The Big 3
The Big 3 with CPA economists Mihir Torsekar and Andrew Rechenberg breaks down the three biggest stories shaping U.S. trade, industrial policy, and the American economy each week.
From tariffs, China, and supply chains to inflation, manufacturing, and economic security, Mihir and Andrew cut through the noise with sharp analysis to explain what’s really happening—and who it benefits. Focused on what matters for American workers and producers, The Big 3 connects the headlines to the deeper forces reshaping the U.S. economy—and what that means for the future of U.S. competitiveness.
The Big 3
Wartime Footing: How the United States Can Reverse China's Dominance of Battery Minerals Processing
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THIS WEEK'S EPISODE OF "THE BIG 3" focused on the national security risks of America’s dependence on China for critical minerals processing, especially in the lead-acid battery supply chain.
CPA senior economists Mihir Torsekar and Andrew Rechenberg were joined by retired Major General Bill Crane and retired Rear Admiral Peter Brown to discuss CPA’s new report with the Responsible Battery Coalition on how the United States can reverse China’s dominance in minerals processing.
The conversation first explored why lead-acid batteries remain indispensable to the American economy and military readiness, powering everything from trucks and hospitals to telecom systems and defense infrastructure.
The second segment examined the strategic vulnerability created by China’s control over antimony processing, ports, shipping, and industrial inputs, with guests warning that America has offshored not just production, but surge capacity in the event of conflict.
The final segment turned to policy solutions, including Project Vault, tariffs, domestic stockpiling, maritime capacity, and the importance of extending the 45X tax credit to encourage onshore processing and manufacturing.
The message was clear: Economic security and national security are inseparable, and rebuilding America’s industrial base is essential not only for today’s competitiveness, but for future generations.
Alright, hello, welcome to the big three from the Coalition for Prosperous America, where each week we break down the three biggest stories should be US trade, industrial policy, and the American economy. I'm Mihir Twortzikar, and alongside me is my fellow senior economist and co-host uh Andrew Reschenberg. So let's get to it. Uh today we have two special guests, uh, and they are here to talk about uh the big three issues raised in a report that CPA recently released alongside the Responsible Battery Coalition. The report is called uh Wartime Footing and How the United States can reverse China's dominance of the battery of the uh battery minerals processing. Our guests are today are two distinguished public servants who have dedicated their careers to American national security. First is uh Major General Bill Crane, U.S. Army retired, serving at he formerly served as the commanding general of West Virginia, and has worked directly with Taiwanese forces on irregular warfare preparedness. He currently serves on the Responsible Battery Coalition's board. Uh and we're also joined by Rear Admiral Peter Brown, U.S. Coast Guard retired. He's the vice chair of the uh RBC's Critical Minerals Leadership Roundtable and brings decades of experience in maritime strategy and defense infrastructure. Gentlemen, we really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Uh, but before we get started with the show, I just wanted to see if there was anything you guys wanted to add about either your background or what you do with the uh Responsible Battery Coalition. Um you're welcome to speak on any of those issues.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so mayor, I'll go ahead and start. So uh, you know, uh it was great to link up with the Responsible Battery Coalition. You know, I've always been in the critical infrastructure space, particularly because of being the the commanding general of the National Guard. Um my my focus has always been what my governor needed to help the citizens of West Virginia, and so we always wanted to ensure that we did the right thing to ensure that our population's daily lives were as least impacted as possible to them. And uh so getting into the battery coalition and them their understanding of the critical minerals, the rare earth elements, uh really helps, you know, I can come behind them and go, yeah, I can really support this because I know what it takes to make sure our crucial infrastructure uh is maintained and to keep our the lives of our American citizens, in particular West Virginians, uh right where we need them to be. We don't want them to see a big change, uh just like we haven't seen since the the uh the Iran conflict has started. So uh I think that's a that's a great thing. Uh you know, the everyday citizen, yes, they know that we're we're over there, we're doing things, but daily life for them has not significantly changed other than the gas prices, some some you know some areas where the inflation stuff may have hit them a little bit. But overall, this has been uh a great uh uh opportunity to see what what we can do.
SPEAKER_03Great. Emerald Brown, is there anything you'd like to add?
SPEAKER_02Or yes, uh so thank thank you, Mahir, and thanks to uh CPA for uh for hosting, both for writing the report and for hosting this event. As you mentioned at the Responsible Battery Coalition and uh Crateful Minerals Roundtable, we're uh really looking at the national security implications of the supply chain cycle uh for batteries, particularly lead acid batteries. We'll talk a little bit more about why that battery technology is so important. But the one thing I wanted to add uh comes from uh my time in the Coast Guard. A lot of it was tactical, on the water, stopping bad guys kind of stuff. And then as I moved higher in the organization uh and within the Department of Homeland Security, looked very closely at Homeland Security. But then I had an amazing opportunity to work in the first Trump administration as a deputy assistant to the president for national security affairs, specifically as the president's Homeland Security Advisor. And in that vein, I got to uh meet and learn, uh meet people and learn about the interconnection between national security and our economy. And I'll point out that in this Trump administration, the second Trump administration in particular, the national security implications of our commercial, economic, and trade relationships around the world are elevated to the same level as the diplomatic and the military, in which military folks like me have been acquainted. So uh this connection now to uh commerce, economy, and trade uh opens a lot of people's eyes um to what's going on. And uh and uh I think Bill mentioned irregular warfare. And uh we are certainly in a stage of irregular warfare with an adversary who seeks to dominate us.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Well, I thought um, you know, for the first segment, I thought we would probably start by breaking down the three we'll start by breaking down the first, you know, the big three items from the report that we we talked about up front, starting with this this issue of China's midstream chokehold and why processing is the battleground when it comes to lead acid battery manufacturing. But before we do that, I I thought I wanted to turn it to you, gentlemen, to to explain to the the audience why you know lead acid batteries are so critical for not only for national security, but for the economy in general.
SPEAKER_01Pete, do you want to go ahead and take that one?
SPEAKER_02Well, I thought you were gonna do that, and I was gonna do maritime trade.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, I mean that the big thing, lead acid batteries are everywhere. It it it's in our agriculture, it's in our everyday cars. You know, that technology is really critical uh to keep the economy running. And the nice thing is we we generally have a really good stronghold on lead acid batteries. But again, if you let your guard down, uh you're you're gonna you're gonna miss that opportunity uh to keep that dominant position. And so we've got to continue to work hard towards ensuring that we uh stay dominant in that in that arena. You know, we've got to make sure that we can sustain the antimony that's required in the lead acid battery uh chemistry. And uh again, and if that goes away and we don't do the recycling piece, which is it's it's like a closed loop, nearly a closed loop that we have on lead acid battery. If we don't keep that dominance, uh then again, it'll be another industry that we could see go on to a uh an adversary. And so we we've got to keep that dominance.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's interesting because people often, when they hear about battery supply chain, they're they're often thinking about the lithium-ion batteries that tend to power electric vehicles or consumer electronics. Uh but the lead acid batteries are really the workhorse of the American economy, and so they they start every truck and car on the road, they're back up for power back up power for hospitals, data centers, telecom networks, military installations. Um and you know, that this is a $30 billion uh domestic industry with manufacturing and recycling uh operations across 38 states, uh generates roughly $3 billion in tax revenue, supports thousands of jobs. And uh General Crane mentioned the recycling rate. Yes, the United States has a 99% lead acid, uh lead recycling rate. So it's one of the most successful circular economies anywhere in manufacturing. So this isn't just a niche product, this is a really important uh you know, battery chemistry that underpins uh the infrastructure of this whole civilian economy. And so I guess to that point, we talk about you you know, you mentioned Antimony, uh General Crane, and why don't we talk a little bit about how you know why antimony is such an important point of discussion in this, in this, um, in this supply chain and and how it comes down to that. You know, we've talked about how successful the lead acid battery supply chain is in America, and yet Antimony, it all comes down to that. Why don't you talk a little bit about um you know why that's such a choke point in this discussion?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because so again, it's uh it's a processing issue. You know, we uh we don't have the processing capacity enough of it here in the United States for antimid. And it's not just for lead acid batteries, it's for our defense systems. And uh if if we don't continue to maintain, you know, I I've heard it said before, would we let China build our F-35s? I don't think we would. But if you start going backwards from a finished F-35 and all it takes to build the F-35, why would you allow somebody else to control any part of the of the building of the F-35? You know, so that's that's rare earth elements. That's that's critical minerals that are in those weapon systems, and so we've got to make sure we're bringing that processing back to the United States because it truly is a national security issue for us if we allow an adversary uh to control that processing.
SPEAKER_03And and you've had some firsthand experience witnessing what this looks like uh, you know, with PPE equipment shortages during COVID. Could you talk a little bit about how maybe the mineral processing dependency uh compares to that experience and what it might tell us about the timeline for standing up domestic capacity when under pressure?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm sure any of your viewers or listeners will remember the shortage of masks in our hospitals, the shortage of gowns, the shortage of gloves. And we saw that same thing here in West Virginia. We couldn't get those those supplies. And so we made the decision to purchase equipment that we could run and and you know manufacture our own masks and gloves and that kind of stuff. And uh but the the the other downside of that was it wasn't just the manufacturer of those, but it was the manufacturer of the machines that manufacture those, we're also coming from China. So, you know, we have got to bring back the ability for us to build our own machines so that we can ensure that we can always produce what we need for the American population, especially when it comes to uh the national security area or or even the safety and protection area. Uh not having that stuff, you know. I'm so we are so fortunate that we were able to go ahead and and buy the equipment to produce those. I know we save lives by doing that. And that's the way we've got to look at it is how are we making sure that we are keeping the American people as safe as possible? And you do that through strength, you do that through manufacturing, you do that through a strong economy. You don't have a strong national defense without a strong economy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is part of the reason why it was so much fun working with uh RBC as well, because uh CPA were very much aligned on those very issues. Admiral Brown, if you could talk a little bit about, you know, China's influence extends beyond just mineral processing into ports and shipping and logistics, uh infrastructure globally. So, how do these layers like of control interact and and how does that compound the midstream vulnerability that we've identified in this report?
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's that's a good that's a great question. And um the uh the the part that I find the the most interesting and compelling about this is that this is a problem that in a slightly different context, Alexander Hamilton foresaw at the founding of our country. And in Federalist 11 and 12, he talks about the need for the United States to become not a raw materials country, but a manufacturing and processing and commerce country. Because if we sold raw materials to our economic adversary, at the time, the powers of Europe, to allow them to manufacture and add value and then sell back to us at prices of their choosing that we were vulnerable both economically and from a security standpoint. And exactly those same points apply now in critical minerals and in maritime commerce. And uh so we'll we'll stick for the moment with the critical minerals part of it. We have a scenario where the United States, Canada, and other French or nearby countries have substantial ores and uh raw materials for uh critical minerals of all kinds. Um, but the uh, as the Trump administration, particularly Secretary Rubio points out in the National Security Strategy and some Department of State documents, in their terms, the global elites, including Americans, made misguided bets on the benefits of global free trade and hollowed out our industry at home and placed vulnerability in the hands of our adversary for them to employ at the time of their choosing. And on antimony specifically, uh the government of China turned off the flow for a relatively short period of time, but um spiked global prices and tanked global production at the same time. And so, in addition to the processing facilities having been economically captured by China, either directly in mainland China or countries now friendlier to them than they are to us, uh China controls a lot of global transportation, shipping, and shipbuilding, as well as port facilities in a number of countries, including most recently in Panama and Peru and other places, so that when if raw material has to move from the United States or Canada or Jamaica or Guyana or Bolivia to some other place, specifically in Asia, and then come back in the form of uh manufactured products, China holds um kind of veto power over those transactions and transportation at the port and shipping company levels in addition to the processing facilities. So it really, there are a number of points of vulnerability that we have through economic negligence placed in the hands of our adversary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think, you know, when we're talking about the ports issue, you know, when it comes to China, they they always cloak their civilian uh, you know, the the the civilian applications are always, you know, there's a confusion between civilian and military, you know, the conflation of the two items, I guess you could say, the military-civil fusion, um, that makes any, you know, anything that they do kind of you know cast suspicion on what their real intentions are. You mentioned the the port in Peru, the Chonke port in Peru that they just, I think, announced in November, if I'm not mistaken, or October of last year, perhaps. Right. And that you know, megaport.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then a court in Peru has said that the government of Peru has no ability to regulate and monitor what's going on inside the uh the captive Chinese corporation that's running that port. So what I tell folks is when it comes to uh when it comes to the government of China or Chinese affiliated companies, when they say investment, you need to hear infiltration. When they say employment, we need to hear espionage. And when they say company or commerce, we need to hear communism because that's what they're exporting to the Western Hemisphere when we interact with them as if they were uh global peers.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a megaport in the Western hemisphere uh that has potentially the you know opportunity to like serve military purposes for China, and at the same time extracting natural resources from Latin America where they have a wellspring of critical minerals is obviously something we should be keeping an eye on. And I think that this really transitions well into the second segment of our of our discussion today, which is talking about like the national security implication, you know, ready readiness surge capacity and the uh defense logistics agency, the DLA um gap. Um so you know, we talked about you know some of the critical minerals that are implicated in battery production. For antimity, uh Antimony, the DLA ceiling that we have, we are we are well short of being able, I mean, we are not anywhere near self-sufficient. In fact, I don't think we have any row refining or mining capabilities on that front. Um so you know we and we I think you mentioned uh I think we heard a little bit earlier about how China's already sort of weaponized their dominance um of these supply chains and you know they kind of cut us off and and had a direct impact on antimony prices and the availability of that critical mineral. Can we talk a little bit about uh you know, at Admiral Brown, maybe you can talk a little bit from a from a naval standpoint and the you know Pacific contingency planning, how important is the domestic refining capacity to sustaining operations beyond the initial phase of conflict?
SPEAKER_02Well, the uh the great lesson here is World War II. Because from a capability standpoint, Germany in particular was as capable in terms of technology and manufacture as the United States, and Japan very nearly so. But where the United States had the advantage was in sheer capacity. We could just outproduce numerically in a large scale the things that were needed to prosecute the war. And that's that's how uh Germany and Japan were defeated in World War II. Right now, as we're seeing certainly in uh the conflict in Iran, the U.S. has a technical technically superior edge over the forces that we're currently combating. Uh with communist China, that edge would be much smaller in large part due to their uh industrial espionage, but also that technological superiority in the current environment is something of a veneer because underneath it is very limited capacity, and some of the capacity is actually again controlled by our adversary. And so the ability to regenerate and do so quickly, stockpiles of critical munitions and even mundane things like uh like starter batteries for vessels, vehicles, and for um uninterrupted power supplies and other things that can uh keep our weapon systems and uh and vehicles and aircraft um doing what they need to do. Uh those the capability to regenerate capacity has been um, again, with these misguided bets on global free trade offshore. I often tell folks that uh one of the things that the Trump administration did a very good job with was highlighting the very visible migration of people from low wage, low security, and low regulation environments to higher wages and higher security. At the same time, over the past couple decades, capital and manufacturing capacity migrated in the opposite direction from uh high regulation, high wage, and high tax, frankly, Western democracies of North America and Western Europe toward Asia and Africa. And in doing so, we've lost the ability to control the regeneration of our military capacity. That's where the great vulnerability is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and and I'm thinking too about um, you know, when we talk about vulnerability, General Um General Crane, if you could talk a little bit about, you know, one of the things we talk about in the report is this this gray zone. But Beijing's really operating in this gray zone and and influencing, you know, kind of coercing through that through that area, like gray zone. Can you talk a little bit about how how that works, what that is uh in this in this context?
SPEAKER_01Yes, so what I would say, I want to, you know, I I'll start off going back to something Admiral Brown talked talked about. So uh even at our ports, the cranes that are that are at the ports that are offloading supplies, they came from China. And in those were communication devices. And so as as he talks about, everything they send here is is a sensor, it's it's a way for them to get information and and gain uh an edge of knowing what it is we're trying to we're trying to do. And so, you know, we we continue to have that issue that we allow their stuff to come here, we allow them to you know use the World Trade Organization and other other venues to send stuff here, and and we have got to get back to where like we've been talking about. We have to manufacture here because if if the Chinese cross the Taiwan Strait tomorrow, there the way of life will change, I promise you. And we have got to make sure that we have the manufacturing capacity and capability in the United States to ramp up production of weapon systems because we it it will be a tremendous fight if we get into it. And uh so yeah, we we we absolutely need to make sure that we're we're paying close attention, we're bringing back, I mean, I I see it in southern West Virginia. Big, you know, we used to dig the coal that that that we burned to make the steel that made the buildings that made the weapons. I mean, we used to do that. And we've got to get back to doing the same thing now with with these critical minerals and rare earths because they're the lifeblood of of a uh of our new of our society today. It's a digital society. They're the that is the backbone of of the digital society. And so we have got to make sure that we have the ability to to continue to uh to make and manufacture products here in the United States for that, and you know, and also. Think about the power demands on the highly technological systems that we now use in the military. The demands for power are tremendous. So we've got to be able, as we've been talking about, to have the battery systems, the generation systems to ensure that these highly advanced weapons can work and that this all those sensors that we're trying to put in our aircraft and uh in our ships and in our uh our ground with weapon systems all can communicate because you have to have a clear picture of the entire battlefield. You can't have bits and pieces of the picture. You need to have the for the most senior leaders to make decisions, you've got to have the clear picture of the entire battlefield. So you don't you don't end up going someplace that that they want you to go. You're you're gonna go where you need to go to defeat them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think uh, you know, it's interesting. It's so much of this is gonna take a paradigm shift in the on behalf of policymakers in the U.S. where we're constantly elevating like consumer welfare above all other considerations. So under that paradigm and that approach, it was basically like, okay, well, as long as the consumer is paying the cheapest amount at the register, that's all that matters. But we're seeing, and you all gentle you both gentlemen have pointed out in our research, me and Andrew, the research that we do at CPA points to the fact that there's these these these things that we're buying are anything but cheap because they come at the cost of our manufacturing sector, of our national, you know, you know, national security, our now uh new military preparedness and all of these things. We're starting to see what that that bill is coming due. Uh and this is such a great point to to talking about how we begin to reclaim those supply chains that we've simply just relinquished and squandered over to China. And I think that that gives us an opportunity to talk about, you know, this the final segment of this show, like what is the administration doing and how are they getting it right in this space? And this is where I think it would be a good opportunity to talk about um an initiative recently that was announced, Project Vault. You know, it's interesting when we spoke, gentlemen, when we joined uh forces at the uh at the summit at CPA last month, we were talking about um how the oil embargo, I think it was 1972 or 73 around that time, occasioned this build-out of the strategic petroleum reserve and well, how Project Vault kind of came into that, comes, comes, you know, is kind of set against the backdrop of a similar phenomenon happening. You fast forward a month later, here we are with almost the exact same situation happening with all of this disruption in the Middle East and the war happening and and the implications for oil and energy markets and the need for this kind of stockpile to happen. Let's talk a little bit about Project Vault. Um so this is one of the most significant uh, I think, developments in this space that come out for some time. The administration put $10 billion um from the export import bank behind it, plus two million or two billion dollars in in private capital. Um Clarios is uh the largest lead acid battery manufacturer in the U.S. and uh also an RBC member. They're a signatory of this policy. Why don't you gentlemen talk about why this is such an important initiative?
SPEAKER_01Well, from the Project Vault thing, the thing that I think is interesting that that the Trump administration, second Trump administration is doing is they're uh it it it's a it's a work between the corporate side and the government side. And so, like with Project Vault, you've got the investment, you've got the buy-in of the companies, and they're helping to fund uh an a place for them to have these materials available in times of increased uh price or per or increased demand. And you've seen the government invest in like Mountain Pass, where they're putting money in to ensure that that they can run and there's a floor set on the price. Those are those are big deals for those companies because you can't build a company's not gonna go into something if they think they're gonna lose money. And China has shown every every time uh we try to start our manufacturing back that they're gonna they're gonna dump it on the market, lower the price to make it to where they can't start doing that processing. So allowing there to be a floor set on the price for these uh allows them to understand they could make a profit off of it. And I think we're gonna have to see a lot more of that. I think the tariff uh system that that has been put in place, I think they've got to continue doing some of that, those things. Because as you said, I mean, and I and I've seen it, I've seen it all over the country where you go into communities that used to be thriving communities, and and if you can't replace a car manufacturer with a Walmart, nothing against Walmart, but again, they're not manufacturing anything, they're selling products, and you can't replace that manufacturing job with that service job and think that uh they're gonna still have the same standard of living. And we we've got to make sure that we're taking care of the American people. It's the America first mentality, but not only America. It's just America first. We have to take care of our citizens. That's why our elected officials are there, that's why the service members are there. You have it's we the people that we defend in our Constitution. And we got to continue to remember we the people is the American that's the American citizen that we're talking about and taking an oath to. Not anybody else. It's we the people of the United States.
SPEAKER_02And and Mahir, I would add to that uh that excellent commentary by General Crane, that um yeah, it and the Constitution is to ensure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. So there's a generational piece to this as well. Um, the the drive to lower consumer prices is a somewhat selfish or at least self-centered generationally speaking uh goal. And instead, a sustainable economy that goes out into the future is what should be our goal. And the uh the tariff policies and the uh and Project Vault uh strategic petroleum reserve and uh the maritime action plan for shipbuilding, they all come from a place of wanting sustainable capabilities that will support not just the current generation of Americans, but future generations as well. Project Vault, in addition to the price floor that uh General Crane discussed, also has in it some uh minimum off-take uh requirements because the uh again, the the manufacturers uh need to know that there will be a uh a certain amount that will be uh that will be sold at that price floor. And that's what will generate capacity in the midpoints of the industry and as well in the transportation sector, because again, the United States right now does not control maritime transportation of goods outside of the United States. Within the United States, we have some protections, but when it comes to uh to global uh shipbuilding and shipping, the United States is down to about a 1% or less player. And uh so um when we we do ship overseas, uh we are placing our our good, not only our goods, but our national security at risk. And the one other thing I'd say here is that um there's a lot of talk in diplomatic circles about the rules-based international order and in trade circles about global free trade. Both of those only work when all the players are literally playing from the same set of rules. But as we discussed, when China does not have China, the Congress government of China and the companies it controls do not have to generate short-term profits as U.S. companies do, they have a lifetime advantage in terms of the ability to suffer uh low or lost profits uh in return for the long-term gain of uh of grabbing uh market share. And so that's uh that's an imbalance and asymmetry in uh global trade that cannot be remedied just by a set of rules. I say frequently that the rules-based international order is the Maginot line of the 21st century. It's a defensive system that only works if everybody agrees to it. China clearly does not agree to either the rules-based international order or the global free trade system, as the West has understood it. And the current administration is now um altering the rules set um to make sure that America's interests in the American people are protected.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think if for anyone who wants to know about the rules-based trading order, look no further than China's $1.3 or $1.2 trillion trade surplus, which would never happen under a free trading system because currency would adjust in such a way that it would it would kind of prevent such a thing from even happening. Uh yet we still see China's currency continue to be undervalued and they still have a hidden subsidy on their exports that they're able to just kind of dump their products onto the rest of the world. So um, you know, I I think one other point I want to make is, you know, one of the things we talk about in the report as far as what the administration or any administration could do is is the uh 45x of the inflation uh reduction act as a as a critical lever, um, which pays roughly 10% of the production cost for critical minerals processed domestically. And the the credit phases out starting in I think 2030. And so we talk about why Congress needs to extend that. Um and and maybe we can talk a little bit about why that's so important um it to kind of extend that incentive structure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I think the the what that allows again is it it gives them the the ability to understand what prices are going to be, what what you know, they're they're not gonna lose money uh on investments, big investments to bring processing and manufacturing back to the United States. So for advanced manufacturing, you know, 45X is a is a critical tool to help bring back manufacturing onshore the manufacturing. You know, you you see a tremendous amount of investment being done uh back in the United States, and I think it's because of the the number of the policies that the current administration has put in place through the tariff system, uh, through looking uh at you know looking at those uh those countries and seeing are are they following the rules and when they're not, we impose those tariffs, which I think is absolutely what we need to be doing. And so getting the the 45x in place and allowing it to help bring back the manufacturing only helps to boost our economy. It gives the jobs to the people in the United States. We get back to taking care of we the people, and not just a bottom line. And so I I think that is uh again, I think it has to be extended. Uh we've got to continue to do what we can, just like China does right now. They give them zero interest loans or or even they'll pay them to to build more man more capacity, whether they need it or not. You know, so we've got to be doing uh policies that give those incentives to bring the manufacturing back here. Otherwise, we're just gonna continue to get more of the same.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that they've they've done such a good job. Well, I shouldn't even say good because it almost it makes it seem like I'm praising them, but like they their strategy has been so uh so successful at being able to benefit from not having to worry about profit, right? So then they're able to just simply flood markets and lower the price to such a point that it it's it's it's unpalatable to do any investment in that sector, in the mining sector, which takes years of capital investment and time to like lay those roots and those foundations. So by the end, by the by the time you know 10 years happens and they look around and they're the only players in town, you know, for for refining, for example, um, you know, that's that's exactly the playbook happening. And so that's why I think we need these policies in place.
SPEAKER_01It's it and like you said, I mean, China goes into these countries knowing they're going to make an unfair deal, knowing they're going to put that country in a debt burden. And so uh, you know, those countries, I sure hope they're all really reading those contracts closely. I'm glad to see the the State Department has uh routinely started to help them understand what it is that they're signing. Uh, because I think China's been pretty predatory in going into those countries so they can get what they need, and they're not worried about anything else except themselves, I promise you.
SPEAKER_03Well, so I think unless unless there's anything else you gentlemen wanted to add about any of those three segments, I wanted to maybe start to to to bring the conversation to a close, but I wanted to ask you know, either of you if you could talk, if if you could, you know, if you had a policymaker, an influential policymaker in front of you right now, what is one big kind of takeaway from the report or even really anything in general that you would like to impress upon them that's that you find is just so critical that they have to know? Well, for me, Admiral Brown.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Bill. I would say that the irregular warfare has begun. Just like in the Iran situation that we're going through now, the warfare there began 47 years ago. We only recognized it essentially within the past couple of weeks. Uh, but they were undermining purposefully the the lives, the safety, the security of the United States, both military, militarily and economically, uh, through both direct action and through proxy militias. China is doing the exact same thing, a slightly different set of tactics. They are at economic war with the United States, what they declared several decades ago. They're at chemical war with the United States in terms of fentanyl manufacture, killing hundreds of thousands of Americans and siphoning billions of dollars out of our economy. And they're in this trade war with the United States where they are seeking to capture, but not quite kill, I believe, uh, U.S. economic dominance. They are, uh, in my opinion, treating us as a host where they are the person. They don't want to kill us off. They want to feed off of us and weaken us to the point that we can't fight back or or disentangle ourselves uh from that relationship. And the one other thing that I wanted to add here, this is specifically about the responsible battery coalition and the team of companies and that uh 99 plus percent recycling rate. From an environmental standpoint, U.S. uh manufacturing and processing is absolutely superior from a global environmental standpoint to what China does or what its companies do in uh in countries that don't have the same environmental and labor protections that we have. And uh and then the other part is that um this uh this industry is particularly innovative, uh the responsible battery coalition members in turning what had been a waste stream into a critical input. That recycling rate took what had been a waste stream and now very carefully and cleanly controls it to make it an input in this uh in this uh circular uh manufacturing and uh and remanufacturing part of the industry. So uh it's a it's a really innovative uh um company, more company set uh business line that uh I think our government needs to support. And we're talking about 45X. Um the extension is so important because this is not a one administration solution uh to the problem. This is going to be a generational uh solution to this problem to ensure that America is safe, prosperous, and secure for generations to come.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think Emma Braille made some great points there. And just to follow up with that one one piece of that, you know, when you move manufacturing from the United States and you move it to say India, China, uh, if you're worried about global warming and you think you know that that's that's a big issue, well you're you're pushing manufacturing to a place that burns a mu a much less clean coal, a much you know, they're manuf they're producing uh energy using way dirtier technology than what we do. And so again, if you're worried about the the uh global warming, you're worried about our what the world is looks like, you know, keeping that here, keeping the clean energy that's going into the manufacturing is really, really important. You know, and and going back to the CPA and the and the uh the responsible battery coalition, when we went to Florida and had held the conference, you know, the thing that I took away from that, and I cannot ever get it out of my head, there's there's two companies that I remember uh a company and and an association, and that was the revereware, number one, you know the oldest company in in the United States. Imagine if we lost that copper manufacturer, it it would just be a travesty to me because then I mean it was a found one of the founding folks of this country. And then the second one that I thought I took to heart was the cabinet manufacturers. I mean, you're talking about little tiny businesses around this country manufacturing cabinetry, and if you allow China to dump uh their cab their cheap stuff into this country, you're putting all those people out of work and you're forcing them to have to go and migrate someplace else so they can have a job and take care of their families. And so uh, you know, I think the key takeaway to me is we've got to put the wall up or make the wall a little higher. So they got to climb a little higher to get over it. And that makes sure that we can keep our folks working, our folks safe, and continue to have the generational change that's gonna be required to make sure that my grandkids and my my grandkids' grandkids have the lifestyle that I've been accustomed to and that the American population has grown accustomed to.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Um, well, you know, this is this has been a fantastic, uh, fantastic show. I gotta be honest, I was really looking forward to to catching up with you guys again after um, you know, last month we had such a great uh experience on the panel and uh heard great things about uh you know the conversation that we had. Uh I think it really resonated with uh the audience, and hopefully uh folks who are listening have the same experience and and get a chance to read the report, put a lot of work into it, and we're really proud of it. Um so uh you know, I I don't have a whole lot more to add here, I guess. I think I think we can probably wrap up here. Um Andrew, I apologize that I know I took up a lot of uh talking time, but uh, you know, I we've referenced a lot of research that you've been doing as well. So if there's any concluding thoughts you had, I want to turn it over to you real quick before we wrap up for the show.
SPEAKER_00No, I think that it's just been uh it's been a great report, and I think it does a really good job of just analyzing and separating out all the different aspects of the supply chain and separating out how the mining side is very different than the processing side, and you really need a whole of supply chain approach to all of this. And I think it does a good job of really outlining all the steps needed for for all of those different measures to make sure we're building things here at home and how that applies to national security and just being ready in case of any conflict that comes around.
SPEAKER_03Perfect. All right, well, gentlemen, I think we can stop there for this week. Uh thank you both again for for joining us. Um to you, the uh the viewer, the listener at home, we want to thank you for for joining in uh to this special podcast, uh this special episode, I should say, of the big three at CPA TV. Uh till next week, take care.