Episode 54: Humor Writing

In this episode of the Watchung Booksellers Podcast, writers Ian Frazier and Cora Frazier discuss the art of writing humor and the family stories they mine for comedy. 

Ian Frazier is the author of Travels in Siberia, Great Plains, On the Rez, Lamentations of the Father and Coyote V. Acme, among other works, all published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux. His latest work, Paradise Bronx: The Life and Times of New York's Greatest Borough, is his magnum opus: a love song to New York City’s most heterogeneous and alive borough. He graduated from Harvard University and is a frequent contributor to The New Yorker. He lives in Montclair, New Jersey.

Cora Frazier is a writer of humor and fiction based in Brooklyn. Her work has appeared in The New Yorker, Vol. 1 Brooklyn, McSweeney’s, The New York Times, n+1, and Saturday Night Live. She is the co-creator and writer of the psychological thriller and Audible Original I Think You’re Projecting.

Cora is also a teacher and speaker. She has taught first-year writing, literature, and journalism at the City University of New York and creative writing at Rutgers University and New York University. She has given talks on humor writing at the University of Colorado Boulder and the Amsterdam Writing Workshops.

Resources:

Harvard Lampoon

JIm Downey 

Jack Handey

Patricia Marx

Nightlight: A Twilight Parody by The Harvard Lampoon 

Will Rogers Quotes 

William Trevor 

Girl by Jamaica Kincaid 

George Trow 

Cora's Harvard Gazette piece 

Alan Dershowitz

Ian's Mi Chiamo Stan piece

Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

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The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, NJ.

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.

Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!

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Transcript

Kathryn: Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Watching Booksellers podcast, where we bring you conversations from our bookstore's, vast community of book professionals who talk about what they do for the love of books. Thanks for joining us. I'm Catherine, and I'm here with my co-producer, Marni. Hey, Marni. Hey there.

Kathryn: And today we are talking about humor writing. 

Marni: That's right. Our guests today are humor writers. Ian Frazier, a longtime New Yorker contributor and friend of the store, and his daughter, Cora Frazier, who is also a contributor to the New Yorker, and who grew up in Montclair. 

Kathryn: I do think this is our first discussion from a family. Um, I guess not counting Maddie and Margo, but they weren't talking about writing.

Kathryn: So they had a great chat and it was just lovely to have them both here in the store. before we get to their conversation, Marni, do you have any books you wanna recommend?

Marni: I do.

Marni: I'm reading the Return by Hasan Matar.

Marni: It's a, uh, 2016 memoir and it is on the New York Times Best 100 books of the 21st century. And it is our next pick, , for our book club. So if you want details and you wanna register for that, , you can do so on our website. How about you, Katherine Wood? Are you reading? 

Kathryn: Uh, I just got a galley of Ghost Town by Tom Perada.

Kathryn: , It's coming out in April. And, , Tom Perada is, if you don't recall, he's the author of Election and Little Children and The Leftovers. Um, and this is, set in the seventies, , in the suburbs of New Jersey. As are many of his things and, um, I'm really excited to dig into it and, uh, we're hoping to have Tom on the podcast in a little while.

Kathryn: So, um, I kind of wanna get ahead of that, but I'm excited. 

Marni: Yeah. I wanna read that after you. I'll pass it on. Thank you. Okay. Let's introduce our, uh, guests and get on with the conversation. Ian Frazier is the author of Travels in Siberia, , great Plains on the Res, Lamentations of the Father and Coyote versus Acme, among other works, . All published by FSG, his latest work, paradise Bronx. The Life and Times of New York's greatest borough is his magnum Opus, a love song to New York City's most heterogeneous and alive borough.

Marni: He graduated from Harvard University and is a frequent contributor to the New Yorker. He lives in Montclair, New 

Kathryn: Jersey. And with him is his daughter, Cora Frazier. Cora is a writer of humor and fiction based in Brooklyn. Her work has appeared in the New Yorker, volume One, Brooklyn McSweeney's, the New York Times n plus one, and Saturday Night Live.

Kathryn: She's the co-creator and writer of the Psychological Thriller and Audible original, I think your projecting. Cora is also a teacher and speaker. She's taught first year writing literature and journalism at the City, university of New York, and creative writing at Rutgers University and New York University.

Kathryn: She's given talks on humor writing at the University of Colorado Boulder, and the Amsterdam writing workshops. 

Marni: Enjoy the conversation and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store.

ian: Okay, so we're at the Kids' Room of Watchung books, uh, in Wung Plaza, Montclair, New Jersey, and, uh, I'm Ian Frazier. , I write humor and other longer works of nonfiction. And I'm with my daughter, Cora Frazier, who writes Humor and Podcasts. Other, fiction. So Cora has come out from Bedford Stuyvesant, where she lives with her husband and son.

ian: Um, Oscar, my first grandchild, and she has kindly come out here to record this with me, uh, , 

cora: yes. Well, thank you so much for having us. , It's nice to be back in Montclair. I'm a graduate of Montclair High School, um, and it's nice to, to be close by so we can come out and see you. 

ian: Yeah, so, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about humor and we're gonna talk about writing it. I sort of wanted to start out by saying how funny. You were as a kid and how funny Thomas was. Thomas is our son, uh, and um, I thought of one anecdote or one thing that seemed really significant to me.

ian: We lived in Missoula for a long time. We've lived here. 29 years. Uh, my wife, uh, Jacqueline Carey and I have lived here 29 years. Uh, she is also a writer. She's a novelist and short story writer. And, um, we lived in Missoula, Montana for like, , four or five years when Core was in elementary school.

ian: And I remember sitting around with the people from the University of Montana, MFA. Writing, , school. And these are some very witty and quick and funny people. And somehow the question came up, um, if you could ask Dracula one question, what would you ask him? Do you remember this? 

cora: Yeah. 

ian: And Cora said, and all the grownups are coming up with these questions and Cora, who's like eight years old, said.

ian: If I could ask Dracula just one question, I would ask him, who is his doctor? And I thought, what an ingenious, out of nowhere. Brilliant question. And at that moment, I think I, I thought to, I, I thought she will be a writer and she will be a humor writer, maybe. Mm-hmm. Because that's a premise. Mm-hmm. You know?

cora: True. Yeah. Like, 

ian: . Dracula's doctor. And then you made things for me when I was, uh, you know, on my birthday and I was unable to find them. I looked for them in my files. But, uh, we had this concept that the band Aerosmith had been around for like 5,000 years. 'cause they kept reissuing things, uhhuh like that you never even knew Aerosmith had recorded way back when.

ian: Uh, and you did an album. Cover for me mm-hmm. Of the log album. That was like something from like before the stone Age when it was still just wood, uh, 

cora: right. Yeah. OG Aerosmith. Yeah. 

ian: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and another time you did , an FBI file for me. Mm-hmm. I did a complete FBI file with all the papers they had on me.

ian: And you know, you're like eight, nine years old so. So, yeah. How did, I mean, how did you get into writing humor? 

cora: Well, I, I tried to resist it, 

ian: and that's true. I 

cora: did not, I did not wanna be a writer. Um, I think.

cora: You're a live mom's life. It was just sort of incomprehensible to me. And, um, 

ian: well, I always thought that, that the way you looked at, at the, at a writing career was if these idiots could do it. 

cora: Oh, no, I mean, but just this sort of like the vicissitudes I, I, yeah. I was very aware of or, you know, moving or just Right.

cora: Just stuff like I and I, um, I really loved in. High school. I really loved mock trial and debate. 

ian: Oh, we have to mention what, how you did it, how Montclair did in mock trial. Oh, because you won the state in mock trial? No, we mock, mock won the state champions. I mean, yeah, George Burroughs in year 

cora: is just a magic worker.

cora: Um, yeah, I, he's just a, a wonderful man. Um. Shout out to George Burrows. Oh. And to Mr. McDonough too. And Mr. McDonough. So great. Yeah. We have some, I mean, just a fantastic program at Montclair High School, , which I'm so grateful for and I think. If I could have done mock trial professionally, I probably would've, um, mock trial.

cora: You know, it's not really a thing mock trial, unfortunately, but it should be though. Yeah. Yeah. Um, being a lawyer is a little different. Yeah. Um, but, but I realized as I got older, I realized that the part I liked the best was writing. 'cause I, I did the closing statement and I, and that was my favorite part, was writing the closing statement.

cora: Right. And so I thought, okay, well. I'll, okay. I'll be a speech writer. So it's not, I'm not gonna do what my parents are doing because , I'm gonna be a speech writer. That's different, you know? Yeah. And then when I went to college, um, you had told me you said, go to a intro meeting for the Lampoon and just check it out.

cora: , And I just was like, completely, . Transfixed and, you know, just decided that I wanted to focus on that. And I remember you told me, um, you said, I think you went to the Lampoon because you were homesick, which is something I don't remember saying that, but I, I just, I always remember that you went there 'cause you were homesick and I think that there, there's some truth to that.

ian: Well, to, to kind of go back to the origin of how I happened. Yeah. To know about the Lampoon, I'm from Ohio. And in my high school there was a really brilliant guy, four years older than I, who went to Harvard. Mm-hmm. And his name was David McClellan and he did cartoons for the Lampoon and he did like the most famous, , cover ever of the Harvard Lampoon.

ian: And, um. I hero worship David McClellan. Mm-hmm. And so when I went to Harvard, um, that was the first place I went. Mm-hmm. I went to the Lampoon, knocked on the door and said this. And the Lampoon is a building, it's a, a kind of. Uh, I guess Dutch Castle miniature version. Yes. 

cora: Mock, Flemish Castle.

cora: Mock 

ian: Flemish. Okay. Yes. It's a beautiful building. Mm-hmm. And I went there, introduced myself, and I became a member of the Lampoon my freshman year. Mm-hmm. And so, I did the Lampoon, uh, throughout college and I did nothing else. Yeah. I have no, I barely did anything else. I have no college education, but I did focus on that and, uh.

ian: Uh, we did a parody of Cosmopolitan Magazine my senior year, uh, and, I did a lot of it, and the other main person who did it was, uh, Jim Downey, who is now very famous comedy writer and actor. Um, but so I had been on the Lampoon and when we visited, we came back and were visiting our friends and.

ian: I took you to the Lampoon building. Mm-hmm. And you were, again, you were a little kid and the guy there, as I remember it, the undergraduate who happened to be there mm-hmm. Said, well, don't let her go upstairs. We're not letting her upstairs to see the castle. To see the great Hall upstairs, because maybe she'll be a member someday.

cora: Mm-hmm. 

ian: And I think that registered with you 

cora: it, yeah. Yeah. 'cause I just hung out. Undergraduates didn't talk to me, but I just hung out. In the library while you walked around, because supposedly, you know, not supposed to be a member. If you've seen the building, if you've seen the Yeah. The whole building.

cora: Yeah. 

ian: But, , the other, for me, kind of touching thing about it is when I was a junior in college, they. Debated, should we admit women? And before that it had been all guys. It had been a male only organization and it was really like old school stuff and not stuffy because there were funny people there sometimes.

ian: But it was an old school, like men's club. 

cora: Mm-hmm. 

ian: And uh, I remember. That I was the principal agitator for admitting women, but then there's like 10 other guys that say the same thing. So I know it's heroes. Heroes. It's like, it's like the number of people who, who say they danced with Martha Graham.

ian: There's thousands. They can't have been that many. But uh, but anyway, so we  did decide. To do it. And we admitted, uh, the first woman elected was Patty Marks. And, uh, she is still writing humor and, , is a good friend. Um, but anyway, at that time I can say it didn't occur to me that I was saying let my daughter on.

ian: Yeah. We should admit my daughter. 'cause she's gonna be really funny. I mean, that's, you know, I was what, 19 at the time, so, well, maybe 20, but a long time ago. So anyway, the Lampoon was of great importance. 

cora: Yeah. And I think that kind of male, , perspective has, uh, persisted on the magazine. Yeah. That was your experience.

cora: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it probably changes so much with every class. Um, but I think when I was, elected, it was a little bit, um. More. Yeah, just, just more, more guys who were writing at that time. Um, and I remember a big,  a big moment for me in humor writing was when you told me to focus on the moments where I would make someone else laugh and.

cora: I have very funny girl cousins who are my age and aunts, very funny aunts. Um, and we were at ho, we were at a holiday and I was telling a story about, um. Pet sitting, just like a, just a random story about pet sitting. This like kind of terrifying boxer that would stare me down when I went with Kim Ms.

cora: Kibble or, you know, so I was just telling this, this story and my, when my cousins were, were laughing a lot. And then when we left you said to me, um, you know, that that was funny. You were making your cousins laugh and I think it was really revelatory to me and just made me think so differently about, comedy.

cora: To think, wait,, I could imagine a different audience which isn't undergraduate men, which is maybe, you know, my cousins and, I think now there's so much more women in comedy and it's so much more diverse. I mean, even in just like the past 15 years I've been writing comedy is so much more diverse.

cora: But, um, just at that time like that, 'cause I just, I sort of thought that comedy was Jack Handy. Jack Handy, you know, who wrote for SNL? He did Deep Thoughts. Um, he is written a number of books, humor pieces. And I just thought that like that is comedy. And I think when you realize, oh no, that is Jack handy.

cora: That is his voice, right? That is his personality. And actually you are imitating him if you are writing in that voice. Voice. Well, it's hard not 

ian: to. I mean, you're imitating him. He's so, yeah. His voice is so strong. It's hard not to slide into it, but yeah, 

cora: totally. Totally. Um. Yeah. And so people are like doing deep thoughts or they're doing, and you know, Jack handy, , he described his voice as like a dangerous, ugh.

cora: I don't,

ian: like somebody who's mentally impaired, glad and dangerous. Glad yes. That was how Jack 

cora: Kennedy described it. 

ian: Yeah. 

cora: Yeah. But, you know, so, so that, but that's a specific type of comedy that he's doing and, and, um, that is hilarious.

cora: But to think, oh no, I could have a different voice that could be more authentic, that could be female, that could be maybe trying to make females laugh. Right. Trying to make people, I love my cousins laugh. Like that was so huge for me and Right. I think on the Lampoon we did a parody of nightlight.

cora: Well, the, the title was nightlight. We did a parody of Twilight. Um, my, my friend Courtney Bowman and I wrote this, this book, which was a parody and we were inspired by the Cosmopolitan parody, um, and by the Lord of the Rings parody. So the Lampoon has done a number of parodies over the years. But, so I think even the idea that you would choose a book like Twilight that had a kind of young female audience, right, to parody, right?

cora: Like that was also a little bit different, at least at that, at that moment. And then I think it was really influential when I graduated and thinking about the type of humor that I wanted to write, um, to think about like different audiences. 

ian: Right. Uh, and maybe for people who dunno, or I would imagine a lot of people know who Jack Handy is, but, um, Jack Handy writes , almost like.

ian: Poems. Mm-hmm. Uh, that are, that are really funny. And I was trying to describe Jack Handy. I was out in Columbus at the Thurber house giving a talk, , and I was trying to describe these jokes and I said, okay, here is a Jack Handy joke. The Crows were calling his name Thought Caw, and I didn't know if that would go over with an audience because you have to have the capital C.

cora: Right, okay. Yeah. You know, in, in Caw. 

ian: But it went over with that audience. Okay. Yeah. But anyway, that's just to kind of fill in on that, the, you know. Yeah. But that's such a powerful voice I know. It's also very much an internet voice. I mean, the thing Jack has to worry about Yeah. Is he gets totally, he gets ripped off all the time.

ian: Yeah. But because they, they're, they fit perfectly deep thoughts, but he also writes longer pieces and, and very funny books. But Yeah. But anyway, to, to go back to that moment with your, your cousins. Um, the other thing that I was. Trying to point out is that you need a double consciousness. I mean, everybody in America I think has one kind of double consciousness or another.

ian: Some people much more double than others. But if you're saying, if you're being funny, you get into it and you're just going along and doing it and people are laughing, the double consciousness is when you step back and you say, what did I just say that was funny to yourself? Mm-hmm. And you remember it.

ian: Mm-hmm. And that takes. That's hard. 

cora: Yeah. 

ian: That is like, that's the kind of abstraction that professional people have. That's, you know, like when a doctor can be talking to you like on a social occasion and see blah, blah, blah, and look at you and go, oh my God, that guy has whatever. You know, that the doctor steps back and sees things and so

ian: there are funny writers who very much depend on having somebody else do that. So that they'll say, what did I just say that was funny? And I used to do that with your mother when? Mm-hmm. All the time. I would say, 

cora: yeah. 

ian: Oh God, I said something funny at that party. What was it? And she would say, I'm not remembering it.

ian: I'm not remembering your funny lines. You have to remember them yourself. And that's. That's what being a humor writer is. 

cora: And I think this is a quote of Jim Downey's, but when you're writing comedy, you're always an underdog. 

ian: I have never heard that 

cora: one. Is that, oh, I thought I got it from you. Or maybe that, maybe that's me.

cora: Maybe that's me. And I just attribute all comedy thoughts to Jim Downey. But um, yeah, you're, you're always an underdog. And I think to really do it, to really , be a comedy writer and do hard comedy that you. It's almost like a sickness. Like you, you, 

cora: I totally agree. A hundred percent. And, and if you're, 

cora: and if you're not scared, like you're, you're probably not gonna be that funny.

cora: Like, I think it's because it's so much about surprise. Mm-hmm. And the unexpected. Mm-hmm. And so the second that you're resting on your laurels, you're probably not going to be. , Surprising people. Right. That's, you know, that's a good point. And so you really have to keep changing.

cora: 'cause I, I do think there's a certain amount of pleasure in familiarity with comedy, but that has diminishing returns. , I mean, I think it's the challenge of an SSNL is just. You know, you have a bit that works for so long, and then you like, you need new people, you need new blood.

cora: Right. You know? 

ian: Right. 

cora: It's, it's a hustle. It's a real hustle. 

cora: I

ian: think also that if you're writing humor, you have a mind that does that, so it's certainly, in my case, if I'm in any situation, I will think of 10 inappropriate things to say. Is that Scott Dad? What? That's horrible. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's true.

ian: It's like my mind, it's intrusive thoughts is like the tech, the, the, the technical term for things. But I'll just think of things like, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. Don't say that. And I think that a lot, I, I mean, I know people that don't filter, you know, I know people that just say whatever it is and, and, uh.

ian: Somebody asked me, um, they were doing a New Yorker, , event, and they asked me what they should call it. And you know, there were like 40, I mean there were a lot of humor writers that would be participating. And I said, well, why don't, and I was just one of 40 and I

ian: I thought of saying, why don't you call it an evening with the end Frazier and friends, right? Mm-hmm. And then I thought, that's a jerky thing. Don't say that. And they didn't say it. Yeah. And when they announced it, another. Humor writer had thought of that exact title, had told them and they had taken it.

cora: Oh, and 

ian: I, I thought I'm, I'm glad I had the restraint because I don't think it's a very funny thing to say, but that a lot. I think it's funny. It's pretty funny. Okay. 

cora: I mean, I glad in 

ian: retrospect, maybe I, no, 

cora: but I mean maybe less generous, you know, for the marketing. Well, you don't wanna say 

ian: something that somebody else is going to say.

ian: Oh, true. If you can avoid it. True. Yeah. 

cora: There. Yeah, there's definitely, I, I find that with my comedy, that there's like, maybe there's 10 joke or I don't know, that I wish there were 10 jokes. There's, there's maybe like five jokes. I'm like, okay, that's the bad version. That's the bad version. That's the bad version that the Okay.

cora: Six joke. Okay. That's the good version, right? Yeah. 

ian: I mean, but, but the mind will just do that and it is in a way just like. Uh, will Rogers said, never miss a good opportunity to shut up. 

cora: Mm-hmm. 

ian: Yeah. And, uh, will Rogers was really funny. Um, but you came out of the Lampoon, , and it wasn't too long before you were publishing mm-hmm.

ian: Humor pieces in the New Yorker, and I remember, uh. I was fishing with David Remnick, who's the editor, and he said to me on the, on that trip, oh, I saw a piece by Cora. We didn't take it, but it was really good. And you know, he was very like, this is gonna work. And then very soon after you did, you did your first piece, which I thought was, was a really brilliant piece.

ian: Can you describe that one? That was a, 

cora: um, yeah, it was, um, it was 

ian: taken from a quote. 

cora: Well, I felt, I mean, I, I, I still feel this way, but I felt so much like I had  something to prove and that, that's the, the sickness element I, I think, is really apt here. Um, I, I have the sickness a little bit less now, but I just, I was looking everywhere and I think.

cora: You had suggested dad that I look at like the Daily News and, , publications for quotes that could inspire a humor piece. And I think this was a quote that was in AM New York , the subway paper back when they would hand it out. Yeah. Um, it was a quote about, . People being willing to divorce their spouse if they could avoid a commute.

ian: Um, it was a really funny and 

cora: yeah, just absurd, strange quote. And it was like the, it was a majority. Yeah. Yeah, the majority, yeah. Yeah. Um, and so it was a woman explaining, well, you know, to her husband, well, we're gonna get, you know, I'm divorcing you. But I'm, I'm gonna have a shorter commute. Um, yeah, so that was the piece.

ian: It was just this explanation like, yeah. You know, uh, and what about the kids? Look, that's up to you. I mean, you know. Yeah. Um, but um, yeah, I, when I started at the New Yorker, I published my first humor piece there 50 years ago. Wow. When I, you know, in, in mm-hmm. 75. And at that time, they did not indicate that it was a humor piece.

ian: Mm-hmm. Like now it says shouts and murmurs. Uh, they put it at the front after talk of the town, but they put it where they put short stories and sometimes there would be, I don't know, they ever had maybe three short stories, but they would often. Very often have two and they would be after the talk of the town, but before the longer reporting pieces in the magazine.

ian: Also, at that time, the magazine could be 200 some pages 'cause they had jillions of ads. But, so the, the humor piece had to be, uh, a piece of writing. There was nothing excusing, you know, so that if you wrote a humor piece and they published it, well, it would be there. But then the next piece would be by John Cheever, or the next piece would be by William Trevor.

ian: And so the humor piece had to sort of work also as a piece of writing. And, that was what I wanted to do and I did it. I kept trying to do it, and I think in 11 years I published maybe 12 pieces.

ian: And also I was just starting out, uh, and I didn't really know how to write, but uh, I was reading this interview with our very good friend, Jamaica Kincaid, uh, who they were talking about her famous piece "girl". 

cora: Mm-hmm. 

ian: And I remember, because I was writing here pieces, George Tro, who was another.

ian: New Yorker writer at that time, uh, was writing humor pieces and Jamaica just wrote this piece and it is a hilarious piece, girl, if you ever hear it read. But that was sort of like the, the genre was kind of pieces in the range of a thousand to 2,500 words that were. Funny, but also pieces of writing and Jamaica's piece has stood up as a great piece of writing maybe the most famous short piece of recent times.

ian: \ But that has changed that, that's not how they do it anymore. 

cora: Yeah, girl really follows this. Classic comedy structure. The, the repetition and the escalation. I mean, chiefly the repetition of the slut. You are so bent on becoming Right. Which, yeah. Which I think only appears three times.

cora: Although it, you know, it's, it's, it seems to appears, yeah. It's so a lot. Uh, it's just such an arresting phrase that it, it seems as if it appears much more often. But yeah, I think about what I'm doing in that, um, in that tradition, in the casual tradition that could be flash fiction or could be humor.

cora: And I did a flash fiction piece in the New Yorker flash fiction series, and I think a lot of people thought that, that it was a humor piece and in a way that I, I actually didn't write it that dissimilarly from the way that I. My humor, right? And I think there were kind of funny elements to it. 

ian: Yeah, I, um, the, the piece that I wrote, it ended up not appearing in the New Yorker because, for complicated reasons, but it was in the Atlantic, um, Lamentations of the father, which is, I think probably, you know, the best known peace of mind, um, is in the voice of, uh, the book of Leviticus from the Bible.

ian: Only . The speaker who I guess is God really is, is telling, is telling children things they can't do or, you know, , correcting children, and this is from when you and Thomas were little. And I would find myself saying things and think, what did I just say? And I remember you were sitting in the backseat in car seats or in Thomas was in a car seat and you were just in the seat.

ian: And I had put a bag of groceries in there and at the top of the bag of groceries was a loaf of bread. And you were both barefoot and you started rubbing your feet on, you know, 'cause it was fun to rub up against the bread. And I said, uh, don't rub your feet on bread. And I went back and wrote that down and pretty soon I had a whole long list of it.

ian: And it, it's so interesting to me that we're, that it's now sort of happening again in things that you say to your son. 

cora: Yes. Well, I mean, I sometimes I think. To go back to the beginning of the conversation that that's the, my true, the true origins of humor for me. Um, 'cause I remember, I mean, I've heard you read it so many times and I, I think it's funny every time, and I remember hearing you read it on Prairie Home Companion and we listened on the radio

cora: and we heard just this massive audience laughing and Thomas and I were just, we're just prone on the floor, you know, just this delight. I mean, and I think especially 'cause it was things we had done, there was the things you actually had done that we had done. You know, there was this special connection to it.

cora: Um, but then now I find myself saying these similar things and I, I'm sure that. Parents, um, will, will identify with that. But just the most absurd things. Like I, I was on the phone with you dad, um, a few weeks ago, and I said to my son, um, no. We don't stand on top of the drinking fountain. You can't stand on top of the drinking fountain.

cora: I, you know, like, just, just stuff like that, you know? Like. why Yeah. 

ian: And I mean, you realize at some point somebody must have said that. I know. I said things like that to you. Yeah. Somebody must have said that to me, that these things that you have to do to socialize a child is, is you have to say, you know, you don't.

ian: Take your carrot stick and write with it on the table. 

cora: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

ian: We just don't do that. And that's part of, part of that piece. But I took Oscar over to, uh, Brookdale Park and we were at the drinking party. He wanted to climb up on the drinking pot. He, 

cora: yeah. He wants 

ian: to stand on top. He wants to have his foot in where the water is coming out.

ian: Yeah. And he's climbing and striving and so vexed. 'cause I keep pulling a No, you can't climb up on top of the drink. I 

cora: know. Yeah. He's, he's. Two. Um, yeah, but you know, it's, it's, it's similar to the bath, so it's like, it's maybe logical, you know, so he thinks, yeah, just put me up there. I, I just put me up there and I can bathe my toes.

cora: When I was really lovely. When I was looking at 

ian: this, the piece again, I saw there's a thing in there, you know, uh, do not drink of your own bath water. And then the next phrase is nor of bath water of any kind. And I remember that that comes from saying to you and Thomas, you don't drink your own bath water.

ian: And one of the other of you said, well, can you drink somebody else's bath water? I said, no, you can't drink bath water. Yeah. Simple as that. But um, in that piece, the other element is the biblical element and. I had spent how many years when you were little? Uh, both my parents had died and I had their papers and I was home at that time because you were little and it was just sort of chance.

ian: But I went through all these papers and a lot of people in my past, they had saved papers of their ancestors had been ministers. And so I ended up reading all these things that they had read, like, you know, and reading the Bible and kind of trying to inhabit the world that they lived in. And I'm talking, you know, early 20th century and then 19th century out in Ohio where they were.

ian: Associated with various churches in various small towns and how important that was to them. Like that they would go and if the sermon was less than an hour, they would feel kind of, well, you know, our minister isn't. Doing his job, but that because of those two voices.

ian: And one thing that you mentioned in that really great piece for, uh, that was for Harvard Magazine or 

cora: it was for the Harvard Gazette. The 

ian: Harvard Gazette, is that what you're looking at in humor is a combination of of voices? 

cora: Yes. And so, so for example, with that piece, you have . This biblical voice and, and I think I, I'm really glad that you're, you situated in the, this particular tradition because there's.

cora: The biblical voice can mean so many different things, you know, there, right. There's a lot of, and there's a lot of bad biblical voices out there. Yeah. Really bad for sure. But I, I think what the strength of yours is that it's very specific, it's very rooted in this like, you know, specific kind of old.

cora: Midwestern Protestant kind of tradition. And it's, it's 

ian: not just a general parody, it's a parody of a particular part of the Bible, the book of Leviticus, which has however many a hundred, 213 laws or something like that. And when you read the book of Leviticus, you think, wow. Is that, is that right?

ian: Because it'll say like, you can't eat creeping animals. That go on their belly, with the exception of, and then it says, you can eat the locust, you can eat locusts. Really? But that's Yeah. Accepted. Yeah. And, and then you can go to John the Baptist and the wilderness. And John the Baptist, it says he ate locusts and wild.

ian: So he's keeping kosher, you know? Mm-hmm. He's living out there, but he is eating bugs. And it seems like, but that, when you get into the specifics of what Leviticus says, it is very, very specific. Like, you can't eat weasel, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's like, but, but. 

cora: To me that reminds me so much of just this type of negotiation you have to do with a toddler.

cora: Yeah. Which is absolutely obs, you know, like you can, you can eat the locust, but not the wild honey. I mean, right. You know, I'm in a situation with my son where I'm like, okay, so you can. You can eat, you can have lunch while you're riding your scooter, but you have to wear a helmet. You know, like, like just try making these, um, these obs.

cora: Yeah. 

ian: Jamaica said a brilliant thing when her kids were little. She said, all children are Alan Dershowitz. 

cora: Yeah. 

ian: I mean, they will give you back an argument like 10 different ways, but, uh. 

cora: Well, I was thinking about this idea of the, the two different voices. Um, so I guess I was, I was starting to say this, but Lamentations is, um, this very specific biblical voice and then the voice of childhood absurdity.

cora: Um, but I was thinking of that when I reread one of my favorite pieces of yours, which is, uh, mic mo Stan. 

ian: Oh yeah. 

cora: Um, and that 

was, yeah, about, I mean, that was based on a real ad. I, yeah, I know that, that, like it said, you know, for, I think it was. Um, it was for some teach yourself a language course and it said, you know, uh, one day he's teaching himself Italian.

The next day he's going out with an Italian supermodel or something. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which just seems so absurd to me. So I took the guy who was learning the language and put him in like the Midwest. Yeah. And he was a farmer. Well, 

cora: that was the quote. The quote was. Um, you know, he, like he was a small town Midwestern boy.

cora: Oh, right.  She was an Italian supermodel. He would only have one chance to impress her. That's right. I already forgotten the quote. Yeah. So, you know, so the ad is creating this fantasy that you're going, you know, that you are gonna. You, you live on a farm and you're gonna have this chance encounter, and you're, and you're gonna meet the woman of your dreams.

cora: But, but you have to buy the software and you have to learn Italian. Right, right. Um, so yeah. So, it's such a, a, a good example of the two different voices. 'cause you have these two different vocabularies, right. Literally. Right, right, right. You know, because you're, explaining how to translate farm vocabulary, right.

cora: And. Model vocabulary right. In the, in the humor piece. Yeah. Um, which. Just creates the most hilarious combinations, like, um, you know, to hay, to manure, to accessorize, right? Like to sashay, to apply bag balls. 

ian: One of the senses was this stock. Tank deicer is, does it work or something? 

cora: Right. I 

ian: mean, and trying to come up with the Italian for stock tank deicer, 

cora: so you can explain to the supermodel right about your life, who's gonna be fascinating, 

ian: fascinating 

cora: about your farm 

ian: life.

ian: Yeah. I really like that piece you did about people going west, the diary of the people going west and all the stuff that happened to them. Just how incredibly wretched it kept getting even more and more wretched. You remember that one? 

cora: Yeah. Well, um, it was, it was a take on the idea of squad goals.

cora: That's right. Um, which, yeah. 

ian: And, and ended up eating some of the squad members I think, or. 

cora: God. I mean, I don't remember possibly, 

ian: but I thought as I read that, I thought, you know, there were some kind of hard scrabble moments in Montana when we lived there, and that I thought maybe that had Yeah. Influenced it.

ian: I 

cora: think that's true. I mean, I, I just associate Montana with imagination itself because we read so many books there. Right. And we did plays and, and things like that. And I don't know, we, it was a lot of, I think it's something kids don't have as much, but I had a lot of, a lot of empty summer days and Right.

cora: Long nights and, yeah. Yeah. 

ian: Well, I think we're getting up toward, the end, of this conversation, 

ian: uh, anything you wanted to read or did you have any

Kathryn: So, um, I have been reading Raymond Chandler, , because, my mom, uh, writes. Fiction and, and mysteries. And she got me a whole bunch of mysteries.

Kathryn: Yeah. Um, 'cause I just, I wasn't as familiar with mysteries, but I've been, my, my fiction podcasts have mystery elements. So she said, you, these are the books you need to read. So I've been reading Raymond Chandler and it's so interesting to me how, and I think that this happens, this has happened so much in my life that I often encounter the imitation before the original.

Kathryn: I know it happens over and over. So I'm actually reading Raymond Chandler and I'm like, oh my God, this is a Pi voice. God, that's so familiar. Like what? He's, what, who's he copying? Yeah. No, but it's, he's much more on the origin side of that voice. But I actually I think that Raymond Chandler is quite funny and I, but he's 

just a brilliant writer 

cora: and I have felt just completely, I, I don't like the PI voice in comedy. It's a very common thing to be like, really boring voice.

cora: I'm a hard boiled, like legs for days and I'm just like, ugh. Like, no. 'cause you just see it a lot, but I, I kind of understand, I understand it in that I think. That Raymond Chandler is so funny and just, I mean, like some of the metaphors are just so wacky. There was like something about a goat eating barbed wire and I was just like, what?

cora: And then also sometimes the metaphors are very funny. The figurative language is very funny. And it was, it was something like, um, that Marlo is at this, um, office building, uh, full of offices for lawyers. You wish the other guy had, you know, and I, and it's, it's just so brilliant. Yeah. And it's completely to changed my perspective on, um, if not the PI voice generally, at least it, it, I I understand why it's so seductive, because he does it so much.

cora: Oh, it 

ian: is such a seductive voice. I, that is such an interesting notion about first encountering something as parody. Yeah. And when I was a senior in college, uh. Monty Python first kind of hit the scene, and one of the, one of the skits in Monty Python was the summarized Proust contest. And Michael Palin is trying to summarize all of Proust and he starts out and goes, okay, right, you've got Swan, right and Swan is and like Ding.

ian: And he doesn't even get like a 10th of the way into Swan's Way, the first volume. And I thought, I didn't ever basically even heard a Proust and I thought, yeah, what is this summarized Proust. So I read all of Proust, I then went and got Proust and spent. However many years and read Yeah. However many volumes.

ian: I think there's eight or nine volumes. Yeah. And, there are a lot of things. That you come to like, like in in Monty Python, there's a moment where if you say mattress to somebody, they go nuts and you have to do blah to get 'em to stop going nuts. And what you had to do was jump and they said, what?

ian: We just stop this. We must jump in the fish tank and sing. And they jumped in the fish tank and they began to sing Jerusalem. Uh, when I can't sing, but it's the most beautiful hymn and I never heard it. And I then went and found Jerusalem, the hymn, and it's just like, I, it just blows me away. And then I read the Blake poem Jerusalem, and, but I came to it by way of just being silly about it.

ian: So it's, yeah, kind of. It, it's, it's, it's a funny, uh, it's a funny thing. 

cora: Yeah, I almost want to, um, curate the order. I mean, maybe this is the teacher in me, but say like, no. Okay. We, we, you have to read this verse. I know. Like you have a syllabus. Right, right. So we did before. Right. But I think , it, it becomes almost more, um.

cora: I don't know. More imperative, I think after you encounter something funny can be more imperative to go to the original. 

ian: Right, right. Well, I, I wanted to recommend not a book only, but a writer. Um, I've been reading William Carlos Williams. I think he's such a great poet.

ian: And I looked on my phone and he lived in Rutherford and I, I asked my phone how far it was from here, the Watchung booksellers to William Carlos Williams's house in Rutherford. It's 6.5 miles from here to William Carlos Williams' house. Wow. And, um, I read, and so I've been reading the collected. Poems and I've read them and reread them and read Williams's autobiography.

ian: And I would say for people, you know, probably people listening, you're in the area that William Carlos Williams' great poet wrote about. And you go through the landscape that, you know, if you're taking the train in, you're going through that kind of. You know, downhill from here, downhill from Montclair Landscape where he lived, and there's descriptions that are just unbelievable.

ian: And he was also just a complete committed modernist. And I, I am a very, very late. Uh, arrival to modernism, it was basically over and done, but the, my, by the time I was born, but, but still, I knew a lot of people. Writers of that tradition in the sense that there were people at the New Yorker. I considered to be very much a modernist tradition and, um, the New Yorker itself in that tradition.

ian: So I just, I find it, . Really wonderful to read William Carlos Williams, and I recommend him to anybody. Uh, his two volume collected poems is just great. But, um, 

it's good talking to you, Cora, and thank you. Thanks to Ong books for inviting us to do this. 

cora: Thank you, dad. 

ian: You're welcome. Sweet. 

cora: Thank you watching books. 

Kathryn: Thank you Ian and Cora for chatting with us. Listeners, you can find their works and all the books they've talked about on our website and in our show notes. 

Marni: Tonight, September 30th, Jennifer Ann Moses will be in store to talk about her new book of short Stories

Marni: you've told me before. And next Thursday, October 9th, Amanda Hess will be at the Montclair Public Library to talk about her book, second Life, having a Child in the Digital Age with book Reviewer Kate Tuttle. 

Kathryn: On Tuesday, October 14th, we host our third in a series of art topic books at the Montclair Art Museum.

Kathryn: With Christopher Gorham, author of Matisse at War, and the following night, October 15th. We welcome a hometown debut novelist Caroline Palmer, to talk about her book 

Marni: Workhorse and on October 27th, you definitely won't wanna miss Mona Awa for the release of We Love You Bunny.

Marni: Tickets are going fast, so be sure to grab one now. 

Kathryn: You can get details and tickets for all of our events, story times, and book clubs through our newsletter show notes or at Watchung booksellers.com.