43. How to find courage in the face of adversity: A Catholic doctor speaks about how he fought and won against pro-abortionists trying to cancel him

Welcome back to Part II of the conversation with Dr. Dermot Kearney, former President of the Catholic Medical Association in the United Kingdom.

Dr. Kearney discusses Abortion Pill Reversal (APR), a medical treatment deemed controversial by pro-abortion groups, that can help women who change their minds after taking the first abortion pill mifepristone. His work providing this treatment in the UK has faced significant opposition despite evidence of its effectiveness and safety, highlighting tensions between "reproductive choice" advocacy and medical ethics.

• Abortion Pill Reversal has helped thousands of women continue pregnancies after taking mifepristone, according to some studies and Heartbeat International
• When administered promptly, progesterone treatment has approximately 55% success rate in continuing pregnancies
• Opposition evolved from claiming APR was "junk science" to falsely stating women don't change their minds
• Critics attempted to portray the treatment as dangerous despite progesterone's established safety record for pregnancy
• Science supports abortion pill reversal with animal studies showing 80% success when given within 24 hours
• No increased risk of birth defects for babies born after successful reversal treatment
• Dr. Kearney faces professional challenges but continues based on scientific evidence and women's need for this service
• Women who contact Dr. Kearney receive factual information without judgment - 35% choose not to proceed with reversal
• Medical ethics requires respecting all human life and supporting informed patient choices

Dr. Dermot Kearney is on social media: https://www.x.com/@dermotkearney3

Sources mentioned:

https://abortionpillreversal.com

https://heartbeatinternational.com

https://aaplog.com

American Association of Pro-life Obestetricians and Gynecologists

Chapters

• 0:00 Why Dr. Kearney Continues His Work
• 3:35 Abortion Procedures and Ethical Concerns
• 6:10 Opposition to Abortion Pill Reversal
• 12:10 Scientific Evidence and Safety
• 19:25 Conscience, Faith, and Medical Ethics
• 26:30 Facing Opposition with Conviction
• 49:48 The True Meaning of Choice
• 57:50 Progesterone's Safety and Efficacy
• 1:00:40 Podcast Closing

Transcript

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 0:05

Yeah, you asked me a little bit earlier about how do I keep going. Well, I keep going because women need it. I keep going with the abortion pill reversal because women there's a demand for it. So if there wasn't, if women didn't want it or didn't need it, I wouldn't stop. I don't go out looking for clients. I'm trying to create awareness of it so it at least it's an option that mothers know is there. If they do change their mind after they're taken, I'm very careful that I give them very truthful, very honest, based on personal experience and on what I've read from other sources. I give them all of the up-to-date information that they would need and 30% of them decide. 35% decide not to go ahead and the other what 65% do at least they started. Some of them don't continue, some of them change their minds after a while. But it keeps me going because there's a demand for it.

Sheila Nonato: 0:57

The battleground over abortion begins here. A woman stands outside a pharmacy during the Lenten 40 Days for Life prayer vigil. Most abortions now take place inside a woman's home through chemical abortion. On June 1st the New York Times published a glowing article about French scientist Etienne-Emile Beaulieu, the inventor or the father of the abortion pill, who died at the age of 98 on June 1st.

Sheila Nonato: 1:26

This week we continue the conversation with UK doctor Dermot Kearney about abortion pill reversal, a controversial procedure to doctors in favour of abortion and reproductive choice. The heart of the matter, says Dr Kearney, is choice. Ironically, after taking the first of two abortion pills, do women have the choice to change their minds? And do women have the right to access medical care, if they do, to help them to try to save their pregnancy and their babies? Let's hear the conversation and please keep in mind that this is not medical advice. This is a conversation with Dr Kearney and the obstacles he has faced as a medical doctor and as a Christian, and what keeps him going, even in the face of threats against his ability to practice as a doctor and criticisms of his pro-life beliefs.

Sheila Nonato: 2:24

Let's begin with a prayer In nomine Patris, et Filli et Spiritus Sancti. Amen. Ave Maria, gratia plena. Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostre. Amen, Iesus. Thank you and God bless.

Sheila Nonato: 3:00

Hello and Welcome to the Veil and Armour Podcast. This is your host, Sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home mom and a freelance Catholic journalist, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady. I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate and enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints of raising the next generation of leaders and saints.

Co-Host: 3:26

Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens in mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 3:32

So are you telling me that after eight months, abortions have happened in the UK?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 3:38

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they have almost always some congenital eugenics reasons.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 3:46

So there's some imperfection in the child.

Sheila Nonato: 3:50

I'm so sorry to ask this, but what do they do with the baby afterwards?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 3:54

Well, they would kill the baby by feticide Almost always. I don't think they would dismember the baby at that stage. They do obviously dismember the child when they're doing surgical abortions in the second trimester, but they would usually not do a dismemberment. So they would kill the child, obviously with the mother's permission. So the mother well, you would hope it's the mother's permission, even if the mother may have been persuaded or pressurized, and then they would deliver the child.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 4:21

So induced delivery.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 4:24

And then it's up to the mother whether she wants to hold the child. Okay, so yeah, so they would give the option. So they would, they would think that this is humane and they would give the mother the option, because in some cases the child might be born alive. So the fetucide may not have worked, and there have been many cases around the world where children have been born alive because of failed abortion attempts and usually because the fetus side hasn't worked the attempted fetus side and so they would give the option of if the mother wants to hold a child, or the mother wants to arrange a burial or a cremation, or if they want the body disposed of in some other way, and so they.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 4:56

Well, we give those options wow, um, I yeah it's, I don't it's incomprehensible, but that's the mindset of people that they think they're offering something good to these mothers, Having pressurized them in the first place. They think that you'd be better off because this would have been a too big a burden for you in life. How do they know? They don't know what people are capable of. There are many children with down syndrome and edward syndrome and patow syndrome who live very, very happy lives and bring great joy to their parents and to their extended families are you okay for a couple more questions, or do you have to go of?

Sheila Nonato: 5:37

course, yeah yeah yeah, okay yeah, so I just had also a question about the Daily Mail article of 2021. They were quoting Marie Stopes International, now MSI Reproductive Choices for a cure not backed by evidence failed to present a balanced picture of its benefits and imposed your anti-abortion beliefs on her. Was there a problem that you are Catholic, you were showing your beliefs, your pro-life beliefs, or is it because there was a lack of evidence? Can you tell me about a treatment in order to be accepted? How many peer-reviewed studies? Reviewed studies? What's the process? And also, yeah, what was their issue, main issue with you?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 6:31

Yeah, the main issue with me was that they didn't like what I was doing Initially. There was basically three main lies. There's a lot of opposition to abortion pill reversal in the UK, but primarily in the United United States, and I've looked at some of the early statements that were made, so back in the early days. So the abortion pill reversal service has been in operation in the US since 2012 and then around 2015, 2016, opposition started to be voiced against it and the initial opposition was that it's junk science, there's no basis to it, it doesn't work. So that was the initial opposition was that it's junk science, there's no basis to it, it doesn't, it doesn't work. So that was the initial lie that they had. Then they tried to say well, even if it works, women don't need this, women don't change their mind.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 7:17

And there's a very telling interview. It's on Huffington Post, which Huffington Post isn't exactly the sort. It's not a pro-life publication or whatever you want media service. But the most outspoken person against APR in the US was a guy called Daniel Grossman, who's an obstetrician and an abortionist in California, and he was asked so, dr Grossman, why are you opposed to this so-called abortion pill reversal? Is it the treatment? He said no, no, no, no, no. It's not the treatment, it's the rhetoric. The rhetoric that women change their mind. We know that women don't change their mind and that is very telling because we know that women do change their mind. Women change their mind about lots of things all the time and they certainly change in abortion. But if you accept and I know this to be true in the UK and presumably it's the same in North America if women change their mind and if it's acknowledged that women change their mind, then there's a very uncomfortable question well, why do they change their mind? We know the answer to that. At least I know the answer to that it's because they're not given any other option. They're not given any other information. It's not explained to them what abortion is until they find out for some how, by themselves. So they get absolutely no counselling. They're meant to get counselling. If you call yourself pro-choice, you want to make sure that the woman is informed of all of the possible choices that she might want to make. So deciding to reverse her abortion after taking the first pill is a choice, but that's one that they're not prepared to accept or acknowledge. So that was the first thing that they don't change their mind. And then they said well, it's junk science, it doesn't work. They wouldn't accept that.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 8:53

There is plenty of evidence and year by year the evidence has been accumulating Now. Initially there was a theory. So the very first case that were done were done in 2005, 2006,. Two different parts of the country, one in California or New Mexico, california, and the other in North Carolina.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 9:13

Two doctors who didn't know each other, but they were asked on two separate occasions oh, I've got a patient, a client, who's taken first abortion pill. She wants to save the baby. Is there anything you can do to help her? And then, given their knowledge and putting and putting two and two together. Well, we know this is what mifepristone does it blocks progesterone. And both of them had experience in using progesterone in infertility management, helping mothers to preserve pregnancy. That well, if I gave progesterone, maybe, just maybe, it might overcome the effect of the mifepristone. So there's a definite scientific basis and logic for that. And they both, in both cases they gave progesterone, actually intramuscularly, and certainly in at least in one case, maybe in both, and it worked. The baby survived. And that might have been coincidence. Maybe the baby was going, maybe it was one of those 20, that was going to survive anyway. But then they did a few more cases and they worked and they found that this was actually working, more often than not working, and when it given promptly. So that's led to the service being set up in 2012.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 10:07

Now I would have liked and it's too late now, unfortunately, at this stage I would have liked if they had done what they call a randomized control trial, because we didn't really know for certain if the treatment worked. If they had taken two groups and given one group placebo and one progesterone even though it was you said, maybe it was a little bit on. It would have been a little bit unethical if we knew that a progesterone was like to be worked, to give someone placebo in that situation. But I think it would have been reasonable and ethical to do one in 2012. Nowadays it wouldn't, because we now know that it works.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 10:39

More than 5,500 babies have been born in 12 years I almost say it'll be 6,000 by the end of the year mostly in the U. S., but a good few in Canada, a good few here in the United Kingdom, even though we've only been doing it for two or three years in total. But we know that it works at least 55% of the time. When it's given promptly in the correct dose and when the mother continues to take the treatment, it doesn't stop it. So we know they're worse. So that's the main argument.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 11:09

Now, in more recent times and this was never mentioned early on, but when they realized that, okay, we're losing the argument here women obviously do change their mind, because we've got 5,500 babies to prove it and you can take this probably another 3,000 or 4,000 where the treatment didn't work. So we've got almost 10,000 cases where women did change their mind in the course of 12 years. That's a lot of mothers change their mind and probably many, many more would change their mind if they knew about the service but just have never heard of it. And most of the girls who come to me said I didn't realize this until a friend told me or until I looked up the internet. So more realized that then. So we know that women change their mind.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 11:49

Secondly, we know that that it does work, that it's. There's animal studies that show that it works. So the initially there was the theory. Then there was a number of animal studies, done mainly in Japan and in more recently in the United States, showing that it's very successful, given the equivalent doses of mifepristone and the equivalent doses of progesterone, either simultaneously. With the mifepristone, there's a 100% success rate in animal studies if it's given at the same time. If it's given the equivalent of 12 to 24 hours later, there's an 80% success rate in animals.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 12:23

So we know that it works in animal studies to preserve the pregnancies. And then there's more and more accumulating evidence. There's very good observational studies. So case reports that have come out over the years in various places and just putting them all together, looking at the failure rate, the success rate, the complication rate which is the serious complication rate is zero. That's probably the most important information I give to the mothers when they contact me that if your baby survives, there is no increased risk of any congenital problems. That's very important.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 12:55

Now that stopped me from offering the service for several years. So I first heard about it in 2014, and I didn't start the service until 2020, because I wanted to make sure that, first of all, that it was effective, that it was actually working. So year by year, I could see more and more success rates. But I also was I needed to be sure that there wasn't going to be some congenital problem for the babies. So I was thinking of things like thalidomide in the 60s, where mothers taken for morning sickness and pregnancy and ended up with congenital defects in the babies. And we know some drugs can cause congenital defects.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 13:28

So the question was if a baby is exposed to mifepristone in early pregnancy but manages somehow to survive, either with progesterone or just naturally. Will there be any long-term effects? And the answer is no, there isn't, and we know that. Even the abortion providers will admit that the way they have to. Um, but we know that there isn't any increased risk. There is a small risk of congenital congenital deformities or congenital problems in all pregnancies and it's exactly the same in the general population as it is with those who've been exposed to different places. So we reassure mothers about that, and that was the one thing that basically stopped me from providing the service for several years until I knew for certain that there wasn't that increased risk to baby. So the river pristone will either kill the baby within the first two or three weeks or won't have any long-term effects. It will have immediate fatal effect or no no effect whatsoever. Um, and progesterone can protect the baby against that fatal effect. Where were we? I think I was in the middle of responding to one of your questions.

Sheila Nonato: 14:33

Yeah, I'm just curious because they were also talking about lack of evidence.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 14:37

Oh yeah, so they're talking about the danger, yeah, the danger. So in 2020, they published. The second most outspoken person is a guy called Mitchell Crine and he's in Sacramento, in Northern California, and he decided he had been an outspoken critic of APR and he was the one who coined the term junk science, junk science. But eventually he decided, well, I can't keep calling it junk science unless I can prove it. So he decided he was going to set up a trial. I can't keep calling it junk science unless I can prove it. So he decided he was going to set up a trial. So he first of all, the design of the trial is highly suspicious because if you're comparing two treatments and that's basically what he was doing he was comparing progesterone to placebo in women who had taken mifepretzol. But if you're comparing two treatments, you're going to need a lot of patience because you've got to make sure that there's proper uh, that it's a controlled trial. So he called it a randomized controlled trial. It's definitely not a controlled trial. It's controlled means you take into account all the possible variables that could influence the outcome of the trial. So you've got to have the mothers the same age. You've got to have them the same weight, the same bmi, the same height or similar height. You've got to have the same number of diabetics, the same number of hypertensives, the same number of women with previous miscarriages, same number of mothers with previous abortions. So previous obstetric history, previous medical history and other medications that might influence the outcome. So he made absolutely no attempt to control the trial in that sense. We just took random women.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 16:03

He persuaded. He said he only needed 40. He would have 20 in each group. Now there is no study in history where you compare two treatment groups with just 40 patients. You're going to need several hundred to have any chance of showing any difference.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 16:16

So his trial was basically designed to show failure. It was designed to show that this treatment wouldn't work because he went in with a biased opinion, allegedly as an investigator, to see or to prove that the treatment doesn't work. Now a good investigator has a has a question does this treatment work? I wonder, yes or no? Let's try a trial, let's design a properly controlled trial. And it was.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 16:38

He went in with a biased attitude, determined to show that this didn't work. So we had to have small numbers to show that, because it was very unlikely that there was going to be any difference between them if there was only going to be 20 at each group. So he persuaded or he had he hoped to persuade 40 women who were due to have surgical abortions anyway, just for them to delay their surgical procedure by 15 days to allow them to try this junk science treatment. They would all get mifepristone on day one and on day two. 24 hours later, they would all get either placebo or progesterone and the patient wouldn't know and the doctor wouldn't know which it was. It was a double-blind randomized trial. It wasn't a randomized controlled trial, it was a randomized trial. So it turned out.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 17:21

The trial was stopped after 12 ladies had been recruited. Six were in each group, six in the progesterone group, six in the placebo group. Two had voluntarily left the trial within a matter of days, so they'd stopped because they just didn't want to be part of anyone. That's always going to be with any trial a dropout rate of at least 10 percent, and with a trial with something controversial like abortion, you're going to have at least at least 10%, probably more. So his 40 was going to be quickly down to 35 or 34 or less very quickly if they had let it continue. But as it was, two dropped out within days. So they had five in each group.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 17:58

They stopped it after those ten after and those ten had gone through two weeks, because three of the mothers presented to the ER department with bleeding. Two of them had serious bleeding, One of them needed a blood transfusion, one of them needed an urgent surgical abortion and in those two cases the mothers had received placebo. So they hadn't received progesterone. So they're taking mifepristone, which obviously caused the bleeding. Bleeding. Placebo did nothing to stop it and two of them ended up going to the department and needing an intervention. That's two out of five. It seems a lot, but if they'd gone with their 20 as planned, there may have been no further cases. So there's no way of knowing. But these just coincidentally two out of five, or was this going to be the pattern in the progesterone group?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 18:44

One woman had bleeding but she attended the ER department. They checked her out. Her blood count was stable, it hadn't dropped, she hadn't lost a lot of blood, her blood pressure was stable, she didn't need any blood transfusion, she didn't need any emergency evacuation or intervention and she was discharged on the same day. So that they and they decided to stop it on the base, on the pretense, I would say again, that mothers were bleeding because of this or women were bleeding because of this dangerous treatment. But it was the mifepristone that caused the bleeding, not the progesterone, and that was showing the fact that two of the mothers who had the serious bleeding had received placebo, hadn't received progesterone, and one who had less serious bleeding. So you could argue that, if they wanted to be very strict about it, even though the numbers are very small, that progesterone reduces your risk of serious bleeding compared to placebo. So that's what the trial should be showing.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 19:37

The other, even more important aspect, and this is I have no doubt whatsoever that this is the reason the trial was stopped. So in their early analysis, they found that of the five women in the progesterone group, they found that of the five women in the progesterone group, four were still pregnant, with a healthy pregnancy, after 15 days, so 80% success rate. One had miscarried, which is what you would expect. So, whereas in the placebo group, two out of five were still pregnant, so 40%, which is surprising that there would be so many after 15 days. But that confirmed what we say all along is that the giving progesterone doubles the likely survival rate of the baby.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 20:15

Now the investigators. This did not go unnoticed by them, so in their early stage analysis they would have realized hang on a second. We're trying to show that this treatment doesn't work, and yet in our early stage analysis we're actually showing the opposite. We're showing that progesterone is more effective in saving lives. Not only that, it's also safer it's causing less bleeding than the women who don't get progesterone. We're going to have to stop this trial.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 20:37

So I've no doubt the reason the trial was stopped was that because progesterone was already shown to be more effective in saving life and more effective in preventing serious hemorrhage compared to placebo, and that was not supposed to happen. So they had to find a reason. So they made up this story that all the three women have had serious bleeds. So we can't continue this trial. It's not. It would be unethical to do so.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 21:00

So that's how this thing about uh, progesterone being a danger to women. There's absolutely no evidence anywhere. Progesterone is a danger as if if the well, progesterone has been used in pregnancy for more than 50 years. It's used mainly to support pregnancy in women who are at risk of miscarriage. And this is exactly what we're doing in abortion reversal we're providing progesterone to women who are at risk of miscarriage specifically because their progesterone has been attacked. Their endogenous natural progesterone has been attacked by an outside force and we're just providing the natural progesterone has been attacked by an outside force and we're just providing the natural progesterone to try and overcome that outside attack. So that's where the danger sort of thing.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 21:37

The other thing is that we were accused of using an unlicensed, and that's true. Progesterone is not unlicensed. It's licensed for use in pregnancy. It's licensed for use in miscarriage, preventive miscarriage, lots of things in obstetrics. It's not licensed for abortion, pill reversal but no, no drug is licensed for that. It's a novel, it's a relatively new treatment and it takes years and years before drugs get their license for that specific thing.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 22:02

But there are many, many drugs who are, which are used in an off-license or off-label manner, particularly in pediatrics and children's medicine. There's lots of drugs used in that way and this was pointed. This was a letter that was pointed out to me by the Royal College of Obstetricians because even before we started the service, we wrote to the RCOG (Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists) asking them to support the service because we thought this was a great thing for women, for women's health, and they wrote back and said we do not promote the use of unlicensed or off-licensed medications. So we wrote back to them because they may not have realized it, but misoprostol, the second abortion drug, was not licensed for abortion. It's licensed for management of peptic ulcer disease, but it's not licensed for abortion, and yet they were very happy to recommend it and provide it, administer it.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 22:52

And also, I also point out another drug that they highly recommend, called methotrexate, which is used for management of rheumatoid arthritis. It's a very potent anti-inflammatory for chronic and chronic conditions, but they highly recommend it for the medical management of ectopic pregnancy, and yet it's not licensed for that indication. So they were very hypocritical and very inconsistent in their response to us that, oh, we do not support the off-license use of these medications, and yet that's exactly what they do. So when we wrote back to them pointing this lapse to them, we got no response. They didn't reply to that. Because what could they say? Oh, we're very sorry, yes, we will support your service. So their only option was to either support us or just not respond.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 23:41

Nothing else would have been just even more hypocritical.

Sheila Nonato: 23:43

For mothers who are listening to us in Canada or who might know somebody in this situation. Is abortion pill reversal available? How do they access? The service.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 23:53

Yeah, there's opposition to it and I do know one or two of the doctors who provide.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 24:00

I know there are a number of providers. I think most of them are probably linked either directly to some of the pro-life organizations and pregnancy health centers for crisis pregnancies, and some of them, like myself, will be registered with the international abortionpillreversalcom. So I recommend for anyone who's anywhere in the world not only Canada, canada, ireland, england, america, russia, slovakia, so lots of the countries where I know abortion reversal is in operation and if a mother needs help and they want to find a local doctor, the group Heartbeat International, which runs the abortion pill reversal network. They have a register of doctors who are prepared, willing and available to provide the service and the way to contact them is through abortionpillreversalcom. The com is important because if you just put in abortion pill reversal, you get a lot of the anti-APR, anti-reversal sites saying how dangerous it is, like Planned Parenthood and Marie Stopes and BPOS?, the Royal Colleges saying that this is dangerous, it's unlicensed. So you get a lot of there's a lot of misinformation and lies out there. So we're trying our best to provide accurate information.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 25:18

One very good organization that some of your listeners might be aware of and I've had a lot of support from them is the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists, APLOG. They're a wonderful organization that fully supports and endorses abortion pill reversal and they have a very good website that gives a lot of very helpful information to mothers or anybody interested in the topic, and they have many of their members, who are all the vast majority of them are obstetricians working in the U. S., some internationally, but mostly in the U. S. and the vast majority of them are providing the abortion reversal service. So there are at least there's at least 1,500 abortion reversal providers in the United States. There's certainly some in Canada. I don't know exactly how many. We have a small number in the United Kingdom. Ireland has a small number. They're the ones I know of. No-transcript.

Sheila Nonato: 26:38

So you pointed out sort of the double standard on choice, that a woman can choose abortion but she cannot choose to change her mind. So if you can speak to perhaps there's a mother out there or they might know somebody who made this choice. They took the first pill but now they're regretting, or they have second thoughts, but they're thinking about judgment. Are people? Is the doctor going to judge? They have all these thoughts in their mind that might prevent them from seeking this kind of service. What would you say to them?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 27:14

There's absolutely no judgment whatsoever. That was one of the accusations made against us that we were, even though there was no evidence to support it that we must be judging these women because of our Catholic beliefs. Not all the doctors providing the service are Catholics. By the way, it just happens that myself and Dr Riley In fact I know at least one of the others in the UK isn't a Catholic, and he or she is providing the service, and not necessarily from any religious point of view, and neither am I, while I have a Catholic belief. Even if I wasn't a Catholic, I would still be very happy to provide the service. So, certainly no judgment. Um, and as, as I mentioned earlier, on 35 percent of the mothers that I've spoken to, they decide, for whatever reason and I don't, I don't quiz them on it um, not to go ahead with treatment. They're very grateful for the conversation. I speak to them and I leave the door open if you change your mind. If there's anything more, I can do. Some of them I presume the vast majority go ahead with the abortion. I don't judge them in any way. I pray for them. I offer them help if at any stage, as I tell you, in the future, at any stage, next week, next month, next year. If you want to contact me, if you need any help, if I can help in any way, let me know. So any help, if I can help you in any way, let me know. So there's absolutely no judgment.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 28:30

All of the girls I've spoken to, even those that have been a little bit ambivalent or not as enthusiastic as maybe some of the others, I have a deep respect for them all. They're very courageous, first of all to come because it is a courageous decision to know, to recognize that I've done something that I regret doing and I'm going to seek some help to try and save my baby. And it's a courageous thing for them to do and I admire them for that and I certainly respect them. There's no judgment whatsoever. And even those who decide to not go ahead with the treatment and decide for whatever reason I know that it's in many cases that it's not only their decision. They're being forced or coerced by somebody else or by life circumstances that this is not what they would normally choose to do. And I'm sure all of the doctors and healthcare professionals provided this service, I'm sure they would all have a very similar respectful, non-judgmental attitude, very sympathetic but that came across, actually, in the statements that we got from the mothers.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 29:39

I wasn't allowed to have any role in them, but I was allowed to see them afterwards because they were part of the witness that we then sent to the GMC, so I was allowed to read them. I was in tears reading some of the I that we then sent to the GMC. I was allowed to read them and I was in tears reading some of them. I didn't realise the depth of gratitude that the mothers had. It was very touching for me to read what they were saying about me and about the service and the help that they received Very humbling.

Sheila Nonato: 30:13

Amazing. You've been prominent with your Catholic beliefs, your pro-life beliefs. Would it be easier if you just didn't say anything? You know how would it be for a young doctor, catholic in the uk, I guess anywhere in the world um, right now, practicing medicine? Uh, practicing according to their conscience, according to their beliefs. Would it be easier if they just didn't say anything? Right, they just didn't. They hid their Catholic beliefs. Would you consider that if they decided to, oh, we're going to take away your license, you can't be a doctor because you won't shut up about pro-life and abortion pill reversal.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 30:56

Well, Abortion Pill Reversal is only one aspect I would like. There's lots of other areas within medicine. You don't necessarily have to be providing Abortion Pill Reversal (APR) service. Be a good doctor and a good Catholic and a good Catholic doctor, but you do have to at least have a conscience. To be a good Catholic doctor you do have to have a Catholic conscience, a well formed Catholic conscience.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 31:21

Years ago we thought we could escape sort of the dilemmas that if I don't go into a pet, I won't have to do abortions, I won't have to worry about contraception, I won't have to do abortions, I won't have to worry about contraception I won't have to worry about. But more and more medicine has been touched by these life issues that are affecting all of us. So a very big one, certainly in Canada, is the end-of-life care, and there's very few areas of medicine where you can escape being involved in end-of-life care. We all have elderly patients, we all have sick patients, we all have patients that are not going to get better and pressure can be brought to bear to end the life of some of your patients. And then luckily in the U. K. we're protected against that. So euthanasia and assisted suicide is still illegal in the U. K., but that may not remain the case for much longer. There's certainly for many years, there has been a strong lobby trying to change that, just as they did in Canada and some European countries and some states of the US. But we have to be strong. We do have to.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 32:22

While it is easier to just keep your head down and do nothing, is that the right thing to do At the end of the day? Um, while our profession, our jobs as doctors, is important, our, our souls are more important. Our eternal life is more important. And if, if, at the end of the day, we have to come before or come to our judgment and say, well, what did you do when, uh, you know, you had the opportunity to stand up for life and you didn't, or you actually went the other direction, you promoted a culture of death? I wouldn't like to be in that position and unfortunately, there will be some people, there will be some doctors and some nurses and some pharmacists who will have some explaining to do Like we're all sinners, but we shouldn't.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 33:11

There are some areas where the difference between right and wrong is pretty obvious, and you know, when it comes to abortion, when it comes to killing elderly people, killing sick people intentionally. There's a very clear line between what is right and what is wrong and I think all doctors will know that. And our conscience is there to protect us. And some people are prepared to ignore their conscience. Some people are prepared to murder their conscience and not listen to it anymore. That's tragic. That's the worst thing that can happen to any doctor or any person. That can happen to any doctor or any person.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 33:51

As they employ the French philosopher from the early 19th or early 20th century that ultimately there is only one tragedy in life and that is not to become a saint. I'm not sure if they were the exact words, but that's the gist of it. So we all have a calling to become saints, to do what's right, to choose the righteousness and justice and killing people intentionally who don't pose a threat to the lives of others I'm against the death penalty, by the way, as a matter of principle, but I can understand, like self-defense, if you're being attacked and there's an imminent threat to life, you do have a right to use lethal force if it's proportionate to do so. But to intentionally end a human life where there is no imminent or real threat to the lives of others is a very serious, grave injustice and we need to be aware of that and we have an obligation as healthcare professionals to to respect the value of all human lives. And I often I'm on social media quite a lot and one of the posts that I regularly put up I'm hoping mainly to influence doctors or people who have medical backgrounds. I remind them of the uh, the aftermath of the Second World War, and the Nuremberg trials and in particular the doctors' trials in Nuremberg, where doctors who were guilty in Nazi Germany of crimes against humanity were brought to justice. Many of them were hanged. I'm not sure if I would agree with that, but they were brought to justice nevertheless.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 35:28

And as a result of that, the world medical association was formed shortly after 1948, and I think the canadian medical association was one of the prime initiator and initiators of the movement, as was the british medical association, the medical american medical association, to ensure that never, ever again would doctors be involved in crimes against humanity. That was the reason for founding the World Medical Association and they formulated a new Hippocratic Oath. The old Hippocratic Oath is very good, but the language is archaic and there's swearing by Apollo and there are various Greek gods, so they had to update, to put in modern language. And there's a number of oaths or promises that the healthcare that the physician would make, that he would, you know, abide by, you know, respect humanity. But number eight, that the um, the.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 36:20

The eighth oath or promise was um, I will maintain the utmost respect for human life, for all human life, from the, from the time of conception. And that was maintained. That was the promise of doctors in the Affiliated World Medical Association worldwide for many, many years, for many, many decades, from 1948 up until 1983. So long after the Abortion Act of 67 in Britain, long after Roe v Wade, long after the legalization of abortion in france in 74. And so this meant this was maintained up until 1983.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 36:55

At that stage, because of disgruntlement with doctors who were providing abortion and countries where abortion was legalized, that the wording was changed I will maintain the utmost respect for for all human life from its beginning.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 37:08

So they got rid of conception and put it from its beginning, because you could argue well, when does life begin? And then, in 2005, it was then subsequently changed and the current format is I will maintain the utmost respect for human life, full stop. So they've left out the beginning, they've left out conception, but I, you know, we've got to maintain our standards. We've got to maintain the principles by which that organization was founded. And the reason it was founded was to ensure that never, ever again, would doctors be involved in crimes against humanity. And we have, we've betrayed that. So many of us have betrayed those principles and were prepared, for whatever reason whether it's for monetary gain or for popularity or pressure, political pressure or whatever, whether it's for monetary gain or for popularity or pressure, political pressure or whatever we're prepared to end human life, either at the beginning of life or towards the end of life, or at various stages in between, if it's convenient to do so.

Sheila Nonato: 38:05

When you were mentioning about social media. You've gotten into some conversations, confrontations, what sometimes it looks ugly. What. Why do you? Why do you keep doing it? How do you maintain sort of a positive outlook in sort of a hostile environment?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 38:26

Yeah, we get a lot of hostility. I would like to point out I never respond in kind. I never respond with name-calling or insults or swearing. I try to remain very calm. Sometimes it's just a bit difficult and sometimes I just stop. I just leave a conversation if it's just getting to and then I report things for insults or threatening behavior or whatever. But generally I give people a chance, an opportunity, and I'm aware that the conversation is not only between me and one other person, that there are maybe a dozen, maybe several dozen, maybe several hundred other people who will come across the conversation and will.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 39:08

The hope is that, yeah, that I never thought of that, that that makes sense, yeah, that's, that's uncomfortable. I didn't realize that life began that fertilization. I didn't realize that abortion was. I thought it was just ending a pregnancy but I didn't realize it was actually killing a child. I didn't realize that life began, that when it did, I didn't realize that babies could feel pain. So I'm hoping that somewhere along the line, somebody an outsider maybe that I'll never ever come across will see it.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 39:35

And that guy actually he was. Even though he was being insulted and being called all sorts of horrible names by other people, he didn't react. He just kept saying no, this is what I believe. This is the truth. This is what medical ethical practice is all about. He stood firm to the one line. Basically because it's very simple.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 39:56

I put a tweet on tonight. My actual starting was it's very simple. Number one all human lives begin with fertilization. Number two all human lives have equal inherent value. Number three abortion is the intentional destruction of a human life that poses no threat to the lives of others at the embryonic or fetal stage of development.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 40:21

I mix it around, I put in things about music and sport and other things as well, but my main topic is abortion and abortion pill reversal to try and promote the service so at least others will be aware of it, and we have had one or two successful outcomes have come about from mothers mothers and, in one case, a father who then, because he and his partner were looking for something to reverse them or to try and prevent the baby being killed after she'd taken them.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 40:58

If he came across a social media account and sent a message to me, and then I responded, I had to. Of course, I wanted to make sure that I was talking to his partner, that it wasn't just him, so I had to. Of course, I wanted to make sure that I was talking to his partner, that it wasn't just him, so I spoke to her and with her, with his agreement, they had a little baby girl who will be coming up to one year old, actually very soon, and I just wanted to pick up on you had mentioned some of the doctors who do abortion pill reversal are not even Catholic.

Sheila Nonato: 41:33

So basically it's based on science. It's not religion, it's not forcing someone to believe in your God or your beliefs. This is a service, medical procedure or not a procedure, but medical service that you offer freely and not by coercion. Um, and I, I guess I just don't see why it's it wouldn't be allowed um that's as I say, people, it's a threat, it's a.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 42:03

It's a threat to the abortion industry. Uh, because, say, if, if, if it's recognized that women change their mind, then the question is well, why? And the answer is because they get no counselling. Because if women were getting counselling, you can be pretty certain that the numbers of abortions would be vastly, vastly reduced. At the moment in the UK there's about 250,000 abortions a year. At least that's what they claim. Whether actually the women go ahead with the abortion is not known, but they claim 100, 250,000 abortions a year. At least that's what they claim. Whether they're actually the women go ahead with abortion, as is not known, but they claim 100 to 250,000. I have no doubt that at least 40 to 50% would be would not proceed with abortion if they got proper counselling and if they were offered, and probably more, maybe up to 80, 90% would not go ahead with abortion and that would have. That would have very serious implications for the finances of the abortion providers.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 42:52

At the moment it's a very, very lucrative business and they get paid. Almost 98 percent of the money comes from the british taxpayer. A lot of it is by fraud, because there is no evidence that they actually do what they're claiming for, that they're getting paid for. So they don't follow up on these women, so they don't know actually how many actually have the abortion. In the old days, when the abortions were only done surgically, at least when it was horrific, at least they knew how many abortions were being done and they were getting paid for the horrific service that they were providing. But now they're getting paid for something that may or may not be happening, but they're claiming the money and getting it anyway.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 43:30

So I'm I'm hoping to raise the or get a brave politician member of parliament to raise that issue in parliament, because if they the british government is all about trying to save money and if this is, if they're genuinely serious about saving money, then this is one area where they would certainly save a lot of money. If, if serious questions were asked of the abortion providers but they said they don't like that. So if they accept abortion pill reversal, they're going to have to accept that a lot of it will lead to a lot of very uncomfortable and life-changing questions they they will have to address.

Sheila Nonato: 44:12

Have you ever feared for your safety, felt threatened because of what you do?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 44:13

Physically? Physically no.

Sheila Nonato: 44:15

Yes.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 44:15

I don't think so. No, no. If someone shoots me or attacks me or comes out my door, and yeah, no.

Sheila Nonato: 44:24

Follow you?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 44:25

No, should I? Harassment no, no,

Sheila Nonato: 44:26

Follow you?

Sheila Nonato: 44:26

No, Harassment? No, nothing. No, thank God.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 44:30

Harassment online and when we go to, when we do sort of pro-life marches and like. The March for Life is on in London this coming Saturday, which is a great day, so you're always going to get a handful of protesters, which is good because it means that we're having some impact. It's actually much more disappointing when there's just apathy and nobody cares and nobody comes out. I was at the one in Dublin this year and at least this year there was about 50, 60 maybe protesters, which is great, because normally it's only about 10. So it means that the pro-life movement in Ireland is gaining ground. So it means that the pro-life movement in Ireland is gaining ground. So the pro-abortion people realise this, so they now have to come out in stronger force to protest. So that's good. So I welcome protest in that regard. It's a sign that something is happening where people are starting to take notes.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 45:23

But I haven't feared for safety, not myself. There's always a strong at those sort of events. There's always a strong police presence, stewarding presence, so the chance of something ugly happening is pretty safe. The only time I did one in Switzerland, I spoke at the March for Life in Zurich and Antifa who is the fascist? They call themselves anti-fascist, but they're the most extreme fascists on earth because they want to stamp out any resistance to their beliefs. So Antifa, the fascist group, were there in full force. But again the police were on hand, so they were kept about 100 metres away. But they were throwing things and there was smoke bombs. So it was an atmosphere was created, but there was never any worry that any of us were going to be in any danger. I didn't think so. I'm not Swiss, but maybe the Swiss were worried, but I wasn't particularly worried.

Sheila Nonato: 46:15

And you were a speaker at the Toronto March for Life in May, I believe. Is that correct?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 46:20

Toronto and Ottawa. It was lovely. I had a lovely time in Canada, both Ottawa and Toronto. Actually I went over. You have a wonderful time in Canada, both Ottawa and Toronto. Actually I went over. You have a wonderful lady in Toronto called Katie Summers who I follow on social media. She's my favourite person. She's so good and so kind and so humble that I said I've got to meet this lady and her family. So I arranged I didn't. I wasn't planning to go as a speaker, I just said I would love to meet her and her family. So I arranged I didn't,

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 46:47

I wasn't planning to go as a speaker, I just said I would love to meet her and her family and the organisation that she works with, because they do wonderful outreach work on the streets of Toronto and educational work in schools. I wanted to meet her and some of the other people there. So I thought it would be nice to coincide with their March for Life, because I realised that Toronto March for Life is not very large, certainly nothing compared to the Washington March for Life. So I thought at least myself and my wife would go over and support them. And when she heard I was coming, she said would you mind speaking as well and I said, well, I'd be very happy to speak whatever you want me to talk about. So she got me to speak on the abortion of her oh of her. By the way, if you're coming to Canada, my friend in Ottawa she mentioned her friend might be very interested. If you go to the Ottawa Martial Ice, I said, well, I'd be very happy.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 47:32

Again, I don't expect to be invited to speak, I'll pay my own way. I didn't expect to be invited so I paid all my own expenses and whatever it took to get there and accommodations. I don't accept If I give a speak, I don't take any stipends or fees because it's an important cause and I think for people like me. I get reasonably well paid as a doctor. I don't need the pro-life charities to pay me in addition to what I get, because they need the money for other things. So I don't charge any fees and I'm happy to pay my own expenses for any events I try to attend. But we had a lovely time in Ottawa and in Toronto. It was great. I really hope to go back again.

Sheila Nonato: 48:18

Awesome. When did your pro-life views start and how do you keep going?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 48:30

I can't pinpoint any particular time, because I grew up in Ireland, I'm Irish, I live in the UK, but I spent the first 30 years in Ireland more than 30 years. Ireland was a pro-life country and there was no abortion. We had a referendum in 1983 that enshrined the right to life of the unborn, which was brilliant, but unfortunately, another referendum in 2018 has changed all that.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 48:58

I suppose the one thing that I can think of is that I realised, probably when I was about 13 or 14, I'm a music fan and I was asking people about their favorite songs. I was doing a little survey in my school and I asked one of the teachers what was his favorite song and he said, oh, blown in the Wind, and I'd heard of that because I'd heard a version. I didn't know much about Bob Dylan, but I said, oh, that's Bob Dylan.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 49:24

I said, "h, yeah, I must look into that." So then I looked at the song, looked at the words and it struck me that in the second verse, how many times can a man turn his head and pretend that he just doesn't see? That, probably more than anything else, struck me deeply that my life is not only about myself. There are other people that need love and care and protection, and I, you've got to do something in your life that would be of value to other people that need love and care and protection. Um, I, you've got to do something in your life that would be of value to other people. Um, you can't just keep your head in the sand and not. So that That was probably the turning point. So I would have been 13, 14 at the time. Um, and then later, when I heard about abortion you know it wasn't something that I didn't think was going to affect me. Even when I was doing medical training in Ireland, there were no abortions, but it became pretty clear that abortion was probably eventually going to come to Ireland. Then, when I came to the UK, when I realised I was working in a hospital where abortions were provided it never struck me before I'd taken the job. It was only I came across it later that abortions were being provided I said I have to do something about this, and I knew you just couldn't go and tell people to stop doing them. You had to be a little bit more tactful. So I've tried to create awareness. I've tried. You can't just,. you You know you have to respect the rights of other people.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 50:48

hat, I try to at least create conversation, just in gentle ways, so I'll have a cold conversation like you know, what area do you hope to specialize in when you're another few years' time? And if they say obstetrics or gynecology or general practices, oh, that's wonderful. Now will you be worried about any ethical concerns? And some of them do. Particularly, some of the Muslim doctors and some of the Catholics and other Christians are a bit concerned that they might be pressurized to doing something that would go against their conscience. So at least I'm in a position that I know what the law is and I know what ethical practice is, what the law is, and I know what ethical practice is and I'm able to help them to realize that they do not have to do anything that goes against their conscience, at least as the law stands at the moment. So I'm able to give good legal advice and ethical advice to some junior doctors and some medical students in that area. That's how I joined the Catholic Medical Association. That's how. That's how, actually, I got involved with abortion (pill) reversal.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 51:44

As a member of the Catholic Medical Association, we were just supporting Catholics working in healthcare to help them to provide excellent healthcare services but at the same time not to do anything that would go against their conscience or the conscience of others. And it was at one of our meetings that one of the pro-life organizations founders came to meet us because he had heard in america that women who had taken mifepristone were able to reverse their their abortion, and he wondered could we look into it? Because women were coming to him, to his or he was the president of a pro-life organization in the uk and women were already coming to him this is 2014 seeking help after they regretted taking mifepristone and that was 2014 and none of us knew anything about it. We said we'd look into it. There wasn't a lot of information, but then I I looked into it more and more and uh, and it took me six years before because we were concerned about the.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 52:38

You know, is it first of all, is it necessary, does it work and is it safe? They were the three big questions. What objections might there be against her? And so we went about it and we set it up. The thing that they actually and I often mention this when I give these little conversations the statement that convinced me more about abortion reversal than anything else actually came from a person who calls himself pro-choice. There was an article in The New York Times in 2017 and it was a very good article because it gave a good, balanced view. It gave a pro-APR abortion reversal but also gave the other side as well and the objections they had.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 53:15

But there was a neutral observer, a guy called Professor Harvey Kliman from Yale Medical School. He's a professor of essential research and reproductive health and he said that abortion pill reversal makes absolute biological sense. You know the personal experience of it. But he knew he knows biochemistry and biology and pharmacology. So this makes absolute biological sense. And, uh, if I had a daughter who was pregnant and she took nifepristone by accident but wanted to save her pregnancy, I would give her progesterone. I'd give her high dose progesterone for a few days and I bet you it would work. So when, when someone like him and he called himself pro-choice and with someone with his credentials made that state, that was 2017 before I knew. I certainly didn't know enough about it. It was only 2018 when I went to america to meet pioneers of the service and go to various talks and read more and more about it. But that was the one statement that sort of probably influenced me more than anything else that yes, this could work and it's necessary and it's safe. And so we took it from there.

Sheila Nonato: 54:26

Was there anything else that you wanted to add that I had missed asking?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 54:35

Yeah, you asked me a little bit earlier about how do I keep going. Well, I keep going because women need it, like I keep going with the abortion pill because women there's a demand for it. I keep going with the abortion pill because women there's a demand for it. So if there wasn't, if women didn't want it or didn't need it, I would stop. I don't go out looking for clients. I'm trying to create awareness of it so that at least it's an option that mothers know is there.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 55:00

If they do change their mind after they're taken, I'm very careful that I give them very truthful, very honest, based on personal experience and on what I've read from other sources. I give them all of the up-to-date information that they would need for this and you know, 30 percent of them decide not. 35 percent decide not to go ahead and the other what 65 percent do, at least they started. Some of them don't continue, some of them change their minds after a while, um, but, but it keeps me going because there's a demand for it. Uh, the other thing that um, one of your one, one of the very first podcasts I did was with a wonderful guy in Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh, called um Travis, who was an evangelical who had heard about my story and he saw something on social media about it and he sent me a DM and asked could he interview me? This was at a time when the case was still ongoing. There was lots of things I wasn't allowed to say. But I told him yes, I'd be very happy to speak to you, but there will be some restrictions on some of the information I'm allowed to say because it hadn't been settled at that stage. But he asked. He said now many of my listeners will be very keen to know how does your Christian faith sustain you in all of this, with all of the trials and tribulations and the opposition and the hatred that you've had to face? How does your Christian faith keep you going? And I said well, that's interesting because it reminds me of another lady called Patricia Heaton.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 56:31

She's an actress in Hollywood. I don't know her, I don't think I've ever seen her in acting, but her most famous role is in a program called Everybody Loves Raymond, I think, which he knew it straight away. I didn't know what it was, but he knew. But she was asked that same question. But she's a catholic working in Hollywood and she's very pro-life and she's not afraid to speak her to, to talk about her beliefs.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 56:54

And somebody asked her you know, how do you, in in Hollywood, where there's so much opposition to your, your way of life and your principles, how do you manage to to, to live and to cope with the opposition that you're undoubtedly facing? And she says well, come Judgment Day, it's not Barbara Streisand, I'm going to have to stand before. Now, nothing against Barbara Streisand. She's a wonderful singer, a wonderful lady, I'm sure, a wonderful actress, but she is quite outspoken in her pro-emotion stance and so on. But Patricia Heaton picked Barbara Streisand as being the person that she's not, it's not her, she'll have to stand before.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 57:33

So I said to Travis, "well, on judgment day, it's not the GMC (General Medical Council, UK) or the Royal College of Obstretricians. I'm going to have to stand before when I'm asked to give an account of my life. So there is a higher dean, a perfect judge, who will judge us, so, so perfect justice will be delivered, and we just want to make sure that we're on the right side of of of justice and doing what's right. So that's what, what basically keeps you going to the knowledge that I know I that what I'm doing is right and that I just want to keep doing what's right as long as people need it. If people don't need it, I'll do something else.

Sheila Nonato: 58:14

Well, as a personal aside, I have actually been a patient, have been receiving, had been receiving intramuscular progesterone supplementation and three of my children are here. Because of that, I've been receiving it until the ninth month, to be honest. Yeah, two shots every week. Yeah, it was quite the challenge, but it was worth it. But so I can attest to how progesterone can help in supporting pregnancy.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 58:40

It's very safe. It's safe for the mother, it's safe for the baby and it works. It doesn't always work because unfortunately, unfortunately, miscarriage can happen for other reasons which aren't related to progesterone. So progesterone doesn't prevent all cases of miscarriage, but it does and I know many women who've benefited from progesterone over many, many years and I know, obviously I know 30 or so who've benefited from, in my own case, from the babies some of those, some of those 30 babies because of 29 that I've helped and the 30 is due to um, some of them probably would have survived anyway, but there's no way of knowing that.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 59:17

For example, I treat people with heart attacks nearly every day or many days a week, and knowing that we give them all the same treatment uh, knowing that the treatment is beneficial. But we also know that there's some patients, even if they got none of the treatment that we have, would probably do okay, they would still survive. They would still survive without heart failure and if they get an ongoing pain, then they need some additional treatment.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 59:38

But a lot of people do have a heart attack, but we all give them. We give them the same treatment. We know that in many cases the treatment is probably not as essential as it is in other patients because not everybody has the same need and response in the same way. And I look on the abortion pill reversal exactly the same that we give the treatment in good faith, that we know it will help some. We know that some would probably survive even without the treatment, but we don't know which.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 1:00:01

If we knew for certain that, yes, you're definitely going to survive if you don't get treatment but you definitely need treatment, then that would make it easier. But we don't know in advance. And same with the heart attack. We don't know the person you least expect to have a cardiac arrest or some serious complication could be the, could be the one that would have it, and those that you think are probably not going to do very well within a couple of weeks are up running marathons again. So you don't always, you can't always predict who's going to respond in what way to the treatment that we have to offer. We just know that it's safe and that it works and that it's the two most important things the efficacy and the safety.

Sheila Nonato: 1:00:39

Thank you very much for your time. I know you're on call today and you still.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 1:00:43

I'm not actually on call. I was on call earlier today, but I'm not on call at this moment in time. I managed to leave work before we had our conversation.

Sheila Nonato: 1:01:05

Okay, well, thank you again for giving your time to us and explaining what's happening with abortion pill reversal. I've never actually heard of it until I saw it on X. And you tweeted about it, so I thank you very much for your time and thank you so much. God bless you and your work. Thank you very much.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 1:01:23

I hope that God bless you. Thank you, Sheila.

Sheila Nonato: 1:01:24

Take care. Thank you very much. I hope that God bless you.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 1:01:27

Thank you, sheila, take care. Thank you very much, bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Sheila Nonato: 1:01:43

Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armour podcast.

Co-Host: 1:01:47

I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom today. Please subscribe to our podcast and YouTube channel and please spread the word. Let's Be Brave, let's Be Bold and Be Blessed together.