Episode 66: From Pitch to Page

In this week's episode of The Watchung Booksellers Podcast, author and book doctor Arielle Eckstut talks with debut author and life-long educator Dan Gill about developing his story No More Chairs from a one-minute pitch to a beautiful children's book.

Arielle Eckstut is co-founder of The Book Doctors. She is the author of nine books including The Secret Language of Color: The Science, Nature, History, Culture and Beauty of Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue & Violet. She is also an agent-at-large at the Levine Greenberg Rostan Literary Agency, where for over 20 years, she has been helping hundreds of talented writers become published authors. Lastly, Arielle co-founded the iconic company, LittleMissMatched, and grew it from a tiny operation into a leading national brand, which now has stores from coast to coast, everywhere from Disneyland to Disney World to Fifth Avenue in New York City.

Daniel Gill was born and raised in New York City. He graduated from Iona College with a B.A. in psychology. He served in Vista, the national peace corps. During this time, he counselled young inmates at Rikers Island Prison. He attended Columbia University and graduated with a masters degree in urban education and curriculum. Mr. Gill came to the Montclair School System in September of 1970 and retired in 2023 after completing 53 years of teaching. He was part of the committee to redesign the middle schools of Montclair in order to desegregate the schools to comply with a court order. In 2004, Mr. Gill and his students wrote a book on the history of Glenfield. It celebrated the Brown vs Board of Education ruling and its effect on desegregating the Montclair Public Schools. The focus of the book was to look at Glenfield as a microcosm of that decision. His illustrated children’s book No More Chairs was selected by the National Education Association for its 2026 Read Across America Program. 

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Pitchapalooza

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A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

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The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, NJ. 

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

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Transcript

Kathryn: Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Watchung Booksellers podcast where we bring you conversations from our bookstore's, vast community of book professionals who talk about what they do for the love of books. Thank you for joining us. I'm Catherine here with my co-producer Marni.

Kathryn: Hello Marni. Hi there. And this week we are pleased to bring you a conversation between two devoted community members. One comes from the publishing world and the other had a long and wonderful career as a teacher and is now a first time children's book author. 

Marni: That's right. Ariel Tut, uh, who you may remember from, uh, back in season one is an author, agent, and book doctor who works with budding writers on getting their books published.

Marni: Ariel helped lifelong educator Dan Gill become a first time author after he pitched his idea for a book at Pitch of Palooza, held during the Montclair Literary Festival. 

Kathryn: If you don't know about Pitchapalooza, that is an annual contest that Ariel and her husband David Henry Sterry, uh, collectively known as the book doctors put on each year at the festival.

Kathryn: Unpublished authors are invited to present a one minute pitch for their book. Ariel and David give feedback and at the end they choose one winner who then gets help in crafting their pitch, and they also get an introduction to an appropriate agent or publisher. 

Marni: So after you hear this episode, you're not only gonna want to attend this year's pitchapalooza, but you're also going to want to attend the two and a half hour workshop that Ariel and David are hosting right here in the kids' room on Sunday, April 12th.

Marni: This workshop explains how to choose the right idea and how to craft a pitch and how to find the right agent or publisher. So you'll really have a leg up, uh, when you pitch your idea at the festival.

Kathryn: Before we hear from Ariel and Dan. Marni, are you, uh, reading anything you wanna recommend? 

Marni: Yes, uh, I'm reading Lydia Malays. Um, it's a short story collection called Avis, and it's actually one of the finalists for the Story prize, which is an annual, um, book prize. . And in fact, Catherine and I with two other books, sellers, Caroline and Asia, were going to attend, 

Marni: . And, um.

Marni: we were invited by Larry Dark. He's , uh, friend of the store, um, and he's the director of the Story Prize. So we're really excited to attend that and, , hopefully meet some of the authors and it's gonna be a great event.

Marni: So definitely recommend, uh, this book.

Marni: How about you, Catherine? What are you reading? 

Speaker: I am reading a book called The Danger to Be Sane by Rosa Montero. , This book is coming out in May, , in the United States. Rosa is a, , Spanish author.

Speaker: Um, she has written over 20 novels, I believe. Um, but this is her first book, uh, being published in the United States by Europa. Um. It's kind of a blend of memoir and essay and, , the history of various writers who have had mental, .

Speaker: Health sort of issues, but, but really the point of it, it's, um, that there is no normal, um, and that's kind of a myth that we live under. , And really creativity is normal, you know, but it's very funny and, I can't wait for it to come out in May. And, um, I think it's really gonna be a, um, a good read for anybody who is, just a creative person.

Speaker: It's very, um, reassuring. Yeah. Sounds great. Yeah. I'm happy to share it. 

Marni: Great.

Marni: Okay, so let's get to our chat. Ariel x.is co-founder of the book Doctors. She's the author of nine books, including The Secret Language of Color, the Science, nature, history, culture and Beauty of Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and Violet. She's also an agent at large at Levine Greenberg Rustan literary agency, where for over 20 years she's been helping hundreds of talented writers become published authors.

Marni: Lastly, Ariel co-founded The Iconic Company, little Mismatched, and grew it from a tiny operation into a leading national brand, which now has stores from coast to coast, everywhere from Disneyland to Disney World, to Fifth Avenue in New York City, 

Speaker: And with her is Daniel Gill.

Speaker: Dan was born and raised in New York City. He graduated from Iona College with a BA in psychology. He served in Vista, the National Peace Corps where he counseled young inmates at Rikers Island Prison.

Speaker: He attended Columbia University and graduated with a master's degree in urban education and curriculum. Mr. Gill came to the Montclair School system in September of 1970 and retired in 2023. After completing 53 years of teaching, he was part of the committee to redesign the middle schools of Montclair in order to desegregate the schools to comply with the court order.

Speaker: In 2004, Mr. Gill and his students wrote a book on the history of Glenfield. It celebrated the Brown V Board of Education ruling, and its effect on desegregating the Montclair Public Schools. . His illustrated children's book, no More Chairs was selected by the National Education Association for its 2026 Read Across America program.

Marni: Enjoy the conversation and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store. 

Arielle: I'm Ariel Tut. I am an author and a book doctor for many, many years now, but I'm sitting with one of the most exciting and heartwarming stories of all the authors that I have helped over the years. So it's really fun to be here having this conversation. 

Dan: Hi, Ariel. 

Arielle: Hi Dan. 

Dan: It's nice to be with you. I'm Dan Gill.

Dan: Uh, I was a teacher in Montclair, New Jersey for 53 years on the middle school level, and, uh, now crazy as it may seem. I'm an author. 

Arielle: Yes, you are. Yes you 

Dan: are. Thanks to you, Ariel. 

Arielle: Yeah. So it's a funny story. Mm-hmm. About how we met each other. Yes. Even though we lived in the same community for a long time and my daughter actually went to the school where you taught for decades.

Arielle: Right. But, um, my husband and I do an event called Pitchapalooza, which is kind of like American Idol for books, and, um, we were doing , a local one here in Montclair, New Jersey. And I called up what was a familiar name, but that I couldn't quite place. And up you came to the podium, 

Dan: right?

Dan: So. First of all, I went as a, uh, not as a participant, but as an observer. But as I thought about it, I thought, well, maybe I'll just pitch my book and if I have given the opportunity, I thought of it as a checkoff on a bucket list, uh, to do and to have some fun. And I sat there and I was amazed at how many great.

Dan: People there were in terms of their, uh, books that they had presented to you, and I was just overwhelmed by how kind and generally both you and your husband were to these people because. You know, as a writer, obviously you expose yourself just like any entertainer, and, and you are really very much looking at the, not just the negatives, but the positives and giving people encouragement and how the at they should pursue it.

Dan: So as we went along, I said, well, that, you know, these books are gonna win, but I'll go up there anyway and I'll, I'll pitch mine. And since I've told this story many times in my classroom, it was not. Difficult. It was difficult to do it in a minute, but it was not difficult for me to do it. Um, but as I was halfway through presenting the book to you, you get one minute, you guys give everybody one minute to present their book.

Dan: Um. You started looking at your phone and as an educator, I thought to myself, well, if anybody's looking at their phone, they're no longer interested and they're moving on. So I thought, well, I lost, but that's okay. Um, and so when I was finished, um, I felt, well, this was fun. This was something that I really enjoyed and I sat down to wait.

Dan: Await the, the winner of the, presentations that day. And lo and behold, you guys selected my story. 

Arielle: We did. And so the funny part about this is I went on my phone because I knew this name was familiar, Dan Gill, and you started talking about being a teacher.

Arielle: And I was like, wait, is this the. Famous Mr. Gill from Glenfield. So I started Googling it to see if that's who you were, and if you can believe it. I have somehow developed the skill where I can be Googling and listening to a one minute pitch simultaneously because there have been other circumstances where I've been Googling as well, and.

Arielle: Of course it was you, and this was such an extraordinary story, and I'm gonna do the thing that I do to people when I'm helping them become professional authors. I'm gonna put you on the spot right now and ask you to give some version of that one minute pitch so people know what the book is about. 

Dan: So, um.

Dan: What did I say? There's an elevator pitch. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Um, basically, um, why would a teacher keep an empty chair in their classroom for over 40 years? That's the premise of the story. Uh, and the story revolves around a birthday party that I attended. It's a true story. Um, my set, myself and my best friend Archie, and he being African American, being invited to a birthday party in New York City, uh, circa 1955.

Dan: Um, we're both nine years old. We go there with great anticipation and the mother of the boy whose birthday party was, opens the door and lo and behold, she says to me and to Archie that I could go in, but Archie couldn't because there were no more chairs. And, um, I was shocked because I knew she had plenty of chairs.

Dan: And I said, Hey, you got plenty of chairs. I'll sit on the floor. And then she said, no, you don't understand. There are no more chairs. I said, no problem. I'll go home, I'll get a chair. And then she said, no, you can go in, but Archie can't because there are no more chairs. And at that point, you know, it dawned on me, you know, the, the hurt and the um, uh, the, the coded words that she was using to, um, express her prejudice.

Dan: And, um, we gave her the presents and we went home. Um, where there were enough chairs, 

Arielle: so that was some, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Exactly how close it was to the pitch you gave. 'cause uh, I don't even think we have it on video. Right. But close enough. 

Dan: Right. And. 

Arielle: It was amazing to see how moved people were 

Dan: Yes.

Arielle: In the room. 

Dan: Mm-hmm. 

Arielle: And, um, you know, I probably said something to the effect of when you told that story that this is such an incredible story, such a moving story. I would like to hear more of the poetry in the telling or something like that. Yes. 

Dan: Mm-hmm. 

Arielle: You know, to, to make us 

Dan: mm-hmm. 

Arielle: Know what it's like when you're, when it would be on the page, as opposed to you being there physically Yes.

Arielle: Telling the story. And in fact, that is what happened as you moved it onto the page. 

Dan: Right. 

Arielle: And we, we did, I just wanna say for everybody out there who's trying to get a book published, and particularly those who are trying to get a children's book published is. The fact that everybody was moved by the story was the reason, number one, that we chose you.

Arielle: The second reason is as an educator for 53 years, you know. What is a story that is going to move kids? 

Dan: Mm-hmm. 

Arielle: So a lot of people, when they come to us with a picture book, they say, oh, my grandchild, I tell this story to my grandchild, and they love it. And they have an audience of one. 

Dan: Right. 

Arielle: You've had an audience of hundreds of mm-hmm.

Arielle: Thousands over the years. So we have trust in your authority Yeah. That you know what you're doing. And also is a very important story for this moment. 

Dan: Right. 

Arielle: In time and has only become even more important. 

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: Frankly. Um, and so the why you, why now? Both got answered. And then the, the emotional pull of the story.

Arielle: So these were such, um, important factors. And then as we worked together on the story, that's when the wordsmithing came, came to be. And do you wanna talk a little bit about what that experience was like? 

Dan: So, um, you know, if I could just go back a little bit 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Um, to why I told the story, um, originally, um.

Dan: So I've been teaching, as I said, for 53 years and teaching Martin Luther King has been at one point rather easy because the students themselves had, um, experienced him, saw him, um, some had actually been to some of his speeches and so on. But as we got into later years, the turn of the century, the nineties, the turn of the century, there was a time in which the students, uh, I think found him distant.

Dan: And I felt that there was no emotional, you use that word about the story. There was no emotional pull to his story and to his words. And so I thought to myself, well, how am I gonna draw them into Martin Luther King? As, you know, all good educators try to do, as I try to figure out how, how am I, what entry ways can I provide for my students so that they can actually experience not just, uh, study or, uh, take a test on.

Dan: To really experience someone. And so I said, well, I have a birthday story and let me try it out. And um, I started telling the story and immediately there was a resonance to the story because there's this thing between, um, a speaker and his audience. And as a teacher, you know, when you're getting through, and as I said before, when you were looking at your phone, I thought, oh, I'm not getting through.

Dan: So there's always like this at when I finish the story. I draw it out a little longer than a pitch. The, there's this pregnant silence. And what that pregnant silence tells you is that it's reached some core of their emotional being. 

Arielle: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: And for that, I found, oh, this is great. Not so much because I was making people uncomfortable.

Dan: It was because I was making people either curious about my own story. Um, but also about Martin Luther King. And I'm starting to understand the, the emotion of what he did and how he reached people and how he tried to change the perspective that people had. So here we are now, we have a book and you have to make it sing.

Dan: You're right, it can't just sit there as a, you know, bunch of words. And, um, so that process begins with. You helping me to get a agent. Okay. And then that agent and you securing me a, uh, uh, a contract with Little Brown and then getting an editor. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And then you submit. Your work to the editor with, by the way, I put in all kinds of, um, suggestions about how it should be, uh, illustrated and then it comes back with all kinds of redactions and, uh, crossouts and the biggest thing that I noticed was.

Dan: All of my suggestions about illustrations were erased. It wasn't even, they weren't even crossed out. They were just whoop gone. Because now I learned something else about the children's book is that in fact you write it and somebody else illustrates it. 

Arielle: And 

Dan: I 

Arielle: just wanna say something about that process for a second, because it's very surprising to people, all people, but parti particularly those writing children's books, picture books that don't know about this process.

Arielle: Um, so we, we once interviewed a, a children's book editor about why authors should not include 

Dan: right 

Arielle: directions to the illustrator, and they said, imagine giving a world famous conductor. Instructions on how the violinist should play or whomever in the orchestra. That's what they do. That, you know, they, that's how they carry out the making something beautiful is through their instinct of how to do that.

Arielle: They don't need that instruction. They just need the score. So this is the score, and then the illustrator is inspired by the score to make the illustrations 

Dan: right. So that's what I learned. I learned right away about that. And then, uh, you immediately as an author become an auteur because no one should mess with my words.

Dan: And now Margaret Ramo, who's my editor, starts messing with my words and I'm getting like, why are you doing this? 

Arielle: A veteran editor, I 

Dan: should say. Yes, that's a wonderful editor. And may I add, who really shepherded me through this whole process? And, um, because, well, you start to think, uh, wasn't it good enough?

Dan: Or whatever. And of course, you're trying to say what you feel are the most important elements of the story, and your editor is trying to shape the story in a way that is more, um, adaptable to a, to a text, uh, on a printed page rather than a spoken word. And, um, we went through a lot of iterations with that.

Dan: We had conversations about it. Um, she cut around the edges. She didn't cut the story, she cut around the edges and there's some things she cut and I didn't like it and still probably don't like it. But, um, you know, be that as a may. She's the expert. And, and that's the other thing here I am a neophyte. Who am I to tell a veteran, editor and successful one?

Dan: Um, you know how to do her job 

Arielle: so. The illustrator, um, Susan. G. Gaal. Gaal, that's how you pronounce her last name, GAL. 

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: Produced what I think are some of the most beautiful illustrations, um, that I've seen in a book in a long time. Talk about emotion. 

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: Somehow she was supposed, she was able to evoke emotion through the palette.

Arielle: The brush strokes. Yes. The expressions, yes. Tell what that was like to, yeah. To see these words come to life through these illustrations. Yeah. 

Dan: So you act, as I said before, you have this actual idea of what the book should look like. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And um, so here we are now faced with who are we gonna hire as the illustrator?

Dan: And Margaret was really kind and so far as she probably could have selected somebody and yeah. You know, what am I gonna say? 

Arielle: Absolutely. 

Dan: But she, so we went back and forth. I had suggestions, she had suggestions. We looked at people's work. Uh, we were coming out of COVID. A lot of people were backed up at that point.

Dan: Yeah. So we were trying to get somebody who was gonna be free 'cause we wanted the book out. Um, and she rejected some of the people I liked. Um, I, they might have been too expensive. I don't know. Uh, she didn't see maybe that they were gonna be, um, fit the book. And then I rejected some people she thought, but we, she just kept searching and we kept on talking.

Dan: And then when we saw Susan's work, we, I, I thought, okay, this is really good. This is excellent. And her, as you said, she has this incredible palette, uh, for the book that really brings out. The story. Um, and my story begins in New York City where I grew up and she actually sent her daughter to one, uh, my neighborhood, my old neighborhood, and to take pictures, but to go to the actual door of this apartment house, uh, where this incident took place to take pictures.

Dan: So when you see the door and the, the woman, um, you know, telling us that there are no more chairs, the mom. Um, that door, that's the door. That's a, so when I look at it, I go, wow, that really triggers my mind, you know, that, that experience. Um, and it's really important. So people talk to me all the time. They like the story, but they always talk about the illustrations.

Dan: And that is so, it's, it's, it's has to be complimentary. That has really, I think, enriched the story, uh, very much.

Arielle: I grew up just, uh, a mile down, uh, Manhattan from, from you down.

Dan: Right. 

Arielle: So, and the buildings where you grew up are very similar to the buildings where I grew up. And I think she's in Seattle, Susan is that, 

Dan: uh, California. 

Arielle: Or California. So it was so. Interesting to me. Even though it was from photographs, I felt like she had experienced this 

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: Part of the world.

Arielle: Like that's how much it came to life for me. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Arielle: Um, so they, they truly are, are so special. Um, so one, one interesting thing that I. I wanted to ask you about, uh, both as a teacher and now as an author, is one thing that we tell picture book authors all the time is that the, the most common mistake is that people want to write a didactic story where they're teaching something.

Arielle: Now, what's interesting is you are teaching something here, but so many of the educators that I've given your book to say. The, the didactic nature of the story is not, there's no evidence of it right. As you read it. Right. So can, can you just speak to that and, and mm-hmm. As an educator. How, how you learned to do this, 

Dan: right.

Dan: So, well, I think it goes back to the early storytelling, you know, the caveman, you know Yeah. Around a fire, uh, telling the, the, the story of your family, uh, your origins, uh, your triumphs, your challenges, your failures, your, um, defeats, your victories. Um, all of those things are told in a such a way as, as not so much as a learning.

Dan: Tool, but as a, a story that provides learning 

Arielle: mm-hmm. 

Dan: And experience. So when you look at a picture book or anybody, you know, even anybody, you hate, people who are preachy. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: You know, that's, that's the last thing you want, um, in any book, whether it be a book for an adult or a kid. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And kids will pick that up.

Dan: I, I will tell you that they have these meters, these phoniness meter that's like incredible, you know, they know a phony, a mile away. And they'll tell you that. Um, and I think sometimes, you know, when you become preachy, you become phony. And I think you just wanna tell a story that you hope will connect to them and make them, um, think not just about the story, but to think about their own lives.

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And the manner in which they, in, in this case, how they speak and treat other people and how they use words. 

Arielle: So there's a famous educator who used the phrase that a children's book should offer both mirrors and windows into lives. Mm-hmm. And, um, a lot of people think that that means. When they do a children's book, that it has to appeal to all children, uh, all the time.

Arielle: Whereas actually specificity can be the means by which a window or a mirror can can happen. Yeah. And your story is of course, so specific and yet. It allows all children to relate. 

Dan: Yeah. And I think that, I think it really hits upon something. I think that, uh, teachers, uh, provide entryway. 

Arielle: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: You know, every kid is going to find his own way.

Dan: Not every kid's gonna, you know, go in the front door. Some kids are gonna go in the back door, some kids are gonna go in the side door, some kids are gonna climb through the window. 

Arielle: Right? 

Dan: And, um, but the point is that you as an educator trying to provide the variety of entryway that a kid can, can find out more about whatever it is that you're teaching.

Dan: And, um. When it comes to social and emotional learning, you're really trying to do that for kids without, again, telling kids, oh, you gotta be good, or you gotta treat, you know, your neighbor like yourself, and so on. But to really use this, the, the good stories to, to make them think about how they do it and, and what they do.

Dan: And like you said, provide this entryway into, into conversations and good books create conversation. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And that's what people tell me about this book and their classes, that they have lots of great conversations based on the story itself. 

Arielle: So you, um, exited the classroom as AI was entering Yeah. The classroom.

Dan: Mm-hmm. 

Arielle: And I now have this experience every day where I'm reading something that. Someone posted or sent to me and I'm like, was this written by a human or was this created by ai? Um, and because I'm in the publishing. Industry. That's a really disturbing and scary thought. You, in your classroom had kids writing their own books?

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: And what we're seeing, um, happening in, in publishing and film and television, all of these things is like. Kids aren't even watching a whole movie. Yeah. Anymore. 

Dan: Mm-hmm. 

Arielle: Everything is in tiny bits, and the storytelling may not be from a real person. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Arielle: So. Uh, now that you are retired and you're, you know, reflecting on, on your career and what it's like in the classroom now, how, how do you feel about that and, and what, what can we all do?

Dan: Yeah. Well, I think we're in the early innings of ai. And we are all grappling with that, um, idea, all kinds of careers. I, uh, I, I went to my doctor yesterday and I said, so how, how has AI changed your life? I, I ask everybody like 

Arielle: that, oh, 

Dan: you know, I went to physical therapy today. I said, how, how does it, how is it gonna change your life?

Arielle: Yep. 

Dan: And, um, they all have their own iteration of what they think's going to happen. The doctor, for example, said, well, you know, when I do operations now AI is, is is, uh, copying or I don't know what they say, ingesting how I'm my hand movements. 

Arielle: Mm. 

Dan: So that eventually this is gonna be all robotic. 

Arielle: Right. 

Dan: And he said, it's really not that scary to me at my age.

Dan: He said, but I'm scary for my kids. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: So anything that's new is scary. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Anything that's different is. Um, sometimes, uh, put, you know, put aside, but we really have to think about it. And I'm not sure I'm an expert in it, but I do think that it's a challenge that we can all meet, uh, but we have to control it.

Dan: Um, Congress itself hasn't really come up with any guidelines. Yeah. As to. Ai, the New York Times now has sued chat, GPT, or I think it's chat, GPT because they ingested all of the New York Times into it, right? Yeah. And they said, wait a minute, that's copyright infringement. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: So, um, there are all kinds of, um, things of that nature, but I think that what we need to do is to look at what, um, uh, social media can do well, and that's to connect.

Dan: I think sometimes we forget about that. And I think con the connection is always being, being told the story. I think that creates a, that creates that connection. Hopefully you're looking at a real human being. I know that's another issue. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: But you're hoping that, that, that, um, we'll never lose that flavor.

Dan: And certainly you may have to go to a bookstore and see a following disclaimer, AI written right. Written by a human being. 

Arielle: Right? 

Dan: You know, or with all of these older books, you put them on one side. Here are the books before ai and here are books written after ai. And I think what people will find out is that the stories that were written by human beings.

Dan: Touches people better 

Arielle: and how, how do we preserve critical thinking and storytelling in the classroom when attention is being you? Yeah. Bifurcated and, 

Dan: yeah, 

Arielle: taken away. Like do you feel like you could still have kids writing a book in your classroom? 

Dan: Yes. Yeah, I think so because kids like to talk. And 

Arielle: that's good.

Dan: And so you can, you know, there are all kinds of ways in which you can write a story. You can record it and write it down. Um, but I think that everybody likes a good story. Yeah. I, I've never known anybody, you know, when somebody says, once upon a time, I'm. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: You know, I'm, I'm immediately in because I'm going to find out what happened at that time.

Dan: So I don't think that we're gonna lose that sense, that human sense of experiencing something that's different or the same or off kilter. That, um, we may not have had we not had this opportunity. Um, and I think that's, that the future in Books is, is going to be that we still need to be able to create those once upon a time stories so that we can draw kids into, uh, these worlds.

Dan: Um, and then to talk about kids. Yeah, they, they have short, um. Attention spans. I think I, I always tell people this generation's gonna have real, um. They're, they're not gonna allow their children to do what they're doing right 

Arielle: now. Right, right. Yeah. 

Dan: I think they're just gonna be very restrictive. 

Arielle: That's 

Dan: interesting.

Dan: About the use of their phones and so on. And I think, you know, co I tell people all the time, what happened to us as a society was COVID. COVID and the phone at the same time was like a Yeah. You know, a recipe for disaster. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Because now all our screen rules went out the window. 'cause kids had to be on the screen.

Arielle: Right. 

Dan: And the parents were on the screen 'cause they had to work. 

Arielle: Yep. 

Dan: And nobody's watching anybody and everybody's frustrated. Um, and then we realized that schools can't be run this way. Then when I tell people all the time that when the kids came back after COVID, they were like feral human beings.

Dan: They were like with, you know, they were bereft of human experience. Oh yeah. It was really, really tough. And those, you know, the kids who I last taught are now juniors in high school and they. They lost a year of education. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: But they, most importantly lost a year of socialization. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And emotional growth.

Dan: And, and I said to everybody, we should have just left everybody back one year. Mm. You know, there was no rush to get through this. 

Arielle: Right, right. 

Dan: It was a great loss to them. And, um, and so, you know, I do a lot of cooperative groupings and, you know, working and man, did I really have to work hard at getting kids.

Dan: To cooperate and work collectively towards a common goal. Um, so I think that phone itself has been a problem. I think, um, we're gonna have to figure it out. And I, and I told the teachers when I left, I said, you know, I always love the challenge When I taught, I love the kids that didn't wanna learn. I love the kids who thought that my subject was stupid or whatever.

Dan: And I said, here's your challenge. You know? Right. How are you gonna use ai? In a productive way. You know, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. 

Arielle: Right. 

Dan: So we've gotta have, figure it out. 

Arielle: Well, I find it interesting hearing you talk about all of that and, and me thinking about the publishing industry, which is a very, very, um, frustrating, um, business right now as are so many Yeah.

Arielle: Businesses. Particularly creative ones, um, because, you know, with, with phones and, uh, and everything, ai et cetera, you know, uh, a teacher with 53 years of experience in the classroom in. With an incredible story that people love and wanna listen to is not what publishers are looking for. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Arielle: Like the, the fact that this is out in the world is a unicorn.

Arielle: Yeah. And really, you know, what we hear all the time is you need to be an influencer. You need to have X number of eyeballs ready for your book, and that's what determines whether or not you get published or not. At the same time, my daughter went through COVID at Glenfield. 

Dan: Right. 

Arielle: And she learned how to knit and crochet.

Arielle: Yeah. And do all kinds of, um, incredible crafts, which are a big part of her life now. And we're seeing a resurgence in publishing. At the, um, at the grassroots level. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Zines are, are back. Yeah. You know, all kinds of things that are distributed to small groups of people who have a great passion for the subject.

Arielle: And there's, there's a beauty in that too, and. It's, you know, for anyone out there who is looking to get a book published in what we call the traditional Way with an agent and a Big five publisher, it has become almost impossible. But the, the challenge, as you say, take it as a challenge. Mm-hmm. Is that there are so many ways to find our readers now, and they're.

Arielle: Is also a way in which publishing has been democratized via self-publishing and micro publishers in that now anyone can be published. 

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: So 

Dan: yes, 

Arielle: if you can connect to your readers, you have a way of, of mm-hmm. Making it as an author and you might not have been able to do that 25, 50 years ago. 

Dan: Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Dan: What you speak of is something that's really. Um, how I feel, uh, about the future. Um, we've got a divided, you know, populace in terms of the way in which we disseminate information, but we can still meet those people where they are. And let me say another thing about what's destroying reading. 

Arielle: Yes, please.

Dan: The testing 

Arielle: Yes. 

Dan: Of our youth and schools. It is absolutely outrageously stupid. Um, I'm so with you. Teachers know where kids are. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Um, there isn't a teacher in the world that's going to tell you, oh, I don't know where Johnny is in terms of his reading ability, or Mary is, and her math ability and so on.

Dan: You're constantly with that human being and you're constantly. Evaluating their work and you're constantly interacting with that person, you know where they are. Um, and we're giving tests as if, um, our children are some form of widgets that we can produce. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: You know, and I think that every kid is an individual.

Dan: Every kid is different. We're making, we're trying to take every kid and stick 'em into the square peg. 

Arielle: Yep. 

Dan: And I, and I really. Hate it. And, and what it does is it destroys literature for kids. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Because now you have to be, uh, tested. On. I mean, I don't wanna be tested on every book I read. 

Arielle: Well, the funny thing is, when I was a kid, the thing I did the worst at was reading comprehension on tests.

Dan: Yeah. 

Arielle: That's what I do for a living, and that's the thing I'm best at. 

Dan: Yeah, I know it. It's, it doesn't test. Well, here's another thing. We'd actually don't know what these tests are testing. 

Arielle: Mm. 

Dan: You know, there, there's no validation to these tests there. There are people who stand by them and whatever. And, and then they're sold to America on the basis that the schools are failing.

Dan: All right? Um, if the schools are failing, then our society's failing. Mm. And and education is not about what happens between nine and three. It's about about your life experiences as well. And when you have a kid who doesn't have life experiences, of course he's gonna have difficulty in school because school reinforces for those kids everything about.

Dan: What they don't have, 

Arielle: I 

Dan: just, what they haven't experienced. 

Arielle: I just took a workshop with a educator who talks about, he's, um, native American and talks about the colonialization of. American education and he talks about a school, um, that was mostly indigenous kids and the scores were so horrible, the worst that you could have kids were getting, you know, kicked out of school, bad behavior, the whole thing.

Arielle: And a new principal came in who was himself indigenous, and he said, we're gonna change what we're doing in the school. Instead of testing. Our goal is going to be making the kids happy. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Arielle: And everything turned around. Yeah, absolutely. But my question for you with all of this is, we're so far down the testing rabbit hole.

Arielle: How do we get out of it? 

Dan: Well, parents are gonna have to be, you know, I always say that schools change when parents, you know, pipe up. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Um, I think they should be outraged that, that the new thing is, oh, you don't have to, like in high school Oh, you don't have to read the whole book. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Oh. It's like, oh, you don't have to see the whole film.

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Why would you just watch this snippet? 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: And you'll really understand it. Um, they're gonna have to really start to complain about that and to, um, ask one, are the tests actually testing what they say they are? Number two, , aren't there better ways for us to, to evaluate how well kids have learned and what they've learned, um, and how well they do things?

Dan: Uh, and three schools should not be just for, they shouldn't be like a cognitive factories. They should certainly, um, stress the arts as much as they stress the academics, because for many kids, that's where they can find something that they can relate to. And be successful at, which leads to success in other areas.

Arielle: One of my pet peeves of my daughter's education was that the core curriculum, um, made it so that you almost never read an entire novel. 

Dan: I know, 

Arielle: and you mostly read nonfiction. 

Dan: That's, yeah, that's what everybody's tested on now. 

Arielle: Yeah. So, uh, it was, if, if she hadn't come from a family of readers, she would've gone through almost all of school without having read a novel.

Dan: Yeah. 

Arielle: And, and in addition to that, when you have, you know, these huge companies selling curriculums and you keep changing the curriculums, it's, it, it's so cumbersome and, and I feel like, you know, just. Putting a novel in front of a kid. Mm-hmm. Forget about 

Dan: mm-hmm. 

Arielle: Curriculum. That's such a wonderful experience and I, I feel scared that we're losing that.

Dan: Yeah, I agree. I really do. And I, and it, it worries me because I love the written word and I love a story and I love a good story. I, I use, uh, by the way, I use picture books in my class all the time, long before I ever 

Arielle: Oh, wow. 

Dan: Thought about 

Arielle: Uhhuh, 

Dan: what my story was to be. 

Arielle: Yeah. 

Dan: Because it, I thought it would reach kids.

Dan: It's quicker, faster, and like you said, not preachy, but real conversation starters for them. Yeah. Yeah. And um, and I think that. Parents. My my point is, parents, if you're listening out there, don't stop reading to your kids. 

Arielle: Yes. 

Dan: Even if it's a newspaper article. Even something that you find interesting in the news.

Dan: Even if it's just a, a, a poem that you found important, even if it's a, a letter that you receive from your father. Um, anything. To, to reawaken for them the, the beauty of the written word and how it conveys to them something of importance. 

Arielle: That seems like the perfect place to stop, doesn't it?

Arielle: So Dan, in wrapping up, I, I would love to hear what books you have to recommend.

Dan: Well, my favorite book. And this is really hard, by the way. 

Arielle: Okay. 

Dan: So if you're out there, please don't think that there, I don't appreciate so many things. But my favorite book of all time is Catch 22. 

Arielle: Wow. Do you know I have never read it. 

Dan: Uh, Joseph. So 

Arielle: now I have to go home and read it. 

Dan: It, and I, and I, and I can tell you is because as a, as an adolescent, when I read it, it spoke to me perfectly because what it emphasizes is the absurdity.

Dan: Of the things we think are important. 

Arielle: Hmm. 

Dan: And it, it, it tells us the things we think are important are actually not. 

Arielle: Hmm. 

Dan: And it skewers that beautifully and it skewers the concept of war and how we conduct ourselves as a, as a society towards hurting other human beings. Um, so that was my favorite book of all time.

Arielle: Great. Okay. So the book that I was gonna talk about seemingly has nothing to do with our conversation, but I think it does and it's one of my, I'm rereading it 'cause it's one of my favorite books of all times and it's The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs. Oh yes. And she was a journalist and an activist in New York City.

Arielle: In, um, who wrote this book in the late sixties, and it's about, really about the community rising up against larger forces that moneyed forces that are forcing things on the community that the community does not one. And I, I think we're in that moment right now where. It is up to us joining forces as community members, um, to, to say what what we need and, um, and what we want and to fight these much, much larger forces that seem like.

Arielle: They can't be fought. And actually it's kind of goes into the Catch 22, you know, the, these books, one from nonfiction, one from fiction, teach us the tools, um, that we need. 

Dan: That sounds like a great book for a Montclair community. Read it. Should it really? Yes. I think it would be fabulous. If we did that 

Arielle: watch on book sellers.

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: Next, I think we should have a double bill. Catch 22. Yes. And the Death and Life of Great American Cities. 

Dan: Yes. Yeah, that would be great. 

Arielle: Well, this was so fun. 

Dan: Yes. 

Arielle: I always love talking to you. Absolutely. And, and the great thing, I'm just gonna do a full on pitch for buying no more chairs. Um, to say that you know, this, this is a, a book ostensibly for five to 10 year olds, but I feel that it is a gift book for.

Arielle: All ages, which if I was trying to sell the book, someone would say, you can't have a book for all ages, but you actually can. And this is it. And it's so beautiful and it really, it just gives hope. Um, and, and I, I, I, I hope that everyone out there listening will go buy a copy or more. 

Dan: And thank you to Wach Young.

Dan: Booksellers, my favorite place. 

Arielle: My favorite place 

Dan: in the, in the town, the community, because it's so welcoming. And the new children's bookstore here is just filled with great things for kids to read and explore. And, uh, if you haven't made your way here, uh, get here immediately. 

Arielle: I agree.

Kathryn: . Thank you, Dan, for talking about your journey to becoming a published author and Ariel for shepherding Dan's story into the world. Listeners, you can find Dan's book in the kids' room and all the books they've discussed are in our show notes and at Watchung books sellers.com.

Marni: It's Spring Break in Montclair, so there are no events this week, but next Tuesday, , the Montclair Public Library hosts New Yorker, writer and Dean Emeritus of Columbia Journalism School. Nicholas Lehman, to discuss returning a search for home across three centuries with journalist Dale Rusko.

Kathryn: And on Wednesday, we welcome debut author susie Nadler to talk about her Ya Novel Lies We Tell About the Stars with author Jason Tans. 

Marni: And as we mentioned earlier on Sunday, April 12th, Ariel X dot and David Henry Steri will host a writer's workshop on how to get published also that day we host our first morning workshop author Laura Marks Fitzgerald will host a six week workshop for working through burnout. 

Kathryn: You can get details and tickets for all of our events, story times, and book clubs through our newsletter show notes or@watchonbooksellers.com.