Michelle MacDonald (00:01):

Last episode, Abby Langer shared her views on how social media influencers are wrongly influencing our perspectives on what we can and can't eat often causing anxiety around foods like sugar. She encourages you to find the right balance because no food is absolutely off lip. It's a hundred percent of the time. Today I want to explore how decision-making around nutrition mirrors financial planning. You need strategies to manage hunger. Abby's going to unpack how emotional triggers, diet plans and societal pressures around food can complicate healthy eating. The stage for deeper discussions on mental pots, diets, fasting trends, and the responsible use of medications like Ozempic.

(00:53):

Yeah, I tell my clients, and this is how I operate. It's like you can have anything you want, but if you have this goal that you want to achieve, like I'm doing a photo shoot and I want to see my abs for example, then you have to decide because at the end of the day, we're talking calories here. If you have that and you're hungry because doesn't, there's no fiber and it's not filling you up or whatever, then you're going to have to be prepared to manage that hunger so that you can execute the calorie deficit that you need to execute in order to have this outcome that you want. So it's just a conversation you have to have with yourself and have strategies in place to navigate that hunger, right?

(01:34):

And so it's learning to have less emotion around your decision making and just, I often akin to financial planning. This is the money you got. You want to buy the house, well, this is how it has to go. And so you're making decisions like, oh, if you want to buy the Chanel purse on sale, not that Chanel ever goes on sale, but let's say it was on sale, you can buy it, but then you might not be able to go on that holiday on the weekend. It's just you got to make decisions and be okay with it. And if you make a mistake, you make a mistake and you learn, okay, I thought that would work and I wasn't able to do that thing that I needed to do. So next time I'll have a different, maybe whenever it is. So yes, when we're just talking about increasing your awareness and increasing your strategies, I like to teach my clients this idea of having have strategies, be resourceful, have options.

(02:27):

The more options you have, the more relaxed you are that you have options versus feeling like you have your back against a wall. And again, you go into your limbic brain like, oh my God, I got to make this choice. And you're just reacting. Reacting. The more fun you can have, I have so much fun. It's like, wow, you don't have to follow this dumb meal plan. Like okay, for seven days you're going to have peanut butter and apple, I hate that, have peanut butter and apple and then you're going to have celery sticks and whatever. There's a lot of peanut butter involved in things. So we've got the difference between physical hunger and emotional hunger. The pause we've already covered that it is okay to emotionally eat. I encourage, have fun with it, acknowledge it, and really be conscious of any kind of shame and guilt around it because that's just not going to lead to empowerment. Ultimately, you're cutting your own legs from underneath it. You can't beat a horse over the finish line. How does somebody know that they have a problem that needs to be addressed? How would somebody without working with a nutritionist for example, how would you know? You know what, I need to see somebody before I embark on a transformation journey. For example,

Abby Langer (03:37):

If you have any kind of history of an eating disorder, even eating disorders in your family because they are genetic to some degree, I think you should be really careful and look for things like being obsessed with food, thinking about food all the time, having a need to weigh yourself multiple times a day. Body checking yourself, which means looking in the mirror every five minutes to whatever, an hour, whatever, multiple times a day to see if your body has changed. That's a huge sign of an eating disorder or a disordered body dysmorphic disorder. Also, not being able to eat without guilt or shame or without a meal plan or a specific diet program or whatnot. Not trusting yourself, of course, any sort of major restriction or making up for what you ate the day before by just starving yourself or making yourself vomit or purging in any way.

(04:50):

Exercise, believe me as well, all of these things are very much red flags. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're not sure, I would still not sure is sort of yes, please just get help or just like there's no harm in speaking to someone just to make sure that you're okay or just to get some guidance. A lot of people don't want to, and I was this way. I mean, I didn't want to deal with my behaviors. I was like, no, I'm okay. No, no, this is normal because we've normalized. This was back in the nineties, but we've normalized even more so now these behaviors. And so people don't think they have a problem, but actually they do if they engage in these behaviors. And a lot of 'em, what I eat in a day and all the influence, whatever you see on social media, a lot of it is really disordered.

(05:54):

Actually, I just got an interview request from a journalist who wants to talk to me about this 10 mile thing where talkers, they walk 10 miles in a day. Who the fuck does that? Do you know how long that would take? And it's so disordered, but things like this are normalized. Oh, it's just a trend. It's not a trend. That's crazy. That's like, no, the journalist asking me questions, how do you prepare for a 10 mile walk? And I'm like, can we talk about the fact that nobody should be walking 10 miles every single? This is the thinking behind it is absurd. It's awful. So these sort of disordered behaviors are so normalized, and so it is like if you have an idea that maybe what you're doing is a little bit off, I would definitely speak to a professional to get it checked out.

Michelle MacDonald (06:55):

So tell us about the app way. I just sent it to a bunch of my coaches that I said, let's check this out. This could be a really great tool. I love tech, right? There's tech out there and there's an app I'm all

Abby Langer (07:07):

In. Yeah. So way is an intuitive eating app that really takes you through your relationship with food and teaches you exactly what I've been talking about. Now, when the CEO of WAY approached me to work with them, I didn't know a lot about the app and I looked at it, I went actually through the whole thing and I was like, this is everything I teach people. It's such a good fit.

Michelle MacDonald (07:32):

You're getting replaced by ai. Oh no. Well,

Abby Langer (07:34):

Yeah, totally. I'm thinking of offering it as part of my course because it's like everything. It takes people through their emotional eating, it takes people through their body checking and all of the things that impact a person's relationship with food and then teaches them how to be more intuitive about their eating. And I think it's amazing because with so many apps out there that are counting and tracking and really making weight the focus, making weight the primary outcome, this is a breath of fresh air. And it's really, I think what a lot of people need to heal their relationship with food and eating.

Michelle MacDonald (08:19):

And they can find that app where

Abby Langer (08:22):

On the Apple store, it's unfortunately not available for Android.

Michelle MacDonald (08:26):

Yes. So it's new

Abby Langer (08:27):

By middle on the Apple store.

Michelle MacDonald (08:29):

Okay.

Abby Langer (08:30):

It's called way, yeah.

Michelle MacDonald (08:30):

WAY. Yes. I guess it's like a spoof off of whey. W-E-I-G-H. Oh,

Abby Langer (08:40):

I would assume. I know. I don't dunno the answer that question, but yeah, people always ask me, they've asked me for years, what app should I use? And I've never had an answer for them, and this is the one app I

Michelle MacDonald (08:53):

Recommend. I'm definitely going to pass it along to a lot of other coaches as well because we all need help and apps are great. I use apps for period tracking and

Abby Langer (09:06):

For

Michelle MacDonald (09:07):

Exactly

Abby Langer (09:07):

HRV. If you use the Code Langer 20, you'll get 20% off your way purchase and it's just like a good adjunct. It's great if you're following a program that's intuitive eating or you are receiving the counseling services or whatnot, it's a great way to just tack on some value add, right?

Michelle MacDonald (09:35):

Yeah. And anything that is building up your own self-efficacy that you can do this on your own at some point. I mean, if you consider something that leverages an app to be self-directed, which I certainly do, then it's great practice to start rolling that out, right? Yeah. Okay, so now we're going to move to the next part of the interview where I want to talk about two more things. I don't know if we're going to be able to squeeze these in, but this is dear to my heart. So I first found you through our mutual friend and the endocet, and I get my underwear knots with the whole menopause shilling that I see. And I'm always like, there's no special menopause diet. The body's the body. So you treat the individual body. And so let's dive into what we're seeing right now with these special diets that are aimed at menopausal women.

(10:37):

And I'd really love to talk about the Galveston diet and any other form of intermittent fasting because that's what we tend to see the most of is and keto. And so I'd love to talk about that because here we're talking about many things. One, we've got experts. We see this a lot in the menopause space, especially female experts. They are experts like they're doctors or whatever, but they're leveraging for quality science or they're quoting science where the science actually doesn't say it or they're using observational studies. We're seeing now a lot right now with dementia, they're really leveraging observational studies to promote whatever their narrative is. So I'd like to dive into there, and you have a whole piece on fasting itself, and it's just another tool in the toolkit. It's no better than other forms of diet. It's all about calorie restriction. So I'd love to just talk about that piece.

Abby Langer (11:40):

Yeah, this is a great topic because I feel like menopausal women have a target. We have a target on our backs now, and we're being used to line people's pockets because our bodies are changing. We may be anxious about these changes. There's not a lot of information that historically about menopause. We don't learn a lot about it. And honestly, I've been in menopause for two years and I remember the day I looked in the mirror and I was like, what the fuck happened to my waist? Where did it go? Because it's just the normal sort of thickening of your midsection because it's fat and redistribution and it's like the feeling is it's almost like you're warning your old body, but it's scary and confusing and all of that stuff. And I'm feeling that, and I know the science, so I know that women are feeling this, but that doesn't mean that you should be taken advantage of by opportunistic people who are leveraging their credential in order to sell you shit.

(12:53):

Now, a lot of these diets, you're completely right, Michelle. There's no menopause diet. Let's get that straight. And the promises that we can have a old body back or be younger for longer, youthful and all this stuff, it's like all shit. Because when you look at these diets, the Galveston diet are fucking Mindy pelt. She's like, it just makes me crazy. I'm getting so worked out because it really is so opportunistic. It's like predatory. When you look at these diets, it's water fasting and they're made to seem like they're the only tool that will help menopausal women lose weight. If you're in menopause and you don't do this, you'll never lose weight. That's bullshit.

Michelle MacDonald (13:47):

But

Abby Langer (13:47):

If you look at them, they're all low carb, low calorie. Of course. Of course. And I did a huge review of the Galveston diet on my site. I actually took the meal plans and went through them. Mary Claire Haber, the author, did not like my review at all. She posted about it and got all upset, but

Michelle MacDonald (14:14):

But how can you refute the fact that the science that's quoted isn't good science?

Abby Langer (14:20):

Yeah, because a lot of people are listening to her anyways because the lay person doesn't know how to read science or they are having their emotions played with. And this is the thing about all of these people who sell a narrative and sell pseudoscience garbage bullshit is that they use the oldest trick in the book, which is playing on people's emotions. Intellectually, we may know something completely different, but when it comes to our emotions, we are so vulnerable and willing to spend our money on whatever that these people are saying is going to make our lives better. And it's problematic. So for menopausal women, really that is part of my course. I want you to understand what's happening with your body, why it's normal. Yes, absolutely. Some women have a very hard time with menopause physically, and that's awful. But to understand what is evidence-based and what is not what you can do to have an effect on your weight and getting someone to help you with that where it's not just like a diet book or a starvation diet, but somebody who can really delve into what's been going on with you that's so valuable.

(15:54):

And also people like Amanda Thib, Jennifer Gunter, those people are so reputable and they tell the truth about midlife women in midlife, anything that seems sensational and talks about women's bodies through a patriarchal lens, get your body back as if we should be young and fresh and thin forever for what? That is a huge red flag. And that is using emotion and fear to line their pockets.

Michelle MacDonald (16:36):

And obviously too, the red flag of just look at the science. And I don't think we often say the lay person, and I've been guilty of that too. The lay person doesn't understand how to decipher the science, but I think there's some obvious red flags that anyone can understand. But it really rankles me when somebody, I'll post something about a study and somebody will DM me and say, well, say in your lane, I watch you for your motivation, not for your science. It's like I don't need to be a doctor to be able to point you towards research and say, this is great research. This is a high level RCT, or this is a meta analysis of high level RCT and this piece. And you are disempowering yourself too if you believe that narrative. Just because somebody is a doctor doesn't mean that they own the rights to decipher the literature, especially when they're going against, they've got that one special thing that none of the other governing bodies are saying. Yeah, we agree with that. This would be major national news if it was true that in all the governing bodies would say, Hey, yeah, we've got to do this protocol because it's going to actually save lives. And there's deep, deep, robust evidence supporting it.

Abby Langer (17:52):

Yeah. It's also people have to realize, I get a lot of those emails as well or dms and they're like, but this person's a doctor. I don't give a shit. Dr. Oz, Dr. Gundry, Dr. Whatever. And Mindy Peltz isn't a medical doctor, she's a chiropractor. She calls herself a doctor. A lot of people will misuse their credential and you can't just automatically believe that. Right. And it's disappointing, but yeah,

Michelle MacDonald (18:22):

We have to check our biases for sure. We will follow one person if it aligns with our own biases and then we'll dis another person.

Abby Langer (18:30):

Well, yeah, it's very human. You got to really try it as much as we can to watch her own biases.

Michelle MacDonald (18:35):

And I love that you pointed out, I always send people to Gunter as well, and I say subscribe to her substack. It's not incredibly expensive at all. So that's not a paywall barrier, and I hate when people use that. She gives it so much free information. But if you want to deep dive, go and read the blog. The blog is amazing. Okay, so who would if F be good for? I dabbled with if my husband, way back when we were first, I was first into bodybuilding and we would kind of do an IF on one day a week and we really enjoyed it and we had fun. And then ultimately I think three years later I'm like, ah, you know what? I don't need to do it and it's not as fun anymore, but who would it be good for?

Abby Langer (19:20):

Intermittent fasting is fine for people who want to lose weight. There's a lot of claims made around intermittent fasting that really don't pan out in the science specifically the longevity claim that's been done on animals, but not on humans. It wouldn't be not eating because you think you're going to live longer because why the fuck would you do that? You're making yourself miserable, so whatever life you have left, but it is just another tool in the calorie cutting toolbox. And I don't think I've ever actually recommended intermittent fasting for anyone. What I do say is if you are the type of person who doesn't like to eat in the morning and you don't overcompensate by overeating later on in the day, then continue to do that. And if you want to stop eating by eight o'clock, like that's your typical routine, don't start changing it unless it negatively affects you, but it certainly doesn't have any sort of magical powers.

(20:27):

If you have a history of an eating disorder or disordered eating or type one diabetes, that is a total hard stop. No way to go for intermittent fasting. But I say to people, try an eight in 16 if they want. And certainly if someone comes to me as a dietician for counseling and they're already on that regimen, I support them. I wouldn't support an eating window that is smaller than eight hours just because I don't think it's necessary and I don't think it has any benefits, and I certainly don't recommend water fasting or that's just not beneficial. Fasting for days, you don't get a fucking gold medal. It's not a flex to say that you haven't eaten for three days and that's not okay. There's no

Michelle MacDonald (21:17):

Research. Yeah, so you're saying there's no robust research that pans out supporting real longevity benefits for

Abby Langer (21:25):

No water fasting or any kind of benefits really. There's one study that talks about the benefits of water fasting, but then it wasn't really remarkable and there's another study saying it didn't do anything.

Michelle MacDonald (21:39):

It's like didn't anything.

Abby Langer (21:40):

It's controversial

Michelle MacDonald (21:41):

And

Abby Langer (21:42):

I really think it's disordered, honestly, not just things on end. That's not something that I ethically can

Michelle MacDonald (21:49):

Support. Yeah. Okay. So when we think about metabolic switching and if for disease prevention, is there any place where that could have a context?

Abby Langer (22:00):

I think when people intermittent fast, they frequently lose weight, and it's hard to know whether they're, any kind of benefits we see in terms of disease risk are because of weight loss versus anything else. So metabolic switching the research, I mean, I found that it's really not very conclusive in terms of health benefits. I don't know if there's a new study that you have found that indicates otherwise, but yeah,

Michelle MacDonald (22:37):

I'm assuming that we would need to have a study then if we were going to go to really targeting, if there were benefits, we would have to be looking at a cohort that was fairly extensive and for a period of time in which there was no weight loss. And if you could see these benefits without any weight loss, and then you would go, oh, well this actually does, maybe there'd be another thing that you'd have to look at. But taking weight loss out of it where we definitely know that you have improved blood triglycerides potentially, or improved insulin sensitivity potentially, that if we remove that weight loss, then we're looking at those benefits. Is

Abby Langer (23:14):

That

Michelle MacDonald (23:14):

What you would

Abby Langer (23:15):

Yeah, exactly. It's exactly what I'm saying there so many, there have been benefits shown, increased glucose sensitivity, decreased insulin levels, all of the things obviously improved cardiovascular risk that have been associated with intermittent fasting, but we don't know if it's just because the person lost weight, and it's because so many of these outcomes are associated with weight loss,

Michelle MacDonald (23:45):

Which we know that. Yeah,

(23:49):

So I guess the takeaway is if you are tempted to believe in a special menopause diet because your favorite influencer or doctor or whatever is talking about it, that should actually be a red flag. If you are a big fan of if, and you want to read more about this, they can go to your blog. I found it, actually, you know how I found that it, because I was reading another blog by Jen Gunter and she said, Hey, if you want to hear more about if F or the Galston diet, go and read my friend Amy Langer's blah. And so the takeaways would be, and also read your review. You have a great review on the Galveston diet and clearly showing you have links to the research that was quoted, what the research actually said and why there's a problem with that. That's misleading information. And if you just think, oh, that's a doctor, she's got my back. And then you read this, you can clearly see without being a doctor yourself that no, the research doesn't really say that. The research says it's inconclusive or you can't even pope from that research what was said. Yeah, okay, maybe I'll get some flag for that. But it's so important that we talk about this openly and it's just like, Hey, don't argue with me. Just argue with the science.

(25:06):

We've really got to stop leaning so heavily on our emotions and making it a flag of activism to rally around these causes because we're a woman and because we're in menopause and ignore the science, that is the worst thing that

Abby Langer (25:26):

We can do about your feelings.

Michelle MacDonald (25:27):

Yeah, I feel like we're jumping off of, we're all being encouraged to jump off this ledge of ignorance and it's like, no, I'm a woman and I am intelligent and I have the efficacy to actually look at this stuff and say, Hey, that doesn't make sense.

(25:42):

Okay. One other thing I'd love to dive into, if it's okay with you, is the ozempic and weight loss thing. We started to get it a couple of years ago, clients being on ozempic and what is this thing? And oh, okay, this is what it is, and should this person be on it or not? I mean we can't prescribe it, but try to understand what this new thing was that we were seeing land on our desk. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And I know you say the research shows that it's very effective for addressing obesity, and however, again, it's not that magic bullet that can exist in isolation. We've got to look at the whole picture. We've also got to address this economic issue and look at some of these compounded imitations of ozempic that are a better price point for people, but have their own complications. So

Abby Langer (26:40):

Hit us with your knowledge. First of all, don't buy compounded ozempic or GLP one agonists. Just don't do it. They're not regulated. Please do not do it. That is a huge risk in terms of GLP one agonists like Ozempic will go be like all of those as I'm a dietician who supports intentional weight loss, and I do support the use of these medications. As I said, I recently posted on my Instagram about that Oprah special, and I said, I think these medications are going to save lives. Absolutely. They're going to prolong lives. And finally, these, some people who have struggled with their weight for years and years and years finally have a tool that is effective for them because not everybody can eat less and move more. That is such outdated advice, and it's really fucking offensive actually, because it just minimizes the complexity of weight and eating and relationship with food.

(27:44):

These medications are effective as long as you take them, but the research shows that many people who when they go off them, many people when they go off them will gain at least some if not all of the weight back. So they need to be a long-term solution. And for some people that is fine. However, for people who can't afford them, this is a problem. And there is a huge systemic issue with the price of drugs and the fact that the people who are going to need these medications the most are going to be the least likely to be able to afford them. I do not support the use of GLP one agonist medications for vanity weight loss. If you are using it to fit into a pair of jeans, you want to lose the last five pounds, you're using it because you have a wedding and you want to look great, forget it.

(28:43):

I don't think that's ethical. I don't think it's right. It's contributing, likely contributing to the shortage of these medications for people who really need them, especially for diabetics. And it's not smart. You're going to gain the weight right back. And why are you putting medication into your body? You don't need, I also think that there's side effects to these medications that at least in the Oprah special, but perhaps in real life these side effects are lost over these medications can cause pancreatitis. They can cause intractable vomiting, they can cause a lot of thing muscle loss. So you really need to be careful, and I hear that it's a dosage issue. If you're going to take the medications, make sure that you get them from a licensed physician who's ethical and who knows how to dose them properly. Because if you take too much of them, I believe that the side effects will be worse. And obviously, like you said, Michelle, you can't just take these medications and then ignore your diet and your activity level. It has to be like a three-pronged approach, the medication, diet and activity level. And you know what? They won't take away your issues with food either. So if you need counseling around food issues, you're still going to need that after you take ozempic. Right.

Michelle MacDonald (30:08):

Great. So this leads me to the million dollar question. What advice do you have for people that have successfully lost weight with ozempic, but they want to wean themselves off it? So what are the other things that should go ideally hand in hand with medications for sustainable health? So you must have clients that needing to use it, and what are the things that you teach them?

Abby Langer (30:39):

Yeah, so definitely a high fiber diet with tons of plants we know.

Michelle MacDonald (30:44):

Say that again.

Abby Langer (30:46):

High fiber fiber fiber's, not sexy, but it's like the best wing, high fiber diet with lots of plants. Lean protein, build your diet around plants and protein and then add the carbs in after. Do not avoid carbs altogether. Absolutely. I would say watch your intake of alcohol. It's like women drink too much, and I am a staunch believer in cutting that down.

Michelle MacDonald (31:16):

Oh, I

Abby Langer (31:17):

Didn't know that. I mean, women are dying and getting sick in unprecedented rates from alcohol related diseases. Oh, really? Yes. Is that a new number? And it's out of control. So a hundred percent dial down the booze as much as you can. It has nothing. It doesn't contribute to anything. No, red wine doesn't really help your heart. Come on, let's be serious. Be active in a way that you enjoy. Absolutely. And practice stress relief and work on your issues with food. If you want to go off these medications, like I said before, the food, all of that relationship with food, if it's negative, it's going to come back if it wasn't present already when you were taking it ozempic. So clean out your closet, go to therapy, talk to a dietician, make sure you're monitored and really make it into a holistic approach in terms of going off that medication because you're going to need that holistic approach because it's just going to, otherwise the weight will most likely come back on.

Michelle MacDonald (32:39):

So basically the same tools that you would be coaching to any other person really. Okay. I don't know if you can answer this question or not. I don't know a lot about ozempic other than it is a very useful, it suppresses your appetite. It is a very, very useful drug to address obesity. So can you wean yourself off of it by, do the doctors titrate down the dose or is it kind of a cold Turkey or what

Abby Langer (33:09):

Does that

Michelle MacDonald (33:09):

Process look like? I

Abby Langer (33:10):

Actually don't. Oh, you don't know. Okay. Not, but I would believe that you would titrate down the dose

Michelle MacDonald (33:17):

And then I would assume that if somebody was going through this and they had that history of obesity, they had some successful weight loss, that they should probably continue to work with a dietician. Absolutely. In case they had some kind of a like, oh, okay, that's not working. My appetite, my urge to eat is too high and I need to go back on it.

Abby Langer (33:42):

These medications do for most people, take away all of that food noise. And some people just biologically have that. We never really knew that. We never really understood how some people could be so different in terms of weight and eating habits, why some people just never got full. Why Some people just always were thinking about food. It isn't a biological thing often it's sometimes not emotional. And so some people are just wired differently. And for those people, these medications are a lifesaver and a life changer. But the food noise does come back once you are off that. So that's an expectation that people need to have if working with a therapist can help absolutely for that, but just manage your expectations that life is not going to be the same off of ozempic as it was when you were on it.

Michelle MacDonald (34:44):

Okay. And is it true to say that there are some people that are obese for whom they have a lot of this kind of food noise, but there are other people that are obese that don't have that food noise? So I mean, you're not going to really know until you're at the other side of the journey, I would assume. And then if you're the person that does have that food noise, then it's okay to continue to be on ozempic.

Abby Langer (35:12):

Yeah, ozempic, I mean

Michelle MacDonald (35:14):

With your doctor's consent.

Abby Langer (35:15):

Yeah. It's a long-term thing as we know it now. Ozempic is sort of like a lifetime medication for many people, and when people who grew up with that food noise will know, they know who they're, the other people who are obese and don't have that food noise may need to employ some sort of therapy to understand around what is going on around their eating habits. But these people know who they are in terms of food noise. If they've never been able to get rid of it and Ozempic gets rid of it, then you should probably stay on the ozempic as long as you can.

Michelle MacDonald (36:00):

So I know this is a side tangent and I just wanted to be a short one, but I'm thinking of course, I'm like, well, if there's food noise, and what about other addictive behaviors that that, is there some interesting spinoffs for alcoholism or other addictions from theism? Yes. I

Abby Langer (36:17):

Believe the medications do reduce the addictive, I don't even know how to say this. They're effective, I believe with addiction or in some way that has been studied. I don't want to say anything, but I believe they take away that urge.

Michelle MacDonald (36:42):

Wow, that's very interesting.

Abby Langer (36:43):

It's amazing. It's so amazing, and I'm so glad that we have more options. I think when people hear, I'm a dietician, they believe that I'm not going to be supportive of these medications or with weight loss surgery, but I do support them. Absolutely. Because there's a lot of people who need them to live their best lives, so why would I not support that?

Michelle MacDonald (37:08):

It's living in the nuances and you can criticize something and still say it's a great idea, but you can still have criticisms of it. Absolutely. And that's really hard for people. I mean, I know Dr. Jet is often criticized for being anti MHT, and she's absolutely not. She's anti it being used as a silver bullet for everything under the sun,

(37:29):

And that's the issue. I guess one last question for you is, and it's around getting more plant-based foods into your diet. I know you have a great blog article on, what is it called? You Are What You Eat, which was that documentary done off of the Stanford experiment with the 22 twins. And we don't have to unpack that, but guys, if you're interested and you're alarmed again with these Netflix documentary, go and read Abby's review of it, but how do we get, this is a problem I have as a coach trying to get my gals to have more plant-based fiber in their diet. I've got clients at 10 grams of fiber or 12 grams of fiber.

Abby Langer (38:14):

Oh

Michelle MacDonald (38:15):

Yeah. And yeah, it's just like, come on. Can we get more high fiber foods into your diet here? How do you get that into your client's diet? We know it's important.

Abby Langer (38:25):

So again, build your meals around plants. So start with your vegetables at least once or twice a day to large handfuls. I also encourage people to add between half a cup and a cup of beans or lentils. Several tons

Michelle MacDonald (38:45):

Legumes. Yeah.

Abby Langer (38:46):

Yeah. They're

Michelle MacDonald (38:47):

So high

Abby Langer (38:47):

Fiber

Michelle MacDonald (38:48):

Power hoses

Abby Langer (38:49):

Amazing, but people are afraid of them because there's so many charlatans, if you will, out there saying, oh, lectins are turbo and these blah, blah, blah. These are among really the most healthful foods in the world and the first cultivated crop, we'd all be dead by now. So if they were bad for us, those are really Now

Michelle MacDonald (39:11):

There is the gas issue. So I usually tell my clients, start with lentils and chickpeas or use digest and smart with a small amount and then titrate up.

Abby Langer (39:20):

And you can always use beo, right, which digests raffinose and it's effective as well. Yeah.

Michelle MacDonald (39:27):

So beo is a, you can get that. I know I used to get that in health food stores, it's like drops like Stevie almost. You just drop it in and you don't eat a lot and it really helps with the digestion.

Abby Langer (39:39):

But if you're going to increase your fiber, do it slowly because slowly a shock to your digestive system. Not in an awful way, but just it needs some time to adjust and always make sure that you drink enough water, otherwise it'll all become a brick in there and we'll need to stick it dynamite to unclog you.

Michelle MacDonald (40:02):

Yeah. Well, you've got the complexity of the gut biome when you're going to start changing what you're feeding, what you're fertilizing, that gut biome with it. You just can't go and dump a whole bunch of fertilizer and you've got to slowly cultivate that shift in the biome.

Abby Langer (40:16):

But I want to also add that when people eat gas producing foods like legumes and they get bloated, that's your gut in a lot of situations. Not listen, if you have bloody diarrhea or massive cramping or really concerning symptoms, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about if you eat gas producing foods and you get a little gassy and you get bloated, that's actually a good thing. That shows that your gut microbiome, your microbiota, having a party in there fermenting all of that fiber,

Michelle MacDonald (40:50):

All those short sheet fatty

Abby Langer (40:51):

Acids want to have a party. We want to have. Right.

Michelle MacDonald (40:55):

Okay. I didn't think about it like

Abby Langer (40:56):

That. So if it doesn't really affect your life all that much and it's just a little bit of bloating, okay, not all bloating is bad because we're made to think that a lot of bloating is bad. Again,

Michelle MacDonald (41:12):

Social

Abby Langer (41:13):

Media. Yeah,

Michelle MacDonald (41:13):

It's true.

Abby Langer (41:14):

A lot of it is actually quite good. And I did write a piece on this on my site, on my site as well, and I do outline the red flags that you should look at if your bloating is concerning, is concerning. Okay. What's the name of that article? I don't know. I forgot. If you enter gas or something, you'll see it. Or Beans. If you enter bloating onto my site in the little spy glass that's on the right hand side of my site, it'll pop up.

Michelle MacDonald (41:44):

Okay. So I'm going to assume that gas and bloating with healthy bowel movements is probably a good thing. And gas and bloating with cramping and constipation is something that find what's

Abby Langer (41:55):

Going on bloated. If it doesn't go down, if it's uncomfortable, there are red flags around that. Absolutely. But if it's just transient bloating, it's probably fine.

Michelle MacDonald (42:10):

Alright. Is there anything happening in 2024 in the nutrition space that excites you other than that new app, or is that it?

Abby Langer (42:19):

Let me think. I mean, looking forward to increasing the visibility of menopause and normalizing it for women and really making women feel as though they're part of a community instead of it being stigmatized. It has been for so long. That's what I'm excited about. And how is that going to happen? We just need to keep on plugging. We just need to keep on putting that good information out there and we need to continue to call out people who are predatory and are not following the science and just putting out good information, so women in information that is broken down so it's easy to understand and really evidence-based and people are catching on there,

Michelle MacDonald (43:19):

It'll happen. I agree. Yeah, I agree. And I think I said it to Amanda, I'm like, we've got to make the big levers, the lifestyle levers, fun and sexy and get it out of that arena of really negative mudslinging. If you don't follow this protocol, you, you're not part of the cool

Abby Langer (43:42):

Tribe. Exactly.

Michelle MacDonald (43:47):

I've been in menopause, full menopause for a little over a year now, and everything age related. I've been excited about getting older my whole life, and my mom thought I was crazy, but I'm like, I want to get old. That's where everything happens when you're older. And I love it. I mean, yeah, my skin's getting wrinkly for sure. My nails are changing, they break a little more off. My nails are changing, mine are. And so things like that, but I love it. I feel great. My body still, my body and my brain is still my brain, I think more clearly than ever before in all of that. And I know my journey's, not everybody's journey, but I think there has to be a narrative out there that embraces getting older and being female. I think men have a lot of great positive role models that like the old charismatic guy and the old dog. And for gals,

Abby Langer (44:42):

We really lack that. Those same role models. You're not in childbearing of childbearing age. We have typically or historically been

Michelle MacDonald (44:51):

Invisible.

Abby Langer (44:53):

And I'm not into that. I love watching

Michelle MacDonald (44:57):

Meryl Stre. Did you see her in a laundromat?

Abby Langer (45:00):

No.

Michelle MacDonald (45:02):

Yeah, so I am not sure how old she is, but I think she's in her late seventies or something like that. I think she's a little bit older than my mom, and I'm watching her rock this whole role. And I mean, it's just like, wow. She is, it's wonderful. And I love Meryl Streep, and she's just a beautiful example of being in her element, still rocking her craft, which involves memorizing a ton of lines and adopting new character and all of that just dominating. And we need

Abby Langer (45:32):

More of that. Yeah, I agree. And we will get more because these celebrities are aging. Unfortunately. Some of them are setting an impossible standard for women, which is the standard we tend to gravitate towards, but I think it's changing and it just takes time. These things take time.

Michelle MacDonald (45:53):

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Abby, for being on the show. I know I've kept you for a long time and I really appreciate all the great information. Thank you.