The Mezzanine Floor
The Mezzanine Floor is a podcast that creates a space for conversations concerning the christian life as we walk out living in the tension between heaven and earth.
Join our host, Pastor Malachi Maillot and his guests as they wrestle with how we ought to live with a heavenly mindset in an earthly body.
The Mezzanine Floor
Season 2 - Ep 1 - Does God Want My Money?
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In the Season 2 premiere, Malachi and Ed Berk tackle the timely question of tithing and its relevance in today’s church. Together, they explore whether this ancient practice still holds significance for modern believers. Ed also shares personal stories of generosity, reflecting on how giving has enriched his life—not only financially, but spiritually as well.
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As well as check out our church on Instagram and at KCC.net
You can check out our content on Youtube
As well as check out our church on Instagram and at KCC.net
What is God's heart behind us giving?
SPEAKER_00In everything that he, you know, uh does in his relationship with humanity, he's constantly giving. And he's trying to mature us.
SPEAKER_03Typical human perspective and culture that we live in is it's mine, it's all mine, it's a selfish point. It's always a selfish standpoint. And that's what I think it's like an eternal battle that human beings deal with is fighting that selfish desire.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think that the New Testament actually is uh greater than the teaching of the old, not reduced or or you know, obsolete.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the Mezzanine Floor Podcast. I'm your host, Malachi, where we talk about living in the tension between heaven and earth. Thank you for tuning in with us. Uh, whatever you're listening on, if you're listening on Spotify or you're watching on YouTube and you can see our pretty faces here, uh, make sure you like and share this video. Uh, subscribe to the channel so that you don't miss any future episodes. Uh, on today's episode, I am joined by none other than Ed Burke. It's so great to have you on the podcast, and we got an applause for you. Um, you have been uh you've been a pastor on our at this church for a very long time. How many years have you been uh a pastor here? Probably since 1991. 1991. So that is I was born in 1990. So that was 35, 34 years. 34 years. Yeah, that's crazy. And you're still going. Still going. It's awesome. Uh um, you've you've worn many hats in the church. Um you ran the Bible school, if I'm not mistaken, um, number of years ago. Uh you ran like young adults ministries, you were our lead pastor.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and you were the missions pastor as well. Yeah. And so that's incredible. Uh, what's uh what's been your favorite, I guess, era of doing ministry? You could say all of it, but like what was your favorite spot that you were in? Well, first off, I want to say thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Hey, I feel it's a real privilege. Thank you for being here. Uh to answer that question, you know, when I uh started in ministry, I started serving in the youth department and then we built the young adult. Well, we all started in the Bible school. And I I did that with the support of my wife, Lisa. And uh I thought I had the best job in the world because we were taking teams all over the world in missions and uh, you know, and preaching the gospel, seeing people healed, you know. So that was probably my favorite part was the hands-on, yeah, the hands-on working with the young people, watching their zeal come alive, their passion for God come alive. And uh yeah, it was pretty exciting. So that's awesome. How long did you how long were you running the Bible school for? We started in 1995, and uh, I think I don't remember when we we, you know, we had I was still giving oversight to it, but Trudy was running it after a while and uh those transitions, right? Yeah, and so probably right up to about uh 2010, I would say something down there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's awesome. What a good time to be alive back in those days. Well, thank you again for being with us. Um and we are in we are in season two, so uh it's pretty cool. We'd finished our season one, we're in season two. And if you look around in the room, I don't we don't have a panoramic room, but maybe Logan can just switch through the cameras. We have an incredible studio that we renovated. Uh well, we as in, we hired uh Dan from DC Customs. He's a part of our church. So shout out to Dan at DC Customs if you ever want some incredible uh you know, carpentry or any like uh rental work done. He is your man. Dan is the man. Okay. Uh but yeah, we got some great uh like we have a great sign back here. So we hope you enjoy that. Big time upgrade. But for season two, we're kicking off our first episode and we're talking about money, right? We're not we're not doing something easy today, I don't think. And uh, we wanted to address um that idea and that kind of maybe that like skeptical question of, you know, does God want my money? Right. When we think about giving, we think about tithing, uh, there's we could we I mean we talked about it a little bit this last week. There's kind of like a few sides, or there's a few, a few people in the audience, there's a skeptics, there's a people that know about tithing, there are the people that maybe um, you know, they just grew up in church and they just have this idea, they don't really have like a full understanding of what it is. And so uh I think when you talk about money, and I'm sure you would agree with me, it gets awkward, or it's or it's hard to talk about money with certain uh people, or you know, people are really sensitive about money. It's a very personal area of people's lives. Um, but that's exactly why we want to talk about it, especially on the podcast. Because again, the you know, the this this whole platform is really for talking about those things that we don't necessarily get to always, you know, fully talk about in church or that we take, you know, we only get like 30 minutes on a Sunday. Well, we have quite a bit of time to talk about it today. So um, and I wanted to bring you on because you are awesome. And you know, you've you've uh even in our church, you started running a connect group on finances. Yeah. Uh you've been teaching in the finance or the the foundations course as well. So hopefully it's fresh on your mind. Uh, but I wanted to ask a question, maybe it's just like uh to kind of open up this whole conversation. Um, you know, why do you think the topic of money, um, the topic of tithing and giving, um, you know, especially in the church, is so tough to talk about, or it's such a touchy subject in people's lives.
SPEAKER_00Growing up, I we I'm from a different era, right? Like uh parents never talk to their kids about their personal finances. Yeah. That's true. That's true. That's very true. Yeah. So, you know, you come out of school and you really don't know how to manage. You get a job and you don't know how to manage money, and uh, you know, then you have to try and wing it.
SPEAKER_03And um, you know, so and it usually goes terribly for a lot of people. For me, it went terrible I will I will speak from experience. Yeah, I didn't know how to do my taxes until I was like 24. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I was when I started working, I started logging and you know, in the early in the 80s, and I was making 50, 60, 70 grand wow uh a year as a kid. And that was back then. That was back then, yeah, right. And I didn't know what to do. Oh, I had a great time. Yeah, yeah. I didn't have any. Adult fun money, it's great. You know, and uh, you know, even at that time I wasn't serving the Lord. Yeah. So um I had grown up learning about tithing and learning because my dad was a pastor, so in our family, yeah, you know, uh, they wanted to teach me some principles, but uh, you know, when I left home, I wasn't serving God and and uh making all kinds of money.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh, you know, when I had my conversion experience with the Lord and really came to faith in uh who he who he is, yeah, um, he started to speak to my heart about money right away, right? And uh the amazing thing was is that uh in my first year of marriage, leaving logging and going into Bible school, I went from $70,000 a year to $13,000. Yeah, exactly. And the amazing thing about it is I did more with the $13,000 than I did with the $70,000. Well, and so you know, I thought, you know what, we gotta learn something here, we gotta put some principles into our life. And uh so Lisa and I started doing that right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. So money was a was a big thing for us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. Yeah and it's yeah, it's just a it's a tough, it's a tough relationship between for some reason, and it I would I had uh thoughts about this, like where, you know, it's not supposed to be awkward, right? Like it's not supposed to be like, but it often is because we make it this awkward relationship between God and money, almost as if the two have to be separate for some reason, right?
SPEAKER_00Scripture also says don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing, and so we use that as a as a privacy uh clause or something like that, right? And so, um, yeah, so we don't discuss it enough, I don't think. Yeah, and I believe in discipleship, which is obvious with the Bible school and you know, all of that.
SPEAKER_03I believe in discipleship and I believe in uh raising up a generation that is empowered versus uh just trying to follow the law, sure, and try to wing it through and just try to like absolutely you know, you're making mistakes and you're just frustrated through things, and it's it's better to prepare people.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Well, I remember I remember when I when I first went to Bible school, we had, and Logan would remember this when we had the budgets. Do you remember the budgets? It was like, I remember Oh boy, do I as like a young adult, like no one had told me, yeah, like I like you were saying, like no one had told me what to do with my money. Right. No one was helping me. I was just this young, 25, I guess that's young, uh, 25-year-old who didn't know anything. And and I remember they they introduced budgets and we had to like keep a budget. And I remember being so frustrated by it because I'm like, who are you to tell me what to do with my money? Yeah, but really what they are trying to do is like show me that there's a better way. Absolutely. And it's like that idea of we have to steward our money. Um, I think coming back to maybe why um, you know, specifically tithing and giving in church, um, you know, we're talking about money, but I think specifically in that avenue, um, you know, you've seen both extremes in church, yeah, right. Where you see um, you know, almost like a manipulation that ha has happened. Um, you know, I've I won't mention names, but I have seen churches and and pastors. There was a pastor, he was on television and he was saying some crazy things about uh and his philosophy and and theology on on giving, I think, is maybe skewed the other way. And that and it's the extreme of, you know, he was saying, like, well, Jesus hasn't come back because we haven't given enough. And I'm like, whoa, that's like a very wild statement to make. I don't know where you're getting that in the Bible. And you kind of have this like idea of like maybe like the prosperity gospel, kind of in uh that skip, uh that scope. And then we have the other side where it's like, um, you know, again, we won't mention names, but there was a um he he basically wrote a book that was like throwing out his entire theology on giving. Like he was very pro-tithe and um pro-giving. And then he said, um, you know, had this, you know, quote unquote revelation that, you know, tithing is no longer like because of the New Testament, you know, tithing is no longer something that's required. And he completely takes it to the other extreme where this man is maybe on the too far this way, and he just goes the opposite way. So we see, we see two extremes, and and maybe, you know, maybe partially that's why you see a bit of hesitation or skepticism. Yeah. I don't know if you had any thoughts on that or if you've kind of seen that in your in your walk.
SPEAKER_00You know, uh when you when we talk about money, that's a lot of time, energy, vision, sure, yeah, um, hard work. Yeah, right. And everybody in our society is reaching for our money in our pocket. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. And so, you know, um we like to spend on what we like to spend on. So it becomes personal. Choice is personal, right? And uh so yeah, when the church, when you you see these uh you see healthy teaching on giving, and then you see the manipulation and the abuse. And uh there's a fine line between uh wanting to honor the Lord and be obedient, yeah, and then uh look at where our money's going and what's the impact or what's the effect of it, right? So it's it's it's really touching, it's very personal. But I believe like when I gave my heart to the Lord, I wanted his lordship in my life, right? And uh, you know, from the time that I gave my heart to the Lord to to currently, you know, that's been a an incredible journey, but I wanted to come underneath the Lordship of Christ. That's right. And uh that has to do with his word too, yeah, right. So uh I had lived my life up until I was 27 years old, 28 years old, doing it my parents' way and then my way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And uh now I wanted when in my conversion, I wanted to do it the Lord's way and to align my life with what the Lord wants.
SPEAKER_03That's good, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Through his word, right? And so, you know, that included my giving and immediately he started talking to me about money, yeah, right, like debt, get out of debt and what I was gonna do with my money. And so um that's the biggest thing in my life is is that uh we're we're serving the Lord, we're aligning ourselves with his word, and what does his word have to say? Yeah. And so it wasn't about what I wanted to do. Yeah, that's good. It was about servanthood and yielding to what the bigger picture was. And sometimes we don't even understand in the beginning.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. You know, we don't understand the ramifications or we don't understand the the power of blessing and giving, right? Scripture says it's more blessed to give than to receive. Yeah, but that's right. We're like, oh hang on a sec here, I'm losing out if I'm giving, right? Yeah, I worked hard for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do I give this? Yeah, right. So it becomes very personal. And um, but I think that through life experience and through the stories in scripture, the promises in scripture, the uh, you know, we start to see the benefits and the blessing. Yeah, I think that that's powerful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. So I I to maybe go into that a little bit, um, you know, what would you say, you know, obviously um kind of just from a biblical perspective, w like what is God's heart behind us giving? You know, why uh maybe a better way to say it is why did he establish this idea of tithing in the b in the in the first place? What was his kind of like game in this, or not game, but like his heart in in us giving in towards that idea?
SPEAKER_00Right. It's interesting because when we start to uh see God, when we see him in scripture, when we you know uh understand what he's done in our own life, the only thing that I can come up with is that he gave. Right? He gave his only son, he he poured out, he gave his Holy Spirit. He talks about blessing, he talks about the blessing in Abraham and the blessing in the nation of Israel, and he talks about uh the blessing of the priesthood and all of these things in scripture, and uh so you know that's who God is. And um you know, in our own lives, uh I view myself as a son, not just a tur a church attender. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't I don't go to church just because that's the bolt-on thing that I need to do to be a good Christian. I have now entered into the family. There's an inheritance for me. There's um, you know, and and I think that God is trying to teach us who he is, and he's a giver. Yeah. And so we uh the question is like, why is this on the heart of God or why did he institute uh giving? Um it's because he's a giver. Yeah, simple answer. He's a giver, yeah, exactly. In everything that he you know uh does in his relationship with humanity, yeah, he's constantly giving. And he's trying to mature us as uh sons and daughters of the most high. We're we're in the family business. That's right, yeah, right. And we have heaven's resources. And uh, think that what happens in our life as we get to know him, we we switch from being a consumer to being a giver.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_00And uh so scripture is replete with examples, and you know, it starts with you see it right in the beginning with Cain and Abel, that's right, bringing offerings, right? Somebody had to teach Cain and Abel, and I think Adam and Eve, you know. Yeah, who who was around? Yeah, who taught them? Two people to come, yeah, two people to come and bring offerings. Yeah, exactly. You know, we don't know a whole lot about Cain and Abel, but we do know that, you know, those the first thing they did and what was recorded about them. Exactly, right? And so uh you see that laid out right in the beginning of the narrative of scripture. That's right, yeah, right? And that comes directly from the heart of God. So he wants us to like even in things if you took money aside, he talks about us being the a river of living water pouring out of us. So everything is about about giving and pouring out and uh making a difference. And uh, you know, I think too um he knew our our weakness, he knows our humanity, totally, he knows our our sin nature, our flesh nature, and uh it's full of want, it's full of selfishness, um, it it wants to get, it is a consumer, like my flesh is a consumer. I have a want list, a big want list, right? We're always working toward that want list. And I think that that with the Lord, he starts to instruct us how to handle resource, right? And uh he instructed his kids on how to handle resource and and to pour out and become a contributor to humanity, to become a contributor to the society, to become a contributor eventually to the priesthood, right? And to give to the the the people, like in in the old testament, when Israel moved into the promised land, there was an inheritance given to eleven tribes.
SPEAKER_03That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But one tribe didn't get an inheritance, their inheritance was to come from the giving of the eleven tribes. So you got one tribe, the priesthood, that was dependent or reliant on the generosity and the giving of the people. And then even the priesthood had to tithe off of that, right? So that's part of the part of the regulations, right? So I think it was just God really wanting to uh to uh move us from getting and taking and earning and wealth to actually contributing to giving, because that's exactly what his kim kingdom is all about. Yeah, right. That's who he is. Yeah. And uh if we're to be conformed to the likeness of the image of the sun, that's what we become as givers.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's such a good point, too, because it's like it goes past just again coming back to that first question, does God want my money or does God need my money? I've heard people say that, but it's not about that whatsoever. Not at all. And I've heard it said, you know, God, God wants your heart, not your money. Absolutely. Right. And that's where uh, you know, there's a scripture that talks about where you're I think it's Jesus talking, and it's where your treasure is, your heart is. And so where is where is your heart in this? And that's where I think God is trying to get us to almost like I think you had said like detach from that idea of just trying to get, trying to grasp at everything, trying to acquire all these things and hoard all this wealth and things and material things. Right. But it's like a that idea of detaching from that, not as if we're detaching to say, oh, this is garbage or this is useless, but it's like there's a use for it and there's a stewardship that has to be built in us, yeah, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you see that in in the a lot of the parables in the New Testament, uh, I mean, money is mentioned 2350 times in the Bible, peace. Or finance or yeah, or wealth or giving, right? It's like it's a huge, huge topic. And you're right, like it's directly related to our heart, right? But our hearts gotta relate to the heart of God. Like if we don't have a revelation of who God is, if we don't understand who our heavenly father really is, right, then we're left to our own um desires and and thoughts, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we kind of make up the idea of God in our life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think God, you know, throughout the Bible, he's just peeling back the pages uh in his relationship to mankind, trying to reveal himself. Yeah, right. It's kind of like, you know, you got a little baby now, right? Um and she's awesome. She's awesome, yeah, beautiful, right? Um and you want to teach her. Yeah. Well, she doesn't know how to drive a car, she doesn't know how to cook, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but you tell her, and the law, you actually set up the law and say, hey, don't play on the street.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Don't go on the street, don't touch the stove because you're going to burn yourself. Hot things are hot. Yeah, that's right. That's the law, right? And and man, when that child's heading for the street, you're you're adamant.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. But hopefully when when your daughter's 20, she's cooking in the kitchen and touching the stove and using the stove. Yeah. Right. So there's this process of learning, and in the process of learning, we have instruction. That's right. Right. Which we we sometimes use the word law. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is in the law and the prophets, right? But the law wasn't, you know, just a an adamant dictate that says, Hey, you you know, you have to do this because I need your money or I need, you know, I need you to do this. No, the the law is about the instruction of the Lord.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. And He's teaching us and He teaches us, you know, through this instruction. And so the only way that uh we can actually make this shift to generosity if somebody comes along and says you should give. Right? And uh here's a good pattern on on how to give. Yeah. And so, you know, God lays out the pattern. He lays out the pattern specifically to the nation of Israel. But, you know, we we talk about tithing and giving. But uh there's like all kinds of offerings in scripture. Like it's not only tithing, yeah, it's about giving and it's about pouring out, and it's about the widows and orphans, and it's about looking after the Levite, and it's look looking after the stranger coming into your land. And you know, so um there's this requirement on the resource, but it actually goes back to it starts with a revelation of who God is. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03That's so good, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And scripture says that uh, you know, He He owns everything. Yeah, you know, the earth is His and the fullness thereof, and all of the people that are on it are His. Yeah. Right? Absolutely His. And when you start to look at scriptures on uh giving and your responsibility, you actually see that there's promise attached to blessing. See if I don't pour open up the windows and pour out. Yeah, right. Um He gives seed to the sower and bread to the to the hungry, yeah, right. That's what He gives. He so if if I think that what I have is done by my own hand, I I think I'm foolish.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_00I actually realize that the blessing of the Lord is already on us because He is pouring into us and giving right so it starts with a revelation of what who owns what I have. Yeah. Right? I remember one time Lisa and I and some friends were out in July first watching the fireworks or yeah, fireworks for Canada Day. And I was in my boat on Okanagan Lake. And uh, you know, to make a long story short, my boat sunk. Oh my goodness. We had to get ready. Whose fault was that? And then and my immediate reaction was, Lord, if you want to sink your boat, go ahead and sink your boat, right? So we've lived with this whole idea of what we have comes from the Lord and is the Lord that gives it, right? And so he's just wanting to pour in, but he's also wanting to see us pour out. And so, you know, he there's a there's a requirement, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I love I love that.
SPEAKER_00You want to sink your boat, man? Go ahead and sink your boat.
SPEAKER_03It's not mine anyway. It's it's a it's such a good um, it's such a good perspective to have, though, because again, human perspective, typical human perspective and culture that we live in is it's mine, it's all mine, it's a selfish, it's always a selfish standpoint. And that's what I think it's like an eternal battle that human beings deal with is fighting that selfish desire. Um, you know, obviously from the very beginning, like when we're babies, like our first kind of words are other than mommy and daddy, is like mine and no, right? Like you don't meet many, you don't meet many kids that are like immediately just willing to share. Right. Because you have, like you said, you have to teach them, you have to give them rules and and guidelines and and obviously like nurture them into those places. And you'd hope that you wouldn't have to like, you know, uh like what what's the word I'm trying to say? Like push them into those places, but you'd hope to guide them into those places, right? Um, but yeah, it's like that idea of just we're constantly fighting that selfish hunger that's almost insatiable in the human heart. Yeah. Um, well, I want to kind of we're gonna kind of bounce through some of these questions, but uh, I want to kind of go back to some basics, you know. Maybe, maybe for those again, we kind of talked about this beforehand. Like, who is our audience? Maybe there's people that don't actually know, you know, they're talking about tithes. Like, what is just coming to faith? What is a tithe? Yeah, exactly. Right. What is a tithe?
SPEAKER_01What is a tithe?
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, these guys are talking about weird things right now. But I want to ask, yeah, maybe just to kind of give a little bit of a basics. Um, but what what is tithing? What is tithing in the in the Bible?
SPEAKER_00Right. So very specifically, a tithe is one tenth of your increase. Yeah. Right. So uh, you know, giving one tenth, you know, back to the Lord in essence of what he's given you. Yeah. Right. And uh so, you know, that you know, we talk a lot about money today, but the economy in the history of the Bible is often like uh sheep and cattle and you know fruit, uh fruit and vegetables, and you know, and again you see that with Cain and Abel, right? One one brought the increase of their herd and the other one brought the increase of their garden. That's right, right? And Jesus even alludes to that in the New Testament about you know, you tithe with uh mint and cumin, yeah. You know, this is the the weightier matters that I desire, you're not giving, right? Um, yeah. So a tithe very specifically is one tenth of what you make or increase in, right? Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, so there's another kind of there's a common argument, and I'm sure you've heard it before, um, especially with when it comes to tithing and giving a tenth of your money. Um and I wouldn't say it's so much in like maybe our church, but I've just heard this with when I've talked about tithing or or you know, it's come up in conversation, but it's like the argument of people saying that uh, and maybe it's all over like Instagram or like people just kind of deconstructing a little bit, but they talk about tithing as well, it's only old testament, right? Right? Yeah, and so and they you know, people look at the New Testament like, well, where is the where's the requirement? Where why do we, you know, that's kind of like alluding back to that the pastor that I talked about who who was very pro-tithing, and then all of a sudden he decided, you know, well, it doesn't really say anything about the this in the New Testament, and I've concluded that you know, tithing is you know, done away with. And there was a whole book out of uh written on like Old Testament versus New Testament and how you can ascend, and it was pretty brutal, actually. Like I read the book um and I had to repent after because I had to change some of my thought processes. But it was like taking the Old Testament, just throwing it essentially, like obsolete. He was using the word. I was like, it's kind of a scary place to be in and maybe a little bit naive, but this whole idea of like, well, you know, it talks about the tithe and all this stuff about giving and and you know, in the old testament, but it you know, we're under the new covenant, and and what does that mean? How does that how do we how do we move into that? And maybe where does it talk about uh New Testament teaching and on tithing?
SPEAKER_00Right. Uh I think the the scripture, scripture is a journey, a journey to fullness, a journey to completeness, a journey to maturity. Yeah. Right. Um, you know, kindergarten to grade five is not obsolete university.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there's a place, there's a place that you gotta start with, you know, learning, right? Yeah. Um, but you know, going into this whole topic, you know, I think that the New Testament actually is uh greater than the teaching of the Old, not reduced or or you know, obsolete. Yeah. The New Testament is built off of the principles and values in the heart of God in the Old Testament. That's right, yeah. Right? Christ came to fulfill and exceed and do more than the requirement of the legal side of things, right? Yeah. Um you know, so I think that when we look at our own heart, we there's reasons why some of us struggle with giving. Sure. Right. And then that could become a a reason. Like, well, it's no longer, you know, spoken required.
SPEAKER_03It's not a law written down somewhere.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think it's complicated because you know, the audience in the beginning of the New Testament was a was often a Jewish or Hebrew audience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you don't see tithing talked about a lot in the New Testament, you do, but you don't see it a lot talked about in the New Testament because we're talking to a Jewish or a Hebrew off audience that grew up with the principles already and understood them. That's right. Yeah, they already knew. Yeah, so you don't address something that they're already doing or living out. Yeah, they're already going to the temple, they're paying their exactly. So Jesus is actually addressing their heart more than he is the legal side, yeah, right. So, but if you look at the old testament and the tithe, you know, the tithe doesn't actually, you know, there's there's people in the in the that are like the apostles that are writing the gospels, right? And they're they're referring, John said that the law came through Moses.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Jesus referred to the law of Moses. Right. So, you know, when you when you look at that, we understand that Moses wrote the five books of the law, but in the in that there's a historical narrative. And before there was ever Moses writing the commands from, you know, his relationship with God and his revelations and what he's right, there's people that gave. There's you see offerings in the heart of people that are way before the law.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like if the law came through Moses, Moses was 2,000 years into human history in the Bible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00So there was 2,000 years prior to Moses. Where people were giving. People were giving us a chance. Well, we just talked about it. Exactly. You know, uh, I love the story of um, you know, Joseph and Jacob, Jacob's ladder. Yeah, right. He's on his way out from his mom and dad's house, and he's on a journey to go find a wife, you know, and and uh a re a Rebecca, right? Or you know, a Rachel or a Leah, or you know, and anyways, um he lays his head down on a pillow, and then uh angels ascend and descend in his dream that he has, right? And he says, Surely this is the house of God, surely this is the place that God has has come to, right? And then he gets up from that place in the morning and he says, if the Lord is gonna look after me, I'm gonna covenant and make an oath to him that I'm gonna give him one-tenth of all that I I increase or gain in. Right? Wow. That was way before the Lord. That was a revelation that he had Jacob had in his relationship to the blessing of the Lord in that place. That's incredible, right? Yeah. So uh, you know, Abraham uh gave to Melchizedek, he tithed one-tenth of the spoils of war, you know, to Melchizedek. Um, that was already in his honor system. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Way before there was ever a law. You you don't see any law of tithing or giving until you know the Levites and Moses coming down, right? So um to say that, you know, you know, the Old Testament, the law, you know, is replaced by the new covenant, yeah. I agree with that. But I believe that the new covenant does more than the law. That's right. Not less than.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so, you know, we see in scripture, there's actually in scripture, there's a lot of mistakes people made when it came to money. Right? Haggai warns about holes in our pocket, Malachi warns about not giving to the storehouse, right? And uh, and there's often promise of blessing attached to the giving, right? Ananias and Sapphira, like they died and had to do with money. That's a pretty intense story, yeah. It's New Testament, right? Like they lied and they died, they lied and they died, right? And it surrounded money and property and and giving, right? So to suggest that the New Testament covenant uh gives us permission to reduce God's heart in support of community or giving, or you know, uh I'm not there. I actually think that the New Testament uh requires more of us, right? Yeah. Um yeah, and so you know, that's my my personal take on it for sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, even even aside from like how you're saying the New Testament almost requires more of us because you look at scripture and you look at what Jesus had said, it's like if you even you even look at someone with lust, you've committed adultery. Right. And they're probably like, come on, Jesus. Like you just made it way harder for us. Like like you're testing like the inside of my thoughts and my heart. Like I thought it was just all about what we did. Yeah, right. Yeah. And and that's a I think that that kind of weaves into it, doesn't just like skip money or like skip tithing. Yeah, I don't think that that whole principle skips any of that. I think it requires us to look at it differently. And it's like a different level of generosity. I heard I heard a uh pastor say that he he actually thinks that the in kind of on that thought of like the Jewish people knew about tithing. They didn't need to be, you know, retaught about tithing. They had they had walked in it, but Jesus comes and he actually requires more of them.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, and he he actually, when he looks at scripture, he sees, like you're saying, like the New Testament Christians would actually give more than the old testament Christians because they like you you read scriptures about how they just gave everything, right? And they just like pooled it all together. And they're like, all right, we're gonna, this is how we're gonna do things. And like we can't even fathom thinking that way. We would we would look at that and be like, that's a cult.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, Jesus told I think it was in Luke. Uh don't don't quote me on it, but I think Luke 18. Um, you know, a rich man, he's a ruler. Yeah, he comes to Jesus and he says, What must I do to inherit, you know, eternal life, right? And Jesus says, Well, don't call me good, number one, because no one's good but God, right? Which is kind of like funny because he is God, right? Um, but then Jesus says, Well, you know the commandments, right? And the rich guy or the ruler says, Well, I know the commandments and I've followed every one of them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I haven't failed. I mean, right? And Jesus looks at him and says, Yeah, but one thing, right? Yeah go and give what you have to the poor and come and follow me. And uh, you know, Jesus was sad at the response because he knew, but he knew he was talking to his heart.
SPEAKER_03He knew he couldn't do it. He walks away sad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely, right? And then Jesus says, Well, it's harder to enter the kingdom, you know, for a rich person to enter the kingdom than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Um, so I find it fascinating that uh Jesus in his own words is challenging that that person was very rich, it said in that passage. And Jesus has challenged him to the core, the most personal thing, giving everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. And and you'll be rich in the kingdom of God, right? And so uh he wasn't saying, you know, uh, rich guy or son, you know, I think you should give a tithe, or maybe you should give 15%. 20 or 30. You know, I'm gonna raise the bar for you. No, he said that give it go sell everything you have, right? And uh that was on Jesus' heart. What qualified him to actually say that or require that, right? Nothing other than the fact that he just wanted to reveal to us that giving and money and finances is a really it's a heart issue, right? And it's really hard for us to transition from taking and holding and gaining to giving and pouring out and blessing. Right.
SPEAKER_03It's a really hard is right. It's a really hard position for us to do. Yeah. Um I want to kind of move into uh, and maybe we kind of touched on a little bit, but maybe some like misconceptions that you have seen about tithing and giving. Um, maybe like I I've heard this one where it's like it's kind of like the opposite side of the road where it's like money is evil and we need to abstain, like you know what I mean? Like people people associate money with like uh or wealth with like something that's evil and they completely just like I don't want anything to do with it, and they they they kind of have this weird philosophy about it. But if you're heard like, I don't know, maybe you can address some of the like misconceptions that you've heard over your lifetime about tithing and giving, and um, we can kind of just address some of those things.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um it's it's interesting because uh you know, when you look at like, for example, the passage in Malachi, it talks about bringing you know your finances or your tithe to the storehouse, right? Um I look at King David, and King David, you know, scripture talks about I think it's in uh Chronicles, he says that he wanted to make the house of God exceedingly magnificent and famous and glorious in all the earth, right? Yeah so he saw something about the heart of God and his house, right? And he laid aside like all these piles of gold and silver and everything to build the house of God, right? Yeah. So, but that's not a tithe. That's a that's uh an alignment in your thinking of what you want to do with your wealth and your resources, yeah, right. But we've had a lot of you know, uh through teleevangelism or you know, there's a I think there's a misguided like put your hand on the screen and you know, there's just abuse. It gets a bit goofy, yeah. Can I say even from the pulpits, you know, um when our budget and the requirement of the board or you know, the pressure uh when our life as a minister or min pastoral team is measured by how we do in the budget, yeah, I think we're missing the point. Totally. Really missing the point. But that the pressure on ministry sometimes is a trigger for them to w ask for more money. Yeah, yeah, right? Totally. And going back to the original question on this whole podcast was like, Does God need my money? Does God want my money? Does God need my money? He doesn't need anything from us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00He can put gold in fishes' mouths, he can make a desert bloom, like he, you know, like do whatever he wants, yeah. He can do whatever he wants. This is more, I think, about us. Yeah, and you know, in have I given under manipulation or coercion? Yeah. Yes, I have. Is that the best way for me to give? No, I didn't feel good about that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00But I often like Lisa and I, when we started, when we were married and we actually lived off of a budget, yeah, right? Yeah, we budgeted our tithe. And we budgeted our missions giving.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh, you know, I think what's more important is that we're sensitive to the Holy Spirit and what he puts on our heart to do and to give. Yeah, right. Yeah. And um, I think there was a there was a challenge in the New Testament for, you know, Paul was a an apostle to the Gentiles, and so he has to take a Hebrew message somewhere. That's right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03With a cultural expectation, he's gotta like preach from like a wide spirit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, now he's gonna go to a bunch of people that you know don't know anything about Christianity, right? And he's asking them to give, right? But he takes them back to to the you know, that God wants to bless you and you know, all those things, right? So, and so sometimes even we say that, like you should give because God wants to bless you, and in the meantime, I'm the recipient of your giving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is manipulation and coercion, yeah, right. And so I think we have to be really careful. But the other side of it is that scripture doesn't teach us to to to judge first where you're giving.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't teach us to it says give.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Give. Right. And uh so I I would never want for myself, I'm not gonna talk about other people, but for myself, I would never want to stand in judgment of what the house of God or what the leadership does. No with finances. Yeah, right. Um more so too, because I actually believe that you know, like if you look at what God is doing in the earth today, what's he doing? He's he's restoring people's hearts to the Father.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00He's healing people, yeah. He's he's and he's got ambassadors, he's got churches, yeah, he's using the church. Like, you know, I personally love to share about Christ to people, but nobody's knocking on my door saying, Hey, what must I do to be saved?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. It could be cool if it would happen, but yeah, yeah, it doesn't happen often.
SPEAKER_00But people are bringing people to church, yeah, and in the in the context of our community, they're feeling the presence and the love of. God and people are being healed, people are being restored. I've seen literally thousands of people come to the Lord because I was sent out preaching the gospel, you know, in other nations, right? So there's this um joy and satisfaction about extending the kingdom of God, yeah, right, through humanity. And that requires support, that requires uh engagement. Like how so many people don't get the opportunity to be a pastor, to be a teacher, yeah, right. But there's a there's a requirement. You don't want it, just you know, stay away, right? Yeah, um tell you some horror stories, huh? But the way the structure is is that you know, and even in the Levitical system, right, the nation had to support the people that carried on the work of the kingdom of God, yeah, right. And so, you know, you might not do it right all the time. Brody, Pastor Brody might not do it right all the time. I pastored for years, I might not have done it right. Pastor Dave might not have done it right all the time, right? But when people come and give in faith, right? And it's not even about Pastor Ed or Pastor Brody or Pastor Dave, it's about honor to the Lord. That's right. When your heart aligns itself with advancing the kingdom of God through the biggest organization that exists in the world, the church. Yeah, right. Um, I'm like, why wouldn't I want to give? Everybody wants my money. Everybody wants my money. McDonald's, yeah, you know, everybody wants the banks, everybody wants my money and they want it, you know, the taxation. Everybody does, right? Why wouldn't I want to contribute to the most amazing place where people's lives are being touched, families are being made whole. So good. There's teaching and training going on, there's an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. There's lives that are maturing, and and and man, that just rocks my boat. Like I just get excited. And so when I see that, I want to give to that. That's such a good thought. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So yes, there's abuse. Yes, there's manipulation, yes, there's coercion. Um, we all have to stand before the Lord. Yeah. You know, on what we do. I would be careful. Um, you know, I believe in being part of a community, right? I believe in a community that actually advances the kingdom of God in their neighborhood and in the world, and you know, and so I believe in contributing to my community that's doing that. Yeah. Not to the exclusion that we're higher or better, but totally. I'm a participator in this family that stands for these values and wants to do this, and my money and my commitment is there. Yeah, right. So I think it's a faith thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, a belief. Grace over guilt kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, Paul says it like don't, you know, don't give under coercion or compulsion. Yeah. Right. Uh matter of fact, he says in Philippians, he says, um, don't give for my gain. Yeah. Give for your gain. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like he's like, give for your own heart's sake.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Give for, you know, and when we have that heart, I just see, you know, the multiplication of, you know, finances.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, even on that too, like, um, like I I'm always reminded, like, we, I mean, we try to, like, even at our church, and you know that's too, like, we we really try to like it's always hard on a stage to talk about giving. It's hard because you want to make sure that you're not you're not promising someone something that is actually not like biblically true. But like it's um I we I mean we say this a lot. We say we don't give to get, but we get to give. And it's like and it's flipping the the idea of like it's it's actually a privilege for me to give. Yeah. And and again, it comes from a revelation because if I don't have a revelation, what what privilege is it to give away my money for like what is just yeah, and and but but to to come to that place and actually it's like change, it's like rearranging my heart. And and obviously once you've had that revelation of of God's love, and and I I think I this is like my favorite thing to say um is that God first gave, and it's it's exactly what you had said. Like God's a giver, he first gave, and he gave to people that didn't really deserve it, right? Like we don't deserve the generosity that he that he first gave, but he gave it because simply because he loves us and he wants us to know that he loves us and he wants us to come into relationship with him. No other reason, right? No other, no other weird back way or like some sort of hidden message. It's like I'm giving to not for you to you know give back, but I just he just gave. He just gave. And he gave knowing that we would be selfish, right? It's just kind of crazy. Like you don't, you don't give someone a hundred bucks that you know that they are never gonna pay you back. Like you don't give it out of a joy in your heart. You're like, oh man, I gotta give Frank a hundred bucks again, and I'm probably never gonna see it again. Like I'm never gonna see it come back to me. But it's that idea of like, hey Frank, you need a hundred bucks again? All right, right, bless you. And it's like you we have to, it's almost like we have to change our, like you're saying, like our mentality towards giving to to even in those situations to not to not be not to like attach a little string to that hundred bucks and be like, right, you know, oh bless you, Frank, and then and then in our minds be like, he better pay me back.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. It's almost like you give it away and you say, Okay, it's out of my hands now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. I think sometimes it's easier to give to somebody in need. Sure. Right. Yeah. Apart from, can I use the word the institution of the church when when there's this, you know. Um, I remember Lisa's dad when he was, you know, a young, uh teenager, his mother passed away. Lisa's grandmother passed away. And uh they lived within three blocks of a church, a particular church. I'm not gonna mention the church, right? And when she passed away, they came knocking on the door for the tithe. And the family was in mourning and devastated, and then this terrible UOS came tearing by the door, right? And that was a trigger in Lisa's dad's life that he was never gonna ever set foot in a church. Yeah, I mean that's right, it's almost warning. So that was it, yeah. That was so that was one person's um experience. And I'm saddened. I'm saddened by that. And I'm saddened if we've hurt people in a sense of um, you know, demanded your giving or tried to extract giving through manipulation or coercion. Yeah. So that's one side of the coin. The other side of the coin is that scripture is replete with the word blessing. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And uh, you know, you know, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, the cups running over because of a generous heart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And God says test me. Right. That's like the I think that's the only place in the Bible He says to test them in, right? It's like our finances. Exactly, right? You know, like try me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, try me and see if I don't open up my windows and pour out, right? You know, and I'm just like that's that again is a revelation. Yeah, exactly. If you uh see God as um, you know, just demanding things from you so that you can gain entrance into your eternal life, yeah. Um, we're we're missing the boat. Yeah, right. But when we see this through the eyes of uh allowing us to participate in the very thing that's on his heart, yeah, right. Um, so you know, I've had to stand in front of people and and uh my hope is that I'm not asking for money, I'm teaching.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. You're bringing a revelation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm teaching the principles of becoming generous and giving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. Even though there's obedience to the word of the Lord. Yeah, exactly. Right? We don't like the word obey. No, right? But it takes it, you know, you have to obey first to move to honor. Wow. Yeah, right. Yeah, like honor comes, you know, as a result of listening and obeying. That's right. And then and then you go further. Right? Obeying is just the minimal requirement, doing what you're asked to do. That's good, yeah. Being what you're told to do. That's that's obedience, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Honor, honoring the Lord is is is giving him your whole life and going way beyond anything that you know is required of you, yeah, and giving him your whole life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Which is a a different uh, you know, and so And that's kind of and that's kind of the parallel between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. You have kind of like obedience turning to what Jesus is calling almost like us to start honoring with our life. Absolutely. Instead of just simply obeying. I love that point. That that it's like the yeah, the minimum requirement, and it turns into something that's like, I I I don't even think about it. It's like it's a part of my life. Yeah, right. I love I love that piece. You're you're saying before I interrupted you, something else.
SPEAKER_00No, that's okay.
SPEAKER_03No, keep keep going on your thought if you had more, but no, I'm finished on that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I actually believe that we want to live a life of of honor. Yeah, yeah. Not just obedience. Bare minimum, yeah. Right. And so, you know, and how do I honor the Lord, right? Yeah, do I honor his people? Do I value like you know, we call the church the bride of Christ, right? I'm not talking about the institution, I'm talking about the people, love with the people, yeah, right, which makes up our community. Yeah, we're an institution because of the laws of the land. Yeah, we're not an institution because of the the you know, the ordinances of God. That's right, right. And so uh I just think that you know it's such a great thing to be part and to be honoring the Lord by giving to the community he's put us in. Yeah. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I mean, I think I was on a train and I went off on a rabbit trail, but I was talking about the benefits. I want to come back to that because I think that's a real part of it. Like again, again, like the the point of giving is not like we say this in our church and I and I believe this across the board. Like we don't give to get. It's a it's an honor. We talked about that. It's an honor to be generous, but um, there is, like you're saying, there is a blessing. Absolutely. There is a blessing. And I don't know if you wanted to talk about some of those, maybe in maybe in your own life or if you had any uh like moments where you know I'm sure you have a ton. Absolutely. I'm sure you have like a list of things that like where you and Lisa were like, I don't, yeah, we're just doing it because you know, it doesn't even make sense to our budget right now to give. And but we're doing it because this is what we feel like we're supposed to do, and we feel like this is how we're gonna honor God. And and I'm sure like uh you have like a billion stories. I don't know if you wanted to share a few of those with us.
SPEAKER_00Well, right off the beginning, like I shared with you, you know, I was making good money when I was a kid. And uh in that process, I wasn't giving.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right. And in my conversion experience, uh, which was a really a love experience, a conversion, you know, that I wanted to yield to the Lord, but I also loved the Lord, loved what He did in my life, and I wanted to see that in other people's lives, right? So, you know, we we I quit logging and signed up for Bible school, and that's how I ended up.
SPEAKER_03Which people would think you're crazy in that time, probably.
SPEAKER_00In that time, yeah. Um yeah, just it was crazy. It was great, it was great though. Yeah, right. And uh so we were budgeting and we Lisa and I got married and we we did it out of budget, and we wanted to make sure that we were giving. And so, you know, um that was that was paramount. But I also wanted a house. I wanted to start saving for something for us, for our family. Yeah, right. And I'm like, you know, I'm making six bucks an hour, working part-time, started serving. Actually, I started serving at the church one day a week, you know, so um just for nothing, just because I wanted to serve and be a blessing, right? So we were serving in the youth department. But I wanted to have a house. And so we started saving money for a house. And uh, you know, like 10 bucks, yeah, 50 bucks, you know, 100 bucks, but we had a house fund, right? And we were serving in the youth department, and we got a phone call from one of the people in the church and said, Hey, there's a lady in the church here that um has three kids that are going to heritage Christian school and uh she can't afford her insurance on her car. And so she's not gonna she's gonna have to pull her kids out of school. Wow and uh she's not gonna be able to because she can't drive the kids. She, you know. And uh, you know, if you would consider giving a little bit, that would be wonderful, right? And by this time, Lisa and I had saved, I think it was a thousand dollars for our house fund. Yeah, yeah. And uh so I said to Lisa This is like nineteen, what, nineteen? This would have been nineteen ninety one, ninety two. So you had one million dollars at the bank.
SPEAKER_03You had a lot of money. A thousand bucks. It was a thousand bucks, is a lot of money back then, though. Yeah, back then it was a lot of money. Even 20 years ago. I mean, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00But you know, to get that thousand dollars, you didn't go out for dinner. No, you you you you know, you just saved from that. And you said no to a lot of things. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And uh, you know, so I went to Lisa with it and we we prayed, and we just both heard the Lord say, like, give it. Wow, give you a thousand bucks. I'm like, can't do that. The logical brains, which is a hundred. I'm trying to be a good Christian and a good husband, right? I'm trying to be that's mine, right? That's mine, right? We worked so hard for that. God's like, is it? And uh you know, we gave it and joy just filled our heart. Wow, and we saw the the people never knew that we gave, right? And we just saw the kids thriving in the Christian community. Amazing. Uh you know, and then um I don't know, it was so we saved another thousand, yeah, right? And uh, I think there was a call for it was before for Cuba, but some missions, yeah, some missions thing, right? And you know, uh we just felt, Lord say, give it. Wild. Like, not again. And I'm like, oh no, please. And so, you know, and now we're starting at zero, yeah, right? But um, no, we we actually weren't because God sees what you're doing, right? Yeah, and uh I think it was uh two years later, uh Lisa's grandma passed away and her mom got an inheritance. And I mean that's Lisa's mom's inheritance. We weren't yeah, we didn't we didn't know about it and didn't have our eye on it, so it wasn't an expectation. And and Lisa's mom came to us and said, Hey, you know what? We we we want to give you some money. We want to give you ten thousand dollars. Wild. Well, I couldn't have saved ten thousand dollars off of my income in the first five years of our marriage. There's not a chance, right? And uh so we were blessed, and I knew right away what we would do with the ten thousand dollars because we were we were saving for our house, right? Yeah, so in in I think it was nineteen ninety-six or seven, we bought our first house. Yeah, right. That's amazing. That's just a that's just a small thing. Yeah. But uh, you know, we've just seen the Lord bless us and cover us so many times. You know, uh one time we were on a trip to uh we had 14 students and went to Mexico on a missions trip, but we stopped in at the States in uh Phoenix, Arizona, and we ministered in the northern part of California. We took a whole team down to minister there, and we had to drive out of northern Mexico back into Phoenix to fly down to Acapulco and minister with our missionaries down in Puerto Escondido at the time. And uh we get to the airport after a week of ministry in uh northern Mexico and uh the southern states uh in Arizona, and uh the lady at the desk says, Well, your plane left three hours ago. And I was devastated. And right on my ticket, it said no refund. Oh no, no return, right? And I was like, I'm standing down there at the airport with 14 students and my wife, so 16 of us.
SPEAKER_03Anxiety. That's all I can feel.
SPEAKER_00And I yeah, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, I can't even save $10,000. How am I gonna pay $14,000 worth of flights to get these guys on the way? And so I so my first response was I turned around to the team and I said, You need to pray. And they prayed. And then I said to the Lord, I said, Lord, you knew this was going to happen. Why didn't you tell me? Right? Come on, but I felt like I felt like a son. And I'm like, Dad, yeah, yeah, you knew this was gonna happen. You could you could have just woke me up, you could have warned me, you could have said, but you didn't. And so then I started to put things together and I realized that had we made our flight on time, we wouldn't have had our service the night before in Agua Prieta on the border of Mexico. And 50 people keep their hearts to the Lord in that service, right? And so I thought, well, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So I said, Lord, do you want us to have uh some outreach here in Phoenix, Arizona for the next week? Or like what do you want me to do? Like, what do you want me to do? We're here now, yeah. Right. And the lady in the in the uh at the desk of the airline, she starts working, she says, Hey, she says, I can get you some flights in a half an hour to Mexico City, and then they'll take you to Acapulco the next day, and we can reroute you. And I said, What's that gonna cost? So she says, you know what? It's on us. Wow. And I'm like, Lord, you go my behind here. You're recovering, right? Yeah, that's crazy. So then I say, okay. Uh she says, Well, do you want some mail vouchers for your team when you arrive in Mexico City? And I said, Yes, please, that'd be really nice. You know, we'll get some food and we'll find a place to crash in the airport overnight, right? We arrive, so we get on the plane, the plane is empty. There's five people on the plane plus a stewardess. So we started to share the Lord with them, and the stewardess gave her heart to the Lord on the plane. That's just insane. Such a cool stuff. That's so cool, right? Then we arrive in Mexico City, and I go to the the desk of the airline to pick up our meal vouchers, and she says to me, Oh, she says, just take your team outside. There's a van waiting for you, and they'll want to take you to the hotel. And I'm like, What do you mean, the hotel? She says, Yeah, we got you a hotel, and uh, they'll come pick you up in the morning and take you to the airline for your flight to Acapulco. So we walk into the hotel, and it's like late evening, yeah, right. And they said, There's a meal waiting for you down in the in the meal hall or the right. So we walk in there, and here's this spread of food. Like any kind of steak, you wanted chicken, frog leg soup, like grapes and cheese were hanging off of bowls, and there's just like it's like a king's meal. It was absolutely stunning. And I heard the Lord say to me, you know, I had prepared this for you before you even knew, right? And I was just like, Oh God, you're so good. Yeah, right. And so those are just little stories, but we've experienced our whole life the the blessing of the Lord in miraculous ways. And you might be able to save a thousand, his hand is much bigger than your thousand. Yeah, he just and it's not just monetary return, it's actually feeling like he's got you covered, exactly, you know, yeah in the process. And that's, I mean, we could go on and on and on, you know, of of that kind of blessing. Yeah. Um, and I believe it's because, you know, when your heart is aligned to do what's on God's heart, yeah, God's heart is aligned to do what's on your heart. That's amazing. Yeah. So, you know, there's you just can't out give your dad. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Well, I love that, I love that too, because it's it's yeah, like you said, it's not about the monetary value, because again, like you're like scrounging and saving a thousand bucks. Yeah, but it's almost like that question comes up. It's like, are you willing to give this away? Absolutely. And and not know, not know what's next. Not know what's right. And that's the whole, that's the whole idea. Faith is like, are you willing, are you willing to take a step and not know what's next? But you you trust me. Yeah, right? You trust me. And it's and it's again, it's not about the thousand dollars because again, he dumps 10 times that amount into your hands, yeah, you know, right when you guys are ready to go. Yeah. And I think that's just so cool. That's such an amazing testament because again, it's not it's not about, you know, oh, if I give, if I start tithing, that's gonna happen to me. Well, maybe it will because that's the there's a part of that, the principle of uh of the blessing of God inside of that, but that's not what it's about. And it's and I and I love that that viewpoint, that mentality, that that idea of just like, hey God, you know, I trust you. Yeah, I trust you. Yeah, it doesn't matter what you ask me. Yeah, I trust you.
SPEAKER_00We're not trying to like we're not trying to give to accumulate wealth.
SPEAKER_03Right.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03Because what are you gonna do with it?
SPEAKER_00Right like at least and I don't have kids, so you know I'm not leaving you know a pile of money to my kids because there is none, right? So but it that's not even our motive. Our motive isn't to accumulate wealth. Like you know, when Israel walked through the wilderness and they they were given manna. That's right. So just take enough for today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Yeah. But tomorrow take enough for two days. Right? Yeah. And um don't worry about next week. Don't worry about you know the other things, right? And so, you know, that's been that's where we live.
SPEAKER_03And isn't it when they started collecting it? Yeah. They started they started being like, well, we need to like make sure that we're good for next week. Absolutely. When God tells us not to worry about it, but hey, let's make and it yeah, it turned to mold and there's like worms.
SPEAKER_00So I'm not saying that we shouldn't um save and have a financial strategy. Yeah. And in that financial strategy, we give. Yeah. Right? That's all part of it, right? But uh our goal is not to just get more and get more, and you know, the guy dies with the most wins. Yeah, yeah. Has nothing to do with that. Has everything to do with. I mean, even Lisa has wanted to be a secret millionaire, right? Yeah, to be able to give away.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. Not to not to be a millionaire, but to be able to give. Absolutely. That's amazing. Absolutely, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh, I think another piece, you know, for you know, uh what I've seen in my experience as a pastor is we've had mission, we have missions. Yeah, right. And there's there's been giving to missions. And um my my ask for missions was not because I needed to meet a budget. Yeah. My ask I I personally felt like I was an intercessor for the broken and the lost. Right. And so unashamedly I would stand up in front of people and ask for money.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Not because there was any gain for you for me or the church, yeah, even though I had the privilege of being able to go. But oftentimes we we gave and we gave and we gave. This church has given so much, like the Cuban pastors, the nations that we've given to, the Bible schools we've given to, the churches that have been planted, you know, it's all on the the earned blood, sweat, and tears of our congregation on the giving. And and so when we stand up and actually ask for money apart from the tithe, yeah, right. Um, I actually feel like we're intercessors between the poor and the people that don't have and people that have. Yeah, right. Yeah. And being able to be a conduit of that transfer to the kingdom of God and bringing that to, you know, the people that need it. That's amazing. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And I I I think about our church. I think we have a very, very generous church. I've got to go. Yeah. Yeah. It's always been a big, I would say a foundation inside of our church. And it's it's awesome to be a part of.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And so these podcasts, this conversation, like I hope that people understand that um we want to mentor and disciple generosity.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Not because of our budget, but before you because of your gain, because so that your heart becomes aligned with what God's heart is aligned with.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And when we when we embrace what the kingdom of God, uh, what the the world needs the kingdom of God. We like there's just not, they don't need anything else. No. But the power of the gospel, the love of Christ, the the power of the Holy Spirit. So when we're giving, give with, feel like a participant in advancing the kingdom of God. That's right. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And you know, it's funny, we say this, and I might get shot for this, but we say this often, you know, God multiply what's been given. Yeah. Right? I think he just wants us to be wise and stewards. That's right. Given. Yeah. Right? That's right. Um, because God can do uh a million dollars worth of things on a thousand dollars. That's right. Yeah. Right? Like he he doesn't need to multiply, no, that, but that is multiplication, right? Like he he uh he just wants to see our heart. He wants our heart engaged in what he's interested in. And when his heart when our heart is engaged, man, you just feel like uh, you know, I don't know what the guy felt like when he was uh in scripture give gave his donkey to Jesus or you know, the boat or you know, all these things, but the kid with the fish and the that would have been cool if it was my donkey and Jesus got to ride it, right? Like uh yeah, so uh I love it when he gets to use my money exactly that came from him in the first place.
SPEAKER_03It's beautiful. Yeah. Um, well, I wanna I want to run wanna wrap up this episode, but I want to wrap it up with some practical advice. Uh and you've gave so many great thoughts and points, and I love your wisdom, and and there's a lot of practical in it. But I I just wanted to kind of end with this because just thinking about maybe people who are thinking, um, maybe even like that thought process of or of like, you know, maybe it's too late to start, you know, or or it's kind of like that idea of like you know, you taught an investing class. It's like it's never too late to start. Like there's kind of like that fear and anxiety surrounding that idea of like, well, you know, I'm in my 30s or in my 40s and I haven't like saved a penny. Like, what or like how do I start? But it's kind of like that same idea of like of giving. Maybe someone's like nervous or afraid to start giving because maybe you know, things are already tight. Yeah. And it's like, well, how do I give when I don't have much to give? Or how do I give out of of something that you know I don't even have enough to like get gas in my car? Right. Like, but where do I start? Maybe someone is is watching today, and I hope I hope they're watching today. Uh, and and maybe even just thinking about that, like that that question, like where do I start? How do I kind of get my my feet into this, or or what's a good place to to start going to?
SPEAKER_00Right. I think that you know I believe in the power of a budget, not because um you know it it it binds me, it actually frees me. So what a budget does for me is is I feel like I'm the ruler over the resource that God's given me. Yeah. So I'm the steward, I'm I'm being intentional. Yeah. Right. Uh I've been in places personally, in like I said in the beginning, at least as in my life, we couldn't afford to give. That's right. Yeah. But we gave because we made it a value. Right. And we saw the blessing of the Lord in that. Yeah. Right. Um Jesus sat at the temple and watched the people giving, and then he admired the widow that came in and gave the the few coins, right? And uh what incredible faith to give out of out of nothing. And um again, when we see broken and poor, you know, in our in our congregation or amongst us, right? It's not like we want to take it from them. Yeah. But if they can actually catch on to the revelation of how good God is and want to align themselves with what little they have. Yeah. Right. Um I believe that uh heaven's window, the resources open up. Yeah. Right. So I'm a firm believer in in giving you know, Isaac sowed seed in the middle of a famine. That's right. Yeah. Right? And uh God prospered him. Wild. You know. Uh Jacob, the the sheep with the stripes and you know, the spotted sheep and lambs and the goats, and you know, there's this there's this uh ushering in of heaven's help in our need. Yeah. That's that it's just absolutely amazing. So you know, I think that that's why the scripture in Malachi is about test me. Like just watch to see what I will do. Right. So if you're listening and you're struggling and and uh you're struggling with finances and there's just more days than paycheck, and yeah, and there's not enough food on the table and all of those things, man. Look for ways to participate in the kingdom. Yeah, look for ways to be intentional. And uh, you know, I think that there's people that are really struggling, and then there's people that stop off at Starbucks every day but don't give.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. And and so my cup of coffee, my Starbucks coffee is out of my uh abundance, not out of my you budgeted for that coffee. I budgeted for this cup of coffee, right? But no, I'm just saying that that that um I think we have to assess our our values and our priorities. Sure. Yeah right. And um if you're a son of the most high God, he just he's just excited and wants to see you participate in the kingdom. That's right. Yeah, right? Yeah, and so uh there's a measuring stick, and we see lots of parables about people that multiplied and gave and were blessed, and people that withheld and and didn't, and and there was a poverty that came. Right. And so I'm a firm believer that you can almost give yourself out of poverty. Right. Wow. But um that's that's a point of faith. That's not a point of, you know, you should be doing that. No, no, you need a revelation of how big God's hand is and who he is, yeah. Um, and how he wants to look after his kids and how he wants to bless us so that we can be a blessing.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_00Um if we get that revelation, then I think that that along with intention, okay, I'm going to do this. Yeah. Right. So we give off of the first of our increase. That's right. Yeah. The first fruits. Yeah. The first line item on my budget is tithe. Yeah. That's not legalism. Yeah. It's it's my heart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's my heart.
SPEAKER_03And it's smart too. Because you can easily put that line below and be like, I'll get to it. Yeah. Right. And then all of a sudden, when you get to it, oh, it looks like we don't have enough.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, there's lots of reasons why we wouldn't want to have.
SPEAKER_03It's like, yeah. Yeah, that that line could go down, but it's like if it's at the top, it's like, okay, no, this is this is the first thing I'm doing. It's always been a good thing. It's the most important thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And and you know, we might not be able to make this payment, but we're making this one. Yeah. Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So when I when I I know we're probably running out of time, that's okay. You know, but when I gave my heart to the Lord and I came to KCC. KCC was the first church that I I came to after I gave my heart to the Lord, right? And uh in the years that I logged, 11 years, I made substantial amounts of money for a kid.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Never tithe. Right. And then in my journey to the Lord, I got this revelation of giving that uh blew me away. And I'm like, I want to give and make up for all the years I missed. Just like just that's not all right. Right. And so we've tried. Like we just we try to give and give and give, right? Yeah. And so uh That's amazing. I just yeah, that that's what's so I'm talking about a hard issue. Yeah, right? Yeah. Um, be around people that are generous, be around people that love to give. Like we all have been recipients of somebody's giving and how it makes us feel. And then when you see the scripture that says it's more blessed to give than to receive, uh, that table gets flipped. Yeah, right. And I think that that's really important for us. So if you're learning, if you want to align your life with uh, you know, God's principles and values and be a kid in the family that looks after the family business, yeah, right. Then I think we have to be intentional with our giving. And we have to uh resist the temptation to just be a consumer and buy things as they come, yeah, but be be intentional and budget it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's amazing advice. I I want to say thank you so much for being on the podcast with us. First time guest, awesome, you killed it, did so amazing. And and just thank you for your wisdom and your willingness to be, even just how transparent you are with. I mean, it's such a touchy topic. We we talked about that at the beginning, but I just want to say thank you, Pastor Red, for being with us today. And I hope that uh, you know, I hope that you know, as a listener, uh you were encouraged today and this conversation would help you. If you have uh you know questions, you can always reach out to us, or even in the comment section, you can comment. Um uh even if you didn't like the episode, you can comment, or if you love the episode, you can comment. Or uh yeah, you can always reach out to us for KCC Church. Um, and uh yeah, we just hope that again just encourages you and blesses you. Uh like and like, share, and subscribe uh to our YouTube channel. It helps us uh just get the word out, and we'll see you next time on the mezzanine floor.
