Atkins Labcast Episode 29 - Emily Black

This week Paul speaks with AIPP Victoria President Emily Black. Emily is a people photographer who began as a darkroom technician in photography department of News Limited press. Emily’s recent success in getting the Covid19 mask ban tweaked has given a livelihood back to many Victorian photographers, and perhaps set a precedent for all Australian photographers.

Emily Black’s website:
https://www.emilyblackphotography.com
Emily’s Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/emilyblackphotography/
AIPP:
https://www.aipp.com.au
Photographers’ mask mandate change:
https://www.insideimaging.com.au/2020/aipp-calls-for-victorian-face-mask-exemption/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Happy lockdown, Kate.

SPEAKER_05 0:07

Happy? Fuck you, happy. That was awful.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Well, it was, yeah, it was pretty awful, but it was really interesting to see what would happen and how it would happen and find out all the leaky spots that we in the world, that South Australia needs to fix to make that work.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

I don't know that you're putting much of a spin on it there, hun. It was just fucking awful.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

It was really hard.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

And it was additionally awful because in the Melbourne lockdown, all of our competition did not get locked down. They all continued to run their fucking businesses for the whole time. Well, the– Yes, that is true.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Have they not had any– have to stop for any days? Not right back in the

SPEAKER_05 0:53

beginning? No. Trust me. I've kept a close eye

SPEAKER_01 0:56

on them. Well, they had a lot longer– lockdown, but they still could operate. Absolutely, but they could still

SPEAKER_05 1:02

operate. So, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, it was two very, very exciting, bizarre, terrifying days.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

Excruciating.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Because our original plan with lockdown was that you and I would do the work.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

And that's what we did.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

And we did. And it was horrendous.

SPEAKER_05 1:18

And we're never doing it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

We have the best staff on earth,

SPEAKER_05 1:22

right? Oh, it's just so, I think part of it was, I think part of what made it so horrible was was the inability to prioritise because it all felt so urgent. So there was no like, I'm going to start at A and then I'm going to end at Z. It was just, it was like trying to sip a little bit of water out of a fire hydrant. Like it was just

SPEAKER_01 1:47

all kind of flying at us. We were getting phone calls and most of the phone calls were from people who didn't, Well, probably for me to stay. I had no idea. It could have been South Australians that didn't know we're locked down. They're just talking, ringing up like normal. Yeah,

SPEAKER_05 2:00

they're just like, so I was thinking I might get an 8x10 and we're like, we're dying. What do you want?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Well, we didn't. We pretended like nothing was wrong. No,

SPEAKER_05 2:11

that was our inside voice. That was the voice inside our brains.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

And we managed to get a bit of work out, but it was urgent work and it was trying to keep Yeah,

SPEAKER_05 2:23

and like I sent everything express because I didn't know what was going to happen. That's one part of why I sent everything express. The other part was because I couldn't work out how to swap the fucking printer to the non-express label. So I was just like I could spend an hour working this out or I could just send it express. So I just sent everything

SPEAKER_01 2:42

express. And the other problem we had with the printer was that when we were looking for a job, we'd print out the job sheet. Instead of it coming out in a nice little printer, it came in on the postage label and we needed a magnifying glass to read. It was so stupid. We

SPEAKER_00 2:58

couldn't laugh at it much at the time because we were so miserable. No,

SPEAKER_01 3:02

we had a printer broken down that I was trying to get going, get fixed. We were trying to get production out. We had machines hot and running. We were trying to do bits of stuff. We did a run of E6 for a lab in Queensland. We did mounting. We had to screw the hooks on

SPEAKER_05 3:16

the backs of

SPEAKER_01 3:17

the thing. We did mounting. I

SPEAKER_05 3:19

fucked up the mounting like four times. You had to keep reprinting

SPEAKER_01 3:22

it. We had to chase the posts and the freight people who thought we were closed. We had to chase them to try and and get them to come and pick up. Yeah, there was

SPEAKER_05 3:28

a whole day where I was in my pyjamas the entire day and hadn't had a shower until four o'clock because I was waiting for couriers. And so all I did was walk around with my hair piled. I looked like a mad woman. No,

SPEAKER_01 3:40

you didn't look gorgeous. No, I did. And I was in a flat panic and you were quite calm for a time and then we yelled at each other for a bit and then we were both calm. It was awful. The thing we worked out is we were kind of lacking the plan because on Wednesday night when the lockdown happened.

SPEAKER_05 3:55

We were just like, it'll be fine, guys. Go home. Don't worry about it. Get some toilet

SPEAKER_01 4:00

paper on the way. And a third of the staff were like, are you sure looking crazy? And

SPEAKER_05 4:04

that same third was like, yeah, you're a couple of idiots. We're going to stay here and work our asses off until 6.30, which thank God they did. And then they took a whole lot of stuff home. But everyone else was like, Yeah, we don't know what to do. We're going home too and we need door paper. And so it was just crap everywhere and, you know, like it was just a bit of a fucking shambles. But it was also– it was my– I don't know why I'm taking the lead and you seem to let me, but it was my failing as a manager that I didn't bring everybody together. And I am generally– No, we shouldn't. I am generally widely known to be pretty good in a panic. Like I'm generally pretty– pretty calm when the shit hits the fan. And I think I was. I think I was just like, we're working out. It's just a long weekend.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I think what we wanted to do, because there's some of the staff who looked genuinely worried.

SPEAKER_05 4:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

And everyone thought, I mean, the thing is with this pizza problem, Pizzagate problem, is they thought the transmission of this had upped another level, that it was much more transmissive. So everyone's concerned about their families. Because

SPEAKER_05 5:10

they thought the dude that said he got the... COVID from the pizza place said he got it from just ordering a pizza. And if you can get it from just picking up a pizza. that is another level of terror. And that's why they were so freaked out.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So two-thirds of our staff felt that, like you could see some of them were really terrified. Yeah, and so

SPEAKER_05 5:32

I was doing the, you know, that thing you do when your dog is freaked out by the lightning and thunder. You walk around the house and you yawn and you yawn and you kind of go, oh, it's all good. So I was doing a whole lot of that and everyone, you know, it was crossed between people looking at me wildly while they madly did as much work because they could and a whole lot of people doing a holy shit I have to get the fuck out of here as quick as possible I don't know it was just a disaster but look the good thing about

SPEAKER_01 6:02

it I don't think it was a disaster

SPEAKER_05 6:04

it was a borderline disaster it felt disastrous

SPEAKER_01 6:06

it was an emotional disaster we were both panicked and

SPEAKER_05 6:09

because we then also had a flood of people going oh I guess you can't do anything until after Christmas like it was like it was like we said we were locked down for six days and people were like oh that equaled to six months then and they And we got all these people going, well, are you going to be able to get me my framed print by the 14th of December? And we're like, well, it's a fucking month away, you know? And so there was that.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

And we were certainly afraid of that, that sort of loss of confidence. Well,

SPEAKER_05 6:37

and we won't know how many clients decided, I'll just send it to Dingle Dongle instead of you. Yeah. And so that's distressing because, you know, of my competitive nature. Well,

SPEAKER_01 6:49

it was just a stress because, you know, we've got a lot of people here to keep in work and everything. Well, that's right. And we don't need too many hits before you're…

SPEAKER_05 6:56

Oh, and the lead up to this Christmas has been so agonising with how hard it's been to get the ephemera stuff up. And so it's just been a bit of a shit show. Fucking 2021, bring it on because 2020 can–

SPEAKER_01 7:11

You don't say that because we said the same thing in 2019. Yeah, we said that at the beginning of last year and now it's all fucked again.

SPEAKER_05 7:16

So what's going to happen next year?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

So our guest this week, Emily Black, and I think it's perfect that– because we were going to record this of the– because we thought lockdown, oh, we're going to get a bit of a break. We're going to get some things to do. We're going to do– and, of course, it just was– it was a nightmare. But– We were going to record Emily's thing because it was the first time South Australia actually felt what a lot of Victorians must have felt as far as the lockdown goes. You know, we had that feeling and– We

SPEAKER_05 7:45

never had the like grind of the length. I mean our lockdown was much harder. Like we couldn't

SPEAKER_04 7:55

even walk the dog. This little one was.

SPEAKER_05 7:56

Yeah. We were not allowed to walk the dog. We were not allowed to leave our homes and walk around the block. Yeah. We were– Restricted to the boundary of

SPEAKER_01 8:05

our buildings. No takeaway. There was no– you could make one trip to the supermarket a day. One person in the household.

SPEAKER_05 8:13

So it was a much harder thing and that's why I think they could only have forced it on us– For six days.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

And look, we should say that we're not complaining about the idea of the lockdown. No, no, no, no. It was perfect. No, no, we would have done it. We would have done

SPEAKER_05 8:29

it. I think I have to say that if they had locked our business down with the way that we have the ability to have everybody spaced and everybody masked if need be and we wipe everything and like all the stuff that we do for COVID-19, If they had kept us locked down past that six days, I would have had some– like I'd be on the phone to my member and be doing– because there wasn't a reason for that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Well, if it was a high transmission rate, then it was. Yeah, I mean if the

SPEAKER_05 9:04

transition rate is that you bloody look at someone from across the road and you get it, well, you know, that's a whole

SPEAKER_01 9:10

other universe. So Emily– and the good thing about this interview with Emily is it was– Her at the end when they were opening up. Yeah. Look, this is a few weeks ago we recorded this. And it's really, we're back to our opening up because we open tomorrow. Yep. So in some ways, I feel now what I felt then. And I'm sure we felt all those feelings that they, Victorians in every country, state, district that has been locked down has felt through that emotional rollercoaster. Yeah,

SPEAKER_05 9:43

I mean, we have a tiny, tiny taste of the difficulty that Melbourne had. And, you know, I know there's been some memes going around of like, oh, well, we're just so much better than Melbourne. We did our lockdown in three days. Which is just shit. But, you know, we've got to poke at the Vicks when we can. So, yeah, we don't have really any idea what that was like for them.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Oh, look, the length of time was a big thing. I mean, the fact that they could do more, sure, that was helpful.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

I think that not being able to go to work– and, of course, there were people in Melbourne who were not able to go to work during that lockdown because– they don't have jobs anymore, like people who work in restaurants and people who, you know, all that stuff. So not being able to go to work I think would be really, really hard. But I think there was something about, for me, there was something about not being able to walk

SPEAKER_01 10:42

the dog. Yeah, around the block.

SPEAKER_05 10:44

Yeah, and that I couldn't go for a run. Like there was no, oh, just go to the park and run around and, in circles like a rat

SPEAKER_01 10:51

and then I feel better. But you are lucky because online shopping was still working and they were still delivering.

SPEAKER_05 10:55

Yes, and I have taken advantage of that and I have abused the living shit out of one of the credit cards. The other thing we've done is

SPEAKER_01 11:01

eat the hell out of the supermarket,

SPEAKER_05 11:02

didn't we? So the running thing is going to need to happen a lot to rid myself of the sheer... How many different kinds of bread do we have? So this is the thing that Melbourne... How many different kinds of bread did we have? Shut up. This is the thing that Melbourne is going to understand. Okay, Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne. Melbourne, you know. Shut up.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Sourdough.

SPEAKER_05 11:21

Stop talking. Stop talking.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Brioche buns.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Yes, I understand that. Could you shut up

SPEAKER_01 11:26

now? That black bread you like.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Yes, shut up now. So I went to the supermarket for my one supermarket visit, which I only did one visit in the three days. But I went

SPEAKER_01 11:38

to the supermarket. I only looked out for two.

SPEAKER_05 11:39

Two days. Whatever. I didn't go on the first day like all the dumbasses who rushed to the fucking supermarket like their lives were coming to an end. Anyway. So I went to the supermarket the day after all the dumbasses had been there and so there wasn't much left.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

They cleaned the place out.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

They cleaned the place out. There wasn't much left. And so Melbourneers are going to understand what I'm about to say because I used to live in Melbourne and because my mother lived in Melbourne for 20 years and so I know Melbourne to a little degree. And when I went into the supermarket, I looked at the wall of bread and the wall of bread.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

It's called Wonderwall?

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Oh, shut up. Wonder Bread?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Wonderwall?

SPEAKER_05 12:20

Can you stop upstaging my fucking story? It's funny though. Stop talking.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Who was this band who did Wonderwall? Blurb. Blurb? No, you're my Wonderwall. No,

SPEAKER_05 12:33

it's those two Gallagher fuckheads. Anyway, so stop it. Or I'll kill

SPEAKER_01 12:40

you. Okay, I'm quiet now.

SPEAKER_05 12:42

So I walk into the supermarket and the wall of bread is completely empty except for a smattering of shitty, fake, heat-in-your-oven baguettes, which are the devil's making, and two loaves of Glicks challah. Now, if you live in Victoria and you don't know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame, shame, as Darren Hinch would say. Shame on you. Shame on you.

SPEAKER_05 13:12

Because if you don't know Glick's Bakery and you don't know Hala, and Hala, which my mother calls blessed bread because it lasts for like 300 years and it tastes

SPEAKER_01 13:27

good. It's because of the high sugar content.

SPEAKER_05 13:29

Isn't it brioche? It's a kind of brioche, yeah, but it's so much better.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

It toasts like heaven.

SPEAKER_05 13:37

It

SPEAKER_01 13:38

comes out your toaster. All you do is you... No, no, no. All you do is you sit

SPEAKER_05 13:43

down with a bread knife... a butter knife and a stick of butter and then the bread. And you just, you hack the bread open, you put the butter on, you consume next and you do that until you die. Anyway, they had two loaves of that left because Adelaide fucking morons and they have no idea. Oh, they had a packet of Glicks bagels. They had a packet of Glicks bagels which I also, they had a heap of the bagels as well. I don't know why they buy all the other shit and they don't buy the fucking best bagels in Australia. So I bought a bunch of the bagels and I I

SPEAKER_01 14:15

like bagel boys better.

SPEAKER_05 14:17

Oh, just shut your face.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

They're good.

SPEAKER_05 14:19

Okay. Yep. No one cares. So

SPEAKER_01 14:21

what

SPEAKER_05 14:22

I'm saying is that Adelaide, you have stomped all over my fucking story and I don't love you anymore. No, this is a second episode running in a straight fucking row where I am officially taking applications. For new husband. No. Yes. Yes. Stomp on my

SPEAKER_01 14:41

stories and you are not worth shit. We've got half a loaf of challah left upstairs. We can go and celebrate. We

SPEAKER_05 14:46

have barely any because– God, I've eaten so many carbohydrates. I was talking to– I was listening to a podcast and the guy was asked what did he want to do? What did he want for next year? And, you know, with Biden and blah, blah, blah. And he was like, I'd really like to know what it feels like to not be full.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Not be full.

SPEAKER_05 15:09

Because he's just eating all the time. And that's what I feel like. It was just all anxiety. First it was anxiety. Panic eating. Then it was anxiety eating. Then it was like frustration eating because it was so hard downstairs. And then it was relief eating.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Mine is always just cleaning up eating. I don't like anything left around. Oh,

SPEAKER_05 15:29

you're a fucking idiot.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

So let's let these people listen to Emily and we'll catch you after this wonderful little interview with our Emily Black from Victoria. Yes. Hello listeners, we're on the course this afternoon, this morning, whatever time of day you're listening to, to Melbourne, to Emily Black who's one of my favourite photographers in the Victorian world and she has Victorian, not Victorian as in Queen Victoria Victorian, as in the state of Australia, the state of lockdown, the state that's done it the hardest for our fabulous country because they've had the the biggest action with coronavirus and COVID-19 spread. So they've had it the hardest. And you guys are still really not clear. Why don't we come out talking about this straight away? It's the biggest thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 16:36

We weren't going to, were we? Not much anyway.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

We may as well talk about it now. It's a good

SPEAKER_06 16:42

day in Melbourne today, though, because we had zero cases.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Really? Yep.

SPEAKER_06 16:46

Yep. First day of... zero cases in I can't even remember how long so things are looking optimistic so

SPEAKER_01 16:55

and how have you felt that the like the government's response and everything being with it because you know you're a photographer right you're a people photographer wedding portraits yeah um newborns and that meant what does it meant to your business

SPEAKER_06 17:11

oh man I think um look It was a battle of head and heart, I guess, because you really wanted to be working, but you understood why you couldn't. And it was, I'm an empath, so I was feeling really broken hearted for everyone I couldn't photograph. I think about all of the people that are missed out on the memories that they couldn't get at the time. But having said that, I've got amazing clients that are understanding as well. So we're all in the same, you know, we're all in the same situation. We're all riding the same waves. So, yeah. As far as business goes, it was a great way to reassess things. You're sort of forced into looking inward and looking at how you pivot in a time when you can't do things the same way. So there was Zoom fatigue, though. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 18:03

and we're looking at each other over Skype. Well, I did that because I know you're sick of Zoom, so why not Skype this time? But yeah, no, it must be terrible. I mean, and your kids, have they coped okay looking into a screen?

SPEAKER_06 18:14

Well, they look into screens anyway, right? Oh,

SPEAKER_01 18:19

right. Yeah, good point. They're the experts.

SPEAKER_06 18:21

Oh, look, yeah, they coach really well. The kids are pretty resilient. And I think for the most part, everyone I've spoken to is quite quite resilient in how they've adapted to it all. It's not pleasant, but then growth isn't always pleasant. It's brought up a lot of things, what we value. So I think there's positives and negatives to it. But I think, yeah, to come out the end of it, the other side, and well, we're not out of it, but to come to the end of incredibly high numbers and worry, to see to see the sun shining and the light at the end of the tunnel, people's spirits are starting to lift again. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Do you feel that– and I certainly feel this here– there's a certain level of– like we kind of understand what to do now. We know what the drill is. Yeah. And so that– and we've opened up here and it's been kind of normal and that's been a bit scary too because you really quickly forget– these sorts of feelings that you probably still got. But there's also a little bit of confidence that we know we've got this thing, we know what to do, we know how to lock down, we know how to distance, we know how to wear masks. You know, have you got that feeling?

SPEAKER_06 19:36

Yeah, I think in one sense it feels a little bit of fatigue, just some of it. But Look, we're adapting. I'm a hugger, so I'm really missing hugging people. Like it's just, you know, I see people and you can sort of see this restraint that we all have where we just want to jump each other and have a big old hug and never let go. But I think we do, we know how to deal with this. We know what we've done is working. So we know that we know how to get on top of it again if things were to change. And I don't think... Yeah, I'm scared to think that maybe we won't have a third wave or whatever. But I think knowing that it was managed quite, not severely, that's not the word I'm trying to think of, but it was let's really lock this down and let's really sort it out. And coming at the end of that, you sort of go, all right, well, we know that we can do it. So, yeah, we just didn't like the rest of Australia, you know, Going out for beers.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I know. That's terrible. And waving it in your nose. I mean, every country that would have classed as being a successful response, or every place that classes a successful response to the pandemic has involved pretty severe lockdown. Yeah. And for a period of time, and then in that period of lockdown, they get an opportunity to build up the tracing and testing system. whilst keeping everyone safe. And I would hope that the time has been spent really well by the government in that sort of making sure you're tracing. Because that's the only way to then to be able to open up is if you can quickly test and quickly trace.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it seems like, you know, the fewer cases, the quicker they can get on top of where the mystery is, where the mystery cases are and things like that. So there is a confidence in how we slowly open up out of it that we've got it. sorted and we won't have to go back into where we were.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

So tell me, the businesses that you, I mean, you're also a leader in Victoria in that you're, you know, heavily involved with the Australian Institute of Professional Photography and you get to speak to everybody, hear everybody and you're now, you know, I'd I probably should have detected the fact that you're an empath. I've known you enough to sort of recognise that. But how have you felt everyone around you has dealt with it? Have we got an industry that's like decimated? Decimated means one in ten is out of business. Have we...

SPEAKER_06 22:12

There's definitely been closures. There's definitely been temporary closures at least. There's definitely been... loss of assets as far as maybe commercial spaces or things like that. But I think for the most part, the people that I've spoken to are very eager to not get back in the sense that, you know, doing hundreds and hundreds of jobs again straight up, but they're very excited about getting back to work because the people, the clients that they have are still there waiting. The fact that it was across the whole state and all of Metro Melbourne, look, there's been loss. I don't think it's decimated at all. I think that there's a brand new appreciation for exactly what photography offers, what it gives people. You know, I was talking last week about it and, you know, with the wedding industry, for example, there's going to be people that will go, you know what, I don't need Arnie Jones. you know, Aunty Frida from, you know, that I've seen once in my lifetime. I don't need her to come to my wedding but I need to have the photographer because then the people can have, we can have the professional photos. We've got them to share with everybody, you know. Photography is valued in a way that we haven't, we've become very, you know, blasé to what photography can offer because we've all got cameras on our phones and things like that. For professional photography, these moments that have been missed, people have realised just how valuable it is. So I think as things open up, there is that eagerness to really get back to hiring the professionals and I think it's shown already that it's that trend that in photography is definitely going to lift when we come out.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah, I can imagine. And, you know, the weddings are kind of bunching up. I mean, I'm sure, I don't know what the rates of separation after the wedding day goes, but if you think about these people having been in lockdown, there's a chance that some of that oh, we've just had enough of you, I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_06 24:33

Yeah, I actually do have some friends that have broken up during the lockdown, long-term relationships and things like that where they've really realised that, yeah, you know what, we can't actually ignore it anymore. So I guess there's been– but likewise, there's been people that have, you know, gotten engaged through it or have really realised I can't live without you, you know, and babies too. So, yeah, it's– I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

It's a truth moment, isn't it? It's a– It's a truth moment. It's where the truth comes out. And if you're going to be together, it's brought that up. If you are, it's brought that out. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I was worried that Victoria had a more oppressive, you know, like you guys would feel more broken than I feel that you're telling me you are. from it all. We really felt so bad because a lot of the language, and I suppose the problem is the social media and the energy that that generates. If someone is there being a bit whiny, which everyone has every right to be a bit whiny, and then it gets a pile on. And there's been a lot of that out of Victoria and a lot of, because that's how that Facebook works, you know, it's.

SPEAKER_06 25:44

Yeah. I don't look there. It's not to say there hasn't been. I mean, I've been down that road too. I've been really cranky and angry at the fact of, you know, it's not fair. I don't like being in this lockdown any longer. And I think that that is there and there are– it's not to say that people haven't lost business and haven't lost clients even. It's just that it's– I think that we– we are valued in a different way and we will rise out of it. People do value the photography so much more now, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, yeah. No, that's what I– I do feel that because they always say in, you know, perfume and chocolate always does well in difficult times. You know, these things that remind us of who we are and what's important and all that kind of stuff, they– They are things that rise. And I think photography, you know, it's a nostalgia and it's, you know, and it's all those things that sort of play so well. Yeah, no, I'm confident and I'm glad to hear that. Now, you had a bit of success too with the government in the definition of a mask. This is something you personally

SPEAKER_06 26:58

have. Oh, man, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

So tell us a bit about that.

SPEAKER_06 27:01

It's funny because it was, yeah, I sort of feel a bit, yeah, a bit lost at the moment because I'm like, what do I have to do now? It consumed me for so many weeks.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Oh, really? So this was all you could think about? Because, of course, yes, you can open up, you can do these sorts of things to some level, but no, you can't remove your mask. Like what kind of a family photograph is going to work with everyone in masks?

SPEAKER_06 27:22

Yeah, exactly. So it was, look, it was when the Stage 4 lockdown came into effect, you know, photographers all kind of shut up shop and And we knew that we wouldn't be getting back. But then we started to look at the roadmap out and what that was going to look like. And we were like, okay, well, people will book again and we'll get the sessions done and whatever that looks like, you know, with the distancing and how many clients we have per day or things like that. But then in the fine print, wearing a mask was not an– wearing a mask was– sorry, you weren't legally exempt from removing your mask for a photo, right? So that, of course, didn't make any sense at all. And because it was in the fine print, it could have been picked up and you had that photographic evidence that you'd taken a photo of someone that had taken their mask off and who's going to wear that fine and, you know, business can get fined and the poor clients are going to get fined. So, yeah, working with that. So there was a lot of emailing. There was a petition, which was a very... visual way of getting support and showing showing our entire profession across Victoria and I think it even spread further than that across Victoria what what not power what we could do as a body to actually make change for our entire profession across the state because it was different because regional Victoria had actually opened up but they were in a position where they weren't quite sure how that affected them, but they had to wear the masks too. So while Metro Melbourne hadn't returned to work, so we were working on having the masks removed for when we went back to work, regional Victoria was suddenly, oh, hang on, we can't actually take photos of people because they've got to wear their masks. So, yeah, there was a lot of emailing, a lot of contacts, a lot of, talking to one person which led to another person which finally led to the premier's office which finally led to photographers getting their names you know the word photography coming up in a press conference and I've never seen so much excitement of the word photography you know it was a Sunday afternoon and everyone said he just said photography and it was just like oh my god when we're known we're recognized it's amazing um and uh and yeah we so we um we then were able to get that exemption, which is like this convoluted little paragraph in the middle of a document hidden away in the fine print. But it just is the best paragraph I've ever seen recently just to get us back to work.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Isn't that interesting? Because I think whatever you guys have done is precedence for the rest of Australia because they say, oh, well, it worked in Victoria or it didn't work, whatever. So it is relevant to all policy going forward. And I noticed when that lockdown– and I'm thinking, was it July, August, when you guys, Victoria, really announced a decent seven-week or eight-week lockdown, whatever the hell it was.

SPEAKER_06 30:38

Yeah, it was July.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

July, fudge. Yeah. So when I saw that, I read some very specifics about film processing and– Because I'm reading through, trying to work out what might happen here if the same situation– and I figure the first state that gets to solving the problem or puts the law in place, the other states are going to copy it because that's the smartest thing to do. And it said that printing activities could happen but film processing couldn't happen. I'm going, okay, so someone has– got a definition and this is how it works someone must be applying and actually i wouldn't be surprised it wasn't carly or peter michaels from michael's camera because they've you know they had it particularly difficult in all sorts of things i mean they got good online business and they're stable but i i was watching their socials and all that kind of stuff seeing how they were handling it and I wonder if it was them who got this clarification because the big issue is Kodak medium format film when you lick paper to stick the paper down. Of course, yes. I know. Like how freaky is– and how odd is that? And so we immediately put a three-day quarantine on all incoming packages from interstate. Because, I mean, look, a film canister is a metal surface, a 35mm, may handle– it on there. So we're still doing that, but I was very curious. And when I read about this mask mandate, I just, it was like, duh, yeah, of course you can't freaking work. So how does that then flow on? And so to get that, so where do you start? Who do you, who did you first ring for this or write to? Who

SPEAKER_06 32:29

did I first talk to? There was Okay, so what was actually happening was there was a lot of photographers that were petitioning there or writing letters to their local members saying, I'm not sure that you're aware of this implication that we can return to work but we actually can't work. And it started to sort of drum up on social media, a few group chats and things like that saying it's not going to be able to work. Now, As the president of the AIPP in Victoria, I'm in a position where I can access, not access, I can having that body behind me, I'm able to maybe spearhead through some of the initial, I'm just Joe Blow from down the street that uses a camera and takes photos and I've got an ABN. But, you know, so I was representing all of the profession in putting it forward. So, yeah. So I contacted any minister I could think of that had any relevance at all to business or creative industries or my local member and that led to other and through our Facebook page as well, there was people that were contacting us, photographers saying, oh, hey, I know someone that works for Channel 10 or I know someone that, you know, here's their number, I can get you a contact here. So it was a real... a real community energy that was being lifted up within it. And then we just, one phone call led to another phone call, which led to somebody that was passing information on to somebody the Minister for Jobs and Precincts, and then there was John Ansell down in Gippsland Way. He was having an issue with school photography and whether that was going to be able to go ahead. So we joined forces a little bit on who are your contacts and who have you spoken to, and it ended up that there was two pivotal people within the government that we were able to just get our voices heard. And the great, I guess, validation from it was the fact that the Premier had said photographers and photography in press conferences meant that our information was getting to his desk. That's fabulous. So then we were like, right, spurred on, and we were like, we're not going to stop now, and finally worked through getting all of that information in there. So there was lots of lists of these are what we can do, this is how we can work safely, this is I'm not sure that they actually– masks being an issue. No,

SPEAKER_01 35:06

no, no. They wouldn't have thought about it. At

SPEAKER_06 35:08

all.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

They wouldn't. And they rely on this to happen.

SPEAKER_06 35:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

They rely on the responses to correct the legislation because who could sit down and think of every possibility?

SPEAKER_06 35:19

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so with all of that and I think just the consistent response You know, I found connections with, you know, our mate, I'm calling him my mate, Brett Sutton now, our chief health officer, you know. Yeah, he's my mate now because he's, like, signed off on a document that's got photographers working again. So, yeah, he's... It was, yeah, it was a real group effort, but it was a real... a really good way for our industry to come together and for the AIPP to prove that we're here to work for all photographers because we're actually passionate about our industry thriving from this.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Yeah, I'm so pleased. I really am. I mean, I've got a deep love with the AIPP and the thing is it has been beaten about a lot recently over the last few years, as everybody's has. And, you know, my biggest criticism has always been, well, always, but has been the last few years, is the focus on the awards, taking the money and energy away from being able to actually do proper change. And, you know, as the board in 2017, I think, when I was on, we were actually speaking with government ministers about, you know, accreditation at a government level. And that was just all taken away because... Effectively, the IAPP didn't want to follow this path of a broader thing and they wanted to sort of contract. And that was super disappointing. But what you've done is you've shown that this is a really relevant, you know, organisation because you can actually affect, you know, public policy.

SPEAKER_06 37:08

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what when– so we had– there was, you know, because I meet with the board and stuff once a month and there was when this– sort of was coming about. And this is the perfect, it's like the build it and they will come, you know. This is the perfect opportunity for us to really be seen to be fighting for our profession and not be about awards because it is the misconception that, or maybe it's not a misconception because awards are an important part of the AIPP, but there's so much else that we can give and we can offer and it's about that whole concept you know, as a professional body, we can, we can really benefit other members, other photographers, whether they're members or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

I think, I think the challenge with it is, I mean, it's, it's not actually that big an organisation. It feels big, but it's a bunch of people like Emily Black and Louise Bagger and that just hoping to get the next thing through and sorted. And when all the, all the, dollars and energy has to go into running an awards event, which is just there's so much energy to make a big thing like that happen. It kind of sucks it out. There's nothing left afterwards once that's done. Well, not a lot left. So it's up to people like you to make actions like that, which is, I suppose, the way it's always going to be, you know, that we all think that this, like the federal government is this huge, and it is a huge monster in some ways, but in many ways it's the person staying back late at night pushing a bill through or something. It's probably a reality of the situation. I just wish that there could be a little bit less attention on that sort of award side of it, more attention on it. But you've got to fight the membership on that. That's just what it is.

SPEAKER_06 38:57

But do you know what? I actually think that's what's happening. Awards are important and it's a great way to bring people together. But I think if... This whole pandemic has taught us anything. It is the value of actually just coming together to be together. And I think there's a lot more of that that will come through from it. So hopefully we continue along that same vein. And

SPEAKER_01 39:19

that's why I'll always support it because any time a group of people, a group of photographers want to get together, I 100% support the idea. I think we're always better. It's such a solo profession unless you can– you know, rally together. And that's what I love about the Institute.

SPEAKER_06 39:36

Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. The AIPP is the water cooler, you know, like it's where we come together and share stories about what we've been up to, you know. I used to work in press photography and newspapers and stuff and there was a great energy that happened in the room when, you know, after a shoot or, you know, a big story had broken and stuff, there was a real energy to the room and that's what, awards is kind of like but not just for the actual award part it's just people coming together and oh my god how how how did you get that photo you know and having that great conversation and um yeah that's what that's what it is for me so i

SPEAKER_01 40:14

love it i love it i'm so pleased so so let's just now you just touched on press photography i've got two questions about the press photography um uh first one when when was that how long sort of like how long it Did you run that for and was that like straight out of school or where did that all begin?

SPEAKER_06 40:33

All right. So in high school, I did media and photography and I was thinking I would go into journalism. That was where I sort of I like to write. I like to tell people's stories. I took a few photos as part of the media course in year 10. A teacher said, you've got a good eye. I kept taking photos and then pretty quickly I discovered that it was something that I loved and partly because I liked being in the darkroom and hiding away from people as well. I was the darkroom bitch. So I would like mix all the chemicals and all that kind of stuff and it was, you know, my realm. And then I went into photography studies college straight out of high school. And then straight out of PSC, I went straight into a job into newspapers.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Back when you could get a job in a newspaper.

SPEAKER_06 41:29

Back when you could get a full-time position as a photographer.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

So what years were this? So

SPEAKER_06 41:35

2000 is when I started working for News Limited. And it was, again, I was working in their print lab or they're processing all the films and stuff to start off with. And then as the trend shifted to digital, I was sort of there for seeing that through. So I started taking a few odd jobs with the camera doing the new babies that were born at the local hospitals kind of stuff. I did a bit of that first and then just slowly built my way into it. So after a couple of years in the lab and in the editing room and stuff, I was out on the road full time. So, yeah, it was pretty amazing. So I was there for about 12 years.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

12 years. Wow. So like 10 years as a photographer and a couple of years as a darkroom tech. That was a really interesting years, that transition from film processing and scanning, getting it on the wire straight to shooting digital and getting it out on the spot.

SPEAKER_06 42:40

Yeah, I remember thinking it would never take off.

UNKNOWN 42:44

Really?

SPEAKER_06 42:44

Because when I was at uni there was like those very first digital cameras were coming out and I was like, oh, I just don't think people will want to go down that road because the technology is not there yet and, you know, we can't get the same tonal ranges that we can get in the film. Yeah. Yeah, the very first cameras couldn't, but they were quick. They got you. They were able to get the work. And it was only the elite photographers within the organisation that had the digital cameras to start off with and then they slowly started to phase them in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Yeah, it

SPEAKER_06 43:21

was just weird, man. Like I was teaching guys that had photographed the Beatles and stuff like that. I was teaching them how to scan film to put into the newspapers, you know. It was just bizarre. Thinking back on it, it's just like, nah, this is just odd.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

So what scanners were you using? Were you using the Kodak scanners?

SPEAKER_06 43:40

They were the Fuji scanners, I think. Were they? Yeah, because we used Fuji film.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 43:47

So

SPEAKER_01 43:48

what paper was it you were working at?

SPEAKER_06 43:51

I was working for News Limited, but the local northern newspaper conglomerate. So it was like the younger cousin or the baby sister or whatever you want to call it of the Herald Sun or whatever. So we would feed some stories into them depending on– how big they were. But, yeah, we were out, you know, capturing the 60th wedding anniversary or the local, you know, local primary school celebration or, you know, some sort of high, you know, drug bust or something like that. The day could consist of just about anything. It was a great opportunity to think on my feet.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

So, like, how did you get on as an empath in press photography? Because... Gosh, I mean, like you just seeing everything. And I remember speaking to a guy here in Adelaide, Brian Charlton, who photographed Bradley John Murdoch, you know, the serial killer. And I don't know if he's a serial killer, but the murderer. And he said when John Murdoch looked Bradley Murdoch down my lens, he said, I felt... this guy i felt that i felt death i felt evil he sort of never felt the same way with any other job i've done and you know like he still recount that to this day um if you ask him what is most memorable like how do you cope with that

SPEAKER_06 45:19

um oh you know what i think and it's i i've done volunteer work with heartfelt and stuff as well so um I think when I've got the lens, when I've got the camera up, I can detach myself enough. There's enough of a barrier there for me to be work Emily and not necessarily take it in. The scary part for me is then when I'm sitting alone with the images and realising what I've taken. So as an empath, I will wear it, but I can, if I've got, I need to debrief it. So once I've debriefed it, it's okay. It's out of my head. It's out of, out of that space and then I can move on from it. Not to say that there hasn't been sessions that have really affected me and shoots that have really affected me, but I was doing a job. So there has to be a certain element of compartmentalisation with it. But, yeah, I definitely would hug my kids tighter or, you

SPEAKER_01 46:21

know,

SPEAKER_06 46:22

have a... Slightly larger glass of wine at the end of

SPEAKER_01 46:26

the day. And do you still do work with heartfelt?

SPEAKER_06 46:30

I don't, no, no. There's too many other things going on in the world at the moment with my family and stuff like that. So I can't really commit to shooting for them. But you'd be comfortable. But I'm a supporter, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

You'd still be comfortable doing the work because that's, I mean, I'm not suggesting that people that do that are not empathic in any way, but, oh, man, it could break you.

SPEAKER_06 46:50

I think a lot of them are empathic and I think that's actually what makes it so good, what makes them so good at the job. But, again, they're really great in having that, the people there to talk about the sessions and things like that. There's a great importance on the people's mental health and not... being overwhelmed by it all. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

It's a fabulous network. And I think there's a lot that happens behind the scenes from that, you know, people supporting each other and keeping an eye open, an eye on one another.

SPEAKER_06 47:33

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't shoot for them anymore, but a lot of the photography– my photography community, the people that I've, you know, my colleagues, I guess, they do still work for them and I'm in a position where I can talk through things with them because I've had a shared experience. I've been in that position. So, yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

So with your role as, excuse me for saying it, but darkroom bitch, does that mean you were a little bit introverted as well with things?

SPEAKER_06 48:05

I think I... I am an introvert in the truest sense of the word. I'm very social when I'm around people, but when I'm spent, I'm spent. I have to hide away for a while. The darkroom was a great way to, yeah, I guess hide away. You'd be out shooting and you'd have to be switched on, but in the darkroom you could kind of just go into your own little world, put the music on and off you went, you know. But yeah, I was a bit of a control freak in there too. So if people were leaving things in the developer for too long or... Not

SPEAKER_01 48:43

cleaning up.

SPEAKER_06 48:44

Oh my God, not cleaning up.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Don't you love how photographic chemistry, it looks fine until you realise a couple of days later that all the stains, they may appear afterwards. It's like

SPEAKER_03 48:55

it's... Yeah. It's

SPEAKER_01 48:57

a real trip. So with those sorts of characteristics as a photographer, do you find that... you know, sort of a constant pressure of a lot of work is hard because you're not getting enough downtime afterwards?

SPEAKER_06 49:12

Yeah, and I think that's where I was already heading at the start of this year before all of the lockdowns and pandemic anyway. I was already starting to shift my workload, being really– careful in what I was taking on and allowing myself enough breathing space between people sessions and also because I've got a newfound love for well not newfound I've revisited my love of nature and landscapes and that's the time that I can do that's my dark room time I guess it's that time that I can kind of switch on the being present in the moment kind of stuff and it's yeah it It allows me that space to breathe.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

I do love your Instagram when you do get out, try and get out every day, I gather, and get that. So you're trying to blend photography and outdoors, I notice, with one of the lines of products that you're sort of offering.

SPEAKER_06 50:15

Is that right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

What do you call it and what's the story there?

SPEAKER_06 50:19

What do I call it? You

SPEAKER_01 50:22

haven't worked that out yet.

SPEAKER_06 50:24

I guess not. I'd never thought about it until now, thanks Paul. Yeah, look, I've always loved nature. So when I was a little tiny little baby, my first camping trip was when I was about 10 weeks old or something like that apparently. So there's a lot of places that I... nostalgically reflect on and I try and recapture in some of the photos that I take. So I would call myself a nostalgic landscape photographer. I'm trying to recreate that moment from my youth kind of thing. And looking at it as now looking at those things through parent eyes as well. So there's been nothing more exciting than watching my kids love those spaces as well now. So I was taking photos because I couldn't get out as far through the lockdown. I was, you know, stuck in my bubble of 5Ks or whatever it was. I was noticing the little things a bit more. So I was focusing on the details, the nature, the native flowers, the native wildlife that I've discovered and things like that. So photographing a lot of that stuff. collecting some of that while i'm out on my walks and you know re-photographing it when i got home and stuff and then it was turning into products so there's i'm a very tactile person as well so um i i like to be able to touch and feel which is why i love print so much i can i can touch it and feel it and hold it um and i'd always toyed with the idea of making I don't know, tea towels or something because as a child, my mum would have like the fancy tea towels out, you know, where she'd hang them up and have the fancy tea towels on the wall and she'd buy the tea towel with the calendar on it, which was up there for, you know, too long. And then so I decided to create a few of those kinds of things for myself as well and see what would happen from that. I also delved into the whole cyanotype thing as well, so printing on fabrics and stuff like that and, you know, Yeah, that was a great sort of experiment to do through lockdown with all that extra time. So revisiting all of that and turning them into products and selling them on and making little postcards and things like that of, you know, what's... you know, my local treasures and things like that. So it's been a way to– it's the time. I've had the time to do that that I haven't had previously, which has allowed me also to pivot again in the business sense and turn something that I love into something that other people can have too.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Yeah, yeah. No, that's really smart. And I suppose it's all guilt-free this year. Yeah. Because, you know, you could just sit back and drink the whole year through. I've been drinking. You got that one ticked,

SPEAKER_06 53:27

have you? There's been plenty of that going on as well. Yeah, and look, I think also noticing how many people are sort of wandering past the house, going for their daily walks, things like that. I did this little thing where I had exhibition in the window, in my window, which you guys printed

SPEAKER_01 53:42

a whole bunch for. I saw that. A little window show.

SPEAKER_06 53:46

Yeah, I sort of change my photos over every, I don't know, few days, week, whatever, change it over in the window. And so for the locals that are walking past, they'll sort of spot it and I've got a little hashtag written down so they can search me up and have a look. It's been really fun. It's been a conversation starter for a lot of people as they've wandered by because now I sit outside and have my coffee in the morning on the front porch and people are like, oh, I love seeing these photos. It's been another way to just entertain myself because you know how there was at the start, I don't know if you guys did it over there, but there was teddy bears in the window and rainbows in the window and all that kind of stuff and I'm like, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to think of something fun for my community that I can, you know, enjoy myself. So I put photos in the window. Started with APA prints and, you know, Victorian prints and things like that, and then I started to photograph again and get things printed specifically for it. Well,

SPEAKER_01 54:47

that's such an exciting thing. I mean, you've got choices at this stage, and I think sometimes those choices– really tell you about yourself and what, are you doing the right thing? Yeah. And I think that you've got, you know, you've got your career, you know what, who you are and what you are because it's just been reflected in this sort of activity.

SPEAKER_06 55:08

Yeah, look, I think we've got, you know, we've got a choice in how we, how we move through times like this and we can, we can sit and be really spiteful and angry at the world or we can bring joy to it with what we have and I think that's I'm a glass half full kind of person so I like to be able to find the positives and the good energies. I get really eaten down by the negative stuff, so I have to limit the time on social media and stuff like that. So being able to give something and bring smiles to people is everything for me. I

SPEAKER_01 55:47

mean, it could be a lost year, and I think for a lot of people it's going to be. And look, most of that would probably be their circumstance. They're not as lucky as you and I. Yeah. to have that. But, you know, you really do have a choice in this. And I've seen some fabulous responses. I mean, Nick Jonas, you know, opening up his– His chicken shop. One of his first loves, his chicken shop. And I so wish I could go there because

SPEAKER_06 56:11

I know– It's in my 25K now. I can go there.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Oh, great. I know I've beaten at Spitka before and absolutely loved it. And I know the family knows what they're doing. I hope it doesn't mean he's– Photography is really going to take a back seat for him. I

SPEAKER_06 56:26

don't think so. I hope not.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

No, I hope not too because he's an absolute gem.

SPEAKER_06 56:31

Yeah. I think he loves what he does too much to not keep going with photography. But, yeah,

SPEAKER_01 56:37

yeah. Super exciting. So tell me what was happening leading up to this year. Like you obviously were looking for a change, right? in it so you'd been what had you been doing that sort of pushed you to the point where you thought I gotta I gotta do something different

SPEAKER_06 56:55

um I think it's just well maybe it's being in my 40s now and I'm just slowing down I don't know um it's it's circumstance I think you sort of family life and things like that you know I've got my parents are quite not quite old, but, you know, my mother's not well. My dad's starting to become unwell as well. You start to value, okay, I need to work, like time is really important to me to spend with these people. How can I work in a way that I get the most, not bang for my buck, but how can I work in a way that feeds that as well? So Um, I was, and I think because of the nostalgia of, you know, watching my, watching my mum decline. So she's got Parkinson's and dementia and she's, you know, so I'm watching her decline and, um, It brings about the memories. So you're starting to look over old photos and things like that, which then was revisiting those places that I used to love to go because we would always do a Sunday drive. So there was always the, you know, the landscapes and dad would chase trains like big steam train fans. So we'd chase these steam trains around, you know, Victoria and stuff. I used to hate it. Oh, come on. Oh, my God.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

How can you hate a train that goes choo-choo?

SPEAKER_06 58:12

Well, yeah, they do. But when you're 13 or something like that and you're dragged along and you're like, oh, God, I just want to stay

SPEAKER_01 58:20

at home. All you want is 90210 or something.

SPEAKER_06 58:24

Absolutely. But I think in hindsight you have the appreciation for what that was, what that time was. And so revisiting that, I knew that, my priorities had to change a little bit. And because I guess I do get drained spending a lot of time with a lot of people. So I did have to, and being part of the AIPP too in the council, that takes a lot of time and people time. So I knew that I had to somehow manage it so that I wouldn't burn out. So the photography just started to shift more into photographing not people. So... And look, I've been doing it long enough and I've been in my own business for long enough that I don't really have to actively push for new clients and things like that. So I've got that steady flow of clients that are loyal to me. So word of mouth is, you know, that key component to it. So I don't necessarily have to be actively searching for people to be shooting, you know, many shoots in any given week so I can start to phase that back and that's not to say that I probably won't pick things up again in 10 years time when my kids are older and they're looking after themselves a lot more but yeah it's a self care thing I think and allowing myself the time to sit with it but yeah I guess I do have that comfort and that the the advantage of having been in it for so long and having the loyal customers and the loyal clients that I don't have to necessarily stress about will I will I still have a you know the clients in a year or whatever

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

so you've got you've gotten to that point where it was just it just you know, you needed to be doing something a little different. Yeah. And to fit in with your family life and everything, which completely makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:33

Yeah. Look, it's quality over quantity. You know, I'd rather do, you know, half a dozen sessions in a month and have really beautiful client relationships because I invest as much of myself into the sessions that I do as they do in being part of them. You know, yeah, so what was I saying? Yeah, it's really important to manage that as well. I would rather have the quality in the relationships and things like that and have the energy to be able to give all of myself in each session.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Yeah, yeah,

SPEAKER_06 1:01:08

yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

So what would your 25-year-old Emily Black right now, you know, so the beginning of your career, what would you be– what would you do? I mean, there's a lot of people like– You're an influential person. You're president of ARPP Vic. There's a lot of young members and all that kind of stuff, and they'd probably be looking at things going, what do I do next sort of thing. What would a 25-year-old Emily Black be tackling next?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:37

Oh, 25-year-old Emily Black. Who wasn't Emily Black then because she wasn't married?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Oh, Emily then. We'll just call her Emily.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:45

We'll just call her Emily.

UNKNOWN 1:01:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:50

Do you know what? I think it's know that it's whatever your heart is calling out for you to do, it's okay to give it a go. So whatever that might look like, it might be wedding photography or talk to anyone, talk to anybody. Talk to everyone that you can talk to that's been in the industry for longer than you. I was so lucky at 25. I had people that had been in photography for 30 years, you know, that were my colleagues. You know, like I said, it was people that had photographed mega superstars and the Queen and the Beatles and all of that kind of stuff. I had that available to me. Utilise those people. Don't... Don't rely on your immediate peers that have been in it for as long as you. I think in the Facebook groups, you've got a lot of people that are asking a lot of questions. Oh, what do I do now? And what's the next step? And how should I respond to this? And I'm unsure of myself. And it comes down to mentoring or being mentored by somebody who's been doing it a lot longer than you and who is... has shown consistency within the industry. Yeah, I think– I don't know. What was next?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

It's really hard because, you know, I was just– I've seen a lot of pressure from– It's knowing that things

SPEAKER_06 1:03:26

are going to change, you know. Things are always going to change and you're going to have to evolve. And I think that's the one lesson I think I've had is at 25, if I had have been told that, you know, you'll be– predominantly newborn and maternity photographer or you'll go and shoot landscapes again, I would have laughed at you. I was a press photographer. I was a photojournalist. That's what I was. Things are going to evolve and you're going to grow and change with it and you've got to allow yourself to grow with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Do you think kids these days– I just sound like an old person now. Do you think kids have a better self-awareness? Because I think what you're telling me is you've gotten to the age that you're at and you've gotten to quite a level of self-awareness of what you need to do to be happy and to be functional and you've worked it out to some extent for now. I think, I know, as you said, everything changes, but you've got a good beat on it. Whereas I don't know, I certainly at my 25, I had no idea. I thought I did. I think, I feel my kids who I've got a 17 and a 16 year old, I feel they got a pretty good idea of who they are and what they need to do. It's just really interesting, isn't it? Because like they've got advantages that we don't have. we've probably encouraged them to speak to a therapist if they need to. Our parenting is a little bit more alert. Our little radars are up to this sort of stuff because we've been through it ourselves in some ways. And I think our kids are in a better spot to understand what they perhaps need to do and we don't perhaps need to tell them. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:12

Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, 25-year-old Emily was certainly very insecure and not sure, was very eager to get validation from other people and, you know, you did a good job. You know, 42-year-old Emily doesn't really care so much about that and as long as I love it and I love what I'm doing, then, you know, I'm on the right path. I'm all about aligning with the right people now, aligning with the people that are working with me, and I think I'm trying to instil that in my kids. And I think, I don't know as a whole if children feel like that or, you know, because my kids are 10 and 12, but I would hope that I can encourage them to be secure enough in who they are that they don't need to seek validation from other people or outside sources, but to rather align themselves with people that don't necessarily see the world in the same way as them, because I think having differing opinions and differing political views and things like that, I think that's important, but to have the same sort of core values value of respect and how people grow and understanding that people do grow and change and evolve and things like that. So, yeah, I hope kids... come out of it with that. I don't know. I

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

don't know. I just got a sneaking suspicion. Well, I mean, again, my kids are incredibly privileged, but I see them and their friends and the only thing that seems to be getting in their way is dopey parents. And, you know, parents that are just trying to hang on to how they grew up and apply that to the child. Like they're not open-minded. They're almost like afraid of what the kids are learning. And my kids have got some pretty– like they've got a friend– my youngest got a friend who's homeless and she's basically putting herself through a– it's not a full-on private school as in an Anglican or Catholic school, but it's a university college. And she's putting herself through it. And she's 15 and she's living in a hostel– You know, and she's doing it and this kid's smart and she's sharp and she's, you know, reasonably balanced. Like how, what, 15? I know, right? Disaster. So let's just apply this sort of thinking. Now, you talked about the importance of mentoring, which I do agree with you, but I've also seen– the people that sort of can get into mentoring roles. And we've seen– let's wind back 10 years. There's been some mentors that are disasters that as a mentee or a mentos or whatever the person who goes to a mentor, they've done exactly what the mentor said and these people have been left with no business.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:10

Well, yeah, I think when I say mentor, I guess it's listening to advice that people have. It doesn't have to be one person. You know, like I could have aligned myself with a couple of older people in the industry and I would have not been the same person I am now. But I think the value I have is that and the value I've gained is talking to different people in different spaces and how they do different things and understanding that I don't have to do it their way. Gotcha. I think a lot of the education programs and stuff that are out there, people are committed to being another version of that teacher. Right. And that's not going to work. And the time I figured it out was when people were– I'm not an in-person salesperson. And once I established that, unless I was going to hire someone to do in-person sales, it was not for me. That was not what I was going to do. I had to work what sat with me and sat right with me and also understanding my story and how it affects how I run my business. And so what I'm going to put out there is what I'm going to attract back. And that's what I was trying to always do. Once I figured that out, business became so much easier because I didn't have to try and be, mimic a style of somebody else's or do the same setup as somebody else's. I was able to, yeah, I was able to use my story to connect with the people that I was photographing, which meant that every session was so easy because I wasn't trying to win someone over to some style that wasn't me.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God, like... My objective with this podcast and what we're doing is to speak to people, relevant people, right? To talk about relevance. And the penny dropped with me as you were saying that because this year, the thing that shocked me the most this year as a lab who's seeing the people like yourselves, whether you'd be in lockdown or not in lockdown or whatever, but clearly the brakes are on as far as in-person anything goes. Success I've seen... Because the fear is if you don't do in-person sales, you're screwed. And it's just rubbish. The world has moved on. I'm not saying in-person sales are a bad thing, but it is just one other tool in the tool chest. Now, you might be able to get more money through in-person sales, but I think there's a fair, reasonable likelihood that it will be at the expense of a repeat customer if you're not super duper careful. Yeah. Because I don't think people want to be sold to in the way that they used to think they did or they used to want to be.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:10

Yeah. I mean, whenever I try, I did try doing in-person sales, but I was always so cautious with it because I hated being in that position being sold to, you know, Oh, you should do this and you should get this. And that's people that do that. Well, I'm in awe of them. It's just not how I can work and that's the key. If you're doing it well and that's how you work in your business in in-person sales, then more power to you, that's great. But if you're good at it, do it. If you're not good at it, don't keep plugging on trying to be good at it because you're What aligns with you is what's going to work for you. So, yeah, once I figured that out, everything was so much easier. So

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

how long ago do you think you came to that realisation? I

SPEAKER_06 1:12:06

reckon at least five or six years ago. It wasn't that long into what I would call my business now. Yeah. Because I'd done workshops, I'd done workshops with different photographers and things like that and there was a lot of emphasis on how you sell and I could just feel my back get you know tensed up with it all because it's like oh I can't do that I don't like it I don't you know when I when my daughter was tiny I did one of those pixie photo sessions kind of thing because I was like I need to know what this feels like from the other perspective and it just made me cringe the whole way through and I didn't want that for any of my clients because I'm about that relationship. And once I figured out that I didn't have to do it somebody else's way, I just had to figure out what worked for me. And, yeah, it became so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

That's fascinating. And can I ask the question now? Has that been a sustainable thing for your business?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:10

Yeah, it has because I work on a package basis. So I keep it really simple. There's, you know, like about three different packages. It's really simple. I know what's in them. People can adapt those if they want to. They know how much they're up for. I know how much I'm up for. I know if I book a session, I'm probably going to make X amount of dollars and I can work on that. on a month by month basis. You know, if I book a couple of sessions a month, I'm probably going to make this much money. And there's a predictability to it. Whereas if I was doing in-person sales, I might have a massive sale or I might not. So there's, yeah, I like the consistency of it. I would sort of rather know how much I'm likely up for in a month in booking the sessions rather than trying to then sell on. And also with selling, doing in-person sales and things like that, it was another appointment time that I would have to commit to. Costs. Yeah. So it was just, it became irrelevant to me to do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

Wow, that's so cool. And look, I've kind of, I've known it, but it's just you've helped, you know, put it together in my head a little bit better. And you don't feel like you're leaving any money on the table, quote unquote. It's not–

SPEAKER_02 1:14:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

Yeah. That's fabulous. That's really interesting. So that's great advice. If a person can really know themselves and then look around at using mentors and education to pick what they feel they want to do– and then add that into their own thing. That's the best advice for a young player, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:59

Yeah, yeah. Most of the mentoring and the workshops and things that I do now is about pointing the finger back on yourself and figuring out what it is that makes you tick. And once you've figured that out, then you know who your people are that you want to attract to you. So it's all based on that. The energy that you put out is the energy that you attract back. So if you're putting that out there, you're going to attract the right people to you. You're not going to have clients that you– don't want and you can feel confident in saying no to somebody if they're not your person to photograph and then the job satisfaction ratio just goes through the roof.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So your marketing efforts really, and you do a great job on Instagram and Facebook, but your efforts are about maintaining that because you told me you're a word of mouth. You're working with repeat clients. So you're just keeping that community going. Is that your objectives?

SPEAKER_06 1:15:57

Yeah, pretty much. Like I said, it's what I'm putting out there is the people that I want to attract back. So whatever, you know, the clients that I've got are my– They're my friends in a sense. You know, they're not as close to me as my, you know, my inner tribe. But it's about building that, keeping that conversation going with people. You know, I can see the people that are connecting with the images that I've put out are the people that I've been photographing for years. You know, I've got one client that I photographed her engagement, her wedding, three births, three baby photos. you know, all the way through. Like I've photographed them and that's what I basically tell any new client is I'm like, once you've booked me, this is kind of it. Like we're going to be friends forever now. And they, because of the relationship that they have, then they obviously are going to refer that on to people that they know. And it's, yeah, it's effortless marketing because I don't have to, I just put out what I love. and keep the conversation going with my clients and they do all the hard work for me. It's really, really lazy marketing, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:15

Do you ever sit back and do you think that, oh man, I should up it a bit, I should up my game, then I'd be in a better position, I could pay this off quicker or own this? Oh God,

SPEAKER_06 1:17:26

yeah. Yeah, I think... Well, we all kind of get into that position, don't we, where we kind of, if I just worked a little bit harder and I worked a little bit longer and marketed it a little bit differently or did something another way, then I could probably, you know, tick a few things off. I could pay the car off sooner. I could, you know, put more money on the mortgage or whatever. But it's my mental... I know myself mentally well enough to know that I can't sustain that for a very long period of time. And I would rather work, I'd rather, it's like a marathon, I'd rather run a little bit longer than try and push it too hard, too fast and, you know, pull a hammy or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

Yeah, totally get it. So, look, last question because we're on the hour,

SPEAKER_06 1:18:15

huh? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

What's next for you, Emily? What are you going to do? What are you chasing?

SPEAKER_06 1:18:21

World domination. No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

You've just said that you're not going for world domination. You've just said that.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:27

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:27

I don't believe you.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:30

What's next? Do you know what? I actually really don't know. And I think that's kind of the exciting point that I'm at at the moment. I think there'll definitely be a continuation of photographing more nature, more... more landscapes or that kind of thing. I'll definitely be doing a lot more of that, but I could never not photograph people and I'll just, you know, continue along with sort of how I'm trudging along at the moment. Yeah, I really don't know what the next couple of years is kind of going to look like, but I'm excited to find out.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:13

Oh, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:14

Oh,

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

that's a great answer. I'll take that. Excellent. I'll take that. I won't hassle you anymore for more definition. It's unkind, I know, especially after everything you've been through. So, look, we'll leave it now, but I just want to, on behalf of all the Australians, thank you for being a Melbourneite and doing what you've done. Thank you for helping the definition of mask wearing for us. You've set a precedent, which means...

SPEAKER_06 1:19:39

Yeah, I do hope that that's what happens. If any of the state falls, you know, into a position where they need to... fall on something else. I hope that we've offered a glimmer of hope for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:51

Oh, a hundred percent. I, I, I, you know, having, I mean, the guys in the government are, they're overwhelmed like you would have to be because just on the AIPB board, I remember all the cries for help from all these different people. I need this. You must do that. You know, cries for help, demands, all that kind of stuff. They must be flying at them thick and fast. And I, the easiest thing to do is to go, well, whatever they did is right. It seemed to work there. And let's just copy and paste, Command-C, Command-V. And so I feel that you genuinely have made something good for all of us in that mask. As long as it doesn't result in the spread of COVID through the photography, you know, vector.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:33

Wear your masks. Wear your masks.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

Wear your masks. Yeah, yeah. Stay distant and wear your mask. Put a longer lens on your camera.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:40

That's exactly right, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:42

Yeah, well, Emily, thanks. It's been really lovely speaking to you and wish you all the best. Thank you.

UNKNOWN 1:21:00

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

Bye. Welcome back, listeners. That was Emily Black.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:03

It was. She's a clever little rabbit, that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:05

Yeah, and the mask, her big... Well, not the main reason why I called her, but I wanted to speak to her because she personally and her team of AIPP members and friends in Victoria, when they first are allowed to go and work, they could work, but everyone had to wear masks. Now, a photographer taking a photo wearing a mask is fine, but the family in front of the camera or the bride and groom or... The people they're photographing in front of the camera can't have a mask on. No, that doesn't make sense. I mean, you might have one photograph with a mask on to talk about the times. And the rules were pretty clear. So what she did is she spoke to a local member with the power of her presidency, state presidency of AIPP or whatever. I think it's state president still, yeah. Our dear leader, or whatever they've renamed the presidents to. And she... got the MP and then she actually ended up hearing on the television that the Premier mentions photographers specifically suggesting that the news got all the way up the top, which I suppose is how all this legislation works. They say everyone must do this and then everyone rings them and goes, I can't do it because... And if it's valid, they make those exceptions. So that was a really cool...

SPEAKER_05 1:22:27

And, you know, I... It's funny because you and I are our little yings and yangs and... We're always at opposite corners of things. But I am a vicious critic of the ARPP and you are a great adorer

SPEAKER_01 1:22:42

of the ARPP. I'm a critic too. I criticise.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:44

Yeah, but you've given an enormous amount of time and energy for which some members of the ARPP have thanked you for and many haven't. I'm

SPEAKER_01 1:22:53

happy.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:53

I'm your wife though. Thank

SPEAKER_01 1:22:56

you,

SPEAKER_05 1:22:56

baby. So that's I go riding in on a horse of rage and fury. That's right. And I think the thing that frustrates me is that I think the IRPP, for those who aren't in it, is often seen as really just being about the awards. And the awards, I think, is very problematic for a whole host of reasons. And the sad thing is that then the– thing that I think the IRPP is actually useful for and valuable for is things like this, where she can go in and bat for the industry and actually have a massive impact on people's ability to earn money and to continue their art and their skill and everything else. And it's a real pity because it's the kind of thing that I think any photographer would be like, oh, that's fucking great. Yes, thank you. Brilliant. And so all the members will benefit from it, but so will all the people who aren't members. Or the industry. Yeah. And it would just be lovely if there was more of that and if people saw the– if the ARPP was and people saw the ARPP for that kind of activity and not for, you know, a lot of the– behavioral issues they've had and a lot of all the other crap which we don't have to go into but um yeah it was really impressive that she did that and she's she's a i didn't realize her the sheer depth and breadth of her photographic

SPEAKER_01 1:24:36

yeah experience and knowledge yeah my god like and what an era to be a press photographer introducing digital to because it was one of the in many ways it was the first place digital made sense because the news stories could go straight to wire. But there was such reluctance to change over from a lot of press photographers because if you're a good press photographer, it's not anything about really your understanding of the technology. It's your ability to wait for images and to predict what's going to happen. And that's experience and time. So naturally those people are going to have– to know their tools and trust them and that's it. They don't want to muck around. And digital in the early days was mucking around. Yeah, but it was

SPEAKER_05 1:25:19

also so awful. Oh, wasn't it? I was one of the last people hanging on to film because I fucking– You're still hanging on to film. I love film. Yeah. I love it. I'm a builder here. Yeah, but I remember the days because it really was around when we got married, 2000– God, I was so old. But 2000, we had this like do we get digital, do we do a digital wedding, do we do film?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

Wedding coverage,

SPEAKER_05 1:25:50

yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it was very much the marketplace was very much are you film or are you not? And it was like 50-50 and it was like you put your stake in the ground for one or the other. And I was, because I am I think in some ways actually quite conservative, I was like… No fucking way am I doing digital because it just– I hadn't once seen one image that I didn't hate and so we had it all– Especially

SPEAKER_01 1:26:19

skin tones. It was a real struggle with getting skin tones not looking– Oh, my God. Everybody looked like lobsters. Plasticky.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:24

Yeah, it was just dreadful. Yeah. It took so long. People have no clue. how fucking bad it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:32

And it was different for, I mean, commercial guys and cars and that. Yeah, that was all pretty fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:37

Yeah, because you had this huge thing that was the size of a fucking tissue box that you could stick on a tripod and it could take as long as it fucking wanted to take a super sharp photo while you had your bloody car in its fake sunset.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

I mean, they had their own sort of nightmares but the photography of people and the rendering of skin tone. Yeah. People jumped out and used it straight away, but my God, it took a long time to get claw back to looking as good as Bill. It was brutal.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:01

So I get that they were reluctant.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:04

Yeah. And so her job was really to help the people into that world, which was she first was scanning, of course, and scanning was going for probably 10 years before that. So she's had some pretty seriously great experiences. And

SPEAKER_05 1:27:17

she's a fucking rock climber, which she didn't

SPEAKER_01 1:27:18

say. Yeah, she didn't say. I didn't know she was a rock

SPEAKER_05 1:27:20

climber. I'm sure she's a rock climber. I'm sure she told me that she's a rock climber. Emily, you have to tell us if we're wrong or right. I'm sure she told me she's a rock climber. There's no going back from that. I'm sure she told me her and her husband, boyfriend, one of the two. Or a combination of both. Wow,

SPEAKER_01 1:27:35

there's a whole lot of things here.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:36

No, they have rock climbing. I'm sure she told me at a baby summit one time it slipped out and I was like, I am so impressed that you're a fucking rock climber. And, you know, it's always those little people that can be rock climbers. You put me on a fucking rock, I peel off like a piece of– oh, jeez,

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

that's the end of it. We've got a friend, David, who's a rock climber who's taller than both of us. Yeah, but

SPEAKER_05 1:27:58

he's a freak. He's just made out of like– Three tied together muscles.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:06

It was. Anyhow, whether she's a rock climber or not, she's a rock star. How about

SPEAKER_05 1:28:11

that? Oh,

SPEAKER_01 1:28:12

that's good. Emily's a rock star.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:13

So have you got a moment of colour? No. Oh, you fucking idiot. It was too hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:18

Really? My brain was fried. I had myself thinking about things last week, but I have to say no, my dog ate my homework.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:29

Oh, honey.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:30

Yeah. You

SPEAKER_05 1:28:30

should have said I could have made some shit up.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:33

Well, you still can if you want to make something

SPEAKER_05 1:28:35

up. Oh. No, I got nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:37

You got nothing. Well, then let's leave these lovely people till next week, okay, or next episode because there's more than a week. We're going to go and eat

SPEAKER_05 1:28:42

small place bread.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

There's a good idea. You know what we should do? We should go up and watch some more telly, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:47

Yeah. I was going to keep working on the new website. I'm building a new website, people. It's so sexy.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:53

Yeah, and I was going to do more paperwork for our lovely staff to come in tomorrow morning. Well, maybe we should stay down here for a while. No, I just can't. Really? I can't. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've got to go up. And then what my point is, we've got small telly.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:07

What's the episode of The Crown?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:10

And then we can– and I'll have a cup of tea. We'll make some of that blessed bread toast. God, if I eat any more

SPEAKER_05 1:29:15

calories, I'm going to fucking pop. I've got– Trainer in the morning and he's going to beat my head in.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:21

You know what's going to be worse than the trainer? It's the staff coming in to find the mess we made.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:26

Correct, but we're going to resolve that. And do you know how we're going to do that, Paul?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:30

Hide?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:31

No, we're going to buy them pizza. Did you call the pizza place?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:34

Oh, I booked pizzas. Did

SPEAKER_05 1:29:35

you?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

I booked five 18-inch pizzas. Family size? Yeah, the big ones. Okay,

SPEAKER_05 1:29:40

good.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:41

And

SPEAKER_05 1:29:41

Josephine, our girl Josephine, has made a COVID cake.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:47

So this is Celebrate Pizzagate.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:49

This is to celebrate Pizzagate, the only Pizzagate that matters, which is this dumb fucking wood film that everybody in South Australia hates. And if you don't know about the other Pizzagate, get off your ass and look it up

SPEAKER_01 1:30:00

because it's pretty great. Where would they best look up Pizzagate?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:03

Just the fucking internet. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:05

Yeah, but is it a meme or is it beyond a meme? No, it's

SPEAKER_05 1:30:08

an actual thing. A dude went to the pizza place, tried to shoot people. To save the children.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:15

Because the Clintons are running a racket of children stealing and drinking their blood out of a pizza shop, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:23

In Los

SPEAKER_05 1:30:23

Angeles? No, in Washington.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:27

In Washington Pizza Shop.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:28

That's right. It's all part of the QAnon conspiracy, which is in Australia. There's like a heap of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:35

QAnon. It's

SPEAKER_05 1:30:36

fucking weird, honey.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:38

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:39

It's really weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:40

Anyhow, let's let these people go. It's all

SPEAKER_05 1:30:42

Facebook's fault. We need to get off Facebook, kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:45

Happy end of lockdown, everybody. May this virus go away. Now we've got lots of vaccines on the way. We've got... Help from smart governments like South Australia. Thank you, Premier.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:57

Trump lost and he's going to keep losing. And Giuliani, if you haven't seen the video of Giuliani with his hair dye running down his face like a mad person, which then he blows his nose. Have you seen this? He blows his nose. He turns the tissue inside out and wipes his face with... He's not. Don't. No, I am not exaggerating. Don't. He's so gross. Like, seriously. Don't. Enough already. Let's let these people play. These fucking old people need to be put home and left there for a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:33

Love you all.

UNKNOWN 1:31:34

Yeah.