that one. Oh, they she does say something that was really helpful the anti-mattering, noticing the messages kids get that they don't matter. And trying to counteract some of those messages or at least give them other messages of mattering. And then encourage them to contribute that was with chores or helping that whole thing about calling them a helper not just pointing out that they helped. But that part of their identity as a human is that they are helpful that they help. That they give back. In some ways that they can contribute. And to support excluded or isolated children, especially if you're in a classroom, man, it's so hard when you see like that one kid that's really struggling. For whatever reasons to connect with the other kids and help facilitate that when you can, especially if you're in those kind of situations. Value caregivers. We talked about this the parents, the teachers. We want to show them how they matter. That helps their kids ecosystem of mattering. And then there's even some for like nonprofit leaders. Treat people as though they matter. For individuals beyond their case file. For business leaders to treat their employees like they matter. But it's not just that they're a cog in the wheel. That it matters that you're the person here doing this job and we value that. And then even they even goes to as far as policy makers. To invest in supports for children and caregivers like the home visiting, the paid leave, the ways we can value them. The better off our kids are going to be. I liked that it ended with these steps. That's that was the last thing I was going to say is we wrap this up. I love the format of this article. It is it is um it's 11 pages. So you know, I don't know if you define that as a lengthy, but sometimes for me I can be like, oh, that's a lot to kind of get through. There's a lot of words on the page, but it is it is formatted very nicely. So it makes it kind of an easy read. And then every few pages they have this like block of a of a highlights of content that you can kind of dive into those areas and then backtrack. That's kind of how my brain works. But it does wrap up on the final page with these 11, you know strategies like it says 11 ways to help young children develop a strong sense of mattering. And I, for me, that goes a long way in offering up a publication because I can find some high points really quick and then back into details as I want to or need to. But I just I think they did a nice they did a nice job on the publication here. I think so too. And if I read something like this to have there be steps that I can take. Like I learned this information and here is what I can do with it. I find that really concrete and helpful. Yes. It's funny that you say that about the way it's written. I'm in the process of teaching my 15 year old daughter how to read a textbook and that is what you do right because she's got some courses that are like AP. That advanced placement courses and so there's it's heavy on the reading. Like a college class. Yeah. She's like mom and there also there's videos that they she's supposed to be watching. It's just a lot of content. And it was funny. I told her I was like this is how you read the you don't read it word-for-word. Right. You're going to go to the chapter that you're supposed to be learning about. Yep. You're going to read over those headings. You're going to go read the summary. And if there are things that when you read the summary and the headings you're like I need to know more about this. Then you're going to go back and get the detail that you need. And then you're going to watch the video because she's like when I watch the videos I feel like I should have background knowledge. So then you'll watch the video and then if there are things in the video that you still don't understand you'll go back and find it. When a test review question pops up and you're like oh I missed that in the summary and you go find it. That's what the video said and then the last step is you go through the little the practice quiz. And the same thing when you wait a minute I don't know the answer then you go back and find it. It's like it is. It's always interesting to me there are just things ways of being that I forgot that I had to learn that something wrong way. You just think you always knew that. Or you did learn it. I never thought about it. I just do it. I just do it. And so I didn't think oh there was a time that I didn't know that I learned this. Yeah. And that I learned it and so I was like here's try this because you know I have a teenager so I can't it can't be too prescriptive. Because then it's like no you don't know anything mom. You don't know anything. But this article is written in a very easy like that you can read it and like it's easy. I agree. I'm going to link it in the show notes. Yeah. Well Natalie you matter. It matters that you're with me on this podcast. You matter too, Amy. If it wasn't you and me it would be different. It would be different. I was actually just as we were wrapping up I was thinking man it is interesting that it is you and me and it would be a different podcast if it wasn't us so good. I appreciate what you bring and you would be missed if you were. I would be missing you on the podcast. Oh my gosh though I watched that Netflix rom com we're into the Christmas rom coms right now everyone. That is what I do I have two daughters we watch them at Christmas time there's a new one called Champagne Problems and I don't know if this is accurate or not accurate for French people if you're French just let me know I could be spreading lies. I'm trying I'm just going off what a fictional story said on Netflix. But he was saying that in France we don't say I miss you we say you're missing from me. So I've been saying that probably I better look it up now that I even just said it on the podcast I should do a fact checking I remember how that's how you said it to me so yeah you weren't on this podcast with me. Yes I would be missing from you you would be missing from me yeah which I was like that's a very endearing way it is it is way more impact it is more mattering yes right you would be missing like a part of you would be missing if you were not here. That's how that sounded to me and I was like oh that matters. Well that wraps up our last episode for 2025. You really matter to us. We appreciate that you listen to our podcast. Please reach out to us amy@theinfantmentalhealthpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. We read every email, and we'd love ideas comments other topics we could have on the show. All of that is so helpful to us. Have a wonderful holiday season. Have a very happy New Year, and we will be back with you in 2026.[Music]