Atkins Labcast Episode 35 - Robert McGrath

The Adelaide Fringe Festival was in town and Paul sat down with Sydney based festival and event photographer Robert McGrath. Robert has been covering Fringe Festivals as both a photographerr for many years and has added writing to broaden his offerings. Robert’s approach is unique as he strives to get behind the canned PR that is typical in theatre, and delve deeper into the performances. This is a pivotal time for festivals and events, and Robert sees it burgeoning with opportunity.

Robert’s Website: 
https://itsoutnow.co
On Vimeo: 
https://vimeo.com/itsoutnow
Robert’s page on his Photomotions: 
https://itsoutnow.co/blog/showreels-as-photomotion
Refocus Retreat
https://refocusretreat.com.au
Absolutely Fabulous
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105929/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
EMANATIONS The Art of the Cameraless Photograph
https://govettbrewster.com/shop/books/emanations-the-art-of-the-cameraless-photograph
Anna Atkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Atkins
Ian North
http://gagprojects.com/index.php/artists/ian-north/
Gee Greenslade
https://www.geegreenslade.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Good afternoon, Kate.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Is it afternoon?

SPEAKER_04 0:08

It is 12.27pm.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Okay, what am I having for lunch?

SPEAKER_04 0:15

You just had breakfast, darling. It's Sunday morning. I

SPEAKER_03 0:18

did not just have breakfast. I think that is, you're casting great and mighty aspersions upon me.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Astertions.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

No, I had my breakfast at like 8.30. You were out walking, traipsing around, trying to find a human to interact with. That's what you were doing.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

No, I wasn't looking for anybody.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

The kangaroos.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Yes, I was looking, but I didn't see any kangaroos.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Really? Yes. Really? Well, that's unusual. For those of you who do not follow Paul's Instagram and his kangaroo adventures three times a week, you're missing out.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

I did. You know, a couple of weeks ago, because this episode is, of course, forever in coming out.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Forever. And we know whose fault that is.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Yeah. Whose?

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Mine. Oh, okay. It's always my fault when anything is late because I am just perpetually late.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Yeah. So my youngest and I took a road trip and she's just got her L's. Well, she got them a little while ago. Yeah, but she wants to crank up the jam, pump up the jam with her miles.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

You know, I'm not convinced that this is a legit way to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Well, she was behind the wheel for 20 hours.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Yeah, I know, but it's different like a straight road sitting there just driving on a straight road. It's different from rush hour traffic. Oh, totally, totally. 12 hours.

SPEAKER_04 1:34

And the trouble is where she struggled the most because at the end of the day you actually get into a town. And that's when you're really tired and that's when she had real difficulty. Because we did three days, 1,200 kilometres and three states, South Australia, New South Wales, Victoria. And we didn't see any kangaroos on that trip. Oh, hang on, no, that's not true. We saw kangaroos in Clare as we're going out of Clare.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Where the heck are they all?

SPEAKER_04 2:01

I don't know. There's enough rain in the mid-north that they could hop around and eat anywhere they want. They'd have to come to the roadside. So we saw a couple of dead ones, but the only kangaroos we saw on the first day leaving Clare, which is in our wine region, right, Bungaree Station, where you and I got married. We did. 21 years ago, April

SPEAKER_03 2:20

8th. We did, correct.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Yes, so our wedding anniversary's gone past in this

SPEAKER_03 2:24

period. Oh, my God. The whole world's changed.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

It has. Since this interview that we've just done. But anyway, saw no kangaroos. Saw one emu. That was the only live interactive beast that we saw on the road all the way up to Broken Hill. Not

SPEAKER_03 2:39

a fan. Around Broken Hill. Not a fan of the emu.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Well, it was trying to get over a fence.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

They're dumb as shit and they poke their little pokey heads. If anybody's missed out on the emu on TikTok, that emu, she's vicious.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

Okay, so people should look up TikTok emu, is that

SPEAKER_03 2:54

what it is? TikTok emu is horrible. Poor woman who has to look after a bloody thing, constantly batting it away as it tries to attack her.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

They're curious little beasts, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 3:03

Well, it's in America, so it's probably pretty pissed off.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Yes. So back when we recorded this podcast, we were at the Fringe Festival.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

We were.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

And you and I saw a couple of shows.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

We did.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

So we did a little bit of

SPEAKER_03 3:16

fringing. High performance packing tape. If you can ever get yourself... To a show of that, it is Chef's Kiss.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

Yep, yep. And we saw Egg by Erin Fowler, which was just lovely too. That was kind of cool. But both of those shows were like, you and I hadn't done a lot of that

SPEAKER_03 3:32

sort of stuff. We saw some other stuff. I can't remember. I know I saw a lot of art exhibitions.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

Yeah, yeah. But it was one of those shows where we were anxious about going out. And it was all– everyone was

SPEAKER_03 3:44

worried about– Yeah, we went– there were a couple of places where it's just like we're all going to die. Too many

SPEAKER_04 3:49

people in one room. We all have COVID now. Someone's going to sneeze. But nothing happened. No, I don't even know how that happened. Nothing happened. It went through absolutely seamlessly. And although they did find COVID in the sewage, from that– corner where the Fringe Festival is of Adelaide, that corner of the city. They found it, but it just turned out some Melbourne performers or something was shedding out their system. Filthy Melbourners.

UNKNOWN 4:13

Filthy Melbourners.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

No. Hey, talking about Victoria, we're going to Victoria the end of this month,

SPEAKER_03 4:18

aren't we? Well, potentially both of us, potentially just you.

SPEAKER_04 4:22

I wish it was just you. I

SPEAKER_03 4:26

sort of wish it was just me too. No, I

SPEAKER_04 4:27

wish it was the both of us.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yeah. We've got shit going on here. What are we going to see? That may or may not stop it. We are going to the refocus retreat. So

SPEAKER_04 4:41

first you focus and now you need to focus again. So is this for older people?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

No, it's not for older people. So explain what is

SPEAKER_04 4:51

a refocus retreat

SPEAKER_03 4:51

about? It's to refocus on what's important, not just focusing on business or just family or just whatever. It is women only.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

How come I can go?

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Because you have been approved of by a woman who's in charge, which would be me and or the organisers.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

And you're not in charge.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

No, but I'm a person.

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Okay. So you've approved of me.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

Does that mean I'm not a danger?

SPEAKER_03 5:20

You are in danger of embarrassing everybody with dad jokes. But other than that...

SPEAKER_04 5:27

Well, how am I going to represent the company? Because I assume this is about us selling our business to

SPEAKER_03 5:31

other people. Yeah, yeah. So if I don't go, you're going to be surrounded by women going, who the fuck is this guy? No. They're going to love you. All women bloody love you. And how much is a six by four and I'm

SPEAKER_04 5:39

going to be like...

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah, that's right. That's the problem. You're going to be telling people random fucking prices. You're going to agree to all sorts of crazy shit. Sure, we'll make that for you.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

The listeners can't see my eyebrows and dumb face, which is just like...

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Eyebrows and dumb face. You'll have that look. That look will be your look for the full day.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

I'll just say, ring Kate. She knows. Ring Karen.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

She knows. I just want it to go ahead and not have a COVID drama around it.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's going to be really cool to go to an event. And it's in Lorne. And would booking still be open, do you think? I think so. So you can jump on us. Depends on when you actually release this. We'll put a link to the refocus.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

And we are sponsoring G. Oh, yeah. G Greenslade. Yep. G Greenslade. She's going to do a real wacky. No,

SPEAKER_04 6:27

no. It's going to be challenging.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

It's going to be wild.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

It's going to be great. So we're going to watch their space. Maybe I can record something from the show floor. I don't know how

SPEAKER_03 6:36

to do that. Oh, yeah. Fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

How do I do that?

SPEAKER_03 6:39

I don't know. With a recorder.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

We

SPEAKER_03 6:40

bought one of those bloody remote thingamajiggies. Zoom

SPEAKER_04 6:46

recorder.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Yeah, with two. How

SPEAKER_04 6:48

do people see what G does? Well, let's work

SPEAKER_03 6:52

out that when it comes up.

UNKNOWN 6:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

So shall we pivot now around to our guest, Robert McGrath?

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Sure. That was a very brief– that's six minutes you've given us.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

I know.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Six minutes and you're already on task for the next job. Do you want to talk

SPEAKER_04 7:07

about something else?

SPEAKER_03 7:08

No, that's fine. It's fine, you little tasky bastard.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

And I was just worried about the dog going woof, because you'll see something interesting

SPEAKER_03 7:16

out the window. He will. He's had his hair done yesterday. I think you made his head a little bit

SPEAKER_04 7:21

small.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Listen, his head is a little bit smaller than it should be in comparison.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

You know, it's either full Brian May, where he's got his ears and full Brian May hair, or it's... Pinhead.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

Orange on a toothpick. The reason is because it's winter. I don't want his little body to be cold. You've got a jumper for him. Yes, and the jumper is glorious. But I left a little bit more hair on him....than the usual, so his little head is a little bit little. And so now he looks substantially chunkier than he did... That's what I noticed. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

It looked like he'd

SPEAKER_03 7:52

been eating peanut butter and bagels. He's a little thicker than he normally is. With the two Cs. Yeah, the best kind of thick. Correct. But he also looks like he's had a Botox accident because... His eyebrows are a little wilder than usual.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

If anyone who remembers from back in the day, he has Professor Julius Sundermiller eyebrows, which are just super bushy eyebrows.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

And there's three people who know what the hell you're talking about. Super

SPEAKER_04 8:16

bushy eyebrows. Correct. Why is it so?

SPEAKER_03 8:19

But what we're doing for the refocus retreat is… Taking our dog? Maybe. No, we can't take the dog. Oh, shut up. We're not talking about the dog. What we are doing is building a whole stack of new sample products. Right, yeah. which we sorely and desperately need. And I'm pondering whether we do a little skip into Melb's and see if anyone wants to have a coffee.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Melbourne's so bloody hard to get people out of their houses. They're like, meh, I don't want to go anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

We'll just go and visit Ollie.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Just go and see Ollie and tell all the other Melbourners to jam it.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Christian Cook. Yes. Let's go and see a couple of people that we can hang with. Emily Black.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Sarah

SPEAKER_04 8:57

Black. Sarah.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

I could maybe con Sarah into doing a portrait.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Of the dog.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Me.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Oh, you.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

It's always about me. Have you not worked that bun out yet? Okay, Robert.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

Let's talk about Robert.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

This is the ADHD girl goes on a bloody tangent. No, no, it's

SPEAKER_04 9:12

good. It's very good. No, Robert is from Sydney. He's an event festival photographer and he's been in the industry quite some time. And, you know, if your job is photographing events and festivals, what happens when there's no events and festivals?

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah, geez, I bet that was stressful.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Yeah, but he's worked it out. Like he's… He's worked it out and he's going forward. I mean, I don't think he's sorted it yet, but he's got a really, really good plan and he's partnering with our friends.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

He's done so many weird and wild things and he has this sort of inner confidence like, yep, nah, she'll be right. I

SPEAKER_04 9:49

know. It's really impressive. I would be really worried about things, but he's...

SPEAKER_03 9:52

You already are.

SPEAKER_04 9:53

I know. That's my permanent state. That's your permanent state. I think his photography's great. His writing is fantastic. I think... He's kind of just discovered that. I think he always knew he could write, but it's now putting it forward with it, mixing the pictures and the stories. And it's almost like he's doing journalism, but he's doing not PR discussions. So it's not criticism of work. It's reviewing in a different kind of way. It's not reviewing to give star ratings and that kind of stuff. It's just reviewing great work. And he goes to the Edinburgh Fringe. He goes to Adelaide Fringe. He does a whole lot of other stuff around Australia and done some other international stuff. So he's a busy fellow. And he comes from the magazine industry way, way, way, way, way back

SPEAKER_03 10:38

when. And he's a character based on him in Ab Fab.

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Well... And if you don't know what Ab Fab is... He was based on the character. You need a smack. Yeah, so he basically had worked for a paddy and apparently the whole magazine industry in that sort of era was filled with paddies. That's what everyone needed was a paddy around the place. And he was one of the assistants there. So... Yeah, I haven't found him in the episode because I haven't been back through the AbFab episodes.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

We should switch that. That would

SPEAKER_04 11:03

be cool because I reckon the kids would love that. Yeah. If they're ever home.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Yeah. They're pretty great, those

SPEAKER_04 11:08

two. Yeah. Anyhow, let's leave the listeners to listen to Robert. Yep. I'm absolutely thrilled this afternoon to be sitting here with someone I've only just recently met, which is a joy in life to find people who you want to meet and talk about and find out what they do. And there's someone I have not heard about before within the photographic circles, but it's clearly running a very professional, very interesting photographic operation out of Sydney. And he happens to be here in Adelaide. So I'm going to introduce Robert McGrath. Welcome. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Tell me, Robert,

SPEAKER_01 11:47

why are you in Adelaide? Okay, I'm down here as an accredited, well, photo writer. I just say journalist, but... That is like such an old-fashioned word for me now. It doesn't sound right. But accredited with the fringe. So I've been... This is the third or fourth fringe I've covered. And I'd been down here previously with a number of... Or a couple of journals. But they've all gone to the wall with COVID. So I've had to decide what to do. And like also a lot of people I've met at Fringe this year. Just figuring it out. So... What I'm actually doing here is a number of things, seeing where we can move to. I've developed a particular beat, I think, that's almost, I'd like to think it's unique, but I haven't met anyone else. I've never come across anyone else. Well, that means it is unique, doesn't it? Well, it's unique in my world, perhaps. But I go to Edinburgh and I go to Adelaide, and they're the most interesting, for me, canvases for new concepts coming through the culture. So tell me why your approach is unique and what you're tackling with. Oh, there's so many aspects to that, actually. I'm always frustrated with the immediate daily press need of PR-driven information. So a lot of shows will be promoted through PR. And really there's no engagement with the creatives. There's no– you've probably heard of curtain calls and things like that where they'll come up– If the Australian Opera in Sydney is doing something, there'll be a curtain call at 11 in the morning. They'll just go through the scene about five or six times. Stop wherever you want it, but everyone's just a performing seal. And I do a lot of work. I've got what I call a photo buddy who's a top-level Getty photographer, and we work a lot together. And he just goes to them because they're churned concepts, but... I don't think he fully agrees with me. There's a much more inclusive, engaging way of doing this stuff. But the reason it happens is that it feeds the daily press. Yeah, right. And it's easy, I suppose. Press release. Press release, okay. I don't have to know too much about it. Regurgitate, write a story. And there's a high, you know, we've all heard of the 24-hour news cycle. I want to bust that. But I don't think everyone has to work in that. That's an assumption by people who are in it. Right. I really think that. So if I can get an embedded, you know, if you're a photographer, you love observing, you want to get into things. Yeah. If I go back to Adelaide, actually, when I arrive in Adelaide or in Edinburgh and I engage with the performers, and I'm not a performer, but they're obviously creative of another type, I'm with my people.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And I can translate their creative impulses through images. Yes. And... what would be three years ago, the publisher I was doing stuff for said, you have to write.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Well, that's really interesting. And I think that's– I've had a good look at your website and had a good read of the articles. That's what stopped me. The photography stopped me, but I'm used to photography. Yes. And it's my language. And reading, I do love to read as well, but I thought the writing was exceptional. And I'm just curious, where did that come into your– thinking and and why did you become a writer in all of this

SPEAKER_01 15:17

uh i was told to basically so they told me but i've resisted it for years because i would say i can visualize i can see things i can do that i can remember saying to the publisher i can do that in 30 minutes and deliver and everyone you know i just could do it on the back of my hand I would send back sort of really smart and smarmy emails, and everyone loved my emails, but that was for private stuff. And he goes, you write well. I want you to write. Then he said, you've got to write. There's no future. They've since gone bankrupt, unfortunately, but they're a good company. They're good-hearted people, and they've gone on to other owners now. So it would only be three years ago I finally took the plunge. Wow. I just did what I was always doing. I still write more slowly than I can photograph and do a whole project. Yeah, right. Okay. But the integrated package is now what I've been able to evolve and develop for myself. And I'm a little bit chuffed I can say I'm a photo writer.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Yeah, yeah. It certainly changes the whole aspect of what you're doing and removes the limits that you might think of as being a photographer. I mean, you've got your own site, but it's actually a bit of a hub of information about what's going on within a– a niche of an industry, and it's quite effective. Thank you. And so when you are looking at– I mean, I certainly looked at it and thought, oh, well, this is quite the guide to what I should be seeing, but not the guide that the festival's putting out. Or

SPEAKER_01 16:44

really all the other– I used to be in information science, which is another thing. It's actually a core skill that keeps coming into me. After I went and did some design graduate stuff, I got employed by what's now UTS in Sydney. to be a lecturer in what I knew nothing about. Sorry, not nothing about. I knew nothing about the field. So UTC University? University of Technology Sydney, UTS. In those days it was called Coringa and then they all had these mergers. And I found myself teaching just, you might call it document photography and teaching visual presentation in an information science school. Now that's a fancy word for librarianship. But I was with these really brilliant people who had really– they were four minutes ahead of the desktop computer revolution and saying all the principles that we've ordered the traditional library right back to the Middle Ages is exactly what this is. I would use information arrangements constantly without ever telling anyone. Right. In Lightroom, I make the catalogue straight away at the back end of my website. The catalogue's there. That's all information science.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

The basic principles of storage. And people sometimes say to me, how can I improve my photography? And I give them my oblique answer, catalogue. No, no, no, no. How do I improve my photography? If you don't catalogue in real time, you'll be killed by a tsunami. You will never get to it.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Yeah, yeah. That's something you wouldn't have picked it up an hour in your… research at us but that's been a really big theme through all of our change in our business in the last 10 years is a focus on curation and how you can help people manage their libraries more effectively so and it has to start you have to draw a line in the sand so I can now from now on I'm going to be writing the titles or i'm going to be applying metadata automatically and i'm going to keyword and tag straight away as i'm working and if i can get a camera that can do a bit of it for me i'm going to add it to it you know if i'm going to grab the gps data as well i'm going to include that in it because a picture is more than just a picture it's

SPEAKER_01 18:55

why you took it when you took it yeah they will tell you a million times if you can't retrieve it this is like a library book or a piece of data on anything it's useless So then is your background, let's just go a little further back, tell us where it starts. Let's go back in a minute to a massive thing that informed me in information science a bit later. But I left college, I was doing graphic design at what was then Sydney College of the Arts. Yes, that's right. And my first job was in a photo studio and I loved it and I loved photography at college but I wasn't doing photography. What sort of photo studio was it

SPEAKER_04 19:30

though?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Big commercial one. It was sort of this top line commercial one. It didn't last very long, but that's a young person doing jobs. But I just landed on my feet there. However, I wasn't quite sure whether I wanted graphics or photography. And the people that would come into the studio were either magazine producers or advertising companies. And of course, everything like that's done quite differently now. And I really like– I could never get excited about advertising, getting excited about someone else's packet of cornflakes and giving it features that aren't real. But I love the magazine process, putting things together. And I've always been a bit of an under-the-hood person and I loved it. So it's a storytelling drive. Correct. You're absolutely correct. And I kept photography on the back burner because photography at that big photo studio always had– a team, and once you get into filmmaking, I could never work in a team like that. I'm not independent. Huge collaborative environment. They all stand around waiting, and I can't do it. You're impatient. It's not in me. It's not in me. But I really did– I learnt the magazine business really well from the production end, and when I was about 24, 25, I was at Consolidated Press, and I was production manager at House and Garden, which was– Pretty top magazine. Well, we all know House of

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Garden. It's been one of my mum's staples. Oh, has it? Architectural Digest is the one she would die

SPEAKER_01 21:02

for. I probably haven't looked at it for 20 years because I've moved on. I

SPEAKER_04 21:06

don't think I have either.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

But for short stories in my later life, I haven't written yet. Mr Packer who everyone calls him Mr Packer even if he's dead if you're anywhere near him he's Mr Packer and he was a giant presence of a man and The year before I arrived there, he had just done one of his great raids. You've all heard of him raiding the cricket team. What no one hears about is he raided Vogue and got all the Vogue dames and put them all around his company as editors and deputy editors and this, that and the other. This isn't the sort of just-as-Ita-was-moving-on era.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Right,

SPEAKER_01 21:44

yes. And so I worked for Vogue dames. Right. And I hope I don't denigrate anyone. When Absolutely Fabulous started... I'd heard it all before and I couldn't, and I was horrified because I thought this isn't funny, this is true.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

It's a documentary.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

It's a documentary of my life and it took many years to unfold and I used to say to ex-colleagues, do you think this is funny? We've heard it. Can I just tell you Mr Packer banned booze in the building after he had his famous heart attack and there's nothing on the other side. But no, no we didn't. Where did we hide it? We hit it in the compactus. And little Robert, age 24, I just look back and cringe. I'd never heard the word Bollinger before, but it was Bollinger. Really? It was word perfect. It was Bollinger. Far out. And I'll cut to the chase. I can give you all the scripts. There's the editorial meeting. I've been there. Yeah, right. I've been there. And many years later… A colleague in Australia got me to look up somebody in New York, and he had been an advertising salesperson for Condé Nast in New York. And I said, again, this strange feeling that had followed us around for years, many of us, do you think it's real? What's this about? And he said, I'll tell you what the story is. There are six Patsys in the world. And the original Patsy was based largely, but not completely, on the beauty editor at Vogue, Really? In London. And what Vogue would do in its day would send all the beauty editors from around the world to London and they got patsy-ised. My deputy editor and drinking partner was that.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

Was really?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Was a patsy. How incredible. One of half a dozen only patsies. The story is too true.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Far

SPEAKER_01 23:34

out. Too true. Isn't that wonderful? I mean, I've got a long short story in all this. The uncovering of it and the understanding of it and wondering where the hell it came from. And it's true. They're Vogue dames. The whole

SPEAKER_04 23:48

– that's incredible. So what were you doing at Vogue at that stage?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

I wasn't at Vogue. I was at the House of Garden. Oh, sorry. You were at House of Garden. And my editor and deputy editor had a few years previously been poached by Mr Packer from Vogue. Yeah, yeah. As you said, stripped it. Yeah, yeah. And– That's really interesting. It's fascinating. And in the– there is one episode that has my character–

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Because I would go out for lunch every day as a drinking partner. I thought she was so glamorous, I can't tell you. I was a young little whatever, S-H-I-T. I didn't drink, but she was doing it out of a straw. And we would plot against the editor. Oh, really? I loved it. And there is one episode in Absolutely Fabulous, and no one's ever noticed it. The opposite to bubble, everyone's heard of bubble, of course, is squeak.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

That's the male assistant. Bubba Squeak. The male assistant in the other. There's a show about winning the award for PR.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

The assistant in the other thing is Squeak. I went, oh, my God, that is me at 25. Isn't that awesome?

SPEAKER_04 24:59

I'm going to look up that episode.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

It doesn't look like me. It's not acting like me. But the concept, I've had that role. I know what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fantastic. I love magazines, by the way, but that was bizarre.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

So tell me, the magazine industry has obviously been…

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Oh, decimated. It's not even the shape. It doesn't even look like it used to look like. Yeah, right. But they still exist. Yeah. I think I haven't really been involved for a long, long, long, long time, but I did notice them all go down. I mean, you just look at the audiences they're chasing. They're much more pedestrian, screaming, loud thing. So what did you follow after? Well, I wouldn't… I did some studies. Yep. I'd only had half finished my degree, so I went and did a grad dip in design studies back at Sydney College and went straight from there, just answered an ad at UTS and ended up in information science. And the interesting thing about that, which I was referring to, is that all my training in graphics and experience in graphics and that assumed a certain model of communication. And information science is quite different. And it absolutely informs me to this day. And communication, be it mass media or whatever, was dependent on a persuasive model. So advertising. I need to tell you something you don't want to know or haven't heard of before. Or I've got to sell something. It's all about sell. So it'll be brighter colors, more annoying ways of approach, like attention grabbing. And they had a user-oriented– and I do hear the language in other fields now– user-oriented design process where you assume your audience is already interested in what you're on about. So you meet them halfway. So it's a much calmer form of graphic expression. And I still go, oh, when I see an ad these days because I'm just too attuned to it. Like, do they think I'm dumb? That's how I feel. Yeah, I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

But you're educated in this world of it.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

But I've had 30 years of it now. And so when I come up against PR, I just go, oh, groan. Right. So that's what's led to that. And that's a gatekeeper. Yes. I mean, I'm going, there's nothing, unless you want me to translate what you already want, there's nothing here for me to do.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Right,

SPEAKER_01 27:16

right, right. I need to, you know, I would prefer to find the creative themselves. Yes. I work with them. Yeah. So when I'm, and one of the great things of coming to Adelaide is that when you're shooting performance, I will say for Adelaide, all the difficulties of PR and that, by the time a big product gets, a big show, a show gets to Sydney, Melbourne, London or New York, it's a product.

SPEAKER_04 27:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

So it will have its PR policy. It will have its strategies. And I acknowledge that. But I'm not being, it's too late to get with the creatives and start to nut them out unless you, I don't know. But here, everyone's trying to get something up. Yeah. Or a lot of people are. And I can go and talk directly to them. Same in Edinburgh. Yeah. And they go, that's really interesting. And I will work with them. And they will say, yep, sit in the front row. And I've had feedback from performers going, I got it in Adelaide, saying, we can tell a photo call because the eyes are dead. I hadn't actually sort of noticed that. But when I'm shooting live, they're performing over my head. Right. To their audience. They know how to play their audience. Yes. And they're doing what they do. I'm doing what I do. We all know about it beforehand. There is nothing– and I can translate the experience of being there so much more effectively.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Yeah, yeah. So you're almost part of the prototyping process because are they getting any– The prototyping of a show, how is this going to go out? How's it going to be received? Because you're seeing it often before it gets worked up. Because I'm thinking about Erin Fowler's show Egg, which I'm going to see Friday night. Last year she had Femme at the Fringe and it won the Best Performance. And now the Festival Theatre has asked her to do it in the Playhouse in June here. With the Cabaret Festival? I don't know if it's with the Cabaret Festival. It might be. Yeah, I think that's when it is. But so that show at the Fringe was a prototype. Oh, absolutely. And then so her feedback from developing the show and from people in the business who would have talked to her with them, they possibly influenced the final product, which is she's going to be delivering... as a polished thing in a few months' time. Do you find yourself in that role at all, where you're helping them at all with

SPEAKER_01 29:41

your commentary? I prefer not to be in the role, but I often put words. What I found with my writing and my thing is I can translate their creative intent with my writing and photography, and it becomes a more solid thing. I would say that there are many processes at work at the two core fringes on earth, which is here in Edinburgh, which refine. The whole thing's a refining process. I'm just another addition to that. There's the reviews. The word of mouth here is very strong. It's a very strong element. And everyone's looking at it and thinking about it. I saw a very good show the other day, and its production values were utterly elemental, but already they're going to put it on. I mean, she's a great performer anyway, and the production values are probably below her normal standard, but... Suddenly somebody in South Australia has said, we're going to put that on with more production values later in the year. So it's all, you watch performers, they're always evolving their stuff too. I saw another show that is really, I can see the characters in development. It needs another year of itself. Nothing like, because I'm not a producer, director or actor, but I know where it's sort of at in development. Now it's already a four-star show, but I think it just needs time to, cook itself yeah yeah and you come back you come back the next year you might see them and it's really satisfying to see everything's on the move not everything but the people you might be dealing with yeah yeah and um i i'm not comfortable in critiquing because you've got to uh have an opinion and you really don't know what's gone into their work but with what i write and if um if it appears in Sydney or Melbourne, the last book when I was with the other titles, I was able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 31:30

Did you feel comfortable critiquing? I've

SPEAKER_01 31:33

done a lot more this year only because there's not many shows here this year and Fringe keeps contacting me going, you haven't done your critique yet. And I've given up. I just write it. But I'm not entirely comfortable because... I don't think as a critic you get to talk to the creative and find out about their intent. You need to be more distant. Whereas I'm part of the... I only choose really what's already winning four and five stars or awards or has been performing in other festivals before here. From Sydney, I can follow what's happening in Perth on their website and follow the reviews and I start noticing what's getting really good reviews and stars over in Perth and I see it here on the list here, and I put that on the list to follow up. So they're already off the base before I get involved, and they're already going somewhere, and you find incredibly dedicated people who are quite committed to getting something up. And so my role is to stand back and observe it and to explain it to the people, to somebody else, what's going on here.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Yeah. I think your work also has had– I think it's quite socially active as well. You know, your work with the Mardi Gras and the covering the Mardi Gras, you were saying, we were talking a couple of days ago about it, how you found that in photographing the getting ready for the performance and everything like that, how you're validating photographs their personas that they're putting on and the outfits and the costumes and you're a big part of the energy that happens.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

You're just, as a photographer, you're just tapping into it.

SPEAKER_04 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And you're not creating it and you're not, maybe you're not part of it. You must be feeding it. Oh, Or encouraging them. I suppose anyone who photographs out on the street has a relationship with what's in front of them. I think being naive to think you're not in... Yeah, but also you're part of... I mean, there's a lot of licence to be there. You get your... Accreditation....court out so that they go, right, you're not here for a rip-off. I don't know what makes a difference, but, you know, you give yourself licence. It's also very sealed off. It's a set thing. It's not just random out on the streets. You know, there might be hundreds of thousands of people on the streets before COVID, but... And that's just random shots. There's really not. But you choose it. There's a spot there. Usually they fence off Hyde Park in Sydney and they all prepare. It is late afternoon. The sun, if it's shiny, just bounces off all the white buildings. The light's perfect. Photographing people marching in the dark is appalling.

SPEAKER_04 34:13

It looks like a criminal action, doesn't

SPEAKER_01 34:15

it? Oh, it's just… With a flash or whatever you're doing. It's just horrible.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

No matter what your ISO of your camera's cable, you still need that main light

SPEAKER_01 34:21

to borrow.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Yeah, but

SPEAKER_01 34:23

once you experience this thing, I think I called in the editorial, it's the greatest free party on earth. Yeah. And it is. The people are so happy. I will also say that my feeling is that in a country like Australia with a very short settled history, we're not used to… expressing ourselves in public. There's festivals all over Europe that people express their sense of citizenship and their role in life and see themselves, but we're not used to it. When you come across an unselfconscious act of 10,000 or 12,000 people all dressed up, when they arrive there, they're all shiny-faced, they're happy, they're ready to go, they're in there for about three or four hours. you might think that's boring. But they actually go around with the other groups, look at them, chat away, see things. Wow, that's amazing. And then all the marching groups are actually rehearsing on the spot. Oh, really? And that's how you get your great shots of marching. Oh, wow. And it's a lot of fun. When the light's just right. Oh, yeah. And then also there are some that have big trucks with huge arc lights going down onto them. So it's the best place to do it. Not when it goes random out on the street.

SPEAKER_04 35:29

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 35:30

yeah. Meanwhile... PR from Mardi Gras is corralling, which is an outside organisation to PR, they're corralling my friend and his other press photographers for the same, 20 people are getting the same shots. It's like a camera club. At the greetings, there's a spot, be it five o'clock and we'll have all the photo opportunities and they're all predictable photo opportunities and they all photograph the same thing and they're also, network television often needs a live cross and that's what that's for. I see. But I think it's a very, for a greater impression to people who aren't there of what it's really like, this is the way to get it. Easily.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Yeah, that's fascinating. Easily. So how do you find, like you obviously are seeing it all happening, all these people bouncing off one another and capturing that. Do you find that echoes well in your stories? Does it make it easier to tell the stories of the events like that when you actually are there in the thick of it and seeing the people responding to one another? Because obviously when something's staged, they think they've got their best side and all this

SPEAKER_01 36:33

sort of thing. Yeah, no, no, no. No, I just let... How would you say? I let it run in front of me. Do you? Very much. I'll say hi to them. So it's

SPEAKER_04 36:42

reportage, really.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, but I'm engaged with them, too. I'll say, hi, how are you going? Looking great. I won't say turn to me. Yeah. Also, my Getty... I know that what Getty wants is eyes to the front. Right. Because that implies consent.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Even though it's a consensual area. Right, right. Interesting. But that covers all issues years later. Right, right. So he gets everyone to turn to him like that. Now I'm going, oh... I don't like that. Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 37:11

yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not... It's too performative, isn't it, really? You're not sort of hinting that there's some behind-the-scenes interest going on when they're looking at you at the camera, whereas if you're shooting around what's going on, they're not turning their full spotlights on you of their eyes and all that.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah, I just think... The high-end users of photography, the big websites, just don't want legal problems years later. Right. They just don't want to think about it. Yeah, yeah. But that's up to them. But

SPEAKER_04 37:40

you're not concerned about that?

SPEAKER_01 37:43

But I feel I know the reason why, and it's not valid. Right. Oh, good. Yeah. That's

SPEAKER_04 37:48

fair.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah. And you have to– this is even from information science– You've got to have empathy with the people. Yes. If I go to a Lebanese wedding and photograph it, I'm in a shiny silk vest. Yes. You've got to be part of the show.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

I mildly dress up, not too much, but I look like I'm part of what's going on. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, you integrate with people. Yeah. And you're going to get great shots. People will talk to you and chat to you.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

And you just keep going. It's easy.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

Yeah. So really it is a– It's a big part of the whole thing that the press is there and people like yourself there, you know, helping build that energy. So tell me, out of that, I mean, excuse me for being forward, but how do you make a living out of that sort of a thing? Very

SPEAKER_01 38:34

difficult.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

Is it? Have

SPEAKER_01 38:36

you worked it out yet? Always working it out again. How's that? We all are. I agree so. And again, with... The photo platform I use, Photo Merchant, you can at least get some stuff out.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 38:50

yeah. For about six or eight years, six years maybe, I was involved with some previous marketing managers there running a thing called the Mardi Gras Photo Team, which was a mentoring program where they gave me the money to do that. Right. But they've all moved on now. So there'll be three or four... It wasn't just any old random junior photographer, but rather those who had just graduated from tech or university in their first year or two and looking for good opportunities. And then we give them the whole... We would invent things to cover because there's thousands of... Not thousands, sorry. There'd be dozens and dozens of events all over Sydney for about two or three weeks. So

SPEAKER_04 39:29

it's almost like an accreditation program for those juniors walking into

SPEAKER_01 39:33

the... It was. They all put it onto... It was all portfolio building for them and very... They were held well. Yeah, lovely. And there's some nice stuff that came out of those projects. Yeah. And they still use them. Oh, that's great. But you've actually alluded to with making a living, there is so much in digital photography where I find myself undermined as soon as I get there in value. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And there are so many aspects to that. We'd probably have another.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

So do you find the organisers– because they all– they want it to work and want it to make money legitimately. Everyone does. That means looking at every single opportunity that's around and go, we can make money out of this area. And sometimes that's stepping on your living because they're saying,

SPEAKER_01 40:23

well,

SPEAKER_04 40:23

you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

No, there's lack of appreciation of what's good, unique content. And, for example, the corporate type people who are running it, I just think they go, we'll get PR in. I think PR is the one that doesn't know how to– facilitate authentic engagement and authentic content. And just because they're facilitating the Daily Mail or the Guardian or the Sydney Morning Herald or News Limited, that's only one part of it. Most people aren't on that anymore anyway. That's because it's got to go out very quickly. Right, right. But that used to be the entire market. It's very small now. I think there's a lot more to be done about... Again, the people going there want to own it. They want to own their space. It doesn't matter if you're doing the Easter show. We did that a couple of times too. Oh, really? Is that a good opportunity? Yeah. Again, it's got a big boundary around it. You get a licence and people know you're doing stuff. And you can go into the barnyards and just see. There's the most fascinating, authentic stuff happening. I was going to say chariot races, horse and dray races, things from 1900 and you're going, this is a thing. Everything's a thing, isn't it? But it's authentic. It might be a bit strange to our eyes, but if it's authentic, I'm there. And PR and advertising lost sight of authenticity years ago, so they don't even know when they're not doing it.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

Yeah, not enough drama, pizzazz, whatever it might be. It's just a bit too high down,

SPEAKER_01 41:59

I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So would that mean that, in that case, would that work be your images you'd be photographing for the show and they'd be using it in their history and collateral recordings or is it stuff that you would then sell to publications that may or may not pick

SPEAKER_01 42:16

it up? It's had different iterations at different times and it's too much work to expect anything this person will get famous in years to come and prove to be of any value. So that's why my buddy's down doing Beyonce, who doesn't know who he is and he doesn't know who she is. They just turned up for an appointment, gone click and moved on. Oh,

SPEAKER_04 42:38

really?

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Okay. But he gets his little bits. His payments, I won't let him hear this actually. Just

SPEAKER_04 42:45

don't tell him it

SPEAKER_01 42:46

happened. No, I won't. We're not that well known. But he makes a very good living out of micro sales.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Right. Okay. I'm actually on Getty as well at the signature end. Yep. That terrifies him. I can literally go into a major event, ask for signatures, and get a 90% response rate. It's how you approach the event. So what do you mean by signatures? Okay. There's a phone app that gives permissions. Oh, right. And Getty, for example. So

SPEAKER_04 43:15

you can't put with Getty unless you've got permission from the artist and you're using some sort of a form system.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yes, yes. A digital form. Now... I think that's too detailed for me to achieve here, but I've often done it. That's a real challenge. It's something you learn. And about 12, 14 years ago, I was contributing to AAP for some reason, and for some reason it just landed on me. And they said, the person running it at the time, and I don't think it should have been corporate, they said, there's nothing we can take on that hasn't had a signature. So I just go into things, you know, there'd be some demonstration of, you know, but not demonstration. Actually, I did do that on marriage equality. Yeah. A whole heap of people, I asked for their permissions. And the interesting thing is it breaks the barrier of not knowing them at the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 44:06

All right.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

But it's like a doctor. You choose your patients. You can actually, with a bit of experience, you go, they look receptive, they look receptive, and they're up for it. They sign it. They know who you are. And then I might see them 20 minutes later. And I'll photograph them then. Oh, right. And it works. It really works. Yeah. There's a skill in it. And again, my Getty friend, who's never had to ask for a signature in his life because everything's orchestrated and animated, terrifies him.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

So as part of that getting the signature, part of it is getting their name and their contact details, isn't

SPEAKER_01 44:39

it? Yes, yes. And then on that little app, they get an immediate– PDF of it all. So my record keeping is excellent. I can get back to them, they can get back to me.

SPEAKER_04 44:51

Does that mean there's an opportunity to sell these people prints when they, now you have

SPEAKER_01 44:55

the mailing list? Yes, but there's a lot more follow through than that and I think that's going to come more from photo merchant. Yeah, right. And emerging of those sort of possibilities.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

Because I know that's one of the things that they've been working with a platform that you can be at an event and as you're photographing it's being The images are being published straight to a website. Like this, if you choose to do this, of course, it means there's no editing in the process. And I assume that you like to make sure the best

SPEAKER_01 45:22

pictures get out. Oh, God, Jess. You wouldn't even let your mother see your worst shots. I mean, someone says, show me all your shots. I said, my mother, God rest her soul, she doesn't see them. Yeah, right. Good photography is in the editing. Don't let anyone see your bad ones. Yeah, so

SPEAKER_04 45:37

that doesn't quite work for you. What if there was an editor in the middle?

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Oh, absolutely. You know, I don't mind delaying it forever. I can delay that six hours. I'd love to. I think when I speak to them, they were talking about that too. Yeah, so that when

SPEAKER_04 45:50

people get back home after the event, they get the email saying, hey, the gallery's up. These are the images you're tagged in. And I know they're doing face recognition as well. So perhaps the images, if you've said that this is this person, I've given permission, and they appear in a group photo later on. then perhaps it'll pull the group photo that they're in as well as part of their... The

SPEAKER_01 46:10

only thing is there's a lot you can do. There's just you need to be very careful you don't get pulled through to lots of things that just take a lot of time with very little return.

SPEAKER_04 46:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

So I would actually now... I mean, I think one of the important things of getting permissions is that there's a boundary around it. In other words, if I was... I don't think I've done it at Mardi Gras in that sealed off area, but it is. It's like giving yourself license.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

There's a number of ways you do that in your dress by having a lanyard. I've often gone out with a lanyard and accreditation, even if you don't need it.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Because it gives you legitimacy in the space. Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 46:49

yeah. It's like putting a council jacket

SPEAKER_01 46:50

on. Exactly. High vis. You know, I find it works really well. People acknowledge that you're just doing a job.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 46:57

yeah. As opposed to, who's that lurker? Yeah, yeah. which is uncomfortable for everyone.

SPEAKER_04 47:03

That's right. And, I mean, I think the thing is you've got a credential. Anyone who's going to have a look at your website will see that it's a real thing. Yeah. And so are you tempted to, back onto the website and the writing and the stories and the image, are you tempted to or have you looked at towards paywalls and ways to restrict who can see it or membership

SPEAKER_01 47:22

to your… We, meaning me and my advisors… I've been developing this now for a year. Right. Okay. Beforehand, I was just contributing off, okay? But in the last year, it's now developed onto a full website. And I thought, yes, you'd put a paywall. But in the end, I think it's about getting eyeballs there and commercialising that.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

Because you don't have advertising on there.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Not yet. But the other thing too is that I've investigated with people doing websites and news websites and that, and the reply I got back is that digital returns just keep going down. So what they were getting per click 10 years ago is nothing. So I think– and that's a cycle– The sites I'm talking about were like a cycle to the 24-hour news, and before you know it, it's just full of rubbish.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Well, you can see it now. You go to any of those news websites.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

I can show you the one later that I'm talking about. It is full of rubbish.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Yeah, yeah. Everywhere, just about everywhere I go, you find that you just... beleaguered by click here and click there. You don't know where is dismissed and you don't know where is okay and you end up on another website just by– yeah, it's not healthy. And I think when it comes down to it, it's the content that makes

SPEAKER_01 48:31

it. The content, yep. And I think I'm looking– actually, we're just starting affiliations, to tell you the truth. Right. And there's a couple of aspects to that. Me and my photo buddy– did a project in Sydney toward the end of last year where I was asked to give a speech. So I went and researched a story on the topic they wanted, Warhol. And I did it. And I know about as much as you probably do about Warhol until I start researching. And then I wrote it up. And to my utter pleasure, everything's changed because of COVID. I realised that the big summer exhibition for the Tate Modern, their summer just gone, was Warhol. And I thought, great. All I have to do is report on what people think it is now. Okay. Now, because of COVID, they had to close, of course, twice or three times. And then they ended up putting about half it online. So I can tell people in Australia about this and they can follow through from here. And the development on that I've noticed now is that the National Gallery in London is now charging£12 for an online exhibition. Okay. And so... I mean, of course, we'd all like to touch and feel and smell the stuff, but the reproduction on this stuff is pretty good. And then you can read the scholarship where it's at now. I think all those institutions are pivoting around. That was a word someone said they never want to hear used again. Well, I haven't said that. No, but everyone's learning. Not everyone's rising to the challenge, but some are. And the fringe, for example, I followed Edinburgh Fringe from a distance last time. And there was a number of things that were done online. And, of course, they found out suddenly they had an international audience, whereas everyone assumed you've got to pack your bags and fly over there. And for some things, you will be able to do that. And the more that gets better packaged and people learn how to do it, I think that's going to be one of the great things coming out of COVID. You think it

SPEAKER_04 50:31

will be an addition, though? An addition. Because I do doubt the full success of something that if it is all moved online–

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Yes, we can break that one open a bit more, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:43

I've been to a couple of, or seen recordings of the, you know, you can see the opera at the Met. You can go to a cinema here and you can watch a performance and see the whole thing. And it's charming, but it's just nothing like. But you're not there. Yeah, and I think that's part of it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

True. And I was looking at Warhol going, well, he's pretty flat reproduction stuff, so maybe there's not much more to be seen than what's… I

SPEAKER_04 51:08

think you have

SPEAKER_01 51:09

to stand in front of that, don't you? But the next one, the big exhibition in the National in London in the autumn, their autumn, was Artemisia, you know, the… the lady Baroque, the female Baroque artist who's being majorly resurrected at the moment, and she's very good, of course.

SPEAKER_04 51:27

It's very beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah. I haven't paid my 12 pounds online yet to have the exhibition experience, but, you know, they've got good exhibition designers over there, and I'm sure they're responding pretty well to get to a point where it's a saleable product. Yeah. And, you know, I can write about stuff like that because we're now seeing it differently. Yeah. I followed a group in Sydney, we took photos and made a story, who were putting together a Tonight Show concept.

SPEAKER_04 51:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

And they also got involved. So

SPEAKER_04 51:59

Tonight Show concepts where you interview, there's this host and there's interviewees.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah, and cabaret sort of. Yeah, and they come in and out with an act in between. Correct, correct, correct, correct. Now, they were all trying to get this up, you know, a bit more sophisticated than Don Lane's day, but like it's all moved on. And, but what the first thing they had to do was sort of, they got involved with Ticket Tech.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

because they had to prove that it could be saleable and what all the moving parts were. Oh, right. Yeah, so one of the great lines I wrote last year, which I'm quite proud of, all the people doing stuff from the sofa early in the COVID, you can only go so far on the sofa. Yeah, yeah. It was about these highly professionals, out-of-work people putting something together with top-quality people in a different paradigm. Yeah. And I was watching that process. and I interviewed the producer, I said, don't tell me how many paid. It probably will ruin the story. But they've been in there to put the infrastructure together to see if it's going to happen. And that's an important stage. I think it's worked in many cases. It's an important stage to

SPEAKER_04 53:02

do. The Tonight Show, Johnny Carson, whatever the thing is, I think that's one of the formats that's possibly actually worked because we're used to getting it delivered on the television. And sure, they do have live audiences, quite a lot of them. But I think they've functioned in that world where the performer might be at home. And maybe they don't have the same hair and makeup you're used to seeing them. I'm thinking Stephen Colbert, he did a great job of surviving the pandemic by doing it from home. And his wife was the audience. And I don't see why he married her. She just sits in the corner giggling at him.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

And any comedian wants him to laugh. Everything's changed and everything's up for grabs. It really is. Creatively, that's the most exciting thing at this moment. I'm sort of more of a glass half full person.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

And

SPEAKER_01 53:44

I'm going, wow, things are different. What can change? And some of them are... what should have happened a long time ago, and some of them people haven't thought of yet, and we still don't know where we're all going. And

SPEAKER_04 53:58

that's

SPEAKER_01 53:59

been your

SPEAKER_04 54:00

experience as well with this website and what

SPEAKER_01 54:02

you're trying to do. And talking to other creatives. I spoke to a performer here just the other day, and I've seen her up in Edinburgh two or three times, and I said, you know, if Edinburgh is open this year, would you go? And she said, nope, because we've all got to rebuild here first. And I just thought that was a good response. Interesting. Interesting. You know, they've got a structure to put back into place. And she also said, interestingly, and I'm going to have to use this in a thing, she said, the shows I did, and I know the shows, they were only 18 months ago, and she goes, people say put that on. She goes, it's for another time. That time has changed. It just doesn't sound, ring true to me anymore. And I think that's a very sensitive, creative person saying that. what spoke to people only 18 months ago is no longer relevant not that it doesn't

SPEAKER_04 54:53

yeah

SPEAKER_01 54:53

she's now made and everyone who's doing good stuff here spent their lockdown developing the character everyone i'm speaking to

SPEAKER_04 55:01

yeah i wonder if these individuals are struggling with without a donald trump you know you could put him into it i know but i'm just thinking that he was

SPEAKER_01 55:08

such a a good target i don't do i don't follow stand-up comics because they're not visual and that's probably their content i'll wipe that off from here

SPEAKER_04 55:17

yeah

SPEAKER_01 55:18

no no

SPEAKER_04 55:18

it's actually you know i just wonder because it's like the world political scene has dulled thankfully like i'm i'm incredibly grateful for it but you know the people had to wake up and had content to deal with every day that this clown was putting out yes

SPEAKER_01 55:34

you don't need clowns no you don't well you're kind of Well, it was a parallel universe. It was a parallel universe that had come to life and it's all gone. Four years. And thank God. Oh, yeah. Because it was Looney Tunes. Yeah. Utter Looney

SPEAKER_04 55:50

Tunes. But that and the pandemic, both of those items have been incredibly disruptive to these past four or five years for the arts. And I think stand-ups have had a pretty good time with it. And, you know, there was plenty of fodder. But they're all glad it's all over. But now that we've gone through that, I think you're right. I think we're going to really start seeing some significant change to

SPEAKER_01 56:13

what's... There is... I feel this is what Europe must have felt like after the Second World War. It's a blank canvas.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

And it's all going to move on in directions we're not quite sure yet. Some things will come back, but other things will never come back.

SPEAKER_04 56:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

And... if you sort of grasp that, and like, we couldn't be in a better place in the world to start figuring this out. We're in a much better place than, you know, like...

SPEAKER_04 56:38

Anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

One of the guys I spoke to the other day is a Swedish comic, and for another story that has to be turned into a show... The Swedish comic who got stranded in Adelaide for the year because he was here for the last spring. And if you remember, March of 15 is a closed down day, basically. All the borders started shuttering on him and he's still here. So he developed a show while he was here. The Swedish comic who got caught in Adelaide for COVID. That's a show. Now, the worst thing is he could have got home.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Yeah, they had a shocking time in Sweden.

SPEAKER_04 57:10

It's the last place you wanted to be. I mean, it was the first place that really suffered, wasn't

SPEAKER_01 57:13

it? Well, it didn't come off well. And there was another one who actually got back here from New York. He goes, first thing I did is I flew to New York. What a mistake, he said. And I don't know how he got back here, but he went into quarantine and did all that, and he's performing here now. Those very few things are giving us a very strange international flavor when there's usually tons of it and there's almost none here this year.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

Yeah, yeah,

SPEAKER_01 57:36

yeah. But they're interesting little side stories. Everyone who's performing and doing interesting stuff here that I've come across, it's their response or how they've responded to COVID. Yeah, yeah. Not necessarily about COVID, but Jesus, everything's different to what we thought it was and where we thought we were going. How do we recut this? And that's the– That's pretty exciting. Yeah. I find that the fascinating creative story while we're here, while I'm here. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

Yeah. So the other thing, going back to your website, I noticed that you're doing a lot of stills combined together with music. And I think it's– Thank you. It's really beautiful. Tell me what

SPEAKER_01 58:12

that

SPEAKER_04 58:12

is

SPEAKER_01 58:12

and how it came about. Well, I think it's a little bit unique. It's not that difficult, so it can't be that unique. I love stills. I ask

SPEAKER_04 58:21

you, we were doing video like a week ago, and you're shaking your head going, no, I don't want

SPEAKER_01 58:26

to do video. I get that. The analogy I've used for years is the wedding video. You can hear Russell, Russell, Russell, here she comes. You go, oh, God, this is awful. You need high production values and a high budget to achieve the same things. a photograph isolates. I don't think I have to persuade any of your listeners on that. It isolates and makes particular. And it makes it particular. And I have always found that the shooting of the shows, you get such atmospheric shots. I love it. And you go, this is closer to the essence of the show than even their publicity shots. And I can translate that story in a new medium, not just reproducing what they do, because... I don't think I've ever spoiled the story of them. I've been doing them now for several years. Photo motions, I suppose they're called. That's what you've called them. I've called them. I don't know what else. They're photos and they move. But the other thing that there's always a problem with licensing for music. And I sat down with the people at APRA and they said, go for a showreel license. We'll guide you through. Right. And that's what I got. So you spent

SPEAKER_04 59:39

good money, serious money on the audio, the sound, music licensing.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

It's not that expensive. Right. Once you find out what to do and what it's for. It's not for social media. It's not for that. It's for showreel purposes. And you can broadcast it from my website or most other performers when they license music. They also get the rights to use it for showreel purposes. It's a really modest sum and it's legal.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:05

That's what

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

you want. But it's not– again, anyone from PR going would say, can I put this on Insta? I'm going, no, you can't. But they don't understand that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:13

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

That is the wrong use for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

But I've made up a showreels page and it feeds in from the editorial. So you can experience– what you might expect from the show. And really, it's designed for producers, directors of shows to see it from a distance. Yeah, yeah. I would love it to take off more than it really has, because I think it's so much, so obvious. It's so much cheaper, easier. I mean, people can come in and do their little videos much, as a smaller pack now, but in the old days, and even now, they disturb the environment. I just sit quietly on the corner of a show, click it away with my soundproofing, if needed, and... Then I select the photos, I'll get their list of songs and get a representative feel for the show. And the sound, the music, maybe photographers would appreciate this, I'm endlessly fascinated that you can just put a soundtrack down and suddenly there's an association between the music and then it bounces away and then it comes back. And you can just bounce things. I think they add a different level of communication about it. It's not actually reproducing what they do. It's impression of what the event was.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:28

Well, there's always been like a genre for photography that kind of vanished or got hidden was the audiovisual idea where there is sound to carefully timed pictures. And the two together made a better thing than just a collection of pictures. Because, I mean, I'm a... Mine

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

don't seriously syncopate. No, synchronise.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

But what they do... they move in parallel, and at times they're moving together, and at times they're moving apart. And what I find is that that makes more meaning. Yeah. And I almost can't anticipate it. Yeah. And I just go, leave it. It's saying something. Yeah. Just leave it. That's lovely. But not over-syncopate it, and certainly don't syncopate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:13

It's not sitting there thinking about...

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

No, but there will be an obvious thing in the music where it stops, and I'll just adjust the thing... I use Photomagico. I was going to ask what you were building. It's Photomagico. And people are saying go to Premiere or whatever. It's a German slide making.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:34

Just for that purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

That's what it does best. And it's simple. It's straightforward. I've used them for a long time. Of course, when I was traveling in Germany, like I often do with suppliers, I rang them up and we met them. I love what they do. That's great. So Photomagico with an F. Yeah, wow. I might write that down. Yeah, really simple. And as with all programs, I think if you design what it can do, design for what it can do, you'll do a lot of stuff, not try and change its world.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:02

No, it's really effective. And I think, like I'm a believer that there's very rarely one image that tells the story of an event or whatever. I agree entirely. Just like an album, a record designing an album by a

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

band. This for me is the new photo essay. Is that right? Oh, I think it's like doing a photo essay, like in the old days of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd have 15 or 20 shots. Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

And again, I can't tell that story. I mean, I want to tell more than just the iconic, I don't even like the word hero shot. Again, it's straight from PR or advertising or consumer publishing. Yeah. It assumes you can bury everything into one. Well, I don't want to. No, no. I don't want to.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:41

No, I think so. And that's pretty evident with your site. I mean, you've always got to have that image that... starts the story off because you need visuals to grab people into it. But I can see that as you flow through the text, you've inserted lots of images. And then having the show rule, I think it's a very...

SPEAKER_01 1:03:56

I give myself all sorts of limiting parameters. For example, I never change the order of the photos. Right. And again, if you're doing advertising, you just make it the most effective. Yeah. No, but it's like a discipline. I'm giving the arc of the... I'm dictated by the arc of their story. Are you shooting differently because of that, do you think? No.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:19

No?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

No. No. I remember early in the piece thinking about it. I can get a better mix of pictures by moving these around like in the normal editing process. I'm thinking I've already choked out of several hundred or more. I've only got about 20 or 30. I'm going, just reveal them. I think the original thing was reveal it as I saw it. Yes. Because we're communicating our photography eye as well. And that's the same in mass events. So, for example, at Mardi Gras, you would have seen the greatest free party on earth. That is the same order as my exploration. Now, I know that, but it also gives me a reason. Part of it's the arc there too. And you'll observe things and you move through the space and things change and you begin to understand it. And I've always found it really useful to keep to that. And then just find a representative song and put it underneath. and transmit the experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

That's fantastic. Well, we're getting really close to our wrap-up time, but I did want to ask, we were talking about, I said, how do you make a living out of this? And you said, well, I haven't worked that out quite yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

Well, I have, but then it gets undermined and then it happens again. But we were talking about... Prince last week.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

Right. Yeah, that's what we're talking about because that's the reason why you were here. Yes. And I just think that there is actually an opportunity for people who... Think about amateurs at Mardi Gras, because they're not mostly, they're not people that make a living from their performance, but this is their time

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

in the spotlight. Sorry, the people, not the performers, the 10,000 marchers, they're actually average punters. That's what's magic. They have unselfconsciously done massive creativity. I think that might be where your opportunity is. Correct. You're absolutely correct. And we just need to nail it at that time. But again, with that idea that you need to put parameters around things, I was about to say, and I was talking to you last week about it, we started doing events last year where they were social events and they employed me as the keynote speaker. The client wanted media wall photos. And I'm going, oh, boring. So

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

media walls where they put the logos behind.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:27

It's a typical red carpet looking

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

thing. Correct. And what we used it for, I feel, was as an icebreaker for the people who come in and make them feel special. But there was no value for photography in it. The client was happy. They think that's what they want. And I coerced my co-worker because he said, that'll do. I said, no, it won't. We actually have now proved it. We did a setup where there was sort of nice seating and background and backdrop. It was in an old Edwardian club in the city, in Sydney, and people had dressed up. So once they're dressed up for any event, you know that they want to be validated. Yes. So we sat them down and we posed them and we had the studio lights in. So easy. It was an act, but it was also an act of attention. Yeah. And... They came over. So after the dinner speech, they wandered over. They would sit with their good missus or their partner or their friend and get a shot done. And I want them all to be more like that. But at the moment, they're still like this. We sold$1,300 worth of prints off the back end, which was fantastic. And it literally is proof. I keep saying this media wall stuff is for Insta. It's for social media. Yeah. Because that's about I was there. And another reflection I can give you on that, on where the value of photography is, is that I remember I'm just around the corner in Sydney from a big gym that always puts itself into Mardi Gras. And the owner says, oh, come over here and do this stuff. And they also start posing. I said, no, you do that yourselves. I'll do what you're doing. He goes, I get you. So... I see no point in me doing what people can do with their own iPhones, yet everyone thinks that's what they should be doing. Right, right. So I just said it very quickly. I said, you do that stuff yourself. You do it just as well. Yeah. That's a really good point. And I said, I'll follow you up the street instead and get the thing as it's happening and get you guys working. He goes, oh, I get it, totally. He got it straight away. And it's about the value of photography and where we spend our time. And we spend our time on doing things that– You can't, you know, the punters can now do a lot. What the punters can't do, we should be concentrating on.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:41

That's really interesting

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

because that,

SPEAKER_04 1:08:43

I think a lot of people might feel crushed by that idea. You know, like, but that's my job. I take these hero, here we go again, those photos that, what they're doing it themselves in my career. No, no, no, it's not. You need to find.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

We find elsewhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:56

Elsewhere. Isn't that interesting? And

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

so I think we need to be always aware. I think we can almost finish on this point. The value of photography is doing what they can't do. And you find those options. I'm at the front row of a show. No one else can do that. And I can only do it here in Adelaide and in Edinburgh where they invite you in literally.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:15

That's a great thought process.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Well, Rob,

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

I wish you all the success for sustainability in this because really we don't– I know we'll imagine getting rich is a great idea, but the reality is we want to keep doing what we're doing. You clearly love what you do. I understand what I do. You understand it and you communicate it back to others like myself who is– I wouldn't say I'm illiterate in it, but I certainly feel like I understand better what you're doing and what the performers are doing because I read your work. And that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to communicate these

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

worlds. I see myself as a link between– Of course, we're creatives, and as photographers, we're all observers, so we see things anyway, and I think that led to my writing. But I can interpret fairly quickly what they're doing. I just do that innately as a creative person, but I can communicate that back to the general public, what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:04

Yeah, that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

And they go, oh, that's so interesting. I should see it, but it's not a sell. It's a tell. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:14

See you soon. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

UNKNOWN 1:10:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:22

Welcome back, listeners.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:26

How was that? That was a big gap in time.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:31

That was a big gap in time. It was great

SPEAKER_03 1:10:33

to hear, Robert. Because we didn't listen to the podcast. We should do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:37

That's what we should do. Like, listen to the podcast between the gap.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:44

Oh, right. We could actually sit down and–

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

And then listen

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

to it together. Get a bottle of wine.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:48

That's it. Yeah. I could play computer games and ignore you while I listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:54

Yeah. And then afterwards we could then–

SPEAKER_03 1:10:56

Actually talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:58

Yeah, exactly. Well, we did listen to it, but it was a few weeks ago. We always do before we do wrap up. But then things got in the way of–

SPEAKER_03 1:11:05

Oh, my God. So many things. So many things. And I'm at uni now.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:09

You are

SPEAKER_03 1:11:10

at university. Doing my one course in contemporary art. Which– oh, my God, I love it so much. I love it. What

SPEAKER_04 1:11:19

is it about your love about going back to school? Because I can't– it worries me a bit. I think there'd be aspects that would be really nice, having all the people to talk to. You seem to be enjoying the people, though. Oh,

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

well, no. I like the two girls in my class that– honor me by actually speaking to me everybody else just looks frightened and walks away but um these two girls are just so sweet and lovely but because i'm the old lady in the class you know so i'm the one going you know do your shoelace up and that sort of stuff um and they're all girls there's one boy who comes very infrequently to the actual show um to the actual class um but yeah it's it's three-dimensional contemporary art so we've been doing like glassblowing and pottery and we can do jewellery and we've gone to a bunch of exhibitions and we've done sculpture, which I fucking loved doing sculpture. It was so much fun. It's the best. That's great. And because what you do is you just do that. Like you're not doing that and then worrying about this staff issue and then chasing this supplier and then– blah, blah. You're just doing that one thing. And it's all about art. So, like, you know, like you kind of– you could go, oh, well, what are they going to do in pottery? Like, oh, fancy bowls. Well, that's just bullshit because there's so much incredible contemporary art that is happening in ceramics, in clay. Like people who build– oh, this one artist, I can't remember her name, but she builds these, like, incredibly– complicated and detailed worlds inside of a room all out of fresh clay. And they basically disintegrate over the course of the exhibition. They sort of fall apart from the humidity in the air and then they disappear. Dust to

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

dust.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

I mean, it's just the coolest thing ever. And it's so detailed and beautiful. So like you just kind of have these like, ah, ceramics, what's it going to be? And then it's like, amazing. The other artist does these huge pieces where it's all clay in the ground and she like pushes her body through the clay to make the piece. Like that would get– you'd get some shit under your nails doing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

I know. I walked up and touched one of your pieces and then it was like, ah, it

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

was all everywhere. Yeah, yeah. It's quite sticky. So no, I love every– it's like the highlight of my week.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

Four hours of bliss.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:00

I would have thought like having dinner with me would have been the highlight.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:03

Yeah, for 25 years having dinner with you has been the highlight of my week. Just that

SPEAKER_04 1:14:07

first one. Oh, well. Oh, well. So, you know, back on Robert, when he gets underway and he gets his products going, I think it would be worth reporting back to people because there's not many people doing event work that are looking at, you know, like shooting events where people go like red carpet stuff on that. and then selling stuff back to him. So I'm really curious to see how he gets on with that. Yeah. Because he wants to add in some of our more complicated products, you know, frame stuff and the like. And I think

SPEAKER_03 1:14:36

there's– He's so innovative, like so happy to like– Try a new twist on things. It's

SPEAKER_04 1:14:42

great. Totally. No, it's going to be interesting. So, are you ready? Because we're doing some moment of colour

SPEAKER_03 1:14:47

stuff. Oh, hell to the yes we are. And whose idea was this?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:49

This was Kate's idea. Correct. And we love our Kate because she is a full ideas lady.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:56

I'm big on ideas, low on execution.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:00

So this, what we're doing, we're going to talk about female photographers. Why are we talking about female photographers?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:05

Because photography is a goddamn sausage fest.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:09

Oh, yeah. Well, is it still?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:12

What's the opposite? Yeah. What's the opposite to a sausage festival? Hang on. No, no, no. Don't. No. No. I shouldn't even say sausage fest because you can be a man without a penis. So, you know. But what I'm saying is that when you look at people who are prominent and in positions of power inside of the photography industry, it is highly dominated by men. I think it's changed. No. I disagree.

UNKNOWN 1:15:38

Nope.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

I disagree. I mean, in certain industries, like I think baby and family photography, absolutely dominated by women, 100%. I mean, I can't think of an influential family baby photographer who is male. But other than that, weddings, dominated by men. Fashion, dominated by men. Commercial, are you kidding? Are you kidding?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:05

Well, I know quite a few female commercial photographers.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

No, I'm not talking about the population. It's like graphic design. There are more female graphic designers out on the planet as a whole than there are anything else, right? There's tons of female graphic designers. They're pumping them out every day. But the ones that are in positions of power inside the industry, the ones that are senior designers, the ones that are art directors, the majority of them are male. That's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:33

So

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

the people that get industry recognition, people that are in galleries, the majority of those people are men for photography as well. Because we live in a, say it with me together kids, patriarchy. Patriarchy. Correct. And therefore, we thought we would talk about female photographers who aren't necessarily contemporary, like some of them are. Well, this first one.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:03

Yep. Is from like the very beginnings of photography.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:06

That's right. She was working around when you were born.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:11

Hey. And what we like about her is because if you think about this either chronologically or– Chronologically?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Are you going to do this in chronological order? You can't do it in chronological order. You can't just go, these are all the women photographers. You're not talking about any of the others. Her name is

SPEAKER_04 1:17:31

Anna Atkins.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:34

You're doing that because it's the first one that happens to rhyme and be us. I don't

SPEAKER_04 1:17:37

think Anna Atkins rhymes.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:39

Well, it's Anna Atkins. It's alphabetical though. Atkins, yes. Alphabetical and Atkins. Atkins, yeah. Your business name.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:46

Atkins, Atkins, Atkins. My actual surname as well, you know. Yes,

SPEAKER_03 1:17:49

that's what I hear. There's no shell company. Correct. It's not a shell company. And your name's like John Smith.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:55

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:56

And the Atkins were some mob of weirdos from 20 years ago. Well, they kind of were.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:00

Well, longer than 20 years ago. A lot of weirdos from a lot longer before that. We were wheelwrights originally. We made wheels. And Atkins is some sort of entomological variation of a word that meant he makes wheels.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

Really?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:12

Yeah. So nothing to do with photography. But our Anna in the focus here, she was– this is before a lot of technologies had come about. She was using a cyanotype process,

SPEAKER_03 1:18:28

which

SPEAKER_04 1:18:28

everybody loves.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:29

I mean, if you haven't done cyanotype, you haven't lived. I'm sorry. Blue is my favourite colour. I love blue in all its forms, in every kind of blue. There is no blue I do not love. And cyanotype has all the blues. Every last one, they're all there. And it's so easy to do. You can do it at home. You can do it on fabric. You can do it...

SPEAKER_04 1:18:50

On your underpants?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:51

Anywhere, anything. It's like the best thing ever. It's just heaven on a stick.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:55

So basically, you have the... material that you want to leave the image on, soaked with the chemistry, and then you put the object that you want to record on top of it and you put it out in the sun, and the ultraviolet light, where the light hits and is not blocked out, will go blue.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:12

And where it's blocked out, you get a lovely creamy white to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:16

Well, you get whatever colour is underneath it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:19

It doesn't have to be white. Anna was doing this in 1843.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:23

1843. She was like a pioneer.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:27

And she was doing it for, she was interested in botanic art, so it's kind of ideal for those outlines of plants and the like, and then she moved on to algae and seaweed and all that kind of stuff

SPEAKER_03 1:19:37

as well. But wasn't seaweed her first thing? Didn't she do the first prototypes with seaweed?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:42

No, it wasn't the first stuff. She was just mucking around with all sorts of planty stuff, but she pivoted across to that. And one of the things she did do is she just didn't make it she would do multiple copies of the same thing to bind into books to give them to people. So she did mass production but by herself one at a time. And they're not printed. Actually, each one's a unique one. And the books actually survive to today, quite a few of them. So the process is very sturdy. The results are really lovely. She got really, really good at it. And she's super quality paper. That was one of the things. She got the best quality paper.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Just like we do.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:22

Exactly. Yay, that can stay. Well seen, Kate. But she's really cool. We'll include a link to her website to check out. And there's a bunch of stuff in the herbarium at the British Museum that was donated. And she died in 1871. And she actually did use a camera at one stage, but there are no surviving photographs she made from the camera. And she's a photographer. Yeah. She's capturing light onto paper. Yeah. She just didn't use a camera for it. Some

SPEAKER_03 1:20:52

of my favourite stuff. Didn't you just– you've just bought a book about–

SPEAKER_04 1:20:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's it called? It's camera-less. Actually, I haven't got it here because I've loaned it to Ian

SPEAKER_03 1:21:01

North. Oh, that'll be the end of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:03

Yeah. No, maybe we'll bring it up in the next one. But it's a– no, what I'll do is I'll put a link into it. And it's a beautiful book.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:11

It is a beautiful– it's some of my favourite books. kinds of works are non-camera photography. Yeah, camera-less

SPEAKER_04 1:21:17

photography. In fact, there's a piece in there. Back in the day when we used to process seabrochrome, there was an artist that we had talked to who would take big sheets of seabrochrome, and seabrochrome is a positive-to-positive paper. So if you shine blue light onto it, you get a blueprint. You shine red light on a red print, right? So it's not in the negative. So if you have a slide, that's how you print from your seabrochrome, and it was a thick plastic. It was like 600 GSM and it was like a really– it was a plastic that was so thick and kind of sharp when you cut it that you could actually cut your fingers handling it. It's really solid like a knife's blade.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:57

Can you still get super chrome?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:58

No, you can't. There's old stocks around the place that some people get and the chemistry is extremely complicated and actually quite dangerous when you mix certain parts of it together. At any rate, this guy– this artist, I can't remember his name, but there is some work similar to this in the book, took it out into the surf, put the seabroke chrome under the waves and then fired big strobe flashes and contact printed a wave. Shut up. Straight onto seabroke chrome paper and then took it out the surf and then processed. So at night, take it down to the beach, put it under the wave, fire a flash on it. And so contact printing a wave. So there's one, there's a contact print of a baby, which is just gorgeous. Yeah, it's so beautiful. Kneeling in a bath of water. How's that? Talk about this fabulous book, and I can't even tell you what the title is, but it will be in the show notes. And thanks to Gary Sauer-Thompson who recommended I get this. He got it through the Photo Access College, which Photo Access is a Canberra-based– it's not really a college, but it's an art collective, and you can subscribe to it. And I'm part of that subscription. They send you a new book. You get a few books a year. And this book he said to me, hey, you've got to check out this, The Art of the Camera-Less Photograph. And I think that might be the title of it. Don't hold me to it. And I said, I've got to have that and immediately bought a copy of it and then took it around and loaned it to an old friend because I go and visit a few photographers every now and then. And Ian North being one of them, he was a former curator of the National Portrait Gallery and senior lecturer. He's a rock star, that one. Yeah, and University of South Australia photographer.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:28

If you're going to lend anyone a book.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:30

Well, he's got this incredible library. You should have swapped it. I know, I should have swapped. But, you know, I go around and have a cup of tea and a piece of cake with him and– I just like to bring something along to chat about besides how nice the cake is. And I took in the book, but I don't have it here to show you

SPEAKER_03 1:23:46

all. Oh, it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:47

Yeah, so we'll put a link to it in the show notes. Anyhow, people. Anyhow, people. We'll let you be. We will. We'll let you be. We

SPEAKER_03 1:23:53

will. I hope we can get our shit together a bit more this month.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:59

We do, because we've got a couple of episodes in the can. Some very exciting episodes to release. I want to thank Robert McGrath and wish him all the best with his endeavours at following the festival scene. His work is beautiful. And

SPEAKER_03 1:24:14

hopefully we have more festivals. Festivals,

SPEAKER_04 1:24:16

yeah. And you should check his work out.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:18

And can I just say... If you're a person sitting around and you have like a spare dollar or something you want to do something with, consider donating to India. There's a bunch of really beautiful organizations who are helping with the absolute horror that is happening in India. And if you are listening right now- It's

SPEAKER_04 1:24:40

about the COVID running

SPEAKER_03 1:24:42

wild. And if you are a person who doesn't believe that that's actually happening, then- you need to readjust your life thoughts because you can even just go onto Reddit and read people's stories. It is just– I mean it's– the scale of the number of people that are dying, like they're saying it's like 3,000 people a day and that that's– That's about

SPEAKER_04 1:25:05

half of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:06

No. They reckon you need to times that by 10. That's 30,000 people a day dying. Wow. It is– Beyond. And India is the most amazing place. It's one of the places I've always, always wanted to go and haven't ever managed to go. One of the most beautiful books I've ever read, Suitable Boy. Read it. It's beautiful. I don't rate the TV version of it, but the book is heaven. And so if you have a dollar, go and throw it at one of the many, many groups that are trying to help people in India.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:37

Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 1:25:38

good point. Because it's really tragic. And we're so bloody lucky in Australia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:43

We are. And

SPEAKER_03 1:25:44

go and get the shot.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:45

Get the vaccine. When are you getting yours? I'm getting mine. It should be next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:48

Woohoo. Put that shit on Facebook.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:50

I will. I will.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:52

I am waiting till they let me have it, which I think is in about 8 million people time. And because ScoMo's in charge, that'll be somewhere around 2024. You've just got to be an old

SPEAKER_04 1:26:00

man like me.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:01

That's right. That's ScoMo's priorities, old men like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:04

Well, old white men.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:05

Well, he is the prime minister for men, as we all know, because he's now put some crazy bitch in charge of the women.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:11

Unless he wasn't Tony Abbott, who's prime minister for the women.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:15

Oh, my God. Do not bring Tony Abbott up. You've poked the tiger, you idiot. Quick, hang up.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:21

All right. See

SPEAKER_03 1:26:21

you,

SPEAKER_04 1:26:21

friend. Bye.