Queer For Cities

Imagining Trans Futures & Building Queer Inclusive Cities

• MG Xiong • Season 1 • Episode 2

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In this episode of Queer for Cities, host Joshua Croke discusses the intersection of identity and place, with a focus on the contributions of queer and trans people in designing inclusive and equitable communities. The episode features conversations with activist and community organizer, MG Xiong, who shares their experience as a Hmong Transmasculine and non-binary individual working in transgender advocacy and community building. The discussion touches on navigating challenging conversations, envisioning inclusive futures, and combating barriers to equitable living. The episode also highlights the importance of accountability, love, and support within the queer and trans communities to foster a more inclusive, joyful, and normative societal view of queerness. Additionally, there's an exploration of the challenges in philanthropy and resource distribution that impact transformational work for queer and trans rights.


00:00 Welcome to Queer for Cities: Making Queer a Joyful Norm

00:42 Spotlight on MG Xiong: A Journey of Identity and Advocacy

03:55 First Event: A Gathering for Trans and Non-Binary Folks

06:28 Featuring Derek Austin: Poetry and the Power of Words

08:48 Love Your Labels: Empowering Queer and Trans Youth

10:22 Envisioning a Liberated Future: Housing and Community Building

17:00 Challenging the Philanthropic Industrial Complex

34:18 MG's Podcast Preview: True Story, Trans Realities

43:27 Building Inclusive Communities: Accountability and Joy

49:35 Closing Thoughts and Community Engagement


You can listen to Queer For Cities loud and queer wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM, Worcester’s only NPR affiliate station. Tune in on Wednesdays at 6 PM and Sundays at 11 PM and find us at QueerForCities.com. Queer For Cities is created and hosted by Joshua Croke. Our Assistant Producer is Jack Tripp. Our Audio Engineer & Music Producer is Giuliano D’Orazio.

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Nipmuc Nation

MG Xiong / Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition

The Trans Community of New England

Derrick Austin

Love Your Labels

Stonewall Foundation

The Faggots & Their Friends Between Revolutions

adrienne maree brown

Taj Smith  / Rooted Respite

Queer For Cities is about life at the intersections and designing equity-centered, liberated communities where LGBTQ+ folx thrive. Follow us @QueerForCities and QueerForCities.com. Hosted by Joshua Croke. #QueerForCities

Joshua Croke:

Hello, hello, hello folks coming in loud and queer with Queer for Cities. I'm your host Joshua Prok, and I'm out to make queer a joyful norm. Our show is about the design of cities and communities at the intersection of identity and place, centering the role queer and trans folks play in this work. We're bringing together voices from across the spectrum, from queer artists and agitators to architects, urban planners, and activists to share their stories, challenges, and triumphs in creating inclusive. Spaces and Equitable Cities. Our thesis for this show is that when we build more queer inclusive cities, we build better cities for everyone. In part one of this kickoff episode, which got long so I split it into two, we heard from Taj Smith about navigating challenging conversations and imagining the future of religions that embrace and affirm queer and trans folks. You also briefly heard from MG Xiong.

MG Xiong:

I'm MG Chong. I use they them their as pronouns, and I am Hmong Transmasculine and non-binary. I'm originally from Anchorage, Alaska, actually, and I now live in Medford with my sweet baby cat Meatball.

Joshua Croke:

MG Chong is the director of programs for the Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition and has organized community-oriented initiatives focused on trans and queer rights, combating gun violence in underserved neighborhoods, and promoting anti-racist education. MG has served youth and adults alike, building community between generations, cultures, and identities. They are a recent graduate from UMass Boston and spent their undergraduate education researching best practices for fostering belonging for gender non conforming individuals in spaces of learning.

MG Xiong:

A lot of my initial work and just kind of existence in Anchorage gave way to the foundation of who I am, and even though I didn't step into my transness or my queerness until moving to Boston, I feel like in my time in in Anchorage, there was this togetherness that I. felt much more strongly there being with people where we're all one degree removed from another and in some way shape or form really shaped me into how community oriented I am now and how important identity is to me in all different types of facets and Anchorage being one of the most Diversities in the US as a whole and the high school that I went to being the second most diverse in the nation also really just gave way to so much genuine thought about identity that I hadn't found when I had moved here that didn't exist.

Joshua Croke:

I asked MG if they found similarities between Anchorage and Boston, and they said that a lot of the similarities were due to going to UMass Boston, which is the third most diverse university in the nation, which connected to their experiences and environments when MG was in school in Alaska. I asked MG about becoming committed to their work in community, and how that is interconnected to their own identity.

MG Xiong:

I've now long been involved in transgender advocacy and community building. That started off with work that I was doing with gun violence in Anchorage. This was during the height of the March for Our Lives movement as well. That really engendered my work in community. And it wasn't until I came into my transness when I was about like 19 or so, that it just made perfect sense for, it felt like everything that I was doing had culminated into this moment of stepping into my transness. It gave me so much energy at the time and I just felt so rejuvenated by the people that I was meeting, the conversations that I was having, and I will say now that that novelty is wearing off as the work becomes increasingly difficult.

Joshua Croke:

MG was also a speaker at first event on a powerful panel titled by us for us surviving and supporting each other as trans non binary and gender non conforming people working in TGNC spaces. So I was a first event first timer. It was my first time participating in the conference and I don't think I've ever ever been in a space where the majority of people were trans and non binary folks, and the fact that that event is about us and our experiences and building communities was something really special. Although I spent most of my time coordinating and interviewing some of the awesome guests that were featuring this season like Taj and MG, um, I do hope to go back and experience more of the workshops and events in the future. First Event also provides space for folks to connect and organize around challenges facing queer and trans folks across communities, from different cities and towns. Uh, there were people that I met who had come up from Florida and came to First Event specifically because of the anti trans legislation that they are facing in their communities. and how they are looking at how to best advocate for their kids. Some folks told me they were even considering moving to Massachusetts because of how toxic the environments have become in some states across the nation. Many of the issues that we face as queer and trans folks and the advocacy work that we do in communities is similar here in Massachusetts, across New England, across the country, but oftentimes we're disconnected from the advocacy efforts of others. Other folks, because we're often in the day to day weeds and on the ground work that we're doing in our own community. So something that I'm thinking about a lot, especially with the advent of this show is how we're networked, how we're mobilizing together, both at local state, regional national scale is part of the work in and of itself. And that can be really difficult to spend time doing. And like I said, when we're in our on the ground day to day, Which can already overextend us. So I'm hoping that Queer for Cities can help to build and expand networks here in New England and beyond. And if you're looking to get more involved in network building and community connectivity, please reach out to us. You can email me directly at josh at queerforcities. com. We're going to get back to MG in a few minutes, but something I'm really excited about with Queer for Cities is featuring artists and creatives, particularly poets, spoken word artists, and writers for segments during our episodes. This week's featured poet is Derek Austin. Derek is a writer, teacher, editor, and the author of Tenderness, winner of the 2020 Isabella Gardner Poetry Award, and Trouble the Water, selected by Mary Sivitz for the A. Poulin, Jr. Poetry Prize. Black Sand, his first chapbook, was published by Foundlings Press in 2022. His debut collection was honored as a finalist for the Kate Tufts Discovery Award, Tom Gunn Award for Gay Poetry, Lambda Literary Award for Gay Poetry, and the Norma Faber First Book Award. Tenderness was a finalist for a Golden Poppy Award, Lambda Literary Award for Gay Poetry, and a Northern California Book Award. Philip B. William, author of Mutiny, an NPR, says, Austin is a lyrical architect, rendering with urgency and plainspokenness what is arguably the most challenging kind of loneliness that experienced amidst others. His second collection, Tenderness, channels the unexpected pain that one only knows after having been touched. He goes on to say, This is a stunning collection for these challenging times when intimacy has escaped us, but will eventually return. Let this book be your primer. Here's Derek Austin reading Days of 2014 from his most recent collection, Tenderness.

Derrick Austin:

Days of 2014, he had told me to circle the lake, smell of pepper and pine resin. Black people died or went missing that summer. Every day it seemed, and here was someone who wanted to find me. We drank red wine, heavy and bitter. Sunlight moved across the lake with the hours. Turns mixed their shadows and bodies in the water. When he laughed, little foam gathered on his incisors. He helped me into the wild grass and slash pines when I couldn't walk. There is a roof, One man's body makes over another. Pine needles and sharp grains. This is what I remember. This is how I escaped the world. A little foam.

Joshua Croke:

Love Your Labels is a non profit that supports queer and trans youth through art, fashion, and design based programs that explore gender, identity, and expression, and works to connect youth to creative opportunities that align with their passions that lead to positive life outcomes and fulfilling careers. Love Your Labels also works with families and communities to create inclusive and loving spaces everywhere through programs like Drag Story Time and Queer AF, an art and fashion show celebrating the unique beauty of every person. Queer AF returns to Mechanics Hall in Worcester on Friday, September 6th, and you can learn more at loveyourlabels. com. As someone working with trans folks across the state, many of whom have experienced violence, houselessness, and mental health struggles that MG works to support, MG opened up about the compartmentalization that is sometimes needed to continue doing this work in support of people in struggle, and quote, the skill in which I witness trans suffering. They went on to acknowledge the trauma that can come from this as well. So in our conversation, I asked MG about how we build this liberated world we want to experience ourselves. I've always felt

MG Xiong:

like where there is no hope or vision of the future, it is incumbent upon us to invent it, and to invent that future. And so The suffering that I see, it never gets any easier, but it continues to fuel that fire that I have to continually invent new trans futures for us. So I think the physical landscape of that is this modge podge of communal living that looks like pedestrian dignity, and it looks like not just affordable housing, but quite frankly, free housing, and these community centers that are intergenerational. I was at a, I don't know, this workshop thing back in December with a bunch of other LGBTQ leaders here in Boston, and one of the things we were doing was envisioning any possibility of trans futures. And we all came up with these brilliant ideas of intergenerational, intercultural spaces that center joy, that center health and wellness, And really what we came to the conclusion of is that we cannot be well in an unwell world. And so pushing towards that vision in any way that we can, both in the physical landscape and our day to day being.

Joshua Croke:

This is so resonant with a lot of the work that I do and advocacy around. The ability to exist and live in the spaces that make us feel welcome, comfortable, affirmed. They could be the places that we grew up. They could be the places that we have found as queer folks that are loving and affirming where we have built a community. But we, have such a challenged system that continues to inflate the cost of living in spaces that folks occupy, especially cities, especially here in New England, Massachusetts is the most expensive state to live in, in the country. And we are seeing folks moving out. of Massachusetts because of a lack of affordable and not even affordable in the term, like the actual like definition of affordable housing, but just like affordable for people across many different income levels. And so When MG is talking about visions of the future that include things like communal living and free housing I want to point out and this is something that we're going to talk about in later episodes with one interview that comes to mind is with Aaron Greiner from Culture House who is an urban planner, but really talking about how zoning We're going to talk about zoning to, uh, how zoning prevents a diverse approach to building housing that caters to the diversity of people within communities and the diverse ways in which people want to live and exist. I could. I would love to live in a place that is, maybe it's a decently sized property where there are apartment style housing units that are owned by its residents and there are shared spaces on those grounds that, uh, would benefit everybody. Maybe living room slash gathering space. art studio music space, we see projects, uh, like artists live workspace that are popping up that are starting to model some of that vision. And this is something that I want to see made more accessible to people and, uh, also connect people into wealth building opportunities by being able to purchase land outside of the very. like traditional and exclusive ways in which folks are able to step into home ownership now and presently. I can tell you living in Worcester we just got ranked the third most expensive place to live in New England, I think was the stat. And I can tell you as a renter that purchasing a home given my current conditions and resources is not feasible nor possible and I could maybe look at Purchasing a home outside of the city and then it goes into perpetuating this this Cycle of oh now I have to go and infringe on someone else's Community because I can't afford to stay in my own and so we're gonna dive deeper into that But I want to also uplift that dignified quality housing can be built And can be accessible across income levels. We do not. We need to hold developers and folks that are in these spaces more accountable to not looking at what is the highest possible return on their investment. But what is also creating dignified quality space for people? We'll get more into that as well. And there's also an abundance versus a deficit mindset here. And a lot of change. Uh, work that I'm involved in, we have to talk intentionally about shifting from the mindset that we are so socialized to think of, which is there is not enough to go around. How could you even possibly imagine giving someone housing? That's just doesn't make sense. Where's the money going to come from? To a mindset of abundance saying. That we know that there are resources that are available that can solve this. We're not prioritizing things that are truly uplifting everyone in community. And that does have a negative impact and repercussion on everybody, not just folks that are living under a certain income threshold. On Deficit, there is the reality that, right now, accessing the wealth of resources that are rich in this world is extremely difficult, and that queer and trans folks and organizations serving us have to fight for pennies.

MG Xiong:

Our mission is to serve all trans people in Massachusetts. We estimate there to be around 55, 000 trans folks in the state, and there's three of us. You know, not, not citizenly for people out here doing all of the work, but at our org. And. We frequently say that our jobs shouldn't have to exist, and I think this is especially true for my colleague who's the director of development. Her entire job is getting money from people with much more access to wealth and privilege.

Joshua Croke:

And when I said pennies earlier, I actually mean pennies. Research out of the Stonewall Foundation found that for every hundred dollars awarded by U. S. foundations in 2021, only 28 cents specifically supported LGBTQ communities and issues, with just four cents being dedicated to trans communities. MG and I talk more about the philanthropic industrial complex in a minute, but I asked MG about what's inspired them as they engage in this work. What drives them? The

MG Xiong:

Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions by Larry Mitchell is a poetic memoir about the Lavender Hill commune in in upstate New York in the 70s and I see so much of that in my my envisioning for trans futures because it's discussing how we all have a role to play in trans thriving. And that role isn't necessarily philanthropist or funder or, you know, community program director. It's really just offering our best to others, offering what we have and sharing that. And I remember the first time that I was reading this book, there was this point where it was saying that queer thriving is when we all have enough. And at first I pushed back and I said, Well, why is it just enough? Why is it the bare minimum? Why is it not more than that? Why is it not abundance? But then I sat with that for for a while and and why I felt like there needed to be more than just enough. And the more I sat with it, the more I realized that Having what we need is enough.

Joshua Croke:

This framing is really beautiful. Enough, for me, is a word that's been rooted in deficit. It's like, okay, I can actually survive if I have food to eat and a roof over my head. But that's constructed. Enough can be abundance. Enough should mean it's including all the things that make us feel seen, loved, valued, and experience joy. To jump back on my philanthropic industrial complex soapbox, there is a history of how philanthropy was constructed as a mechanism for corporations to receive tax breaks and funnel money into only the issues that they care about. This is why trans folks gets four cents out of every hundred dollars in philanthropic giving. So, the people who hold wealth continue to hold and maintain that wealth as well as in large part control the way in which their quote unquote charitable resources are given. And there are a lot of people Foundations, and especially folks that are working within foundations that are working to change their processes, that are giving more to BIPOC and queer and trans organizations. And there often continue to be hurdles and barriers that prevent us from doing the deep systemic work that we need for transformative change.

MG Xiong:

We're also seeing, I feel like, these one time funding opportunities Which you know i'm not going to to push away But having multi year grant funding allows organizations to grow much more more robustly and stably because we can work towards that longevity. We can hire a staff person, not worry how we're going to pay for them the next year. And so having more long term rather than these, these one offs, you know, funding opportunities has been much more helpful I've seen. And also there's so many stipulations that come with so many, many funding opportunities. You have to do it between these months. You have to. Um, and we're going to report on just these metrics and I think that that's for me feels like a mistrust between the funders and our organizations. We actually know how to do this work best. We know how to effectively run this program that is meaningful that is impactful for our community. And yet our funders say, in order to do it right we need this this and this it's very stringent. And we have to follow these specific guidelines just to spend this money and. Then we're left having to shift our, our, our program models, shift our services in order to fit very niche requirements that we're given. And so, that is, at the foundation of that is this mistrust that these funders don't think that we know how to spend the money in the ways that we know is best for our community and for ourselves. We're willing to put up with all of this difficulty in service of our mission. Because I love hanging out, supporting, being with trans people, and so I then in turn put up with more of this disgusting system. Just because it allows me to have that joy in my life in this aspect. And similar to other non profits, we do it because we love the kids, or we love this, and in service of our mission, it allows people to think that that's enough, and that's compensation enough, and that we're doing it out of the goodness of our hearts, but the goodness of my heart doesn't get my rent paid.

Joshua Croke:

I was like trying not to like snap and clap when MG got real like this in our interview because it's not Surprising to me why foundations rarely allow funding to be used for quote unquote operations, which is Always what it is is the line item of salaries and things like that. People are what drive organizations and we need to invest in people. And there is a history of saying, Oh, you work in nonprofits. I expect you to not make money. And that creates not only a very visible statement around how we value people doing work that's literally life saving and transformational, but it is saying that we're not going to resource these in ways that make doing this work attractive. And so if you want to actually, you know, find wealth and, you know, have more autonomy over your life, have more ability to travel, move. purchase a home, et cetera, then you definitely should instead fit into the system that we've constructed in this quote unquote for profit realm than this quote unquote non profit realm because the, the difference there is that, Oh, that you, you just do that because you You like to do it instead of saying, no, the people that are doing this work are holding the system accountable for failing our communities time and time again. I know a good handful of folks who if a foundation approached us and said, we're going to give you all 100, 000 salaries with benefits for the next five years. No strings attached that we would engage in truly transformational work and we would continue doing this work and it would be from a place of resource and we would continue doing the work that we're doing now have more autonomy in the decisions that we're making in our day to day. And let me tell you, at the end of that five years, I'd just love to see that report, even as I'm recording this episode to build this show and bring more attention to these issues. I've personally funded the production of this show. I started love your labels five years ago and have only put money and time into the organization completely volunteer. Along with our board and volunteers. And this is an incredibly common story for mission driven organizations. We have to spend so much time chasing money to do the programs that we don't get to actually do the work as often as we want. And this needs to change. If you're listening and are a funder who wants to or is thinking differently, I would love to talk with you. If you're listening and you're doing advocacy work around funding, I'd love to talk with you. We need to distribute our resources better, folks, and philanthropy is in one of the most privileged positions to do that. You know, the reality is that despite this demand for change, people are going to keep doing this work because the work needs to get done. I think corporations and funders know this and often take advantage of that. I've been trying to get into the habit of modeling the life we try and show our youth they deserve. Compensation for labor, time for rest, time to enjoy the world, create art and take space for joy. We talk about these things while making these sacrifices behind the scenes and it isn't sustainable. So let's acknowledge that we will continue to make sacrifices and yell from the rooftops that we shouldn't have to.

MG Xiong:

I feel like through the continued visibility and affirmation of trans joy, that's really what keeps me going. I have positioned myself in this trans underground, where 99 percent of the people that I spend 99 percent of my time with are trans and are queer, both, you know, during my work day of course, but also when I go home. My, my chosen family, my friends, my loved ones, and I think that is really what gives me that hope, and what gives me the, the power and the energy and the time to be okay doing what I do. And knowing that for as much suffering in the world that is out there in great, great numbers, there is an equal if not larger amount of this trans joy that exists. any congregation of trans and queer people makes me incredibly emotional. It feels like an act of resistance, and sometimes I hate saying that. That us being together is profound, it's something worth celebrating. And while I certainly I feel that. I wish that we didn't have

Joshua Croke:

to say that all the

MG Xiong:

time.

Joshua Croke:

Jumping in with a considering equity moment, MG also highlighted a great example of the barriers people doing good work can face when they aren't also quote unquote great at writing applications, which if you are a funder looking at making more equitable grant making processes, this is something to take note of.

MG Xiong:

Many

Joshua Croke:

organizations just

MG Xiong:

don't have the training or the specific skills that grant funders are looking for in exactly how they write, how they position their organization, their values, and while they're doing incredible work. It just comes down to how well is this application put together. And so when funders aren't providing potential grantees opportunities for that professional development, for, you know, a funder to sit down with someone and say, you know, this is how we can work on your application together. This is what we're looking for. This is how we can help you position the work that you're doing. And so, so often I'm seeing grants just have that financial distribution without any of the support in ensuring that there's equitable access to apply in the first place.

Joshua Croke:

So the grants and foundation space is still in such need of more equitable practices, but there are folks that are doing this work. And I want to just shout out some of the ways in which I've appreciated relationships with funders, uh, either through process or award. So something that I have really appreciated is when instead of a written application, interviews are an option, or the core way in which folks are being considered for a grant. So you meet with someone on the foundation staff, talk about your program. They ask some questions. They take notes. They bring it back to a review committee and the decision is made whether or not to fund the organization. That can be a lot of work. A little bit nerve wracking as well, because you have to perform well in a sit down, you know, one on one or one on three or two on four or whatever the makeup of the your organization representation and the foundation's representation looks like. So, definitely something to consider is language access, uh, and, and other things that might help folks best perform in that environment. But I find that sitting down, having a conversation with folks about a program is much more personal and it also helps you if you're someone applying for these funds, ask questions about what the priorities of the foundation are. And so you can really tailor and talk specifically to that. about how your programs align with their motivations for this funding. And that's not some way of manipulating what your program is going to do. It's actually being able to say, okay, this is something that you're finding as an important part of the consideration to give me money. This is absolutely something the programs address, but maybe we don't, uh, Highlight that as specifically in app, in normal applications for this program. So these interviews give folks a much more personal way to talk about the program in a way that's not read in like 5 to 750 characters in the question of a long grant application. I also like seeing reporting changing and reports also including interviews where Foundation staff will call and check in. And that is the reporting requirement for the organization. Organizations are already capacity strapped and limited in how much data processing and collection that they can do. So while I always encourage and I'm a big fan of data and like, yes, collect data that is important and can help measure success and monitor impact and things like that, but also recognize that so many of us are really time and capacity restricted. And so that data collection and comprehensive reporting simply to fulfill the requirements of a grant that you received, sometimes not even a grant. over a few thousand dollars can be an unnecessary burden on the operations of small organizations. So I really encourage foundations to adopt processes where they're calling and doing check ins and having maybe an interview style, um, conversation at the end of a program term and talk about the successes, the challenges that the organization faced, and then foundation staff actually write up the report. I've seen this happen. In a few foundations that I've worked with, and I find that to be a much more equitable and accessible process. The other thing that I encourage foundations to consider is to co create measures of success with the organizations that you are funding. Oftentimes grants are saying, Oh, you need to show us outcomes on this, this, this, and this, where that might not always align with the programs that folks are running. And it might not actually be the most impactful things to measure. So work with. with organizations on understanding what impact they're having that they want to have and what are the most effective ways to measure that. And also, what are the most effective ways to measure that within the capacity that the organization has? And if the organization doesn't currently have capacity, funders should be considering how to provide additional technical assistance resources in addition to funding to make sure Measures are being tracked, and that's mutually beneficial for both the organization as well as the foundation, because then there's more data and information that can be used in other grant applications, but also for the foundation's board and the folks that are asking about the impact of their investments. And please, for the love of all that is sacred, stop it with reimbursable grants. Reimbursable grants is a completely. inequitable process, full stop. There is so few small, especially organizations that have the cash in the bank to output all of the dollars in order to then have to justify their use of those dollars to then receive the funding from an organization after the fact. And this drives me particularly wild when. Individual artists and creatives are asked to do that, you know, we're going to give you a 10, 000 grant, but you have to spend the 10, 000 upfront most artists and folks that I know working in community doing impactful work, do not have 10, 000 lying around to invest in a project that they then have to justify getting reimbursements for, which I've also seen challenges of like, well, these, you know, 5 here. It doesn't seem like it actually fit the criteria of the grant. So we're not going to give you that. And then it adds up to, Oh, actually about a thousand dollars of this. We just decided are not going to be considered eligible for reimbursement. So we're going to give you 9, 000 of the 10, 000, even though you spent 10. So stop it with reimbursable grants. I could go on, but I won't. I'm just going to leave that there. MG is actually also working on a podcast, which I got to talk to them a little bit about.

MG Xiong:

So it's gonna be true story, trans realities and uniting experiences. And for me, this came a lot through the education and training I do through MTPC. I am meeting with cis people every day, and I have spent like the last two years kind of perfecting a trans 101 curriculum. How do I introduce people to trans experience in a way that is meaningful and also accessible? Many folks that I meet with, I'm the first trans person they're meeting. This is their first exposure to really talking about gender as an expansive experience. And one of the activities that I do is gender memories. And so I ask people to reflect on their earliest memories of gender. of gender. When they recognized their gender, when they realized it was a thing that impacted their navigation of the world, when they might have been forced upon a gender norm that didn't feel right to them. And every single time I ask cis people this question, they share this story. That so closely relates to what we call dysphoria, or feeling left out because of their gender, or feeling like they needed to perform in one specific way. And then, as we kind of unpack that, I share how similar our experiences can be. And that, for many folks, that's how they finally conceptualize gender as an expansive experience. That they, too, have been put into this rigid binary, this rigid way of being, and doing that through storytelling, through the podcast. And so, really wanting to explore what are people's memories of gender from the very start of their life. How have we conceptualized our socialization of gender? And unpacking my gender journey and story as well through conversational interviews with other folks and their gender journeys.

Joshua Croke:

So I want to ask, what are your earliest memories of gender? How was gender defined to you? How have you observed this thing known as quote unquote gender out in the world? I want to reintroduce feedback loop, which is our segment where we're going to feature voice clips and messages from listeners about your thoughts, feelings, comments about gender. things that we're talking about on the show. I'd love if you'd consider sending us a voice memo. You can send it to me directly at josh at queer4cities. com and it might just end up on the show. Reflecting on this personally for myself, I, as I've mentioned before, I grew up in a very conservative religious household, very successfully sheltered in a very homogenous environment, both at church, at school, at which was a private church school for a large majority of my early childhood. And even in our social spaces, it was all friends from church, etc. So, my view of the world was very myopic. And I remember as a little kid, I loved playing make believe. Playing make believe was like the thing that I would just live in the clouds. I would take on different identities or personas or characters from Shows that I love and I was so frequently drawn to feminine characters. I specifically remember like being obsessed with Jasmine when we would play like Disney or Aladdin or what, what have you. And while that doesn't always mean that you're going to grow up to be queer and trans, um, in my case, it definitely was part of my gender journey that was discouraged at such an early age that I didn't. Connect it until much, much later in life as part of my gender journey. And for a long time, I didn't have the language or understanding to separate my gender and sexuality journey so that they were so intermixed that when I was kind of thrown out of the closet in high school when I was starting to experiment and ask questions, um, this is by, at, at this point I was in. public high school. So when I was outed, I was faced with this, Oh, do I claim this and stay out and proud? Do I try and retreat and, and say that this isn't true? And when I decided to claim at the time, gay identity, it had to mean so much because on one hand facing it at home, I was also outed or discovered at home around the same time. So it was a very turbulent. time in my early high school years, um, to, to be navigating questions around my sexuality and not understanding that gender was also rattling about in there as well, something I didn't realize for another 10 plus years. But um, I had to be so confidently gay. because of any chance family or unsupportive folks would get to say, ah, you know, you're confused. It means you don't know that you're this way. It means you're probably not. And we need to reeducate or get you back on the right path, quote unquote, the right path as the folks in church would like to say. So coming out, not when I was ready and Uh, given that challenge and the, the turbulence of that time, there was also this like, okay, something about myself that I know is there and is true is out in the open. And that is like a sigh of relief moment. But I also had to buckle down in, or at least I felt that I had to really buckle down in, in my confidence around my identity so quickly that I didn't really get. to give myself where I didn't afford myself the time to really explore the nuances of my sexuality, of my gender in a way that was safe in a way that allowed me to better understand who I was. And for years and years and years following being out and having to feel so confident in like, this is how I identify. You can't tell me any differently. It was this defense mechanism that prevented me from tapping into a deeper understanding of myself. And for so long, I defined my queerness based on the comfort level of those around me and shape shifted and took different forms based on what was going to make me feel safe, but also accepted by folks. who I felt had an expectation of what me being a gay man at the time looked like. So jumping back to what I was originally saying about gender and gender roles and the definitions of gender and how it was presented to us when we were kids, like, I had a complete lack of ability to talk about gender, and it was also intertwined with everything that I was fighting. I was that kid who, I grew up with a lot of cousins, And we were all very close, very close in age. There's 10 of us. I was always closer with my female cousins. And, you know, I didn't really fit in to the things that the boys were doing, by and large. And also, you know, struggled with having a desire to do the things that were quote unquote boys things, like sports, and like all of those things that we know are not gendered. And there are lots of women and girls who love sports and things that are Traditionally defined as masculine or manly or for boys. And so I really just was wanting to be this little human that had an interest in things like fashion. I grew up going thrift shopping with my mom and my grandmother all the time. And was drawn to things that were like, no, that's for girls. And those responses and reactions you internalize and build and build and build these constructs in your mind of like, Oh, I am a kid. And I think that shiny pink. Boa is cool. Why can't I touch it? It makes no sense to me. An adult is telling me that I can't so they must be right because they're a lot older than me. So I'm gonna trust them and you have no idea the impact that that has on young people and not just on how we express and dress, but also the things that we choose to do with our lives, the careers that we pursue. Um, You know, the, the ways in which we spend our time, the hobbies that we get involved in that bring us joy. Sometimes people shut themselves off so completely to things that would otherwise make them thrive and feel joy. And in many cases continue. Their survival that we shut down because of these gender roles. So anyways, I'm excited for MG's podcast. So keep an eye out for true story trans realities and uniting experiences from MG. And so in our continued work to build more inclusive communities where queer and trans folks thrive I've asked each guest the question, what do our communities need to make queer a joyful norm? MD gave one of the most actionable responses yet.

MG Xiong:

We need radical accountability towards one another and for me that looks like ensuring that we are caring for one another and that when we are holding someone accountable that means that we care about them enough that we know that they are capable of more.

Joshua Croke:

In our journey to cultivate just and equitable communities, the practice of accountability is pivotal, but it's often an absent or very unpracticed element. How can we hold each other accountable when we are not together? How can we foster accountability, an opportunity for reflection and change, when conversations are avoided or people are prematurely excluded? I feel that a lot of American society equates accountability with punishment, that in order to, for something to be fixed, someone must lose something. I have been inspired and changed by the work of Adrienne Marie Brown and her book, We Will Not Cancel Us, and Other Dreams of Transformative Justice, which is part of the Emergent Strategies series, which guides so much of how I move through this existence. Transcribed and has inspired me and encouraged me to face how I've held myself and others accountable and how to reshape that toward love and possibility. In this book, Adrian says, I want our movement to feel like a vibrant, accountable space where causing harm does not mean you are excluded immediately and eternally from healing, justice, community, or belonging. As we continue these conversations with Queer for Cities, I am rooted in the question of how we might better hold ourselves, our queer and trans siblings, our community leaders, folks actively working to remove our rights, freedoms, and safeties also, to account that contribute to healing and transformation rather than exclusion and divisiveness. How might we reimagine accountability as a tool for collective empowerment and restoration, paving the way for a more compassionate and just society? Adrian continues, if I can see the ways I am perpetuating systemic oppressions, if I can see where I learned the behavior and how hard it is to unlearn it, I start to have more humility as I see the messiness of the communities. I am a part of the world I live in.

MG Xiong:

That effort that we put into loving each other, to affirming each other, to producing joy, makes all of the difference in our everyday. A mantra that I have for myself is that if I take care of the days, the weeks and months will take care of themselves. And so I just need to focus on Being kind to others today, doing my best today, whatever that best looks like in holding myself accountable and others today and that the weeks and months will then take care of themselves. And so just focusing on now and how we can love and protect and, and produce peace for, for one another.

Joshua Croke:

This is our movement, the production of peace. I'm so honored to be holding space with folks like MG and Taj, sharing learning, fostering new and deepening existing relationships, and working toward a more just and liberated world where everyone thrives. I believe to do that, we very much need to center the lives and experiences of queer and trans people. The moment in time that we live in, is a critical factor in how we participate in change work. We're at a time where 2SLGBTQIA plus people are a talking point on a pulpit of hate and fear. There are people removing our rights to exist in space, from using the bathroom we're most comfortable in, to playing the sports that we want to play, on the team that aligns with our gender. Our history is being removed from schools through book bans and censorships, and we're being denied healthcare access that is proven to be life saving. Our mission is to make queer a joyful norm. Because when we build inclusive and loving communities where queer and trans folks thrive, we build better places for everyone. In our first episodes of Queer for Cities, we've talked about having challenging conversations with folks in our lives that aren't supportive of queer and trans people, and when to disengage to protect our spirits. We've explored possible futures for religion and spirituality that embrace each person's journey to bloom into our truest selves. And we've envisioned trans futures where we all have enough. And brought it back down to the present by talking about how the current flow of resources from philanthropy and corporations could catalyze more rapid change, but often slows the transformational work we need to do because of current funding restrictions, limitations, and priorities. In our next episode, we talk with Aaron Greiner, an urban designer based in Somerville, Massachusetts, about the right to be queer in public. Or lack thereof, and what that means for how we are able to navigate space and our safety. You're listening to Queer for Cities. I'm your host, Joshua Kroak, and I'm out to make queer a joyful norm. You can hear us loud and queer wherever you get your podcasts, and on WICN 90. 5 FM, Worcester's only NPR affiliate station. Jack Tripp is our assistant producer and Giuliano D'Orazio is our audio engineer and music producer. You can learn more about our show, send us a voice memo, and more at queerforcities. com. Hey folks, it's Josh. Do you have challenges in your community that require collaborative and creative solutions? My team specializes in forming and facilitating collaborative partnerships and finding creative solutions to community challenges, and I'd love to talk with you about working together. I also am available to speak on topics of queer identity, equitable community development, and cultivating inclusive creative ecosystems. Send me an email at josh at queerforcities. com to find a time to explore possibilities together. Hey Queer for Cities fans! Did you know that we've got merch? We've got a growing list of options over at queerforcities. com slash store, where you can rep merch from tees to totes that support the creation of queer media like our Queer for Cities podcast. What do you want to see in the store? Send us a DM on Instagram at queer4cities. See you in the streets!