Episode 48: From What Happened to What’s Possible

In this episode, we explore what it means to move beyond a solely trauma-informed lens and begin focusing on what’s possible.

While trauma-informed care is essential, we discuss the importance of not allowing trauma to become the defining narrative. People are more than what has happened to them. Each person holds the capacity for growth, connection, and a life full of meaning.

Together, we reflect on how we can hold both truths: honoring past experiences while also keeping our eyes on who someone is becoming. What does it look like to support not just healing—but hope, identity, and forward movement?

Transcript

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Amy Zuniga: Hi, and welcome to the Infant Mental Health Podcast. I'm Amy.

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Natalie Aviles: And I'm Natalie.

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Amy Zuniga: And this is episode 48.

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Amy Zuniga: So, this is the first time in 2026 that Natalie and I, just the two of us, are sitting down to do a podcast, and I'm kind of just excited to

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Amy Zuniga: Pick your brain a little bit, talk to you, hear your thoughts. I feel like we haven't done this in a while.

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Natalie Aviles: It's been a while, and I've missed it, too.

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Amy Zuniga: Me too! When we were scheduling this, I was realizing, I mean.

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Amy Zuniga: I love interviews, let's be clear. We learn so much from our inner… the people that we interview, I love them, and also, I love our conversations, and so I really miss that.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah. Somehow.

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Amy Zuniga: be.

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Amy Zuniga: Feels a little bit like coming home. Yeah, it does. It does.

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Natalie Aviles: First time in 2026.

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Amy Zuniga: For the first time in 2026. So…

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Amy Zuniga: Today, when we were kind of thinking through what we wanted to

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Amy Zuniga: basically what this podcast usually is, is Natalie and I have something that we want to process and think through, and so we take this as an opportunity to do that with all of you. So that's kind of where we are, the last

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Amy Zuniga: Podcast, when we interviewed.

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Amy Zuniga: Carly Shrimple, the therapist in Utah, she said something that we've been thinking about, that trauma's not forever, it's not…

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Amy Zuniga: What was it?

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Amy Zuniga: Was it Traumas Up Forever?

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah, I think she said trauma is not forever, meaning that it doesn't have to define you. I mean, certainly, if you've experienced trauma, it will carve out some pieces of you that stay with you forever, but that doesn't then determine that you are experiencing trauma for your whole life.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? Or that it… It determines how you behave, and what you… who you become.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Moving forward.

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Amy Zuniga: And so then, Natalie and I were at the…

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Amy Zuniga: First 3 Years Advocacy Award Conference last Thursday and Friday.

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Amy Zuniga: And Dr. Joshua Sparrow was the keynote speaker, and he reiterated that.

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Amy Zuniga: in his talk.

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Amy Zuniga: And I think that we were just really sitting with that and thinking about how that's changing.

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Amy Zuniga: And he even was saying, there used to be such an emphasis on the trauma part of it.

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Amy Zuniga: But one of the things he said in that regard is one of the steps is, like.

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Amy Zuniga: stepping into who I want to become.

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Amy Zuniga: Regardless of what has already happened to me.

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Amy Zuniga: And I think in the work that we're doing in infant mental health.

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Amy Zuniga: I mean, I do think that is part of our hope, We're trying to… Help.

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Amy Zuniga: Caregivers, right?

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Amy Zuniga: Step into the kind of caregiver they want to be.

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Amy Zuniga: We're hoping that children get to step into the world and have the best possible life available to them.

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Amy Zuniga: And so, kind of that idea that regardless of what happened already.

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Amy Zuniga: It just feels so much more hopeful to be, like, pulling… it feels like, you know, pulling someone toward something that is…

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Amy Zuniga: better.

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Amy Zuniga: The light. Yeah, the light, and where I came from.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah, I've, I've… Spent a lot of my career early on, and a lot of intensive hours in learning.

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Natalie Aviles: trauma-informed care, and the Adverse Childhood Experiences study, and then becoming a statewide trainer for ACEs, and…

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Natalie Aviles: Decades, really.

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Natalie Aviles: Which is kind of crazy to think about, because it doesn't feel like it's been that long, or that I'm that old.

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Natalie Aviles: And I remember early on in my career being highly interested in the trauma, and I have students now at UTD who, all they want to do is trauma, you know? All in the trauma, it's, interesting, I guess.

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Natalie Aviles: But at some point, and this has probably been in the last 10 years, I just got worn out by it, and I think it's… it is important to understand how trauma can impact someone.

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Natalie Aviles: But if you stay there, it's… it can feel really hopeless, because that has already happened, and we don't have a time machine to go back and keep that thing from happening.

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Natalie Aviles: And so, if that's where you stop, is just you learn about the trauma, or you, you know, for yourself or a patient you're working with, whatever the case might be.

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Natalie Aviles: then it is easy to just be like, oh, wow, okay, and then not know what to do with it. And so…

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Natalie Aviles: After studying the adverse childhood experiences for several years, I learned of the positive childhood experiences, which Dr. Sparrow also referenced very, very briefly.

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Natalie Aviles: But this is the idea that in addition to, sure, you know, many of us, 70, 75% of us have had trauma in early child, you know, before the age of 18.

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Natalie Aviles: that we also all had positive childhood experiences. And we can draw on that to know, because we're all still alive. Someone was caring for us enough to keep, you know, to help us survive as human beings, and that requires a positive relationship, at least for infants, right?

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Natalie Aviles: So, that if we can counter this information, or, integrate, maybe, rather than counter.

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Natalie Aviles: But bring alongside the fact that we all also have had positive childhood experiences, even in the midst of very extreme trauma.

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Natalie Aviles: that we can take all the information and use both sides of that coin to work toward progress, because just, you know, learning about ACEs and learning how to, you know, be informed and respond to people who have had trauma is kind of a blunted approach.

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Natalie Aviles: you know, if that's all you know, or all you study. And so, this idea that trauma isn't forever, and I think, you know, I think when Carly referenced that, I really do think she meant, like, the acute experience of the thing right now. We're not trying to invalidate

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Natalie Aviles: or dismiss that, you know, our experiences have a lasting impact on us. Because they do, just like anything else, but our positive experiences also have a lasting impact on us.

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Natalie Aviles: And we can make this information useful, and use the resources and support around us to… Bye.

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Natalie Aviles: like you said, like, step into who we want to be from that, which is… yeah, which was part of Dr. Sparrow's…

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Natalie Aviles: message, too.

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Amy Zuniga: I think so, for sure, and…

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Amy Zuniga: as you were talking, I was also thinking about… he told the story of a teenager when he was working in a… as a psychiatrist, in a hospital, and she was basically…

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Amy Zuniga: Made a comment that

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Amy Zuniga: I think he said that he had asked her what has been helpful or not helpful, and she was like, if y'all would stop looking at me like I have the word damage written across my forehead.

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Amy Zuniga: And I do think… that… kind of shifting our lens a little bit, it is…

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Amy Zuniga: Not getting stuck by looking at someone who's been through something really hard and seeing that as all that they are.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: All that they can be.

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Natalie Aviles: Right,

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Amy Zuniga: It's funny, like you said, it's not about not…

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Amy Zuniga: Sitting with, or being with, the fact that it was

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Amy Zuniga: trauma. Like, no one's trying to minimize that.

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Amy Zuniga: And also, the person is not just that.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: you know, they're… they've had other experiences. They came into the world as a unique human being.

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Amy Zuniga: that exists.

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Amy Zuniga: With all the experiences they've had, both positive and negative, And how do we… as helpers.

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Amy Zuniga: Like, hold both of those things at the same time. We're wanting to help them step into the person they want to become.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: And also, we're available to be with the hard things.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? We're not trying to pretend that that didn't happen.

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Amy Zuniga: And also, you… it's not defining you for your entire life. It doesn't have to be that way.

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Natalie Aviles: Right, right.

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Amy Zuniga: And so, thinking about… I mean, I think that all of us that do that work

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Amy Zuniga: Have to have that belief somewhere deep down inside of us, because…

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Amy Zuniga: You know, we have to have some level of hope for people, or what are we doing?

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? If it really can't be better than this.

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Natalie Aviles: Well, but that makes me wonder about, you know, if we're working for an agency, more of a system-wide

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Natalie Aviles: thinking about that, right? Like, on an individual level, I think we all probably…

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Natalie Aviles: get that, like you said, deep down somewhere, or maybe it's more obvious to some people, but at a systems level.

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Natalie Aviles: you know, I… I have to dig for data on positive childhood experiences. You know, that information is not as readily available, and so if the system is saying, well, you know, we put all the staff members through trauma-informed care program training, and that's great, I'm not saying we need to stop that, right?

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Natalie Aviles: It's just, like, at that macro level, also the macro level, understanding that we… we might be walking around…

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Natalie Aviles: As… as helpers, giving off the ICU with damaged written on.

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Amy Zuniga: All over your floor.

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Natalie Aviles: forehead, and I didn't even know I was doing that, but it has to do with how the agency, you know, has trained me to think about only the trauma.

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Natalie Aviles: You know? So, like, I feel like getting beyond the individual who hears this information and understands it, and, like, making it an understanding within the system that… we keep all that, because we know all those approaches are good, and we, you know, also bring back this… this other side.

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Amy Zuniga: It's interesting, as you were saying that, this… I was actually thinking about substance abuse.

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Amy Zuniga: And I was thinking about working With that population, and there's… Really, this kind of…

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Amy Zuniga: Everybody that works in substance abuse hopes and wants people to get better, right?

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Amy Zuniga: And also… There's sort of this understanding that

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Amy Zuniga: It's hard, and it doesn't happen for a lot of people.

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Amy Zuniga: But I was just.

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Natalie Aviles: for a little while, and then people relapse, right? But there are good moments in between, you know?

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Amy Zuniga: But it was actually making me think, I wonder… I wonder if the trauma-informed care helped us more understand people's behaviors, so we stopped thinking about them as just being bad people.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? And we got kind of an explanation

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Amy Zuniga: For some of the behaviors that we see that we would say were bad… society would say was bad.

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Natalie Aviles: Right, sure, yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Right. The substance abuse, the families involved in child protective services, you know, abuse and neglect of children, like, as a society, there are behaviors that we say we don't really like.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: They're bad. And I think the trauma-informed lens helped us have an explanation

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Amy Zuniga: For some of that, that isn't just they're bad people.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Which is really helpful.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Because if they really are just bad people, there's no hope for them. Right. Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Whereas if we can start to think through that behavior has meaning, and there's been some trauma for a lot of these folks.

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Amy Zuniga: Then that helps us, but that's just, like, the next step.

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Amy Zuniga: to then… how do we then help them step into the kind of person? I just keep thinking about that, step into the kind of person that they want to be.

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Natalie Aviles: They want to be,

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Amy Zuniga: Which also… For me, I like that because it's a little bit about agency.

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Amy Zuniga: Yeah. Right?

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Amy Zuniga: Not just about the kind of person that the world wishes you would be.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Like, what kind of person do you want to be?

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: And how… From where I'm sitting, how do I help you get there?

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Amy Zuniga: And even as I'm saying that, I even feel my own internal, like, holdback, but what if the person they want to be isn't a person I think is okay? Yeah, yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Which I think is true in this kind of work. Like…

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Amy Zuniga: Being with people's choices about how they want to live.

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Amy Zuniga: Even if, I think that they would be better served doing it a different way.

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Natalie Aviles: Doing something else.

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Natalie Aviles: I wonder if it's easier… To do this whole process that you're talking about, do.

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Natalie Aviles: Witness, see, or understand with… if you're thinking about the child.

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Amy Zuniga: Being the client and helping them in that way, versus…

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Natalie Aviles: an already grown adult. Like, if we're help… I mean, obviously, in the work, we're helping children and families, but sometimes, in some roles, we're more supportive of the adult in that direct contact, and then, depending on your role, you… some of you may be more supportive

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Natalie Aviles: with children directly, and I'm just wondering how the age of the individual might influence

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Natalie Aviles: How easy it is to,

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Natalie Aviles: Kind of interpret what we're saying?

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Amy Zuniga: Oh, I absolutely… And I think it's just sort of individual.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Because it's interesting, I feel like…

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Amy Zuniga: We've had this conversation on the podcast before, but this is the 48th episode, so… I don't remember.

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Natalie Aviles: Probably repeated ourselves.

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Amy Zuniga: Yeah, a few times, right? But I feel like we've talked about this before, where…

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Amy Zuniga: for whatever reason, I think some of us have a tendency to identify more… with, like.

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Amy Zuniga: Different people in the story.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: I think before I was a mom.

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Amy Zuniga: I'm not sure I identified with the mom as much as I do know.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: And… So, for me, like.

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Amy Zuniga: Now, if you were going to tell me a story about a family that's having a struggle.

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Amy Zuniga: I'm gonna go to the place of, like, I wonder what's going on for the mom.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: First, like, that's just what's gonna go first in my mind.

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Amy Zuniga: And then I'm gonna think about… and also, probably, too, because I did home visiting, I did so much…

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Amy Zuniga: work with the parents, right? So I'm kind of going to that space.

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Amy Zuniga: Whereas… I've noticed in reflective supervision, I have to remember to bring the baby in sometimes.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah, yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? Yeah. Like, wait a minute.

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Amy Zuniga: Where's the baby in all this? How is the baby experiencing this?

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Amy Zuniga: Making sure that is part of what I'm thinking about.

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Amy Zuniga: Whereas I do think sometimes, when I'm in reflective supervision with others.

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Amy Zuniga: They may be very much focused on the child's experience.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Right. That's probably where my brain starts.

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Amy Zuniga: And then they're like…

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Amy Zuniga: then I have to… I wonder what's going on with the parent, that that would have been how they responded.

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Amy Zuniga: Right, and so I think in a similar… I mean…

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Amy Zuniga: It's not specifically age, but I think it is, right? It's like… Grown up versus child.

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Amy Zuniga: Who we think, you know, the adults hold the power and the more responsibility.

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Amy Zuniga: So that impacts how we… Think about.

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Amy Zuniga: them, and what they should and shouldn't be doing, right? Yeah.

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Natalie Aviles: Well, and maybe even potential.

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Natalie Aviles: Right? I mean, for me, it's easier if I'm looking at even a… not early childhood, like a 9-year-old child.

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Natalie Aviles: Who maybe is even having behaviors, and…

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Natalie Aviles: whatever, from life experience. Or a…

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Natalie Aviles: 29-year-old mom, I mean, my brain is just automatically gonna be more open to thinking that the child has more opportunity for change, you know, and more, like, hope in this situation. And maybe that's not totally true, it's just… it has to do with the

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Natalie Aviles: You know, what the brain is doing in the lifespan development, and then also…

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Natalie Aviles: How much life you've already lived, right?

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Amy Zuniga: I mean, I think so, and also it makes me wonder… like…

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Amy Zuniga: how much I think I have capacity or capability to shape The future for that person.

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Natalie Aviles: Oh, right, right, right. And I would certainly… if you were asking me that question, I would be like, not at all for the adult, right? Like, I don't have any influence, but I do over a child or a young child.

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Natalie Aviles: But that's not true, because we know these relationships do make huge differences.

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Natalie Aviles: For the grown-ups, but yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: it… I think about my job differently.

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Amy Zuniga: when I think about the amount of influence I have with a smaller person.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: But like you said, I mean, that's…

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Amy Zuniga: we have a lot of influence. I mean.

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Amy Zuniga: By influence with, I mean, if we have a relationship of co-regulation with a grown-up.

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Amy Zuniga: We're also… Shifting for them.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: how they can be later. I mean, that's the whole…

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Amy Zuniga: parallel process, right? The hope is that the relationship we're having with the adults

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Amy Zuniga: Then opens up something for them to offer.

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Natalie Aviles: For them.

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Amy Zuniga: Little ones in their lives.

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Natalie Aviles: And I, I, I, I almost wonder, too.

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Natalie Aviles: So, the influence that we have, or the way in which our job, you know, is open to…

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Natalie Aviles: I guess, helping an adult change in this way. Maybe the… the value right now is, especially since we kind of talked about, like, systems understanding, maybe it's even just this message of, like, this can be. I mean, like, because again, even… even in our last interview with Carly, she said trauma isn't forever, and I knew what she meant contextually in the conversation.

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Natalie Aviles: And, like, this light bulb went off, but it wasn't just a regular light bulb. It was, like, a huge fluorescent panel in a warehouse

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Natalie Aviles: head that just flipped on very quickly, and then when Dr. Sparrow reiterated the same message last week at the conference.

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Natalie Aviles: I just was thinking, you know, how many grown adults who are living their lives, who are receiving the help, who are, you know, in the system and connected to resources and services, are also getting this message? And if they think we've got

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Natalie Aviles: damaged in our eyeballs when we're looking at them, you know, and placing that sign on their forehead, then we're… we might be reinforcing the trauma is what you are, and… and…

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Natalie Aviles: even let alone helping them get to who they want to be, just sending and sharing the message that that's even an option, that you even can, you know? And that… that…

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Natalie Aviles: mustard seed might even be kind of like a starting point, because I don't know how many adults even know that the brain is still changing, and the messaging forever was.

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Natalie Aviles: The brain, you know, is fully mature at 26 to 30, depending on your gender, and it's like, okay, well, that's maturity, but that doesn't mean the brain isn't still growing and changeable.

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Natalie Aviles: And so now there's been a lot more context and conversation and specificity around the language about how we talk about that, but I mean, even an, you know, somebody in their 70s and 80s can learn something new.

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Natalie Aviles: So, if we know that neurologically, through the scientific information that we have, we can do that, then

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Natalie Aviles: We could make choices about… Being different as well.

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Natalie Aviles: Or being… stepping into who you want to be.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Natalie Aviles: But I don't know how many people even know that, right?

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Amy Zuniga: Right. Well, as you were talking, I… it's making me just wonder where this is for us, where we're getting this, and I was just…

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Amy Zuniga: like, I'm starting to just think about, in the work that we do, a lot of times we see…

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Amy Zuniga: So many barriers.

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Amy Zuniga: And what seemed like, limits?

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Amy Zuniga: that… It feels like… hard to imagine… like, I'm just thinking about specific families.

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Amy Zuniga: I'm sort of stuck back on this kid versus adult thing, so…

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Natalie Aviles: Okay.

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Amy Zuniga: I think as… with children, it's almost like we…

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Amy Zuniga: Kind of believe they can do whatever they want.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah, of course!

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Amy Zuniga: Which, if we were really honest with ourselves.

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Amy Zuniga: they also are experiencing the similar barriers. I mean, they're living in the same situation as their parents, or caregivers.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: So… I feel like there is more openness.

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Amy Zuniga: To both, and we probably… Especially to the adults, then we would… maybe…

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Amy Zuniga: Initially see, but it was making me think about ourselves and our own disappointment.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? Like, when you work with a family and you want something so badly for them.

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Amy Zuniga: And then you see the limitations and the boundary… or the barriers and all the things that are getting in the way and making it…

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Amy Zuniga: So hard.

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Amy Zuniga: That, like, holding on to that hope for the adults

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Amy Zuniga: Excuse me, is a little bit… Painful for us!

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah. Well, and maybe that's why we don't… Go there?

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Amy Zuniga: That's kind of what I was wondering.

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Amy Zuniga: Like, it… it… I mean, I don't like the feeling of disappointment.

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Natalie Aviles: No, I don't either.

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Amy Zuniga: That's actually one of my least favorite feelings, I'll be honest, and so… Holding out hope…

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Amy Zuniga: When there's a chance of disappointment, is hard.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: Whereas if you just say… if you kind of…

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Amy Zuniga: Well, when you say that damaged sign, if you're, like.

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Amy Zuniga: I mean, this is just where they are, that I'm not having to hold out that hope, and then maybe be disappointed.

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Amy Zuniga: Whereas I do think with children, we've…

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Natalie Aviles: I mean, it is more open. It's easier… it's easier to have hope with kids, I think. Because there's not a… you know, there's not a record, if you will, of life behavior.

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Natalie Aviles: you know, if I'm 30 years old, and there's a record and a pattern of my dysfunction, or function, or whatever, it doesn't have to be negative, positive, whatever.

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Natalie Aviles: that we like to think, you know, we like to talk about how history repeats itself, we could tell patterns, we judge people based on patterns, you know, and some of that is all protective in how we interpret one another.

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Natalie Aviles: But that's also an AND, we can take that information and also still be open, but there's a choice. But it's easier to do with kids because there's less history behind it, proving up the theory in our minds about how somebody is.

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Amy Zuniga: And for them themselves, proving up who they are.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah, exactly.

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Amy Zuniga: Exactly.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah, and Doctor, actually, Dr. Espero touched on this a little bit, too, in this messaging around this same topic.

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Natalie Aviles: about how sometimes individuals who have experienced trauma become… I don't know if he said trauma magnets, and I don't mean that in a condescending way at all, but, you know, this idea of if you experienced trauma.

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Natalie Aviles: then you're more likely to experience trauma, and I can't tell you the exact correlators, you know, that he identified, but it has something to do with, I think, also… it makes me think about…

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Natalie Aviles: the boys in the preschool who the teachers automatically think are troubled kids. They… they will live up to that expectation.

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Natalie Aviles: And then all of a sudden, they get labeled as the troubled kids, and then they get passed on from teacher to teacher as they get older, and, oh, I'm getting, you know, Travis next year, I already know how he was in third grade, he's gonna be this way with me in fourth grade, and then I'm expecting that, and that's all I'm looking for.

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Natalie Aviles: And so, Travis is living up to that. Not that Travis is living up to that, but the perceptions all around Travis are this story.

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Natalie Aviles: And I think that's a little bit of what Dr. Sparrow was getting into. If, you know, if we…

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Natalie Aviles: If we are only looking… taking this blunted approach of understanding the trauma and not seeing the opportunity of anything else, then we might…

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Natalie Aviles: Unintentionally create an experience where these, you know, individuals then are…

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Natalie Aviles: Are perceived as being closer to trauma.

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Amy Zuniga: Right, and then all the information that they get…

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Amy Zuniga: Like what you were describing right now. Like a feedback loop? Yeah, it's a feedback loop, so then it's like…

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Amy Zuniga: People perceive me this way.

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Amy Zuniga: Then things happened to me.

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Amy Zuniga: That reinforce for me, it proves to me that that's true about me, and to them that it's true about me. So then we all keep… then that makes it more… like, we believe it even stronger.

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Amy Zuniga: And then that's who I think.

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Natalie Aviles: come.

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Amy Zuniga: Yeah, and then the adults are looking for that, so they find it, because that's what they're looking for.

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Amy Zuniga: In the case of, like, the troublemakers, right?

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Amy Zuniga: If I've decided that, then I'm looking for their bad behavior, and I'm calling it out all the time.

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Amy Zuniga: Which then, for the child.

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Amy Zuniga: It's like, well, I guess I am that kid, because I'm the one getting in trouble all the time.

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Amy Zuniga: So if I believe that about myself, then I might cause more trouble.

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Amy Zuniga: And the teacher's already looking for me to be in trouble.

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Amy Zuniga: Right?

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Amy Zuniga: So, wondering how trauma could be that way, too, in our… In our ways of thinking.

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Amy Zuniga: To where we're… it's like we're expecting that to happen.

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Amy Zuniga: Well, that is actually making me think about…

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Amy Zuniga: This is not a fully formed thought, everyone, so I'm just gonna talk it out.

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Amy Zuniga: Please let, like, if you think, what is she even talking about? Please. Because I was just thinking about how if we are looking at people like they're damaged, or they're incapable of taking care of themselves.

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Amy Zuniga: It's almost like the pendulum swinging completely the other side, like, blaming people for all their behaviors, and saying, like, you're a bad person.

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Natalie Aviles: Then if we take trauma and we say, you're not responsible for anything.

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Amy Zuniga: You poor little soul.

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Amy Zuniga: You can't be expected to do anything, because.

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Natalie Aviles: Then it takes away.

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Natalie Aviles: All of the self-agency.

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Amy Zuniga: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Whereas… Both things can be true at the same time. You can have experienced trauma.

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Amy Zuniga: and still… Have responsibility over your behaviors.

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Natalie Aviles: And make a choice to behave… yeah, make a choice to do what's most useful for you.

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Amy Zuniga: Right, well, and…

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Natalie Aviles: I mean, that whole thing, when you know better, you do better. So, like, you've been adapting by… these have been adaptive behaviors. Yeah. Right? Right, you're coping.

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Amy Zuniga: You're coping.

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Amy Zuniga: And also, hurting other people, like, you're still responsible for that.

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Amy Zuniga: And so, like, I mean, I read that Robin Goebel book, the…

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Amy Zuniga: Raising kids with big, baffling Behaviors. And it's like, your owl brain flew the coop.

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Natalie Aviles: So you, like…

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Amy Zuniga: you're… More protective things came online.

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Amy Zuniga: That's the explanation, and also, how do we help your heart brain be there more often, so that you're not…

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Amy Zuniga: This isn't happening to you all the time.

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Natalie Aviles: Right, right.

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Amy Zuniga: Right? And so… There's still work for you to do.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: So that…

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Amy Zuniga: like, I mean, the example of, like, hurting someone else, like, so that you're not just out there hurting people.

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Natalie Aviles: Or yourself.

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Amy Zuniga: Or yourself, or, yeah, just use that as an example.

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Amy Zuniga: But understanding it also gives us an opportunity to actually… Like, be the most effective.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah. I think that's probably what trauma-informed care really gives us.

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Amy Zuniga: Is, like, the old kind of behavior way of thinking about just rewards and punishments, rewards and punishments, rewards and punishments.

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Amy Zuniga: When we've got this trauma, people are not behaving

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Amy Zuniga: In a way that that's working for.

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Natalie Aviles: Right, right.

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Amy Zuniga: And so, understanding that gives us new tools.

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Amy Zuniga: for how to… Help these people, whether they're children or adults.

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Amy Zuniga: Again, to be the kind… like, I'm thinking about, in this case, like, let's think parents…

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Amy Zuniga: And they're babies, right?

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Amy Zuniga: So, part of the work that we're doing in infant mental health is around caregivers, so if we're thinking parents and their babies.

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Amy Zuniga: We're wanting the parents To step into the version of parents that they want to be.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: And, because of their histories, all this other stuff is happening, because they're…

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Amy Zuniga: Autonomic nervous system, like, gets activated.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: And so the work is around helping them

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Amy Zuniga: Calm their own nervous system so that they can then be present with their babies and help their babies' nervous systems.

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Amy Zuniga: And they can learn that.

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Amy Zuniga: True co-regulation. The same way they're gonna give it.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: Right?

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Amy Zuniga: It's not too late for them.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: And I mean, ideally.

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Amy Zuniga: I mean, for all humans, I hope that they get to live the most full life that is available to them.

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Amy Zuniga: And so… I mean, that's… In infant mental health, the focus is on…

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Amy Zuniga: Creating that relationship with their baby that will provide that for the baby.

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Natalie Aviles: Right.

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Amy Zuniga: And also, a more regulated adult person in the world.

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Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

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Amy Zuniga: We'll have a better… Will have their own better life.

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Natalie Aviles: And that they are able to… gain that… Through the professionals who…

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Natalie Aviles: you know, I was thinking about co-regulation, like you mentioned, And have that experience.

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Natalie Aviles: but also… You know, again, like in the substance abuse treatment model.

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Natalie Aviles: I remember working with a client one time.

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Natalie Aviles: And we were doing an activity, we used…

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Natalie Aviles: We used an evidence-based program called Nurturing Parenting.

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Natalie Aviles: And so it was, you know, I think a 10-week program of weekly lessons for parents, and then labs with parents and kids together, and it's a fully-fledged

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Natalie Aviles: You know, proven… program, I guess you could say. And,

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Natalie Aviles: We were doing one activity with the moms one week, and it involved… Listing out goals.

356
00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:46.909
Natalie Aviles: And I don't remember if they were short-term, mid-term, or long-term goals, but anyway, pen to paper, we might have had crayons, we might have been doing it on posters, I don't remember exactly.

357
00:33:46.950 --> 00:34:00.460
Natalie Aviles: But, I was like, okay, you know, we're gonna work on goals today, and I guess I was giving some words around that, and a client raised her hand, and she said, what do you mean? What are you talking about?

358
00:34:00.690 --> 00:34:06.230
Natalie Aviles: And I was like, you know, I didn't know how to answer her question, because I was like.

359
00:34:06.590 --> 00:34:14.709
Natalie Aviles: what are you asking me? We're… we're doing goals, you know, we're doing goals, and she was like, I don't understand. A goal is a…

360
00:34:15.699 --> 00:34:22.590
Natalie Aviles: And you guys couldn't see me, because you're listening to a podcast, but I just finger-drew in the air a field goal.

361
00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:25.180
Natalie Aviles: At the end of a football field.

362
00:34:25.770 --> 00:34:31.860
Natalie Aviles: And… but she… she… she basically gave me the imagery of what a goal was in her mind, and in her mind.

363
00:34:31.989 --> 00:34:49.770
Natalie Aviles: the only thing that defined a goal ever in her life, in her life experience as an adult female with children, was this image of a field goal, the goal post at the end of a football field, that big U-shaped thing with a pole sticking out at the bottom of it that's squarish.

364
00:34:49.960 --> 00:35:07.700
Natalie Aviles: And it was so eye-opening for me to learn that she didn't have any other definition of a goal. In her life experience, there was never anybody or anything in the world that ever explained to her or defined for her that a goal

365
00:35:08.110 --> 00:35:11.239
Natalie Aviles: Is anything beyond that thing at the end of the football field?

366
00:35:11.520 --> 00:35:20.140
Natalie Aviles: And so for me to be talking about goal setting, that made… it was like I could have been speaking in a whole other language to her. It made no sense at all.

367
00:35:20.410 --> 00:35:39.369
Natalie Aviles: And so, what I learned was I needed to kind of define what a goal was as related to, you know, me as someone who could set a goal, and attain a goal, and achieve a goal, and we kind of had to back way up, because I was too far forward in thinking that everybody understood how we were defining this thing.

368
00:35:40.010 --> 00:35:42.950
Natalie Aviles: Anyway, I bring that up to say that

369
00:35:43.950 --> 00:35:52.919
Natalie Aviles: you know, I don't even know how many parents have heard that this would even be an option for them to be anything beyond their trauma, especially if they're deep in the weeds of the service

370
00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:59.940
Natalie Aviles: Receiving services, and being connected, and if this is how we're kind of walking around, interacting with people.

371
00:36:00.030 --> 00:36:11.769
Natalie Aviles: Maybe reinforcing some of those messages. So it's interesting to think about, side note, as I was thinking about this specific client, she actually completed the program, and we used to do a little…

372
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:36.800
Natalie Aviles: certificate ceremony for all of our graduates. They weren't really graduates, but kind of, and we'd do a little party with cake, family would come up, and we'd present them with their certificate. She completed the program, we did the little party cake, I think 2 or 3 family members came up, her kids were there, we, you know, we did a little walkthrough and handed her her certificate. She was in proud tears. I mean, crying, full-on crying.

373
00:36:36.970 --> 00:36:38.190
Natalie Aviles: Proud of herself.

374
00:36:38.350 --> 00:36:54.419
Natalie Aviles: because she had never achieved a goal. She didn't graduate from high school, she didn't have a diploma, and this… she… she… I remember her telling me, I just… I feel like I just got my high school diploma. This is the first thing I've ever completed in my whole life. I completed a goal. And,

375
00:36:55.110 --> 00:37:08.220
Natalie Aviles: in my world, it seemed very small to finish a parenting program. I mean, not small. I know it had a big impact for the families. I really do, and in some cases for child welfare, it meant that these parents could keep their… it was the difference between keeping them or not.

376
00:37:08.220 --> 00:37:09.029
Amy Zuniga: Oh, yeah. But…

377
00:37:09.030 --> 00:37:20.429
Natalie Aviles: getting to completion of that certificate was just checking off a box, it wasn't this big of a deal. And for this moment, it was a big deal because, yes, she needed to complete the program per CPS, but emotionally.

378
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.429
Natalie Aviles: It was such a bigger deal for her.

379
00:37:24.030 --> 00:37:25.020
Amy Zuniga: Yeah, I mean, it…

380
00:37:25.340 --> 00:37:29.950
Amy Zuniga: As you were saying that, it's making me think, the reason it doesn't seem like a big deal.

381
00:37:29.950 --> 00:37:33.310
Natalie Aviles: Like, you've accompl… you have set goals and accomplished many of them.

382
00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:37.529
Amy Zuniga: So the story you already believe about yourself is that you're a person.

383
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:38.880
Natalie Aviles: Who can do this?

384
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.189
Amy Zuniga: Who can do this?

385
00:37:40.970 --> 00:37:42.580
Amy Zuniga: The first time you do it.

386
00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:47.950
Amy Zuniga: That may not be a story that you've had about yourself, and then you give yourself evidence.

387
00:37:47.950 --> 00:37:49.460
Natalie Aviles: To find.

388
00:37:49.730 --> 00:37:52.379
Amy Zuniga: Right? That says, oh, no, no, I am a person.

389
00:37:53.240 --> 00:37:54.689
Amy Zuniga: That can do this thing.

390
00:37:54.690 --> 00:38:00.669
Natalie Aviles: Look, I just did. There's evidence! Right. Like, it happened!

391
00:38:01.100 --> 00:38:10.410
Amy Zuniga: Yeah, that was making me think… this whole conversation, actually, is making me think about… when we're…

392
00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:14.599
Amy Zuniga: It's actually making me think about the circle of security.

393
00:38:15.350 --> 00:38:22.790
Amy Zuniga: So I'm thinking about… The trauma informed Again, trauma-informed hair is great.

394
00:38:22.970 --> 00:38:23.330
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

395
00:38:23.330 --> 00:38:30.129
Amy Zuniga: What it's making me think about is, like, we don't want to get stuck in trauma. It's making me think about the bottom half of the circle.

396
00:38:30.590 --> 00:38:35.620
Natalie Aviles: When people… when the babies are needing to come back in for comfort.

397
00:38:36.410 --> 00:38:39.220
Amy Zuniga: That is an incomplete… Circle.

398
00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:46.089
Amy Zuniga: There's also the top half, which is because of the safe hands, because of those bigger, wiser.

399
00:38:46.330 --> 00:38:54.049
Amy Zuniga: Kinder hands. They also get to go out into the world and explore and become.

400
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:01.039
Amy Zuniga: Right? And so I… When we're being the hands, we want to be open to both of those things.

401
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:10.259
Amy Zuniga: We want to be able to be there with them In… as they're… In whatever ways that they…

402
00:39:10.580 --> 00:39:13.719
Amy Zuniga: bring their trauma to us, right?

403
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:19.030
Amy Zuniga: And also, we want to be the hands that are ready for them to grow and go out.

404
00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:28.500
Amy Zuniga: And so I think this idea of just seeing damage is, like, we… we don't… we're not allowing them to be on that top half of the circle.

405
00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:29.250
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

406
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:35.170
Amy Zuniga: We're saying, you basically belong down here.

407
00:39:36.060 --> 00:39:38.500
Amy Zuniga: With your needs getting taken care of.

408
00:39:40.990 --> 00:39:43.179
Amy Zuniga: It… it's not safe for you.

409
00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:50.240
Amy Zuniga: To go out on your own, and become your own kind of person.

410
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:54.600
Amy Zuniga: And we need both.

411
00:39:54.600 --> 00:39:55.560
Natalie Aviles: We do.

412
00:39:56.930 --> 00:40:03.969
Amy Zuniga: We need both. And again, this is not to say that people who are doing trauma-informed care are not also

413
00:40:04.080 --> 00:40:05.000
Amy Zuniga: doing…

414
00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:12.839
Amy Zuniga: the top half of the circle. It was really… I think the thing that was helpful about it was to just remember that that isn't the… that's not where it ends.

415
00:40:13.160 --> 00:40:14.130
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

416
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:14.830
Amy Zuniga: more.

417
00:40:14.830 --> 00:40:35.500
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, and don't get stuck in the trauma. I think… I think my perspective, it could be a little skewed, too. I do teach at UTD with students, and all of the students are always just so interested in the trauma. They want to read trauma research, they want to get in the intensity of the weeds of the trauma, and know how it impacts, and the lasting impacts, and just understand, and…

418
00:40:35.930 --> 00:40:39.690
Natalie Aviles: you know, I don't know if that's an age thing?

419
00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:41.920
Natalie Aviles: necessarily…

420
00:40:42.270 --> 00:40:53.900
Natalie Aviles: Or just the study of when you're new in a program and you're, you know, you're learning… our brain does kind of wire toward the negative side of things before we… you know, it's interesting, right?

421
00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:57.890
Amy Zuniga: I mean, there's a whole culture of true crime, true crime podcasts.

422
00:40:57.890 --> 00:40:59.199
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, and I think our brain…

423
00:40:59.200 --> 00:41:02.839
Amy Zuniga: I've been on for 20 years or something, like, there's something that…

424
00:41:04.030 --> 00:41:12.459
Natalie Aviles: I think it's, protective. I think our brains find it highly interesting from a survival standpoint of

425
00:41:12.620 --> 00:41:25.460
Natalie Aviles: understanding it so that we can prevent it, or protect ourselves. You know, like, I feel like there… that's the… like, if we get primal, kind of, into the brain functioning around it, that would probably be understanding, isn't it?

426
00:41:25.460 --> 00:41:26.939
Amy Zuniga: Understand it to control it.

427
00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:28.980
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, yeah.

428
00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:29.610
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

429
00:41:30.380 --> 00:41:31.170
Natalie Aviles: But.

430
00:41:31.170 --> 00:41:32.749
Amy Zuniga: Sorry, you were saying something.

431
00:41:32.750 --> 00:41:50.750
Natalie Aviles: Well, I was just thinking, not… I'm sure not every clinician out there, right, every therapist in our world listening to us is kind of stuck in this, but I know I felt like I was stuck in it, you know, and again, from coming from an agency that invested a lot in,

432
00:41:50.840 --> 00:42:09.640
Natalie Aviles: in training so that everyone, everyone who worked on the campus would understand adverse childhood experiences, and how they might explain the behavior of people you're interacting with, and how we don't want to escalate anything. Which, like you said, Amy, this is all important. We're not saying negate that, or.

433
00:42:09.640 --> 00:42:10.080
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

434
00:42:10.080 --> 00:42:15.540
Natalie Aviles: or stop it, or move away from it. I just, for me, when I got stuck there.

435
00:42:16.680 --> 00:42:32.440
Natalie Aviles: I was feeling really burnt out, but also, it just felt like a blunted approach to only know that part of it. And, when I stumbled upon the Positive Childhood Experiences information that came out of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

436
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:45.200
Natalie Aviles: I was so refreshed, I felt lighter. I remember the day, I remember exactly where I was sitting on campus, at which computer, when I found it, I was working on a presentation in Adverse Childhood Experiences.

437
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:51.270
Natalie Aviles: conference presentation, and I stumbled upon it, and I remember my shoulders feeling lighter.

438
00:42:51.500 --> 00:43:06.419
Natalie Aviles: Like, oh, you know, we can… I can also… I can still talk about ACEs, and then I can send it into this side of it and offer this as well. And I just remember my whole body felt lighter when I learned that information.

439
00:43:07.520 --> 00:43:10.220
Amy Zuniga: Well, I think so. It just made me think about…

440
00:43:11.390 --> 00:43:17.050
Amy Zuniga: I mean, a whole bunch of things, but one of the things that came to my mind was, like, all these little kids that were…

441
00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:20.089
Amy Zuniga: born or small during COVID.

442
00:43:20.090 --> 00:43:21.360
Natalie Aviles: COVID, yeah.

443
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:28.520
Amy Zuniga: I think… One way of looking at that is to say, like…

444
00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:31.879
Amy Zuniga: I mean, basically, it's a generation of doomed kids.

445
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:38.360
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, I hear that, too, in all the COVID babies, and I can't… it irks me!

446
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:43.639
Amy Zuniga: It does me too, because I think that is not acknowledging the wholeness of them.

447
00:43:44.600 --> 00:43:48.290
Amy Zuniga: Even as a cohort, I mean, also…

448
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:54.010
Amy Zuniga: like, there was a generation of people that lived through the Great Depression.

449
00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:00.499
Amy Zuniga: There's been gen… this isn't the first time a hard thing has happened.

450
00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:01.040
Natalie Aviles: Right.

451
00:44:01.040 --> 00:44:06.920
Amy Zuniga: to a generation of people. And there's… that isn't the whole…

452
00:44:07.250 --> 00:44:12.569
Amy Zuniga: Like, hardship isn't… is an opportunity to overcome.

453
00:44:12.750 --> 00:44:13.400
Natalie Aviles: Right.

454
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:16.569
Amy Zuniga: Now, again, this isn't because we want hard things for people.

455
00:44:16.970 --> 00:44:19.010
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, we don't want to walk around creating trauma.

456
00:44:19.010 --> 00:44:19.430
Amy Zuniga: No.

457
00:44:19.430 --> 00:44:20.350
Natalie Aviles: Right?

458
00:44:20.350 --> 00:44:21.190
Amy Zuniga: The reason I thought…

459
00:44:21.190 --> 00:44:22.300
Natalie Aviles: That's not the message.

460
00:44:22.650 --> 00:44:30.859
Amy Zuniga: I think the reason I thought about COVID is, because I was also thinking about what's happening right now with all the ICE raids, and…

461
00:44:32.350 --> 00:44:34.009
Amy Zuniga: I mean, there's a lot of…

462
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.189
Amy Zuniga: Big T trauma that's happening to large groups of people.

463
00:44:39.190 --> 00:44:39.890
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

464
00:44:39.890 --> 00:44:43.920
Amy Zuniga: Right, I think… that,

465
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:50.970
Amy Zuniga: I mean, you were saying systemic earlier. Sometimes we think about it, like, with big T trauma in an individual person.

466
00:44:51.450 --> 00:45:01.640
Amy Zuniga: And how do we help that person? And then there are big things that are happening to giant groups of people that are impacting individuals differently in the group, but as a group, they're being

467
00:45:01.890 --> 00:45:03.410
Amy Zuniga: It's happening to them.

468
00:45:03.410 --> 00:45:04.060
Natalie Aviles: Right.

469
00:45:05.010 --> 00:45:09.760
Amy Zuniga: The reason I brought up COVID is because

470
00:45:11.170 --> 00:45:17.210
Amy Zuniga: I feel like the vi… virus…

471
00:45:17.530 --> 00:45:20.270
Amy Zuniga: Makes it less good people, bad people.

472
00:45:20.270 --> 00:45:22.680
Natalie Aviles: Right, right. We… it's a natural disaster.

473
00:45:22.680 --> 00:45:23.669
Amy Zuniga: It's a national…

474
00:45:23.670 --> 00:45:24.360
Natalie Aviles: to blame.

475
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:24.960
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

476
00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:35.929
Amy Zuniga: And also the way it was handled, there are mistakes. So, I'm not trying to not blame. What I'm trying to think is sometimes we can, I think, just start thinking blame and kind of lose sight of…

477
00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:40.020
Amy Zuniga: Harm is harm.

478
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:41.140
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

479
00:45:43.600 --> 00:45:49.940
Amy Zuniga: Whether it happened in a natural disaster, whether someone's perpetrating the harm on purpose or not on purpose.

480
00:45:50.970 --> 00:46:00.160
Amy Zuniga: And also, that's not… Like, the COVID babies aren't just gonna be, like, a wasted group of people.

481
00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:00.940
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

482
00:46:02.160 --> 00:46:02.800
Amy Zuniga: that…

483
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:10.569
Amy Zuniga: we can just kind of, like, throw away, because they didn't start the same way. And also, that's just how it's been happening. It's not like…

484
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:16.070
Amy Zuniga: I mean, The world used to be a place that Babies didn't survive.

485
00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:17.060
Natalie Aviles: Right.

486
00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:18.720
Amy Zuniga: Right?

487
00:46:18.720 --> 00:46:19.420
Natalie Aviles: Right.

488
00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:22.350
Amy Zuniga: We just have come a long way.

489
00:46:23.160 --> 00:46:25.520
Amy Zuniga: With medical advances, mostly.

490
00:46:26.680 --> 00:46:33.989
Amy Zuniga: That have made it possible for children to have a different kind of childhood that doesn't involve so much death.

491
00:46:35.850 --> 00:46:41.569
Amy Zuniga: Then these babies… Like, we didn't grow up in a world where

492
00:46:42.180 --> 00:46:49.810
Amy Zuniga: our friends weren't surviving, or, you know, all those things. So, like, we've grown accustomed to a world that is more safe for children and a more…

493
00:46:50.060 --> 00:46:51.330
Amy Zuniga: General sense.

494
00:46:52.750 --> 00:46:54.309
Amy Zuniga: that this COVID thing…

495
00:46:54.860 --> 00:47:02.540
Amy Zuniga: really changed the landscape. Kids aren't being able to go to school. Babies are born in hospitals alone with just their moms.

496
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:03.710
Natalie Aviles: Right.

497
00:47:03.710 --> 00:47:06.270
Amy Zuniga: And don't get to meet other family members.

498
00:47:07.160 --> 00:47:15.100
Amy Zuniga: And also, like, we do need to quit talking about them, like, They're… just doomed.

499
00:47:15.100 --> 00:47:16.160
Natalie Aviles: Doomed, yeah.

500
00:47:17.290 --> 00:47:31.109
Natalie Aviles: Well, and humans have been innovating forever, since we've… since humans have been around, we're always innovating, and so every time I think about the COVID babies, the COVID population, particularly when people, groups, agencies bring it up as this…

501
00:47:31.230 --> 00:47:41.070
Natalie Aviles: idea of doom, or how behind they are, or how delayed they are, and, you know, all the things. My brain, I don't always say it out loud. I have before, though, in professional contexts,

502
00:47:41.430 --> 00:47:48.310
Natalie Aviles: But it… my brain always thinks I can't wait to see what they're gonna do, because challenge…

503
00:47:48.640 --> 00:47:57.380
Natalie Aviles: you know, it's just like working out, you know? It's painful to work out, we're tearing down our muscles to make them grow back stronger. Humans innately…

504
00:47:57.380 --> 00:48:10.050
Natalie Aviles: innovate through challenge, and it would be quite boring if we didn't have any, but that this group of kids, like, what they're gonna do, what they're gonna come up with, the solutions they're gonna find, right? They're gonna…

505
00:48:10.450 --> 00:48:14.369
Natalie Aviles: They're gonna do amazing things, just like every other generation of humans who.

506
00:48:14.370 --> 00:48:14.700
Amy Zuniga: Right.

507
00:48:14.700 --> 00:48:18.080
Natalie Aviles: Faced whatever they faced, even though it wasn't a global…

508
00:48:18.310 --> 00:48:24.810
Natalie Aviles: you know, a global experience like COVID was, but whatever experiences it was for that group in their neighborhood.

509
00:48:26.260 --> 00:48:28.029
Amy Zuniga: And also, it happened around the world.

510
00:48:28.220 --> 00:48:32.119
Natalie Aviles: Yeah. It's different. It's different, right? It's different, but, like.

511
00:48:32.850 --> 00:48:35.020
Natalie Aviles: But, like, we're still, you know.

512
00:48:35.450 --> 00:48:50.219
Natalie Aviles: children are still growing up to be producing incredible and innovative things as human beings. My brain goes here, too, every time I… we… we talk about screens, and I don't… maybe that's another podcast, but screen time, because, you know.

513
00:48:50.990 --> 00:48:53.370
Natalie Aviles: My kids are 14 and 16, and…

514
00:48:54.650 --> 00:49:09.460
Natalie Aviles: anytime I hear stuff about screens, I just… I just… I have to remind myself that my children aren't doomed, because they've already had 14 and 16 years of what they had, what I allowed, what I did. I cannot… I don't have a time machine to go back and change that, and I cannot…

515
00:49:09.630 --> 00:49:24.890
Natalie Aviles: let my brain think that they are somehow limited because it wasn't the proper protocol for what the research is now showing us that the screen should be. And I automatically… I've defaulted myself now to counter my thought and say, my kids are going to be incredible.

516
00:49:24.910 --> 00:49:33.329
Natalie Aviles: Because of the experience they had around screens, and they're gonna create amazing things. Because if I go the other way, I just am down a path of doom.

517
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:41.780
Natalie Aviles: And I know that's a trail… that's a, like, an unchartered trail off the side of this conversation, but I… I just have to. I have to move toward the hope.

518
00:49:42.770 --> 00:49:44.650
Amy Zuniga: I do too, and I…

519
00:49:45.050 --> 00:49:49.280
Amy Zuniga: It's actually funny, you were saying that, and even before you brought that up, I was thinking to myself.

520
00:49:49.820 --> 00:49:56.920
Amy Zuniga: when we… when we look at the, like, the COVID babies, or we're looking at the screens.

521
00:49:57.370 --> 00:50:03.620
Amy Zuniga: like, I think… I was actually thinking this, I was at a talk recently.

522
00:50:03.930 --> 00:50:11.209
Amy Zuniga: And sometimes I wish we took a more… almost, like, anthropological look at things.

523
00:50:11.980 --> 00:50:19.390
Amy Zuniga: where we're just studying and trying to understand, but I feel like there's all this pressure to make a projection or a prescription.

524
00:50:20.010 --> 00:50:22.870
Amy Zuniga: We saw this, so now you must do this.

525
00:50:25.010 --> 00:50:31.970
Amy Zuniga: And… Then that leads us to, well, what if I didn't do that?

526
00:50:32.900 --> 00:50:34.310
Amy Zuniga: Ben, where am I?

527
00:50:34.310 --> 00:50:35.100
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

528
00:50:35.610 --> 00:50:39.779
Amy Zuniga: And I'm not saying that we don't…

529
00:50:40.660 --> 00:50:50.119
Amy Zuniga: I'm not saying that we shouldn't have some things that we kind of know are better. I'm not even sure. You know what? I'm gonna stand by what I was just saying. Sometimes I wish we took more time to understand.

530
00:50:50.770 --> 00:50:54.939
Amy Zuniga: Especially around a lot of things that are changing very fast.

531
00:50:57.990 --> 00:51:03.200
Amy Zuniga: It's like… I mean, I mean, it's the whole reflective process, right? Like, what if we just slowed down.

532
00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:06.700
Amy Zuniga: Understood first.

533
00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:11.960
Amy Zuniga: Like, really, really tried to understand before we said what next steps should be.

534
00:51:14.020 --> 00:51:17.840
Amy Zuniga: I wonder… Cause, like, yeah.

535
00:51:18.850 --> 00:51:21.690
Amy Zuniga: I mean, technology is here.

536
00:51:23.130 --> 00:51:27.330
Amy Zuniga: I think it's very helpful to be thinking, like, policy-wise.

537
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:35.429
Amy Zuniga: Like, we know this stuff is addictive, we know the harms, what policies are we gonna create?

538
00:51:35.430 --> 00:51:36.940
Natalie Aviles: Right, right.

539
00:51:37.270 --> 00:51:43.389
Amy Zuniga: But I think in… because we're in a kind of, like… Policy free-for-all.

540
00:51:43.600 --> 00:51:45.480
Amy Zuniga: Right now.

541
00:51:47.990 --> 00:51:51.720
Amy Zuniga: Instead, it's like we're telling individual people

542
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:57.650
Amy Zuniga: How they should behave in order to keep doom and gloom from coming to their child.

543
00:51:58.290 --> 00:52:00.709
Amy Zuniga: As if, first of all, we could guarantee that.

544
00:52:00.710 --> 00:52:01.570
Natalie Aviles: Right.

545
00:52:03.140 --> 00:52:04.100
Amy Zuniga: Because we can't.

546
00:52:04.100 --> 00:52:05.530
Natalie Aviles: No, we can't.

547
00:52:05.530 --> 00:52:12.080
Amy Zuniga: And also, everything is already resting on the individuals. Everything is already resting on parents' shoulders.

548
00:52:14.240 --> 00:52:22.320
Natalie Aviles: And to that point, the system, in some ways, requires

549
00:52:22.560 --> 00:52:26.759
Natalie Aviles: if we're… you know, I know we're trailing off into screen time a little bit, but…

550
00:52:26.870 --> 00:52:42.670
Natalie Aviles: even in the last 3 years, when I've tried to reduce the screen time, inevitably, you know, I've already locked my kid's phone in the safe, and it's like, but I need my phone to log into the app that my teacher needs me to do the thing to get the homework turned out, right? So, like, the system…

551
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:47.919
Natalie Aviles: Is required, you know, is requiring it, and… and so our…

552
00:52:48.030 --> 00:52:52.709
Natalie Aviles: Our engagement, like you said, in some ways is,

553
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:58.940
Natalie Aviles: Has to be there for success within our current… use…

554
00:52:59.620 --> 00:53:14.259
Natalie Aviles: Of these devices, and so until policy kind of puts things in place to make that easier and not be the onus on the individual, you actually can't be successful in some ways if you're too limiting.

555
00:53:15.250 --> 00:53:15.930
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

556
00:53:16.420 --> 00:53:19.760
Amy Zuniga: Or, I mean… It's gonna be hard.

557
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:21.289
Natalie Aviles: It'll be… yeah.

558
00:53:22.680 --> 00:53:23.190
Amy Zuniga: Why not?

559
00:53:23.190 --> 00:53:25.489
Natalie Aviles: It's not sustainable and not realistic, really.

560
00:53:25.490 --> 00:53:27.820
Amy Zuniga: I agree. Until it catches up, right? So…

561
00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:30.650
Natalie Aviles: We trailed off a little bit, but I think it relates.

562
00:53:30.650 --> 00:53:32.930
Amy Zuniga: I think it does, too, because these kids aren't doomed.

563
00:53:32.930 --> 00:53:33.970
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

564
00:53:33.970 --> 00:53:35.650
Amy Zuniga: Gotta get… they're not damaged.

565
00:53:37.710 --> 00:53:45.630
Amy Zuniga: Kids who got an iPhone when they were 9 years old can still grow up to be adults who do good things in the world.

566
00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:46.320
Natalie Aviles: Right.

567
00:53:47.210 --> 00:53:48.710
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

568
00:53:48.860 --> 00:53:51.220
Amy Zuniga: Babies who were born during COVID.

569
00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:55.369
Amy Zuniga: Still have a life of meaning to be made.

570
00:53:56.880 --> 00:54:00.409
Amy Zuniga: Children who've been abused and neglected.

571
00:54:00.410 --> 00:54:01.040
Natalie Aviles: -

572
00:54:01.040 --> 00:54:03.959
Amy Zuniga: By the people who are supposed to keep them safe.

573
00:54:04.560 --> 00:54:07.149
Amy Zuniga: Still have a life of meaning ahead of them.

574
00:54:10.510 --> 00:54:12.760
Amy Zuniga: I mean, I do think it's all related.

575
00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:16.060
Natalie Aviles: And adults who had adverse childhood experiences.

576
00:54:16.060 --> 00:54:16.480
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

577
00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:18.819
Natalie Aviles: Can still have a life of meaning-making.

578
00:54:18.980 --> 00:54:19.900
Amy Zuniga: Ahead of them.

579
00:54:19.900 --> 00:54:20.550
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

580
00:54:20.830 --> 00:54:25.250
Amy Zuniga: I mean, that… Like you were saying about the brain, like, we get…

581
00:54:26.040 --> 00:54:28.650
Amy Zuniga: Wherever you are, you could start today.

582
00:54:29.660 --> 00:54:33.080
Amy Zuniga: On a path of healing and making a different meaning.

583
00:54:34.160 --> 00:54:36.790
Amy Zuniga: Out of the life that you have had.

584
00:54:36.790 --> 00:54:38.040
Natalie Aviles: Up until this point.

585
00:54:39.030 --> 00:54:43.039
Amy Zuniga: That doesn't mean it's not hard, and it doesn't mean it's not sad.

586
00:54:43.040 --> 00:54:44.779
Natalie Aviles: And it doesn't mean…

587
00:54:44.980 --> 00:54:49.649
Amy Zuniga: that you… Don't always wish you would have had a different.

588
00:54:49.810 --> 00:54:50.460
Natalie Aviles: Sure.

589
00:54:50.650 --> 00:54:51.660
Amy Zuniga: Right? Like…

590
00:54:52.120 --> 00:55:09.690
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, you don't have to be thankful for it to make something of it. Sometimes you'll hear people say, you know, I'm thankful for that experience, because that is what put me here, but you don't have to feel that way. You can still say, I wish I hadn't had that experience, and also it's what kind of brought me to this.

591
00:55:10.300 --> 00:55:10.910
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

592
00:55:12.250 --> 00:55:13.090
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

593
00:55:13.230 --> 00:55:18.970
Amy Zuniga: And then… I mean, and I think that's true for the people we're helping when we're looking at them.

594
00:55:20.330 --> 00:55:28.200
Amy Zuniga: We, as helpers, We can't lose hope because of how hard it is for the people that we

595
00:55:28.700 --> 00:55:29.960
Amy Zuniga: Are trying to help.

596
00:55:31.110 --> 00:55:33.010
Amy Zuniga: I know that's hard for me sometimes.

597
00:55:33.010 --> 00:55:34.170
Natalie Aviles: Yeah,

598
00:55:34.620 --> 00:55:37.020
Amy Zuniga: Right? It just looks so hard.

599
00:55:37.220 --> 00:55:40.860
Amy Zuniga: And so… Impossible.

600
00:55:43.630 --> 00:55:44.939
Amy Zuniga: And also…

601
00:55:45.200 --> 00:55:51.709
Amy Zuniga: I mean, they still have a life to live, and so, in whatever ways that my role is to support that.

602
00:55:54.910 --> 00:55:55.899
Amy Zuniga: And we can…

603
00:55:56.670 --> 00:56:04.029
Amy Zuniga: talk more about how we keep ourselves in a place where we can do that, but in the ways that I can support that person, they…

604
00:56:04.140 --> 00:56:05.580
Amy Zuniga: We'll still become.

605
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:06.380
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

606
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:11.869
Amy Zuniga: I want to… Kinda keep my eyes on that, too.

607
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:23.820
Amy Zuniga: You know? Like, try to… Let my… Vision go to what Is also still possible.

608
00:56:24.130 --> 00:56:25.909
Amy Zuniga: Right? Not just… Yeah.

609
00:56:28.330 --> 00:56:29.660
Amy Zuniga: Where we've come from.

610
00:56:30.780 --> 00:56:34.139
Amy Zuniga: But that informs… Where we're headed.

611
00:56:34.730 --> 00:56:35.380
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

612
00:56:35.380 --> 00:56:38.109
Amy Zuniga: So you don't, like, pretend like that's not real.

613
00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:46.210
Amy Zuniga: But anyway, I agree with you, it was… it was really nice, and it does feel lighter.

614
00:56:48.080 --> 00:56:53.649
Amy Zuniga: To look forward toward possibility, and not just look at the past and the…

615
00:56:54.460 --> 00:56:55.270
Amy Zuniga: trauma.

616
00:56:57.600 --> 00:57:00.009
Amy Zuniga: And what is hard.

617
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:01.020
Natalie Aviles: Yeah.

618
00:57:01.270 --> 00:57:03.989
Amy Zuniga: And also, would what we focus on, I mean…

619
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:06.569
Amy Zuniga: You know how I feel about taking in the good.

620
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:07.320
Natalie Aviles: Yeah?

621
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:08.649
Amy Zuniga: Talk about that.

622
00:57:08.650 --> 00:57:09.129
Natalie Aviles: This is what.

623
00:57:09.130 --> 00:57:28.770
Amy Zuniga: one of the things, I was joking at the conference, I'm the kind of person, if I learn something and I think it is useful, I proselytize it. Like, I want everyone to know about it. And this is one of those things. It is not about looking for a silver lining that doesn't exist, it's just about starting to notice the good things.

624
00:57:29.550 --> 00:57:30.570
Amy Zuniga: when they happen.

625
00:57:32.150 --> 00:57:34.200
Amy Zuniga: And they can be small, like…

626
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:45.360
Amy Zuniga: Yesterday I was watching my daughter's tennis matches, and the sun was, like, warm, and the breeze was nice, and, like, feeling the warm sun on my skin and the cool breeze.

627
00:57:46.910 --> 00:57:47.520
Natalie Aviles: Good.

628
00:57:47.520 --> 00:57:48.340
Amy Zuniga: That's good.

629
00:57:50.200 --> 00:57:56.049
Amy Zuniga: And the more we notice that, and we put our, like, neurons in that direction.

630
00:57:56.610 --> 00:57:59.920
Amy Zuniga: The more that is our world, that becomes our world.

631
00:58:01.340 --> 00:58:07.890
Amy Zuniga: And the more we are, like, stuck looking at the bad stuff, the more that's the world that we see.

632
00:58:08.080 --> 00:58:13.639
Amy Zuniga: Yeah. Which really is kind of telling me in this moment that I probably should, like.

633
00:58:13.820 --> 00:58:17.419
Amy Zuniga: Maybe not so much true crime.

634
00:58:17.600 --> 00:58:22.479
Natalie Aviles: I had to stop. The closer that my teenage daughters get to moving.

635
00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:23.170
Amy Zuniga: Oh, okay.

636
00:58:23.170 --> 00:58:28.070
Natalie Aviles: and living independently on their own, because I will marathon Dateline.

637
00:58:28.230 --> 00:58:28.650
Amy Zuniga: Oh, yeah.

638
00:58:28.650 --> 00:58:35.360
Natalie Aviles: Friday to Sunday, every weekend, if I could, but, in the last few months, I had to cut it off, because it was… I was like, oh, one day I'm gonna have…

639
00:58:35.410 --> 00:58:36.080
Amy Zuniga: Yeah.

640
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:38.239
Natalie Aviles: Girls living in their own apartments?

641
00:58:38.780 --> 00:58:39.730
Natalie Aviles: you know, I just…

642
00:58:39.730 --> 00:58:44.179
Amy Zuniga: Sooner than we believe. Yeah, for real. And then that's the world that we…

643
00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:50.049
Amy Zuniga: that's the world that we live in once we are taking that in, right? And that's what we see everywhere.

644
00:58:51.220 --> 00:58:52.200
Amy Zuniga: And that's hard.

645
00:58:52.200 --> 00:58:53.180
Natalie Aviles: Yeah, it's hard.

646
00:58:54.080 --> 00:58:55.010
Amy Zuniga: Alright.