66 | Andy Gullahorn: Bowling League, Bonfire, or Badminton

There's a song lyric that reminds us of something important:

"If beauty’s what you’re after, just look close to see...
Knowing small things matter is really no small thing."

That's from one of our friend Andy Gullahorn's songs. What a treat to have Andy back for another conversation. Talking with someone who's been a friend for a long time means you don't have to have much planned...the conversation will happen naturally. And this one defintely did.

From friendship rituals to turning 50 to signing up for the Senior Olympics, Andy looks for meaning in everything. And the people who are around can sense there's something special about finding connection everywhere. Which, not coincidentally, actually gives us What We Really Want. That's not just the title of this show, it's also the title of one of Andy's newest songs, which he performs for us during the conversation! (around the 33:40 mark).

Here's to you finding beauty and meaning, whether in bowling leagues, bonfires, badminton, or anything else around you. Thanks for the reminder, Andy.

#andygullahorn #winningstreak #highfive #songwriting #connection #relationships #spirituality #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Andy's website

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Transcript

Presence Versus The Next Thing

Andy Gullahorn 0:00

I want to be as present as I can in the moment where I am because there's so much. There's always something there can be something cool out there that seems like, oh, that's what I want to get to. But when you really start to believe how beautiful everything is like right in front of you, let me enjoy this while I'm here.

Announcer 0:16

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:29

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of What We Really Want. We've got a return guest. You'll have to go all the way back to episode four when we talk to Andy Gullahorn and Gabe Scott. It was called Clap Snap High Five. Many of you remember that. And uh we've got Andy back again. This one's called Bowling League, Bonfire, or Badminton. To get this thing set up, we have none other than that friend Gabe Scott here to talk about Andy. Hey, Gabe.

Gabe Scott 0:56

Hey y'all. I mean, hey, Greg, and hey y'all.

Greg 0:59

Thank you for taking a step away from Mother's Day lunch. Be sure to thank Keely for me.

Gabe Scott 1:05

Absolutely. I'll do that.

Greg 1:06

Well, hey, I don't think I've told you this, but you might be interested to know. I'm going to tell you this as an encouragement and also an opportunity for you to feel a little humility. Your episode with Andy is the second most listened to episode of all of them. Your number two. Your number two. Silver?

Gabe Scott 1:29

Oh, come on, man. Yeah.

Greg 1:31

But it's it's so far ahead of number three.

Gabe Scott 1:35

I'll take it, man. I'm still on the podium.

Greg 1:37

Gabe, tell me about. Well, let me tell you something about our conversation, the conversation Andy and I had, and then I would love to get you to speak to it. One of the things that I pointed out to Andy that I've noticed in the 10 years that I've known him is that Andy is a gatherer. I mean, he really gets people together and he finds like meaningful things to do when they're together. And uh, I mean, I know you guys just celebrated the 12-year anniversary of the high five, and that's been the longest standing and probably the most significant one. But what have you noticed about just all the years you've been a friend of Andy's and how you've noticed him just creating connection wherever he goes?

Gabe Scott 2:15

Yeah, man. First, I need to say amen to what you said about Andy. It's it's very, very true. I'm not reading off a list right now, I'm just telling the truth, which is that Andy loves bringing people together, whether they are people who like each other, people who don't like each other, people that have spent a lot of time around each other, or people that have just met. He is an expert at finding a common ground, a common place, not a common bond. It doesn't have to that develops later. And then very gently makes it makes a suggestion of, hey, maybe we can all do this. And usually the way it goes is you you have a few takers. I'm pretty sure I've always been a taker of yeah, let's let's do it. And then you have some folks that don't, but the few that do gather in what he's the place that he creates ends up being so special and fun and meaningful that by the the end of the day or the end of the week or the end of the tour, whatever it is that we're on, everybody's in because everybody everybody's like, Oh gosh, I think I'm missing out on something that's really awesome.

Greg 3:13

That's the thing, it's just about somebody who makes anything, doing anything together just look fun and like it makes your life better.

Gabe Scott 3:21

Dude lights a fire at his house in the backyard, and hundreds of people show up.

Greg 3:26

We talked about that.

Gabe Scott 3:27

Yeah, he's loved by a lot of people.

Greg 3:29

One of the things that Andy mentioned when we talked was a future project for you guys. Now that he's 50, he said that he has signed you guys up for the senior Olympics.

Gabe Scott 3:41

Yes, indeed, man. We're gonna go for it, man. Badminton, this sounds so weird to say. And I I couldn't be more proud to say it, which is that high-fiving Andy and then walking into this gym and playing badminton with a huge slew of people of all age and race as one of the highlights of my week, every week of my life. And my guess is that whenever my life is done, I'll be talking about how much all of that meant to me. It's a wonderful community.

Greg 4:08

I don't think there's any risk of that not happening.

Gabe Scott 4:10

Yeah, like I'm I'm not exaggerating there's probably even a better word, but uh anytime we talk about that, I I'm giddy inside, and I'm pretty sure he is too. Just the idea that how did we end up here? And how is it how is this so fun? I can forget about almost everything else going on in life, and I'm not saying it's healthy all the time, but I can we can lose ourselves in the moment, which is one of the most beautiful things in the world to me. Just it's like, what am I doing right now? I'm playing badminton with Andy and a bunch of other people, and and we're nearly all smiling.

Greg 4:43

Well, Gabe, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you literally walking away from the lunch table in a crowded downtown atmosphere and hiding in a stairwell, I think, to talk to me for a few minutes about your friend. I owe you one.

Gabe Scott 4:57

Oh man. Glad to do it. Seriously. I love you, Andy.

Greg 5:01

I love you, Andy. Okay.

Gabe Scott 5:05

I love you, Greg.

Welcome Back, Andy

Greg 5:07

Thanks, Gabe. So again, this is episode 66. Thank you, Gabe, for helping to set it up and introduce our friend Andy Gullahorn. It's called Bowling League, Bonfire, or Badminton, and it starts right now. This has been a test of the emergency alert system. If this is an actual emergency, you would be dead. Dead. I'm thinking about that bit on the weekend update. Is it Garth and Kat? Is it no? They were like making up songs or making up songs as they went. Yeah. It was Kristen Wig and it was uh Armison. Fred Armison. Yes, that was the best. How's it going? Wait, are we recording already? Oh, yeah. Oh that whole emergency alert thing is going in.

Andy Gullahorn 6:02

I was like, dude, why are you asking me that? We've just been hanging out for a long time.

Greg 6:05

I know. It's going great.

Andy Gullahorn 6:07

How are you doing?

Greg 6:08

In general or at this moment?

Andy Gullahorn 6:10

Both.

Greg 6:11

Okay. In one word. In general, groovy. Okay. In this moment, scattered.

Andy Gullahorn 6:19

Okay.

Greg 6:20

This is interesting for me because when we're recording this, it's in a very small window of free time during one of our Roots Retreat men's intensive weekends. Don't call me anything if not an opportunist. So Andy's here and wanted to grab this opportunity because we had talked what, like a month ago? I said, I want to do another episode.

Andy Gullahorn 6:43

Maybe.

Greg 6:43

Yeah. Just I want to commoditize our friendship and yeah.

Andy Gullahorn 6:47

I want to use your friendship to further the message of my own career.

Greg 6:52

Okay. Happy to oblige. It has been two years since the last time you were on the show. You and Gabe were episode number three. That's right.

Andy Gullahorn 7:05

Right before the 10th anniversary of the high five. Yes, which is still going. We just celebrated the 12th anniversary. Uh we just did another high five walk. You know.

Greg 7:14

For people who maybe haven't heard that other episode and don't know what the high five is, take a second and just tell us real quick what that is.

Andy Gullahorn 7:21

A high five is when two people put their hands out and then

Greg 7:25

smack them together.

Andy Gullahorn 7:26

Smack them together.

Greg 7:27

Hold on, listen. Listen, we'll do one right now. Ready? We didn't get good seal on that. But here it is again. One, two, three. Okay. That's a that's actually two high fives.

Andy Gullahorn 7:37

Right. For those that don't know, my friend Gabe and I have been walking a mile and a half to give each other a high five every week for the last 12 years. And it's probably the most important spiritual discipline that I do in my life. But I don't do it because it's a spiritual discipline. I do it because it's fun.

Greg 7:53

The spiritual discipline part is just the nice icing.

Andy Gullahorn 7:56

Yeah, just that's what I tell my wife to justify the time.

Greg 8:01

I've asked you this question before because you've been on the show before, but sitting here on a Friday afternoon, what do you really want out of however many minutes we're going to be talking?

Andy Gullahorn 8:10

To spend time with you. Connection.

Greg 8:12

Me too.

Andy Gullahorn 8:13

I have no clue what we're going to talk about, but I'm excited about it.

Greg 8:16

People who have listened know that I usually don't have too many things prepared. I actually have almost nothing prepared for this because I figured we can probably find something to talk about.

Andy Gullahorn 8:27

Which is a big deal. You seem like a very prepared kind of person.

Greg 8:30

Yes. And it was actually a choice when we started this two years ago that I realized that if I come in with too much prepared, I'm going to lose out on connection. Because I'm going to be less concerned about what they're saying as the answer to my question and more of how can I connect this with the next thing I'm planning on asking them. And I think some of that came out of fear of looking like I don't know what I'm doing. So if I can be really, really prepared, then I won't look stupid. But if that pulls me away from really connecting with what my guest is saying, then it's not really a conversation. It's an interview. I'm learning that there's a big difference between a conversation and an interview.

Andy Gullahorn 9:11

Yeah, that's great.

Greg 9:12

Some of it has to do with what I bring into it, some of it has to do with what the other person brings. And but yeah, I think it was a good decision to go low on the preparation scale because that represented a stretch for me.

Andy Gullahorn 9:24

I'm proud of you.

Future Senior Olympian

Greg 9:25

Thank you. I'll I'll receive that. You just turned 50. 

Andy Gullahorn 9:29

Shh.

Greg 9:30

No, it's out. It's out in the world.

Andy Gullahorn 9:32

I'm actually excited about it. Yeah.

Greg 9:34

Well, you've looked 50 for a long time.

Andy Gullahorn 9:36

Yeah, that's what somebody at my birthday party said. I'm like a month into my 50s now. And I love it. Totally fine with it. Every decade seems to have been better than the one before. Yeah. I expect this one to be better. But one of the things I'm most excited about being in my 50s is once you're 50 years old, you can sign up for the senior Olympics.

Greg 9:58

Are you going to?

Andy Gullahorn 10:00

I already have.

Greg 10:01

You have?

Andy Gullahorn 10:01

Yeah, Gabe and I are doing the Tennessee Senior Olympics, senior games.

Greg 10:06

What events?

Andy Gullahorn 10:07

Well, just badminton this year. And if we if you make it past the state, then then we would qualify for the the national senior Olympics in Tulsa next year. So that was kind of our after getting on CBS Sunday morning was like our new goal was to train and be ready for Senior Olympic badminton, which I kind of think there isn't a whole lot of competition in the 50 to 55 range because people one but most of them still have jobs. Two most people that age range don't really want to admit...

Greg 10:40

...being able to play badminton in the middle of the day.

Andy Gullahorn 10:43

Yeah. So uh they're also not like super excited about signing up for senior Olympics, but I'm like, I'm gonna embrace it. You know, one of the events, I can't do it this year because I'm gonna be out of town, but chair volleyball, it's just like six chairs on each half of the volleyball court, and it's a big, it's a big beach ball that you throw around and it says on a thing like, oh, it's really good for like neck agility or something like that. I don't think it's geared for 50 to 55 year olds, but like if nobody shows up in that age range, you're I guess you're a gold medal winner, right? Yeah, Olympian's Olympian.

Greg 11:15

Something something about what I know about you and Gabe makes me think that when you guys show up for the senior Olympics state competition in badminton, some of the other competitors are gonna be just ticked off. Like, you know what? Do you know what you think I mean by that?

Andy Gullahorn 11:33

No.

Greg 11:34

I think they're gonna see some people coming in like young bucks, you just barely are old enough, and you're gonna come in here and like this is supposed to be chill, and you're gonna be all competitive and you're gonna ruin it for everybody. And I can just see all like, yes, that's correct.

Andy Gullahorn 11:48

I mean, it's not like I'm playing 90-year-olds or something like that. It's like 50 to 55 years old. So it must be people our age that we'd be playing against.

Greg 11:55

So this isn't like 50 and up.

Andy Gullahorn 11:57

Well, it is, but but it's you play in age ranges of like five years. So that it's fair. Yeah, so it's fair. Okay. But yeah, but I I hope I and I don't know what the competition is going to be like in Tennessee. There's there are people in Chattanooga and Memphis that are probably way better than us, but we'll find out in June. You'll find out.

Greg 12:15

I'm ahead of you because you just turned 50. I'll turn 56 this summer. And being in your 50s is not as old as it used to be. Yeah, that's right. You know, but I'm interested in something that you said when you when I first asked you about it, that you have enjoyed each decade more than the last. Tell me more about that.

Andy Gullahorn 12:35

Oh, I don't know. It's like, you know, stereotypically there's supposed to be a lot of fear about getting older and getting into a new decade, but I certainly like my 30s more than my 20s. I certainly like my 40s more than my 30s. And already I just kind of feel like a slowing down of like, oh, I've been here for a while. I can't pretend like I'm this young kid who doesn't know anything and doesn't have any experience. I still feel pretty immature, but I also feel like I have something to offer people around me. And I don't know, it's kind of fun. I'm already enjoying, you know, being in your 50s is like giving up. I'm just kidding.

Greg 13:13

Well, you're kidding. I'm listening to you talk about it, and I'm realizing that what I've noticed since I've been in my 50s, some things are the same, but I, in almost every context in my life, am hanging around men who are younger than me, like significantly younger than me.

Andy Gullahorn 13:30

Me too.

Greg 13:30

And, you know, the recovery community that we do at Awaken, so many younger men coming in. And so I'm just hanging around with men that are my son's age. And I tore a tendon in my knuckle just serving a tennis ball the other day. And so I'm I'm aware of how my body is breaking down and I can't run like I used to. And so I think that that is that's the part of getting older that's bothering me. I still feel immature. And I feel like I think and I kind of move through life like somebody who's a lot younger than I am. And I enjoy it, like I have fun with life, but I feel like I'm looking in the mirror and I'm being reminded every time I do that, like, oh yeah, I'm not in my 30s or my 40s anymore.

Andy Gullahorn 14:13

Totally. Well, I think there's so many life experiences at this point where you've learned, oh, I guess I'm not in control of everything. And and and like what happens to our bodies is just a metaphor for that. It's kind of like, oh, well, if I hurt myself playing tennis, yeah, I'm not gonna be recovered and playing again in a week like I was when I was in my 20s. It's like, oh, I have to kind of yield and pay attention to that, and I don't have control. I can't just make it all better right away. And there's something about that that kind of like pulls you out of a hustle culture. So I'm excited about that.

Greg 14:48

Did I tell you I just had to go on a statin?

Andy Gullahorn 14:50

No, you didn't.

Greg 14:51

That made me feel a thousand years old.

Andy Gullahorn 14:54

Did you already order the little chair that goes up your stairs?

Greg 14:58

I wish. I would love I'd ride that thing all the time. I'd find reasons to go upstairs.

Andy Gullahorn 15:05

It was nice to know you.

Greg 15:06

Well, it's nice to be known, you know. Nice to know that there are people who are gonna be grieving at my imminent funeral. Oh, totally. Totally. I've told you that I expect you to come and sing a few songs at my funeral, haven't I?

Andy Gullahorn 15:19

I don't know.

Greg 15:20

We'll talk. Okay, yeah. We'll talk.

Andy Gullahorn 15:21

Do you know what date I need to put on the calendar?

Greg 15:24

I've got a range. Okay. That's great. You just have to still be alive.

Andy Gullahorn 15:28

I'll block off.

Greg 15:29

And if you...

Andy Gullahorn 15:30

...this is really morbid.

Greg 15:31

If you're if you're arthritic and your voice sounds like garbage, I just want you to stand up there and lip sync to your

Andy Gullahorn 15:37

I'll do some Radio Travis AI.

Greg 15:38

You sound pretty good on your recordings. Oh. So well, good.

Andy Gullahorn 15:41

Yeah, I'll just play some recordings.

Bonfires And Making Space For People

Greg 15:43

Yeah. Yeah. Just stand up there and look sad. That's good. So for your 50th, you did something that was not that dissimilar to what you do every year. You have a tradition of having a backyard birthday bash at your place. And a few years ago, I started coming up to your birthday bash, and the bonfire is burning old dead Christmas trees.

Andy Gullahorn 16:05

Oh man, it's just that's another weird tradition where my neighbors and I started just after Christmas when people would leave their Christmas trees out of the uh the curb for the city to pick up. We tried to be helpful and drive around and pick up as many trees as we could and just store them by the fire pit because it's it's fun to watch Christmas trees burn. So I always have a stash. This year I had about like 80 Christmas trees back there. I don't burn them all at the same time, but you know, just one or two on the fire at a time, it's it's pretty exciting. Oh, it goes up fast and hot and very hot, very hot, yeah.

Greg 16:38

I've met so many people that I've known about and been interested in and have gotten a chance to meet. And it was just so cool sitting around a fire, just having a conversation, not about this person's music or their ministry or that, but just them as a person. And I think that's one of the things that I did jot down to want to talk to you about in this is I see you as a gatherer of people. When you're well, when you come here for these intensives, it's either we've knocked off for the night or there's some free time. Like I just kind of see you looking around. And it's like, okay, what are we gonna do? Let's go, let's go play. And at your birthday party, you've got games set up and you've got just a lot of things. And with a high five, when you guys are out on the road doing the high five, you'll gather people around and say, hey, come do a high five walk with us. So am I landing on something that you know about yourself as far as being a gatherer? Is that something that's intentional or something that other people have said about you? And what, if any part does that play in how you feel connected in the world?

Curiosity Without Needing To Compete

Andy Gullahorn 19:11

That's a good question. Yeah, I have heard people say that before, and I guess I do feel I don't know if I feel like a gatherer, but like at the party, I just enjoy kind of sitting there and seeing people from different areas of the world connecting. I get a lot of joy out of that. I I was actually talking with Gabe about this this week because we were talking since it was the 12th anniversary. One of the things about that experience, and this this isn't because of the high five, but I think it's part of what why we started doing it in the first place, is that we both kind of believe that around every corner there's like magic. Like if if you there's an invitation to deep connection everywhere. Usually we don't have time to be open for it. But think about like doing the high five, then one day walking in and playing badminton. Now we've been playing badminton for 11 years, and there's a community of people there that I just love and they feel like family. But there's a there was certainly an intentional sense of like, hey, we're doing this adventure thing, and part of this adventure is just like, let's be open to whatever. Like if we run into somebody on the street, let's just stop and talk to them and then see where that goes. Being able to prioritize something like that over a long period of time, I think just intensifies the feeling that, like, oh, there's in any kind of microcosm or any group of people, if you just take the time to listen to a story, there's just some some just like really beautiful things right beneath the surface, just right around the corner if you look for it. So that's part of what goes into the gathering part. It's just like I think it doesn't really matter what the excuse is, whether it's a bowling league or a bonfire or playing badminton or whatever. It's actually kind of what excites me about the senior Olympics. It's like nobody, I don't know anybody else who does that, but I'd love to go and just see people, this little microcosm of people that like this is really important to them. And it'd just be it sounds kind of funny and fun. But yeah, I think it's just in encouraging that part of me that that wants to see the magic and the beauty kind of beneath every little morsel of life. And so I like seeing that in other people. Selfishly, I think the gathering part is just I like to have fun and I like connecting with people. I would like to say that it's because I'm this really generous person that really wants other people to connect with each other, which I do. Right. But I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it for myself. You didn't get something out of it as well. Yeah, and that's okay. Yeah, I I mean part of that is just practically learning in my life. If I try to do something for a reason other than like me really enjoying it or finding some personal gratification in it, then it's not sustainable for me. I'm not dedicated enough to keep doing that. Even if it's something that's not easy, but I find meaning in it, yeah, kind of freeing myself up to be like, oh, I find a lot of meaning in that. So I'm just gonna do it. And when you do that, then it doesn't matter if there's two people there or 200 people there. Yeah, I would do it either way.

Greg 22:25

So when you were talking about not knowing what to expect with the whole senior Olympics thing, it made me remember something that I got to do back, I think it was 2018. I've got, I think I've told you about my friend Micah, who is an ultra-marathoner. She, her husband, Cary and I have been friends for over 30 years. And Micah and Cary and I all, you know, used to run together. They run super early, so I don't like run with them as much as I used to, but we would all train and do marathons. And then Micah just decided that I'm gonna try Ultra. And she realized that, like, okay, this is the kind of this is the niche in running that I'm made for. And so there's this race in July called the Badwater 135. And it starts in Death Valley National Park, and it goes 135 miles through the desert, and it goes up Mount Whitney. This is driving? It's running. Oh, no, no way. On your feet. I know I'm just kidding. She started, it starts at 11 o'clock. At night when the temperature is about 120 degrees Fahrenheit. And then when you finish, you know, after 14,000 feet of elevation, it's like 40 degrees. So it takes you through like all kinds of crazy stuff. And so before she could get accepted as a registrant for Badwater, the race organizer says, well, you've got to do three different 100 mile races just to show that you're, you know, you can do it. And so the first one, this is a really long windup, but the first one was the Keys 200 or the Keys 100. And so it started in Key Largo and went all the way down the Overseers Highway to Key West. And it was 100 miles in a straight line going kind of southwest through the Florida Florida Keys. And Cary and I crewed for Micah. And so that was my first immersion into the ultra marathon community. It was so fascinating because A, they're they're all kind of crazy in a delightful kind of crazy way. But the thing that I loved about it the most is I had in all the conversations, I had virtually nothing to contribute because I'm not an ultra marathoner. I didn't have that temptation to like compete in conversation or to one-up anybody because I had no stories. And it was really cool just to Cary would introduce me or Mike would introduce me to this guy or that woman. And I just have nothing but questions because I'm just curious to know like what's it like in this and how was that? And there was something cool about going into new things where I didn't have a comfort level and just being a sponge, you know? Totally. And you talking about, well, I mean, let's just try it. Yeah. I don't know if I'm going to like it. I don't know if I'm going to be any good at it. But and if we see somebody, let's just, let's just chat them up and ask them about their life. I feel like I and a lot of other people have this unintentional thing that we're doing of kind of in, I think, in the quest for connection that kind of looks feels like looking for a better offer. It's like, okay, yeah, I could do that, but like I don't want to fully like rest in this because what if something more fun comes up, you know, or something where I have more to contribute. And I think what that does for me is it pulls me out of being able to be really present and curious and connected. And so in the desire for connection, I'm actually missing out sometimes on the connection that's right in front of me. Does that make sense?

Sex Robots Don't Get Headaches

Andy Gullahorn 26:01

Totally. Yeah. And that's not to get too into it, but you know, in the in the the podcast we did about the high five, when we talked about Gabe getting sick and losing his memory and stuff, one of the the effects of that long term is just that not being able to count on your memory from day to day, your focus becomes more just on the present moment and just being where you are and enjoying this conversation with somebody right now, wherever you are, because he might forget it the next day or two weeks from now. And I mean, he's kind of prone to being very hyper-present, anyways. But yeah, I think that kind of bleeds into the way that we look at all those experiences and the way that I look at those experiences, like, oh, I want to be as present as I can in the moment where I am. Because there's so much, you're right, there's always something that there can be something cool out there that seems like, oh, that's what I want to get to. But when you really start to believe how, see how beautiful everything is like right in front of you, then it's like, oh, why would I let me enjoy this while I'm here?

Greg 27:05

And does it really matter what the thing that's right in front of you is? Because if you're approaching it in the way that you're talking about right now, the beauty is there, just because the beauty is in being present.

Andy Gullahorn 27:19

Yeah. And I think I sometimes I wonder if that's a gift that comes with like the work that you do here that I get to be a part of, where you're hearing stories of people that have been through a lot of pain. Sometimes have caused a lot of pain for people that they love, people who've hurt other people in a lot of ways. So it's like not like a hero story, yeah, all the time, right? But it's a story of pain. And but then it doesn't matter who it is, what they've done, you get into their story and it's like, oh, this is a human being, and and this is a beautiful story, and you can't help but like love that person. And like when when you can do that in for in stories of people talking about the their worst moments and uh the hardest season of life, then how much easier is it to do like just in in the regular part of life? I I kind of think that's a gift of us being able to swim in stories of people that have you just get to hear a lot of stories and you get to see how beautiful they are, no matter where the person's coming from or what they've done.

Greg 28:24

Yeah. Getting back to what you said you wanted, which was just to have some time of connection. There's a song that you've written recently that I love the title of it. I really I'm partial to it for some reason. Weird. It's called What We Really Want. And I will acknowledge it was not because of this podcast, but it was because it came out of a conversation that you had with Curt Thompson and Michael John Cusick, too, right? Yeah. You were at an event with both of them, and it was like a mealtime conversation. Yeah. We were yeah. Speaking of connection and the things that we miss, because in our desire for connection, we end up doing disconnected things. Tell us a little bit about that.

Andy Gullahorn 29:08

Yeah, the song, it was a funny conversation at at lunch talking about AI, and they were asking how AI was kind of affecting like songwriting in Nashville, particularly. And and both Curt and Michael are authors. And I was like, Well, how does it affect you know you guys and your writing and all this kind of stuff? And they're like, Well, we don't we never use it. They're lying. And I honestly, I don't I don't know enough about it to know how to use it for songwriting, although I know a lot of people are using it in different ways. And Curt was talking about this event that he had to speak at where he was kind of giving a counterpoint to somebody who was making an argument for sex robots and how they could sex robots could be a net positive for our c culture.

Greg 29:55

Hang on a second. I'm just making a quick note for the title of this episode, An Argument for Sex Robots.

Andy Gullahorn 30:04

Oh, you don't have to write it down.

Greg 30:06

An argument for sex robots by Andy Gullahorn.

Andy Gullahorn 30:10

He was not making a counterpoint to my argument. No, but but somebody was was saying that you know it could be a net positive and that uh maybe would bring down sex trafficking and and epidemic of loneliness or you know, what whatever it is. And so Curt was kind of essentially just offering another perspective on that. And his perspective was was basically like we think that what we want is to have what we want all the time, like to always have a yes for whatever it is that we want. And so here are machines that are designed to do that, to like whatever it is. This is my my heart's desire. I get it when it whenever I want it, connection, whatever it is. And he was talking about how detrimental that is for actual relationship. That's not what real relationship is, to always get what you want all the time. Part of growing and becoming a better human being is rubbing against those things that we don't get and how you deal with that, how you deal with failure and disappointment and all this kind of stuff. So that's kind of you know where the song came from. You know, but one thing that Curt did say that I put into the song is his response basically was, I don't think the people that are designing these sex robots are designing them to have headaches. Right. And I was like, Well, that's really that's really genius. Because why would you? Why why would you theoretically design something that's not going to give you what you want all the time? And so, you know, and that's where the the correlation with that and the title of the song and your podcast is kind of like, yeah, we think we want that, but underneath that, that's not what we really want. Like, we want real connection, we want to grow, we want to learn, and we want to really be seen.

What We Really Want (live performance)

Greg 32:00

And we want to know that when we get a yes from someone, it's a choice. It's because they decided, it's not because they were obligated. Yeah. Yeah. It can in the short term, it can feel pretty good to all have somebody always say yes, but but getting what you want all the time can get empty and boring. You know, it's like the end of Inside Out. You know, Joy spent the whole movie trying to keep sadness in a corner, but then realize that joy isn't joy unless it's contrasted with sadness. Right. You know, a yes isn't a really true yes unless there's the possibility of a no.

Andy Gullahorn 32:36

Right. So, yeah, that's where I just stole some words from Curt Thompson and put them in a song.

Greg 32:42

Well, I'm sure Michael had some good things to add too. I mean, I I've shared when I had him on this show that what we really want, I mean, the idea of calling it that was from two sources. One was Johan Hari's Everything You Know About Addiction Is Wrong TED Talk. And the other was a story that Michael told in his book, Surfing for God, when he was talking to Larry Crab about a struggle he was having. And Larry said, you know, Michael, I think if this is what you want really want to do, you should just do it. And he eventually got really frustrated and like slammed his hand down on the table, says, That's not what I really want. Ah, you know, and so yeah, it's all it's all in the same in the same sphere. We think we know what we really want, but then the truth reveals itself. Yeah. And so you wrote a song about it, and we're going to hear you play and sing.

Songwriting From Presence, Not Pressure

Andy Gullahorn 33:30

And it goes a little something like this. Oh, I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Nobody's made a sex robot that gets headaches tonight. It would be bad for business if they wrote that in the code. But does it really count as yes, without a chance of no? Oh, we think we know what we really want. But what we really want lies underneath. What we settle for when we don't believe we could ever have what we really want. I don't like feeling lonely. Still, I do life on my own. I long for real connection, but I settle for a phone. I wanna be content, but then I'm always chasing more, and somehow end up feeling way more empty than before. Oh, we think we know what we really want, but what we really want lies underneath. What we settle for when we don't believe we could ever have what we really want. Drill below the surface to the core that has been buried under a rock. They say anyone who knocks upon the brothel door is looking to find God. Still we think we know what we really want, what we really want lies underneath. What we settle for when we don't believe we could ever have what we really want. Could we ever have what we really want?

Greg 37:15

Yeah, that was so good. Thanks for playing that. How many, how many of your songs actually come from things that you notice in conversations with people? I mean, I know, I know just from what you told me that you have like songwriting sessions where you get together with friends and you're like, we're gonna meet and we're gonna try to write some songs today. So there's like there's a plan for it, but how many of them just kind of happen organically out of just a just a thought that hits you in the middle of a conversation? I'm looking for a specific number. Okay.

Andy Gullahorn 37:50

Eleventy.

Greg 37:51

Okay. Now, how often does it happen?

Andy Gullahorn 37:53

Uh I think all of them.

Greg 37:55

Yeah?

Andy Gullahorn 37:56

I mean, even the co-writing ones comes out of a conversation with a co-writer. Yeah, it's hard for me to think of of ideas of songs outside of story and and uh relationship. I'm sure there are some that are more kind of like, oh, I'm just here's just an idea, I'm gonna conjure this up in a test tube kind of a thing. But yeah, I think most of them are just like a co-writing appointment or whatever for me, would typically be a few hours of talking about whatever. And then we eat lunch and then come back and like, hey, you said this earlier, and let's write about that. I think most of it's it's tied to actual conversation.

Greg 38:45

I hear you talking about that, and as somebody who did music for a lot of years but didn't write much at all, like I feel jealous about that. I think that I don't know, I think just the amount of slowdown and attention paying that has to be necessary for that has always come really difficult or slowly for me. Like slowing down has come slowly. I realize is what I just said, but it's hard for me to slow things down enough. And I think that consequently some of the good stuff slips by me, you know. But I just it's it would be so cool to take something from a real connected conversation and then turn it into something that's gonna be there forever, you know. And every time you hear it, it just reminds you of that that time that you spent with your co-writer.

Andy Gullahorn 39:36

You know, I think it got there were a lot of years early on in my career where I was writing for publishing companies. It was more kind of like maybe less connected in that, in that the way we're talking about. Maybe a little bit more template. Yeah, because it's checking off a box, trying to write a song about something. But there was a specific point in my career where I was like, oh, I'm not gonna count on songwriting to be like a major part of my income. I'm not gonna write for a publishing company. So it freed me up to look at co-writes as like, I don't care, I honestly don't care if we write a song or not. There have been a lot of co-write appointments that we sit there for hours and just talk and don't write anything. And I am zero percent disappointed. They they might be disappointed, but I'm kind of like, it's worth it just to sit down, and then if something comes out of it, then great. And I think it's easier for me to, in a sense, slow it down, like what you're talking about when I'm not feeling a pressure to produce something. Right. It's just like, oh, well, here's a conversation, and sometimes it's like, what is something that maybe I can reflect back to you about what we've been talking about that maybe you need to hear, or that I'm assuming you need to hear, or that I need to hear, or in this combined conversation, what's something from this that that we could offer somebody else that somebody else might need to hear? It's just way more fun for me to write from that space than think about having to crank something out hoping that somebody records it. I I really don't care.

Empty Nest Changes And A Noisy House

Greg 41:04

And listening to you saying that takes my brain to a conversation where after it's over, I continue to think about what was said. And then maybe the next time we get together, we bring it up again. But after having some time to kind of digest it, the conversation takes a different turn. I could see that happening with songs too. Totally. Like maybe the next time around, yeah, what we had hoped for this first time or thought might happen this first time, it just it needed more time to cook.

Andy Gullahorn 41:33

Totally. And and just waiting for it to happen. And there's a lot of times where I'll have a long conversation with somebody and not really talk about any song ideas. And then once I have time to kind of internalize it and just think about it after the fact, it's like, oh, well, if if I could write a song as a gift to that person that would be telling them what I what I think they're longing to hear or whatever they need to hear. I love writing a song from that standpoint rather than yeah, oh, here's a song that you're gonna record. Yeah. It just feels good. And like 99% of the time, it's what I need to hear too. So it's it's a gift to myself.

Greg 42:13

Yeah. Well, must be nice to have all that flexibility because you're independently wealthy from your multi-level marketing pyramid schemes.

Andy Gullahorn 42:20

You know, everybody needs a sharp knife, you know what I mean? Cuts through paper,

Greg 42:24

cuts through a shoe.

Andy Gullahorn 42:25

Cuts through a shoe.

Greg 42:26

I've often had shoes that didn't quite fit in my closet. I wanted to cut them in half.

Andy Gullahorn 42:31

Yeah, what can I use? I keep trying to cut my shoe with this dull knife. It's horrible.

Greg 42:36

Or a big thick piece of rope. This rope is just too long.

Andy Gullahorn 42:40

How do I how do I make this rope shorter?

Greg 42:43

As we get to wrap up this conversation, because thankfully we get to hang out for a couple more days on this visit. You, you and Jill are getting into a phase that Stacey and I have been in for a few years before you of your house is quieter and quieter, fewer people living under your roof. You're getting pretty close to the empty nest phase.

Patreon Community Music And Goodbye

Andy Gullahorn 43:03

Well, as of after next week, I'll have two out of college and one in college. So technically, during the school year, they're all out of the house. And this is our first year to experience that. What's that been like? I haven't really felt it. I've been traveling a lot. Like in the fall, I was gone pretty much every weekend. And the one weekend I was home, kids were home for fall break or something like that. Yeah. So I haven't really experienced the quietness of the house. And then we've there's other things like renovation and winter storm stuff that we've been dealing with. Yeah. Like it's now. Are we in May? May 1st, we're recording. It's gonna be May. And uh the Jill and I have been like displaced from our bedroom since end of January. I've been staying another week.

Greg 43:47

You haven't slept since January?

Andy Gullahorn 43:49

I haven't slept. No, I slept outside on the porch.

Greg 43:51

Oh, okay.

Andy Gullahorn 43:52

No, but just like all kinds of stuff going wrong and and having to do work on the house. So it's like when that stuff's going on, you don't feel like, oh, settled and quiet in the house. So I don't know yet. And more things changing. Your oldest is getting married. Getting married and might move back to Nashville. So yeah, it's exciting. But I I kind of wish I felt more of the emptiness. I wish my kids would just leave for a while longer.

Greg 44:17

Do you want me to talk about it more and see if I can like get some tears out of you?

Andy Gullahorn 44:21

Tears out of me, like wishing that they'd be gone?

Greg 44:24

I'm just trying to make you sad to create a dramatic, manipulative moment.

Andy Gullahorn 44:27

Don't try to make me cry, Greg.

Greg 44:29

How do you feel about that, Andy? And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon. Little boy blue in the man in the moon.

Andy Gullahorn 44:40

This is the weirdest interview.

Greg 44:42

It's not an interview, it's a conversation.

Andy Gullahorn 44:43

Oh, conversation...dang it!

Greg 44:48

I do want to tell people who may not already know you've got a lot of music out there that's available for them to listen to. Whatever, wherever you stream music, there's a lot of it there. But there's a whole lot of songs that you've written in recent years that haven't been formally recorded, and you've got a Patreon page.

Andy Gullahorn 45:05

Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. Like, for example, a song like What We Really Want. That's right. I wrote in October, maybe, of last year. Whenever I write a new song, I put it up on my Patreon along with the video that kind of talks about, you know, where it came from. And that's just kind of where all my songs live. I'll do a record every few years or so, but that's probably, you know. Small percentage of all the songs that I write. And I just like having a place where I can just put all the songs in case, you know, there's some songs that I'm not gonna put on my record that might be for somebody, right? That they need in that moment. And so I'm glad I have a place for those to live. And I just like the community of it. We also get together every month on a Zoom where I play a few songs, but we play a lot of games. Family Feud. Family Feud, and we do some reverse charades. But yeah, it's just another place of creating community there. And the people there, there's a lot of like people that are there every month and some newcomers every month, whatever. But it all feels like family. It's it's fun to have families like that all over the place.

Greg 46:10

There is a record that you released not that long ago, is latter part of 2025. How long has Winning Streak been out? Came out June last year. Okay. Gosh, coming up on a year. Okay. Winning Streak, fantastic. Thank you. You gotta listen to it. If if you were gonna, if somebody said what's the best album to start with, if you really want to get a sense of like my music, what would you encourage? I don't know.

Andy Gullahorn 46:36

Maybe I'd always say the new one, but but I think all of them they're similar, they're all kind of pictures of life in that stage.

Greg 46:45

I think Steve Cuss said the Fault Lines was his favorite.

Andy Gullahorn 46:48

I wouldn't trust much that Steve says.

Greg 46:50

Well, he's Australian. Yeah. And you know there is mostly criminals.

Andy Gullahorn 46:53

Yeah, you cannot trust them.

Greg 46:55

Isn't that what Vizzini said?

Andy Gullahorn 46:57

I don't know.

Greg 46:58

"And we all know Australia is mostly criminals. Inconceivable!"

Andy Gullahorn 47:02

Especially Steve.

Greg 47:03

Please don't write letters if you live in Australia. That was a movie quote. That was not an opinion. Views expressed on this show.

Andy Gullahorn 47:10

Let it be shown that my face was in disagreement with Greg about the criminals part.

Greg 47:14

You have a disagreeable face.

Andy Gullahorn 47:16

My face is just totally disagreeable. No, I I mean I like fault lines. I like well, I like all of them.

Greg 47:24

Let's just let your disagreeable face be where we leave things.

Andy Gullahorn 47:27

Okay.

Greg 47:28

Love you, Andy.

Andy Gullahorn 47:32

Love you too, Greg.