Mostafa ElBermawy Breaks Down the Future of Marketing (And It’s Not What You Think)

In this episode of The Quest for Success Podcast, we sit down with Mostafa ElBermawy - growth advisor, AI strategist, and founder of NoGood, one of the fastest-growing marketing agencies in the US. He's also the founder of Goodie AI, a revolutionary tool to help brands prepare for the transition to Answer engine optimisation. From his early days in a family business in Cairo to leading cutting-edge marketing strategies for global startups and Fortune 500s, Mostafa shares his definition of success, rooted in purpose, impact, and adaptability.

We dive deep into the evolving world of growth marketing, the rise of AI-powered brand discovery, and what it takes to build and scale a successful company while maintaining strong team culture. Mostafa reflects on lessons learned from corporate and startup life, the critical shift from search engines to action engines, and how brands must evolve to stay relevant in an AI-driven future.

The conversation explores:
•How AI is transforming search from engines to action interfaces
•Why authenticity and storytelling are the future of brand growth
•The new rules of AI SEO, technical crawlability, and online reputation
•Why culture is more important than  sales when scaling a company
•The role of community and human connection in a data-driven world
 •Mostafa’s personal strategies for growth, differentiation, and experimentation

Whether you’re a founder, marketer, or creator, this episode is packed with forward-thinking insights to help you grow with purpose in a fast-changing digital world.

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Transcript

Dylan Pathirana (00:20.384)
All right. Welcome back to the quest for success podcast. And thank you so much for tuning in once again, today on the show. We're incredibly excited because we're joined by Mustafa Alba Mawai, who is for me really defining the future of combining AI and growth marketing to build the future of growth and marketing. And so really excited to kind of dive into his story and what he's building today. And also I had the opportunity to meet Mustafa.

at Harvard Business School when we're doing Harvard OPM. And also Mustafa visited us in Sydney probably about 18 months ago and had a great speech with my team, B Dynamic Team. It was really eye-opening discussion. So we are really looking forward to having you on our show, Mustafa.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:08.27)
Thank you, thank you guys, very generous intro. Glad to be here, Jammin' Dillon. Appreciate you guys.

Dylan Pathirana (01:13.962)
So Mustafa, this conversation is all about success. And so we need to start with a very fundamental question. And that is, what does success actually mean to you?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:23.846)
it means being... Great question, first of all. I didn't expect to start to off with philosophical questions, but it means being happy and having the freedom to make the change and the impact in the world that you... Every person is unique here, but you feel like you want and expected to make.

Dylan Pathirana (01:31.04)
you

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:53.496)
Freedom can mean different things and impact can mean different things for different people, but I really care about impact and the ability. And success can come from your ability to impact lives and drive impact in the world. So that's how I define success. That's probably the more macro view. It's impact and lifting lives, including your own life up. Maybe if you ask me in my 20s what success would mean for me, I would have defined it differently, but I think that's what it means for me now.

Dylan Pathirana (02:24.224)
I really like that lots of impact there. And we'll dive into that a bit later in the discussion. But for us to understand the man who's sitting in front of us right now, we need to understand a little bit about your background and understand how you got to where you are today. So can you get walk us through a little bit of your your early life and kind of how you ended up in the space right now?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (02:45.39)
Awesome. All right. Well, that's how much time we got. I feel like I'll try. I'll tell you a quick version. So I'm Egyptian. That's where I grew up. I grew up in Cairo and just to, you know, I had a great family where they invested in my education and they set up great, you know, they were different. My brothers and sisters were amazing role models and so were my parents and I grew up in a family business. So I learned a thing or two about entrepreneurship early on and

Dylan Pathirana (02:48.102)
We got time.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (03:15.278)
And then, you know, left Cairo in, I think I was 19, 18 when I first started traveling. would say 18 to first to Berlin where I was doing sort of a program there. And then from there came to the US to Montana, Bozeman, Montana, particularly. I love Montana. I still have a 406 number. You guys probably don't know where Montana is. You guys know where Montana is?

Dylan Pathirana (03:43.54)
Nah, I've watched Yellowstone, I know where Montana is.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (03:45.518)
You know, you know, Montana, it's like most Americans don't know where Montana is, right. But, but it's beautiful. A lot of great people I met there and amazing people overall, just amazing city. think it's a Bozeman is a great city. It's become quite popular post COVID. But so what else? think from there, I was in the Bay Area for a little bit, but then New York and there's a little bit of a switching between Bay Bay Area in New York, but primarily New York.

And yeah, was been tech for a while now, been a tech bro, worked in big tech, worked in banking. Before it was called FinTech, I worked in banking. I was at Amix for a while and then joined a bunch of startups. It was Microsoft Amix and joined a bunch of startups back to back. Luckily enough, three of these startups got acquired. I was headed up growth and then product and then sort of like, you leadership in these companies. So I got lucky there and then...

joined a few, we started doing consulting and advisory for different companies and different VC funds in the space. And then after that ended up with No Good, trying to build a team that I wasn't able to build in-house. So I built No Good and scaled that to about 70 people north of eight figures in revenue and EPDA within three years. And we worked with some of the best brands in the game.

those include, you know, the, TikTok and ByteDance early on when it first came to the US market. We were the first partner to ByteDance and this is in the early days, they were not as sexy and cool as they are today. And then we had a nice ride with them, but also all the way to, you know, companies like Aurarangs and, you know, some of the leading AI companies in the world now. And again, some we can't say, some we can't say, but we're really like growth partners behind many leading.

category-leading companies in this space. That's what I love doing. mean, my background is growth engineering. Essentially, that's like sort of been doing for the past 15 years, a little bit sometimes on the product side, sometimes engineering, but a lot of the time on the marketing side and solving marketing problems. And more recently, we're now at, we built Goody for the past two years, and that's like pioneering AI search and answer engine optimization platform, already like being used by

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (06:12.142)
some leading brands in the space and I think we were early, probably like now two years ago when I was doing this, people thought we were crazy but finally Goody is in a really good spot and sort of really happy to be there. That's where I'm getting my energy now. It's like that intersection of how AI is really changing growth and how it's changing brand discovery and visibility. So that's the full all over the place intro. I wasn't sure what part you're interested in.

I started personal and then ended up with career stuff. So tell me, what side are we trying to like dive deeper into? But hopefully that gives you a full picture.

Dylan Pathirana (06:45.084)
Yep.

Dylan Pathirana (06:50.602)
Yeah. I just have one question because I know that you started out in archeology and now you ended up as a tech bro. Please, please tell us what, what made you leave archeology and then go full left-hand turn into, into tech.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (06:56.844)
Yes, yes, I even left that part.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (07:06.936)
funny story, I love archaeology, I still do. I'm actually trying to go to the Grand Egyptian Museum, which is the biggest museum in the world that is opening up this year. literally looking at my ticket. I'm like, I need to get there. Even though I don't have the time, wrapping up my round, and we got a bunch of things. That's how obsessed I am with archaeology.

It obviously like growing up by the pyramids is like you're fascinated immediately as a kid. Like I was like, I want to figure this thing out. Like one of the first mysteries you want to figure out, right? So I was so obsessed with it that I ended up actually studying archaeology. But midway through archaeology, like, you know, I guess in high school, I discovered computers and engineering and coding, taught myself how to code. And in college, I started using that to build

websites, apps, and a bunch of other things. And back in the day, if you're able to do that, people would give you a lot of money to do it for them. I would feel like just markets did their thing. And I was taken out of archaeology to do a bunch of things. And as a young kid at the time, I was like, you know what? I also love technology. Let me do that. But actually, one of my first projects is building a website.

for archaeology website, like one of the biggest archives for this sort of travel website now turned into a travel website. But I wanted to, they hired me for the archaeology side, but I convinced them I can build this into a website and archive and drive a ton of people to it and did the SEO for it. We're talking here 2006, 2007.

So back in the day, that was as commonly available, I would say, talent. And from there, I was dragged more and more into tech. But I've always been an entrepreneur through and through, being grown up in entrepreneurial house. And I'm wired by problem solving. And I obsess over the things I genuinely care about. And I try to really unravel them and figure out how I can make this become more valuable.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (09:23.064)
I've always wanted to help my family. How can I help fix the business problem they keep bringing to the dinner table? I'm like trying to like figure out how I can actually help fix things for them. And archaeology was also really good problem solving. like there's a lot that you try and need to figure out and mystery and was fascinating. I still love it, but and it's still science obviously. And it gets you sort of it's intersection of science and history and creative in a way or

Dylan Pathirana (09:39.156)
Absolutely.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (09:52.59)
science and geology and particularly history. That's sort of the intersection that you're at there. And there's a bunch of other things now that people study, but for the most part, that's the journey. Hopefully that answers your questions because I feel like, know, do you want to nerd out on how the pyramids are built? I'm always down.

Dylan Pathirana (10:04.968)
Yeah, Mustafa. Definitely. Mustafa, this... So we got so much to explore on you in this discussion. But in layman terms, can you tell me what growth engineering is?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (10:24.298)
It's essentially like you building the systems that continuously sort of identifies the unique variables and levers to each brands to help drive sustainable compounding growth. So there's a system and there is unique variables and levers that you need to identify. You're constantly pursuing figuring these variables out. And the goal is, the North Star is rapid compounding, measurable.

Growth. Miserable has component. The system has a component. The market stack and the technology they use is a big component, especially today. And that's why that became a thing. You really need to be strong with data marketing technology. But also, a lot of people use go to market engineering now. That's a fancy term, Back in the day, growth engineering, before it was just developer that happens to be in marketing. Doesn't matter what label you put into it.

At the end of the day, it's like, you know, system thinker that comes in leverages available tools in order to achieve the goal and find the path with the least resistance to identify these variables and levers and use them in order to drive rapid compounding measurable growth. As I said, measurable has its own problems. There's a million problem there and building that system and scaling that system also has its own.

challenges with every channel, every sort of unit economics and sort of like the even within product that's where it gets complicated. You're building that within on top of a product. So now we got to figure out this engineering team, product team, how you big that into a product with product lead growth and a bunch of other sort of methodologies that are widely accepted and used today. So hopefully that answer your question.

Dylan Pathirana (12:12.256)
And you mentioned that you've kind of worked at a variety of places, both in big corporate, you know, at Microsoft and Amex, and then also a couple of startups. What are kind of the key lessons that you learned in the contrast between the two?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (12:26.99)
I actually do remember being at my desk at Amix at 200 Vessi Street in West Side here. Those in Manhattan would know what I'm talking about. think I do remember writing down that I never want to be at a big company again. And I just, I feel like at that moment that I realized why I don't function at big companies. And I know it's like for, I just, are the words I used. was like, I never want to work at a big company again.

And because I really hated not seeing the fruits of my labor. I think I've had just gotten a big project done and it feels like it goes into a void. You're not able to see the fruits of it. And that's where I get my energy. I genuinely care about my work and I want to see the fruits of my labor. I want to see the impact of the work that I do. And I wasn't sure how to solve for that. I love the company. Great people. Learned ton. They gave me a promotion right before I leave. They said, you know what, you're going to stay. You can do this. You can do that. Like it's, but I...

I wanted to see the impact of my work and the fruits of my labor. So I kept going smaller and smaller until I realized, let me just go to zero. That's the point zero is where I'm get my energy. But along the way you learn and you build relationships and sort of build impact. now that I think about it, I think the problem is, it's a learning journey. And I've always been an entrepreneur at heart. I tried a few things on the side while I was there too. And I'm like constantly trying these different projects and different things.

But I've always been an entrepreneur at heart and a problem solver. And I think in big companies, think the problem, I have to be able to see the problem end end to be engaged, to be able to join a big machine again, if that makes sense. And I literally wrote that down in, I believe, 2012, 2013. And I still have the note. So that's a big contrast.

Dylan Pathirana (14:15.776)
So what inspired you to get into growth engineering, Mustafa?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (14:23.178)
It's the same thing that got me into archaeology. think it's really hunting for... Yeah, it's a curiosity is what got me there. It's like, yes, it's really hunting for... It's obsessive nature and curiosity. You're trying to solve and figure something out. And along the way, you're enjoying the journey and the ride and you're leveraging your unique set of skills to...

Dylan Pathirana (14:30.944)
curiosity.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (14:50.328)
to find that in the fastest and most efficient and effective ways. then at end day, it's a game, and I like to enjoy the ride. I like to be, if you want to be good at something, you just need to enjoy the ride and really treat it as a drill, a game. Bring that sports mindset and try to do your drills and figure out whether you're going to really be, if you want to be the best in the world, you can't really avoid these drills. And you cannot not enjoy the ride because that's an important part of it. And I think I'm very driven by

I'm very curious of how to help companies grow and what are the systems that drives that for big companies, small companies. And I think the more you do that, the more you get better at figuring that out. And you build the muscles for it and you can build systems and teams and now products for it. So there's a lot there, but the curiosity and also very wired by product because I could have done like,

Brand marketing I could have done PR I wasn't really so much into that because I don't think it would there's as much things system thinking there So while I was sort of like my left brain or right brain or I wanted to I was sort of in between We're even no good. We always say we're intersection of side growth science and creative storytelling so that intersectionality is Was really helpful to be at and that's what that's what gets me going gets me career. So

Dylan Pathirana (16:11.72)
to to, to no good next. Can you tell us a bit about the of the founding story there? Why, why did you move away from those big companies and startups and go off on your own and start no good?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (16:24.78)
Well, I wanted to build a team that I wasn't able to build in house. I think after doing this a few times, the last two companies, I was literally moved from full-time to consultant right away. It took me a year, and I was like, you know what? We've done here. We built a team. We've done this. We started doing it really fast. I love doing it. And I was already getting a lot of inbound to do this for other companies and different investors and advisory who pulled me to do this for advise their companies, advise their teams.

So I ended up with No Good because I didn't have anything better to do. And it probably can be reflected in the name. One of our favorite spots in New York was No Fun Bar. I used live in Lower East Side. We used to always go there. And I was like, you know what? What am I going to name this company? Now I'm like, I left this company. I wasn't sure what to do. I started traveling the world. I'm like, all right, what am I going to do next? And I'm like, I'm going to start a company and call it No Good.

If this bar can do it, I can do this too. And I think it would be fun. I also like there's like the sort of like a brand concept generally, know, I would say controversially have the highest form of recall. That's actually if you want to get something from Trump's playbook. His, you know, being loud and controversial is the most, is the highest form of recall. And it's able to actually dominate rooms and in a space where we had 120,000 companies doing the same thing that we're doing.

You want to make sure that you're memorable and that memorability and recall is valuable. And we thought that the name no good makes sense and I own the domain. So I called it no good. And then again, I was lucky. I built an incredible team and we started like, you know, immediately like getting more inbound than we can even handle scale the team. But more importantly, I think we focused more on being sort of like team first client, second dynamics where we're actually hiring the best in the game. And then naturally the bet we end up doing really good work instead of being sort of sales driven and

and not team driven. So we ended up hiring a really great team, but we also focused on the work and the retention rather than focusing on the sales. And I think that led to being a premium player immediately in the space and being known for that. So the combination of these two, quality and team first approach to agency, which was sort of like not really common. And then we have always the tech layer. We've always been tech enabled company, built our own proprietary tools and technology, which sort of like how we ended up with Goody now.

Dylan Pathirana (18:48.596)
And you you mentioned that you, you've scaled really quickly and, you know, built this team and grew quite fast. One of the things that I always find is, you know, between the zero to one and then the one to 10 phase is in that one to 10 phase, companies start to lose their culture. I want to understand how you've managed to keep that strong culture within your team as you've kind of grown.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (19:13.602)
That's a great question. think culture is the amalgam of interactions that every single team member would have and the lack of policies and procedures and all of the values that you force on them, right? And culture starts with every single person you hire and who you let go first is going to make your culture too, not just who you hire. So you need to make sure that you have clear mission vision values, obviously.

And you need to hire people that are aligned with that and make sure that you have clear goals and treat them the way you want to be treated. So your values have to be exemplified in the action that you take, not just the things you keep saying. And I think you need to be hyper aware as a founder of that. But then don't be the culture yourself. Be the curator of culture. Take a step back and try to like...

really boost the things that you see in people that are really aligned with cultures and values rather than you trying to be that culture. And I think once the culture is built from the ground up, no one takes it away from you because I see a lot of founders trying to be everything, trying to be the culture, the loudest voice, the inspirational. And I'm like, that's good, that's sustainable, but when you go home, is that the culture that is gonna still be around? So I think culture starts with who you hire, the mission, vision, values that you have.

The type of clients you take on, sometimes we say no to lot of clients and partners just because we don't have the culture alignment. And we need to stay true. think we were the type of companies that let a bunch of clients go. We just broke the relationship just because it didn't make sense for us. And we can do that. And that's totally cool. And that's not just to be exclusive or anything. It's just our culture is that way. And that's why we have incredible retention as well in our team. have even people that would come and join us and then would

Even when they leave, they will come and join us every now and It was a comfort lunch. They show up on on-sites, just constantly showing up at the office. Hey guys, just wanted to stop by. How are you doing? So we have these, we've built a community at large and now you really get a lot of energy from that. And I think that's one of the benefits of NoGood is that it's really team first, client second, and we've built some of the best talents in the industries, in my opinion. And a lot of them are out there crushing it for other companies.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (21:29.496)
Many of them are here doing amazing work for some of the best companies. And think we continue to be sort of talent builders that I think is a great differentiator for us. And as I always say, it's like I also learned from them. And the culture is no longer me. The culture is the team. And I take part in. And they correct me sometimes if I'm off culture. And also, I avoid that unculture hire.

I don't like that because that often involves a lot of bias. But yeah, culture is just being on values and exemplifying it as a leader and be a curator of it rather than being a, don't force it down people's throat because people will tell you, you have the power, people will tell you what you want to hear. Let them just act that when you're not around and see what actually truly happens. That's real culture.

Dylan Pathirana (22:13.472)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (22:20.094)
And you've got some really big clients. so clearly you're doing something different. And I want to know like, what's the secret source of no good? Like what's the philosophy that drives your growth marketing?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (22:33.485)
I think they come to us. It's based on our work. It's the same formula. We never pick up the phone or reach out to a client partner. They come to us. come for the brand that we've built and the work that we've done and the thought leadership that we put out and the perspective that we have in this space. And I just don't think it's... And we do a good job. when we just did this campaign with this one company and it was that April Fool's campaign, it really went viral. got, you

millions of views and likes and get coverage. And then the CMO loved it so much that ended up just like texted me and had a chat about it and then came to the office and they want to do more and they want to connect me with this other brand that I think this is what we do. Like a lot of the time it's the quality of the work that we do. as I said, it's the obsessing over the work. It's like we're...

We always tell the team it's like it's we're in the NBA or the Premier League of that sport and and want to be like really like the one we're in the Premier League every year. And and it's fun. We're enjoying it. We love it. And and sometimes when we don't like it was like who's out there being that without their was the best now. And how can we what can we learn from them. What is the change and how can we adapt and continue to in that space and.

We're not trying to be a massive company. We're not trying to be like a really big, you know, massive companies. know, you know, Jam, that's what we learned at HBS scale and all that. I think that has its different sort of like, we do that on the goody side of things, but I think on the no good, has to be a quality play and then continue to be a premier studio in our space.

Dylan Pathirana (24:05.886)
Yep. Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (24:18.304)
So Mustafa, what are the key considerations that you keep in mind when you're creating a growth initiative?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (24:29.326)
Key considerations, I think understanding who you're selling into is probably the biggest factor. Who are you selling into? what is, I think that we give energy more to what's the product than to who are we selling this into and what did they truly care about. I think understanding that really, really, really well is gonna be an indicator of how good your strategy really is. And by really well means not just persona mapping, I mean,

really genuinely well, like you're immersed. It's like, you're in the dinner room and in a dinner table and you don't know the people on that dinner table, you're probably like, you're just gonna be having a random conversation and small talks. You can say a few things, everyone would be everyone would be nice to you. But imagine if you're on a dinner table and you know everyone around. Your ability to actually have an impactful conversation would be two or three X.

Compared to just being a complete stranger that being said you can also be a complete stranger and be completely very interesting But that doesn't mean that you're gonna consider build a system around it you can't build it like a repeat like a a System that keeps on sort of giving so figuring out who are you selling into and? And what is it? They generally care about and how they evolved because you evolve and change and there's culture right like they have a perspective other players come and talk to them so having that pulse of The mark of who you're talking to the market

that you're into, because that's also impact who you're talking to. And then obviously, like, knowing your products end end and what problems your products exactly solve and how to connect that back. This is sort of like general generic terms. If you want to go into details, that's where it gets a little bit tough. That's the stuff that you can read on a random growth marketing blog today. But it gets more complicated as you try to build the system and you try to do that at scale, especially in a space where it's busy.

Dylan Pathirana (26:10.107)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (26:26.318)
everyone's attention is very short right now and where technology is becoming more more complicated.

Dylan Pathirana (26:34.016)
So follow up question to that, how do you kind of measure a success of your campaign? What are the KPIs, or what do you use to measure it?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (26:44.606)
It depends on the nature of the campaign. will tell you, it's to measure the success of... First of all, it has to be... You have to tell me what your goal is as a business because growth is... Or distribution in general as a problem is... It's an amplifier. You're trying to grow something that already exists. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. So growth has to start from what is its vision and what is its strategy? Because there are many ways to take a route towards the destination.

You just need to find the route that makes the most sense for you based on how long is you want that route to be. What is the big win towards you? How much money do you got to get there? There are many ways to do different things and you just need the details are the components that you're going to put together this sort of growth system, starting with a few assumptions, growth modeling of sort, and making sure that you're laying out the right technology.

to make sure that your system is repeated and effective. Make sure that you have the right talents in place. How to even orchestrate a growth team. How to build a growth function that keeps on giving for an organization. And what are the things that they should be focused on? Where it should live. Should it live on their product? Should it live on their brand? Should it live under marketing? Who should you start hiring first? Should you hire a VP? Or should you hire a growth marketer? There's a lot of decisions that has to be made at the onset of the day.

building a growth function which typically comes after seed or like you know if you have a big seed and in certain industries it can but most companies it's after the A round that's where you start building that function. For existing companies there's a lot more to sort of unravel because is it a sales led organization? A lot of organizations are is it a product led? Is it engineering led? Or is it finance led? We've seen some of those too. So what type of organization are you walking into? What is the mindset of the organization and what does growth actually means for them?

and work backwards from there.

Dylan Pathirana (28:44.466)
And what are some of the key levers which you're seeing now being more effective? Like I assume in the past, you know, when search was really the key thing SEO was really big. Now with the rise of social media is, is it social media marketing? I want to get your, your take.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (29:03.244)
No, it's another great question. think the arbitrage right now is in my opinion, I think in AI search. think if you, there are billions of people that are using LLMs and AI search to have their questions answered and to make buying decisions every single day now. We're talking billions, not millions. I said billions. think Lama came out and said they're used by over a billion. Jim and I said it's used by over a billion. Google said that and then

Chagiepti is over close to 500 million now. These are also, these platforms are embedded in almost nearly every experience that is out there from Apple Intelligence to everything else. And we're talking about billions of users and different behavior in this sort of new interface. There's a new way how we digest, understand, and consume information on the web. LLMs are also becoming the gatekeeper of information on the web.

in order to take an action of sorts, it's going to start with an LLM and often end with an LLM. So that tells me that's the biggest opportunity and it's the biggest arbitrage. But sometimes the Martex tech hasn't evolved, like the technology itself. You're not going to see that in your Google Analytics yet. And everyone is waiting to read about it and hear about it. Well, everyone is busy building the actual technology. Everyone's competing at the LLM level, but they haven't really caught up and built that second layer, which is the Martex tech. And that's exactly what we built at Goody.

So essentially, like the biggest arbitrage is getting discovered on chadgp, perplexity, Gemini, all of these surfaces that are dominating our lives now and is going to dominate even more. And if you're not paying attention to that, are in by 2020, 2028, according to Gartner, it's going to be 50 % of 50 % of brands are going to be discovered on LLM first. That's massive. That's what happened with search.

That's what's happening with social media at some point. So there is this layer that is created that is intermediate between a brand and its consumer right now. Consumer is going to learn about your brand from Perplexity and Gemini and ChadGPT before they come to you. And that is really powerful. we're going to lose the connection between your website is not going to be the first destination to tell your story. It's going to be ChadGPT telling your story first. And then people are going to come to your website. So we lost that referral engine.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (31:31.982)
Google being a referral engine, we lost it. Or slowly losing it, Google just launched Google AI mode. So AI mode is essentially chat-t-pt on top of Google or Gemini on top of Google, and it's running the whole thing. So that shift that happened and already kicked off in 2024, now it's going to be mainstream in 2025, in my opinion, if it's not already considered mainstream. I still think people are not catching up fast enough with all of this, in my opinion, and that's the biggest arbitrage right now.

Dylan Pathirana (31:41.292)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Pathirana (32:00.308)
And in terms of, you know, I'm an engineer at heart, so I need to understand a little bit about how that even works. know, SEO is a lot about keywords and things like that in the AI SEO world. How, how do brands actually go about doing making, making their brand more visible to LLMs that are crawling the information.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (32:19.928)
So let me adjust a few things here. So one is we've moved from search engines, conventional search engine, to answer engines. But there's also action engines, the agents, right? Like the Manos operator, deep search, those are all agents doing search on your behalf. Human here is not doing the search. It's a bot, an AI crawler that does the search on your behalf. So that's because we're going to get to that concept. I want to because when you say

AI SEO, we think of human searching and who's going to be ranking. The analogy with SEO is problematic because I think there's a completely different underlining shift in terms of technology itself, but there's also like that Asian factor that becomes interesting as well. but yes, how do you do like AI SEO or AEO answer engine optimization, whatever, geo, whatever you want to call it, people call it different things now. I think the main thing is...

You need to believe that you or know that you are not who you think you are. You're not just what you say about your website on your website. You are what the Internet says about you. These LLMs are trained on the Internet. They're not just trained on your site. So you're not who you think you are. You are what the Internet says about you. Massive difference. Complete sort of shift in how you do things because SEO is like, I'm in control. I'm going to trick all of these keywords. I'm going to do all of this. Well, the LLM has we unlock semantic understanding and understand that that's your website. Here's what you say about yourself. But guess what? Here's what everybody else says about you.

Big shift. So once that settles in, a lot of things start to fall in place. things that matters are first of all, like the technical AO or AI crawl ability and indexing is very important. Making sure that you don't have a robots text file, TXT file that is blocking these bots to begin with. And all of a sudden you're trying to optimize and, but you're blocking them from retrieving information from your site. The way these LLMs work, there's, know, the LLM, which is sort of this massive

memory, right, with billions of data. And then there's also this RAG, which is a retrieval source that you're pulling information from. So the LLM is going to make a decision to give you the visibility or the lack of based on the training data and the sources that it used to train its model. And it's going to pull from that directly because it's this giant memory, right? Or it's going to pull from a retrieval source.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (34:44.78)
that is more up to date and it's gonna help it avoid hallucination and it's gonna bring something that is fresh and relevant. So you need to exist in these two, the training data and the retrieval sources. And Goody helps you there just identify actually what training data and what retrieval sources the model is using and pinpoints what you should be optimizing for. That's a really hard problem to solve. So we also do the observability piece. Like how do you even measure that? Because people don't click.

It's about the visibility. So it's a zero click experience. Because remember, like that click, that was the holy grail of Google. Google has a $250 billion business built on the PPC pay-per-click. Well, they're not clicking anymore. They are just reading Chajipti. are talking to their... So they're not clicking. How do you measure that? That's where observability and visibility becomes a factor. So we're able to offer, like measure the brand impressions all the way to conversions. And that's another...

piece of technology that we worked hard on building. How can you build that? But back to your question. So what you do is make sure that you're crawlable and accessible by these LLMs. Whether they want to train on your data, it depends on if you're the New York Times, you probably don't want that. But if you're just in a regular sort of business, most businesses, you probably just allow it to do that. Or the retrieval bot when it's retrieving data. So there's two types of bots. Training bots.

and retrieval bots, allow them to enter your website. That's number one. Make sure that your information can be retrieved in under two seconds or three seconds. So really fast site. Make sure that your content is super high quality, high intent, relevant, all of the good stuff that we used to do for SEO, but now you actually have to do it because the LLM would be able to read the content and tell you if this is good or not. once again, we unlock the lot today. Focus on citation that are relevant, contextual citation.

that are often being pulled, that are often being used as a training source, citation in sources that matters. This is why you see people caring about Reddit all of sudden, or Google reviews, or Quora, or what is being said on YouTube, which some models are trained on, right? So that also matters. So that wasn't the case in SEO. Back in the SEO days, you had to do link building. had to make sure the keywords are this. You do keyword stuffing, and then you have all of these tricks. There are a bunch of tricks that you can do with these.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (37:09.566)
AO and all of these LLMs as well. just, again, start by unlearning first, understanding that there is a fundamental foundational shift in how technology actually works, and then start approaching it methodically and use the right tech stack to actually be able to execute on it effectively.

Dylan Pathirana (37:29.088)
So this is quite scary, right? someone, you can't, yeah, I mean, you know, because someone else pretty much write your bio, your profile, right? So how important, I mean, we're talking about authenticity, know, being authentic, how important is like storytelling? Like, you know, because

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (37:35.126)
I didn't mean to scare you, Jan. That was not the purpose.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (37:46.519)
Yes.

Dylan Pathirana (37:58.57)
Doesn't matter because in marketing strategies, we talked about being authentic, telling your story. But if someone else writing your story, needs to be, there's a way, right? Do you understand what I'm saying?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (38:12.076)
I think, yeah, I do. think it's, actually, I think with the more content and the more AI-generated stuff we have in the world, the more important authenticity will become. So I feel like that's the connection. At the end of the day, the reason why I'm enjoying this conversation more than I would enjoy it with ChadGPT, because I know you. We've gone out together. We have connection.

We went to the same school and now I'm meeting Dylan for the first time and we're having a good chat and I'm like, you know what, is he more like his father or is he not? I'm like, there's so many connections that we've had that we've built over time that makes this conversation far more interesting than a conversation with an AI, right? The same thing applies with content. And maybe down the road we have a generation that probably enjoy the conversation with AI more than humans for their own reasons. We might get there, right? We'll see, we know the cycle, right? But eventually all I'm saying is,

Everyone is going to have access to these LLMs and they're able to generate content. The content that is going to win is a content that has a unique point of view, unique data points, something that makes it really stand out. Because the middle is going to be increased. We're have a lot of garbage in the middle and you're only going to win in the extremes. You're going to win with the best content or you're going to win because you have the, essentially like the efficiency or the highest productivity. So productivity is going to be the arbitrage or the quality is going to be the arbitrage.

Everything in the middle is gonna be AI garbage that no one pays attention because there's gonna be a lot of it and our attention is is also limited and attention is going to Creators and super authentic very unique I think there are some trends in design right now that the more ugly the product the better Are you guys have you guys notice how many ugly products were like there's so many like this well-designed perfect aesthetics products are not selling as much as these ugly earthy unique products and that's because humans are reacting to

this overly engineered, overly generated, and that's a human also nature. So we will evolve in that side. That's my expectations to her.

Dylan Pathirana (40:17.396)
I want to go back to you were mentioning, no AI search is going to be fundamentally different because it's going to rely on all of the information that's out there.

Does that fundamentally change what's going to happen in the future? Because if I'm a business and my competitor is on the side writing bad things about my brand, that will change how AI search reads my brand, right? Because there's more information out there.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (40:48.43)
Of course it will, but it also will know that it's your competitor.

Dylan Pathirana (40:53.268)
Hmm. I guess so. Is there an ethical piece in this kind of revolution that you see?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (40:55.438)
It will also know that it's fake.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (41:00.63)
Yeah, I think we've seen it, you know, everyone said the same thing with, I don't know, like Google reviews or Yelp reviews, right? My competitor is giving me bad reviews. We're going to have, there's going to be bad actors with every tech league innovation. don't like to focus too much on the edge cases there and what does that mean for us? I think we're going to find the sort of like the poison and the cure and we're going to evolve there. But yes, it fundamentally changes how we digest.

and discover information and the foundation behind it also, is the underlining technology. The underlining technology is, think how we discover a brand right now, a lot of it is Facebook, it's search or meta or you hear them on a podcast. That is not gonna all change all of sudden, but how we engage with the web. think Google for far too long became this search bar. You find information.

and you click on something. So it became the world's first biggest referral engine. And there's a lot of industries that are built around it. Well, that referral engine right now is going to be an answer engine. People like searching less and getting answers more. And guess what? When these answers are highly relevant, personalized, can have a conversation with, it knows me more than all of these other generic blue links, even better. Are we going to build values on top of this? Are we going to build ads on top of this?

Absolutely. Maybe the future of ads will be that wouldn't even know that it's an ad because now we have the context that we're able to really it doesn't have to be this loud blue link. There might be a regulatory problem there. But all I'm saying that we have the technical abilities right now to do far more than we're able to do previously. And that changes a lot. What I always encourage our partners and to do is to like experiment use

and see where they can grow, how they can sort of upscale their team. But more importantly, back to AI search and LLMs, it's your story is being told there, go and own your narrative. Someone else is telling your story to all of your consumer. And your consumers are, if you're in a business where your consumers are using these tools, which again, we saw talking about billions right now, you're likely are, you need to make sure that you're aware of what's happening there.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (43:25.986)
And by the way, asking Chad Gbt about your brand does not equal figuring that out. There's two problems there. One problem is called memory. I asked Chad Gbt the other day, what are the best growth marketing agencies in the world? And it says, of course it's no good. Mustafa, you're the CEO. That's memory and alignment. There's just research that came out of Anthropic, literally like in April 3rd. And it talked about how LLMs lie.

Dylan Pathirana (43:41.811)
You

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (43:54.188)
nearly 75 % of the time. It's to want to tell you what you want to hear. So you can't track it that all of these sort of, me just build a GPT and see how I can ask multiple times. You have to do an observability layer, a full technology that is actually able to prompt at a scale, use synthetic data and do like build an actual technology that observe and figure out the faithfulness and figure out a bunch of other things to get a sense of how we truly, these LLMs are telling you stories today.

Measure your visibility index, measure your sentiment index, measure everything around your brand and the ranking and everything else in between.

Dylan Pathirana (44:32.8)
And so we've kind of dodged around it a little bit, but I want to understand exactly what Goody is. Is it a product that people can sign up for? yeah, tell us a bit more about it.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (44:44.75)
Sure. So Goody is a brand management, we call it AI brand management, and answer engine optimization platform. Brand management is going to change in the future, and we believe that LLMs are going to be the gatekeepers of information on the web. We are able to observe, monitor, analyze, optimize your brand visibility and performance across all of these surfaces.

and track all the way from an impression to an action and a conversion and attribute it accordingly. Identify the opportunities that you can actually write for and even help you. We have Asians that can help you write the content, optimize for the content, identify the gaps, technical gaps and non-technical gaps, and optimize it on your website. Even do an outreach to citations and sites and getting you listed on these sites.

in an automated way. All of that is highly automated agents, multi-agent system. And again, I think we built one of the most powerful observability technology in the space. So we're able to know exactly where you stand and stack against competition, or even to play with the data and see how you're perceived by these LLMs and what action to take in order to improve that visibility.

Dylan Pathirana (46:01.696)
fascinating. And so it seems like a lot about data driven. And in order to, to, you know, make good decisions, need to be data driven. And we spoke a lot about, you know, having measurable data as well. How important is experimentation, but then also the analysis of the postmortem of that experimentation?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (46:27.106)
I think we actually have a whole function for experimentation within Goody where you're able to see the impact of a variable A versus variable B, and particularly as it relates to the referral sources they're optimizing for. I think it's important, and experimentation is going to be even more important, but I think we're going to be outsourcing a lot of that to the LLMs. The LLM is able to figure out variation A or variation B is actually better and do the probability there and figure out the statistical significance and take an action.

So even A-B testing and multi-variant testing is evolving in that direction. Unless you want a human in the loop and you want someone to help you get the learning there. But these LLMs are able to do this, synthesize the information and learning for us and bring it back to us. So we shouldn't be doing what an LLM can do for us. I always tell my team that, don't do what an LLM can do for you. As good, just don't do it, because it's a waste of your time now. Just figure out where else you can be good that actually enables you to manage.

and curate and orchestrate all of these agents and systems in a lot more effective ways.

Dylan Pathirana (47:34.836)
And on that note, like, it seems like AI is taking up a lot of the monotonous tasks and the tasks which are very more analytical. What skills should people be focusing on now that we have, we're in this AI age where we can be supported by AI. What do you think are the core skills that AI can't replace?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (47:57.262)
I think it's really like there's something about being a system thinker and a problem solver. And I think these are a little vague, but I'm going to break it down a little bit. I actually just wrote a post on building AI native teams earlier in the year. And it's really what it means to build an AI native team and the rise of go-to-market engineers or 10x marketers. So we have this concept in engineering, 10x engineer.

There is now 10x marketers just because they're enabled this technology and systems to be 10x version of themselves, right? So you will see a lot of the trends on, you people want to hire content engineer, go to market engineers. They're essentially like people that are able to orchestrate a set of systems and multi-agents to get out there and work in their behalf to execute. And they're able to orchestrate the strategy that are going to execute and use them to have this sort of productivity arbitrage to get out there and win. And that's going to be,

Really, think that's, I don't think it's just the future that's happening today. have team people in my team and we're advising other companies that have this. And, and again, I think it's, it's, it's, it's already happening. Right. And those are, you know, you can say 10 X, you can maybe you have two X, three X 10 X is just arbitrary here. Maybe 11 X. don't know. But generally the, the arbitrage used to be on attention and the future of arbitrage is productivity. And that's what AI offers. Social media gave us attention arbitrage.

AI gives us productivity arbitrage.

Dylan Pathirana (49:27.04)
So this is very technical for me. know Dylan is really enjoying it, but it absolutely makes sense. know, as I said, scary, but same time, it's very exciting, right? Like, you know, the future. Yeah, sure. Because, you know, I mean, maybe I'm much older than you guys and thinking someone... Dance floor, that's a different story. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean...

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (49:37.806)
Why is it scary to you, Jam? Like I'm very clear. Let's unpack this a little bit more. I'm going to turn that back to you.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (49:48.066)
You're not, I've seen you in the... I don't know what to Okay, yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (49:56.912)
someone else controlling, you know, there's a lot of, I mean, nowadays, you know, I'm a marketing guy, I love marketing, right? So I, I sell my stuff face to face, I go and talk to and build that relationship. But what we are talking here, there's so many, I won't be able to do that anymore. You know, there's my profile controlled by

someone else like you know or many other factors. The loss of control. Yeah so I'm losing control scares me.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (50:31.064)
I think it's true. think that it's scary too. I we have two options, like, you know, join the dance or be scared of it. I think it's scary too. I mean, it's scary to me and I almost called my company baddie, not gooddie. But it's, no, on this, but a serious note there. think it's scary because it's, brands have lost control a while back though, Jam. It's like brands are no longer in control of their narratives and it's been the case for a while. I think brands are...

Dylan Pathirana (50:43.04)
You

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (50:59.616)
are strategically at least, like from a strategy perspective, you used to like have this sort of old school, you know, MBA educated typically marketers that I think orchestrating strategy, the Cutler or whatever the marketing professors that like taught, you know, PNG strategy style, right? And where you're in actual control and you say something and distribute it to people and people love it or don't. And I think what is happening right now, there is distribution is fragmented.

Dylan Pathirana (51:12.894)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (51:29.046)
and attention is ready. People are overloaded with content. There's so much noise. think there's also brands are no longer just throwing things at people. They are strategically taking parts and participating in the conversation. This is why you will see brands in the DMs a lot of the time. This is why you'll see brands collaborating and partnering rather than actually hiring a creator. They were partner.

uh... no one wants to hear from a brand people want to hear from humans people are highly allergic to hearing from these brands and if you want human people wants connection to what you do jam has not changed i think your ability to sell and build connection is actually getting increasing value building communities uh... uh... you know having we're seeing a rise of these in person events and running clubs and and people want to build communities in coffee shops

That is also the contrast of what's happening in the AI world, which is also beautiful. So humans are evolving and our approach and cultures is evolving. But it's important that you really combine the two and understand the shift that is happening here and the shift that is happening there and what it means to build a brand today. to your point, distribution has changed. Attention also has changed. And what it means to build a brand today, it actually means to some part losing control and strategically participating and taking part in the conversation.

and let your brand shine through others and the communities that you build and the relationship that you build and not just what you hold the mic and keep throwing at people because whether that's through ads, interruptive stuff or interruptive outbound, don't just, you know, try to be nice and get involved and plug into the culture and community. And I can also like zoom out and tell you how some brands are doing it that we might not even realize why we love them, but they're engineering that in such a good way.

Dylan Pathirana (53:19.136)
Yeah. So that's, that's amazing. mean, that's the exciting part, right? So tell me if someone's starting a business and what would be your advice, right? You know, I mean, say for example, let's use the example, just us, right? We, we, we, this is our 50 plus episode that we are doing it and we loving it. We want to continue to do this. And then we want to make sure that it's actually impacting.

Because the whole purpose of starting this podcast, it's about creating that impact. So say we record a podcast with you and we share that and a thousand people is going to listen to it. So the impact is much higher. So how can we grow this podcast?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (54:08.942)
This podcast? Ooh, well, I think you made one mistake there. You're hosting me. You need to find more interesting. I don't know if you can. You're starting with a deficit there. So I think I obviously don't have the global cache to bring you much here. I think in the content space, right, generally, the way you can grow is...

Dylan Pathirana (54:15.456)
You

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (54:34.292)
Today, there's so much content, there's so many podcasts. I think the biggest winners of podcast space, who are the biggest winners? I think it's the Mike's companies. Yeah, it's a hot take. Mike's companies, companies that sell mics are the ones that probably are winning the podcast game more than anyone. Those are the number. I'm part ironic, but part true. There's more podcasts in the world than...

Dylan Pathirana (54:41.728)
Steven Bartlett. wow, that's a hot take, yeah.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (55:03.948)
I don't know if we should have or we shouldn't, it's differentiation is going to have to be the name of the game. Back in the day, it was just showing up on TikTok or YouTube with just because there was already like a pull for this content and this format. A lot of these formats grow and a lot of people came on the back of that promise. The promise that if I turn the podcast on, it's going to grow. But I think what they realized that things have changed the past three years.

It's seeing a mic on a screen. It used to make people stop. Now it makes people just scroll up and they don't want to see it anymore. Something has changed. So what does it mean to run a podcast today? I think what I would recommend, if I can give you a few suggestions, just more differentiation around the formats, the creators and type of guest. Go deep, be niche-y, focus on what exactly you're going to be doing that is different from everybody else and why it's unique.

try to win a few people first before you trying to be the podcast for everything, everyone in the world. So knowing who you're talking to and how you can stay true to that is important. I think the formatting and the how you cut the video, I think is a big factor, but also the distribution network like, you know, YouTube shorts and TikTok and reels are more important now than the just putting the long version on YouTube. So you need to play with these two. What is your core and what is your distribution mechanism outside of that core?

So you need to make sure that you do some dynamic evidence for YouTube, for TikTok, it has to be more authentic, for Instagram, it's more sort of, like, more somewhere between dynamic YouTube shorts and TikTok. And the last thing I would say is, it's just the focus on the community aspect of it. I think you want to make sure that you're getting like a thousand people to religiously listen first and enjoy this and...

hone in the product. Like I want to make sure that I can obsess over the product before you obsess over distribution because you distribution is a void you can get lost into it easily. So when before you get into that void and just make sure that you hone in your craft your focus and then keep on doing it consistency and would lead to compounding growth. So that's that's my my long extended answer.

Dylan Pathirana (57:21.204)
No, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That's really valuable information. I suppose Mustafa, what's next for you?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (57:30.336)
I think I'm super hyper focused on the change that is happening in the marketing world and how AI is going to change the sort of technology that we're using today and how that what it means for the future of brands and marketing and brand discovery and brand management. So so goody has is is is my focused obviously so is no good but goody is is my focus on the technology shift that is happening in that space. And again we hiring we're we're

adding more more brands that are excited about this and believe in this change and shift. And I'm super excited about it. That's what keeps me like, you I don't want to say up at night, but that keeps me excited, keeps me engaged. And again, I'm super wired by solving this mystery now.

Dylan Pathirana (58:17.332)
looking back on your journey that we've discussed today, do you feel successful given that your definition was happiness, the freedom and trying to make impact?

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (58:24.672)
I'm now barely scratching the surface. I'm trying still figuring it out and I'm proud of what I've achieved in the journey and super satisfied, but I think I don't consider myself successful. think successful is a big word and but yes, to some to others, it might be successful, but to me and I think I'm happy and focused on the impact and and maybe when I feel like there's more of that impact out there.

I would feel maybe that word I'll feel more successful but for now I'm not.

Dylan Pathirana (58:58.816)
Well, Mustafa, we could talk, I think all day about AI and the future. Fascinating. It's been a fascinating topic. cautious of your time and throughout our discussion, I've been jotting down a few traits, which I think have built the incredible life and I would say quite a successful life from the outside. And I'd like to share them with you. The first one is I think you're very visionary. And what I mean by that is you're looking ahead of the curve.

You you could have stayed with just regular SEO and trying to do things in the now, but you're kind of looking to where the ball's going and not where it is right now and trying to build for the future. And I think that's a really important thing because you might not be getting immediate success now, but it's, it's a short term pain for that kind of long-term game. The next one is you're really process driven and really curious as well. And I think that curiosity has taken you down some

different avenues and rabbit holes. But during that time, you've really been able to learn really deeply. And that curiosity always like, makes you want to learn and want to understand the customer and their needs as well. And I think that's really important, especially in the industry that you're in. The next one is value driven. And I think that came from when you were speaking about culture and

you're really aligned with your own values and the values of the company. And even if your customers aren't aligned to those values, you're okay to turn them away. And I think that's, that's very special. I don't think many, many businesses would do the same thing. I think having that real deep value set allows you to make decisions based on those values and really pushes you towards where you truly want to go.

And then the last one is, think it links to curiosity, but you're clearly a very deep learner. We've delved really deep into AI, into all of these different topics. And it's very clear that you understand the information and you can communicate it very, very well. So really, really appreciate your time today. And this conversation has been very informative and I can't wait to share it. And also Mustafa, just to add to what Dylan was saying, what I've

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:01:14.552)
Thank you guys.

Dylan Pathirana (01:01:18.822)
notice having this conversation, you're a real like a logical thinker, but also you have that creativity in in behind, right? So it's not just, you know, sometimes you have a logical thinkers, not very creative, but you are in between. And you know, you you have that magic. You can think logically, same time also you can be creative, which is a special skill set that you have, which is amazing. And yeah, so

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:01:47.502)
Thank you. You guys are very generous. Very generous with these statements. I feel like I'm disadvantage. I wish we could do a podcast where I ask you guys these questions. And I know you have an incredible journey as well. And Jemma, obviously, I know your journey a little bit to have spending time together. But I would love to learn also about Dylan. he's been asking really thoughtful questions. And he wanted to nerd out about these things. I don't even know his background. I feel like I want to turn that back to you.

Dylan Pathirana (01:01:49.568)
No.

Dylan Pathirana (01:01:58.784)
you

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:02:17.476)
But tell me if that misses up your format, but that's how I feel right now.

Dylan Pathirana (01:02:21.546)
Well, we'll have to do a follow up conversation. think, cause yeah, it was very insightful conversation. Maybe next time you're over this way, we'll, catch up or if we're in New York, we'll, we'll, we'll catch up with you.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:02:31.438)
Absolutely. Hopefully we can convince you guys to come to New York soon. But yes, when I'm down under, I'll let you know for sure. Thank you guys. Thanks for having me.

Dylan Pathirana (01:02:37.068)
Love to. Yeah. Well, Mustafa, thank you so much for this conversation. And if our listeners have gotten something from this conversation, it would mean a lot if you could subscribe or follow us on whichever platform you're listening to this on right now. And you can see all of our inspiring conversations over on our website, the quest for success podcast.com. And with that, we'll catch you guys in the next episode. Thanks for listening.

Hey, thanks Mustafa. Thank you. was awesome. By the way, Dylan is a renewable energy engineer. His background.

Mostafa ElBermawy / Goodie AI (01:03:06.51)
We should.