$150K Christian Influencer Shares The “Dark Side” Of The Business with Brendan Schmidt

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Brendan Schmidt is the founder of Masculine Revival, a business that started as an Instagram page and quickly grew into a full-time income helping men through coaching and men’s group programs.

Brendan and Curt talk about the logistical, business side of things, including how Brendan makes $150K/year, but then spend a lot of time talking about the “dark side” of being an influencer.

This is a conversation that is happening behind closed doors between people who are feeling the weight of being in such an unnatural position, but this is maybe the first time a conversation like this has been shared publicly.

There’s a larger conversation around social media, coaching as a profession (especially when you’re helping Christians), and how to balance being an influencer and staying humble and focused on what’s most important, so consider this the introduction to an important topic.

We talk about:

1:29 The story of Masculine Revival

4:42 One platform focus and messaging on IG

8:41 The energy-driven business structure

14:16 Can you just be a mission-driven “purist” as an entrepreneur?

21:34 The faith to walk away from business?

22:40 Becoming a Christian, pivoting business, questioning everything

27:18 The bizarre weight and conflict of being a Christian influencer

36:20 Don’t make the business the be all, end all

45:48 More time for local community?

52:11 Subscription boxes

Brendan’s Links:

Masculine Revival on Instagram

Masculine Revival Podcast (Find on Apple, Spotify, YouTube)

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

CTB Episode 2 with Scott Rammage (Find on Apple, Spotify, YouTube)

Family Teams

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Transcript

Curt: 0:00

Welcome back to the Christian Stocking Business Podcast. My name is Kurt Storing, your host. I am joined by my friend Brendan Schmidt today. And of course, guys, this episode, as always, is brought to you by Proclaim Podcasting. If you're a Christian coach or entrepreneur and you podcast and you'd love to just hit record and forget about all the hassle that comes after that show notes, editing, posting reels, head on over to proclaimpodcasting. com, get a consultation. We'll chat with you, see if we can help. Anyway, here we are with Brendan Schmidt at Masculine Revival himself. How are you?

Brendan: 0:28

I'm doing very well. So just in, in a full transparency, we were just laughing very, very intensely as we were kind of getting this together. We're both, we're good friends. We've done a couple of podcasts together. Uh, I don't know. Our dynamic on podcasts can be interesting sometimes. I think we've got a history and we were just laughing hysterically. So here we are. Well done. Well done. Getting through that intro. Kurt.

Curt: 0:49

Thank you. And you know, what's fantastic is, uh, comparing your confidence in audio format compared to the first time we tried to do this, um, I, I won't, I won't tell the story unless you would like me to, um, but let's just say the, the growth that can be experienced, uh, over the course of a couple of years is remarkable because, uh, we actually, we hit record this time.

Brendan: 1:10

Yes, we made it here. Yeah. I, uh,

Curt: 1:12

Yeah.

Brendan: 1:13

struggled with pretty intense anxiety behind, behind the scenes in my come up with my social media influencer journey. And I've definitely come leaps and bounds.

Curt: 1:22

that you were just. I thought you were just on all the time as an influencer. Isn't that how this

Brendan: 1:27

Definitely not. Definitely not.

Curt: 1:29

Okay. Well, maybe, maybe we should talk about that then. Um, because Brendan and I have followed a very similar path. In fact, um, he inspired me in my own journey with dad work. And one of the first calls we did, uh, was figuring out how I could even use Instagram to build a business because he was crushing it. It seemed like every post was just getting, you know, thousands of followers. And so we started talking, uh, then I invited you on the dad work podcast and that. Absolutely horrific experience ended up being like a hugely vulnerable basis for friendship Uh, that's been really awesome now over the course of a number of different seasons um, but Would you maybe just lay out for those of you who don't know what at masculine revival is which if you don't uh get a life But but seriously, how how did this? Come to be, you are a so called influencer, and we're going to tear that apart later in this conversation. Um, but maybe give us a story of mask and revival and just you as an entrepreneur.

Brendan: 2:25

So for a long, long time, I wanted to make a living through making an impact on the lives of other people. So I think from probably from the age of like 16, 17, I felt that calling. And I struggled immensely to actually figure out how to step into that. I think from the age of probably 21, I started to figure out, Hey, making money online as a thing sounds really appealing. And I started to try to, you know, figure out how can I influence and impact people and get paid to do it. And I really didn't want to do any other work other than that from the time I got into my twenties. And it, uh, it was a journey with a lot of twists and turns, but I joined a men's group when I was 25 years old. It was profoundly impactful. It helped me do a lot of healing and growth. I think you also come from the same community. We didn't know each other then, which is interesting. Here we are now. Uh, but that men's group was a major catalyst for me in my growth and development as a man. And men's work became a passion and calling for me as a result of that. And then I found the topic of traditional gender roles. I started thinking about becoming a husband and father and I started sharing my writing and reflections online and really quickly it took off like pretty much right away. It's like there is a period of about, I think I went from pretty much no following to somewhere in the ballpark of 20 K within the first six months. And within the first six months, I was earning a full time income. So I started out just sharing my writing and reflections, and then I started offering coaching for men and couples, and I was able to quit my landscaping job. So I was just working whenever I could to just to support myself. I was able to quit that and jump into it full time from that point.

Curt: 4:17

All right. So how, when did you start this by the way?

Brendan: 4:20

So this was in, it would have been, let me see, I'm trying to think now, I think it was November of 2020, December of 2020 is when it really. It started to, yeah, it was December of 2020 is when I really started getting into it. And then by the end of April of 2021, I was already earning a full time income, just,

Curt: 4:42

Okay. So you started this, it was just an Instagram page, right? You didn't start anywhere

Brendan: 4:46

just Instagram. And that was one thing for me too, is that I know a lot of people when they're starting out, they want to do all of the different things like Tik TOK, YouTube, Twitter, email list. And for me, I was like, I just want to keep it simple. I was having success with Instagram. So I doubled down and I just did Instagram. And once I found something that worked, I wrote that. All the way up to where I am now, which is 168, 000 on Instagram.

Curt: 5:11

Yeah. And is that, so maybe just like super inside baseball here, but what's changed in Instagram because you were really big on like the, the well designed Twitter style posts. Um, and I'm curious if that's actually a thing that people can still follow or is it just like all reels now?

Brendan: 5:25

Yeah. So what I find with Instagram now is that it's just not a platform for writers anymore. Uh, so doing carousel style posts just doesn't work. And that's what I used for the bulk of my growth was writing, you know, 10 slide posts that were consumable, easily digestible, shareable, you know, easily understandable. I had this whole formula that I tried, I tried to follow and I applied it to everything I was doing. And it just absolutely took off. Nowadays, it seems like growth on Instagram is much more about videos. Reels, right? So I think it's making something interesting. That's really, really easily consumable in a video format. And that's not really my strength. So I've, I've definitely felt de incentivized on that platform now as a result of that.

Curt: 6:13

Yeah, I think there's probably a good conversation at some point here about that and like, what, what are you supposed to do? Um, but maybe let's talk about that branding piece because, uh, you said formula and I think the formula that I recall was how can I say masculinity, good feminism, bad in a new way today. And I think like that's both funny and really actually insightful because I think like me, I was going, dude, I want to talk about like a thousand different things and there's no cohesive narrative. Um, can you talk about just developing that as like a brand strategy to create content?

Brendan: 6:46

Yeah. So essentially what I, what I found with Instagram was, you know, I'd make, make a punchy statement on the first slide and then I would essentially have nine other slides that were explaining the original statement in different ways. And so every slide was independently shareable and pretty quickly, I found, okay, you know, I saw I was in the relationship masculinity niche and people really liked the message of masculine men create feminine women. So I kind of started to find the messages that resonated. And then I was just about kind of trying to repackage those messages in a variety of ways to kind of keep things interesting and fresh. And That was extremely successful. So I kind of was essentially just reiterating on the same things in a variety of different ways, which I think we're going to talk about a bit later, probably that that kind of does get old after a while. So that's like, you kind of, you live the dream, you you've got the impact, you got the influence, but then you find yourself kind of beholden to. Your creation and what made you successful. So what if then you're a person with evolving views and you're changing and you're growing and your audience wants to hear you say, masculinity good, feminism bad over and over. And you're starting to feel like, Hey, maybe, maybe I have energy for other things and that's not necessarily what I wanna be saying.

Curt: 8:01

Yeah, no, let's, let's definitely get there. Um, in a few minutes, let's go back to the actual, like logistics of the business. Cause like I said, this is super fun for me to just be like, You were doing landscaping and now you're like a, you know, a six figure influencer. It's like as a hook, that's pretty sweet. And so let's go, let's maybe go back to that point where you're like, Hey, a few months in, I'm suddenly making money. Um, you know, full time income. What is your product progression look like? Cause I know we've talked a lot about like, Oh, do I do this? Do I do this? It was coaching at first. When did the men's group come around? Like, what was the. Maybe what was the breakdown in revenue or what did the progression of that product line look like for you as a business?

Brendan: 8:41

So I started with more high ticket type coaching. That was the first thing I did, uh, that was going pretty well. And then I started a, a men's group. So it's essentially, it's essentially group coaching and. Right away that, that worked and I found that I loved it and it was interesting for me because nothing I've done, so I've now been full time for three years and nothing I've done besides the men's group has been as rewarding, fulfilling, impactful and meaningful for me. And it's almost been a curse in some ways, because the level of. Meaning that the brotherhood, the men's groups have to me, so I scaled it from 1, 1 group up to 5. So at any given time, there's 55, 60 men in the, in the brotherhood. We're paying a monthly membership for being there. Uh, yeah, it was, it's been really successful both in terms of just the stability. So I have this monthly recurring income bills are paid. Everything's good. So if nothing else happens, I'm covered and I absolutely love what's happening within that. And then I've tried a variety of different things. nothing has really felt quite the same to me. So I've almost been a bit of a purist in my thinking where it's like that, that one thing has been so meaningful that nothing else compares to it that I'm almost like, Oh, I don't want to do it then. And much to my wife's frustration sometimes, because she looks at that and she's like, You know, bro, like there's an opportunity here. Why can't you just get over yourself and put this thing together? And I'm like, no, it doesn't have the same depth and meaning to me because I don't have energy for it. And it's been really frustrating for me in some ways too, because you know that there is more opportunity and I'm, I'm just so into what I'm doing that I kind of just don't have energy for anything else.

Curt: 10:26

Yeah. Have there been any things that have worked? Like I know you did, um, Like a little bit of affiliate stuff. I know you did, um, like the courtship network and whatever that supplement was. Like what, what else has worked or

Brendan: 10:38

Yeah. So the, the courtship network affiliation has been really good for me. So I think anytime you can do an affiliate marketing thing, that's monthly recurring. So if a person signs up, you collect a commission, uh, on a recurring basis, that's really awesome because there's security in that too. So that that's been good. But um, probably 80 percent of my business over the last three years has been all brotherhood related. Uh, I've done a little bit of coaching here and there. I've kind of scaled that back. Uh, I'm, I'm just. So heart, mind, soul into the brotherhood that that's really been what I focus on. And so where, where I've scaled out to is, you know, I'm roughly around 150 K a year and I can run the business on minimum. If I, if I do the minimal, which I often don't, I usually end up working extra because I just, um, I can be pretty passionate and obsessed about what I'm doing, but 15, 20 hours a week. So, you know, I, I, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday are my big work days. And then we have a growing family and I'm at home, which is really cool. So it's the lifestyle aspect has been good for sure.

Curt: 11:45

Yeah. Okay. So, so you're on that like super comfortable range. Everything's taken care of. Um, you like what you do for, you know, 15 hours a week. You've got all this amazing time. What does running your business look like right now? And I think this is maybe where we start getting into some of the challenges, but let's just like, Keep it super practical for the next couple of minutes. What do you do? How does it work? Like, how can you, how can you too become a masculine influencer on Instagram? And then we'll talk about maybe why

Brendan: 12:14

So what I do is I create content. So I have a podcast and I create content on Instagram and that content serves as a funnel into my meds groups. Or, you know, people click onto the courtship network and I collect an affiliate fee for them signing up. So I create content, which drives people to an offer. And I've, I think in the history of my brand, I've, I think I've spent 10 on advertising and I advertised one time and I was then not able to advertise anymore. So Instagram does not allow me to do any more advertising. I guess it was flagged as hate speech because I was advertising for a men's group. Um,

Curt: 12:52

How dare you?

Brendan: 12:53

so what I actually do in my week right now is Monday night, I run a men's group from 5 PM. And Then Tuesday I do my, it's a big podcast day, Wednesday I have another men's group, 530 to 8 PM. And then over the course of the week, I'm, you know, I, I'm really deeply invested in the men in my community. Some on the phone with them often. And so it's content creation, running my groups, staying in connection with the guys that are in my program. And that's all I really need to do to, to maintain my business.

Curt: 13:28

Okay. So let's talk a little bit about that sort of longing for more, because I think that like, for me, I got really hung up on. Oh, I know guys who have like a third of my following who are making like 10 times as much money. And for me, and I know that like, we're, we're fairly different in this, but I know there's like a little bit of that draw as well. Um, I was like, bro, I'm not making enough. And it sounds like, you know, you and your wife have talked about that kind of thing. How do you, How do you think about that? Because I know it's challenging to go like, dude, you've got 150, 000 people. I know people with like 20, 000 followers who are making like, you know, mid six figures. What's the balance between like good for them and like, yeah, but maybe there is opportunity here. Cause can you just be a purist in business? Like, let's talk about

Brendan: 14:17

That's a great question. And that's a question that I've struggled with immensely over the last three years because there. I've gone through these cycles where I've rested into contentment and gone, wow, I'm making 150, 000. I'm at home. I'm with my, you know, my wife has been full time stay at home since we got married. Praise God. Amazing. What a blessing. This is great. And then I started to get this itch sometimes where I'm like, yeah, but you know, well, dad works crushing it. Right. Or, or, or, or whoever, you know, and I'm like looking around and I'm like, okay, well, maybe I should put a course together or maybe I should put this other thing together. And I started getting into the, you know, even with the brotherhood there's been times where I was like, I'm going to raise the, I'm going to raise the rates. It's where I'm going to come up, come up with a new format for the brotherhood that maybe I can scale it to 80 K a month. Wouldn't that be nice? Right. And I kind of go through these periods where I start to want more and I almost give into it and I start going down that path and then I go, Oh yeah, I don't really care about more enough to put myself through this. Nevermind. And I, I kind of go back and I, and then I'm like, ah, there's the contentment again. There's the peace. There's the, there I am like with, with God and just relaxing and enjoying my life and what I've created. And I think staying in that contentment can be really difficult, especially as a man, because we're in a lot of ways, we are wired to always be looking over the next horizon and what's next, what's the next thing, where am I going? So that's been tough, but I think. I think it is important for entrepreneurs to have to, to have a number in mind of what is enough. Otherwise, you know, I think, I think it can really. Turn on you where you, you finally get what you want and then you're unsettled and then you're off to the next thing and you just perpetually stay on the hamster wheel of, uh, once I get this, then everything will be better forever and ever. And you're just constantly chasing it all the time and you never really find rest, even though rest was kind of what you were looking for with the whole pursuit. You get it and you're like, oh, yeah, this is enough. I want more. So I've seen a lot. I've personally gone through that a lot. I've seen a lot of people around me struggle with that as well.

Curt: 16:32

Yeah, and I I don't know if there's an actual answer to this because and I think I told you this before now I've mentioned this on the podcast and I will keep saying it because it's been so profound for me There's a curse man. Like there's literally a curse that says you're gonna toil by the sweat of your brow all the days of your life and What is my longing as a man? to keep going to do more to build more to make more money and And At the deeper sense to find rest in that in that, not in God, but in that security of money and business and fame and whatever else that thing is. And I just got this so clear to me in prayer a couple of weeks ago. It's like, Bro, you'll never get that because there's a curse. You'll never be bigger than this curse while you're on here. Praise God that he sent his son so that we can actually have hope because it's hopeless otherwise. Because we always want more. We always want that contentment that'll never come with the money. But for me, it pointed me to heaven. And that was the first time I've ever actually longed for heaven. Because I'm like, I'll just make more money. I'll be fine here. And it's like, no, bro, you won't. Ever. And so I'm curious, like, when you think about your number, when you think about contentment, How do you come to, Oh, this is enough. Cause I think like we're both in a similar season of life where I'm, I want to save up for a house. I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to bless my future, you know, um, grandkids. And I don't want, you know, the, to put the tinfoil hat on. I don't want, you know, globo homo government to stop me from buying land before I can get there. So like, how does that math work for you?

Brendan: 18:03

So the math works for me. I look around and I take stock of where I'm at. And, you know, right now we're, we're renting an acreage. We're in a beautiful place. Like I said, my wife's not working, she's full time stay at home and life is good and most of the things that we want, we have. So who am I then to say, like, and also too, I said earlier that, you know, it's a, it was a multi year journey of me getting to where I am. And I wanted, I wanted this life of the laptop, the laptop lifestyle, uh, being able to stay at home, all these different things that I have now making an impact. I have it now. I achieved, I have achieved my dream. So in a lot of ways it's felt almost selfish to be like, yeah, but now I want what's the next level. So to me, it's just like looking around, taking stock and just realizing like I have everything that I, that I want. Um, I, I will say though, it's interesting as a man as well, because I think as, as Christians, obviously you can't serve two masters, money or God. Right. And I think a lot of Christians really struggle with. The topic of money and, uh, there's a bit of a, almost poverty as a virtue type thing that can creep in. And it's interesting. I've been thinking a lot about the fact that on one hand, we have to have that worldly attachment as husbands and fathers. Like I have a, I have an obligation to my family to, to provide for them. And that means materially. So I have to have some engagement with the world. Um, and that, that whole dynamic has been really interesting. I know that you and I have been talking about that privately as well.

Curt: 19:43

Yeah, no, that's um, that's man, as the supernatural becomes more real to me, those are questions that come up that I don't know. I don't know the answer to yet. Um, I've thought about that a lot as you know, you, um, you know, by God's grace have, Also helped me get on this totally new path, uh, towards seeking who Jesus is, how he wants me to worship him, uh, how I can be sort of part of the church. And that's caused a lot of spiritual things to become much more real rather than intellectual and even moral. Um, and so, yeah, how do you balance having to be in the world, having to provide? And the way that I think about that, just as you're talking, I don't know if this is useful to anyone else. So, you know, we'll, we'll. Cut this off soon. Um, this is my path and your path to being sanctified, um, to theosis, if you will, because we would easily find that path as monks in a monastery somewhere, because we're, we're sort of wired to just like go all in on God. Like we both went from like, just, you know, new age, atheistic, agnostic to like, dude, all in, in a way that's really uncomfortable. I think sometimes. And so that would be the easy way to do things. Oh yeah. I'm just, I'm giving myself to God by going to be like alone and I'm on a monastery, but God's like, no, no, no. It's way harder for you to do that in the family, in the world, because you're going to be more tempted and I'll have more opportunity to mold you into the likeness of my son. What do you think about that?

Brendan: 21:10

Oh, a hundred, a hundred percent. And it is, it is tough to, to be in that, it's that call to be in the world of it. Right. So, yeah, that's, that's been a huge thing for me and just about balancing. The faith, the faith walk with running this business and, uh, interestingly enough, in a lot of ways, I'm at, I'm at a place where my faith is so important to me that I would walk away from this in a second if I felt convicted and called to do so, and I will be honest and say that I have, I have at times very much considered doing that, interestingly enough.

Curt: 21:45

Yeah, dude. And conversations galore here because I literally did that. Um, and it's been terrifying and awesome. And I think that's, that's where I would love to steer this over the next little bit because we've talked about, you know, You know, three years, you just started this thing, live in the laptop lifestyle after dreaming about this for, you know, 10 years or whatever it is. That's sweet. Guys are like, okay, sign me up. I'm going to go start an Instagram page. Before you go to Instagram and create a new account, just hold on guys, because it could be the right choice, but maybe not. And my story is very much that it was great for a season. And I was just drastically, radically called away from it. Yeah. Why? And I can, you know, chime in with my story as we go, but let's talk about this. Maybe, you know what, let's go back a little bit though, because you became a Christian while you were doing this business. Like I did, that's a little bit hard. So maybe work us from, Hey, I got to pivot everything to Christianity now to then like this need for everything to be so meaningful to then this, like, I don't know if Instagram's a place for me and maybe I shouldn't do this at all. Like, let's just walk that tightrope for a little while.

Brendan: 22:57

Yeah. So I, with masking revival, I, my message was, I was like kind of in this perfect spot where I could speak to the new agers. I can speak to Christians. And people, when I started, people loved my page. Like I, it, my pages was taking off, like everything I shared, it was like, I kind of had this like magic touch to everything I was doing at that time. And then I became a Christian and you know, I'm talking about marriage and relationships and all these different things. And obviously God has a lot to say about marriage and gender and roles and all this kind of stuff. So once I became a Christian, I started to be convicted to talk about God and talk about my faith and talk about gender roles in a biblical light, not just a traditional gender role type thing. Like, no, what does the Bible have to say about it? And I will tell you that as soon as I did that, there was a drop off in engagement. And I almost have never been as popular from that point, from the first time I made a post and I said. I'm a Christian. I'm basing my life on the Bible. This is the answer for me. You know, you should probably think about this too. There is a distinct drop off. And that has been really tough to navigate. It's interesting to put yourself also like a position of authority where people are listening to you, especially on topics, like, like I said, that God has so much to say about. And I think as I've walked this, this Christian life more and more, I've found that what people really need is often really good church community. Maybe it's not necessarily some of the things that I've been saying, right? So then we'll have, how then do I go forward? How do I keep doing this? If that's the case where I'm, I'm finding more and more that it's not. It's not, you know, masculinity and gender roles necessarily that are, they're not the be all end all for me. They, when I started, I had a ton of energy for those things and my wife and I would talk about them all the time and it was a big deal for us and we loved it and I was passionate about it. And now like, what do we talk about now? We talk about being Christlike. What does it mean to die to ourselves? What does it mean to deny our flesh? What does it mean to love each other in this other worldly way? Um, and that it's like, does that message translate to a business? And it's, it's kind of weird when, how do you, there's such a, even as I'm saying this, I'm just realizing like, it's just what a messy thing, right? Cause it's like, there's that deep and profound, beautiful faith that we're pursuing. And then it's like, well, now I have this business attached to it. And it all, it almost feels like a bit of an ick feeling in some ways when it, when you get in, when you start going in that direction and I know that you felt the same with, with that or to a degree, right?

Curt: 25:38

Yeah, exactly. This is the, I'll say this is the dark side of following your passion as a business. Um, particularly when your passion is something that is so fundamental and vulnerable. And that's what I thought about data work too, right? Like my sales cycle was actually pretty long. People had to be following me on my podcast and my email list for like six to 12 months because it was so vulnerable. Yeah. And because it was so fundamental, like other than the salvation itself, uh, or profession of faith in Christ, like your family for me, and it sounds like a lot of what you guys talk about as well is like kind of number two there with vulnerability. And when you start talking about that, you can't just be like, Hey, here's my three step process to sell more in your business. And then it's like, okay, I can just end it there. Hey, do you want to talk about family? Not my deal, bro. Sorry. We're just here to teach you business. But when you're literally building a business on the most fundamental building blocks of reality, and those are faith and supernatural, and they require you to be in a certain framework toward God, bro, I just couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't reconcile that. Where it was a business, because like you said, I'm like, I said multiple times, I can't believe this is a business. And in fact, this should not dad work should not be a business. It should be like you said, churches, elders, et cetera, in the community. How do I charge for this anymore? And it, for me, man, it colored all my interactions with anybody who wanted to help. Cause I was like, of course I'll help you. But bro, the guy who saw my post who didn't just reach out, he would have been paying me 4, 000 for this and you're not. And so it's like, dude, that put me in such a gross spot. And so, yeah, this is the dark side of having such a passion for these things that are so deep.

Brendan: 27:18

Yeah. And so I'll be honest with the listener right now and just say that I'm in, I'm in a weird spot with what I'm doing because so much of what you're doing when you're an influencer is you're putting out a message and you're saying, Hey, you need this. Hey, this matters. Hey, listen to me. Hey, I have an answer. You know, you have a problem. I have an answer. Let me like tune in, find out more. And I, I look at that now sometimes and I'm like, you know, masculinity and marriage dynamics and da, da, da, da, da. And it's like, no Christ. No, you need like, you need Christ. Like, I, I'm almost in a space to where I'm like, don't listen to me. Like, okay. I've, I've. So that's the thing about me too, is that like, I'm a very introverted, quiet, keep to myself type of type of guy. And then here I found myself in this spotlight. And I think before I became a Christian, there was a part of me that was like almost wanting to prove to myself and to the world that I had value and that I was somebody. And it was like, I think I, I triumphed and I got there and I'm like, see, I'm somebody. Yeah. Look, I have all these followers, I got the business, I'm him, I'm the man, right? And then I became a Christian and I was like, Oh wait, no, like that's one that was like a false desire. That was some like childhood, whatever wounding. And then now I'm in a place where I'm like, it's almost like the opposite where I'm like, I don't want the platform. I don't want to be heard or seen. What I want is to live a quiet, simple, obedient, faithful life. Um, and then, and then what do you do now when you have this big thing and it's what you do to support your family. So I think. This, this is where I think nobody talks, or this isn't talked about a ton, but just it is, it is the dark side of when you get, when you get there, when you make it, when you, when you finally have the social media business or, or you, you, you know, you stumble on what you think is your passion or your calling. And you start to find that one life goes on. Life is still hard. Work still sucks. Sometimes there's days where you don't have energy for it. And. Yeah, and it's tough too when you're, when you're doing something that's so multifaceted, right? It's not, it's not like I'm just running some, whatever you're talking about, some business selling slime online or whatever, right? It's not that it's, you're, you're talking about marriage and all these really meaningful deep things that have massive implications because people are listening to you. And I know in some cases, like with my content, with the podcast, like A woman might hear the message, misunderstand it and might move towards divorce. So it's a big deal. It's a bit, it's a big weight and a big responsibility.

Curt: 30:04

Yeah, I mean, I can't remember the exact scripture, but I'm pretty sure there's at least two different places. I'm thinking of one in relation to teachers, one in relation to those who have seen the light of Christ. There's a greater responsibility. In that position and I'm just maybe for the first time realizing the weight of that and how ill equipped I am to hold that and sadly we have a space to hold it because The people who should be aren't whether that's churches whether that's elders whether that's whoever there's not a good structure of that anymore perhaps Um, and that should leave us Seeking that and building that I think in real life Um, and I just felt like for me and i'm curious actually how you handle this me When I'm the guy teaching. I started to believe my own BS, man, um, because, because it was really right to a large degree. Like it literally saved my life. I wasn't like making things up, but I started to believe that what I said was like, you know, the way. Um, and I started to believe that I had to show up as being dad work Kurt always. And so when I was with my wife and kids at the dinner table and I like said something remarkable, I was like, Oh, I have to write an Instagram. Like, hold on, guys. I know we just connected, but like, just give me a sec. And it would pull me away. And I just got in this weird, like, identity crisis of I'm actually being more of an a hole to my family by sharing how I'm being awesome with my family. Have you seen anything like that as we just go down the dark rabbit hole here?

Brendan: 31:31

Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, you see, you create something. And so I think when you create a brand that is centered around you, like in your case, it was like, dad, we're Kurt, you're the guy, you're him, you're him. Right. And it's like, people are following to learn how to essentially like what you know, and to almost be like you. Like, okay, well, and then you're in your private moments, you're like, wait, maybe you shouldn't be like me and it's like, it's like with me too. It's like, okay, masculine revival, like, and there was a while there where I'm like, okay. Um, what I'm asking her Bible now, like, what does that mean? Well, I better get more jacked and I better, you know, try to figure out a way to deepen my voice a bit, all these, like, how do I fit this caricature of what I've created now? And it does become very strange and very odd, right? And yeah, I'm in, I'm in a place now with my Christian walkthrough where I just, I can't, I think a lot about the scripture where it says, you know, I, I must decrease and he must increase. And then how do you hold that truth while you have a. Massive platform and following because the whole thing, like to be an influencer, it's all about continued growth and getting more people in and being heard more and being seen more and the next thing. And it's like, but I just want to decrease. Like, so it is, it is really interesting.

Curt: 32:58

Yeah, I mean, John the Baptizer, man, he was like the greatest person born of a woman, uh, you know, up until Christ or whatever, whatever the scripture says there. And that was his whole thing. And so, yeah, when you follow that template, when you follow the template of Christ who washed his disciples feet, uh, who spurned, uh, you know, equality with God himself to be humbled to the point of death on a cross. There's zero room in that for self aggrandizement. And I'm not saying that like growing a business is self aggrandizement. I'm just saying like for what I was doing, I couldn't separate it. And I've, I've talked to, I don't know, man, like you're one of at least four or five people I've talked to now who's like, I didn't know you could just like walk away. Like, can you, can you tell me more about that? Because of this almost incompatibility with the way the like Christianity, um, and culture where it's going, because I think social media, internet distraction is one of the enemy's number one tools right now. And so, yes, we got to be in the world to save people from that for Christ. But man, like if you lose your soul in that too, like it's so, it's so messy, man. And for me, I just. I couldn't do it anymore. And it seems like I keep talking to more and more coaches who also are like getting cold feet. And then they're like, I talked to another guy, um, um, Hunter Sprague on the podcast last week. And he has this fitness coaching thing for Christians again, like you and me, he's like, I got to do the thing that matters most. And he's like, bro, I just want to start a roofing company some days. And so it's just like, it's almost untenable. You can hardly get to the balance point when you're in this situation. So this is a, this is fascinating,

Brendan: 34:38

don't know. I don't know. Sometimes it is just like a grass is greener syndrome where it's like, you're not living. Cause I look at my life before and I longed for what I have now. And then now I'm almost like longing for a simplicity that isn't in what I'm doing. So I don't know. There's probably some of that going on, but I think part of it too is just like with these platforms. You know, and the, the censorship and the whole, everything's hate speech. And almost even, even just that, that aspect alone, right. Of being beholden to, uh, Metta and Metta's policies that are changing and how woke everything's getting. And, and then to like, just the influencer culture where once you're an influencer, you kind of get connected with other influencers you start getting a peek behind the curtain of these people, these really fancy, sexy, cool, flashy brands. And you start going. Oh, you're totally dysfunctional. I don't even know if you should be talking about what you're talking about. Um, and you see that over and over and over and over again. And you start going, wait, is this all fake? Is this, is there any actual substance of reality to any of this? Cause it doesn't really seem like it sometimes. And here I am blasting my messages out into the, into this. Woke liberal algorithmic machine trying to be heard so I can support my, it's just, it's really easy to get really existential about all that. Um, right. Cause at the end of the day, like we were saying earlier, I still, I, and you, we still have to provide for our families. So how do you, how do you navigate it? And I think, I think one of the things I would say for sure for the listener is like, I don't Do not make the business the be all end all. It is not going to, you're not going to find what you're looking for. You just won't. I'm much more kind of coming to the mindset that it's like, you need to do your thing and then get out. Like, figure out what you need to do to do something in integrity. Don't sell out on your, on your morals or your convictions, get paid, support your family, and then let go live your life. Don't, don't look for everything through influence, through business, whatever.

Curt: 36:49

and the thing that's annoyingly coming up is also the other counterweight, which is, yeah, but look at all the lives who have been impacted by a random post that just so happened to make them. They joined your group or they joined my group or they joined someone else's group or like me. Like dude, I was basically introduced to Christ through like you and Will posting about him on stories. And so like, well, if nobody's doing that, is this the public square? And I think, I was talking about this in another podcast recently, um, is social media, are screens unique enough that they require unique solutions? Um, because we've never had something like this before, in which case, okay, we really have to dive into this or are they simply mostly bad, uh, mostly distracting. Therefore, we should just do whatever we do with other bad things and cut them off entirely. And so I, I don't know the answer to that,

Brendan: 37:43

Well, I think my thought on that is it takes a lot of discipline to extract the value and the good without getting lost in all the, in all the BS. And I would say the more I've gotten into it, the more I realized that the bulk of social media is complete utter BS. It's a lot of people with, you know, a desire or a dream that they, you know, they start to fantasize about a better life and they start to think, okay, well I can make money through social media. I could be at home, blah, blah, blah. So then, you know, you buy some poorly put together course about how to monetize your gift or whatever. And a lot of people, a lot of people like, listen, a lot of the businesses out there, they shouldn't even be business. It's people clamoring for attention to sell things that nobody needs. And I see this, especially on Twitter right now, where it's just everybody doing formulaic posting, trying to get her to get attention and then funnel people into a poorly put together offer because people are seeking financial freedom. So if there's just so much. I would say if I wasn't an influencer, I think that I could truly say that I wouldn't even want to. I would just delete everything, not have any social media at all. Um, like if you're not on there for business and if you're not on there to create and actually do something hopefully meaningful, what are you doing? Cause the entire thing is set up to, Steal your attention. Take your time. Keep you hooked in. So it's even the more I'm talking about this. I'm like, man, and then there I am on it. Hey, listen to me, right?

Curt: 39:15

Yeah, dude, I, I have experienced that. So from the other side of things, because I'm now. Yeah, four months in. It was almost exactly four months ago that I officially posted my last sort of dad work thing. Um, number one, I did that. I know like you, you got another phone man, which I want to mention for the listener as well. Like if you are on, if you're a coach, if you're on Instagram a lot, Like, you got another phone. You can talk about that in a sec if you want to. Um, but I deleted everything from mine. Um, I went on a couple of times to post so that I could direct attention to this new project. And that's it. Like, I don't have it. I don't look at it. I use texts. com, which is a, um, like a texting platform. It basically Combines all the texts from all the different, um, group chats, including Instagram, including Facebook, including WhatsApp and all that kind of stuff into one. So I don't even have to go on Instagram to read messages now, which saves me a ton of stress. So that's been huge. And in terms of like, is the grass greener? I can't answer that definitively because again, four months seems like a long time to me, but it's really not. Um. God's been so faithful with this business. Um, you know, next month we should bill in a way that we're not dipping into savings anymore. And like, it's been two or three months, which is incredible. Um, and I feel so much more peaceful. I feel so much more present. And I went through a period where I was like, Oh, is this it? Is this all? Like, is this really it? Because I can't be, God doesn't have me just doing podcast editing. And so I like, I made a journal. Like, I've got a journal that I made right here. I got 200 printed and I like, did this other project and I tried to do this podcast and I did this other thing over here. And all of it was me, I think, rebelling against the simplicity that God had for me in this time. And I was like, don't you know who I am? I've got a gift. I have to speak into men's lives. I have to show them how good I am for them. But again, it sort of like was this tumultuousness of spirit. And since, Having a couple of conversations, very convicted. I'm talking to Scott, who was episode two on this podcast. He's like, bro, I don't have time to think about that kind of stuff. Like whether this is exactly what God's got for me. He's like, I'm too busy just building my business and loving God and like loving my family. And I was like, Oh, and so from that moment, I decided right or not, this is my decision. I'm all in on proclaim and it's going to be slow and it's probably gonna be hard. I've never done an agency. I've never managed people before clients, blah, blah, blah. But it has been so much fun to just like wake up every day and go like, I got some client work to do. I'm going to do that for like 50 percent of the week. And then I'm going to like, you know, look for other podcast people and I'm going to do this, but knowing that I just have to like faithfully build over years to get any result with this style of business. Oh my goodness, bro. Like for, for, I'm not far enough. I had to say, do this. Um, but just like my own experience for whatever it's worth for anyone listening. Like if you are thinking about this kind of stuff, it's been really good for me.

Brendan: 42:01

Yeah, I think, I think it's tough, right? Like there's, I guess there's two different ways you can go. Maybe there's more, but the two that come to my mind are, you can put your entire heart, soul and being into a business and like put all of yourself on the line and like almost display all of yourself. Yeah. Which is, it can be like the fruit of that. It can be very rewarding and impactful. Like you were saying, you know, you were on Instagram, you, you came to Christ through, through relationships built through Instagram. And I mean, even my own walk, like so much of it was influenced by the same. So there's, there's definitely, there's definitely fruit there. But with that comes the, the sleepless nights and all the tossing and turning around, like, what am I doing? And when you make it all encompassing, It can be an absolute burden that you're carrying around right where you're, it's like, Oh, this is, this is God's calling site. I need to get it just right. I need to navigate this the perfect way. You know, I need to, Oh, I can't, I can't let let him down. And you know, what if, what if I'm out of integrity and what if this isn't what he wants and you're back and forth and back and forth and you're in this washing machine all the time and it can just be exhausting. Right. And then the flip side is doing something that maybe it's, it's just a job. Yup. Right. So like, okay, what is a business opportunity? How can I add some value? How can I do something, you know, morally good? So don't compromise. Don't sell out. Don't just look for the next buck. But then in that, like maybe it's not, maybe, maybe it's a bit more of a strain to find the meaning when it's not all encompassing. So it's, it's two different paths. And I think honestly, six months, a year from now, I don't even know which one I'm going to be on. Bye. I hear you around the idea of almost it almost feels like it's like having work be in its own category. Like work is work. Work is work. When you make work calling passion purpose, meaning fulfillment on and on and on and on. It's not just work anymore. It becomes your life and you kind of. Everything becomes about that thing all the time. And then you're talking about like, well, how then do you put that aside and show up for your family because you're just, you know what I'm saying?

Curt: 44:17

Yeah, Natalie has called me on that. She's like, Why do you make everything so hard? I'm like, I just, I have to do this. And it's like, well, your business is your ministry is your like emotional state is your whatever. And for some reason it seems like there are, there are some of us who at least in this modern age can put those together for better or worse. Um, and yeah, like who knows what's going to happen. I think there are a lot of people who are maybe less frantic and hectic than we seem to be, who are just

Brendan: 44:43

Maybe.

Curt: 44:44

Yeah, I've got a, I've got a, like, I don't know, man. It's, it's pretty hard to be more chill than us. But, um, I, I've talked to guys in this podcast who are like, yeah, it's amazing what people can do who are just like, they love the Lord. They build businesses and they raise their family in the community. And it's like, well, That's a business in its own category, but the way they do business is still so focused on God and the kingdom of how to bring that to other people. And it's kind of what we're doing online. We try to bring that to people by going right for the kill shot. And that's going to hit some people on the heart like me. And maybe like you along your journey as well, where it's like, Oh bro, nobody's ever spoken truth to me, but maybe more people are like the average Joe down the street who come to your coffee shop and they're like, Oh my goodness, that was an incredible experience. There's just something about that place. What is it? And you're like, Oh, we love Christ. And it's like, Oh, interesting. And then your kids work there and then they start something else. And it's like, What does the local outpouring of this look like? And so I don't know the answer to that, but I know a lot of wise people who are doing or thinking about that. I don't know, man, maybe that's where the future lies.

Brendan: 45:48

I have a question for you. So having switched now from what you were doing prior to what you're doing now, um, do you feel like it's, it's giving you more space and more energy for in person relationship and connection and community?

Curt: 46:00

Well, first of all, um, I'll ask the questions. I'm just kidding. It's been a while since laughing like an idiot. Um, yeah, for sure, man. And like, that was one of the big fruits of this is it was twofold. One, because I was no longer in the like ecosystem where it's all about, Oh, am I doing this right? Do I look good? Like you were saying, Is God happy with the content I'm putting out? And all of that sort of went away, but also for me, and this is just very personal to my business and my personality, I no longer felt a weight of. Man, if this guy just bought my course, like, look, I'll talk to you, but I also have a course. I also have coaching. Like you could just do that and then I'll talk to you once you're through. It really stopped that from being a weight in any conversation. And so now it's like Bible study. I'm just a guy. I don't have this weight of like, Oh, like half of these guys follow me. I've got to make sure I say the right thing. They see me as that what's going on here. And so, yeah, it has been very freeing. To go, how can I build community? Because what if I just put horse blinders on and this is all I had. I'm really grateful for relationships like this while we're, you know, a thousand kilometers away, but day to day, I got to live in my community. So what does that look like? So yeah, it has freed me up and we're not all the way there yet, but it feels

Brendan: 47:17

And I, I ask because with what I've created as well, like it's, it's become largely my sense of community, right? Because I've got 55, 60 guys and I'm talking to guys all the time and I'm an introverted guy and I like to keep to myself in general. So now I can get my social and connection needs met from the comfort of my home, which is cool on one hand, but it's also probably quite limiting on another. So that's another thing to think about too, right? It's like when you put all of yourself into something, then there's your social. It can become your social life, too, where you're kind of living that pod like existence. Our man, Klaus Schwab, wants us to be living, but that's a story for another day.

Curt: 47:56

Oh man. You had to slip that in. Thank you for the, uh, all the tinfoil hats are coming out now. Um, Man, the impact of having the social structure be built into work is very real. If you're doing the coaching thing online, because like you said, you get connected with other people, you sort of trade war stories and then it goes away, right? Like it either goes away naturally because I'm not in it anymore. Um, people sort of forget about you if you're not going to share their next thing on the stories, which like I've, I was reflecting recently, there's been like. Probably like, why haven't we talked recently? Uh, it's like okay interesting curious for me to think about that. Um, but for me i've had to It's almost freed me up to be more curious in relationship because I don't want anything anymore. I need Community I need relationship. And so what i've been doing Number one i've been uh talking to all the people that I have made contact with over the last three years Which again if you guys if you're listening and you're like should be a coach or podcaster Yes, just for the related for the relationships. I made incredible networking relationships over the last three years which are now helping me. Professionally, also personally. But what I'm doing is I'm asking all the people I've connected with just to hop on a call. How are you doing? What, like, what are you doing? Where can I serve you? Um, and then asking them, Hey, do you know anyone who like I might get along with? I've also, I had a call before we jumped on with a guy that I randomly found online. I was like, Hey, uh, I think we're in the same space. Do you want to get on a call? You know, tiny bit of backstory. So he's interested and it's like, dude, this was a great connection. Before this podcast. And now I'm going to have a call with him next week. And he invited me to, you know, look at this event he's hosting. And it's like, that's just cause I reached out. So it doesn't mean that you have to go away. It doesn't mean to stop having these relationships online. Um, but I'm also spending, you know, maybe my wife would argue too much time, uh, but more time at the coffee shop with buddies, going for walks with buddies, talking to life with buddies locally, and it's like, well, that feels almost better than online stuff because I mean, to just lay it out there real clear Online stuff is like fake and mostly gay. Like, let's just, let's just call a

Brendan: 49:56

I didn't know we could use that word on this podcast until now. I'm very excited.

Curt: 50:00

the, yeah, well, I, I, I just wanted to, we've set up, we've set a precedent. Uh, the internet is fake and gay. And, um, and that's, that's sad because I think even me and even a lot of guys that I know start to take it too seriously. Like, well, this is where everyone is. So it's real. It's like,

Brendan: 50:19

Well, with, with the taking it seriously thing too, I think what can happen as well as like, you can become very inflated around what you created, where you're almost like, you're setting yourself apart from other people. Because of who other people think you are. I think that there are so many traps and pitfalls on that, on that social media influencer path, I would say, you know, like, Hey, maybe, maybe try it out, see, see if you can find peace and manage it well, and, you know, keep your feet on the ground, but understand that there are definitely big, big time risks with it and it's not, you know, it's not, uh, it's not a perfect thing. And it's not, it's likely not going to deliver even all the ways that you need.

Curt: 51:03

Yeah, I think I wish this discussion was around when we were coming up because I think I would have had better expectations because for me the expectations are wrong. Like I'm just going to crush it. I'm going to do this forever. It's going to be perfect forever. And I'm like the man. And so yeah, like do your thing. I hope this was encouraging people because yeah, you can make a sick income doing very little work, uh, changing people's lives and that like, let's not forget that. Um, and here's the other side. So trade carefully. There's ditches on all sides. Um, Do you have anything you're thinking about business wise other than this? Did you ever try anything? Did you have ideas that maybe we can share with the guys? And again, you know, I didn't necessarily ask you to prep this, so it doesn't matter if you have them or not, but what, what other ideas have you been thinking about,

Brendan: 51:44

Well, see, the thing is, is that for 10 years I kind of was floundering in my life because I wanted to do what I'm doing now, so I never really, I don't really have much to fall back on in that regard, if I'm totally honest, because I was working as a landscaper before, right? So I'm like, okay, well, I could fire up a local landscaping business, but I'm like, I don't really know. That's what I want to get back into. The, uh, the landscaping season is quite short up here in Alberta, Canada.

Curt: 52:08

bro? I landscaped for three years in Calgary. So I, I, I feel

Brendan: 52:11

Yeah. And then, um, I have re it's funny cause actually just this last week, it's like the first time in my entire masculine revival history that I was actually looking at jobs online. I was thinking about different businesses I could start and You know, for me, ideally, it would really have to be able to replace mask and revival in terms of the lifestyle. So I really value being at home and I like having control of my time and my schedule and, you know, as well, I think it's non negotiable for me and my family that I don't want my wife working. I want her at home because we're planning on having a big family. That's a whole other conversation about stay at home wives. I'll park that for now. Um, but that's very meaningful for both of us. So I, I dunno, I've been, I've been doing a little bit of research into, you know, what, what's a scalable business you could run from home. I was looking into like subscription boxes is a big thing right now. So what, what could you send to a consumer on a monthly basis and have like, and really either create an experience for them or add value or what could that look like? And then I was thinking too, about just with what I'm doing now with masculine revival, I don't think that my, you know, my daughter or my future kids are going to be able to inherit this. It's, it's very much centered around me, but that, that would be, it's something I've been thinking about. It's like legacy and having my kids being, being able to actually work in a physical business as they get, get older. So I'm not sending them off to some woke corporation, uh, to get their first job 15, 16 years from now. I think it's probably a lot worse than they are right now. So I don't know. Um, it would need to be able to replace what I'm doing now, essentially

Curt: 53:56

You should check out family teams I don't know if you've ever seen what they do, but they're all about this like how to integrate family faith and business And they talk about having like the first business the service business to get Replace your income and then a scale business which is usually online which we kind of already had and then like a legacy business Which is usually like real estate or something like that that that can be inherited And so that that might be something to look at But I'm just I was thinking about you trying to write a resume You Uh, incendiary hate speech. Like, how does that play in corporate America? Um, and also I have this interesting feeling that you could start a subscription box. And as you're thinking about it, you're just like, if I just sent them like pictures of a post that I wrote, and then send them like some weights, they could just be the masculine revival subscription box. And, and just don't go down that path. But I also, I thought about doing this actually like eight years ago. Um, and I was going to start one called, I think, Skills Lodge. I'm about the domain. And the whole point was I was going to go get a, like a masculine skill from an older man. Like how to change a tire, how to, you know, start a fire. And I was gonna package that as a skill in a small little box so like, you know, a little bit of Tinder and a video or something like that. And then send that out to, to increase the masculinity, uh, of people who didn't have those skills. So that's, I haven't thought about that in, in ages, man. So anyway,

Brendan: 55:15

I was, I was actually funny at funny enough. I'll, I'll reveal it here. What I've been thinking about. So I've been thinking about, uh, I looked into it and there's one called Atlas Coffee Company and they send out coffee and I think coffee is pretty played out right now, but tea isn't. So if you can curate tea, send it, send it off on a monthly recurring subscription, have it be really high quality, handcrafted, check all those kind of boxes, organic, whatever, um, that's been interesting. So maybe I'll be starting a subscription t box company at some point here. So go for master landscape, master revival, t box. Let's go.

Curt: 55:55

feminine revival. Indeed. Uh, you, you should start an Instagram account for that right away. Um, yeah, I can't wait to see that. Yeah. My, uh, I gifted my wife something like that before. It was like, she loves flavors. She loves new teas. Uh, and there's, there's like a couple of things like that, but you're right. Coffee is like the big thing. So just be the, uh, the ultra, would you make this like ultra based as well? Or would you just like not even talk about

Brendan: 56:16

Just leave it alone. Yeah.

Curt: 56:19

my, I'd be like, well, I'm just going to sell it to Christians and I'd hate myself six months from now.

Brendan: 56:24

Just, just buy my tea. It's really good tea. I hope you like it. That's it. Yeah.

Curt: 56:30

Man, you're going to need, you're going to need something else to like, get all that energy out of you

Brendan: 56:33

I'm Jerry.

Curt: 56:34

Like, how are you gonna, how are you gonna talk about the conspiracy theories with, uh, with T? Anyway, man, um, I'm feeling pretty full. Thank you for doing this. This has been, uh, really good. And, and I hope, like, one of the only conversations that talks about this kind of stuff from a very real point of view. So, uh, I appreciate you, man. Thank you for being, being here. We're, um, where do people Yeah, we're, we're, oh my goodness, Brent,

Brendan: 56:59

You're asking me where are

Curt: 57:00

Brent is the only person.

Brendan: 57:01

people find me?

Curt: 57:03

No not anymore. See ya.

Brendan: 57:05

Revoked.

Curt: 57:06

Yeah. Yeah. What, what, what are the, the links to your, um, to your masculine revival slash tea company

Brendan: 57:13

Yeah. Uh, at MaskingRemoval on Instagram. You can also look up the MaskingRemoval podcast on Spotify or Apple. Uh, those, those are the best ways to find me.

Curt: 57:23

And also join the men's group if you are a man listening to this and you're like I know business But I don't know marriage and emotional relationships and all that kind of stuff You should join the masculine revival brotherhood because I would have told you to join dad work. Um, But it doesn't exist anymore. So, uh, this is the best thing on the market now. Anyway, man, uh, thanks for this I appreciate you man. Peace