Atkins Labcast Episode 66 - Mark Rosetto

Paul has just returned from a photographic conference ran by Mark Rosetto for his PPBN. 120+ attendees in one location for three days to discuss the business of photography is a pretty rare thing these days. It takes a special person to put this on and also bring all the warmth that can bond a large group of sole traders. Find out more by listening to this special episode.

PPBN website: Www.ppbnonline.com
Mark Rosetto coaching site: Www.markrossetto.com

Transcript

PA is Paul Atkins
MA is Mark Rosetto

PA
Hey listeners, welcome to the Atkins Labcast. I've just returned from a conference, which is something fair fairly rare these days in our industry. They're kind of Went away. The event was held on the Gold Coast and was put on put by today's podcast guest, Mark Rosetto Mark runs the Professional Photographers Business Network, which is a group focused on supporting family photographers. And by family I mean portrait wedding pets, newborns, etc. The group is incredibly supportive and cohesive, and I'm sure Mark is the reason behind this. The PPBN though is all about the business of running a photographic business, which sounds rhetorical But it has rarely been the priority in photographic conferences or support networks. And it's something we all need to make friends with, and Mark's group does this in spades So I'm sure you'll enjoy this glimpse into Mark and his PPBN as I did. And the network, the PPBN network, is always welcoming new members. So check out the link in show notes, do your business a favor, and join the PVBN. The reason I wanted to talk to you is because out of everybody I know, you're the person who's kept the flame of community going. Yes. Um and I know it's a massive ask for anyone to do and I'm so glad someone's made a business of it and I hope I hope it's paying your bills because It's gotta it's gotta work for somebody. Um you can't just have people taking from you the whole time. Uh but where did this sense of community come from? What I know I know you're an AIPP master. You were a part of all that world like I was. Where did it start? Was it before that?

MR
02:11So that's probably where it even started was you know the AIPP I got launched into from uh Nick and Jerry Jonas back in two thousand and eight said we're going to Christmas party and I went, what Christmas party? It goes, oh it's just a photography thing. Just turn up. And I'm like, sure. Anyway. From there it just kinda launched into everything else. Um actually it was way before then, it was actually two thousand seven 'cause we were getting married then. Um And this whole world opened up for me of this other community. And then we had the ARPP awards, and then the state awards, and then the national awards, and then the Dala dinners, and Just that sense of like there's like hundreds of people that are into the same thing that I am, and we can taught shop and we can taught business and we can taught different challenges. And really, really, really early, I'm talking probably 2000. Uh 2009-2010. It was me and five other people who lived in Victoria used to get together every single month. And we used to talk business. Now some of those people are my closest friends today still. So so Joel Dunn was one of those. So Joel Dunn was one. Um uh Brenton Johns from The Wedding and Portrait Studio was the other one. Karina Wells was obviously working for Enhanced Studios anyway. Um Shereen Hammond and there was uh I'm going blank on a few others. Um But we used tocatch up every month and we used to taught shop and taught business and things. And that was always so important. And then I guess when I went from Melbourne to Queensland and you know, a whole new different state, a whole new different place, and got into full-time photography business coaching. Um, there were not a lot of coaches back in 2015 Like, I know the Ice Society with Jerry just started, um, In Bed with Sue with Sue Bryce just started, Kelly Brown's, you know, Kelly Brown Online had just started around that time as well, or a little bit earlier. Um And just people needed help in the business sense of things, which is why I started the Mark Rosetto Mark Rosetto coaching.

PA
Yeah.

MR
Um

PA
But you you were like the the the the coaching stuff like before that was photography you know you you're a photographer first so your connection with Shereen and that gang and you mentioned enhanced studios

MR
Yep.

PA
Were you shooting for a studio or what was the story then?

MR
Well enhanced studios was my studio.

PA
Right.

MR
weddings as well. That was that was my studio. So we used to photograph about 500 families a year. twenty

PA
04:50Yep.

MR
Um, and I had myself and Karina and one other person. Yep. And yeah, so we used to turn over, I don't know, five hundred seats, seven hundred thousand dollars a year, photographing families and newborns and but what got you into that?

PA
Like What was before like why'd you pick up a camera?

MR
Why'd you pick up a camera? Well if you go way back, if you Yeah, that's what I want. Oh if I don't if I okay, so if I go way back of why I even picked up a camera, is that Um, I wanted to be a fireman. Don't we all? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it was 2002, and I finished my two-year degree of fireman course. You can't And the CFA uh um MFB in Victoria wasn't employing fiber firemen at all for five years. So all my mates were like, Hey you twenty one, go travel, go do something. So I moved to the Wit Sundays because I love the movie cocktail and I wanted to be Tom Cruise and I was like, I can do this. Work on Hamilton Island, Heyman Island. At that stage I was working in a bar anyway, so it was definitely right up my alley And I loved the beach. I was into life saving and all that type of stuff. And one of my mates in the Witch Sundays when we got there, his roommate or his really close friend was an underwater dive photographer. Yep. And I was like coolest job ever can I do that and she was like sure are you a photographer and I was like no I'm not and they're like okay well we'll teach you how to Take photos and things like that. Um, are you a diver? And I went, never dived in my life. How hard can it be? And she's like, so you're not a diver and you're not a photographer, but you want to be an underwater dive photographer. And I was like, Yeah Absolutely! Um so I ended up doing my open water d open open water dive course. I brought myself a camera, which is a Canon PowerShot 40. I had a big choice between a 40 or a 3. 2, which is a four megapixel camera or a three point two megapixel camera. Um so I went to four just to go extreme. Yep. Um and then um she actually left her boat after about a month later and I became a full-time underwater dive photographer. It was amazing. And that photographer, G was at our conference. I don't know if you missed that part of the conference. I actually introduced her, G. Um, I told that whole story and I was like, and she's in the room sitting right there.

PA
Oh, that's so cool

MR
07:18Which was amazing, what a full amazing turnaround. Um, I became one of the most successful sales photographers, tourism photographers In the Wit Sundays.

PA
So part of the job was you shoot them and you had to sell them what you shot?

MR
Shoot and sell. So I learnt very quickly about how to shoot to sell, how to shoot with intention. Um we didn't have this click the button six times, let the AI choose the favorite. It was like one image per frame, one image per frame, light shooting on film. And I was just after film, but I can imagine. Um, and then we showed those images on the boat on the way home and we sold those images and I got 30% of the images I sold. And on some days I was making more than the skipper With all out all the fun with no responsibility.

PA
Wow, that's great. I mean that's that's an that must have come from your um hosp hospice skills as well. The at dealing with people and keeping the banter running and all that sort of stuff.

MR
Absolutely. When you're on a boat in the Wit Sundays, when you're traveling around, there's like five key questions that you can ask anyone Where are you from? Yep. Where you're going to? What was your favorite place? If I was going to travel to wherever they are, what do I need to go see? And anything about like, you know, what's your favorite part about Australia or the Wit Sundays? Yeah. And that will spark every conversation that you need. Now also too from a sales point of view, um, I learned very quickly what a a manifest was. So not to manifest, well a manifest is who's on the boat, where are they from what accommodation they're in and what their pickup is and how many is in their party.

PA
Right.

MR
09:05So on the way out to the reef and out to Whitehaven Beach, it was very quickly established by me By reading the manifest and looking around on the boat, we had about 60 people maxed, which is really not a big boat. Generally would have between 30 and 60 people per day. I will find out who's who in the zoo. If you're staying at an expensive hotel or if you're a backpacker, we have two different conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like You know, if it was a family upthere for the week and they're traveling, if it's an anniversary, if it's something special, we photograph them. If they're traveling Australia for six months and this is month and this is week two, they're not gonna spend any money on photography at all. So I learnt who to photograph, who not to photograph And when you're on Whitehaven Beach for 45 minutes to an hour, there's certain flow that you need to be in so that you photograph in certain people at certain times before they're in the water or out of the water and get the family and all the different combinations of posing and we had a very short period of time of doing that. And then we sold it on the boat on the way home. And it was awesome.

PA
So with that, like that shoot for intention that you you you mentioned, um I gather that when you got involved with the ARPP and you started shooting for awards, you were shooting intention to please the judges and Like that's what the ARPP awards often became. Have have you ever shot just for yourself? Was there something before fi being a fireman that Put a camera in your hand that m you want to express yourself that way?

MR
Nothing. No interest in photography, never done photography, never studied it, never thought about it, never looked at it, never under the camera. Apart from just getting a parents' camera and chucking some film in it and having fun with it. Like there was no never.

PA
That's super interesting.

MR
Never. It was um end of the day I went, wow, I can do something that I absolutely love. It's really not that hard. And I can make a lot of money out of it. And then when we left the Witch Sundays, we moved to the UK. I worked I was working in a gym. That's where I learned all the sales process and the funnels and the telephone and all those different skills. Yep. After working in the gym for eight months, I actually worked for Venture Portraits in the UK. I don't know if you've heard of Venture Portraits.

PA
No, no.

MR
11:26Well, the reason why the industry does what it does today is because of venture port because of venture portraits back in 2000.PA They set the structure up.

MR
They set the structure of pretty much the luxury portrait experience.

PA
I mean I'd I'd I'd say that that probably there was I mean if you spoke to Michael Warshaw, there has been a generation uh an older than Michael, uh Peter Foden and that, you know, there's been a generation of Kodak brought all these people to us and But the modern version of it you're talking about.

MR
11:58Yeah. So when like Michael Warshaw was like y your classic portrait. Stand there Pose, lighting, good quality, click a button, and it was done. The more modern portrait was that movement, laughter, fun, personality, props, dresses, kind of downs, and and brought all this all this like character into the images, where since the eighteen hundreds Um everything was the same for I think it was I I used to know it off by heart. It was like 120 years of the same portrait. The same portrait back in 1990 is the same portrait back in 1890, but just with different people in a different outfit. So they brought the modern the modern era. Now they had a hundred studios in the UK Um I used to work at the Wandsworth studio and we were turning over a million pounds from that one studio per year. Million pounds, 2. 4 million dollars. And this is but back in 2000 and Five, four. That's wild. It was like nowadays it's you know, there are studios that do that now, a lot smaller, but a hundred studios. Um, and that's when I I I was in the sales room. This is the other funny part. I ended up walking into the job as a salesperson in the design room selling photography. So people had the shoots, we had the images. We sold collections and wall art and all that type of stuff. But I wasn't a studio photographer. I was an outdoor family travel photographer. Yep. And I was like, let me in there, I want to be a photographer. Let me, you know, let me teach me how to shoot And they were like, no, we need you in the sales room because that's where you belong and you do really well at it. And I was like, fine. Anyway, one day, there's always this circumstance. One day, a family turned up and it was a mum and dad and just an eight-month-old baby And the photographer was not there. And the manager's like, what are we gonna do? I'm like, let me add it. I can do this. And they're like, you're not a photographer. I'm like I'm like, we we sell the same artwork every single day for the last eight months. It's really not that hard. I'll just shoot what people buy. It's really simple. I know what I'm doing. Just tell me how to set up the camera. And I'm like, what are you gonna do? Send them away?PA Exactly.

MR
She's like, fine. Anyway, I called the photographer and I'm like, what do I do? She's like, Right Set the camera this, turn on these lights, put this on, sit here, keep them in this box, press a button, you'll be fine. And I was like, that's all I needed. Anyway. Let's just say the national average for the studio was 800 pounds. Yep. Way back in the day. Our studio average was about a thousand pounds. That family brought about twelve to thirteen hundred dollars worth of pounds of artwork. And I was like, ha ha, see, told you our photographer. Come on now.

PA
So they let you in the room, did they?

MR
And pretty much from there I started photographing families and then my visa had uh ran out and then I got kicked out of Australia. I mean kicked out of the UK and went back to Australia with this skill And then I I remember emailing all the photography studios in Victoria, you know, EtSite, Passionate, Shreenham, like, you know, all of them. All of them. completely naive, completely naive to the photography industry in Australia and Victoria at all. So I'm like, hey, I've just come back from the UK. I'm a salesperson. I I sell to about 20 to 30 families, uh no, it was more than that, like tw like fifteen to twenty families every week, about sixty families a month, my sales average is this, this is how much money I sell. I'm interested to work in your studio.

PA
Yep.

MR
Everyone was like We fight at our four families a week if we're lucky. Right. I'm like, ah, well that's not gonna work. Anyway, got this random phone call from a Nick Dionis

PA
He's a lovely person. And I'm like He's one of the nicest people in the industry, isn't he?

MR
He is he is a gem. He's like one of my favorite, favorite, favorite people. Um and he calls me and he's like, Hi, I run a portrait the wedding and portrait studio called AtSite. I'm interested inhaving a conversation with you. Tell me a little bit more about the portraits and what you do And I was like, cool, no worries. Had a chat with him, ended up going upstairs, going up to meet them in person. So I met Nick and Jerry and Sally. And no, mind you, no idea who these people are

PA
Nick Jonas, Jerry Jonas, Sully um Sully Sargon. Yeah.

MR
Zero idea of who they are. Walk into their office, I'm like, oh yeah, this place is pretty cool. Like, you know, it's the same as the UK studios like it's fine. It's in mind you it was for Australia it was pretty much anyway had a good half an hour chat, you know, 45 minute chat with them. I think at one stage I said something ridiculous like, you guys really don't know how to run a portrait studio, do you? Good job. Because they were wedding photographers and this was a whole portrait world. Um and which was really d

PA
Derogatory and now I take it back and I'm so sorry if they ever we've actually said it to a few well quite a few wedding photographers because the opportunity for additional stuff, at least to sell a framed print with a Not just an album. Like it's huge. There's a lot to be learnt between uh you know, between the lines.

MR
Yeah, anyway, so a long to story cut short. I ended up working with them for four years photographing weddings. Mm-hmm. Um with Nick and Jerry. That was just when Jerry started his own brand and branched off and the Ice Society and all that education s side of things. So I worked with Nick for four years. as well. I learned so much in the wedding industry was ridiculous. Um and then I started Enhanced Studios Photographing Families because we always knew I was gonna go down that road.

PA
So those guys knew that you're That you're gonna annoy them to a certain point and then you're gonna go off and annoy yourself. Yeah.

MR
18:13Pretty much. And then there was just a transition period where we transitioned from photographing weddings for them to doing family portraits And then I did um enhanced studios I ran for eight years. Um that was down in Melbourne.PA Um were you were you in direct competition then with Excite? Or they're wedding.

MR
No, I was definitely family. So so we were like, do you know how there's like portrait studios that shoot weddings or a wedding studio that shoot portraits? Yep. Et site was obviously a hundred percent wedding studio That did a little bit of portraits. We were portrait studio. They did a little bit of weddings. Yep. And the weddings that I did, I used to lose money shooting weddings. I made more money in portraits than doing weddings So for me, photographing twenty weddings per year was just for shits and diddles and just for fun because I enjoyed it, not because it was a moneymaking s side of things. I just liked it.

PA
Yeah, right. Yeah. Is it um so that studio you ran, how long did did enhance run for, did you say?

MR
Enhance enhance is still going now. So Karina Wells, she purchased Enhanced Studios off me. She's actually, fun fact, she's been running enhanced studios longer than I owned it.

PA
That's awesome. So she's still going. She's a gem too. She's amazing.

MR
Karina is an absolute rock star. She is so so so good at what she does

PA
So you're a born and b bred Victorian we, Melbourne? Yes. Frankston. Frankston?

MR
Frankston.

PA
Frankston in the hood. So w what like I've Forgive me, this isn't an insult but thought you were a Queenslander. That's right. You found your home, I reckon.

MR
19:47Absolutely.

PA
Must have been something about the the diving and all that sort of stuff that suited you well

MR
Oh, the weather, happy people, you know, all those different things. Um, is actually my wife is from Queensland originally

PA
Right.

MR
So her family lives up here. So when we had our two kids, Lily and Levi, they were two and four. And we moved up here in 2015 to be with her parents and also to for a different lifestyle

PA
Do you do you still have family back in Victoria?

MR
Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. I've got my mum, my dad, my brother, but my sister lives in America.

PA
Oh right, wow I f sorry for her at the moment. It would be a bit of a tough place to be at times.

MR
Uh, she's in Missouri. She's she's loving life. She's got a hundred and she's got A hundred acres of farmland and she is in her own little world.

PA
Yeah, that everyone I know who's over there is tends to be in that world. I mean, you say that, I say it as a glib comment, but there's bubbles everywhere where people feel comfortable and safe, you know.

MR
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.PA Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So the move to Queensland, now you you wanted to go overseas, didn't you, at at some stage? That was a part of a plan again move over with your family

MR
Uh not really. So that was um so we did a missions trip um in 2020 to live in Cambodia for two years um to work for a non-for-profit there Um, because we could, just purely because we would think that we were called to and the kids were at a great age and we wanted to do something a little bit extreme and because we can. So we moved to Cambodia on the first of January twenty twenty. Yep. But unfortunately COVID came along and spoiled that plan dramatically. And we got kicked out of Cambodia for lots of different reasons and um came back on the 22nd of March. Um and that's when that's when if we go back to your original question, that's when community really kicked off.

PA
Yeah, because it was uh you know twenty six Twenty seventeen I was on the board of the AOP people that first voted to close. And the stops and starts that happened after that And uh and I think it felt people felt the lack of community through that period and of course COVID really really put the nail in the coffin of of Absol any of that stuff. And and you know, they it reset everything. Um and Absolutely. And I agree with you. Uh so you found that that was a bit of a trigger for the professional photography business network?

MR
22:18Yeah, absolutely. So uh up until twenty fifteen to twenty twenty two it was Mark Rosetto coaching. So Before 2020, I was doing one-to-one course, one-to-one coaching. I was booked out six to eight weeks in advance. I had sprint classes. I had Master in marketing, shooting for success. I created an operations manual. I had all these coaching titter items. So it was like for coaching photographers, wedding portraits specifically. But twenty twenty came and when COVID came The first thing I did, and like I had done, you know, podcasts and walk the talk webinars and just small community stuff. But when COVID came In m when I got back in March and the 22nd of March, in all of April, so 30 days of April, we did the education exchange. So we did a one hour Zoom meeting with anyone that wanted to join for completely f for completely free. for 30 days straight in April because we didn't know as in we photographers, no one knew what was happening with COVID. So I was like, do you know what? I'm just gonna do the education. It changed. Every day was a new person with a new topic. on a Zoom and we would get anywhere between 50 to 150 people per Zoom call for that entire month. And then from there, um, you know, and then from there borders started to open and things change in May, June, July. Um we launched the Marcy Marketing in a pretty big way, which carried usthrough to June, July, August, September. But then When the ARPP was over, when it kind of, you know, was officially gone, that's when we officially started the professional photography business network in 2022. Because it's like we need something. We can't just all fall apart here. And this is that heart of the community. This is a part of like like I remember as soon as the ARPP died, I don't know if you're on that call, but we had a call with um r I think Robin Campbell's spearhead. headed a a zoom call and there was like fifty sixty people on it and it was like because it was very sudden everyone was like what is going on Um unfortunately from that call was nothing came out of it and a lot of confusion and a lot of like, I want this and I want to do this and let's do this and let's do that. And I was like, do you know what? I'm gonna run with what I've already started. I'm gonna just start the professional photography business network and I started that with with another person. And we launched. We're just a minute.

PA
Did you sit back and make a a business plan of it or you just kept following your nose

MR
It's a little bit of both. Um it's it's definitely like we were already doing interviews. We're already doing it. We were already doing master classes, we were already producing courses, we were already producing content We were already doing all this community space. We just gave it an official name and Marker Z coaching was not it. So the professional photography business network needed an arm of like, okay, so this is a collective group of collaboration of skills of photographers that are working together to lift the industry of the photography standard. And from that collectiveness was the interviews, the master classes, the live training. And then from there, we also launched um we did the industry nights. So you know for four years in a row, we went to Sydney, Adelaide, Melbourne, Brisbane. And we did industry nights with yourselves and other different trade partners and just bring the community together um once a year in every state.

PA
I mean people felt though they didn't they hadn't seen each other except at those events. It was interesting to see the faces again. Hey, tell me, were you a part of or had anything to do with Portrait Maker? Um which kind of folded I think in maybe as even folded before your studio you sold your studio But they rolled into the AIPP. Anyway, you like if you look at your membership and your content and your focus, Portrait Maker is like It's like so similar to what the your attendees are like and the feeling.

MR
Is that portrait like portrait maker was the Sue Bryce one or was it different?PA No, no, no. Portrait maker was a it was a started it was started by a Melbourne photographers and they actually they're also AIPP members. But it was it actually started it may have been actually not long after AIPP first like we're talking the seventies. Um and and the idea of it was Well, sorry you'll understand it by the the judging is the best example. Portrait maker are interested in discussing saleable images. AOPP were in uh interest in discussing stuff people had never seen before. You know, breaking breaking fresh ground. And the and when Portrait Maker folded but for the same reason AOPP kind of did, you know It just doesn't didn't make financial sense anymore. Um the Portrait Maker Group when they got into AOPP, with all their awards and their levels and everything, were just crushed because They didn't really have any standing and every time they put work up in the AOPP, it just got shot down because it was too saleable. It wasn't You know, and my question to you about shooting for the judges, that the portrait maker group eventually worked out if they wanted to play in the community of AIPP, they needed to play for the judges. And that meant saying goodbye Not saying goodbye to saleable work, but they were putting a focus on their photography that wasn't particularly around selling work. It was about getting the next award. And I'm not sure how how helpful I mean I think there's plenty of photographers who could do both. You could chew gum and walk, but there were plenty who it confused them And they thought, this isn't is this business? And of course ARPP never talked about who's got a successful business.

MR
Yeah.

PA
But I I uh you know they it should have been a Telstra Business Awards type of thing where they looked at a studio and Or a photographer. How are you doing? But you know, there's so many photographers that and these are people that probably need to talk to you, that they get into photography for the reasons that I was talking about. They like taking pictures.

MR
Yep.

PA
28:33They want to make a living out of it And then I realized, oh my God. Whereas I think you could go and do anything. You're not interested in photography p per se. You don't want to particularly be a photographer. You want to see people have successful businesses And that's tough for a lot of photographers to face that, you know, making a business out of it. You know, they they feel like they should just get a Maccas franchise or something.MR Yeah. Look, I definitely love I love the concept of photography. I love the art of it. I love the creating. I love doing things like like like I could never do coaching And photography at the same time. I I don't understand any photographer who is running a business as a full-time photographer and trying to educate at the same time. My your brain's just in two different places When I was a photographer, I loved it. Loved it. So when he talked about photographing for the fan for for for saleability and awards My rules in my studio and the way that I photographed a wedding, every photograph I've ever got an award for was a f was a client photographic work. Never contrived, never, never shot for the awards. It's always been family work. Because I would always Photograph for the family for the first 95% and I make sure that I nail it and I make sure that we get everything that they want. I photograph for the wedding album, for the client. But In the portrait and in on the wedding day, I will always, always, always, always find opportunity to shoot for the stars and to go, right. I'm gonna create something that is completely wild. It may work, it may not work, or I've seen something, or I want to try something, or whatever it is I will always every wedding at least have one or two images of me just doing something weird or in portraits, not every time, but gone, you know what? I've got the right family with the right age, with the right expression, with the right look and feel. I'm gonna do this. So it's one of those things that's like The passion is always for the photography, but it's also to make sure that the images that create are what families actually want. And there's no point photographing the same family with the same way, with the same style And not selling artwork because I need to fund this really stupidly expensive hobby. Otherwise it's just a hobby that's expensive and it's not a business.

PA
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what percentage of those that come to you for coaching do you think Uh like they're not really interested in the business side of it, but they you know they really need it. Is that most of your attendees? Probably fifty percent.

MR
31:16Probably fifty percent uh generally it it depends. Like Anyone that's new, I'm talking new like within three to five years. They're good at photography. They've made a couple of grand, tens of thousands, fifty thousand, maybe a hundred grand They're either burnt out, they know they could do better, they know they could make more money, they need better marketing systems. They kind of know that deep down in their soul, they're kind of like, I love this and I want to do it, but it's not working for me. I need to be I need to treat this more like a business. That that's majority of people. And then it's taking them through what they love. To actually turn it into successful businesses. And it all depends on who they are and their business model and indoors, outdoors, families, newborns, weddings, personal branding, pets, all that type of stuffThere's no one size fits all scenario. It is everything is crafted specifically for that person. But then there's people who are earning $100,000, $200,000. Who go, do you know what? I reckon I could earn 500,000 out of this. I reckon I could earn half a million. I reckon I could earn a million dollars. I reckon I could get A team around me. I can I can get this financial freedom And those people are just a bit of a different breed. There's very rare. Probably 10% of the people I work with are like, I'm gonna skyrocket. But most people sit in that 80, 70 to starting, 50, 60, 70,000. I want to be a photographer and I know I've got potential. I just don't know how to. to maximizing their earning capacity with one person can earn up to probably three to four hundred thousand dollars per year with really good systems and processes. And it's just finding where you fit and where you want to be

PA
Yeah, right. So, um, do you like you were talking about the difference between the UK and uh Victoria when you moved over. You said you were used to doing those you know, uh I don't know, fifteen to twenty sessions a week or seeing fifteen to twenty clients, you moved and you're seeing four or five here when you went to excite Yeah. Um what do you think the difference is between because really when you think about it, a portrait studio is often is all about how m how often do you have someone sitting in the chair getting photographed. Because the idea of a studio, they come to you, you can do s multiples in a day. Um what do you think the big difference between the UK and Australia was? Was it just population?

MR
People no it was a f Photographer. Photographers. People didn't know what the what what what to do. People didn't know the business model. People didn't know what was possible. Like it it really changed. The closest person, the closest people to knew what was possible back in the day, like In the nineteen in the nineteen hundreds. In the nineteen hundreds and early two thousands, yeah, was chain monopoly from exclusive They had that business model. Um Starshots, remember Star Shots?

PA
Yeah, yeah, but those those I mean I they kind of burnt out because There's no repeat business in that scale.

MR
Yeah, exactly. But this is this is the thing. So the idea was there, the execution was really poor But they had that high there they they were the probably original in Australia, those high level um sorry, higher volume, higher average studios. PA34:46 So so so they where you worked in the UK kind of fitted in with that model a little bit better. And I I I feel that, you know, we get a lot of we've had a lot of education because like I was photographed by Frank Crickyo in 76 at a s at a workshop teaching people how to be a studio photographer and how to sell stuff. And I've got this beautiful photograph of us, but they had this population that Made it an insane thing and I don't think Frank had that many repeat clients. You know, when you I think it was a Sydney PPPN industry evening, I think it was Nat Howe who got up And talked about three generations or I thought to myself, I don't know a single photographer that I would want to know That doesn't want that model. Like I I don't want to know photographers that don't want to see repeat business. I just I I just think that just choose through the industry and Yeah. Sets it on fire, you know, gets people up photography a bad reputation. But people like Nat doing that beautiful work for generations, my God. Yeah. That brought me to tears her presentation thinking of not not she was talking financially what I made and it was you know there's a fair bit of that braggado show that happens around your winning Wednesdays and that and that I th I always struggle with that You know, because I'm a stupid sop and and and you know, I struggle with the business side of business. Um but I just thought that was the most beautiful thing to hear. Um is that something that really drives you?

MR
Oh absolutely. We were told in the UK and when I worked for a Melbourne studio that was not at Site Very clear, not Etsite, but there was another share that I worked for for a very small period of time. Maximize every client because they're not coming back. It was very much uh and the saying goes Of course they aren't. You sh yeah. You shear the s you shear the sheep, you don't slaughter it. If you shear a sheep, that wool comes back every year and you reap the benefits every year. You slaughter the sheep It ain't coming back. So my business model at Enhance and a lot of the business models that we teach as well, it is always client focused. Client experience first above everything. It is always we had a sign above our office door when we walked out. Like yeah, and it said treat everyone like a $10,000 client Because you just don't know who people are. And it is about getting those people back through the door Like you don't want to shear the share like you don't want to slaughter people. You don't want to outprice yourself. But in the early days, early 2000, that's what the idea was It was all like, Come on, let's make as much money out of this person as I can. They're not coming back anyway.

PA
We need a Lamborghini.

MR
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. It's very much so like everything these days. Whenever anybody says any anyone that's been business for 10 years and their first question to me is like I need moreleads I will always 100% every single time say go back to your past clients.

PA
The more people you've gone you've had no trust and love you

MR
reconnect with them, which is why in the PVBN there's campaigns called the Family of the of the Season. There's client reactivation campaigns. There's um past client uh past past client campaigns and it's all specifically around like look after the people you have and you won't ever need to find someone else.

PA
Yeah, yeah.

MR
And that's what Nat was really talking about

PA
Yeah, I she I mean it was spot on and her her business is great and her and her and her work she puts out is stunning. You know, it's she's really really on point with it. Do you have you found yourself pulling uh some of your what's the term mentee, some of your students back from the edge of that you know, because you can see some people are just They're just bloodthirsty, you know, they're gonna they're gonna go out there. Have you found yourself pulling people back or you just let them find out for themselves or

MR
Oh, I'm definitely opinionated in a few of them that like I want to earn this. I'm like, buddy. You're not worth it. Like, you're not gonna get your f your A your your quality of photography is not at the standard and you're not gonna get five thousand dollars per family portrait because you're just not going to.

MR
Yeah.

MR
Um so there is a bit of a reality check. We've got this thing called a three-phase price list where we generally we we build over time. UmPA I think what about people that are ri that are good and at the top of their game and they and you can see them falling into that model where They're just, you know, chewing through their clients and and it's not a repeat business thing. Have you pulled people back from that?

MR
Um, look, if if they have zero clients, yes, because it's like, well, you're nothing like, you know, y you're clearly you know, you're hurting yourself type thing because no one's coming back. Um but I've also I was actually had a discussion with some people this morning. There are some brilliant photographers like Natalie Howe Who could be charging so much more but but here's here's the conf here's the conf confliction with that the more you charge The more marketing you do, the more client awareness you have to do, the more client experience you have to do, the higher level of everything you have to do, the higher the expectation. So it's just like more and more and more work. If you find a balance between your client experience and your price list, so like your value and how much people want to pay for it, and if they align and they're good value, bingo. They just keep coming back time and time again because they're good value. I have seen what I have seen plenty of times is photographers who have hit this price point, let's just say 2000, right? Because 2000 is just a really simple portrait kind of price point. And every like Three out of three out of five clients, two thousand, two thousand, two thousand, two thousand, every time, two thousand, two two, two four, eighteen hundred, two Two two seven hundred two thousand and it's this two thousand two thousand and they go I'm doing really well. I want to up it. I want the 2,000 now to be 3,000. And I'm like, okay, but on what I just said, something has to shift. You can't just change a price and expect everyone to pay the same Like you can't just go from like, hey, like it was this and now we're gonna charge this because we can Um you don't lose a whole lot of your clients. Now there's some people who just go, I'm gonna try it anyway. And even if that $500 more, all of a sudden, they were losing clients. They're losing bookings For that $500 more. And it's like, yeah, but I want my average to grow. And this is where the coaching side of things, sometimes it's not about the average growing. It's about being more efficient with your time and And instead of doing eight to twelve hours with your client, just do five to six hours. Or, you know, be more efficient in other areas, like change your product range, change your your digital file system, add your credit, add more product. Sometimes it's not about the average, it's about the efficiency behind it.

PA
42:20No, I I think that's brilliant advice. I I do see, you know, I do see that a lot. And I've also heard clients saying Ye if you successfully lift your prices into another bracket, you start getting customers that you like they're saying to me, I don't want to hang out with those people. You know, I don't feel connected to those customers. They're you know, they're they th theydemand more or they whatever. You know, I'd rather work with people that are match me in in my feels. And I think that's a legitimate thing. You gotta be happy with your with your work. And yeah. And and look, plenty of fo people have also said, Oh, I've just I I can't quite do it all out of photography, so I've picked up a part-time job and I think that's a beautiful thing as well to take the pressure off something you really enjoy doing. Um

MR
If you have to. Sometimes you have to. Sometimes, you know, in certain times you have to you've got to do what you do to make the world go round. And If that means you have to pick up another job for some reason because of whatever season you're in, you're doing whatever, then That's okay.

PA
Yeah.

MR
Um, it's a very humbling experience, let's put it that way.

PA
Oh, it's wild, isn't it? Like uh when you see people do it, it's I I find it quite heartbreaking 'cause I but it's just a a a feeling thing. I think when people make the decision and do it, the relief is amazing. But I got this feeling that they've had this dream that they haven't been able to make happen. Um and and look th look there's a lot of reasons why not. And sometimes they just won't they won't listen or they Yeah. Any rate, that's that's not what it's about I wanted to say the the conference uh was fantastic. Um I I don't know about you, but I felt like it was an incredible success and what I what I took away the most from it was the um inhibition amongst the attendees and the sense of community that clearly is is spinning about.

MR
Yeah.

PA
And people who You know, at all sorts of levels of the career, happy to get up and tell everyone what they're doing. And it's a lovely sense of sharing. I I did ask you on the weekend and I just thought to myself Where were the boys? Like there was only like ten percent of the audience, or maybe MR44:36 Yeah. So I'll I'll I'll answer in two different ways. For starters, with your part of the connection, the whole point of the conference, it was called PvPN Connect conference and it was a really interesting thing that a good friend of mine who wasn't at the conference was like mate How were the workshops? And I'm like, they were good. They were great. And he I better not say who was. They were like he was he was like, but but no one's talking about it. And I'm like No, they're not, are they? That's a really good point. What they're talking about is everything was great, and my feedback is that 95% of the people coming will be coming again Like the feedback has been phenomenal on all accounts. But like you said, there was such a long for connection and to see people and to finally put faces to names and names to faces and everything else that it is that's what the conference was really all about. Yes, the education was amazing, but the part of being seen and valued and finding your people far suppressed what the workshops were about and the learning. The learning was great and the feedback was amazing, but people just wanted to be around people. And it was phenomenal.

PA
And the validation thing, it's like we all need people to say, you know, you're okay. And You're part of this and like I f I s I saw that a hell of a lot at the show. And and it was great to participate in that, you know, where you're someone who's been around for a bit. And you give people the time of day. Like it's just it's being human, it's lovely. But I saw so much of that, especially up on the stage, people getting up there who You know, and singing who probably you know shouldn't be singing.

MR
Thank you, Bendy.

PA
She did a wonderful job. No, I didn't mean she shouldn't be singing. Everyone should sing. But it's it's um no, it's just an awesome it was a really good vibe. Um so

MR
Where are the boys?

PA
Where are the boys?

MR
Where are the boys? Okay, so here's my We're boys, so it's okay to say this. Here's my nonnon-filtered version of it We'll work it out on our own. There's so much on YouTube, there's so much on Facebook, there is so much on Instagram, there's so many things where you will just Figure it out on your own.

PA
So where does that come from, Mark?

MR
work it out. Men trying to, I believe, men being a little bit independent and just going, I am I don't need I'll

PA
That problem solving But also I don't want to be seen to not know what I'm doing.

MR
Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's not seen to be not knowing what I'm doing and also to Men don't have the same connection receptors that female that females do. Like like guys want to learn practical stuff and I will always go into practical mode with everything, my teaching, my education, my processes. Ask me about anything they'll be like, we need to do this. Um where females are just they're very they're a lot more emotional connected uh group of people and I think the industry is Like we are in a dominant female industry when it comes to the domestic market, families, newborns, pets And the wedding photography industry, it is a female dominant industry.

PA
I came back and checked our client base out on um Uh one of the nights I went back after I asked I you know I was asking you I asked a couple of people and I checked our client base and we're basically about sixty to seventy percent female.

MR
Yeah. And then it's just a part of like, you know Guys d not necessarily want to learn in that environment.

PA
48:30But you know, like ARPP conferences There were like and you know what, when IAPP closed, one of the biggest issues was, and it did come up, was that it was male focused and that females didn't feel like they had a way in. But at that stage the industry already was heavilydominated by females and it was one of the closing issues. You know, it was a major issue that it wasn't s and that's why Kim a refocused retreat was set up because AIPP was or felt for her and many, many others actively pro-male attendee. Um and it you know, it was just strange. Yeah, the industry had changed, but guys like going along to the event was 5050?

MR
You know, so with the event, so there's two things there. Then you had the the baby summit.

PA
Yep.

MR
Again, it was ninety-five percent female. Pretty much the same as the PvPN conference. But the event though, and I never went to the event, so you can correct me wrong here, but the event was more landscape, wasn't it? It was more landscape.

PA
Not at everything. Had everything.

MR
Is there any event that we did at the Pullman Hotel?

PA
So there there was the event there was like five or six of them. There's one in Adelaide, there was uh the every state's not every state, but there were seen um uh You know, that they travelled, right? Um and there was it went to Perth, um and it was You know, it like it was run run by Ross and Judy Eason. And like he is a uh um a landscape photographer, so it may have had the vibe of that, but there were breakout sessions for everything. You know, Heartfelt was at it. Um they had everyone, you know, it was all kind of the industry was kind of well represented. Uh I don't th I wouldn't say it was overly commercial focused. Maybe I didn't see that because of our client interest Uh maybe it's just reflective of the industry more than the first time.

MR
The Bright Festival of Photography. That is very well balanced.

PA
Yeah.MR Very, very, very well balanced.

PA
But that was started by a landscape photographer and the focus was art And exactly. And you know, and and people are going to that and I I think they're great conferences because I my argument is a lot of people pick up a camera because that something about the artistic nature of it, they found the way forward and that inspired them, right? And so to rekindle that at conferences, even if it's just an element of the conference, is not a bad thing.

MR
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So but in terms of where all the boys don't know, they're all invited. But most of our Zoom calls, most of our live training that we do, um majority of it is females.

PA
Isn't that interesting? Yeah you've got a fairly fair few male presenters as you know. Maybe the balance amongst presenters is more male than female

MR
Uh no, it was more female than male, but we needed to make sure that it was a balance of male and female. Um I I I do know in the past that different brands have got themselves in trouble due to that. Yeah, yeah.

PA
Um that's a terrible feeling when you see you know bloke lecturing to a room full of women when You know, you know there is an opportunity elsewhere.

MR
Oh, especially when it's someone like Al Payne who did the first talk and conference who Who spoke just amazing about her business. Now, what she was covering in that talk, if that came from a male The same talk, the same conversation, the same like you could just get a male and female with the same words and the same slide deck and the same everything and I tell you what it would not have landed coming from a male it would have come across totally, totally different because of what she was saying and who she was

PA
That's wild, isn't it? Like the Patriarch is a weird system. Like it's it's just there and oh god, Ilook forward to it easing up a bit, you know, because there's so much great content Yeah. And the and I know like I'm I'm not so much a I'm a tasky guy to a certain extent, but I fall for the emotional stuff and and I'm in I'm interested in it. And I know a l a lot of my mates are that way inclined too, and they would be thrilled to to be at it. But you know, getting people to go to things, Mark, it's tough, isn't it?

MR
Well that's that's the question. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it Like like we got 150 people there in total when it comes to um speakers, suppliers, attendees, and everything else. Um Yeah, there's a lot of people that had FOMO. There's a lot of people that were like, I should have gone. I should have been there. Um, but also too, it's probably a culture thing over the last five years of not doing events that it's not really on the cards. Um people should be there. Like I go to WPPI in the States. I've been to SWPP in the UK a few times. I've done NZIPP in New Zealand. And I Okay, so there is one elephant in the room. There is one elephant in the room.

PA
Tell me about your elephant.

MR
53:53There is a the the part of Like conferences aren't for me or the words of like I won't I already know it. I won't learn anything What have they got to teach me that's different? Or or I'm not really interested in those presenters. Now I set this conference up very specifically with a and with a goal in mind. And what I can't stand about conferences, and it's just the way it is, there's no change in it If I'm a wedding family portrait boudoir, headshot photographer, whoever, if I'm a genre anything, and I go to any conference in the world, apart from WPPI, because it's very much so wedding and portrait, like Out of the seven, eight talks that are happening, there's only one designed for pets. Or there's only one wedding talk. Or there's only one newborn talk. And it's like there's not really enough in the schedule to suit me. So With this conference, it was very much so business talks because we're all about business and it's genre-specific workshops. So if you're a pet photographer, you knew where to go. Family, you knew where to go. Wedding, you knew where to go. So you can learn genre specifics. Now the elephant in the room with that is like, well I won't really learn anything. Now Anyone with that closed mindset is super closed. It doesn't matter who I talk to, who I interview, or anything else. I can tell you that you and I And not going to get any piece of information that is going to be so bogglingly mind- blowingly new that you're like, oh my gosh, I have never heard that ever before We're we're we're both grey. We're salt and pepper. We've been around for long enough, right? But you know that I know that it's in the one percenters that count There is gold sprinkled everywhere in every talk, in every conversation, in everything that you can get, and there's always somethingyou get out of everything. And for some people they go I know those people. And one of my greatest friends who was at the conference who looked at all the speakers. She even came up to me and said that her expectation of the conference was really low. The only reason why she came was to to support me and to hang out with her friends. And she looked at all the speakers and then she's like, uh I kind of know them all. Like, Mark's just pulling in friends and favors from people because he just pulling in favors to come and talk at his. conference. And it wasn't until after conference where she was like, no, no, these people are some of the best photographers and educators in the world. and and trainers and they know what they're talking about and there is always something to learn from someone and it's Might not be at the workshop, it could be in the coffee line, it could be at lunch, it could be the drink at the bar.

PA
Then that's the big issue with the conference that you missed with the in industry evenings is we're all staying at the placed together. We walk out the door and we're having a chat. I mean that's that I think so much more happens in the queue for coffee. Um for for a lot of people. And and look, hey, meeting the people that ran the coffee stall with their ankle bracelets on was the best. Like it's not wasn't my takeaway from the conference, but it was just chatting with people that are on day release. I mean who would have thought that you would have had that opportunity as well? And um and and I remember, you know, just just thinking, oh this is this is cool. Um this is pretty cool. So I think you did really well, Mark, putting it together.

MR
Thanks, man.

PA
It was it was a beautiful thing and I I do hope the boys wake up. I don't know how to how to change that or what to do. But y look, I'm hoping you're gonna say you're doing it again.

MR
Yeah, I'll definitely on the cards. I'm still waiting for all the feedback to get the most out of it. That is definitely if you've been around for long enough with How we teach, that was our first pancake. Uh and there's a few adjustments that need to be made. Um, but all in all, it was Ridiculously successful. Next year is gonna be better and better because we're gonna refine a few of the processes and a few speakers and a few um l kind of learning outcomes as well Um we've just got to lock down the venue and dates again, which is a little bit of a process. Um, but we're not in a hurry. Like, you know, put in your diaries end of May, start of June next year to be within those couple of weeks. PA58:37 Yep.

MR
Um, but those people who who don't go because they might book a wedding or they might be shooting or they're going or they're shooting or booking a wedding and they're not coming to this because they're like, well, why come to this if I can earn money? It's like, well If you come to this, you're gonna refine all of your processes and earn a hell of a lot more money than just one shoot that you've done

PA
I know, I know. But look it's you can write these things off on tax if you're like I mean not that we all have a tax problem, but going going to something like that, it's for for how long? Yeah, a couple of nights. It's like it's it's great. It's it's worth everyone's investment.

MR
Yeah, I loved it. It was super fun. I had a ball. It was so cool.

PA
I did, and you balanced it all well. So so tell me what's what's up for you next? What are you what are you up what are you up to next? Um what's the big plan for you this year?

MR
Probably the big plan is to organize conference for next year. That's probably the big plan. Um we're about to revamp the PVBN website completely Uh not not not a brand new website, but just clean it up. Um we have over oh we have over 90 educators and speakers and photographers on there. We've got over a hundred and Oh, nearly two hundred bits of bits. Two hundred um bits of training of training, education. resources. It's so resource rich. So one of the biggest things that we're doing now is using AI as a search engine to find the content that people need within the PVBN. So when people go, hey, I need help with marketing or AI or systems or workflows or anything, you'll actually be able to find the content that you're after because it's grown to be a beast. Like, you know, if you think back to Creative Live and those platforms where they had hundreds of videos.

PA
Yeah. MR01:00:33 No one's got hundreds of hours. They need to know what they need to do straight away. Yeah. So and still coaching. We're back on the coaching train. If you don't know what your next step is It only takes me about 10 minutes of conversation. I'll find out exactly what it is, and then I can direct you exactly what to do. It just depends on if you want to actually take the first step and to book a a call.

PA
There was um a a term I heard I don't know if it was said out loud uh as part of this presentation or just overheard at a conversation the convers uh where there was a You had a buddy who would you'd check in with. This is a bit like if you're going through AA, I suppose, the An accountability buddy. Accountability buddy. And I thought to myself, that's like whenever I've had uh assistance, we've got a great accountant at the moment who we meet with every couple of weeks and have lunch, and she just says, Have you done that thing yet? Like and you say 'cause you say out loud I want to do that thing. And and you know what, I reckon that at a at a grassroots level, hearing that and hearing that as part of the structure of what you encourage people to do. Um I think more people could pick up on that alone, you know?

MR
I'm gonna write that down. Account Mobility buddy.

PA
Yeah.

MR
We used to do it Yeah, we used to do it um a little bit more, but we haven't done it in a little while. It probably needs to to come back. Um Because people just need to be accountable. The the hard part is at the moment I just I literally just wrote a blog about how AI is the new procrastination tool uh for photographers because it used to be retouching Retouching, mate. You spend hours retouching and editing and fixing things just because you can Now it's going on to chat or Claude or Gemini or something and researching something and that something goes to the next five things and those five things become to a 30-day plan which becomes into a 12-month marketing plan, which comes into a whole new strategy that says, do you want to redesign your business? Two hours later you've just gone, where have I spent my time? I'm never going to do anything of this. I just needed that caption.

PA
I know.MR Um So one of the things where um that accountability of of of just getting the job done. Like stop wasting time doing things that are not really necessary in your business.

PA
Yeah, and there's nothing no one better than a a mate who's in the same uh sort of business. Yeah, same space. And and who's got their own issues like that and someone you trust 'cause we all have those people we have occasional coffee with or lunch with. Um, you know, tell 'em Watch up to and get em to check in next time.

MR
I like to call it is this a good idea or bad idea? You might have heard me say that a few times. I I very, very, very, very often, before I do anything, generally have, depending on what it is I have probably 20 people on my list that I call, not all 20, randomly, be like, hey, I've got an idea.

PA
What do you think?

MR
Is this a good idea? Or is this a dumb idea? And sometimes we run with it and sometimes they're like, no, that's really dumb. You've got lots of good ideas. This one, don't do that. That's a dumb idea. And I'm like, fine. Well it's market testing of a sort.

PA
I mean we teach our cli we teach our clients to do um narrative interviews, you know, two hour sessions with potential clients or people in that in the industry or in in the potential buyers, but they don't have to be buyers. They can be friends or people you connected with, but you recognize them as a sort of person. And then you just run things by them. You say Yeah. Hey, you know, if you were this person and you were looking for this, what do you think of that? What do you think that'd be worth, you know? Without actually saying, Would you book me? Because you know That's a dumb question because your mates are gonna say, oh yeah, of course. But I'm really busy for the next six months. But yeah, like yeah, there's lots of ways to skin that cat. Anyway, hey look, I wanted to thank you for this hour Um it's been an absolute joy and hanging out a little bit with you and seeing you busy and organizing that thing. What a what a What a uh two to force that weekend was. And I just wanted to congratulate you and thank you. Yeah. It was cool. I'm so glad someone stepped up. MR01:04:58 Thanks, Paul. Thanks, Paul. And trust me, there was a lot of people who said that was a dumb idea. But sometimes we just go do it anyway. And it's like, you know what We're just gonna be stubborn and do it anyway. And um I'm glad I did it. Uh it was wildly successful. Um As you heard me say a few times, like it actually worked. Like it actually worked. It all came together.

PA
Did you actually make some money out of it though? Did it pay for your time?

MR
weeks. Look. It took me eight months to plan that. That's a lot of work next one will take me about eight

PA
Right.

MR
Six to eight weeks. Like it as I said, it's a first pancake. And I absolutely know why no one else is doing it. Because it costs a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of effort, and I remember speaking to Cali Brown. Who was a classic Kelly Brown was my one of my good ideas, dumb ideas. Yep. She's like, you absolutely will nail this, but just be warned. Here's all the things that each row.

PA
Yeah.

MR
01:06:02Um and at the same time What AI procrastination for photographers and retouching was, this conference was a procrastination for me because I was like, Oh, I can't do much more because I've got a work out conference. To be honest, I was my own main procrastinator on purpose because I just wholeheartedly I I wanted this to be so good I wanted like I was like two weeks no, it was four weeks before the conference was completed. I had Like my folder of all my talks, all my presentations, my date, my my sheets, my planning Everything was done four weeks before conference because I was like, I want to make this the most epic conference and I don't want any stone to be unturned. And it paid off in the end But next time I could definitely do it in the six to eight weeks will be off and running and now that everyone's done it before um suppliers, photographers, educators, um, it won't be that hard to pull together again. Yeah, yeah.PA Yeah, I think suppliers like it 'cause it's Easy the industry nights um to you know I think there's better value in being one place for a couple of days. And there certainly is as an attendee. You know, you as I said you get more out of the right and the left talking to someone you've not met before

MR
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So no, it was great and I loved it and I'm looking forward to doing doing it all again.

PA
today. Well, congratulations, Mark. It was cool. And um look we'll catch up soon. Thanks for your time

MR
No worries, any time. Great to chat to you. Yeah, cheers.