The Mezzanine Floor
The Mezzanine Floor is a podcast that creates a space for conversations concerning the christian life as we walk out living in the tension between heaven and earth.
Join our host, Pastor Malachi Maillot and his guests as they wrestle with how we ought to live with a heavenly mindset in an earthly body.
The Mezzanine Floor
Ep 1 - Relationship vs Religion | Malachi Maillot & Bryan Grant
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In this episode, Malachi and Pastor Bryan Grant have a conversation about a common phrase in christianity today: "Its not a religion, it's a relationship." They discuss the challenges associated with the 'religious label' as well as the dangers associated with over emphasizing either side of the conversation.
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If you get into a relationship with someone, you know that you can't just do whatever you want. Right. Because that's that's what God does He brings order. He brings order to our disorder, right?
SPEAKER_00Is we get fixated on the things that we can't do and we might lose versus what we're gonna gain by having those boundaries in place. Obedience isn't just you saying to Brian, I need you to do this, and me just obeying you and going there. Obedience is when you're not there, I'm still doing the right thing.
SPEAKER_01We present ourselves as a living sacrifice, and so I don't get to do what I want to do. Welcome to the Mezzanine Floor Podcast, where we talk about living in the tension between heaven and earth. Uh, we're on our first episode, very first episode. So excited to be here. Uh, thank you for being with us if you've tuned in. Uh, I know we'll be on all platforms, YouTube, Spotify, anything that you can get your ears listening to. Today, I am so excited to have our very own Brian Grant. Uh, he is gonna be with me today as our first guest, and I'm sure we're gonna see a lot more of you on this podcast. Depends how this one goes. Yeah. Pastor Brian, you've been, man, you've been with KCC for seven years. Yep. Is that correct? We're going into the seventh this year, yeah. Me and you were the hired of the same year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, month, the same year, one month apart. One month apart. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we've been through it.
SPEAKER_00Our first experience together was team church conference. That's right. That's that feels so long ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it seems like a long time ago. Um, you know, ministry for that long, it's I feel like I feel like in today's church world, that's a long time.
SPEAKER_00Well, it is. Statistically, youth pastors don't last. No, don't make, don't make it past three years. You've been on your sixth, and even uh associate pastors don't usually make it past four or five years. Which is wild to me. Yeah, and but we also are coming to a place that values long-term living life, living ministry life, living. Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully that's the trend. We'll see what happens after the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I actually had a one quick question, and maybe maybe this is like super deep, but but you don't have to go too crazy with it. But uh, what's been your favorite part in these last seven years? Maybe that's maybe that's a broad question, but what's been your favorite part of ministry? Maybe your your favorite part and your least favorite part. You don't have to name names, obviously.
SPEAKER_00But wow, that's a that is quite a large question.
SPEAKER_01It's my it's my icebreaker question.
SPEAKER_00I think my favorite part would have to be that I feel probably like for the first time, being in ministry in general, that probably for the first time I'm operating in the gifting that God's given me. Wow. Uh, and the calling that I have. I feel like all everything else that I've done led up to me doing what I'm doing right now. Yeah. And I love the intensity of it. Um, I love the I love the people. And I would say that the my least favorite part would be admin. Admin. I just spotted admin with a burning fiery passion. But that is an unfortunate part of being a pastor. Yes, that they don't teach you in Bible school anywhere that you're gonna have lots of paperwork to do. Yes. So that's my least favorite part.
SPEAKER_01Luckily, we do have many admins on our team.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that are more capable than we are to make take our mistakes and fix them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, I want to jump right into the topic today. Sure. Um, this is this is something that, you know, obviously, you know, in our circle we've been talking about a lot. And, you know, we thought, hey, this would be a great topic for our first podcast episode. Um and, you know, the topic today would be that statement that, you know, you hear a lot of it in um, you know, bigger churches or seeker-friendly churches, you see it in people's Instagram bios. Um, you you hear it a lot on stage, you hear it a lot in conversation, uh, and it's the statement it's not a religion, it's a relationship. And um, I was just as I was kind of prep prepping for this episode, I wanted to be really careful because I also don't want to like flame people out there that have said this before.
SPEAKER_00That's fair.
SPEAKER_01And I have a confession to make. I have a confession, I have a confession that I think actually I remember this was in my Instagram by at one point in my life.
SPEAKER_00And so even thinking I've actually said this to someone, it's all about relationship, it's not about religion. Yeah. And I'm glad we're gonna get into the topic as to why we said that and why we don't anymore.
SPEAKER_01Well, and again, again, this, you know, obviously this is something we both agree on. We're probably not gonna get into an argument. Um, hopefully not. That could get spicy and and you know, good content, but give us some time. Yeah, give us some time. But you know, we don't we're not here to make anyone feel bad as well. We, you know, the purpose of this podcast is to equip people and and help them through their journeys, and obviously we're on that journey with people every single day. Um but my point of bringing this up is I would say that this is a very one-sided statement.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's and it's like what we were talking about, it's a narrow view on something that I think has both sides to it. That needs to be um intention with yeah, right. All true all truth is intention. That's right. So there's two sides to things, and I say um, you know, the problem with saying that statement or even just like preaching that statement is it's semi-misleading and it's a narrow view, it's not a religion, it's relationship. I would say that it's often stated, you know, by someone not wanting to seem religious.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. Or and even into my experience, I would say that they say it because they've been hurt by church, they've been hurt by an organization or an institution, or their maybe their parents were or their family was really hurt by a church. And so they're often trying to say this as an excuse for only focusing on relationship because the institution of church has been poor and their experience may have been bad, they're coming away offended. And my honestly, when when I've said this to someone, if I think back and when we were talking about this, it actually is to someone who is saying, I can't, I don't like the church. Yeah. And I'm like, that's fair. And I would I would say back to them in in the past is that I don't really care for the organization of church sometimes as well. But this is about except for our church. Except for our church. Our church is amazing. But hopefully, you say it in a way where you're hoping that you're almost connecting with them and saying, Hey, I've been hurt by the church too, but it isn't about the church, it's about a relationship, it's not about religion, it's about a relationship.
SPEAKER_01Because because churches themselves don't actually hurt you. No, it's it's the people that are in the church, right? Right. Like my the church is not perfect because you know we're there. Yeah, absolutely. We're we're not perfect people, and so the church can't hurt you. But the people the organization of the church can't hurt you, but people will. Um, it's not to say that people don't need to be accountable, but I think you know, kind of getting back to why people say this, um, that idea of, you know, even just the idea of being religious or being perceived religious. Why why is that so bad? And it it's it's almost like we we try to avoid, like if someone says, Hey, you know, are you religious? or they say that statement, are you religious? So they ask you that question. We we immediately like don't want to be associated with that idea of being religious. So we say things like, um, you know, I'm just a I'm I'm a Christ follower, yeah, or you know, they say that statement, it's it's not a religious relationship, you know, I'm in a relationship. But why are people so scared to be labeled religious? Why is that? Or or why do you think the word religion gets such a bad rep?
SPEAKER_00Because real and if you ask, if you ask a lot of people about religion, it may not even be about Christianity, but it will. I don't know how many times I've had uh discussions with people that bring it back to the crusades. Oh, Christians went in and they wiped out millions of people. The one bad thing, yeah. Yeah, right. But but and again, it always comes back to we'll look to what even what the Catholic Church has done. They've had a long history of of all kinds of scandals, usually involving uh children or priests. And so there's that. There's the fact that they look at uh Christians as we're hypercrit or hypercritical, like uh your words don't match up your actions, or what your church is saying is not how you're actually behaving, or and so what you see is this religion itself or the institution or the actions of religion really they associate the the destruction that the religion has caused with the people, but then they say that all religion is bad, any religion is bad because of what and what you said before, it's about the people, it's not about the actual institution itself. And is there is there toxic cultures? Absolutely, totally right. Is there tough places for people to be? Absolutely, but it again it comes back to the people hurt you. It wasn't the the actual practices necessarily, or the culture or the the practices or um traditions necessarily about that religion, it was the people that were in the religion that made you feel the way you do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and yeah, we could both agree that you know, probably in the past, religion, you know, obviously gets a bad rep because of past hurts for people. Um, you know, religion has been used to manipulate people, control people, you know, don't do this or else, don't do that or else.
SPEAKER_00A really heavy religious culture that that is and again, here's how we can even break it down a little bit further is that without religion, relationship is just you're talking so much about love. So religion, if we're looking at it in a certain way or in the right way, I think, it brings a framework to how a relationship functions. Exactly. Right? So that's what we're gonna get into actually. And it but what we see often is only one or the other, and you don't because a healthy relationship and religion that works together, you don't hear about that because it's functioning properly. Yeah, but you only hear about how relationship went awry or how the religion just completely crushed someone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so yeah, we both agree, yes, that like religion has kind of been that way, um, and it's got a bad rep. But but I wanna I think I think it's it's it's important to look at the both sides of the coin. Right. Right. And and and see the benefits of you know, religion or or the, you know, I say religion, but the the actual structure of the church, because um even even the definition of religion is this. I actually looked up a definition because I wanted to be smart, right? Um the belief in and worship, this is just off the off the dictionary, uh uh worship of a superhuman powers or power or power or powers, especially God or gods, a particular system of faith and worship. So that's that word system, um, a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance. So that's that's a definition of religion. And so you could take that kind of idea, that structure uh of faith, the the structure of church, right? Right. And I would say there has, you know, obviously there's been bad, yeah, and there's been misuse and there's been manipulation, there's been church hurt all throughout history. Yeah. Um, but I would say the good outweighs the bad.
SPEAKER_00I do, I agree. And and even coming from uh I was sitting with someone this morning, one of the elders of our church that's been with us for 40 years, and he asked me, you know, just talking about leadership and things like that. I said, There has been times probably in the last six years where we have had every right to walk away and be offended, to have had hurt feelings, to have been like I was at at this church for six months where I got brand new clothes and someone looked at me, walked me, closed the door of my office, and told me, Brian, you dress like you're homeless. Sometimes you do. Yeah, right. Sometimes I do.
SPEAKER_01I feel like I'm the one who dresses homeless of anything. But I don't know why you didn't sit me down.
SPEAKER_00Everybody sat me down and said, You dress like you're homeless. I could have been super offended by that. In fact, like and but the things that have been said behind our backs that we hear about numerous things numerous things, we could have been offended and walked away from the church and and and said, you know what, this is no good for me. But I would say that in my own life, one, that was a maturity thing, but also the good of church has far outweighed, far outweighed the bad. There has been a lot of bad in church for other people, for myself included. I have I came, I've been in church a lot of my life. But the for the good of it, the connections, the fellowship, the the accountability, the the discipline that we've gotten from what we know as church has only ever been sometimes it's been tough, but it's been good. It's it way outweighed bad.
SPEAKER_01What kind of discipline is not tough, right?
SPEAKER_00Right. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Any structure in in our lives is going to be tough. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
SPEAKER_00But that's where religion is really beneficial if you look at the traditions that and the things that you do in Christian culture that actually bring guardrails to your faith, right? That bring guardrails to your relationship. Right. If you have relationships that say I can do or say anything I want, we get what we currently have in culture. Yeah. Where we've allowed I can be whatever agenda I want, I can be a dog, a puppy, I can be, I can be a wall, I can be a wall. Right, right. But I've heard people that that that struggle with all kinds of different things because the only thing they know is, well, I can be what I want because there's no guardrails, there's no boundaries. Yeah. And religion provides those things, in my opinion, a lot more than just being able to think whatever I want.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I mean in again, that's the two extremes. Yeah. Right. That's the extreme of of people you you know, viewing rel relationship as I can kind of do whatever I want, but if you get into a relationship with someone, you know that you can't just do whatever you want. Right. Right. And I don't and I don't understand where the where the block is there, but I would say I would say this about religion or or the church it's itself is it it it brings order to our life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Because that's that's what God does, is he brings order to our disorder, right? And that's that's why why he brings his word to to us. That's why he brought his word to us. It brings order to our lives. Um there was actually, I was when I was preparing for this today, I was thinking about this sermon analogy I'd heard um from a youth pastor, uh, Pastor Barry. He's actually awesome. He's done in City Life Church. Shout out to Pastor Barry if you're watching this. We love you. Um, but he was talking about this exact thing uh about Christianity and how um there's this viewpoint of Christianity that's all just rules, uh, it's all the can'ts and can't and like the I can't do this, I can't do that, you know, I have to avoid this, I have to stay away from that, I can't have friends, uh it's holding me back from being, you know, free. And you know, if God wants us to be free, then why did He give us all these rules? Right um he he had this analogy of like, you know, imagine imagine your life, you know, we're sitting in a kind of a square-ish room with walls, right? We're we're surrounded by walls and barriers, right? And imagine that. That's like the Christian life. And and a lot of us, um, he was talking about this, this, this in this way, where a lot of us we stare at the walls, right? We're as close to the to the line as we possibly can be. Right. Where we're where we're just staring at the wall and we're staring at the the I can't do this and I can't do that, and the rules of everything. Whereas if we just turn around, if we just turn around and look around at all the space that we have and all the freedom and the and the liberty we have within the safety of the con like of the structure, right? And that's the whole point of of discipleship and and and the the word of God, and and there is there is rules.
SPEAKER_00There is rules to this relationship with only for your only for your good, though. Exactly. And so I think I think that that is such a misstated thing that what people focus on immediately is what you just said the cans. Well, I can't do this and I can't do that. What has that brought you that when it's gone you're gonna miss so much? Because oftentimes it's just momentary pleasure. Well, I can't do this now. Yeah, well, that was killing your liver anyway. Yeah, exactly. Right? Like, and that's not not not what you want, or you are a constant liar and it was getting into what are the things that you're missing? And I think that the the I love that's such a great analogy. What are you free to do in the confines of that those four walls? Yeah, right. And you have uh you have safety, warmth, protection, all that in this in the confines of that that area that you wouldn't have had if you stepped out of those. Exactly. That's such a good analogy. I like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and and the and the whole point of it is we get so fixated on those things, right? We get so close to it to we we miss out on everything else.
SPEAKER_00Right. And wouldn't it, I I think you would you would say, or what I'm hearing you say, is we get fixated on the things that we can't do and we might lose versus what we're gonna gain by having those boundaries in place. Exactly. Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so yeah, obviously we agree, tradition and and ritual are not bad things. No, and so you know, in in terms of religion, it's it's not a bad thing. There is there is parts of religion that you know we can throw away.
SPEAKER_00And there the like like I don't know, I grew up in a few different church cultures. There's some church cultures that are really unhealthy, yeah. That that wreck people, that cause super deep offenses and cause them to question their faith because of the the leaders or the way that they were treated, or and I think that we can definitely agree that if you want a healthy culture, it has to start from a biblical sense of of what God calls us to as people, and that's not to be destructive and just roll over those that that are around and religion, just like anything else, religion, a business culture, a school culture, a a uh a political culture, all can be used for good or they can be used for bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, anything could be used for bad.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so yeah.
SPEAKER_01So what do you what do you think of um so in in terms that you said healthy cultures, you know, what do you think a healthy culture looks like? What do you think a healthy church looks like? Obviously, we're not using the word perfect because we can't we are imperfect, and and because like we said, because we're at church, it's never gonna be perfect, but we are moving like there's a there's a scripture in Hebrews where we are being made holy, right? We're we're on that journey and we get better and better and better. But what is a healthy culture in church, you know, in the in the confines of church? What does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_00A healthy culture in a church is one that understands the point of honor, the one a culture that understands spiritual authority, yeah, but also understands how to honor each other, how to like w there's been many times where you and I have disagreed, or Pastor Brody. Many times or Pastor Brody and I have disagreed, or even amongst a team, but what I always come back to is the fact that I honor Malachi and the fact that God's called him to be a pastor at this church. So I honor Pastor Malachi. I honor Pastor Brody as who God's called them to be. And when you honor and you you what's that that you heap a double portion uh of but we're we're looking at each other not as things to conquer, but things to work with, and you love each other and you care for each other, and the culture that you're building is one of I don't even know how to is one of understanding each other and being willing to work even with the flaws.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because the flaws show you what obviously they show you what's wrong, but they also give you opportunities to love each other more, to honor each honor each other more, and to make sure that like when when we when our culture at KCC, I remember six years ago coming into staff meetings. You remember staff meetings on Monday mornings?
SPEAKER_01Staff meetings are just they've changed for the better. Yeah, they've changed for the better.
SPEAKER_00But we would come in and we would almost like we the Sunday didn't go well, something didn't happen, people didn't respond or what, and we would just come in and we knew that the week was rough and there was just things going on, and we we pushed really hard for a culture that was honoring, that was loving, that was community-centered, that we want to pastor people and push them forward and see them, see God work, transforming, have the Holy Spirit moving in their life. One that is not taking away from people, but lifting people up and adding to them. Yeah, right. And it it's uh we've spent six years building that culture. Yeah, I remember you sat me down, or it was like the end of last year, and you said, Brian, I think that what we've been building is finally we finally see it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you finally start to see the fruit.
SPEAKER_00Right. We're starting to see the fruit of what we've been building. Yeah, it's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01Fruit takes a long time to grow, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, healthy, yeah, healthy fruit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like healthy things take way longer to grow than weeds. I would say which is another episode we're gonna get to. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00I would say though, that um what what I think we've probably learned over the the last few years, because of our personalities too, but when there is something that's not good, you have to be willing to cut it out. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that what churches don't do really well, uh, and we that's us too, there's Been times where we've had things that we should have cut out of that culture that were toxic that we waited too long to do. I know I'm guilty of that. And there was one situation in particular that if I would have seen it sooner, responded faster, I would have caused so much less pain for the team. And so now because of that, I see things a little bit sooner and I'm willing to go to war for things that like that aren't part of who we are. Yeah. And I would say that if churches were willing to just you work with for only for so long before you got to pull back and be like, we got to get rid of this because this is gonna take us down. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not being afraid to address things. No. I think that's another part of a healthy culture. And and in and in addressing things, you obviously we have that model of 1 Corinthians 13 where you you address in love, you address in absolutely. We don't, this is that and that's the thing where I think people get it backwards, where you get um people in authority, and that's where maybe people have been church hurt. Yep. You have people of th of authority, you know, stomping around and saying, Hey, you need to listen to me or else, or you need to listen to me because you know I've this appointed person. Yeah. Where whereas we've been learning about this, uh, you know, where leadership, and we know this obviously, but it's nice to refresh our brains. Absolutely. But um, where leadership's job is to come under people and lift them up. And it's and it's not to lord over people. So good. And and I think that that's a that's a part of healthy culture. But if, but if we're afraid, you know, if we're you're saying like to deal with toxic things, if we're afraid to to to address things, then again, you're just gonna have a garden full of weeds and eventually it's just gonna take over. And and that's not healthy for anybody. So so but I think people are are scared of that, right? Because they're a little bit gun shy of of people kind of misusing authority. And I think that again you have to be in a space where you're you're humble. Yeah. Right. And and both sides, like I have to be in a place where I'm humble and I'm willing to take correction, uh, you know, even if I don't think I'm wrong. Right. Right. And if but if I'm not in that place, then that's a place of that's a that's a recipe for disaster, I would say.
SPEAKER_00But a healthy, a healthy religious culture or healthy church culture will be you know that if I come to you with an issue, it's because I care for you, exactly, not for the system. Yeah, the system supports what we're doing, but when I go to Pastor Brody, I go to Pastor Malachi and say, hey, this has really been bugging me. This is what you're doing. And maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but when I'm coming to you, it's because I care more for you than I do about it. Uh and I care enough about you that you know that hey, when I come to you, it's not for your destruction, it's for your health. Exactly. That I want you to be better. That I'm and and maybe and I we get to the conversation, like, oh, maybe I was seeing it wrong, and it's a chance for us to grow together. But man, if you don't trust that, if you're in a culture where you don't trust that or you can't trust it, or you can't trust that because you're not sure. Get out of that church, yeah, then it may be at time to to just you gotta you gotta go. But if you can't trust that with the leaders that you have, it's really tough for you to invest into to own that what's going on there because you'll never be fully who God's called you to be in a place where you can't trust the leadership. Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you have to and you have to know what you're looking for too when you go to a church. Right. Um, you know, you have to like the obviously everything comes from the top down. And if the the lead is not, you know, a humble person, and you can tell usually right off the bat, you definitely if they're not if if they're willing to, you know, if they're submitted under authority, you're gonna see it. If someone's not submitted under authority, you're gonna see it. Um, and that's something that I think is so so crucial when you, you know, maybe maybe your church, like your church searching, you're looking for a church, you know, find people that are under authority. Yeah, right. Authority is so important and healthy authority, right? It's again, it's not like you know, I said this to you guys in my office today, was like authority is like soap. Yeah, the more you use it, the less you have.
SPEAKER_00And and so people that go parading around and saying, hey, you need to listen to me because of this and this and this, you know, obviously, you know, be careful with investing your life into their absolute because uh a healthy leader, and I think we we kind of we talked about this too, is a healthy leader will you know that when you're speaking to your youth kids or I'm speaking to someone in the church that I have the the lead the pastoral authority, and you have a relationship with them too, right? So, but it what happens is if you're operating out of a religious spirit and you don't have relationship with someone, you're just gonna bash them and say you have to do what I do. Yeah, but until you have a relationship with them, that means that when I go to someone and say, Hey, can you do this? Or can you, hey, we need these chairs stacked. And I don't have to order them to do anything and say, Hey, they just want to serve because they're part of the church. Hey, I respect you, I love you, I care for you, hey, I'm gonna do or you bring correction to them, yeah, which works so much smoother when you have a good relationship with someone. Yeah. And you're the but the guardrails and the traditions are there because of your position and you you've earned it, and that's who God's called you to be. But then you can make those decisions where the relationship really matters, then you'll see growth in other people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. It's that again, it's that tension of of the both.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? There's a there's a tension between the both. You can't have you can't have relationship without the religion. And and maybe the religion is a bad word to use in today's culture, but the it's a it's a yes and it's there's the both. It's a both. There's there's rules. It's like when you get married, what do you have to sign? A contract. Yeah, right? You're signing like governmental, like you know, marriage is all about relationship. Absolutely, right? Yeah, and and it's it's all it's every single day dealing with that same person and and growing with that same person. And and that's the parallel of of our relationship with God, right? We were kind of joking about this earlier, like girls that say, I'm married to Jesus, but yeah, we are all married to Jesus technically, because we're the church and we're the bride of Christ, and and we're in a contract.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. With God, right with parameters, with expectations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and God hates like he hates divorce. Yeah, right. And he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't want us to be separate from him. And and that's why, you know, it's such a beautiful picture of of the relationship that we have with God. It's it is a relationship, but it's also there's there's things we have to follow.
SPEAKER_00There's reverence, there's honor, there's authority that we have to go through with. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, Pastor Dave, there was a masterclass with him. Yeah. If you missed it, so good. I don't know how they can get it. I think we recorded that. We should have a recording of it. But he said, and I'm stealing this from my sermon on Sunday. Um, he said the greatest expression of love is obedience. Oh, that's so good. It was like I had to write it down immediately. Me and Jamie were texting each other, we're like, man, that was such a good I'm taking I'm taking that for my sermon. Yeah. Um, because it it it truly is like, and and that's where I that's where I think you know, rituals and traditions are good, right? Like you buy your wife flowers, you know, every once in a while. It's that's a good tradition. But it it becomes an issue when you're buying the flowers as a way to manipulate her emotions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_01You know, so you obviously you've been married how many, how many years have you been married? 21.
SPEAKER_00She's not here to tell me, so I have no idea. 21 years. 21 years.
SPEAKER_01That's incredible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Wow. She still loves me, I think. I guess we'll find out later. I think she doesn't want to hear this. She's still with you, so she's no, we've been married for 19. Love is not a feeling. Remember that. That's right. Love is a choice. She chooses to love you. That's right. But yeah, I think I I I love what where you're going with this too, because when you talk about obedience, obedience isn't just you saying to Brian, I need you to do this, and me just obeying you and going there. Obedience is when you're not there, I'm still doing the right thing. Yeah, I'm still choosing to because you honor me, and because I honor you. Yeah, right. So I honor God, and he says what I'm gonna do, and I honor my leader. Yeah, and I say, I'm gonna be obedient. I know that this is what God wants. I know this is what my leader wants, this is his expectation of me. I'm gonna go do it and I'm gonna obey. Even and here's the thing sometimes I don't want to. Especially when your wife says, Do the dishes. That's right. Right? Right?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Or you've gotten to the place where you don't even need to be asked. Yeah, right. When you get to That's when you know you've won at marriage. That's when you don't need to be asked.
SPEAKER_00You do it, and she says, You did this, and I didn't even ask you, but it was a good day.
SPEAKER_01That even so let's take that as an example.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, even a small gesture, like doing something without being asked, what kind of response does that have with your wife?
SPEAKER_00Depends if her uh if her love language is an acts of service.
SPEAKER_01But I think I think universally Absolutely universally. Right? Like just you know, even just as a sense of like women traditionally, you know, are usually especially when you have kids. Obviously, you can speak from the right. Like traditionally they're they're at home a lot more with the kids, especially when you, you know, absolutely multiple, which you have three three three kids, oldest is 18, youngest is fourteen.
SPEAKER_00I think I'm mostly right. Sorry, Anne. That's your age. That's right. But yeah, when you there's just things that happen uh when you're married in routine um that you can forget and you may take for granted. But because you and again, if we the relationship with your boss, relationship with God, relationship with your wife or your your husband. You honor them and you love them, so you want to serve. Exactly. And you want to lift up. And me, right now we're in a phase where I do a lot of cooking and she loves it. She's like, I'm for whatever, and I'm loving cooking. It's just, but it's not always been like that.
SPEAKER_01What's your favorite, what's your favorite thing to cook? Burritos. Burritos.
SPEAKER_00It's mostly for me because it's easy and it's a lot, right? But I honor her, I love her, she needs certain things done, I know what they are. She's not lording it over me and saying you have to do it. Um, she's saying, Can you help me out with this? Yes, and I want to serve and it's and it's not out of obligation.
SPEAKER_01No, no, but maybe it maybe sometimes it is. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and here's the thing is it's are you want to do you always want to be obedient when Pastor Brody or your boss tells you that you need to do something? Do you always want to be like, oh, I'm gonna go do that because I love it? No, no, we do it because one, that's the expectation because I'm not the boss. So the boss has said something to me, and I'm gonna honor the boss, yeah, I'm gonna serve the boss even if I disagree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00And God has asked me to do some things, and I'm like, I am opposed to what you've asked me. I'm gonna be uncomfortable, I might look stupid. This is way out of my.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00I'm opposing God. But the thing is, is that I love God and I want to do what he wants me to do. So I honor him in the obedience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm I will be obedient, and sometimes we can honestly say, Have you been obedient every single time? I would say probably not. Probably not. No, right? But we honor God, we love him, we're gonna do what he asks us to do.
SPEAKER_01And the and the motivation is out of honor.
SPEAKER_00Love and honor, right?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Like, like it's like Pastor Dave, you know, said that great quote, right? And and that's that's also scriptural too. Like you, um, I think it's man, what it's in John, John 15. I'm preaching on it, literally. And uh, and it says that you know, you'll abide in my love if you keep my commandments, right? And it's like I I my job is not to just become you know better at being obedient, but my job is to become better at loving.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Right, and through that, you know, through as my love grows for God, as my love grows for you, as my love grows for Pastor Brody, as my love grows for my wife, yeah, I'm going to want to obey them and and and and to please them in that way. Right. Like it it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be this like fight. Right. Right. And so again, we're coming back to that that crossroads where you need both. You can't have one without the other. Yeah. And so I wanna I wanna quickly talk about where we're not getting short on time, but I want to quickly talk about um maybe the other side and maybe some of the problematic views and maybe why this view is problematic of leaning towards, and I think um we were talking about this before, where um, you know, we're not gonna name names, but there was a pastor that uh we actually just watched a clip on, and and he said that we need to stop preaching repentance. We need to preach Jesus. And and and it comes back again to that that statement relationship over religion and the narrow view that it is and the and I think in my own personal opinion, opinion, the the danger of having that narrow view where you have this like lens that you view scripture and this very narrow lens. So when something comes opposing to that that that lens, maybe it's like, well, God is love, and so I'm gonna look at every scripture through this idea that God is love and all loving and and you know, you know, he's going to accept everything, and you know, he can't condemn, and and you can kind of quickly get into this like universalism. So so so again, do you like I guess well obviously we think it's a problem. I think we agree on that. It's a problem, but what do you think you know the issue is and into getting into that where it's where that narrow view can be really dangerous or a slippery slope?
SPEAKER_00I think if you're looking at only relationship, say we'll we'll just look at at the relationship. There's a I remember um we had a couple people that I know during COVID when we were all in the middle of shutdowns, they got saved. Um they got saved during COVID and then spent the next eight to ten months only watching YouTube videos of pastors from all over the world, some good, some not so good. And really the only thing they knew was relationship with each other, one, and then their theology was in a vacuum because there was no understanding of the word of God.
SPEAKER_01And so when you say a vacuum, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00What I mean is that there it's essentially in a vacuum like an echo chamber. They have a thought and there's no one there to correct the thought or to teach them the thought or to show them scripturally what this means, or to go to a scholar and say, Hey, this is the this is what the Bible actually means by this. And so you end up with a lot of really weird ideas, and it happens like this with relationships is that if you're in a relationship where you only have someone across from you saying yes to everything, even if it's wrong, even if you say, Hey, I got rat poison for you, and I think it's probably good for you, and you're looking at me say, Yeah, that's a great idea. That's what happens when you just have no boundaries and you have nothing, and the relationship is only two people saying yes to whatever. Isolated, you're isolated, you're on your own, you're actually you're more likely to wreak destruction upon yourself because you have no one in your life saying and no history, no guardrails of anything that's happening in your life. You're just choosing to do what you want to do, think what you want to do, think what you want to, and not have anything. And so we end up leaning really, really far into this is this is good, even if it's not actually, even if culture or society says this is bad, you can convince yourself just relationally that I can do or say whatever I want to do. And then we go the other way where it's only religion, and what do you end up with? A bunch of angry, bitter people that know the word of God but have no experience with the Holy Spirit, no transforming experience. And if we read through the book of Acts all the way, the book of Acts actually is the the all those people that were there, the history of what's going on, they're talking about the acts, like actual acts. It's people that know the word of God, but have also experienced the word of God where you need both. You can't have one or the other. So they may not have had the full Bible, but they had some of it and they would ex they would know the word of God, but then they would experience the word of God. And if you have just relationship, it's all about experience with nothing, and then you have only words, you end up with people that I know in my life that are just angry, bitter, frustrated, and know the word of God and are but have no transforming experience with the Holy Spirit whatsoever. And it's it's both, right? And one is destructive and the other is destructive without the other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I think um just to kind of add to that, um, you know, when we become hyper focused on, you know, let's just let's just use the instance of or the example of, you know, God is love. Right. And you like there's a really great teaching on this um through Theos U. And uh it's it's when we, you know, obviously we we hyper focus on that one scripture, um, or we hyper focus on that one characteristic of God. And and I think that it's it's actually really easy to get to a place. I think, you know, I I don't know, I wouldn't say all pastors, but there's there's been a few like pastors that get on stage and they manipulate people by using emotion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or or they you can easily manipulate people into that idea of emotionalism, or you know, um, you know, the even just the statement of like, you know, God doesn't care what you do, or God doesn't care. Like, obviously, you know we we know that God loves, yeah. Like he sent his son to die for all of humanity. Like the most the the biggest expression of love in human history. Like he loves humanity, but there's requirements and there's a there's a life that we still have to follow. Um like sacrificial life. Like we have to sacrifice our our our bodies, right? Like not literally sacrifice our bodies, but we present ourselves as a living sacrifice, and so I don't get to do what I want to do. Right. But if we if we become hyper focused, it's like it's like the camp high Christians, yeah, right? Where you experience you experience the love of God and it's and it's real. Like I've I've had I've had so many incredible, amazing moments, you know, in worship or when you go away to a youth camp, yeah, and yeah, and the problem, and maybe it's not the problem, it's it's the the after that the follow-up. If there's no follow-up, if there's no discipleship after, if there's no like, hey, let's let's talk about what's going on in your life. Let's let's talk about you know how how we can keep moving forward in this. If there's none of that, man, it just becomes an experience, and then all of a sudden, after the camp, you know, ends or the the moment in worship ends and this Holy Spirit tingles, you know, dissipate, and Monday morning hits that's true, and you're stuck in clone of traffic and you want to ram the car in front of you, right? It's because it's because it went like an inch deep. Yeah. Right, and a mile wide. Whereas, whereas if you don't have discipleship after that, right, and this is just speaking of from experience of doing a lot of youth camps and going to a lot of youth camps, right? The habit isn't formed in a day. No, not the habit isn't formed in a three-hour worship session. Um, the habit and the dis this the discipline wasn't formed, the ritual wasn't formed, the value wasn't built. Yeah. Right. And so you have a really you have a large group of Christians that have a very shallow faith because you know, we just want to crave experience.
SPEAKER_00Well, or they're they're chasing the miracle. They chasing the miracle, they're chasing the gold dust or the rubies coming from the the ceiling or their that's such a dated I know, right?
SPEAKER_01Like I remember that happening.
SPEAKER_00But we I I was meeting with someone now or uh someone uh a few months ago that there was a big move of God down in uh Texas, and he was gonna pack up everything he owned, take his car, and drive to Texas because that's where God was moving. Wow, right? And he was just chasing the next experience.
SPEAKER_01God wouldn't dare to move here.
SPEAKER_00No, not where we are. No, just in Texas, where all the heat is. Home of the free, land of the brave. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, we're out of time today. Thank you for being with us. Um, we want to thank you so much. Thank you, Pastor Brian. Uh this is a great conversation. We're gonna continue to have these conversations. We're so excited for this podcast starting. It's gonna be great. It's been the Mezzanine Floor Podcast. Uh, like and share this video if you enjoyed today's content, or you enjoyed the topic today, and we'll see you next time on the Mezzanine Floor.
