The Mezzanine Floor
The Mezzanine Floor is a podcast that creates a space for conversations concerning the christian life as we walk out living in the tension between heaven and earth.
Join our host, Pastor Malachi Maillot and his guests as they wrestle with how we ought to live with a heavenly mindset in an earthly body.
The Mezzanine Floor
Season 3 Ep 4 - Called
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This month, Malachi, Logan, Danya, and Jeff reflect on their church's sermon series "Called." They explore the tension between what we feel in a given moment and what we know to be true, and how that gap shows up across every area of life. They also dig into what it really takes to heal from past experiences and grow as people: a level of honesty that doesn't come naturally to any of us.
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All right.
SPEAKER_06Well, welcome back to the Mezzanine 4 Podcast where we talk about living in the tension between heaven and earth. Thank you for tuning in to this episode once again. Uh, we hope that you've been enjoying this new format that we've been doing. Uh, follow us on YouTube at KCC Church, Spotify. Um, it always helps when you like these videos or the podcast, and you can leave a comment, uh, leave some feedback. But each month we've been taking time to uh just reflect on our series of our sermon series uh each month and just I'm gonna restart that. Each month we've been taking time to reflect on our sermon series. Um each month we're gonna be taking time to reflect on the sermon series that we've been going through uh with our church and just to kind of explore different avenues, perspectives, different tensions, getting different people on the podcast uh just to talk about their different experiences, even just different takes that they have of the clips that we're gonna be showing today. Um I reck we also recognize, too, that uh if you're not a part of KCC Church, some of these clips are just like random for you. Um we'd encourage you to go to our YouTube and actually watch those sermons through uh all the way through so you can kind of get a little bit of a context of what we've been talking about. So, again, with me, uh we have back, he's no longer a first-time guest, but he's gonna be hopefully regular, is Jeff Turner Hayes. Uh, and we have a first-time guest and actually first woman on our podcast, which is amazing, uh, Dania Anthony. And back again with us is Logan. He's our producer, and he is gonna be showing the clips and some posing some questions for us to just talk about. Um, and uh so last month our our series was called Called. It's kind of an interesting way to say it, but it was called Called, and we kind of focused on the four pillars of our church uh to know God, find freedom, discover your purpose, and make a difference. And so uh Logan, you can take it away and we're gonna start with the first clip.
SPEAKER_02A wandering mind is a dangerous mind. It gets caught in the feelings, it gets caught in the gentle, in the quiet moments when you're just going to bed. I'm just gonna go on Instagram for a bit. And then all of a sudden those thoughts start to get hijacked. You know what? Other people have more than you, and you're not doing enough, and no one knows what you're going through. And it wanders, your mind begins to wander instead of what the scripture says, you need to put a centurion, a guard against the enemy that's gonna come to try and rob and steal and destroy from you. And he's gonna do it up here first until it translates out here. You can either let the world happen to you, or you can define what happens in the world that you're living in.
SPEAKER_05I think this clip highlights an issue that all of us face to a degree, and uh that is being led by our emotions. I think nowadays we kind of tend to like a lot of people think being emotions led or feelings led kind of leans more towards like an LGBT thing or personal identity issues. But I think it's something that all of us struggle with uh is making that choice between doing what we feel is right and doing what we know is right. What do you guys think about that?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think about the quote Um feelings make an excellent servant, but a horrible master. Right? Like our feelings are there, they're designed by God and they're designed to be like warning flags or symbols of like, hey, you're angry, why? Right? We're not supposed to camp on that feeling, we're supposed to go a bit beyond that feeling. Why am I angry? Why am I sad? Why am I anxious in this moment? And they're that warning flag or that flare setting up for us, and then we're not supposed to be defined by our feelings, right? Yeah. I I pose it to my little girl this way, she's six years old, and we're dealing with feelings right now. And I'm trying to teach her about feelings before they like overrule her. And it's like, okay, somebody can drive the car right now, right? So is sadness driving the car right now, or is Olivia driving the car? Because sadness is gonna make some bad decisions and gonna drive you to a consequence or a place that you don't want to go, but Olivia makes good decisions, right? So framing it in that way that hey, like feelings are a servant and they're there for a reason. They're in the car for a reason, but they can't be behind the steering wheel because they make horrible decisions every single time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that or on the other side, they could make they could help you make a good decision too. Cause I think that's another like other side of the coin is sometimes that feelings they get a bad rap too. And I think like there's a lot of feelings that are are really good. And like you said, to your point, like it actually does show that something is going on. Um, so I think like obviously when you're dealing with girls and women, um, it is like it's so important to and probably men as well, but obviously I'm coming at it from a woman's perspective, um, and teaching my daughter a little bit as well. But feelings are valid, but they're not like what you're feeling in the moment can be really valid, but it doesn't always mean that what's going like it's the truth. So validating feelings and bringing truth, I think is is super important to do.
SPEAKER_04100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's I I I really related with the Jeff's thought with the the driver, um, talking about like how yeah, feelings like you're designed to have feelings, and that's it's like they're supposed to help in a sense like guide you, like guide you in like something's wrong, and and I have this feeling about this. Or something's right, or something's right, and and but again, like to make decisions through like a sober mind, and I think um those those feelings can help you kind of figure out where you're at. And I love that idea of like who's driving the car is you know, for me, it's like is anger driving the car today, or is like Malachi driving the car? Because if if anger is driving my car, like I'm gonna make like really rash kind of decisions out of out of frustration. And I think me and my wife talked about this that we're never gonna make big decisions out of like a state of chaos. And I think that's really important to do um and to think about, because again, it's like it can't be your GPS, like it can't be the thing that's telling you, you know, go left, go right. And I think it's the thing that has to make sure it warns you, okay, well, if we go left, like this can happen, or this if we go right, like we have to make sure we understand where we are when we are making those decisions. And I think especially when even Pastor Bertie's talking about um like bad decisions can happen sometimes at night when we're feeling like when we're feeling lonely or we're feeling vulnerable, um, and especially with like comparison, and it's not just in girls. I think a big I think it always kind of like links to girls are always comparing each other, but I think guys are too. Like we're comparing like our life and comparing like the things that we have. And I think this is like a universal human thing that we do. And I think that it's a dangerous, I think that's what he's kind of getting at is a dangerous space for us to allow ourselves to like we can feel those feelings, but I think when we're actually like we're meditating on it day and night, and we're letting those things again, like we wake up and we're like, we're kind of still in that headspace, and we haven't, you know, maybe taken time to like ask God, you know, why am I feeling this way, or ask our spouse or a friend, you know, here's how I'm feeling, and validate those feelings. And obviously, like those aren't just like, oh, this is just me thinking, you know, they're lonely like you and just shove it under the rug and like, oh, well, I, you know, I'm not lonely, whatever. Like, that's stupid. But that's I think that's tend to what guys typically do is we will shove things under the rug because it's like, well, I can't feel that way. But I think what you're saying is like we should validate those feelings. We should actually, you know, why am I angry or why am I feeling lonely when I have this amazing family and friends around me? Like, why am I feeling like I shouldn't feel this way because of my circumstance, but it's like, okay, I actually have to ask myself why. And validation is, I think, really important key in that as well.
SPEAKER_03And there's also usually a deeper, there's something deeper going on, right? Sure. For most of the sometimes there's literally not. Um, but for most of those things, you're like, well, there's got to be something more going on. And I think that if you are constantly evaluating your your emotions and your feelings and saying, where are these actually coming from? Um, that will really help you to move on and to get into a clearer frame of mind. She's like, okay, well, I'm feeling really angry. Um, and then it couldn't even would be sorry, it could be something that didn't even happen to you that day. Yeah. Like it could be like a week, two weeks down that you've never dealt with that you haven't dealt with yet. So I think like that's really like learning to identify and sometimes like it's nothing. Sometimes it is a nothing feeling, and you can just be like, well, this is nothing, and you don't have to ruminate on it anymore.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So it is, it's complex, but it's also very simple. Yeah. Like I love, I love the idea of Pastor Brody saying, like, place a centurion. Um, I love that, like the visual, like I take it. It's just really neat, yeah, to captive your thoughts, but it's it also doesn't like place it all on you. I feel like that's very beautiful. Like you've got when you have like something in place, um, you don't always have to do all of this work. And I think that that's very beautiful.
SPEAKER_04That links into like another thought I had about this, and it was out of Romans 8. And it talks about like the mind governed by the flesh leads to death, but the mind governed by the Holy Spirit leads to life and peace. Yeah, right. So even taking that framework, kind of like, hey, I'm feeling this, identify it. What's the context? Okay, Holy Spirit, what is truth in this situation? And then move and act accordingly from that piece rather than just, hey, I feel angry, lash out, or even positive. Yeah. Hey, I feel super excited about this and make a poor decision, yeah, an emotional reaction out of excitement or or anything like that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah, I think it's like the filter too, is like really important. Like you're saying, like the the Holy Spirit is that filter, really. Like you're filtering those emotions through. Like, what does the word of God say? And I think I think I was talking talking about this with our our teens on on uh Tuesday, and I was talking about how you know just content, how fear is typically what sells. And my wife literally just sent me like this video of like this guy walking through the store, the grocery store, and like all these things have like these plastics and harmful plastics and harmful toxins, and like in you know, 20, 30, everyone's gonna be infertile. And and I just responded back to that that reel. I was like, well, if God wants me to have another kid, like we're gonna have another kit. And it's like I have to, I have to, yeah, obviously, we have to take in like responsibility for what we ingest and what we do, and and in the same way, not just physically with what food we ingest, but like what content we watch and like what movies we're watching and whatever we're consuming that way, that has a huge positive like huge negative and positive effect on our emotions. And um, we have to go back to what the word of God says and like filter ourselves through that. And I love even in like all through the book of Psalms, like we have David, but he's not afraid of his feelings, like he's not he's not like pushing his feelings aside, he's asking, like, why is my soul so downcast? Like he talks to himself, like, why are you so downcast? Like, what is happening, but I'm not gonna stay, you know, in that space, right? And I think that that's kind of the most important thing for us is to really like you have to understand where you're at, but also filter and and go back to like the word of God, right? Because otherwise we will very easily just fall into that little like spiral.
SPEAKER_04It's the process and the identification, yeah. But like you hit it, it's content too. Like, what am I constantly letting in? Yeah, because that's going to be the lens that I start experiencing everything else through, and it's gonna start dictating those emotions and reactions.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04Like I think about Philippians 4. Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is pure, lovely, right? Think about such things. Yeah, right. It's like, hey, don't consume all this other content that leads to fear, that leads to anxiety, that leads to these things. Consume content like David. Yeah, I've hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03I feel like that's the trap sometimes. I think people, especially these days, they get really like, you know, I need to know what's going on in the world. I have to know. And I'm like, there's things that you probably you don't actually need to go looking for because obviously you'll find it because the world is evil and it's not great. It's not great for your soul, it's not great for your mind, um, or your yeah, emotions or anything like that. So it's just I've been really I've tried really hard to stay away from all of that, but I definitely have fallen into the trap of like when I'm feeling sad, yeah, scrolling, and then I get sadder. Yeah, yeah, and it never works.
SPEAKER_06Your algorithm will just play off of that, right? Absolutely. The moment you linger, it's just gonna feed you more of that stuff. And I think even sometimes with Christian content, I think sometimes it can be like some of it can be unhealthy because there's all these different opinions and all these different like viewpoints. And if you're not actually going back to your word and being like, okay, is that actually true? Like, you know, we have to be really careful with with content in general. And I think I think there was like uh who's talking about this guy, uh John Rush. John Rush, I think he's a pretty famous Christian content creator. Um but he works with a lot of youth and he works in that area. Um, and he was saying you're kind of competing with like you have like eight hours of like, you know, Sunday and youth nights, like eight hours of like kind of church, you know, content opposed to like 180 hours of just like kids just scrolling. And I think for us as adults, it's the same thing. Like we have we probably fall into that 180 hours of just like scrolling and like consuming content or whatever. It's Netflix or sports or whatever it is, and we we kind of only have like this eight-hour window in a week where it's like, okay, I'm you know, reading my Bible along with the the pastor that's that's that's preaching. Yeah, and it's really we should be trying to flip that on its head where it's like okay, what I'm consuming is is the Bible and his word and not just consuming it, but like talking about it with people. And I think that that needs to be maybe the switch that a lot of people need to flip, including myself, like for sure. Like but uh it's a lot of there's a lot of things out there that are not good for us.
SPEAKER_05So I think th those are really good thoughts because I think like it validates in a sense like feelings, like you feel things and you're made to feel things, but um just because you feel a certain way, like feelings aren't necessarily the catalyst, like they're they're a reaction to the things that are going on around you. Uh especially like the where you guys went as far as like content and what we're feeling ourselves with, because um it can maybe it's n maybe the things that we're feeling, whether they're negative, which that seems to be a lot of the conversation, is like I feel this way, so I must have to change this. Like the negative feelings aren't necessarily an indicator of something that's truly wrong, but rather it's a reaction to what we're feeling ourselves with. Yeah. That's really good.
SPEAKER_06Well, even even on that too, like just one last thought that I had, but um, it's like the like your feelings don't necessarily tell you the truth all the time. And it's and I think like people often attribute like the truth with experience. And it's like, well, I could have a really bad experience at AW, but Jeff absolutely loves A and W. And and I think A and W is the worst. But it doesn't mean that that's true, right? And I and I think that if we are like and that's really what is happening in our world is like experience and um oftentimes that's like the feelings are uh making what is true for people. And I think you can't you can't rely on those, and that's kind of coming back full circle to what we started with. We can't rely on those things to be the truth. That doesn't mean they're not real. But it I I could have had a really bad experience in AW, and that's a real thing that happened, right? And it and I would probably make me not want to go to ANW anymore because I'm kind of like that and I'm petty. But it's it's it doesn't mean that you know AW itself is this bad thing.
SPEAKER_03But it also doesn't mean that you can now tell everybody else that AW is bad and they shouldn't go there.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but and that's the only thing. And then but that's what happens, right? You have you have a bad experience at church. Yep. All churches are bad now. Like and you have this like massive deconstruction movement, but that's exactly what's happening in our culture. Like one bad experience doesn't, you know, tell the entire truth in this the whole story. It just it it you should say, okay, well, I'm sorry that happened, you know. I'm sorry that you had this experience and like tell me about it. And I think that that should be the obviously the approach, not just like, well, those people are crazy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_06So yeah, there's two sides to that story, I think.
SPEAKER_05I feel like you see that on full display too, of like um doing what I do. We buy a lot of like stuff, equipment, cameras, that kind of stuff, and we're always looking at reviews on Amazon. Yeah. And you get like you have to like sift through people's opinions on stuff, and it's like you you'll see like negative reviews, and it's like 10 out of 10, you literally just don't know what you're doing, and you broke it, and you're blaming you're blaming the company for it. It's when it's user error. But yeah, it and that's so much of culture too, is like sifting through people who don't necessarily who aren't necessarily looking through the right lens, and they're led more by internal feelings or emotions rather than objective perspective. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I went to Bible school and I thought, well, if I have a sexual problem, I'll marry this beautiful lady, Tracy. She'll become my wife and I'll have an outlet for my sexuality, and then all my problems will be gone. How many know if you have problems, just get married and they'll all be fixed? Not. In fact, marriage doesn't change you. Marriage just reveals more of what it finds in you. The best gift you give to your future spouse is your health. You being a healthy follower of Christ in all areas of your life is the best gift because marriage will just reveal more of that.
SPEAKER_06I didn't get a chance to actually be a part of this one. So maybe I know you you and Aaron were really connected with them. I know Aaron did a podcast with them as well. So I don't know if you wanted to like talk a bit about who they are and um maybe like what they kind of came to the church to do.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So that was Rodney Wright. Um he came with uh a guy named John Begman, and they are from Pure Desire. Um, it is a ministry based out of the United States. Um, they deal with um a lot. They deal with people who are who are sexual addicts, um, who spouses that have been betrayed, um and either of either gender. So it's actually a really neat ministry because it doesn't just focus on like the man's sexual problems, it also uh for women and then betrayed on both ends. They have a whole bunch of really cool resources for um teens and like men and women, and they've got a bunch of really cool groups going on just to um help people experience uh freedom and hope.
SPEAKER_06And we run we run some of their groups.
SPEAKER_03We do, yeah. We do. Yeah, and we are gonna be running more in the fall.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_05So doing this job that I do, uh, one of the biggest lessons I've learned is before we get in the studio and we hit record, uh, I need to make sure that everything is dialed. Like the lighting has to look good so you guys are well lit. The cameras have like the color on the cameras has to look right, so it doesn't look like we're shooting on Mars and everything is orange, like and the microphones have to sound good. But uh, and I do all this, and we do all this because all the work that you put in beforehand saves you from a ton of fixing later in post-production. And that's so much is the same way of marriage, I find, or starting relationships or living life before like you get into serious relationships. It is super valuable to work on yourself and work on the things, deal with your stuff so you don't have to do it later, even if you're not married. But um just growing as a human being, working on your stuff as you see it, uh, benefits you so much because then you don't have to work through it and fix it later when it's now you're now involved with other people or it's affecting other people. Uh and I mean all you guys are married. You guys have been all married longer than I have. Uh so I I guess the question I have is like, how how does that thought resonate with you guys? And maybe like I don't want to ask you you guys to like share anything super deep that you don't want to, but like maybe if you even have some examples like where that's like tan has been tangible in your guys' marriages, where yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I think um in running groups and hearing the stories of a lot of individuals who um we basically only work with married couples right now. Um, I'll deal with women and Aaron will will go with the men. But what we what we do notice is literally exactly what he was saying is that there is a I don't know if it came from the church or just this weird thought that you know if you have a problem, marriage will fix it. Or even like if you have um if you're engaged and you have you're ready to be married and there's an issue there with like let's say Aaron, because obviously that's mine. So if there's an issue with Aaron and I I'm thinking, oh, oh, well, marriage can change that, or I can help him with that, or like that can change. Um, that is what people are going into marriage, or they have been going into marriage with this thought of I will I can change, I can do this, or whatever I'm dealing with, all of my addictions actually can be solved by marriage. And I'm like, I don't even know where that came from. That is such a lie. Um, as we know, because now we are meeting with individuals and couples who have like done some pretty awful things out of their addictions. And like Logan was saying, that are you are you saying that? Like, do they hear you saying that? Or do we just hear you say that?
SPEAKER_05Uh they hear me. I have a camera on me and everything.
SPEAKER_03Right. I don't know that. Um, but yeah, like Logan was saying. I don't know what I was saying anymore. Darn it.
SPEAKER_04Um come into marriage, it fixes it. They've done some horrible things.
SPEAKER_06Where did that thing come from? Where did that truth come from? Is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't remember.
SPEAKER_05I want to I want to expand this a bit more too because I don't want it necessarily to just be in the vein of like um like sexuality, which I think it is a part of it, but I think so much more. Like it can it could be like just personal habits that we have. Oh, yeah. Um it's being married to someone, like you're uh we're talking about feelings and stuff earlier. It's like you have two people who feel things different ways. Yeah. Um, you have two people who have their own issues um who are now with another person and you have to work through those things together, and you accidentally step on the other person's toes, and you you have to like reconcile with that. So yeah, not necessarily just like within sexuality, which is part of it, but like on the on the broader scope of like working through your personal stuff, dealing with that while being with another person.
SPEAKER_04I said this on the last podcast, and I think it applies just as well here. But if you don't heal what hurts you, you'll bleed on people who never cut you. So if I come into marriage thinking, hey, I don't need to deal with these things, like my wife and I can fix it, or like as he was speaking in in portions of it, they're like, Hey, I have a pornography addiction. Once I have sex, that's gonna be gone.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You're not actually healing something, you're just throwing a band-aid on it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04So until like or gasoline. Oh, yeah, whatever it is. But like until you decide that you're going to see that, hey, this is a deficiency I have in my life. I need to solve this deficiency, it doesn't go away with some other act. Yeah, like you have to intentionally look at that thing, you have to intentionally say, hey, that's a problem. And then you have to intentionally go seek help to fix that problem. Yeah. Because we like if you could fix it yourself, it would be fixed before you entered into a relationship. Yeah. Right. I had a friend that went through a pretty ugly divorce, and like one of the first things I told them was like, hey, you need to get your head right because the best thing that you can do for your kids and your family is be the happiest, healthy version of you. Like that doesn't mean you abandon all of your responsibilities and things, but you need to go deal with what's in here so that you can be a good father, so that you can be a good co-parent, so you can be a good whatever it is. But if we're not willing to deal with our own issues, we just drag them into other people's lives.
SPEAKER_03I think the biggest thing on that is people don't know how. Yeah. They don't know where to start, they don't know like who to go to. Um, even for myself, like I've I've gone to see a counselor one time and it was the worst experience I've could ever have experienced. Um, I know more now, like you need to vet them and kind of interview them to make sure that they work for you. Absolutely. But I didn't know that. So I went in being like, oh, this is gonna be so good. This is what I need, and it was not. And it really put me off from any sort of counseling for a really long time. Um, and I think that yeah, finding that starting point is sometimes such a you don't even know, and it becomes such a chore or something that you just can't even don't even have the capacity to think about. Um, so that's why it's really cool here at the church where not every issue, but a lot of things, like we're being a lot more open about. Um, and we're able to be like, hey, if you have an issue in this area, like we've got a group for you. Yeah. Um, that's not everything, but even just in our marriage group, like we want to be able to help you through these things. Um and obviously the goal, like we were saying, is to fix these things before you get married. But like I was saying before, what we're seeing a lot of is is the aftermath of that because people don't know how. Yeah. Right. And now we're trying to now we're trying to fix it. Um, and that's even that's really hard too. So I think knowing where to go and find the right resources is super important because there's some really crappy information out there as well on how to deal with things. And and there's some really good ones, but it's very daunting when you're looking just like I did a Google search one time. It's very specific to my situation, and I could not find anything. Yeah. And so it that was really discouraging because when you're actually on the track to try and do something about it and you can't find any help, yeah, that's hard.
SPEAKER_06Well, I I think even just like go back to I think you were talking about like you asked that question, like, where did this idea come from? Like that people would go into marriage and think that, you know, it's gonna fix all my stuff, or like, you know, my wife will take care of all this stuff, so I don't need to worry about this. And you know, like we talked a little bit about maybe even just outside of like just sexual addictions. Um, you have a guy who just doesn't clean up after himself, like he's probably going to have a hard time. Like they're you the the wife is probably gonna have to be cleaning up after him all the time. And like those are those are things that can be, I think, I think can be like worked on and fixed. But again, it's like this idea that you're trying to fix somebody um in a marriage and it that doesn't work because like you can't fix somebody else other than yourself. And I think to kind of go back to like where that came from, I think historically the church, like we kind of talked about a little bit of like the church has done a really bad job, yeah, about especially in the area of like sexual addiction. Because, you know, all through, you know, probably similar for you guys, um, all through my childhood, it was always like sex is bad, right? Like there's this whole the purity kind of movement, um, like the I kiss dating goodbye thing. And all the youth pastors were like so high on it, and they would just show these to their students, like, hopefully they don't date anybody. I remember my my youth pastor literally said, like they like were like, tell me don't date anybody. Like, and I remember I just started dating people because I was like, I it's just like we don't tell me, like we're not do something. Like, don't touch this like shiny thing. It's like, well, I want to touch the shiny thing because I'm a kid, right? I'm stupid. Yeah, but like again, syndrome. Yeah, this idea of like just avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. And I think that that has been avoid until you get married. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And then don't avoid it anymore. And you're like, I don't even know how to not do that.
SPEAKER_06Well, yeah, and and I think the first time that anybody's actually ever talked to me about um pornography was when I was like 21. And and I think that's just insane. Like for for someone who like I grew up in church, I grew up in youth group. Um, I've been in, I've been volunteering in church for like I would say 90% of my life, it feels like. Um, and for me, you know, that's my experience. I I didn't hear about someone actually talking to me about it and asking me about it um until I was like 21, 22 years old. And so and the all the other time, all that other time beforehand was just avoid it. Like a like like you shouldn't, like you shouldn't struggle with this, but we're not gonna talk about it. You know what I mean? And so then it just becomes like this like shameful thing for uh, you know, I can only speak from like the guy's perspective, and that's what we see is like anytime you talk to any student about it, it's just like as soon as you talk to them about it, it's like they're like the weights get off of their shoulders because that was the shame that was just like you are if you deal with this, you are disgusting, or you are, you know, you're you you should never tell anybody because like why would you ever want to tell anybody about this? Like that's and that's the lie that that the devil loves to put on people. But I think that has been the problem that the church has never addressed in the right way until I think in the last you know, for me, in the last like 10 years, it's starting to come out more and more and more where churches are actually tackling those things and saying like you know, treating it, treating it like sin is sin, but also there's there's sin with higher consequences. If you murder somebody, yeah, like the consequences you're going to jail, right? Like if you if you struggle with sexual addiction in your marriage, you're probably gonna have some serious repercussions, but it doesn't mean it's the end, right? And that's the whole that's the whole purpose of um, I think pure desire is it doesn't need to be the end. Yeah, like there might be some really tough things that you need to like walk through, but it's not the end. It doesn't have to be the end. And that's the hope, right?
SPEAKER_03That's the cool part actually about pure desire. Last year we went to the summit, I talked to um a lady named Ashley Jameson, and she does she actually um writes all the women's material, so it's really neat to be able to meet her. Um, and I just talked about how in our community right now, I guess Canada, like where we're at, um, when you hear of infidelity happening, like you don't hear of many couples that stay together. Um, or if they do, it's very like secret and nobody knows. Um, so they can't even walk another couple through how they did that. Um, but she was telling me that in their ministry, because of what they're doing, they have seen so many couples stay together and are thriving. It's amazing. Um, which is not the normal that I've seen, which is like create it just creates so much hope for you can have something like that happen in in marriage and actually have a beautiful like marriage come out of it.
SPEAKER_04Um I think when you walk through something heavy and both of you commit to walking through it and like conflict well, there's almost a deeper connection on the other side. Oh, totally. But if you don't know how to walk through it, you're not gonna ever achieve that. And I think that's where pure desire is amazing, is they're like, hey, here is some framework. Here is some truth behind some of this, here's the path to walk. And of course it's not a hundred percent, but at least it's way higher odds. Yeah, right.
unknownYeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And just going back to like the other stuff, like the non-uh addiction side of things, like when you when you have a spouse who doesn't want to clean up, and then the wife has to do it all, and it all comes down to communication, right? Like it all comes down to expectation and communication. Um, and I think I'm like, I'm not I'm not blaming the church for anything. I just my personal experience, even in like marriage counseling, yeah, um, premarital, sorry, premarital counseling. Um I don't think I like I love who did ours. And I just don't think they went in depth enough. Um and the flip side of that is we were just in such a weird state of mind too, where we're like, we're getting married. Like we're so excited. So they even if they did go in deeper, I don't even know if we would have been there headspace-wise, but I think this generation, like people who are uh planning on getting married, they're actually they're way more hungry for truth and change and um than we ever were. Yeah. And I think that we can like dive deeper into that and and actually help these couples before they get married. Yeah. There's a lot of hope actually that I see in this next generation, which is really neat.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And I think there are some things that you you kind of have to figure out. Totally. Like you have to like you have to figure out like your wife's um insane like standard of cleanliness of the house.
SPEAKER_04Yours too.
SPEAKER_06And and but but mine, again, like she has to bring her bar down, but I have to bring my bar up. I think that's what we call compromise. And I think that that's a really, really healthy thing in marriage. Um, when people, when two people can compromise. I think you don't start there because it never usually does start there unless you're really like that's your personality. But I don't think I don't think a lot of people start there. It's kind of like, you know, the first couple years is just happy go lucky. Um, maybe not all the time, not all the time. And I would say that, um, and I don't want to get too too in depth with the details of our marriage because Rebecca wouldn't love all of that being on the internet. Um, but like I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say that the first year of our marriage was like happy go lucky. It was a lot of figuring out how to talk and communicate and figure out each other. Yeah. And it was fun, like it was super fun, but there's some, there's, I think there's definitely hard parts to that. And I think that you have to, you have to leave room for that. I think like knowledge is a gift, and I think the more you can prepare somebody for marriage, I remember our marriage counseling was like very specific, like who's gonna take out the trash? Like who's gonna be kind of in charge of laundry, who's gonna be the like the one that vacuums the house? Like, uh and then when you have kids, like you that all changes, like it all goes out the window. And it's and it's and it's this, and you have to be, and I think the word should be for everybody, you have to try and be as adaptable as you can be. Yeah, because um we talk about this idea in in our house, like we hold like the rock of responsibility. Like sometimes I'm holding more of the rock. Uh, you know, the house, the the cleanliness of the house, um, the yard work, like the bills, like I'm gonna I'm gonna hold the rock for a bit while you, you know, you just had a baby. Like you're not thinking about, you know, cleaning the house. And and then, you know, like if I gotta go and and and you know, work is really busy, and okay, here's the rock for you. And you kind of you're kind of passing like the rock back and forth, but it's not a it's not always fair, yeah. Right. And I think that that's the thing about marriage is like it can't be 50-50. And I think that's what people they think about it that way. They they go into marriage and they're like, well, it's gonna be 50-50, everything's gonna be split down the middle. No, it's gonna be like 60-40 sometimes, fair and balance. 20, such like you know, 80, and you're gonna be ticked off about it if you don't understand that it's about adapting and like kind of like I have to bring my bar up and you have to bring your bar down, and vice versa. Like, if my bar is way up here and your bar is way down here, this is unreasonable for me to ask you to like get up to this level. Yeah, well, okay, let's meet in the middle. Where can you like where can you grow and where can I grow? And you know, where can I adapt? And I think that that is a really I think that should be implemented in every like you know, pre-marriage counseling is like adaptability has to be kind of like your middle name in marriage and in relationships, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, God bless is the flexible, yeah. They bend and they don't break. Yeah, the humble, right? Like there's flexibility, like fair and balance aren't a real thing in marriage and life or anything. Like the only thing I can think that is a real thing is rhythm, and rhythm changes, yeah, right? So, like in this season, like you said, hey, I carry this weight or I do this thing, yeah. And in this season you do, but like we get caught up on those words of fair and balance, and yeah, and I did this. Scorekeeping score keeping, that's exactly where I was going. And realizing that, hey, like if both of us are approaching this, that like I'm going to serve this person, right? Like the Bible talks about, like, prefer one another, right? So, yeah, your standards here. I'm gonna come as far as I can to try and meet that, but I need you to meet me here, yeah, and vice versa. And if we both come into that relationship expecting that mindset of like, hey, I'm here to serve that person, then that goes a long way too compared to like, hey, you're here to serve me, right? So why don't you do this? Like that mentality and that thought process leads to horrible places, and it's back into that feelings conversation of like, hey, you made me feel this way. Yeah. Okay, cool. Like, let's sit down and have like, as my dad would say, a grown-up conversation about this. And like, hey, you made me feel this way. Is this what you meant? Like, is this what you expected? Like, lay it out on the table. Like, you married this person, you're there for the long haul. Right? Like the first year is fun, but the first year is also the like one of the toughest. It can be, yeah. Right? Like you're amalgamating two lives, you're bringing two worldviews together, you're bringing two separate family systems together, right? Like, do the forks go up or do the forks go down in the dishwasher? Like, and those are the things we end up fighting the most about. It's not the big thing.
SPEAKER_06Why is their clothes all over the bed? Right?
SPEAKER_04Are they clean or are they dirty? Well, I don't know. Let's figure this out. But it's having that honest, open communication and and being humble and realizing that hey, if my heart posture is I'm here to serve the other person, this is gonna go a lot better. Exactly. And in that heart posture, I want to be the best version I can be for you, right? As he said, like, hey, I want to be the healthiest version of me for you. And that's me serving you in that way.
SPEAKER_06And I think it comes back to that clip, exactly what you said. Like the best thing you can give your spouse is that health, like your best, healthiest self. I think you said that at the beginning, like that can't be understated. And I think when you are your your best, you it's not as if you're like one-upping your spouse if they aren't in a good spot. I think it's like they actually they will see that and they will appreciate it so much more. Yeah, it's like wow, like I want to be like that. And they and then maybe they start working on them. So again, I can't fix, like I can't fix my wife, and she can't fix me. I can fix me. I have to work on me. I have to like chisel away at things in my life and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal things in my life, and yeah, it's gonna constantly come up like that.
SPEAKER_03So there's literally like stats of people who because we get a lot of marriages get caught in that, like, well, I'm not gonna do anything unless you do anything, and like it's just I'm not gonna work on myself, you have to work on yourself. Um, but when one person decides to work on themselves and they're healing, healing their traumas and stuff, it naturally makes the other person do it as well. Yeah. And a lot of times counselors will that's how they will help and just say, you need to fix you. Yeah. The other per not the other person, exactly what you said. Like this, they will they will come alongside naturally because if you're putting in the work, they're gonna see the change and then they're gonna want to put in the work as well.
SPEAKER_06And it just happens naturally, like, and it often doesn't help when the person that wants that person to get help, like by pushing them. Yes, right. That's often has to be their decision and their own motivation has to change.
SPEAKER_03Which is the most frustrating thing in the world as a spouse. Because you're like, why don't you just listen to me? That would have been wonderful. Yeah, um, but it is definitely Holy Spirit driven. Like they need they need to come to that point where they're like, I need to address this. Um and that's why, like another point, like as a wife, I used to find that super frustrating. I would say something to Aaron, and then some a friend would say it, like one of his guy friends would say it, and they'd be like, Oh, my guy friend said this, I'm gonna do that. I'm like, I said that. That used to pressure me so much, but now I'm realizing I'm like, there is actually there's power in like it's not that he doesn't care about what I have to say, but there is a power in um men having other men speaking into their lives. And I think that's a huge point. Um, and and women for women, yeah. It's a huge point to finding hope, healing, and freedom and f and being able to change is when like when men are calling it out on each other and they're working together um to change. And I think that has been such an integral part in our marriage. Yeah. And that's something that like Aaron didn't have for a really long time, his guys around him to like strengthen and lift him up. So that's been huge. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's amazing. I would agree with that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that's um like what you're saying really resonated too because it's it's in the same way for women, it's like I can tell my wife that she looks beautiful, but it it it does mean something different when one of her friends says it. Yeah, she's not looking to dress up for other people or anything, but when she has peers who are speaking in her life or building her up, that makes a whole world of difference to her. And I feel like that's everybody, and that's kind of the way we're designed to be within the context of community. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I also like the the way that this has gone too. I actually lost my train of thought. I was I th I had it, and then you were went there and I was like, oh, that's really good. Um, but I I think Jeff, you were talking about this earlier. You were talking about uh like just putting band-aids on behaviors and within the context of who we are individually when we're working on ourselves, uh, or in the context of like friends or marriage. Uh I think where we're at, where we're starting to get it as a culture within the church, and I think outside of the church is behavior modification just doesn't cut it. Like you can't just put on a different set of clothes or change the way you walk, or like it's it's it has to go deeper. Yeah. It has to go deeper for yourself, it has to go deeper in your relationships, whether no matter what the issue is, whether it's as small as like communicating about who takes out the garbage to to a lot of the heavier stuff. And that's really what makes the difference with within strong marriages is those uh who are willing to go deeper, who are willing to to to go past the behavior modification and actually get to what's actually wrong and what's actually gonna provoke change. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you've got to heal the initial. Wound absolutely like you can't just treat the symptom and you can't throw a band-aid on it. Um, I can't remember who it is, but there's like this famous either president or colonel in history, and it talks about like he was shot in war. And had they treated the initial wound, he would have survived, but he died from infection later. Yeah, like it wasn't the shot that killed him, yeah, right? It was not treating the shot, like not going deep, not resolving that wound, where then infection set in, and it was the infection that took him out, not the original wound. Yeah, right, and that applies to every aspect of our life. 100%, right? Like it's such a sobering thought that like if I don't take some of my trauma, some of the issues that I'm dealing with, some of those things, and I let it just sit there, like I'm not dealing with an original wound anymore. Now I'm dealing with a lot of afterthought, and like to speak to it in like that physical sense. Hey, you got shot in the thigh, we could have removed the bullet, but now your leg's gone. Yeah, and now you've got to live with that consequence. Yeah. Where like you could have just dealt with it then. Yeah, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's why it's so important to have like community around you. Yeah. Like even in the piece where I was saying people don't know where to start or where to go. Like, if you're telling your testimony and you're like vulnerable with like, hey, this is where I was at, this is my trauma, God brought me through it, this is how I did it. Then people are actually able to grasp onto that and move forward. So I think the more that we tell are telling our stories and being open and honest and vulnerable, I think people will receive uh the healing.
SPEAKER_04It creates hope. Absolutely. Right? Like Revelation says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Yeah. So like when you share your story of overcoming, there's a piece of me that sparks. It's like, hey, maybe. Right? And I need to take that, hey, maybe and then go talk to you. Yeah. How did that healing happen? Yeah. But it's that sharing that testimony, that being vulnerable, that like, hey, this is how we healed that sparks hope in other people.
SPEAKER_01The reality is we are as sick as our secrets, but we can be as healthy as we are honest. And spiritual power can flow in almost any place except where hiding is occurring. The invitation of Jesus is to come and follow, to come and see, to come and be with, to bring things into the light.
SPEAKER_05This is a really short clip, but I and I don't really have a question more than like the the thing that stuck out to me the most uh was when John said we can be as healthy as we are honest. And I think uh I mean they're the pure desire guys, so that's within the context of sexual uh sexual purity, but I think that's a truth that resonates through every aspect, even as we're talking about marriages earlier, like the things that we face, the things that we go through, um what we decide to share with uh people or significant others, what we don't, um we can be as healthy as we are honest. What do you guys think about that?
SPEAKER_03I love that. I think that's so obviously that's so true. Um, I love that he said that because I think people they think that their honesty disqualifies them in a lot of um contexts and a lot of areas. And for some people, yes, if when they share their story or they're honest, it will. Um, but for a lot of people, it'll be like we were talking about before, it'll be that spark that says, like, oh my goodness, like I've dealt with that I've like for so long. Um and now I can like have someone to talk to, right? Or I know like I'm not alone. Like I think that's the biggest way that Satan tries to or that he his biggest tack oh my gosh. That is the biggest way that Satan gets us is when he makes us feel all alone in our struggles, in our isolation. Um and you you just feel like I'm the only one in the world that must be dealing with this, right? So I think that there's huge wisdom in who you're being honest with. Um and like I said, not everyone it will capture that and be okay with that honesty, and that's okay. Um there is as he was saying, like healing needs to come out, and the only way to do that is when you are honest and open about what you're struggling with and dealing with.
SPEAKER_05I think too, sorry, I just I just had a thought. I I think when it comes to like health, um, is that that it is a process to get healthy and it can cost you something, like you were saying before, maybe not necessarily like the respect around you, but like from relationships that you have with people. But uh we we move into that uh into that area where Jeff was talking about where it's like if you're not actually treating the wound, like if you're not actually willing to be honest, like you'll never be healthy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think it's like what Malachi was saying earlier about like, hey, somebody finally talked to somebody about something and you saw the weight just lift.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like I remember I remember like an exact moment, and this literally just came to me. Um but it was like as a teenager with my first girlfriend, like fell into the trap of having sex before marriage, but I was still serving in church, and it was such a hidden thing, and I was so afraid to tell anyone. And I was outed kind of thing. Like we broke up and she phoned one of my mentors and like spilled all the beans and stuff, and I remember debating that morning, even going to church. Yeah, but I remember walking in and the people that she told came up to me and just loved on me. Wow, and like there was such a weight that was just instantly lifted because I wasn't isolated anymore. Yeah, I wasn't living in like shame or sin. Like I think of Psalm 32, it talks about like being forgiven of our sins and iniquities, but David talks about that like when I was in my sin, it's like my bones were wasting away. Yeah, yeah, right? Like there is that feeling that when we get stuck inside shame and sin, that we like inside we feel like we're wasting away, but like God would never say say shame on you, it's always shame off of you, yeah, yeah. Like come here, yeah, kind of thing. Like Adam and Eve, they instantly hid because they were scared. Yeah, but like that wasn't God's approach towards them, yeah, or anything like that. And I just think of all of this these things, like we're as sick as our secrets, but we're as healthy as we are, honest. And like the Bible tells us, hey, like confess your sins, one another, because he's faithful and just to forgive you. And that's actually how we approach healing is first by confession. It's how we enter into salvation, is first by confession. Yeah, like it doesn't just magically happen.
SPEAKER_06Honest with God.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's being honest with my state and saying, hey, like here's the mess, God. Right, like I can't do anything with it. And hey, there might be some natural consequences that that come along with that mess, but there's freedom on the other side of those consequences. There's freedom on the other side of that confession. And I always think about like the fact this whole series hit me just like as a dad and like other things, but I was thinking about how like sin creates fragmentation, right? Like the moment we start hiding things, now I've got to give the version of the story to Malachi that I'm fine. Yeah, and like I've got to remember what that lie was in my head, and then I spin it to another person and all these things, and eventually that that hiddenness, that sin starts creating fragmentation all through my life, which is then exhausting, which then just perpetuates that cycle. Yeah, because now I'm isolated, I'm I'm trying to keep up with all my lies, I'm trying to keep up with my shame and all these things. And I just become exhausted of trying to keep up. Yeah, so then I slip back into whatever it is, whatever your like drug of choice is, whether it it's porn, doom scrolling, food, alcohol, substance, whatever that is, put whatever like insert whatever word you are there, but the moment we're exhausted, we default to that, yeah, and sin creates the fragmentation, which creates the exhaustion. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's so good. So true.
SPEAKER_06I was just thinking about like the idea of um honesty and health, and I think like a very practical like I always get pictures and practical, but I think about the gym. It's like you go to lift the weight and you're gonna be very honest with yourself in that moment because it's like if you if you lie, if you lie to your friend, yeah, I can lift 225 pounds, and they're like, let's see it. And it's like, okay, well, now I'm gonna get exposed. And I think it's like the same thing. You have to be honest, like and you know, me and me and your husband have been uh going to the gym and trying to keep each other accountable, which again, like that's another great, that's another great way um to help you to go to the gym is to go with somebody. Um, but you keep each other honest, and that's and that's and that's a healthy, yeah, that's a healthy outlet, and not just the the practicality of the gym, um, because you will be exposed for like your your honesty. Like you're like you like, okay, I can't lift that. I can't lift that, I can't do this. Okay, well, I want to work up to this. And then um, but it's the same kind of picture as like in life where you're walking with people, and that that scripture comes to mind um is that God is faithful uh to forgive your sin and you're you're forgiven when you confess to God. Um, and I think it talks about how when we confess our sins to others, we're actually healed. It's like it's like there's there's two parts to it, and I think that we often try to skip part two because it sucks. Like it's scary, right? Because like, yeah, I I reconcile that God will accept me because you know, he's not like physically, I can't physically see him. And but like, you know, I know that he like from scripture, I know that he loves me. I know that he like he he takes my mess, he forgives me, he makes me new, he makes me clean. And I can and and I think people can kind of get on that train, but I think it's the moment that it's like confession to other people is kind of a scary thing. And I think that that that's where the Bible tells us we're actually find healing. And that's a really, really important thing for people. And I think I think so often again, that's where the shame wants to be held on people. And it's like you can be forgiven, but not healed, right? Like you could be walking around like forgiven, but with a broken leg. And um, and it's kind of like that idea of the wound, it just over time it just feels like it. And that's why people I thought that's why people fall back and they can be born-again Christians and they'll constantly just fall back in that same habit because they they can't find a way to get healing from it. Yeah. And it's until you actually find someone, and and you said something very important, like who do you tell um is very important because if you just go, you know, you might even think your best friend is the person to talk to, but then maybe for them, they they're all of a sudden like they're taking that information, they're gossiping about you. And now it's more of a wound. Now it's like, now I don't trust people. I'm not gonna tell anybody, and I don't trust people. Um, and so you have to be really careful with who you tell about those things because it has to be a very, especially like the severity of those things um or those things that you're dealing with, like as those are higher in severity, you have to make sure that you tell the right people. Um and because they have to be able to protect that information first and foremost, and you have to be able to protect that person um with that trust. And so I think that's a really, really important part of full healing is yeah, I I need to confess to God. Like, like that's where that honesty, like I, you know, God sees everything already, like he understands everything and every thought that I've ever had, and like how more honest can you get with God? Like he knows everything, and all he wants is you to do is just like say, Yeah, I need you, and I'm a sinner, and I have to come to that place. But then the second part is you'll only find healing when you actually have people that you can walk with. Yeah. Or even that, even that word struggle, like you're struggling with people. Um, and I think that's the word struggle gets a bad rep because it's like, well, I'm struggling with well, it's actually good because you're actually, you're not just laying in it, right? Like working as long as you're struggling, like you're you're you're fighting against it. It's when we lay down and we just give up and we say, This is me, that's when the battle's over and you've lost. Yeah. And as as long as you're struggling, it's actually a good thing. And I think you're kind of that's what we as Christians do. We struggle together because we're not none of us are perfect. None of us are a hundred percent. Um, like it's it talks about how we are, you know, when we are, when we are saved, we're holy, we're made holy, but it but talks about that idea of sanctification, we're being made holy. And so we're all kind of like limping down the road as we get better and better and better, yeah, but we're all kind of fighting our our stuff that we're we're dealing with, but it's only together that we'll actually, I think, find healing in those things. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think on a on a different note, the flip side, because I like as you uh guys were talking about, you know, the weight that gets lifted, right? Um in our like experience, like Aaron had a huge weight lifted, but I had a huge weight dropped on me. So I think it's also important to like, you know, obviously like that that freedom and that what that weight lifting is so such an important part, but then realizing like like fallout, like we were talking about, like some some consequences are high, um, some will affect so many people. Um and I think like obviously for Aaron, he just reached a point where he couldn't uh lie anymore. And he had to be honest. And it was actually, I think it was a couple years ago we talked about like he was like, I obviously wanted to do that for you, but I needed to also do that for myself. And just realizing sometimes that you know you could have victory and a huge weight taken off, and then other people are just really crushed by by that. Yeah, and I think that there's there's healing that can occur in all of areas, um, right? Because I I don't know why I said that. I think I think it's really important to acknowledge that other side. Um the other side of that.
SPEAKER_06And I think that shows the importance again, coming back to the second clip where he's talking about how like and we were talking about how like you set up everything in the room and your color correcting and making sure like the more set up you are the earlier on in life, the better. Because it's again, there's less fallout. Yeah. Um, and later, the later in life you are and dealing with those things, there's just gonna be fallout. Yeah, like there's just things that you can't control, like like the weight that gets lifted off you is now gonna be put on whoever was in that vicinity of you. And that's the that's the scary part, like that's the tough part, but that's the only way, yeah. That's the only way you'll find healing.
SPEAKER_04I think that's where the community and the people around you are so important too.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like, yeah, who are you telling? Okay, cool. Can this person handle this? But can they also handle the other side? Yeah, right? Like because there is a natural consequence sometimes when we confess, yeah, right. Like in your case, like you said, there was a weight put on you. Okay, who are the people around us that we have that can we can lean on in this season that we can walk through this? Yeah, right. Like having community is so important.
SPEAKER_03For me, I was like, I have to have find the person who's been through the exact same thing as me, who's and I'm like, that was not available to me. And I think having that that mind aspect wasn't correct, and it actually um hindered my healing for a long time because I was like, I have to find the person who has gone through who knows exactly what I've gone through. And I think that's also that was a lie. Um, but I just didn't know what else to do. But I think that's a really important note is that when you are being honest with someone or when you are dealing with something and finding that community, like they don't have to be people who they can just be people that are praying for you. Yeah, they don't have to have experience the same experience. Yeah, absolutely. Like it doesn't have to be a big thing, like a counselor or something. You don't have to have all the answers either.
SPEAKER_04Like totally sometimes you don't want the person that's going through it, yeah, the same thing. Because then like you end up just jumping into the pit together, yeah, rather than rising above.
SPEAKER_03I was looking for someone who'd gone through.
SPEAKER_04I know, but like even then, like for me, like I look for men that I want to be like, and that's who I want to hang out with, right? Like, I'm like, hey, who around me is an amazing father? Who around me is an amazing husband? Yeah, who around me is an amazing leader, right? Like I I need peers, but I also need those people that I can go to that are where I want to be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? Because they have the roadmap on how to get there. I think of like there's an analogy of like the four rooms, right? So you live in one room and you can't see into the fourth room because it's across from like picture the square and there's walls in between it. I can't see into this fourth room. So then I need people in my community on either side that can look into that room and say, Hey guys, I see this, right? Like either, hey, this is healthier going this way, or hey, I see this in your life and I've been there, or I can recognize where this is leading.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that community and that accountability piece is so important. But we need to surround ourselves with like people we're doing life with and that we're walking life through, but we also need to surround ourselves with mentors that we want to look up to that we want to become. Totally. Right. Because if we're just around people that we're all going through the exact same thing, we're in a big vacuum. Sure, we might get there, but we also might become susceptible to just jumping into the pit together and complaining about where we're at.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, it's that saying too that um that old saying that misery loves company. Um, so I think like as you're saying, if you're not careful with um like who you're surrounding yourself with, like if you're you you're just looking for somebody who has experienced the same thing as you, but not somebody who's overcome that thing, yeah, yeah, then you're not really gonna find the healing that you're looking for. You're just gonna find somebody who you can sh who you commiserate your pain with, which yeah.
SPEAKER_04Did that person get better or did they get better going through it?
SPEAKER_05Which can feel like a like a band-aid, it's a band-aid thing where it kind of feels like it's doing something because you're venting and somebody understands you, but you're not moving from that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I've decided to become like what I didn't feel like I could find. That's really cool. And so that's what's really been helping me even receive more healing because when you actually are helping people through, you heal more. Yeah. And I think that's a really cool piece of the like the community puzzle and just helping people through their traumas and helping them to be honest.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Well, yeah, that was a great conversation. So thank you guys so much. Thank you, Dania, for coming on the podcast. Thank you, Jeff, for coming back. Um, we just want to say thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode. Um, we also do realize again, like if you if you want to go and watch the the there's a two clips from the same sermon, um, you can go back to our live stream and follow those uh and watch those full uh sermons on what we were kind of talking about today. Uh the really, really great um people, great organization, pure desire uh as well. You can find you can find the resources online as well. Um, and uh we also have some of the resources at our church. And so I know we probably talked a lot about like a lot of things within that area. Um and you know, maybe something for you as a listener, just like maybe that was something that just kind of hit you. And maybe you need to reach out. We want to encourage you to reach out to us. You can either just DM us or um I think you can just message our uh like the YouTube or Instagram, wherever you can get a hold of us. Um, and we'd love to get you connected if you need to be a part of one of those groups that we talked about as well. Because again, we know that that needs to start with that confession with each other and and finding that safe place. And so uh yeah, we thank you for joining us and we hope that uh we'll see you next time on the best of these four.
