Episode 56: Cook by the Book

In this episode of the Watchung Booksellers Podcast, food writer Marissa Rothkopf Bates and bookseller Nicole Ban talk about the joy of cooking and cookbook reading. 

Marissa Rothkopf Bates is the creator and host of The Secret Life of Cookies podcast. A professionally trained chef and journalist, she writes for The New York Times, Newsweek, Food52, and Publishers Weekly. Her first cookbook The Secret Life of Chocolate Chip Cookies was released in September. 

Nicole Ban is a lifelong New Jersey resident who began her bookstore career at B. Dalton. After a longstanding tenure at Montclair Book Center, Nicole made the leap to Watchung Booksellers and quickly established herself as the store's resident problem solver and tech troubleshooter, as well as cookbook and mystery buyer. Nicole is also a graduate of the French Culinary Institute.

The French Culinary Institute became International Culinary Center which merged with the Institute of Culinary Education

Marissa's NJ Monthly Review 

Marissa NYT Restaurant Review Example 

Marissa's List of Best Pizza in NJ

Razza Jersey City

Marissa's Review of Razza

Burgoo Recipe 

Taylor Swift Chai Cookie Recipe

Rasp Guide

Kathy Griffin's episode of Marissa's podcast

J. Kenji López- Alt's Mac and Cheese Recipe

Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

Register for Upcoming Events.

The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, NJ.

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.

Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Marni: Hi everybody. Welcome to the Watchung Books Sellers podcast, where we bring you conversations from our bookstores, vast community of book professionals who talk about what they do for the love of books. Thanks for joining us. I'm Marni and I'm here with my co-producer, Catherine.

[00:00:13] Marni: Hey, Catherine. Hey, Marni. Hey everybody. And this week we're talking about cookbooks. 

[00:00:19] Kathryn: Yeah. , We're really excited to bring you to cookbook experts. , Marissa Rothko Bates , has just written her first cookbook, but, um, has been a food writer for a very long time. And she also hosts the Secret Life of Cookies podcast and with her is our very own Nicole Ban, who, is our cookbook buyer, and, um, also a trained chef. And the conversation was so fun that, uh, afterward Marissa and I decided we needed one more book club for our bookstore because I dunno, 7, 8, 9 is not enough.

[00:00:53] Kathryn: , And so we are gonna start a cookbook club beginning on November 12th. Um, Marissa will host it and the first book will be Sally's Baking 1 0 1 by Sally McKenney. And um, what you'll do is pick up the book and, uh, make a recipe, bring it, and everyone will discuss the recipes in it. Eat some food.

[00:01:13] Kathryn: Have a good time, and you can find all the information on our events page on our website. Wow. That sounds really fun. Yeah. Uh, Catherine, what are you reading? Uh, I'm a little late to the party, but I am reading Bunny by Mona Awa. Um, I think this was out, I dunno how many years ago. Several years ago. And became just kind of a cult favorite and sort of made her a, a big name in the publishing world.

[00:01:38] Kathryn: And she is coming back on October 27th for, , the sequel to that, called We Love You Bunny. Um, but I wanted to get this done before that event and so far it's really good, really fun. That's great. Yeah. How about you? 

[00:01:53] Marni: Uh, I am reading, I think I mentioned this before, um, a debut novel by Caroline Palmer.

[00:02:00] Marni: It's called Workhorse, and she's gonna be in the store tomorrow night actually discussing her book with Kate Tuttle. So there's still time to register for that. Uh, it's a great book. Uh, it's a quick read and I think you're really gonna like it. So you should definitely come and hear her talk. 

[00:02:14] Kathryn: Absolutely.

[00:02:15] Kathryn: Yeah. She's also gonna be in conversation with Clavis Nater at the library Oh, wow. In November. That's great. So you can come hear this and you can also hear her , interview vis. But without further ado, let's hear from our cookbook experts. Marissa Rothko Bates is the creator and host of the Secret Life of Cookies Podcast, a professionally trained chef and journalist.

[00:02:36] Kathryn: She writes for the New York Times, Newsweek Food 52 and Publishers Weekly. The Secret Life of Chocolate Chip Cookies is available in store now, and she lives in Montclair, New Jersey. And Nicole Ban 

[00:02:47] Marni: is a lifelong New Jersey resident who began her bookstore career fresh out of high school at b Dalton.

[00:02:52] Marni: After a longstanding tenure at Montclair Book Center, Nicole made the leap to watch on booksellers In 2006, she quickly established herself as the store's resident problem solver and tech troubleshooter.

[00:03:04] Marni: Title she holds to this day. Her favorite fiction genre is Mysteries. Nicole is also our cookbook buyer and she's a graduate of the French Culinary Institute.

[00:03:15] Marni: Nicole lives in Montclair with her wife, two school-aged daughters, a dog and a cat.

[00:03:20] Kathryn: Enjoy the conversation and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store.

[00:03:28] Marni: Thank you Marissa and Nicole for joining us on this episode. Listeners, you can find the links to their books and all the books they mention on our website and show notes. And listeners, we're gonna take a couple weeks off, but we'll be back in November. 

[00:03:40] Kathryn: Tomorrow, October 15th. Don't miss debut novelist, Caroline Palmer to talk about her book Workhorse and Conversation with Kate Tuttle.

[00:03:48] Marni: On October 27th, don't miss the return visit from Mona Awad for the release of We Love You Bunny. And on October 28th, Jake Silverman, we will talk about. Gilded rage at the Montclair Public Library.

[00:04:00] Marni: And on Wednesday, October 29th, Trey Johnson will be here to talk about his book of essays, black 

[00:04:05] Kathryn: Genius. You can get details and tickets for all of our events, story times, and book clubs through our newsletter show notes or at Watchung books sellers.com. 

[00:04:15] Nicole: Good morning. Good morning. 

[00:04:18] Marissa: Lovely Friday. It's a beautiful Friday. It's the first Friday that feels like fall. I'm actually wearing socks for the first time.

[00:04:25] Marissa: This is very important for people to know, but I'm actually wearing socks for the first time in many months. I am, uh, a diehard flip flop wear. And, uh, let me check. 

[00:04:35] Nicole: No, 

[00:04:35] Marissa: I, not today. Today we've got rag socks on and we're keeping warm and that's good. Yeah. Uh, because it's become that weather. But it's also the season for cookbooks because the list of cookbooks that I constantly am getting in my inbox, uh, that are.

[00:04:52] Marissa: Coming out this fall. It's huge. It's a huge list. Are there things that you are excited about? 

[00:04:59] Nicole: I'm sure there are. Um, I only say that because in the bookstore world, uh, we order a season ahead so I'm excited for spring, what's coming out next spring. But, um, I guess the, the positive spin on that is that I'm always surprised.

[00:05:17] Nicole: I'm like, oh, wow, look at that. 'cause I, you know, forget what's coming out in the fall. Um, who's the author? Roman, she has the one coming out. Mm-hmm. Um, Alison Roman. Alison Roman. Thank you. The first name, it was like alluding me. Um, so that I'm excited about. But, uh, yeah, you probably know more than I do at this point, what's coming out in the fall.

[00:05:38] Marissa: Yeah. Because I've been reading all the lists to see what cookbooks are out there that are competing with mine. So that's sort of what has made me, I mean, I'm generous , in spirit. There's room for all of us. Yes. Um, I don't mean to sound like a horrible human being 'cause I really am not. I mean, I, I talk about chocolate chip cookies most of my day and, and baking.

[00:05:57] Marissa: So, you know, I mean, 

[00:05:59] Nicole: that's very specific. The, the chocolate chip cookie, not all cookies are created equal, clearly. Um, clearly, clearly. And there's no 

[00:06:08] Marissa: cookie. More famous, let's say. Yes, more popular. That's not to say it has to be everyone's favorite cookie. I'm not that person. I'm not gonna tell you which cookie to love and which cookie not to love.

[00:06:19] Marissa: Um, there are enough cookies for all of us to love. There are, 

[00:06:22] Nicole: you know, I I, I was thinking about the chocolate chip cookie and, uh, I, I think it's one of those cookies. Like, it could be soft, it could be hard, it can be like thin, it could be more gooey. Like, it's, 

[00:06:34] Marissa: it's, I I divided my cookbook cup into, um, textures and within each chapter of a texture, so there's crunchy, thin and crispy, um, soft.

[00:06:49] Marissa: Then there are all sorts of different, like takes on it, like breakfast cookies, because you should have cookies for breakfast, and these are vaguely nutritious. So it's, i 

[00:06:58] Nicole: I have my own breakfast cookie. You do that? I make, yeah. What is it? It's, um, because I try and be healthy, it's. Mashed banana.

[00:07:08] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Oats peanut butter. That's it. And some dark chocolate chips. Okay, good. I just was waiting for the chip part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, 

[00:07:18] Marissa: yeah, it's breakfast. I need my chocolate fixed. Yeah, that's a great 

[00:07:21] Nicole: mix. My girls don't like it because it's dark chocolate and it's not milk chocolate. Okay. But they'll, I mean, how old are your kids?

[00:07:29] Nicole: They are 11 

[00:07:30] Marissa: and 12. Okay. So they'll get there. They will get there, they'll get there. Maybe semi-sweet. Yeah. Well, they're really, for me, let's be honest, they're, they're for me. Okay. You can have whatever you want then. I mean, 

[00:07:44] Nicole: my wife discovered them. She's like, what are these? She's like, oh, these are good. I was like, they're mine.

[00:07:51] Marissa: I, the breakfast cookie I make that's really delicious is a, um, made with, uh, chickpea flour and tahini and. Uh, honey and it, so it's boost like, you know, we're all like trying to get our protein in. Yeah, exactly. It's got its protein. Um, uh, and I also use, uh, whole wheat flour and almond flour, so that boosts protein and nutrition.

[00:08:14] Marissa: Um, look at this. I've turned chocolate chip cookies into a nutritious thing. It can happen. It's possible. Um, chickpea flour is one of those things where you're like, I'm gonna taste this raw dough. And then you're like, um, I dunno if that sound translates, uh, in a podcast, but it tastes like dirt if you eat it raw.

[00:08:34] Marissa: But once you bake it, it's delicious and not earthy in a bad way, but like tasty and nutty. 

[00:08:41] Nicole: I'll have to try that. Yes. I just bought oat flour and then I realized I could just grind oats, but 

[00:08:48] Marissa: yeah. But no one's gonna grind oats unless you have like a home mill as finely as like Bob's red mill will, you're always gonna get a little texture.

[00:08:58] Marissa: Right. I guess that's true. But we both have culinary backgrounds, right? 

[00:09:02] Nicole: Uh, yes. I, I didn't really pursue that as a career, but yes, I graduated and I was trying to figure out the year that all blurs. The more, the older you get, the more it's, yeah, it was a time it happened. I know it happened, I just don't remember when it happened.

[00:09:17] Nicole: Uh, probably I graduated from the French Culinary Institute around 2000 or 2000. 

[00:09:27] Marissa: And do you still cook in a French manner? A French inspired manner? 

[00:09:31] Nicole: Um, no. I mean, I would say it's definitely. You know, technique. I mean, that is really the background of, you know, learning French cooking is they're really just tea.

[00:09:44] Nicole: Teaching you a technique that you can translate into any cuisine. Right. That's really, that's it. So you got the, you got the skills. I got the skills. Like I'm not gonna toay like potatoes. 'cause I feel like that is a waste of a potato for it to look like a cylinder. Right. 

[00:09:59] Marissa: Though I still have my, I still have what is called like the birds.

[00:10:03] Marissa: Birds beak. Knife. Yeah. That you're supposed to toay. It makes it look like, yeah, you're right. Like a 

[00:10:09] Nicole: Yeah. Some, something like that. 

[00:10:10] Marissa: Like an Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, but what a waste. What a waste. What an annoyance. Also, it's like you don't, I like a potato. I, at this point I'm buying the bags of like mini potatoes that you can get that are all like, yeah.

[00:10:22] Marissa: And dumping those in a boiling water or dumping them in water, bringing them to a boil. Never, never warm water for potatoes. Um, and serving those and it's great. And I don't have to do anything. It's cool. 'cause potatoes, they come ready to go. They do 

[00:10:41] Nicole: that. They do. So, um, and where did you, Uh, I went to 

[00:10:44] Marissa: the, uh, Institute of Culinary Education.

[00:10:48] Marissa: Just up the street from you sort of, I mean, up the avenue, um, on 23rd Street. 

[00:10:53] Nicole: Okay. Yeah. Well, French culinary is it's a different name. Right? I don't know. I believe 

[00:10:58] Marissa: we don't know. 

[00:10:59] Nicole: Um, Catherine, you'll have to research that for us.

[00:11:04] Nicole: Um, so I worked during the day. This is when I worked at, sorry, Montclair Book Center. And then I went to cooking school at night. , 

[00:11:11] Marissa: I'm grateful for my training. I realized that I've been, all my life in every other job that I'd had, I'd been the person who was like, uh, I'll do some food for this. Can I do some? And you know, I grew up in a house where all we did was talk about food and politics and so.

[00:11:27] Marissa: I went to cooking school with the intent of never working in a kitchen because that just seems like a horrible hellscape that I was not woman enough for. And um, I really wanted to go so that I could learn to write about food with some background knowledge. And I think it stands me in good stead. And I went on to review, uh, restaurants for the New York Times and for New Jersey monthly.

[00:11:55] Marissa: And I think chefs found it when I would then interview them afterwards, but found, found it sort of, I'm not blowing my own horn here, I'm trying to make another point. So let, let me get there before you're, everybody's out there going, oh, nice ego. We're off cuff. 'cause I don't have a nice ego. Um, it's very small and it lives in my pocket.

[00:12:12] Marissa: Sometimes I take it out. Um, but the, uh, I, I would talk to chefs and I'd be like, oh, well I went to. Cooking school, I would let them know that in advance. So they didn't think that it was just some like person who was like, I don't like the way you're cottage of cheese tastes, because it doesn't taste like my mom's.

[00:12:32] Marissa: I'd be able to look at food with some sort of perspective nowadays where it's all Yelp and like influencers who are like, look at me in front of this. In fact, incredible spread at, you know, the Olive Garden. It's, you know, and they've gotten $150 worth of free food and that becomes a wonderful, um, thing for them.

[00:12:54] Marissa: Mm-hmm. And for the restaurant, but it's not a real review. And I sort of, I I miss 

[00:13:01] Nicole: that. Do you feel that in, in telling chefs like, oh, I went to cooking school. Do you think they even cared? Because I feel like coming out of cooking school and, uh, you know, what, what do they call it? Um. Trailing, yeah. In kitchens where basically you work for free, you go in, you work for free.

[00:13:21] Nicole: And, uh, they, they could care less if I, if I went to cooking school because it didn't really translate into real world kitchen experience. 

[00:13:32] Marissa: Yeah. I think it was reassuring for a chef to know that they weren't being judged by somebody who , didn't understand what goes into a, like a restaurant kitchen and how a restaurant kitchen isn't always working perfectly 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

[00:13:48] Marissa: It, it made me much more understanding of what they went through to , you know, to develop recipes , that they were using only seasonal foods. That they were all things that if you haven't worked in a restaurant and don't understand like how sauces are made and what kind of means to layer all the flavors that they do and put them all together, whatever.

[00:14:10] Marissa: Um. It, it, I think it made a difference to them. I, I think it put them at ease. 'cause I would also call and say, hi, I'm interviewing you. I guess I'm gonna be reviewing the restaurant. They'd be like, oh, when are you coming in? I'm like, I've already been there. And they would get a little nervous and I was like, 

[00:14:26] Nicole: don't worry, I'm just here to ask some questions.

[00:14:29] Nicole: Oh, okay. So it's coming at it from a different approach than, yeah. Wanting to work. I wasn't doing it to 

[00:14:34] Marissa: impress them. I was doing, I hopefully did it to put them at ease. That makes 

[00:14:38] Nicole: more sense. Needless to say, I do not work in a kitchen. Yeah, exactly. Needless to say. And my hat goes off to all 

[00:14:48] Marissa: the people who do.

[00:14:51] Marissa: It is not an easy job. No. It's a, it's a hellacious job and it's really meant for a certain type of person who, they're better people than I am. That's what I have to say. It's a lot of work. And it's a lot of work. And that's why. I think there should be more respect for what's being put on the plate. And that's why I think things like Yelp, which I like to yelp about, um, aren't the greatest for restaurants.

[00:15:16] Marissa: I don't think it's done them any favors. I don't, 

[00:15:19] Nicole: I don't really use Yelp at all. I just, word of mouth is really mm-hmm. Or my mouth. And I trust my mouth, my mouth even. I mean, when , we try a new restaurant, uh, my wife always will look at the menu and she's like, what do you think I'll, like, she can't even make, she's like, I don't, I don't know what to eat.

[00:15:43] Nicole: What, what, what do you think I'll like, I'm like, uh, aren't you enabling that behavior though? Should we talk about that? I totally am. I do that for my children as well. Exactly. Like before, if we could try some, we try. We had this thing where once a month we would try, all four of us would try a new restaurant.

[00:16:01] Nicole: That's a great thing, just because they're, you know, they're kids. They're in the what, what's, what are the food groups? They're mostly brown. Yeah. Nuggets, goods. Yeah. Some fried things. Fries. Yeah. French fries. Yeah. Ice cream. Is that a food group? Oh, uh, baked goods for, for my one daughter. Yeah. For sure.

[00:16:18] Nicole: Mm-hmm. And cruciferous vegetables. Pizza. Oh, sorry. Pizza. There's no vegetables. Only the brassicas. Uh, yeah. Uh, so I always have to, you know, I think we tried, um, one of the, the Thai restaurant that is on Valley Road, but I love, we love Thai and so we're like, oh, I, I think the girls would like Thai food. Let's give it a shot. And um, I was like, let me look at the menu, see what, you know, what we can pull from chicken saute.

[00:16:55] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Chicken today, because it's peanut butter and it's chicken because it's great. Okay. Any kind of dumplings they like. It's like, no, it's a ravioli. It's, it's, yeah. Everyone, every, every culture has that version. Every culture has, so it's, it's, but it's been interesting, you know, the doing that with them, I think 

[00:17:16] Marissa: it's really important to do that.

[00:17:18] Marissa: I have kids and um, when they were like 11 or 12, I was in like the midst of reviewing lots of restaurants and I'd be like, you wanna come with mommy and try something new? And they'd be like, nah. And that I love you guys. Um, but at one point I did review uh, ice cream, like, um, in northern New Jersey.

[00:17:41] Marissa: And then I also did pizzerias. Then they liked me, then they were happy 'cause I was bringing home like three or four different pizzas from different places. Who wouldn't be happy with that? Yeah, no, I was really happy. I wanna do that. No, it was really, it's one of those things where it's like, ah, well, uh, I did have to go to like 40 different pizzerias in a very small amount of time.

[00:18:00] Marissa: And you'd think, oh, well you probably don't wanna eat pizza anymore. No, I like pizza even more now. Right. I mean it, New Jersey is the best place for pizza. I don't, new Haven can have whatever it wants. Um, they say they're the pizza capital of the world. I have a lot to talk about with that. But, um, it's New Jersey.

[00:18:21] Marissa: It's the place that's not even New York. New York's fine, fine. It, it got stuff. We have more stuff, more variety, more interesting pizza. I'm just, I'm just gonna leave it there. And I, I'm not even going to, I I, did you hear me drop that pen? I did it with Gusto because I feel like,

[00:18:39] Marissa: it wasn't a pen. I dropped, it was the gauntlet. I've dropped it. Anybody wanna challenge me on this? Robert Sema, you wanna come out here and talk to me about New Jersey Pizza? Um, yeah. The first I reviewed, uh, Dan Richards, um, rata in Jersey City, which is hugely popular. And about, I don't know, eight years later, Pete Wells goes the best pizza in New York City is in New Jersey.

[00:19:06] Marissa: And I'm like, yeah, Pete Wells. I reviewed rots of eight years ago in the New York Times. But anyway, people are gonna think I'm a very bitter person and I think we should talk about nice things like, uh, do you cook out of cookbook yourself? Dun, dun, dun was, you know, as a journalist, I'm asking the cutting questions.

[00:19:23] Marissa: Yeah. You are asking the cutting 

[00:19:24] Nicole: questions. Um, first, or do you just collect them? I've had a cutback. Yeah. And is that for space reasons? Space, yeah. And, my significant other, you know, complains about the real estate we have in our home for cookbooks. So yes, I've cut back and then I've cut back, and then now I like, I guess she doesn't see the value, although when it's her turn for dinner, she orders.

[00:19:53] Nicole: So I think she does see the value, but I guess it's just inspiration. I think that cookbooks are really, for me, uh, inspiration because I, I can't say there's ever a recipe where I'm hundred percent in. 

[00:20:09] Nicole: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:10] Nicole: There's usually an ingredient in there. I'm like, yeah, no, thank you. Or my kids are not gonna eat that, or that I'm not a big fan of Rosemary.

[00:20:20] Nicole: Right, right, right, right. So it's, I think I can I can look, look at the list of ingredients, and then go from there and see like what I can cut, bake. I'm in. I'm not a huge baker, believe it or not. I know. That makes me sad in my heart. I feel like it's. Yeah, I don't know. And I, I'd like it, I mean, I like it.

[00:20:45] Nicole: Can I make a Yeah. Guess as to why, 

[00:20:48] Marissa: since this is our therapy session today. Yes, yes. Um, a lot of people are very happy to look at a recipe for like a main dish and go, oh, my family doesn't like Rosemary. Let's, and I also, I'm not gonna buy it and have it wasted in the refrigerator. Let's just make this without this, and I think I can add cumin instead, or whatever.

[00:21:06] Marissa: Right. And people more are more comfortable free-forming. The majority of people who come up to me and are like, I don't bake, say, well, I'm not allowed to freeform, and I'm worried that it'll turn out to be a terrible mess. And truly, one of the things I've tried to do with all of my recipe developing, like my stuff on Substack, um, and also in my cookbook, are here's some basics to know.

[00:21:32] Marissa: Don't feel, don't be afraid to freeform a little bit. If you don't like this, put this in. If you don't like this, put this in. Yes. Keep some of the basics there, right. Um, but trying to get people to understand it a little more and not to be afraid. I think people are really afraid of cooking sometimes, and they're, they once burned something and they don't wanna do it again.

[00:21:55] Marissa: And that makes me immensely sad because the ability to go to your kitchen and within an hour have a warm chocolate chip cookie or a brownie that you made, that's a miracle. You can do it. People, it's there. And so I'm very cautious when I write recipes to make them very clear and not hold anything back.

[00:22:19] Marissa: I've never really understood that, you know, like. It's so fun and French. My must bank is so special that these, and it's like, no, like it's butter, it's sugar, it's flour, a little bit of baking soda. Have fun. Enjoy yourself. 

[00:22:36] Nicole: Well, I, I think, don't worry, it's not a worry. Well, baking is more science like if you don't add, if things don't happen, right?

[00:22:47] Marissa: Yes, that's true. That is very true. But there's also just some basics that you can know. If you read a recipe, if you can read a recipe, then you can make almost anything you want. If the recipe's written well, it's really true. And make sure your baking soda is fresh. There's a few things like that. Make sure your baking soda's fresh so that things rise when they're supposed to rise, and your baking powder is fresh every six months.

[00:23:14] Marissa: Buy yourself something new. Go on. It's not that big an investment. 

[00:23:18] Nicole: It is not. But I do, I do use baking powder quite a bit. Baking soda, baking powder. What's the difference? 

[00:23:26] Marni: Ah, 

[00:23:27] Marissa: there you go. Double acting baking powder, um, is there to, um, start the rise when once water hits it or some moisture hits it, and then it reacts then to heat.

[00:23:40] Marissa: So you get two rises from baking powder. Um, baking soda is there. Um, it gives you one rise, but it's also there in case you, um, if you're adding something slightly acidic, it helps to balance that you need it in there. And that sounds terribly scientific. I don't want people to have to think about that.

[00:23:56] Marissa: Just read the recipe, you'll be fine. Uh, 

[00:23:59] Nicole: fine, fine. I'll read the recipe. 

[00:24:03] Marissa: Okay. On, on the next episode of this podcast, you and I will bake together in my kitchen. 

[00:24:08] Nicole: That would be lovely. So do you have a, favorite cookbook, a go-to cookbook? Um, 

[00:24:14] Marissa: for you? For me, the cookbook I would get everybody, um, who's has room on their shelf and is just starting out is the joy of cooking.

[00:24:26] Marissa: I think it's a great basic because it has everything. Um, I think, uh, books like Kenji Lopez, ALT's book about like kind of the science of cooking, which has a lot of great basic recipes in it. Also a great cookbook for starters. That's something a little more in a sense, modern, but anything you want is in the joy of cooking.

[00:24:54] Marissa: In my mother's version, which was from like 1950. I also can, it tells me how to skin a bear and cook a bear. Um, so that's a great one in case I come across a bear. And also how to skin a squirrel. It has the, anybody who's seen that book knows that there are little, these little charming, very 1950s illustrations of a woman wearing hobnail boots, you know, like granny wearing hobnail boots, skin and a squirrel.

[00:25:20] Marissa: And to make, I guess burgo. Um, well I know where I'm 

[00:25:24] Nicole: going when the world explodes. 

[00:25:28] Marissa: Must can skin a squirrel. I can skin a squirrel. Well, I haven't actually, I've just looked at the illustrations a lot 'cause as a kid I was like, why would I wanna do that? But apparently, you know, Kentucky Burgoo is a really popular stew.

[00:25:39] Marissa: It also could give you mad cow disease. So maybe if you don't have to eat squirrel and you don't know where they've been, I can't recommend it. Um, I collect a lot of mid-century books. Uh, cookbooks and I read those for fun and pleasure to see how people used to eat and how lucky we are that things have evolved and flavors and tastes have evolved and we use a lot more spices and our, you know, it's not all like cream sauces and jello.

[00:26:12] Marissa: There's this place for them in the American, uh, culinary lexicon, but not so much. Um, but I also use books like the Cake Bible as a sort of great basic for just learning how it sort of taught me how to make a great cake, right. The kind of basics of it. Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:33] Nicole: Um, no pictures in the joy of cooking though.

[00:26:36] Nicole: Just those cute little, 

[00:26:37] Marissa: well, those used to have those cute little illustrations. I love a cookbook with illustration with. Photographs and the best modern cookbooks have a photograph for every dish so that you know, and you don't have to guess. 

[00:26:53] Nicole: Yeah. I mean, that certainly comes into play when, uh, someone needs a cookbook as a gift.

[00:27:01] Nicole: Um, that's when I start pulling information, like, how do they like to cook? Mm-hmm. Or it is just like a subtle hint. 

[00:27:10] Marissa: Is it, see, that's a really, that's a really interesting question. So, I mean, or what I wanna know is what do people come in and ask for? Like what kind of information do you try and extract from them?

[00:27:24] Nicole: Um, you know, who it's for, their level of compete competency in cooking. Uh, like if they're terrified of it, if they feel confident. In cooking? Do they like cooking a certain style? Are they plant-based foods? Are they, you know, gluten free? Like there's so many, like diet, you know, there's a lot of mm-hmm.

[00:27:49] Nicole: And there's cookbooks for all of them. Like very, there's very specific cookbooks. 

[00:27:54] Marissa: What do you say to like, if someone's like, I'm just starting out and I wanna give, or like, you know, , two people getting married and you wanna give them their tarter cookbook. Like what kind of things? Oh my gosh.

[00:28:04] Marissa: What do you suggest? My gosh. 

[00:28:06] Nicole: That is a good one. . 

[00:28:09] Marissa: Scan the 

[00:28:09] Nicole: shelves in your mind. Scan it. Yes, I am scanning the shelves in my mind. 'cause I certainly, there's some general ones that I like, but they tend to be for the, , mom. My, you know, the mom who doesn't have time to cook and wants to cook and there, so what would those books be?

[00:28:29] Nicole: I like, uh, what To Cook when you Don't feel like cooking. It's a good one. I like the format. Mm-hmm. Um, I do like the easy weeknight dinners. Love that book. Emily Weinstein. Yeah. Um, for the more like person who's more of a foodie and ideas, the no recipe recipes one. Sam Sifton is a good one. But for the beginner, like the, not the beginner, but the general all around, you know, I probably would recommend the joy of cooking, honestly.

[00:29:01] Nicole: That is, it is, it's a classic for a reason. 

[00:29:05] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean. There was a certain, like age group of moms who grew up with the joy of cooking. Other people who grew up having the Better Homes and Garden cookbook. That one that looks like a tablecloth, you know, the checker tablecloth cover. Um, and I wonder what it is, like, do we have that cookbook for now?

[00:29:25] Marissa: Yeah. For like this generation? Or are we just so much less, like, focused on all of us eating the same kind of food? I think it's actually a great thing that we've sort of developed into a nation of all different types of food. Um, like if you look at easy weeknight dinners, it's every different type of food, every different type of flavor that you could want.

[00:29:48] Marissa: Right? So it is a good starter cookbook. It's a 

[00:29:50] Nicole: good, and depending on what you, and it's also the layout, which I, I also look at when purchasing, like, that's the, the concept is really neat. Like, okay, I want some, well, let's see, when I'm in the mood for 

[00:30:01] Nicole: mm-hmm. 

[00:30:02] Nicole: Like, we haven't done. This, this week, we haven't done anything with noodles or like, what do they have there?

[00:30:08] Nicole: Like, so I like that. I like that about it. 

[00:30:11] Marissa: I think people still use cookbooks too. I don't know what your take is on this. I think there's a lot of people go online and are reading. Yeah. You know, I mean, I have lots of recipes online, so I get it, but, and I try and make them printable so people can print them out and it looks legible.

[00:30:30] Marissa: But there's nothing like having a cookbook. To me, a cookbook is a, a, a book of promise, right. I'm going, I may never get around to cooking 98% of the dishes. And I think there's some terrible like statistic where like people only cook like 1% of the recipes in a cookbook or something, but. I, I always know they're there.

[00:30:54] Marissa: It's like hope for me. It's like, you know, someday I'm gonna make that dish. Someday I'm gonna do that, or I'm gonna make that tomorrow. I never do, you know, I, I end up, it ends up being like six o'clock at night and I'm like, what can I just, you know, I'll boil those potatoes that I mentioned earlier. We'll just have potatoes.

[00:31:10] Marissa: Um, makes my husband very happy. He's English. Yay potatoes. Finally, why with the pasta when I could eat potatoes? Um, that's my husband in a nutshell, right there. If anybody wants to know how to make him happy. Potatoes, um, I love potatoes. 

[00:31:27] Nicole: First, uh, dinner my wife made for me. Uh, macaroni and cheese from a box, andrioni.

[00:31:33] Marissa: Rice, a Roni. Oh, I grew up eating rice. Or Roni. Did she, were those two served together? Yes. That was, that was dinner and then you fell asleep. 

[00:31:41] Speaker 7: The two of you were like, 

[00:31:43] Marissa: Ooh, we cuts that together. I liked you gave a lot of very positive dopamine. You were like, I've had to ween her off the carbs. But she's 

[00:31:53] Nicole: doing good.

[00:31:55] Nicole: She's come a long way. My mother made the risoni with the ground beef in it. Yeah. Like it was really good. Yeah. I have back to, you know, cookbooks, um. We sell a lot of cookbooks and I'm always amazed. Yay. So much. Yes. Yay. And I'm always amazed. I know I shouldn't be, but I, I, I shouldn't say amazed.

[00:32:15] Nicole: It, it warms my heart, you know, that that's, there's people still find value and, and what a cookbook has to offer. And, uh, I have to say, like when I usually, if I recommend Joy of Cooking, people look at it and they're like, uh, and I could tell immediately, I go, this is like too many words. 

[00:32:33] Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:34] Nicole: There's nothing to look at here.

[00:32:36] Nicole: So then I have to go with like, then there's always like, you know, believe it or not, I do love Martha. I, I'm sorry. I love Martha Stewart, her great good food. It's very basic. I dunno if you're familiar with pictures on every page. Yep. I think that's, I think in a, in a world we live in where everything is very visual, I think that is what people 

[00:32:59] Marissa: like.

[00:33:00] Marissa: I completely agree. I mean, look at Ina Garten's cookbooks. Um, , Nigel Lawson, her like the Domestic Goddess Cookbook. That's, well, I look at 

[00:33:10] Nicole: her. I buy it from her, so I'm not gonna lie. Now, if it talked to me, the cookbook, then that would be even better. 

[00:33:18] Marissa: They have this thing now called YouTube. Oh yeah.

[00:33:21] Marissa: You might want against it. It's like a talking cookbook. You'll love it. Try it. And I'm sure you could find Nigel all over it. 

[00:33:33] Nicole: I probably could. Well, I mean, that's the trend, growing trend too. You don't have to be a, a chef. Like when I'm buying, I'm like, oh, okay. You know, everything is, you know, on a website now.

[00:33:44] Nicole: So we can just kind of scroll through. We can look at the covers, we can look at some of the recipes inside, which is fun. You know, I'm always clicking through pictures and mm-hmm. And, you know, marketing at Info and. You know, I look at who they are, where they're from, where's the restaurant, um, do you like a restaurant cookbook?

[00:34:06] Nicole: I feel like if they're New York based, then yes, I, you know, the British ones, people don't really know. Maybe Lange, but other than that, I don't know if people are as much in tune. Yeah. But if anything, if there're, there're 2 million followers on TikTok or Instagram or like, that is where the, I think a lot of cookbooks are coming from too.

[00:34:32] Marissa: Can you hear the tears rolling outta my eyes? Can you hear that? No. No. But for people at home, that's, it's, it's really like, I mean, I don't know if I should go down this path, but I'm not saying I, you know. No, no. The path for me is I've been doing what I do for years and years and years and years. And it used to be enough to just say, I write for the New York Times and I've written for real simple and blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:03] Marissa: And I have thousands and thousands of followers on Substack, but I don't have a million followers. So to prove to a publishing house that you're worth something. 

[00:35:14] Nicole: Yeah. 

[00:35:14] Marissa: And just for the people at home. I'm not five foot 10, um, 28 and blonde, you know, like, and I'm not living some sort of incredible lifestyle.

[00:35:23] Nicole: Yeah. 

[00:35:24] Marissa: Just me. And I really like baking and I know stuff. So could you buy my cookbook? You know, like it's really, it's, you can't exactly schlep your way into a publisher and go, I've been a food journalist for a long time and, you know, you gotta gotta make it a little sexier. 

[00:35:40] Nicole: Yeah. I have to say 99% of the time I'm, I, I am like, I have no idea who you are.

[00:35:46] Nicole: I am not one of the 2 million people who know. And, and believe me, my feeds are full of. Every food person you can think of. Right. And Taylor Swift. But that's 

[00:35:57] Marissa: a 

[00:35:57] Nicole: different 

[00:35:57] Marissa: story. And we, are we gonna talk about the album or that's off topic? Or what about her chai cookies, which are also delicious. Are they, I She has her own recipe.

[00:36:06] Marissa: She does have her own recipe. Have you made it though? Yes. And they're delicious. It's like a buttery cookie with a chai spice glaze. That sounds delicious. 

[00:36:19] Nicole: It is. All right. I'll have to, to go down a rabbit hole when I'm supposed to be working later when looking at No, it's research. That's, that's right.

[00:36:27] Nicole: That is research. That is definitely research. So what else should we talk about? Favorite 

[00:36:34] Marissa: utensil? My favorite utensil that's easy. My favorite. You are looking at me like, how could that be easy? I mean, I like forks, knives, and spoons. Those are your basic utensils, but like kitchen gadgets, do you have a lot of them?

[00:36:46] Marissa: No. I used to review them for Newsweek, different cat and like big gadgets, like $10,000 coffee machines. And then little things like strawberry hulls. Um, gosh. But if I had to like pick some things for people to have in their kitchen, I know the first thing I would get them, not the first thing, one of the things I would get them, um, would be a rasps for, um, zesting lemons and chocolate and Parmesan cheese.

[00:37:17] Marissa: It's great. It was a, it's the lovely like former carpenter RAs. Oh yeah. Oh, okay. Um, that became really popular like 15, 20 years ago. The best, one of the best tools in the kitchen and really good at if you wanna shave your knuckles, also very good at it. I don't know. That's what it was called. A rasp. Yeah, a zester.

[00:37:39] Marissa: What's a 

[00:37:40] Nicole: microplane? 

[00:37:41] Marissa: That's the microplane. Oh, that is a, sorry. Microplane. Zester. A rasp. Rasp. She said with a ra. 

[00:37:49] Nicole: That is a good one. 

[00:37:50] Marissa: That's a great one. A great one. Okay. Your turn. Let's, we should do a lightning round. Tools in your kitchen. You could only have five. What are they? Go, oh my gosh. You've got your microplane.

[00:37:59] Marissa: Zester. I'm assuming you're gonna agree with me on that one. 'cause it's a great one. Uh oh. She's making it small. It's a great, she's curling up her nose ever so slowly. Mm. Just a little

[00:38:09] Marissa: KitchenAid mixer, 

[00:38:11] Nicole: eh? Yeah. I mean, but you can do that stuff. A good carbon steel pan spatula. 

[00:38:18] Marissa: What kind? Oh, like, like a silicone spatula? Yeah. Okay. Those are, that's a great thing to have in the kitchen. Wooden spoon, of 

[00:38:27] Nicole: course. 

[00:38:28] Marissa: Okay. I mean, not of course for everyone, 

[00:38:31] Nicole: right? Of course you need a knife. 

[00:38:34] Marissa: Good knife.

[00:38:34] Marissa: How many knives do you need? One good knife, one a good knife. That's it. Mm-hmm. So that's what I say. One good knife. One good knife. I might vote for two good knives. So you can have like a pairing knife and then a chef's knife. You don't need more than that. You do not need more than that. It's fun to have more than that.

[00:38:51] Nicole: I mean, yeah, I probably have too many gadgets, but definitely not a mandolin because I, no, that's the first time I used it. I sliced off the tip of my finger. Of 

[00:39:03] Marissa: course, every, I think everybody did. Did they? Yeah. I think it's sort of like rite of passage. Oh, you know, like being initiated into a club. I have used the mandolin.

[00:39:13] Marissa: Would you like to see the scar? I think literally it was the first slice and then the 

[00:39:17] Nicole: finger was in the line. Oh.

[00:39:22] Marissa: I'm like, ah, I'm done. That's why I only do beets. So no one can see the blood from, sorry, people. Um, little beets. okay. You have to get rid of three things in your kitchen right now. What are they? Mandolin. Mandolin. But you have one. Of course I have one. And that, that, 

[00:39:39] Nicole: I don't know, that little box thing that people like No.

[00:39:42] Nicole: Kind of, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. You put the whatever you wanna dice and then you like slam the lid down. You don't really have one of those, do you? I do. 

[00:39:52] Marissa: And have you ever used it? No, I have not. Because you have knife skills? 

[00:39:55] Nicole: Yes. I think 

[00:39:56] Marissa: maybe the best thing someone could have in their kitchen is the knife skills.

[00:39:59] Marissa: Because I think also it gets you cooking much faster. If you could slice an onion in 30 seconds as opposed to like, chop, chop, chop. Yeah. I think you're are gonna like cooking more. 

[00:40:12] Nicole: Although I, I, uh, last weekend we had our block party and I made mac, mac and cheese homey mac and cheese, which I've never made before.

[00:40:20] Nicole: I know that. Shocking because my kids are like, if unless it comes from a box, they don't want to eat it. Yeah. But for others, I'm not going to do them. I'm not going, like, my wife was like, are you just gonna buy lots of boxes of, you know, mac and cheese and make that? I was like, no. I'm like, these are people who will eat the real stuff.

[00:40:40] Nicole: So I have to say food processor. Like I brought, I broke out the food processor, I put in the cheese grating mm-hmm. Blade. And I was like, it was like so fast. I was like, man, to think I would be like, grading four blocks of this by hand. Yeah. The food processor made short work of it. Yes. I, I don't know why.

[00:41:01] Nicole: I think because I didn't wanna have to clean it in the, so I didn't wanna use it in the past, but you can go straight in the dishwasher. I never put anything in the dishwasher. That's another, that's another story. That's a, 

[00:41:13] Marissa: that's 

[00:41:14] Nicole: a topic we can, okay. 

[00:41:15] Marissa: For another, I think, you know, when I started off my podcast originally, like I have a podcast called The Secret Life of Cookies.

[00:41:23] Marissa: And it was originally supposed to be about dealing with like people's cooking anxiety in a time of, I started at just the start of like the Trump admin first, first Trump administration and we would bake together and talk about like things that made people nervous in the kitchen right? As a sort of escape from it all.

[00:41:43] Marissa: And it was during the end of COVID, so everyone was still home and in their kitchen. Um, and it started off as a sort of therapeutic thing. My first guest was Kathy Griffin, the comedian. And I found out that she wanted to , learn to make lemon bars and. She talked about all the reasons that she was nervous about making lemon bars, and I talked her through it and she made lemon bars and ta-da.

[00:42:06] Marissa: They were delicious. But I still, I'm thinking that maybe we need to go back to that formula of like, we'll talk about what, what's holding you back in the kitchen. And I think for you, it's not using the dishwasher. Nothing holds you back. I mean, you can make anything, but why don't the dishwasher is so handy and uses less water?

[00:42:27] Nicole: I, I do know that, I did discover that recently I was like, that can't be true. And it is true. 

[00:42:34] Marissa: It is true. But no shame. There's no shame. That's, these are just choices you're making. I don't mean to shame you. I, I, I have been 

[00:42:42] Nicole: making an effort to, um, use it more. I have a lot of issues. We won't get into all of them here.

[00:42:49] Nicole: And, uh, tomorrow's 

[00:42:50] Marissa: episode, we dig deep.

[00:42:56] Marissa: Did you think it was worth it making mac and cheese from scratch? Yeah, because I Did you make the rest, did you use the recipe yourself or 

[00:43:02] Nicole: where did you get the recipe from? I don't know. I have this, um, re this, it's just a journal. It's a Keith Herring journal. I don't know when I got it. But the covers fallen off and it's held together by a rubber band.

[00:43:17] Nicole: And there's lots of folded pieces of paper in there. Recipes. That's the best. Yes. And so it was in there, I think there's more than one recipe in there. And it says mac and cheese and underneath it I have written, this is the one with an exclamation point. And I guess, and I'm like, well, I guess this is the one.

[00:43:35] Nicole: I haven't made it, and who knows how long. But hey, how bad could it be? Because I think that's another thing. There's so many variations. 

[00:43:43] Marissa: How bad could Mac and cheese be unless it's super dry. Right. And was it the one, do you, would you still put an exclamation point by it if you were reviewing it today?

[00:43:52] Nicole: Yes, I think I would have. Maybe use a little bit more milk. I think it could have been a little creamier because it's baked. 

[00:44:03] Marissa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:03] Nicole: Because you don't have to bake macaroni and cheese, 

[00:44:06] Marissa: do you? No, you don't. You can do So Kenji Lopez Alt has an amazing one pot. And it's not in a cookbook, it's online. Um, but if you type in Kenji Lopez, one pot, macaroni and cheese.

[00:44:20] Marissa: Oh, it's crazy good. It is like, um, it's insane. It's like condensed milk and cheese and macaroni and yeah. What else? You know, you can add garlic powder or whatever, but it is 

[00:44:36] Nicole: so, yeah. So, but yes, it was a hit. I, I put a little chili powder in it to cut the dairy and that it's like a nice little, not overwhelming, but a nice little surprise.

[00:44:49] Nicole: Um, and the girls liked it. They tried it and they're like, this is good. I was like. Yeah, it's great. Surprise, 

[00:44:59] Marissa: surprise. I, but they're different categories, right? Like you can't compare homemade mac and cheese to box mac and cheese. It's, it's like, it's comparing an Oreo to a home Baked chocolate chip cookies both deserve to exist in the world of cookie, right?

[00:45:15] Marissa: Well they would look 

[00:45:16] Nicole: at it and be like, well it's not really the colors off. I was like, yeah, 'cause it's not orange. So like, put food. I should put food. I should have just put food color or just eat 

[00:45:24] Marissa: orange cheese. Right? I mean, come on.

[00:45:28] Nicole: I could have done that. I could have done that, but, I was never a fan of the, like, hiding vegetables in the food. When I was pregnant, I thought I would be that mom. And then in reality it was set in and I was like, hump, just eat the brown food. I don't care. But also you'll, they'll get there, right?

[00:45:47] Nicole: Absolutely. I, that's when they, you know, their kid won't go to, that's in potty train and you're like, well, they're not, they're not gonna be in high school and wearing a diaper. So Yeah, at some it'll click and they'll be like, I want eat healthy, or, 

[00:46:01] Marissa: or they just might like, like the flavors of things suddenly, right.

[00:46:05] Marissa: Yes. Um, it's, it's very good. 

[00:46:08] Nicole: Um, but I think, yeah, the, the whole adage of the, what is it, 50 times you're supposed to try something. Yeah. Um, ridiculous like that. That's 

[00:46:17] Marissa: truly. And it's the truth for another. It's true, but it's also for a totally different episode of, of feeding kids, because I have a lot of, 

[00:46:27] Nicole: oh, I was talking about my wife.

[00:46:28] Nicole: Every time we go to a, a party and they're passing around hor d'oeuvres, and there's without a doubt, but you go to a 

[00:46:34] Marissa: lot of parties where people are passing around hor d'oeuvres. What kind of life do you yeah, you're right. No, 

[00:46:38] Nicole: you, they're, no, I was getting jealous. Just say yes. Yes, yes. Um, a lot of weddings, I'll say, put it that way. , They were always passing around like mini crab cakes. Mm-hmm. Love them. Love 'em. Every time. Do I like these? No, it's just, but she eats it anyway. And then she's like, and spits it into a napkin. 

[00:46:59] Marissa: But at least she tries 

[00:47:00] Nicole: it. So I'm like, wow.

[00:47:01] Nicole: She really is getting her 50 times. And I told her she has about maybe 25 more times to go 

[00:47:06] Marissa: and what's got to like about a crab cake anyway? Maybe she doesn't like fish. I don't know who I'm, I don't wanna, yeah. I really feel like I'm digging into your life here and I, I know I'm proud. Am I oversharing right?

[00:47:16] Marissa: No. No. I think people like that. People like that. They, okay. They're gonna come in with tips for you on getting couples counseling. That's what they'll say. No. Okay. , Do you cook differently for fall? I love soup, of course.

[00:47:32] Marissa: Soup, love soup. Like is, have you, has there been the changeover in your kitchen? Have you stopped using, like, has it stopped, you know, the tomato basil sort of combo platter and you're moving into squash? Have you gotten there yet? I have 

[00:47:44] Nicole: not gotten there yet, no. But I don't know if I was ever in the tomato basil.

[00:47:50] Marissa: Oh, I see. Okay. So summer, come on. Lot of zucchini. Like, what are you doing? I like to grill. 

[00:47:58] Nicole: I grill year 

[00:47:58] Marissa: round though, right? That's the great thing. Now it's like I grill year round. I know for me, I'm suddenly like, it, I really resisted the whole, like, I'm gonna start baking with pumpkin now, or I'm gonna start, but I've, I've turned like this will be the weekend where I give in to the

[00:48:17] Marissa: pumpkin spice. 

[00:48:20] Nicole: Do you not buy any processed or grocery 

[00:48:23] Marissa: store baked goods? Um, that seems a bit of a loaded question for me. I did just write an entire book about chocolate chip cookies, so I do do a lot of baking. I also have a substack where I Oh, create recipes for people every week.

[00:48:38] Marissa: Although this week's recipe is gonna be savory, not gonna be, um, but for myself, I'm, I mean, we, I'm always like. Digging into like, should I make a pumpkin spice thing with some caramelized apples on top? Hmm. And who, who benefits from these, uh, treats? Um, my neighbors. Very nice. Now my son will come out and bring them back to college with him, his roommates are very, um, receptive to fresh, warm baked cookies. Does that surprise anyone? 

[00:49:10] Nicole: No. 

[00:49:10] Marissa: No. 

[00:49:11] Nicole: So I'm just, I'm just kind of trying to figure out how, uh, we can benefit here at the bookstore from your baked treats. Call me.

[00:49:23] Nicole: I, I take requests. We have a lot of, , people with sweet tooths here. Personally, I'm a more of a savory than a sweet. I see, I know, I know. I, I say that at the end of this conversation for a reason. Yeah. But that's, you know, I, I, I'm varied just as I am with my reading taste. 

[00:49:47] Marissa: Let me ask you a question though before we get onto your reading. Taste. If I were to come in here with a platter of warm chocolate chip cookies, would you be like, no, thank you.

[00:49:53] Marissa: I'm only for the savory? Or would you have one? No, 

[00:49:56] Nicole: no, I would definitely have one. Okay. Homemade. I, I always make an exception for homemade, but if for I, you know, if it's a bought pie, I am like, eh, I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'm not gonna,. 

[00:50:07] Marissa: And they're also like cookies, like, um, miso chocolate chip cookie, which I think you would appreciate for.

[00:50:12] Marissa: It's sort of tends slightly more savory. Really? Yeah. And 

[00:50:18] Nicole: that's good. See, that's kind of like. It scares me. The, okay, the combo there. You're like, it sounds like also I, another time where I'm dropping a gauntlet, 

[00:50:26] Marissa: boom. Ugh, man. I, well bring you one is more what I'm saying. I mean 

[00:50:31] Nicole: more, I, I feel like we have more, uh, you know, issues of mind to flesh out here, uh, in the future.

[00:50:39] Nicole: Maybe even a, a live, uh, cooking. Cooking demo. Demo. Demo. We should do it. Demo. Yeah, demo. Definitely. So, uh, other than reading cookbooks, developing recipes, do you read for pleasure like fiction or nonfic? I have been 

[00:50:53] Marissa: reading, um, , a book called Butter. Which is a really super popular book, out of Japan.

[00:51:01] Marissa: And it's, uh, been a really interesting read. It's taken me a little bit longer to get through it than I wanted. Um, but it also introduced me to the, the Pleasures 'cause it's part mystery and it's also, it's a wonderful book. But introduce me to the idea. See it is food of, um, warm rice with a little pad of butter and a little bit of soy sauce and just how perfect and simple that is.

[00:51:25] Marissa: But this time of year,, because it's kind of getting into spooky season, there are two books. Like if people haven't read them yet, I, they're like my favorites. Um, and one is North Woods, which is spooky and brilliant. And also the other book by Neighbor in Montan is Hester by Lori Leko. Albanese, which is a book I read, I don't know, two, three years ago, stuck with me ever since about Nathaniel Hawthorne and who the woman was behind The Scarlet Letter,

[00:52:03] Marissa: it's a absolutely moving book, and so I guess picturesque. I love, it's really stuck with me and they're great for spooky season. 

[00:52:14] Nicole: Love it. And you, I am reading a book called Pick a Color, and it takes place in a, a nail salon. Yeah, go on. I'm listening. I think it's a short little book. It's, uh, under 200 pages, but it's told from the perspective of the woman, uh, who owns and runs the nail salon and, how she views customers and her coworkers and it's just a very interesting, and pick a color is really, that's the first thing they say to you.

[00:52:47] Nicole: You walk in, I'd like a manicure, pick a color. 

[00:52:52] Marissa: Wow. So does it give you insight? Like would you Oh yeah. Yeah. Do you really wanna ever get a manicure again? 

[00:52:59] Nicole: Well, you might think, are they talking about me? And of course they are. Yeah. 

[00:53:02] Marissa: Yeah. Okay. So that's. But it's confirmed. 

[00:53:04] Nicole: Yeah, it's definitely confirmed. Um, , her name is, uh, Thema Za.

[00:53:09] Nicole: Um, it's just really great. All right. It's really great. It's, it's something completely different than I that I would read, but it's, um, fascinating. Really well done. I, I guess in working in the service industry myself, like it's an interesting take on, uh how you're, as a employee, you're viewed by people you are servicing.

[00:53:29] Marissa: Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Like, I gotta read this. The cookbook I'm looking forward to is dorys, um, everyday Cakes. I mean, why not? Right? It's have all the good words. Dory, Dory, Greenspan. Great. Um, a brilliant baker, uh, every day and cake together, which are two words that go great together.

[00:53:55] Nicole: I could eat cake every day. I don't know what cookbook I'm looking forward to. I, again, I have to check my list, but there are a lot, I mean, it's, it's pre-Christmas. This is when they're all coming out. Absolutely. It's a busy season. A lot of cookie cookbooks, but I will only recommend yours.

[00:54:10] Nicole: Thank you. Okay. You 

[00:54:13] Marissa: then I will bring you treats. For every 10 books you sell, I bring you a dozen cookies. Okay. Two dozen cookies, three dozen and a cake. Sounds good to me. Martha, put your order in. All right.