Michelle MacDonald (00:00):

If you've ever wondered whether 40 grams of protein post workout is overkill or if strength training is worth the sweat, this episode will give you the evidence backed answers.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (00:12):

A lot of women don't lift weights at all, so people say, well, aren't you afraid if women lift these lighter weights? And I said, I'm afraid of women not lifting weights at all. More than anything else,

Michelle MacDonald (00:26):

Welcome back to Stronger by Design, the show where we redefine what aging powerfully looks like. Today I'm joined by one of the world's most respected researchers in the field of muscle metabolism and strength science. Dr. Stuart Phillips. Dr. Phillips leads groundbreaking research at McMaster University on protein synthesis, resistance training, and the aging athlete. He's here today to unpack what women really need to know about building muscle fueling strength and preserving metabolic health, especially through our forties, fifties and beyond. If you've ever wondered whether 40 grams of protein post-workout is overkill or if strength training is worth the sweat, this episode is going to give you the evidenced backed answers. So we're going to start off with the first question. We're going to dive into protein muscle and female metabolism with Dr. Stuart Phillips. What actually happens to muscle mass in women as we age, and how is that process different or similar to men?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (01:33):

Yeah, great question. I've been asked a lot, when does muscle loss start? And I've always looked for a good answer to that question. And I reached out to a good friend colleague of mine, Steven Feld, who's sort of like the grandfather of body composition, and he said, well, we did this study with 40 potassium counting a number of years ago, and just to give everybody a baseline, potassium is an ion that's inside our muscles for the most part, and some of it is radioactive. So if we sit on a bed and we're really still, we can actually count these radioactive counts and it's extraordinarily precise in what it gives you. And they did this in some men and some women of various ages. And actually at about age 30, women start to lose muscle mass and we can sort of talk about why, but probably in activity and everything and age just begins to win.

(02:29):

And it's about 31 in men, which as a man who was definitely north of 31, it kind of hurt. I got to be honest. And then it seems that women, when they enter the menopause, a lot of people talk about an acceleration of muscle loss. And really when you look at the data, it's not accelerated if it's bends at all. It might bend down just a little bit in the early phases of menopause, but it's pretty much age related. So women who get on hormone therapy as an example, don't experience any mitigation of their muscle loss. So it's really about age 30, which sort of speaks to the when do you need to start worrying about sarcopenia. It's probably much earlier than most people think.

Michelle MacDonald (03:17):

Yeah, I know Jen Gunter put up a post recently about menopause takes place on the backdrop of the aging process and it's not linear. We've got those two inflection points for both men and women in the mid forties. You're 44, 45, give or take. And then later on in the sixties, are you saying that sarcopenia does not experience that inflection point in the mid forties?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (03:48):

It does seem to wobble at around age 45, but it does that in men and women. And I don't have a great explanation, although Jen Gunter did point out to me that there is a school of thought that arounds age sort of 44, 45, actually a little bit of the aging process kind of gets turned up and I'm not sure exactly what that would be, but men and women experience that and they see it. And I had another person bring up something interesting to me. I never really thought about it. She was a competitive powerlifter and said, if you look at the powerlifting strength curves, they all wobble around that age. And I said, God, you're right. I've never really looked at that.

Michelle MacDonald (04:25):

You've talked to Jen Thompson about that. I think she's set significant world records in her fifties. I think she did another

Dr. Stuart Phillips (04:32):

Crazy one. And of course there are always people that defy it just to make you the unicorns. Okay, so there's not always, so never say never when it comes to human physiology, but the men experience it too.

Michelle MacDonald (04:45):

So

Dr. Stuart Phillips (04:46):

I mean, most women lose their menstrual cycle between the ages of 45 to 55. That's about 95% of women. And when you look at the decline in that phase of life, there is no real true sort of inflection point or downward trend. It's pretty much age related slide and normal. So I think I'm with Jen Gunter on this, that it's normal aging that's happening at the same time. And as you point out, menopause is not an on off switch. And that unfortunately is what most animal models have. It's an on off switch and everybody goes, oh, look at this. Or there are women who experience early menopause because of surgery or some sort of chemotherapy, and that is a on-off switch, but that's not normal menopause. And so we need to be careful about distinguishing the two.

Michelle MacDonald (05:36):

Yeah, we need to be careful about pulling too much from animal studies, as you said, because it's experienced differently. And then surgically induced early menopause is more that on off switch, and if we're pulling data from those studies, it doesn't necessarily apply to the normal gradual rollercoaster of natural menopause. Let's dive into protein. I know that's one of your big babies. You've been studying this for so long. How much protein should a woman over 40 really be eating? So much conflicting evidence again here, and I know the RDA, actually, I don't know if the RD has changed or not, but I know in established, let's say established circles we're kind of creeping protein up. So you're the expert here. How much should that 40 plus woman be eating if her goal, if her goal, and this is the contextual point, if her goal is she wants to build muscle and lose body fat or just preserve her muscle mass as she's of course doing her resistance training?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (06:43):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the writer's statement to start off is that the RDA is too low. I base that on a number of sort of papers that we've published, but I mean, it was established using a methodology that was really designed to offset a minimal or a deficiency. And so the recognition that intakes above the RDA, which is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, I just haven't changed it. So unfortunately the RDA hasn't changed. I used to think that was sort of a career goal of mine, but

Michelle MacDonald (07:18):

Did change the RD I've given

Dr. Stuart Phillips (07:19):

Up. Yeah, yeah, no, it's not going to happen as if it's sort of chiseled on some tablets somewhere, so it's not going to happen. So we've just pushed back with evidence and I think sort of moving up, it's at least 1.2. I think that's kind of the basal level of buy-in, and that's 50% above the RDA. So there's not a lot of nutrients that I would say, you know what? They're 50% wrong and you need to go higher. But 1.2 is where I think everybody should hopefully be, and then as high as it about 1.6 and in deference to a lot of other people that talk about intakes that are higher than that, I think from the evidence that we and some others have generated that intakes above 1.6 gram per kilo or about 0.7 grams per pound really begin to diminish. So that's the ceiling that I tend to talk to people about and I know people recommend higher. I just think that the evidence to show that it does something for you, particularly from a muscle building standpoint, isn't there.

Michelle MacDonald (08:25):

So did you change your position from your 2011 paper when you were looking at optimal protein intake for athletes?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (08:32):

Yeah. Yeah. I know people don't like that, but that's kind of how science works. We had some ideas at that time about the impact of protein that suggested even higher intakes were beneficial. Subsequent experiments and studies that we've done have just shown us that really that's not the case. So I know everybody calls flip flopping and I'm like, well, that's science, and if you don't trust your own data, who's you going to trust? And everything that we've got sort of says that at about 1.6 it begins to plateau out. Now, it's not that you can't squeeze a little bit more benefit out at intakes that are greater than that, but it's pretty small. And for most kind of mere mortals out there, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Michelle MacDonald (09:18):

Yeah, I think probably two pushbacks are going to be one. Do we have a lot of studies of high level athletes that are doing extreme cutting for shows? And then the other one probably is going to be there is that individual difference. And we're looking at plots. We'll see a cluster of plots, a cluster of data points around what we would be pulling for the average person, but you'll always have those outliers that are really below or really high and is that data that we want to throw away or those instances of people that are hyper responders or hypo responds

Dr. Stuart Phillips (09:54):

For sure. And one of the things that we've probably done that's a bit of a disservice is we've used study level data and means to try and derive this relationship. And I think to your point, when you take individual data points, we can see some examples of people that really do benefit from higher intakes, but I can also see examples of people that at lower intakes appear to be doing just fine. So it's the individual study level I think data or individual patient data, whatever you want to call it, that is probably the data that's going to crack the code on this. And it's still individualized. And so we're getting to the point where those types of recommendations and there's always flexibility, and I'm not so rigid that, but like I said, 1.6 for most folks out there, pretty good, a little bit higher for some extreme athletes. I get it. Or if you're cutting, totally get that too.

Michelle MacDonald (10:51):

And dietary preference, I think that's great for coaches like myself because it gives us that flexibility and we're always looking for the edge adherence when it comes to achieving a physique goal is always going to trump everything else. And if you have somebody that's struggling with protein and well, we can go all the way down to 1.6, then that gives us the flexibility to be more nuanced in our approach to dovetailing someone's macros or diet to their preference because adherence at the end of the day trumps everything. What about the buzz around the 40 grams of post-workout protein? What do you have to say about that? Is that based on strong science or is it misapplied?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (11:34):

So we've contributed to the noise, the argument in this space, and we said for a long time, and I need to get something absolutely crystal clear, everybody says, well, Philips group said you can only digest 20 grams of protein. I'm like, we have never said anything about digestion ever. So you can digest a ton of protein and I mean like a ton, a hundred plus grams, you can digest all of that, no problem at all. You go and eat the 32 ounce T-bone at the Outback Steakhouse, it's all good. It's what you do with the amino acids that come from that protein. That's the key. And from our perspective, and several others did dose response studies where at about 20 to 30 grams it kind of levels off. And this is muscle protein synthesis, so the use of the protein in muscle. And then my good friend, good friend and colleague, Luke Van Loon and Trulin, who was Luke student who I was on Lauren's PhD examination committee, so I know him very well, did a study where they showed that a hundred grams of protein nudged up protein synthesis a little bit more than 25.

(12:47):

And so everybody was like, oh, see a hundred, it's better than 25. And I'm like, yeah, but just remember that's 125 and this is a hundred gram, this is 20. What if they had tested a 40 gram dose? I remember it was in that range, and lo and behold, it was no different than the a hundred. So don't get me wrong, I think that maybe it's a bit higher than the 40 probably for bigger people, definitely they could use more, but for most of what we've got out there, I think that that dose sort of plateaus at close to around 30 to 40 grams. You could digest a ton of protein, can you use it? And the question is, even the trauma and paper shows that it's not like it keeps going up and forever despite the title of the paper that there is no upper limit, not even their own data can show them that. So I think I'm still 40 grams is doing a pretty good job, and most people tend to eat in discrete meals. I know that there are one meal a day people, but for the most part, I think 40 grams per meal occasion would be good.

Michelle MacDonald (13:56):

Perfect. Thanks for clearing that up. And I guess let's go into the last question around protein. What is, in your opinion, the biggest mistakes that women are making when it comes to protein and training?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (14:12):

Probably not eating enough for the most part. I mean, I think that a lot of women believe that they have a good idea of how much and the ones that are dialed in and judicious, no problem. But on average, when we collect diet records from older women in particular or middle aged women, we find that most of them, a lot of them are creeping around the RDA mostly because they prioritize particularly at the first meal. So the breakfast meal of the day, carbohydrates. And they're missing an opportunity. I think that's a patterning meal. And Don Lehman has sort of intimated that this is an important meal, sort of turn on protein synthesis. That should be a protein heavy meal and maybe some of the protein that you're eating at the end of the day should be in the first meal of the day to kickstart protein synthesis and get it going. So I think for the most part, that's the mistake that most women are making. A lot of women have got it dialed in because they've got their diet records, they know what they're doing and everything else like that, but most just not hitting their protein targets because it's the daily intake that matters. That's the big variable and meal servings, but across the day, you should be hitting at least 1.2 or up to 1.6.

Michelle MacDonald (15:37):

Yeah, I think again, it comes back to adherence. And I know working with gals, especially in our improvement season where it's a little bit more loosey goosey, I hear from a lot of my gals, life happens and by the time they get to meal three, they're behind. And so trying to get all that protein in at the end of the day, especially if you're eating a good amount of food, it's like it gets I impossible to do again and again and again. So just when we think about successful habits, dosing it out more frequently throughout the day, so you're getting your fiber in every meal and you're getting some of that protein in every meal, not trying to back load and scramble. That's probably what we're looking at. And I'm a big fan of macros simply because it teaches, is teaches us what's in our food.

(16:26):

And when we think of a protein centric milk I had for breakfast, I had 30 grams of protein today. You know what I had? I had four slices of Ezekiel bread and I made this great, it was french toast. So I've got my eggs, I've got my milk, I've got my little bit of collagen in. My collagen is an incomplete, but it is a source of amino acids and protein, and I stack it up throughout the day with all my other proteins. And so I turn something that could be just carbs, but I craft it in such a way because of macros that I end up hitting my protein.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (17:02):

And you can tell by the way you're talking about it, you enjoyed it too. I mean, I think that's one of the things that we've forgotten a little bit. We focus on nutrition a lot and I'm like, I don't know. For me, eating is an occasion and food is to be enjoyed. So everybody's like, oh, I got to blend all this stuff. And I'm like, that's awesome, but at some point I hope that you sit down and you make a meal and you enjoy making it, you enjoy eating it and maybe you enjoy eating it with somebody else as well. Totally. I think that those are some things I'm like, I think that's really important as a part of life.

Michelle MacDonald (17:36):

Let's dive into strength training. This is another place where you have a ton of expertise and a lot of hot topics circling around the internet. Special social media with heavy one-liners really kind of hyperbolizing what women must do or the muscle's going to fly off their body and you're wasting your time if you don't do this one thing. So what does the science really say about what builds muscle and strength for women over 40? What can we say?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (18:03):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I've recently pushed back on social media against the message that women or anybody to achieve results with strength training have to lift heavy. And I kind of thought that we had got this message straight because we've shown for years now, not just our group, but in several meta-analyses that lifting lighter weights and everybody goes, well, what's heavy and what's light? So the usual prescription is 80% of one rm. That's that eight to 12 rep to fatigue zone is the sweet spot for muscle growth. And our work, and lots of others have shown that actually that zone is really wide up to say 25 reps per set, but it's the perception of outward effort or fatigue if you want, that equalizes those two things. And so when you get and lift to fatigue with a heavier weight or a lighter weight, let's say 30 to 50% of one rm, you get the same muscle growth and everybody says, well, you get stronger when you lift heavier weights.

(19:17):

I'm like, that's because you practice lifting heavier weights. If you want strength, then by all means you should lift heavy stuff. And then a lot of people have sort of jumped on and said, and it's the only way you gain bone mass. And that's not true. It's just not true. And I said it several times and people have said, but, and I'm like, okay, I've got to make a post on that ones clearly, but it's the only way to activate your satellite cells, and that's not true either. So all of this needs to be separated out from it sufficient in that it happens, but it doesn't need to be that way. So I think the data on participation and strength training, it's miserable. So a lot of women don't lift weights at all. So people say, well, aren't you afraid if women lift these lighter weights?

(20:15):

And I said, Aren, I'm afraid of women not lifting weights at all more than anything else. And then within the nuance of the prescription, you can create progressive overload, not always through load, but through more volume, so greater sets, number of frequency per week, et cetera. And you can get results. It may not be at the tip top optimum end, but that doesn't mean you need to lift. Heavy need would mean that if you don't do this, nothing, and that's just not true. So again, we fought this battle with men and gradually the Brad Schoenfeld of the world and other people who said that's not true. They did their own work. And it's like it works and it works in men. So my point is it works in women as well, and we have data to show that. It's not like studies haven't been done in women. So once again, I'm going to

Michelle MacDonald (21:13):

Tease out for the listeners, and again, we probably have some people that don't have a good grounding in training, and then we'll probably have a whole bunch that we're preaching to the choir. They're all about maximizing and optimizing, but there's the spectrum of people that need to get started with better habits if they're going to enjoy the aging process at all. And we want to be respectful of that. And the science says, at least how I'm interpreting it, and you're here to correct me that I actually was just listening to Brad Schoenfeld at the Glute Lab last month. It was

Dr. Stuart Phillips (21:55):

Oh yeah,

Michelle MacDonald (21:56):

Just an absolute legend. Him and Aaron.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (21:58):

Yeah,

Michelle MacDonald (21:59):

Alan Aragon. And it is the different rep ranges. So we're getting away from this. You can only be in the four to five rep range or even in the eight to 12 rep range. And it's like, Hey, actually we can be in all of these rep ranges. The caveat, most of you, most of us are going to be successful. I think it was 30% of what would be our one rep max, whatever that means for the layman. But if you're going less than 30% probably in terms of the ROI, it's not going to be a lot. And then the other piece being you do want to be matching that rep range with your ability to push close to failure. And so we can get into, I don't want to mislead people and think you can lift five pounds for three years on end and see growth, right?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (22:51):

Right. Yeah, there's a limit and probably 30%. So to put it in real numbers, let's say you can lift a hundred pounds, and so the recommendations would be take 80% of that and lift 80 pounds. And most people can lift that and most lifts between eight to 12 times before they go, oh, I can't lift it anymore. And what our work and Brad's work, and even Brent would agree on this as well, Breck, Andera is that light tur loads. As long as you move towards fatigue or failure, then you get the same growth results. Now strength doesn't improve as much, but if we take an unpracticed task, so get everybody to go do something that they're not been practicing, everybody gets a strong, so it's not even strength is the main issue because the muscle growth is there, the benefits are there if you really want to get the last part out of the cloth. If you're a power lifter, don't get me wrong at all. I'm not going to tell anybody who just is going to clean and jerk or snatch or deadlift or bench something once. This is not the way you want to train. But if you're a bodybuilder and if you want physique, and I am not going to use the word tone, but if you want to hold on to some muscle, then lots of loads from a range of as low as 30 to as high as probably 80 to 90 work.

Michelle MacDonald (24:21):

I think it's so good, especially for the 40 plus because we do have, for a lot of people osteoarthritis, we have things happening with the spine, especially the lumbar spine, the cervical spine, and it's great to have a range of reps that you can train in and maximize gains. If we're thinking of progressing a lift for the long term, we don't always have to progress load. And then I'm just going to tease that once more. You said some other important things. There's many ways to progressively overload. I think there's like 10 or at least, right? And I'd love for you to repeat that for the people that are listening, because yes, we want to push ourselves, we want to train hard, but we also want to look at our joint health. For some of us that's going to be more important than for other people and biome, biomechanical issues that certain individuals might have and being safe, especially with things like hip hinges or even squat patternings. Are you pressing through all three corners of the feet? Are you going into your toe? Are you practicing safe lifting?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (25:28):

Yeah, I think so. You hit on a point that I think this sort of crystallizes on, and the idea is to present a menu of options to people who maybe they don't lift, and it's like they've watched something on Instagram and someone says, you need to do it this way. And you think, oh, well actually first I don't really like lifting weights. I don't want to go to the gym, and actually I don't want to do that at all. And I'm like, okay, well maybe you could try something lighter. And it's the entry level. How do we get people into the gym? How do we get people to enjoy this? How do we get people to enjoy success so that there's a mastery and they feel that there's a self-efficacy to go and do it by themselves, et cetera, et cetera. All the things that coaches know when they're talking to people about how to establish habits and patterns, and it doesn't have to be load, even though it says overload, it could be more volume and you can progress by doing more sets, or you could take it from one day a week to two days a week, or you could change the exercise or you could go from a machine to a free weight and all of these things change recruitment patterns and provide a novel stimulus.

(26:40):

And that's really what keeps the progression going. Something

Michelle MacDonald (26:43):

As you both physical and mental, right?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (26:46):

Right. And as soon as you can lift 10 pounds and you're like, oh, well I can do this. A lot of times, well now lift 15, and so challenge yourself that way or lift the 10 pounds, but do it twice. So put it down, don't rest for three to four minutes, rests for 30 seconds. And so there's lots, there's so many variables in strength training that you can change that Everybody talks about a prescription, and I always ask compared to what? You can compare heavy loads to going for a walk and heavy loads look awesome for lots of things, but there's still benefits of going to a walk. But I mean, they're not comparable. So when we compare lighter lows to heavier lows lifting to fatigue or high effort, everything kind of comes out in the wash.

Michelle MacDonald (27:38):

Speaking about the benefits, could you talk a little bit about things like metabolic function, insulin sensitivity, mobility?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (27:48):

Yeah, so we've tried really hard, my group here to push a narrative that is everybody's perception, particularly the clinicians. We've got so much work in the aerobic field that it's sort of at the pinnacle, and it's nothing aerobic exercise can't do, don't get me wrong. I do

Michelle MacDonald (28:08):

Aerobic work. I remember posting a win about cardiovascular benefits. You're like, yes, resistance training now is

Dr. Stuart Phillips (28:12):

Yes, yes. So even the American Heart Association says it's good for your heart, your cardiovascular health. So I think the perception, it used to be it was like cardiovascular is here and weights are here, weights make you big and strong. Cardiovascular does insulin sensitivity, it does this, does cardiovascular health and everything. And actually when you look at the health benefits, they overlap a lot more than they are dissimilar, in which case it sort of speaks to exercise is good per se, but if you want to be strong and you want to maintain independence, and I think as you age, then that's the domain of strength and power if you want to be cardiovascularly fit. And that's lots of benefits associated with that, that's going to be more aerobic hit, that type of stuff. But I got a good friend, mostly online named Drew Bay who's down in Texas, and he constantly reminds me, he goes, I can make your resistance exercise workout, a cardiovascular challenge. And you caught me this morning, you were spot on. I had just finished a body weight circuit and my heart rate at the end of it was I was up 160 beats. And I have a hard time hitting that on a bike. So kudos to Drew. He always reminds me of that. So if he's listening, shout out, drew, you got me, man. I get it.

Michelle MacDonald (29:30):

Yeah. I think again, in the coaching world, and we rely a lot on cardio for the fat loss phase of our athletes getting on stage, especially those that don't start with a lot of calories, they don't start with 3000 calories and they're trying to get down to ultra lean condition. You don't want to be dieting somebody on no food, so let's contribute through cardio. And it's always interesting to see how cardio just gets shunted back and forth into all of these. It's terrible. It's going to ruin your gains. And I love the work of DACA list. She's like, are you kidding me? Look at my athletes. She's an endurance, specializes in the endurance training and kind of hybrid training. And I think to myself like, gosh, you think the soccer players and basketball players and football players of the world are ruining themselves by running up and down the field again, we just get to black and white and chasing these crazy ideas that something has got to be except for smoking, right? It's got to be bad for

Dr. Stuart Phillips (30:29):

You. Yeah. Yeah. Smoking hands down or intravenous drug use, not a good habit. Break that immediately. But from the standpoint, and I have a good friend three doors down, Marty Gal who's Mr. High Intensity in oval training, and he ruined days off for me because I used to say, oh, I've only got like 20 minutes. I'm just going to pass today. And he showed me, he goes, oh, no, you can do these high intensity. You can even do it in the stairwell. And I was like, oh, bugger. Okay. And so those things are really good for your heart and your lungs, but movement and mobility and strength and ultimately power, the ability to get out of a chair, get across an intersection, in and out of a car or whatever it is, that's the domain of lifting weights basically. So if you're not doing it, you should start. And if you don't like gyms, find something at home. There's lots of online videos and bands or body weight, those sorts of things. I mean, entry level stuff, get in and start doing it is really the message.

Michelle MacDonald (31:36):

Yeah, I was going to say to close, what would be, if you could give every woman over 41 tip, what would it be other than just start lifting weights? You just said that.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (31:49):

Yeah, sure. I'll say this. I think as we age, I often remind women that on average the outlived men in the United States and Canada, almost everywhere in the world, on average about four to five years, the data we have here in Canada, I don't think it's dissimilar in the States, is that almost 75% of women will spend that time in full-time institutionalized care. They'll be dependent on somebody else to live, right? And my mom is one of them. My dad dies several years ago, and she lives in a place where people help her. She's not completely dependent, but that's where she lives. And so it's not a bad quality of life, but most people want to age and be in their own home for as long as possible. To me, the key to doing that is strength and power. And so think it's like compound interest, right? And so when do you want to start? Well, the message is as early as possible, but if you haven't started, you want to think about something that you're going to put in, not the longevity bank, because I think Longevity's great, but who wants to live to be 120 and feel like they're 120? Right? It's not my goal

Michelle MacDonald (33:11):

Quality,

Dr. Stuart Phillips (33:12):

But health span health, exactly. The quality of the time that you're here. And I think mobility, physical mobility is key to that. And so your ability to be strong and have some power in your legs, your glutes and your upper body to push things over your head, what's going to limit you? And it's going to determine at some point your quality of life. So if you're a woman over 40 and you're not getting stronger, you should start

Michelle MacDonald (33:40):

Lastly, anything you want to flag, any red flag that you're like, man, this has got to die. This is just not helpful for women.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (33:47):

Well, I mean, there's a lot of things that are out there. I think people need to drop the word need from their vocabulary when we're discussing anything to do with fitness or being physically active, unless there is truly evidence that it's a need. And it sort of crystallizes on this whole point about, you need to do it my way and my way is this way because, well, I said, and that's my way. And again, not to be disingenuous, but I don't have a book to sell. I don't have programs to promote. I just do research. So when I look at the research, the need to do any one thing, that's a tough hill to die on. And most of the data shows that actually most evidence is that exercise always exists in terms of benefit on a dose response. So yes, there are some things that get better, but if somebody's doing nothing, that's from nothing to something is the big change or the drop in risk or the benefit gained. I just think people need to be a little less dogmatic about what people need to do and get out there and do something is always the message. Once you've mastered that, then more of something and the more specifics of the something, yeah, that's fine, but the need part is greatly overstated and overplayed, in my opinion.

Michelle MacDonald (35:24):

Yeah, yeah. All again, for that to ride that algorithm. But I think, I hope it comes from a great place to get people inspired, but I love your position. You're incredibly inclusive and you think of the broader population and how crucial it is to be very inclusive to people that need to get started from ground zero, right? Something is better than

Dr. Stuart Phillips (35:48):

Nothing. Thanks for that. It's my students that constantly challenge me to think about things in a different way. They're really the inspiration for a lot. Everybody goes, oh, you've got these ideas. And I'm like, well, I've just talked about it in lab meeting. It was a PhD student came up with that, not me. So I bask in their reflected hard work and great thinking.

Michelle MacDonald (36:10):

Where can our listeners find more of your work? Where would you point them to?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (36:15):

So I've given up on Twitter. I think it's really gone downhill, but I'm Max,

Michelle MacDonald (36:19):

No, Twitter,

Dr. Stuart Phillips (36:19):

Ken Prof. MAC? Yeah. X, sorry. M-A-C-K-N-P-R-O-F. On Twitter, Instagram. I am the same on TikTok. I don't really do well on TikTok. It really is only there to frustrate my sons, I'll be honest. But I'm on Facebook as well. SMP PhD. And on LinkedIn is Stuart Phillips.

Michelle MacDonald (36:41):

And you've got a lot of publications. I think you have a lot of them, or at least recent ones on your tre, right? You have TRE on Instagram?

Dr. Stuart Phillips (36:52):

Yep.

Michelle MacDonald (36:52):

Great. Alright.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (36:53):

Thank you. Yeah, I try. I try. I told man it's by me. I don't have anybody else helping me out. I crossed my own plane, so if there's something wrong, it's definitely my fault.

Michelle MacDonald (37:03):

That is fabulous. Good for you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being a voice of science on social media. We need more people like you and Jen Gunter and Lauren, Dr. Lauren, and just telling

Dr. Stuart Phillips (37:16):

People She's a good one.

Michelle MacDonald (37:17):

She's a good one. Yeah, just nuance is everything. Context is everything. Think critically. Be careful of people trying to sell you something. If it sounds too good to be true, take a pause. And just really, honestly, I appreciate the work that you do so much. Thank you for being on the show.

Dr. Stuart Phillips (37:35):

Thank you very much, Michelle. Appreciate it.

Michelle MacDonald (37:45):

If this conversation shifted your mindset around muscle strength or aging, please share this episode with another woman who should be listening to this. It would really help the podcast grow. My vision is to get this information into as many households as possible and positively influence as many women as I can. This is an evidence-based podcast. We're bringing in a continual stream of top experts, researchers, and doctors to talk about all things relating to optimizing the female body.