Chimney Cricket: Oregon Trail Part One

A 2,000-mile promise of “free land” sounds irresistible—until you’re walking beside a creaking wagon at two miles per hour, guarding flour from river water and praying cholera spares your camp. We’re pulling the curtain back on the real Oregon Trail: why ordinary families sold everything for 640 acres, how they trained stubborn oxen, and what a good day looked like when success meant dry firewood, a safe ford, and hardtack that didn’t break a tooth.

We map the true route from Independence and St. Joseph through the Platte River corridor, past Chimney Rock and Fort Laramie, over South Pass, down the Snake, and into the Blue Mountains before the final gamble: raft the Columbia or grind over the Barlow Road around Mount Hood. Along the way, we unpack the daily routine—pre-dawn wakeups, “nooning” for the teams, buffalo chips for fuel, constant repairs—and the invisible killers that made the trail America’s longest graveyard. Cholera, dysentery, typhoid, and scurvy took far more lives than the dime-novel dangers, while accidental gunshots, wagon wheel tragedies, and treacherous fords turned small mistakes into permanent losses.

We also challenge the myth of constant conflict with Native peoples. Many encounters were peaceful, practical, and life-saving: trade for food and gear, guidance to safe crossings, and local knowledge that kept families moving. Yet the migration’s sheer scale disrupted grazing lands and carried diseases that devastated Native communities, adding a heavy moral shadow to the westward dream. By the time travelers reached Oregon City, they still faced winter and the work of building homes from nothing—but rain-soaked soil felt like a hard-won answer to hope.

Hit play to experience the Oregon Trail beyond the game over screen, and stick around for our next chapter on the Sager family’s journey. If this story grabbed you, follow the show, share it with a friend who loved the game, and leave a review to help more history buffs find us.

Transcript

Cold Open And Beer Shoutouts

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Well, hello there.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Hello. Well, I do declare this is the history per food.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Clutch my pearls, I am Bradley.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:27

I am just fine.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I am Kate.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Can we stop talking like that?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

No, I think this is brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

I think this is just terrible.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I think this is a niche we have found.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Oh my darling. This is such a great die.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Well, I I have never had such a wonderful time before like this. Alright.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

I want to I mean unalive myself, whatever. Um I am not drunk enough for this.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I am Kate.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

And I am Bradley.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

And this is History Buffoons.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Welcome again with a little less Southern, terrible Southern accents. We apologize to anyone in the South.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Falsely representation.

SPEAKER_04 1:14

We are not what you would call good actors. Because we don't speak for yourself. No, I've seen you. I am speaking for myself, but for you. Mui terrible. If I could do say so myself. Alright. So.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

How you doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:33

I am okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Oh, just okay.

Two-Parter Reveal And Topic Setup

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Well, a year ago today, yeah. The day we're recording this, my father passed away. So it's kind of nice to be a little preoccupied with doing some stuff like this. So thank you for that. Uh, and I'm gonna drink some beer in honor of my father. Also, shout out to Larry from Sierra Nevada. Uh, we are both gonna have Sierra Nevada today, which we'll get into just now. My I have pretty sure I've had this on the podcast last year, and I'm so excited to have it again this year. Because it's seasonal. This is my favorite beer, Sierra Celebration. It's an IPA, it's a fresh hop IPA. It's so fucking good. And when I was looking for beers for the podcast, I'm like, oh my god, it's out. And they had it in bottles, so I was even more excited. I like it in bottles so much better, personally. Yeah, it's fine in cans, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

I mean cheaper, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Uh actually, no.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

But most most, but not this one.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Not not this brand. Oh basically. At least I don't remember it being anyway. It doesn't matter. I would pay for a buck more for a 12-pack of this over cans. Anyways, um, so shout out to Larry. I sent him this saying, hey, my first one of the year. Cheers. And uh he uh responded back. He's always been a good guy. I've known him for a long time. Been to California with him, and I've been to North Carolina with him. And he works for Sierra Nevada, he works for Sierra Nevada, he's the rep in this general territory that we live in and we we reside in.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

But hi Larry. Hi Larry.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Uh so what we got, what I got you, because I uh this is new, I believe. Um I got you the pills, Sierra Nevada Pills craft lager. Uh they come in cute little eight-ounce cans, so it actually comes in an eight-pack instead of a six-pack.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Um there's a little scene at the very top.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Isn't that cute?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

It's super cute. It says family owned, up operated, and argued over.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Yep. No, I know. I've I've had many a Sierra Nevada and I have seen that a lot, but I love it. It's so great. This is great.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Okay, I'm open right there.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

I have a bottle opener because you have a can. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

It's a cute little can.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

It's like that's a baby can.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

It's like um the the Red Bull gives you wings. Red Bull. It's like Red Bull cans.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

Oh my god. So good.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

That's a pilsner.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

I mean, that tracks.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

It's good. I like it.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Is it good? Yeah, it is super good. So since we got you an eight-pack, um, I am gonna focus on celebration on this episode. I might get a little loopy. 6.8. Um, I'd like to apologize in advance. Uh, but I do want to try one of those after the podcast because again, you're more of a lager person than I am. I do like some. I mean, I've been drinking banquet for a while. Uh, but it's Sara Nevada. I gotta try it. Just delicious. Delicious. So, all right, let's get into it. What do we got today?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

We have a two-parter.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

This is a two-parter?

SPEAKER_03 4:44

The hell you say clutch my pearls. Clutch my pearls.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

This cannot be happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Oh my land. Oh my land. It is a two-parter.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Um I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yes. Um surprise. You and I are only going over the the first half, and next week we're gonna do the second half, just like our followers. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

That's what a two-parter means?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Absolutely does. God damn it. Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_04 5:14

No, I learned something new every fucking time I'm on this podcast. This is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

So, the first part, we are gonna talk about the Oregon Trail.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

You died of dysentery.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

We are going to talk about a generalized Oregon Trail experience.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

That's a Donner, that's a Donner part. That's a different trail.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Nope. That is the same trail.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

Oh, it is. It was the Oregon Trail, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yep. Uh, they just took like a northern pass.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Gotcha. I actually mentioned them, but we're not talking about them specifically. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

So today it's gonna be like a general Oregon Trail experience.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Do we get to talk about the game?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

I I didn't I didn't go into the game.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

The game that was a classic.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Okay, I'll add that into my next part. But it's no, it's a great game. They can turn it into a card game too. Did you know that? No, really? It's a card game now. I didn't know that. Yeah. So the next episode. Did you have something else you'd like to say?

SPEAKER_04 6:17

I'm just gonna go on about the game for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Go ahead. I loved the game.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

I grew up on that fucking game with the old green screen shitty computers from the 80s. And all pixelated and yeah, with the ox carrying the fucking carpet.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

You have died of dysentery.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Yes. Oh, so great. It was because it was basically, you know, you made decisions and you were either fought. Basically. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. But I loved that game when I was a kid. And I died of dysentery ultra. A lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

I will look into that for our next one.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

I have an itch on my back.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

All right, Baloo of Jungle Book. Baloo of Jungle Book. You always did that. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Against the tree.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Anyway.

SPEAKER_04 6:56

Did you ever watch Tailspin? Yes. I love that show.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Okay. So the second part next week, it's gonna be us about a specific family.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

On the Oregon Trail.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

On the Oregon Trail.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Oregon Trail. I'm from Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 7:13

I'm trying to scratch my back. Thank you, Sarah Nevada, for your help.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

See, this is how much I like Sierra Nevada. Even my bottle opener. Thank you, Larry, is Sierra Nevada. So I have a keychain. Not picking that up. Sierra Nevada.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Torpedo. Tubes.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

Had to do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Okay. Oregon fever.

SPEAKER_04 7:44

Oregon fever, yeah. Oregon fever. Oregon fever.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Why do you call it Oregon? I grew up. You weird Wisconsinite.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

I'm sorry. We're not all from the fields of corn. Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Nor do we talk like that.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Well, that's what you did when I first met you, and you finally acclimated to Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Stop it.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

I don't know. I've I've just it's so shorts. Um it's two-parter. We got time. Uh so uh for a while I worked for a local furniture company. Shout out to Al and his mom, because his mom basically got me the job. Um we were called Steinhoffels, and for a while I ran uh well, I moved around, like I only ran one individually, but I ran a couple different mattress stores for them when they used to have them. They don't anymore. But um, I was out at our Janesville location, that's where I was currently working at the time, and this lady comes in, and I had to wait for people to come in. It's not high traffic, whatever. You just sit there, get fat, and play on the computer and answer stupid service calls. Um, so this lady comes in, she was in visiting family or whatever it was, and she needed a couple mattresses for some, I don't even remember, kids or whatever, it doesn't matter. Um, but I needed her license to do like the processing, the payment, and so on, or whatever. I'm like, oh, you're from Oregon. No, it's Oregon. I'm like, I'm from Wisconsin, it's Oregon. Don't fucking argue with me. I don't correct you for talking stupid, like saying Oregon. I don't know. I'm just I'm from Wisconsin. This is how I talk. No one needs to correct me. I mean, seriously, should I start correcting everybody who says something wrong in my opinion? No, it's your opinion, it's my truth. I fucking hate when people say that. Keep drinking. I'm trying.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Don't make me tell stories.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I'm trying to keep going, but oh my goodness. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Orgon. Fever.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So, yes, people were coming down with organ fever. Symptoms included. Are you ready for this?

SPEAKER_04 9:53

Oh my god, waiting with bated breath.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Selling your house. Big symptom.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

That's a fever.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Buying an ox.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Oh, you mean so like they would sell their shit so they could go? Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

They would buy an ox. They they believed that land out west was basically heaven with better soil.

Gearing Up: Wagons, Oxen, And Supplies

SPEAKER_04 10:17

Well, it was uncharted territory at the time. For the most part, yes. I mean, for the most part, obviously, yes. But I mean, it was basically the great expansion expansion, you know, like with the whole gold rush and moving out and so on, more space, trying to claim their giant plot of land or whatever it might have been. So, yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Like, hey man, we got better opportunity out there. Let's sell what we got here and go make even more out there, is more or less what it was.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

So, propagandists and government folks hyped Oregon like it was the Garden of Eden, right? Bragged about its perfect disease-free climate.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

That seems like a bold claim.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

These promoters offered free land, and that is very irresistible for people who are trying to make it.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

How could they just offer it up free? Like, I mean, were they allowed to do that? Okay, so they these people own, was it the government?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

I would assume so.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

I mean, that would make sense. Like, hey, we need people further west. We'll give you a plot of land for free. Yeah, go inhabit it and start farming and shit.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

We're not talking just a plot of land.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

No, like huge farms, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Um, 600 and 640 acres.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

Holy shit. That's a lot of me.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

My last name's Acres.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

So they were getting this for free compared to paying, excuse me, excuse me, around$200 for 160 acres in the east.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Oh, wow. That's significant.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Especially the amount of money back then. I'm sorry. Did you say the year we're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Not yet.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

We are um kind of in the 1840s. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:13

That's sound that's what I was thought. I thought it was mid-1800s, but yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

And like I said, this is kind of a generic time frame at this moment. Yes. Overview. Exactly. Look at me go and so shit. Emigrants, those moving from the United States to the Oregon territory? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

They were called emigrants with an E.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

Do you know what the difference between an immigrant and an emigrant is?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Emigrant is moving out of your country. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Immigrant is moving into a new country.

SPEAKER_04 12:55

Look at us go.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

I know.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Math.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Am I right?

SPEAKER_04 13:00

I always just say math. So I like math.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Emigrants typically gathered at um the Missouri River. It was kind of their jumping off point or their starting point.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Why can't I correct you there? I say Missouri. Do you really? No.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

So they would start in Independence Missouri or St. Joseph, Missouri. Okay. And they would kind of gather in early spring.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

And then they would depart in mid-April or early May.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

So they get most of the summer travel?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yes. Okay. Too early meant no grass on the prairies for the oxen.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

Sure. That makes sense. Too late.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

It risked deadly snow in the mountains.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Correct. Yeah. So did they have to cross the Rockies when they did this? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

So travelers would say, quote, leave in May and you'll pray. Leave in June and you're doomed.

SPEAKER_04 14:01

I'm going to start saying that.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

So families often sold farms, possessions to fund their journey. It required about$500 to$1,000 to properly outfit a wagon.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

So you get the wagon, the ox, all your supplies. Yes. All the lanterns, ropes, food, everything, whatever the fuck you would need was about$500 to$1,000. Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

And it was an approximately 2,000 mile trip. Damn. That is an equivalent to between$18 and$40,000 today. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Yes. I mean, that's moving costs. Yep. Do you pay to relocate?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

So immigrants had to purchase everything they needed up front.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

Of course, you know why? Because then they get more money.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Plus tools, supplies to start their new home in Oregon.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Right. So they were promised this swath of land in paradise. In paradise where there's no disease, except for dysentery. They don't know that yet. Stay tuned. Um but obviously they didn't have a house. There's it's not like they're moving into a house, so they would have to build a house when they get there, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_06 15:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

I mean, that makes sense because why would there fucking be a house? It's not like, oh hey, honey, that a new house went on the market. We should be located. Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

So they packed their goods into a single wagon about 11 feet long and four feet wide. I'm gonna readjust my microphone because I feel like it's getting kind of high.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

It is why is it raising up? That's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

I don't maybe I'm lowering myself.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

I was joking.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Okay, great. So these wagons were bulging at the seams. Um, despite Well, because they had to be packed, right? And despite the advice to pack light, many underestimated the journey and overloaded their wagons with furniture and stoves and keepsakes. See, that's where they went wrong. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

Yeah, that that was a bad move because you needed to focus on the essentials, food, um, clothing, clothing, obviously, medical care if you could afford it and/or have it. I mean, I'm not sure if band-aids were around back then, but you know, just whatever stuff like that. Right. Maybe some snake oil. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

So the classic cover covered wagon was the vehicle of choice for this time. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Um I can picture it in my head right now.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, exactly. Um, it needed to be capable of carrying about 2,000 pounds.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Sure, yeah. Makes sense. And was it always just one ox per away? No, no, multiple. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Um, so a typical wagon was a simple wooden box on wheels with no suspension aside from the driver's seat. Okay. So everyone walked alongside the wagons to one, avoid the weight, the added weight, correct. And two, to avoid how jarring it would be inside the wagon.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

Yeah, I can't imagine that was a smooth ride. Yes. Suspension wasn't much of a luxury back then. No. So, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So emigrants overwhelmingly chose oxen to pull the wagons. Sure. So they were slow. They were slow. Two miles per hour on a good day.

SPEAKER_04 17:22

Oh dear, and two thousand yards, two thousand miles they had to go. Two miles, so they had to go a thousand hours.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Ugh.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

That's awful. Gross. Yeah. Terrible.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

But oxen were cheaper than mules, they were less temperamental than horses, and they could live off of prairie glass grass. Glass. That'd be weird.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

That would be strange.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Um typical teams were four to six oxen per wagon.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

I guess I didn't realize it was that many. There's so many. Yeah, I mean, fuck.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

But maybe maybe the number also depended on how many family members were part of a wagon.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

I suppose, yeah. Yeah. And also what they could afford, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

What they could afford, yeah, exactly. Honestly. So emigrants often spent a few weeks camped near the Missouri River breaking their oxen in. Um, basically training these usually like really docile creatures, yeah, yet stubborn, yeah, um, to wear yokes and respond to commands.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

The yokes on them. The yokes on them. Have you seen them? I got I got them up face.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Some of the newbie travelers set out with untrained oxen and learned the really hard way that ox oxen prefer to stand still or come back the way they came.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Fuck this, man. I'm going back there. I mean, I don't blame them. They're pretty simple creatures. So yeah. I I get it.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

But that's another plus.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

They are simple. And and that's part of the reason why they chose them.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

So with no stores, once you left civilization, planning your pantry was a matter matter of life and death.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Lots of flour.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Guidebooks, because there were some at this time. Oh, there were. There were some earlier travelers that would write books and send them back, and people would buy them and read them and take their advice.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

When did Lewis and Clark go west? Was that earlier 1800s?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Right? Crap, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 19:32

Because I feel like they would have already been out there prior to this. We're roughly talking about the 1840s. I feel like they were earlier 1800s. I am drawing a blank though on the years. So I'm curious to see what you come up with here. But I thought it was like 20 to 30 years prior to that. Give or take.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So they the their expedition was around um 1804 through 1806.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

I was thinking 1802. Damn, you were close. Great job. Awesome. Cool. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Okay, so pioneers had these guidebook from earlier settlers. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

And these guidebooks recommended per adult roughly 150 pounds of sh uh flour. Yep. Pardon me. 20 pounds of cornmeal.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

50 pounds of bacon.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

Seems like a little light on the, they should have gone a little heavier on the bacon.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

40 pounds of sugar, 10 pounds of coffee, 15 pounds of dried fruit, and five pounds of salt.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

How did they dry the fruit back then?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Well, they had little dehydrators that they would plug into the outlets.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

You know, at their local 7-Eleven.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

What the fuck? That was not part of my research.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Oh, okay. I was just curious.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Okay, so a family of four might start out with over a thousand pounds of food. Remember, the wagons tried not to exceed 2,000 pounds. I mean, you're already halfway there.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

With just food. Which is an essential.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Not even full food. Ingredients.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Yeah, you still had to make the food.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

You still have to make it.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Um, but I mean, obviously, that is a crucial fucking thing to bring with you because I don't know. People gotta eat.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Oh, by the way, I'm gonna shout out my my my mom. Hey, mom. And her mother. Um, my grandma.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

I say grandma.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yep. Um, I am making Bradley and his wife Sarah, um, my grandmother's sloppy joe recipe tonight. I'm kind of nervous because it's non-traditional.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

It's not made with any barbecue sauce, which is weird. It's very strange. Um, it's made with chicken gumbo soup, and it is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

So my mom makes her sloppy joe's bainly with ketchup as well, not barbecue sauce. So I don't remember how she does it. So this will be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah, I'm excited to share it with you. A little nervous. I understand, but we got you a lot of chips.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Excuse me. Let me finish. I'm a little nervous about the yellow mustard. I am not a fan of the yellow.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Oh, you won't be able to see you won't be able to taste it.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

No, you won't. It's not.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

I better not.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

It's it's literally just for like the tanginess, but no, you won't taste the mustard.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

I've I've I've figured as much, but in my brain, the way my brain works, that's what's making me nervous.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

So, anyways, I look forward to trying it out. And uh and Sarah doesn't know yet. Nope. It will be a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Okay, so these wagons were also crammed with camping gear. We've got tents, we've got bedding, we've got buckets, we've got cooking utensils, we've got iron pots and a Dutch oven, maybe some tin plates, we've got tools like axes and shovels and rope and spare wagon parts, not to mention personal items like earbuds and Bibles. Earbuds? I'm kidding. Musical instruments.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Did they little recorders? There is a little freaking bug flying around here, and I just really want to murder it. God damn. Did they have sleeping bags back then?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

No.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

I didn't think so. What was like the uh just blanket? I mean, what they roll up in a blanket kind of thing? Yeah, like a little piggy in a blanket? Pretty much. Yeah. I like those. Do you ever have those with the hot dogs and roll up and croissants?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I'm sure I have.

SPEAKER_04 23:40

Wow, way to dismiss it.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

But yeah, I I couldn't tell you. I don't have that kind of memory.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

I forgot who I was talking about. I'm paused. Yeah. Apologize.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

So space was so tight that even like the the a modest item had to justify its weight.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

I mean, that makes sense. When you got a pretty much a capacity of 2,000 pounds, yeah, typically on a family of four, like you said, there were bigger families than four.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Mostly walking, but but no, but I'm just talking about the food could be anywhere up to a thousand pounds already.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

So half your fucking weight for this wagon, even with four to six oxen, is taken up.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Say wagon again.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Wagon.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Why is that funny? Because you said the A, like I would say the A, not like a Wisconsinite. A wagon.

SPEAKER_04 24:33

Wagon?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah. I say wagon. I hear a lot of Wisconsinites say wagon.

SPEAKER_04 24:38

I say wagon.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

You do. That's why I asked you to repeat it, but then you said wagon.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

I'm gonna take my wagon to Oregon.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Another popular item that they carried were water barrels on the sides of the wagon. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

I mean, you need water. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Some folks even tied a milk cow to the behind the wagon for fresh milk.

SPEAKER_04 25:01

Tow along, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

And somehow had um chickens in little coops that they would bring for fresh eggs.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

They should have tied those around the cow.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

That might be a fun ride for them.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

Hanging on each side, you know?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah, for sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

They probably pecked the shit out of the sides of the cow.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So many of these emigrants arm themselves with these guidebooks, right? Yeah. Um, some useful, some very misleading.

SPEAKER_04 25:26

See, that's the problem. So even back then, you know, look at how many like false news and all that whatever shit you want to call it today. They had that back then too. Yeah. Because these people wrote sensational things, and people fucking believe.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

And that's a great way of putting it. Very sensational things. Yes. So there was one infamous example.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Um, it was from a man named Lansford Hastings, and he wrote the book Emigant's Gr Guide to Oregon Oregon in California in 1845.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

He recommended a shortcut south of the Great Salt Lake in 1846. The Donner Party followed this advice.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Into a literal dead end.

SPEAKER_04 26:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Hastings, the writer, had never actually traveled his shortcut before. See, what a dick. Yeah. And it turned out to be impassable. So the Donner Party, if the followers do not know, um, they were snowbound in Sierra Nevada, um, with many of their party perishing.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

And then people eating.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

And to survive, they had to resort to some cannibalism. Correct. So huge warning on these little shh shortcuts.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Yeah, maybe not, you know, do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Yeah. So emigrants quickly learned that there is safety in numbers. So families b banded together to form wagon trains.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

So it's like, hey, we know the Smiths real good. Hey, Smiths, you want to go to Oregon?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

See, I said it right.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

These groups also consisted of relatives, neighbors, and folks from the same town. You know, just we don't really know you, but you're from Mark.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Okay, we're we're in close proximity. Yeah. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

So most wagon trains elected a captain. Oh. Um, occasionally by vote, but um, they in essence drafted rules for the journey.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

So I mean, it makes sense because you gotta follow some rules to make it there safer.

Idaho Hardships And The Blue Mountains

SPEAKER_00 27:39

It was important. It was common to agree on a daily travel schedule, quiet hours at night, and how to handle disputes.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

All that shit, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, no, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Many of them actually wrote constitutions as well.

SPEAKER_04 27:53

Wow, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

One company, uh travel train, um, forbade profanity and firearm misuse, obviously misuse, but but if but if it's used right, continue. Another laid out rotation for standing guard at night. Nearly all had rules about camping, where to graze the animals, and restrictions on gambling and drinking to keep order.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

And penalties could be um imposed for breaking rules, and provisions were also made to care for six member sick members or handle the property of anyone who had died.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

So each wagon train was like a little miniature traveling community, yeah. Democracy on wheels. Yeah. Um and hooves. And even with these rules, frictions did arise. But overall, these like little improvised governments helped strangers like cooperate in this weird, uncertain time.

SPEAKER_04 28:51

And get through it to good old Oregon. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

So the trail stretched approximately 2,000 miles from the Missouri River to Oregon's Willamette Valley, which is right on the um coast.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

So you say the Missouri River, like which point of the Missouri River?

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Many of them jump off at St. Joseph, Missouri.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

That's right. You did mention that. Okay, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

That's right. So wagon trains typically covered about 15 to 20 miles a day, taking about four to six months to complete the whole journey. It's wild. It's a long time.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

No kidding.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

And the route spanned prairies, deserts, mountain ranges. Yep. Um, and but each little section of the trail, there was a little landmark that they would look forward to seeing. Because that meant they were just that much closer. So I'll tell you a couple. Okay. So we'll start with the Missouri, the Missouri River, the jumping off point. Yeah. Um, it began at towns like um Independence and St. Joe.

SPEAKER_05 29:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

And they waited there till spring, crossing the Missouri View. A ferry and officially leaving the frontier.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

So would they like gather all their stuff, get there like we're a couple months early.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Let's wait until so they get so they get there, then they gather all their provisions while they're there. That's when they're training their oxen.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Oh, I gotcha. Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

They're packing for for six months. That can take a lot of additional time.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

Especially back then. That makes sense. And then they're getting everything ready. They need to acquire all the flour and training their oxen, like you said, so on and so forth. And then when spring showed up, they would go, okay, I gotcha. I gotcha. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

So um a common starting date was around April 20th through May 1st.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Oh, Hitler's birthday.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Which was what? May 1st?

SPEAKER_04 30:52

April 20th.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Oh, 420. I knew that. Yep. Okay. So then we have the Kansas and Platte River Valley. Okay. So for the first few hundred miles, wagon trains followed river valleys. Yeah. Um, the Kansas River and then the Platte River.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

And that is in Kansas, and the Platte River is in Nebraska.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Oh, it is. Oh, I knew that. Yeah. Yeah, I knew that.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

The Platte River Valley was famously flat, very broad.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

Well, it's Nebraska.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

And very monotonous.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

Yeah. You've you've lived you've been from Nebraska before.

unknown 31:27

I have.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

One stretch was nicknamed the Long Green Tunnel because tall grasses bordered the trail for miles.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

But the train was easy. Um, but emigrants contended with swampy areas, um, swarms of gnats and mosquitoes because of how wet it is.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

And the stink of buffalo droppings because we're in the plains. There's buffalo everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

And at this point, there still is buffalo. So was there an actual trail? Yes. There was. Okay. And this is from previous explorers, if you will. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

They they encountered Chimney Rock. Chimney Rock. It is in western Nebraska. Yeah. It is a rock spire that emigrants said looked like a ch church steeple rising from the prairie.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

Oh, how cute is that?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

This is one of their milestones. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

It's like, hey, look at what look at folks.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

And kids. Chimney Rock signaled that Fort Laramie in Wyoming was not far off. Can you say chimney again? Chimney? Okay. What?

SPEAKER_04 32:41

Chiminy?

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Chiminy?

SPEAKER_04 32:43

Sounds like Chimney. It sounds like Jiminy. Like Jiminy Cricket.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

I did say Chiminy, but yeah, chimney rock.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Chimney Cricket.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

So Chimney Cricket.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

That's so great.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Chimney Cricket.

Final Obstacles: Columbia Or Barlow Road

SPEAKER_04 33:07

So people are gonna listen to us and be like, I think they've gone mad. Jiminy Cricket. Alright, so two questions here.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

My mom is from Michigan. She's called a Michigander. I'm from Wisconsin. We're called Wisconsinites. What are Nebraska people called?

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Nebraskan.

SPEAKER_04 33:36

That's literally it? Okay. So you being a Nebraskan in your family. Yeah. Have you been to Chimney Rock?

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Oh my.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

Um that you can recall?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I want to say the answer is yes, because seeing pictures of Chimney Rock, I I have a little bit of a recollection. That seems familiar. But I don't know if it's because I was there or I've just seen an image before. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

I get that. Just curious, being, you know, obviously from there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Um Chimney Rock is north of I-80, which is the the interstate, the only interstate.

SPEAKER_04 34:17

Trust me, I've been out there a lot going out to Colorado.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yeah, so it's it's um north of that. Um not not too far off. Not too far off.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

But and and this is towards the the west end of Nebraska. Okay. So yes. Because like, because you get I-80 goes into Wyoming, and then it's I-707. Oh, I don't know. That goes into towards Colorado. Six?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

That might be right.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

We're not going to Colorado.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

I want to go to Colorado.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

So Chimney Rock.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

Hold please. Shout out. Sarah's from Wyoming.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Oh, is she?

SPEAKER_04 34:54

Yeah. She lived there like the first six years of her life.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Do you know what town?

SPEAKER_04 34:57

Uh Gillette. Don't know. I didn't ask if you did.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

So about a third of the way through their trip, about 500 miles in, they can they reach Fort Laramie in Wyoming.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

Okay. Okay. And that's pretty much I know I've heard of Fort Laramie. That's pretty much on the east, the east coast of Wyoming. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah. So that's like their second landmark.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

So Chimony Cricket is the first one, and then Fort Laramie was the second one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Now Fort Laramie was um, it used to be a fur trading post. Sure. Um, but now was a major resupply point. So emigrants could buy supplies at gouged prices.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Well, why wouldn't they gouge them? Yeah. It's like, hey, there's nothing for literally miles. Um you want some flour? You're gonna pay our prices. Yeah. And they're like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

So they could also send letters home. They could, um, there were they could hear news from other travelers about what they might have at head.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Hey man, I ran into a fucking bear.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Steer clear of that. Right. So um was I just fuck, was I just gonna ask? Did they have the Pony Express at this time? Is that how they got the letters? So okay. Yeah, I think so. I mean, that would make sense, but I don't know, I don't remember when that was established and so on. But I mean, I would think at this point they do.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Um so the Pony Express was around 1860 to 1861. So we may be a little bit sooner. This may be a little bit early to Pony Express.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

But that's good to know.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Um, so Fort Laramie also was called camp sacrifice because at this point they sacrifice people to the gods, many wagons were so overloaded, people started dumping their possessions to lighten the load.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

So it's kind of like a weird old goodwill. Yes, or uh uh an antique store, like hey, get your wares here.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

So you would see furniture and trunks and cook stoves because they finally realized pianos, people would bring pianos. What the fuck is wrong with people?

SPEAKER_04 37:12

Seriously, why the fuck would you bring a piano?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

They would also use Fort Laramie as a resting point.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

So would they like camp out there for like a week or two or something? Yeah, just to kind of rest up or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah, and they would allow their oxen to go grazing, stuff like that.

Daily Life On The Trail

SPEAKER_04 37:28

Do they have collars so they could tell the oxen apart?

SPEAKER_00 37:31

I think they had ear tags.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

I mean, that's a common thing. They branded back then too, though.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yeah, I don't know about the ear tags. That was just sarcasm.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

I'm being serious about the branding. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Okay, so.

SPEAKER_04 37:45

Do you want to know what's really tragic?

SPEAKER_00 37:47

You're out of beer.

SPEAKER_04 37:48

No, my next one's so far.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Look at your ingenuity.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

Look at me go.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

So, rolling into central Wyoming, emigrants aim to reach Independence Rock. It was a large granite outcrop by the Sweetwater River.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

I've heard that.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

They wanted to be there by Independence Day, July 4th. Oh, sure. And many did and celebrated. They would fire guns in the air, which we all know don't do. They would sing patriotic songs. They would paint. They would even paint or carve their names into this giant rock.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Um, and the rock was given the nickname the Great Register of the Desert. That rock is still there. I don't know if the name was gonna ask.

SPEAKER_04 38:36

Okay. Yeah. I'm sure it's worn over to it.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Historical marker, everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

Historical document.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

So beyond that lays the South Pass.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

The South Pass, okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

It is the gentle continental divide crossing the Rocky Mountains.

SPEAKER_04 38:55

Why was it gentle?

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Gentle continental divide.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

So, unlike the steep, narrow passes farther north, yeah, the south pass offered a more broad, gradual ascent. So that one's gentle, okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

Well, you could have just said that and said, I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Wagons could easily cross the Rockies here. Right. Um, a lot of times they wouldn't even know that they were at their highest point.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

Oh, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Because the road was so gradual, it was so just yeah, even.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Yeah. So, because I mean, so clearly this is in Wyoming, so they're north of Colorado, which I've driven through a lot. I've been to Wyoming, I haven't gone through the Rockies. I've driven up parallel to the Rockies into Wyoming, but I've never actually driven over the yeah. Over the Rockies in Wyoming. I'm not sure if Sarah has or not, but um yeah, I mean there are some uh pretty crazy passes, obviously, in Colorado, so I I'm just I I don't know Wyoming. Yeah, I don't either. So I just I I wonder how hard and tumultuous this travel was.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

So okay, so after the South Pass, the trail split. Okay. Now we're talking about Fort Hall, Idaho.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Fort Hall.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Fort Hall in present-day Idaho. At the time, Idaho wasn't a thing.

SPEAKER_04 40:28

No, so not no potato potatoes yet.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

So those bound for California went veered south on the California trail. Makes sense, yeah. Oregon emigrants continue northwest.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

So Fort Hall in present-day Iowa, Idaho. It was another like formal trading post, and it was a welcome stop, but it offered far less supplies.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

So I do remember uh people who will not be named, but uh her sister had a shirt and it had the outline of Idaho. I said Idaho, no Utah.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

I've heard that joke.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

So it's not a joke, it's a shirt. Such a great shirt, though. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

So yeah, emigrants entering this this part of the trail faced kind of a tough haul along the Snake River. Okay. The stretch was hot, it was dry, and it was arduous, and they called it the Great American Desert.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Okay, so all the way up in Idaho? That's I guess I never didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

So many journals along the trail recounted this portion of late summer as the most difficult with oppressive heat by day and like choking dust.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

Oh, I oh, and I bet it's really cold at night if it's desert. I didn't realize they had that that far north. I've never been to Idaho or pre or post-Idaho, whatever you want to call it. Um, I've never been in that re I've never been to the Pacific Northwest, which is kind of depressing. I really want to go.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:06

Just check it out. Um, not sure, don't really want to go to Portland with everything going on there, but um wouldn't mind going up to Washington state. Uh, but I've I didn't know that they had like desertish area up there. That's weird. Where do they grow the potatoes?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

So another landmark in Idaho was Fort Boise, and just one more like you know, box they can check, like, okay, here's the next landmark.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

So was Boise was a a place at this time?

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Oh it was a fort, like an army fort.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

And that that's the capital of Idaho, is it? I think so. I believe so. I am terrible at capitals. I know Madison. Did you know Madison is named after James Madison? James Madison? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

I mean, I could have put two and two together.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

I never actually knew that. I literally just ever learned this a week ago, and I've lived in the state for 46 fucking years. Yeah, I think it was James Madison. And he the guy who like created Madison basically he did that to give it a little more clout that was named after a former president. Like, really? Is this true? I did not investigate.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

So now we're crossing into the Oregon territory. Yes. Pioneers encountered the Blue Mountains. It was a series of forested ranges that they had to climb and descend in September.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

So the Blues were physically one of the most challenging parts of the trek. Okay. It was steep, there were narrow trails all through like pine forest. Sure. Um, wagons had to be locked wheel by wheel with chains for descent.

SPEAKER_04 43:49

So so it'd slow it down, so it wouldn't just go fucking.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

And of course, oxen really strained on the ascent.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

But they were a little bit on the descent.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah, exactly. Um, but on the other side lay this the last leg of this journey.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Okay. So and how many, I'm sorry if you said this, if I missed it, but how many miles are we at on this trek so far?

SPEAKER_00 44:14

I did not. Okay. Um, but this is towards the very end. They are now in Oregon.

SPEAKER_04 44:19

So they're probably at least 1,500 to 1700 miles kind of kind of range-ish. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

So many emigrants paused at another landmark called the Whitman Mission. Whitman mission. Mm-hmm. Okay. Near the base of the blues to rest.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

And this was prior to going up, or this was at the other side.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

This is the other side. Gotcha. Okay. This is towards the last part of the journey.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

No, I get I just I'm sorry. I just no, you're fine. Didn't know if you meant down the mountain.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

So Whitman mission will come up in our second part. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

So in the final stretch, emigrants had two choices. Okay. Raft down the Columbia River. That sounds terrible. Or take the overland Barlow Road around Mount Hood.

SPEAKER_04 45:10

I've heard of Mount Hood, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Have you?

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Oh yeah.

Break And Tone Shift To Disease

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Cool. Yeah. So the Columbia route was quicker, but more perilous. Sure. Pioneers would build log rafts to float wagons and livestock downstream.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

That sounds fucking horrible.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Sounds awful.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

Because your shit falls apart. Your dying life falls apart.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Many immigrant boats wrecked.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Loss of life was high. Yeah, it was high. Very high. The Barlow Road, by contrast, allowed wagons to continue overland through the Cascade Mountains south of Mount Hood. Okay. But it was rugged and took a toll.

SPEAKER_05 45:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Whether by the raft or road, this was pretty much the last obstacle that they would overcome by October.

SPEAKER_04 46:03

That they would have to face. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

The official end of the Oregon Trail was Oregon City near present-day Portland.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

Oh, okay. Is Oregon City still a thing?

SPEAKER_00 46:16

I don't know. I didn't look that up.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

That's okay. I mean.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Yes, it's the same. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

It still is. It's still there. Okay. I I mean, that was literally almost 200 years ago. So things changed.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

It is like a suburb south of Portland.

SPEAKER_04 46:35

Okay. So was Portland a thing at this time? Is it?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

I think this whole area was just becoming like up and coming.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Well, right, because you know, I mean they literally refer to it as how did it get the name the Oregon Territory? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

That wasn't part of my research, Bradley.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

Alright, so we're coming up to something city. What city again?

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Um, Oregon City, Oregon City, which is um like a current suburb of Portland.

SPEAKER_04 47:09

Modern day Portland.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Gotcha.

Invisible Killers: Cholera And Dysentery

SPEAKER_00 47:10

So emigrants were travel worn, they were nearly broken. They finally saw this green, rain-soaked land of Oregon that they all had been dreaming of. Um they found no disease. The jersey, the journey's end was joys joyful but sobering because a lot of families lost a lot of people, lost a lot of people, they lost animals, they lost possessions.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

They were killed, they were robbed. Yeah. They they got dysentery up in here.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

And then with winter looming it right ahead, they still had to build their houses.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

That's the thing. They got there in sub this is October. September. September, October. Alright, cool. Hey man, let's take a breather. Uh no, dude, winter's coming.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Fucking stark this shit. Winter's coming.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Winter's coming.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

Um, direwolves are coming down from the north. We gotta build this shit.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

White walkers are coming.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

We have we have to build this house. Yeah. Well, that was a juicy. Bang bang shrimp. Am I right? Holy balls. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

He had bang bang shrimp for lunch.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

It was fucking delicious.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

So still reaching Oregon was a huge accomplishment.

SPEAKER_04 48:34

Well, sure. I mean, look at the look at how far they had to go. Again, two m two miles per hour?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

That is awful. I can walk that fast.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Which is what they did. They walked. Well. But they many of them said, quote, there is not a soul here, but has some peculiarity to remind us of the hard trip. A missing finger, a scar, a cough. But we are alive in Oregon.

SPEAKER_04 49:08

So, all right. They were promised 640 acres. Is that correct? Did I get the number correct? Did they have these like laid out?

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I don't know what the situation is. I don't know if they took all 640 acres because even women were offered some acres.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

Wow, that is progressive.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

I know. So well, I mean, it is Portland. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

But I mean, what next? We're gonna let them vote.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

What?

SPEAKER_04 49:34

What the fuck? So I the re the reason for my question is um it's uh it's not like they have someone at the the border like welcome.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

This section right here 640 acres?

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Yeah, that is yours. Yeah, welcome. Yours is right here, you know. So it's like I wonder, I just wonder how they oh a new family?

SPEAKER_00 49:55

We have to walk over these 640 acres to get to your 640 acres.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Excuse me, we're just gonna cut through here real quick. But you know, you know what I mean though?

SPEAKER_04 50:04

Because it's like, how do how did they um I don't know, determine was it like they started at the back, and the you know, you come here, you go here, and then they start moving forward as they fill it up, and they'd be like, I'm sorry, we're all full here. It's like what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Go to Portland, will you?

SPEAKER_04 50:25

I mean, fentanyl, am I right?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Fentanyl. Okay, let's keep going. Go to Portland. So life on the the Oregon Trail was obviously very unpredictable, very tough, yes. Yes, but they tried to have a semblance of normalcy and a pattern. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

I used to work with a guy who used the word semblance so fucking much. Really? Yeah, it was weird. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

So a typical day started before sunrise around 4 or 5 a.m. Damn. The camp was roused by a bugle, a rifle shot, or something through it. One diarist wrote, quote, We rise while their stars are sparkling.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

Well, yeah, you're getting up fucking early.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Yeah, they need to get moving early to cover miles before the heat.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

Correct. Yes. Yeah, especially in that Idaho desert.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

So breakfast was usually quick and cold.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Yesterday's coffee hearttack, which is what the flour was used for, or potential leftovers unless the family woke up extra early to fry some bacon.

SPEAKER_04 51:34

Which a lot of times they probably didn't do because they were fucking deadass tired. So they had to get their sleep and be like, hey man, cold breakfast.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

So by 7 a.m., wagons were rolling. Wagons. They would trudge along for maybe five hours and then noon or nooning. Take a break. Basically taking a break around the noon hour. Sure, makes sense. So at this time they gave the animals water, a little rest, and folks ate a cold lunch, hard tech biscuits with bread and cheese, or perhaps what is hard tech? It's it's almost like really steel crackers.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

Really? Because I've heard that before. Uh the the most the thing that comes to me the most is I believe they say it at some point in sea biscuit. And I had never really understood what exactly what hard tech was.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Yeah, it's basically just a hard biscuit. It's literally flour, water, water, maybe a little bit of salt.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Gotcha. Yeah, there's not much to it. Unless you're Kate and Nathan, a lot of salt. A lot of salt.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

So this the nooning hour. Yeah, one traveler wrote, quote, nooning is for the oxen's benefit, not ours. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 52:51

Give them a break, right? Because I mean, like you said, they've already been going for five plus hours at this time.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

So after an hour or two, the train would move on. Okay. Come late afternoon, four or five o'clock. They looked for a suitable camping spot. So ideally near water, grass, and fuel, which was wood or buffalo chips.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Poop.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Poop. Dung.

SPEAKER_04 53:20

Poop. There it is. Crap.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Poop.

SPEAKER_04 53:23

Oh, crap.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Shit.

SPEAKER_04 53:26

Excrement. Trying to come up with other words. Yeah, I got nothing else.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Poop.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Poop. It's poop.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

Poop. There it is.

Accidents: Guns, Wagons, And Rivers

SPEAKER_00 53:33

So they formed a wagon circle or a line in the night and unyoked the stock, letting them graze under their watch.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

I'm a big fan of unyoking.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

If you think pioneers would sit around the campfire singing and all smiles, no, they were busy. So busy. Yep. Um, chores began immediately after stopping.

SPEAKER_04 54:01

Well, they had to because I mean you literally have limited fucking time, especially when it's getting a little bit later in the year. You get a little bit less. I mean, September, October, you still get a decent amount of light, obviously, but you got limited fucking time to do shit.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Men tended to the animals. They would unhitch the oxen, leading them to water and grass. Um, they would milk the cows if there were any. Right. They would set up guards to ensure the herd wouldn't stray overnight or even get stolen overnight. Yep. Um, women would set up camp, they would fetch water, they would gather whatever fuel could potentially be available. Yep. They would get these fires started, they would start cooking supper. So basically, just endless chores. Yeah. So on the treeless plains, firewood was obviously scarce. So this meant they would go hunting for dried buffalo dung.

SPEAKER_04 54:57

Well, it's a good fuel source.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

It is buffalo chips. So gathering chips was usually assigned to children. Um, one woman described, quote, various chip gatherers may be seen bag in hand, intent on getting enough to cook the evening meal. Right. A scene that would be amusing if it were not a dire necessity, which drives them to it.

SPEAKER_04 55:21

Yeah, no, I get that.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Another pioneer noted with a uh little bit of humor, um, saying that many women who once wore gloves to tea parties were now picking up buffalo dung with bare hands.

SPEAKER_04 55:36

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

So trail cooking was rustic, it was repetitive, it was just an awful experience to say the least.

SPEAKER_04 55:47

Um well, they had the bare minimum. They literally had to just like we're not gonna put out the fine train tonight, folks.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Right. In the mornings, if time and fuel allowed, they might do like a quick hot breakfast with cornmeal, mush, or coffee. Mostly it was cold. Sure. Um, during the evening meal, women would mix up dough for bread or biscuits, um, fried bacon, salt pork, and boiled beans or rice.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

Yeah. Red beans and rice didn't miss her.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

What?

SPEAKER_04 56:19

Baby got back.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Oh bacon grease was like liquid gold. It was used to fry cakes or gravy on bread.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

I love gravy.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

If the camp had fresh meat from bison or deer or antelope, if someone was a good shot, they treated that as a luxury. Yep. So emigrants did find wild game to be tough or game, gamey. Um, one group had the chance of tasting this long-wished buffalo, buffalo meat, but admitted, quote, we do not relish it, relish it as well as we had expected. Is very much like beef.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

Well, I mean, that's more or less what it was, basically.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

On special days, they might have some dried fruit pies, um, or they would like had this bread fried and bacon fat as a treat, basically.

SPEAKER_04 57:16

So if there's dried fruit pies, is there wet fruit pies?

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, that'd be like a cherry pie or a peach pie.

SPEAKER_04 57:25

Blueberry.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Blueberry. Strawberry. Exactly. So um after supper, there were still tasks to be done, cleaning up the dishes.

SPEAKER_04 57:40

They had to clean up everything, they had to secure the camp. Because a lot of times, and I think you I think I believe you briefly mentioned this, like, especially because they were in these groups, these little communities, if you will, on wheels, they would like create a circle and they would camp in the middle, because that circle almost created a perimeter, yeah, which helped protect, secure them, but they also had people watching out.

SPEAKER_06 58:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

All right, you take watch from blah blah blah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Um, at after supper, they would also kind of tend to any repairs that might be needed. Sure. Um, wagons constantly needed attention, whether it was a loose iron tire, a cracked wheel, a worn yoke. Yep. Men might spend twilight hours under the wagon, tightening bolts or greasing axles.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Just keeping it up to up to running condition, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Women um use the evening to mend clothes, do some washing. Um, children, if they had any energy, might play a little bit. Yeah. Um, but on many nights after such grueling conditions, pioneers simply collapsed.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

Well, because they're fucking exhausted. This this is even though it sounds like, oh, this is fun. No, this was fucking exhausting work. Because again, like you said, most people were walking next to their fucking wagon because they had so much shit in it.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Even when they dropped it off at what was the Fort Fort Laramie there, um camp sacrifice, camp sacrifice when they dropped it off there.

SPEAKER_04 59:16

They you know the unnecessary shit that they realized we shouldn't have brought this with. We can we can build a new one in the promised land or whatever. But um they're fucking tired, man.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

They're tired.

SPEAKER_04 59:29

I just I can't imagine doing that. Sound like walking to my mailbox.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

So most did not sleep in their wagons, right? Um, usually they save that if the weather was bad, but wagons were already cramped and packed with supplies. Only small children or the very ill might be inside sleeping.

SPEAKER_04 59:51

That makes sense. It's not like you're gonna unpack your fucking wagon every night. No. Because how much wasted time is that? Yeah. So yeah, so you don't have a lot of room. So unless you were. Desperately in need of it, like you said, a sick person or children because they're smaller. Sure, I get that, but no, not the adults, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

So um, one pioneer child recounted saying that they were allowed to sleep under the wagon and it felt cozy and safe.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:18

I'm sure it did more than just out in the open because you had liter literally a roof over your head for the most part. Right. Just didn't have walls.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Um, other diarists would note like the discomfort of bugs and snakes and lumpy grounds and but exhaustion was upon everybody. Sure. Um, someone always had to be on night watch. Yep. Guards took shifts to keep an eye on the livestock and alert the camp of any trouble if there was like a wandering oxen or wolves or maybe a prairie fire.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Or a villain.

Weather, Stampedes, And Ferries

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Potentially. Um but there was also a little romance too. There were a couple snaps. There were a couple people who got found each other. Yeah. They found each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:09

Um how many kids were born on this trek?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Well, in my in the next part, we do have one child that is born on the Oregon Trail in my story.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

Okay, so how many more than the one?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

Bradley, I did not include that in my research.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:23

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

So the sheer boredom of walking 2,000 miles cannot be overstated.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

I would walk.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Some would read as they walked if they had the books or if they could trade with other people who might have books.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:41

I'm sure trading went on a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Others kept diaries, children made toys out of whatever was handy. Yep. Um, stick horses and ragdolls and rolling hoops, you know. Um, singing was really big, storytelling by the elders. Nice. Um, they would try to crack jokes and pull little pranks and try to stay cheerful.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:05

Stay cheerful.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:07

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

We are now halfway through.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:13

Is this where we we stop?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:17

Oh. Is this a fucking three-parter?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

We're only halfway through this episode. Yeah. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

I need more beer.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

Are you serious?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Yes, I'm serious.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

You said this was a two-parter.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

I wasn't expecting all the commentary, but I love the commentary. So we could turn this into a three-parter if you wanted to. We might have to. The Oregon Trail is 2,000 miles long. How can I fit this in a single episode?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

Shut the fuck up and get to the facts. Oh my god, you're only halfway through this episode. And this is the first part of part whatever. I say whatever because it clearly could be three parts. I want to cry and I don't cry.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:20

I haven't cried since I was like a kid. I need more beer.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Let's take a little break.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:27

We'll be right back. Shout out to Adam Ray.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

We're back.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Uh he's got food in his mouth.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:38

Racism, all right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

And we also turned on the light because we realized it was getting dark in here. So okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:45

Wow. Wait to wait, wait to wait.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

We're going to go into now the invisible killers.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

Dysentery.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Yes. So the Oregon Trail earned a reputation as a camp fever nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:08

Camp fever nightmare, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

So it was disease, not Native American attacks, wild animals, each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:18

It was just literally disease. Disease. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

The worst of all was cholera.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

It was a waterborne illness.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

Isn't there a movie andor book called Love in a Time of Cholera?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Perhaps.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:31

I believe there is.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

Cholera would strike really quickly. One description said it could attack a healthy man after breakfast and have him in his grave by nightfall.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:43

What was cholera? Like, not what was? What is cholera? Like, what is it? What is it?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

So it's water. Uh it's from water, like bad water.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Um, it caused vomiting, diarrhea, and severe dehydration. That sounds fucking terrible. And during the epidemic years. So are you telling me I had cholera last week? Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:09

I joke.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

Um during the epidemic years, which were um late 1840s into the early 1850s. Okay, cholera killed thousands on the trail. Oh, I bet. One historian estimates about 4,000, nope, 4% of all Oregon Trail emigrants died, who died en route.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:34

Died of cholera.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Died of cholera.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:37

So do they have a rough number of how many people went on this journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

Sorry, I think I re said that wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:48

Rewind.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

4,000 of all deaths. No. Why do we keep saying thousand? Four percent. Kate. Four percent. Four percent of all Oregon Trail emigrants died in route.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Okay, period.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:07

No four thousand. Four percent.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Four percent. Nine out of the ten deaths were from cholera. Were from cholera.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

Wow. Okay. So of four percent, there's a thousand. I mean, that's not bad. Right?

Native Peoples: Trade, Treaties, And Reality

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

I mean poor sanitation was the root cause. Wagging camps took water from rivers that were also used as open sewers. Well, I mean How could you not? It's it's rough out there. People got a piss, right? The Platte River in particular was described as a very muddy stream. Um, basically a pint of mud would come out of one pail of water. Oh, gross. And pioneers would try to settle the water with um with different things, but it was still always filthy.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

They tried to like did they know they clean it, but did they know back in those times that you boil water to like sterilize it? I don't think so. Okay. Or at least maybe they didn't, I don't know. Either way.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Dysentery.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:11

Yeah, which is the common death on the game.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Severe diarrhea, often from bad water or s or spoiled food.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:21

Do you think they went diarrhea? Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

So it was so common on the trail that it became the popular game phrase. You've died. You have died of dysentery.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

Dysentery. I mean, I I can't tell you how many times I died of dysentery in that game.

unknown 1:07:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:44

It was a very, very common outcome of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

We should look into the card game.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:52

I kind of want to try and find an old emulator that has that game too that we could fucking play it. Yeah. I might have to look into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Xavier, I think, would like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:00

He might. He'll probably get frustrated. He doesn't want to die of dysentery. Am I right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

He does. Okay. So there was also typhoid fever.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:10

Typhoid, I've heard of that, yeah. Smallpox. Oh, at least it wasn't big pox.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Measles.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:16

Fucking measles.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

And scurvy.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

Pirates were a part of our problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Do you know what scurvy is?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:24

It shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:25

It's a certain vitamin deficiency.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

Yeah, isn't it like vitamin D C?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

Vitamin C.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

Vitamin C deficiency.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

So medical knowledge was primitive at best. Treatments range from bleeding to dosing with opium to mercury compounds.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:46

Sounds terrible. Yeah. Like they wouldn't do that today.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Cholera victims were frequently just buried on the trail almost where they fell as the wagon train just had to move on.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:57

Well, they couldn't linger.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Yeah. One immigrant in 1850 wrote, No grave markers, no prayers, we had to leave them by the wayside.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:06

That's crazy. Could you imagine having you're like, well, there goes Pops?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

So the cumulative toll, one estimate often cited, is 20 to 30,000 trail deaths in the overland migration years.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

Earning the trail, the moniker quote, the nation's longest graveyard with an average of 10 graves per mile.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:34

I mean, like you said, they had to bury them where they pretty much died. So I mean, you can't really like dispute that. That's that's fucking crazy. I mean, it makes sense though. Look at the time frame, look at the medicine, look at those I don't want to say the hygiene. The hygiene, the situation, whatever you want to fucking all come up with. But it wasn't great.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

No. So dysentery and other related diarrhea illnesses became some trail humor, which we know now.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:14

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Yes. Sufferers had to like dash into the bushes repeatedly while they're walking. Um, it was mortifying, it was miserable. Um, there was dehydration and electric light loss. Um, of course, they didn't know that. At the time, you know. Yeah, some tried quote unquote cures, like drinking blackberry tea or chewing on burnt bread crusts. Some swore by like a hefty dose of opium to slow like gut spasms. None of it obviously cured the disease. Nope. Um, if someone survived, it was mainly by luck and what little care they could get. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:57

No, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

So if disease spared you, yeah, the Oregon Trail still offered many a way to die, much like 50 or a million ways to die in the West by Seth McFarland. Such a great movie. Such great, great, great, great movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:13

Neil Patrick Harris, uh, Charlize Thuron. Amanda Safe Reed. I love her. She's quite fetching. Um, also, she is, she's very pretty girl. Um I don't like her first name, but whatever. We'll look past it. Um, and also uh uh fucking Liam Neeson.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

Thank you. Jesus Christ. So great. Okay. Fi firearm accidents.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:43

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

They were unfortunately kind of frequent. Really? Mm-hmm. One emigrant said that there were probably more bullets in people than in game.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:54

Oh. How did they shoot so many people?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

So wagons jostling over like rough terrain caused loaded guns to bounce or or fall, sometimes discharging. One of the earliest trail fatalities was a man ironically named John John Shotwell.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:18

Are you fucking kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:21

He died in 1841. He reached for a rifle um that was muzzle up in a wagon, caught the trigger, and blasted himself in the chest.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:33

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

Guns would also go off during cleaning or when children foolishly played with them. In 1850, an emigrant pistol went off in his pocket, shattering his jaw and killing him. Oh shit. Another man accidentally shot himself through the through the side while hunting and bled like a hog, it was said. Shot him through the side? Like his side somehow. Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:01

Bled like a hog.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

And because nearly everyone carried firearms for fear of Native Americans at the time or the desire to hunt game, few had experience, and they would shoot themselves on accident.

Wrap-Up And Tease Of The Sager Family

SPEAKER_04 1:13:17

What is your stance on calling them Native American as opposed to American Indian?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

This my whole story, I write Indian. Yeah. Because that is what they were referred to as then. So as I'm saying it, I want to say Native American. Which is fine. But that is a me thing. That's a you thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:37

So, like me growing up, I am part American Indian. And I, yes, I do say American Indian because that's what I grew up saying. I don't say it derogatory, I don't say anything. I am literally part American Indian. I have a hard time calling them Native American. I try to do that when I, you know, I guess certain context. Context crowd, whatever you want to call it. Oh, okay. Like, I don't take offense to it. And I'm again, I am minimal, so it's not like I'm like, oh well, I'm not offended. Not that at all. I am not. I am very, very minimal percent of uh a Native American. But um it just I don't know. Like the whole like Washington Redskins debacle and now they're the commanders because of that. I feel like they're just taken away from them more than they're actually helping them.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:30

So I get that. Either way, I was just curious, and then again, to each their own. Everyone has their own opinion on it, and I'm not trying to be a political thing with what I'm saying currently. It's just that I I grew up calling them American Indians, and that's what I am very minimal.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

But anyways, so if it wasn't gunshots and it wasn't disease, then it was wagons.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

They ran over people? Yes, are you fucking serious? Yes, they they literally moved two miles per hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

I know a wag they said, quote, a wagon wheel never stopped for a child. Well, so kids playing around the wagon, yes, children often fell from wagons or slipped under wheels while climbing on moving wagons, which they did a lot. They would get in and out of moving wagons so it just never stopped, right? The wagon train never stopped.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:22

Why would it?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:23

And adults too would stumble and fall over and get run over. Oh my god. Um, a pioneer named Edward Lennox wrote Pardon me. That's all right, wrote, quote, a little boy fell over the front of the of the excuse me, the front end of the wagon, the great wheels rolled over the child's head, crushing it to pieces. End quote.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Oh my god. That's gotta be the fucking depressing.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Yes. Um, obviously these accidents were devastating. Others were crushed between wagons during hitching or had limbs mangled if wagons tipped over. Oh boy. So getting off or on a wagon was treacherous. Common was a common source of injury.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

A woman's skirt would get caught in a wagon's um lever as she would dismount, pulling her under the wheel and killing her instantly.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:18

Oh my god.

Closing Credits And Calls To Action

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

And then, of course, for every fatality, there were more broken bones and dislocations and I'm sure, you know, there's a death here, broken arm here, broken leg there, yeah, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:32

Yeah, I can only imagine. I guess I don't it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

And this situation, a a wagon-related injury or death comes up in our next part as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:44

Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:45

Because it happened. It happened a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:47

No, I I get it. I I just I didn't not think people died that way, but I just I guess it's like car accidents.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

It happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:58

I don't like car accidents.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:00

So if disease didn't kill you, the wagons didn't kill you. This the accidental gunshots didn't kill you.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:08

The wildlife dead.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:10

Animals.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:10

Yep. Look at me go. It's like I know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:14

Cattle or oxen could be spooked by thunder. Oh, sure. Or bull buffalo or a sudden loud sneeze, even.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:24

Or a fucking branch breaking.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:27

A gunshot, an accidental gunshot. Dozens of 2,000-pound animals could start running. Humans in trouble. Stampede almost. People could get kicked by mules, bitten by horses, gored by unruly oxen. Oh boy. Yoking and unyoking oxen was usually calm work. Sure. But a frustrated ox might swing his horns and catch someone. Additionally, drowning of livestock or riders during river fords was common. Fjord. If an ox team lost footing in deep water, a wagon could flip. Yep. Pinning the driver or passengers underwater. Yep. So then we have water-related deaths.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:16

Oh my god. I they always I shouldn't say they. I've always heard that drowning once you get past the like initial shit of it. It's rather peaceful. It's like, who the fuck ever told you that? Somebody who didn't drown? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:35

So the Kansas, the Platte, the North Platte, the Snake, the Green River, the Columbia River, countless rivers had to be crossed. Yeah. Obviously, we don't have bridges. We don't have reliable ferries. No. Fording rivers was a gamble and it cost many a life. I bet. So the if the current was quick or the water were above the oxen's back, um, disaster obviously can happen. So in one year, 1850, 37 people drowned trying to cross a single river. Oh my god. The Green River in Wyoming.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:16

Green River.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

How many?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:20

37?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:21

37 in one year.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:22

Damn.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:23

Now another toll. Not maybe not death, but another serious situation that can happen on the trail. Yeah. We've got environmental hazards.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:35

Tornadoes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

We've got tornadoes. We've got lightning strikes. We've got hail storms. We've got desert heat and dust. We've got prairie fires. We've got snowstorms. We've got frostbite. We've got these accidental explosions. Maybe there was black powder in a keg and it went off and whatever. There were in all these things. And then you've got the mental strain.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:01

I almost feel like you should have listed off what couldn't have.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:06

That would have been a shorter episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:07

Might have been.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:09

But you had nervous breakdowns. Sure. No, I you had suicides. If a family member was lost, someone else could easily take their life over the grief.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

There was just so many awful things on this trail.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:26

It was it was tumultuous.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:29

Perfect. Perfect word.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:33

Then we've got wagon breakdowns, mechanical. You had to wear, you had to bring spare parts, axles, which you only had so much room for. Yes, bolts, tire irons. I'm not even gonna get into that detail. Please don't. But then you've got these these river crossings, okay? They were among most of the harrowing parts of their journey. Okay. Um, if they some even seasoned pioneers would dread crossing like the Platte River and the Snake River and the Columbia River. Yep. Um, so there were a couple ways to cross. One was fording, and I've mentioned that a couple times. Yep. Driving the wagons through the river at shallow fords. Yep. This required scouting.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:17

Of course, because they had to scout the shallow parts that they could cross. Of course. Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:23

Men would ride in to test the depth and the current. All adults who could swim stood by to assist. Sure. Wagons were cocked with tar or pitch to be watertight as possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:39

Mm-hmm. Goods were piled high in case of minor flooding.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:44

So they wouldn't get wet, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:45

Even then.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

Could you imagine their whole fucking stock of flour getting wet? I mean, that that would ruin it. Am I wrong? And then you are fucked. So yeah, you obviously have to put it up high or do what you can to keep it fucking dry. Because you could literally, and look, look at what they invested in this and able to do this journey, and all of a sudden, um, we're out of food, and we're just crossing said river.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:18

Holy fuck, we're screwed. Because they would literally all die.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:24

Even then, there could be a mid-stream panic, either either from the oxen panicking, or the driver wagon tipping. Yep, yep, yep. Hundreds of recorded deaths were from drownings, often multiple family members at once.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:41

That's sad. Could you imagine? Like, um, well, there goes dad and mom and sister. Yep. Shit. What do we do now?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:49

Especially if like the adults died and the kids were like left.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

They're like, um, what hold on to that statement for the next day.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:57

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:58

So then there were ferries.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:00

By magical creatures?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

No. F-E-R-R-I-E s. By the late 1840s, entrepreneurs would set up ferries at crossings.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:10

Um, so they would be like large rafts or wooden flat boats that would carry um wagons across for a fee.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:17

Well, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

Ferry operators might charge five to sixteen dollars a wagon.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:24

Which was probably pretty pricey at that time.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:25

You know, the fortune considering a single ox could cost$25.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:30

Which was like their life savings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:34

One famous ferry on the Green River reportedly took in$65,000 in one season.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:42

Holy balls. That's fucking entrepreneurship to the next level. Yeah. Still many paid. Well, why wouldn't you? It's like uh death, potential death, I should say.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

Because if they're walking across, they see all these deaths. Okay, we'll get on the ferry.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:01

Yeah, so potential death or hey man. We got you.

unknown 1:24:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:06

Just need to pay up. Five bucks. Little man, put that shit in my hand. Anyways. Yes. I don't think I was a right.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:15

Okay, now.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

Native Americans. Myth versus reality here. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

So many emigrants started their journey in fear of Indian attacks. And I'm gonna say Indian because that's how they were referred to. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:35

It's perfectly fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:37

So they were um so they were in fear of Indian attacks, and it was fueled by these dime novels that were created and these guidebooks that were created.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:47

That that painted them in a very bad light. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:50

So in reality, during the peak trail years of the 1840s through the 1860s, yeah, most encounters with native peoples were peaceful, they were friendly, and they were kind of business like.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:04

Well, they traded and shit because, like, hey, you you you look cold, I trade you fur.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:11

Statistically, an emigrant would die of accident or disease over a hostile Indian. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:19

No, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:20

Yes. So that said, there was still some prejudice.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:24

So of course, there always is gonna be. That will never go away.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:29

So as I said before, they would form these circles at night with their wagons, and that was part of their defense strategy. Protection, yeah. So typically the first tribes that emigrants were met with were the Otto or Otto, Oto, Oto, or Omaha in Nebraska, and then the Sioux Cheyenne in Arapaho on the plains. So these nations were generally curious and welcoming, seeing wagon trains as an opportunity to trade.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:59

Well, yeah, because they're they're bringing new shit. Like, hey man, I got this furry. Uh I'm looking for that piano.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

Yeah. So one pioneer in 1852 said, quote, we met many bands of Indians, they were on most friendly terms. The main object of their visits was to trade dressed buffalo robes and moccasins for bread or coffee, end quote. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:22

Yeah, no, I mean at that time frame, they were painted in a very bad light. Like they were savages and so on. And don't get me wrong, there were some instances, of course, not great.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:38

Stay tuned for part two.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:39

Yeah. However, there was a lot of them that were curious, inviting people. I mean just people. They're just natives. Like, hey man, I like the cutting of your jib and your coffee. I got this fur.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:58

I got these shoes that I made. They're they're they got tassels on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:02

Hand fucking sown.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:04

You're not gonna find this quality anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:07

So, yes, native people offered life-saving goods. They had fresh buffalo meat, they had they had fish, they had berries, they pardon me, they had moccasins and buckskins. Um, so in exchange, they wanted things like bread, flour, sugar, cloth, knives, um, some firearms, maybe a little any ammunition.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:30

There it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:31

Um, children on both sides were super fascinated with each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:35

Well, because they didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:37

Yeah, there were many accounts of pioneer kids playing with Indian kids in camp using sign language to s to talk to each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:45

Which is wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:46

Yeah, like, hey, I want another drink.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:48

It's like, hey, can I have a oh, you're thirsty?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want like a kind of a drink.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:58

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:00

So Native Americans were also really crucial allies. So they served as guides across difficult terrain, showed emigrants fords across the rivers, recommended good campsites.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:13

They knew they knew the territory better than anybody, literally most. Uh, even especially those fucking shysters that said take the pash. Right, right. So they lived that land, they fucking knew what the fuck they were doing. And again, a lot of them were inviting, like the whole stereotype that they were savages and all that. Again, they had differences with us and we had differences with them, of course. Understandable. We we as some people say today, took all their land. We we pop we pushed them out of certain territories, but a lot of them were just curious and wanted to be like, hey man.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:54

Yeah, I like I like what you got there. You wanna you wanna trade? Yeah, like I'm interested in it.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:59

I like trading.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

Yeah, it looks like you made something. I'm interested. I I I like supporting other artists.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:06

I like I like to spot the support the local artist. Uh-huh. But it that's that's what it was, and it's it's really sad that like if you if you look back on history, how that is skewed, how the prejudice just overwhelmed people. Because it's like they were painted as savages, and so that's how they were written in in history. So yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:30

Some wagon trains hired native scouts to hunt game for them. Yeah, the Plains tribes' hunting skills obviously were far out of the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:40

Far superior, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

So despite overall peaceful interactions, of course, there was were some like cultural misunderstandings.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:49

Of course, there's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:51

One issue was was grazing lands. Oh thousands of immigrant cattle grazing the prairie could deplete grass that tried. Tribes depended on for their own horses and buffalo herds and all that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:05

Exactly. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:06

So as the trickle of wagons became more of a flood of wagons in the 1850s, some tribes grew a little bit more resentful.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:17

Which I totally understand because 100%. These people are like, wait a minute, we were trying to be nice. Now they're all taking our fucking shit. My my my animals need this grass and you're you're eating it all. No, I I told I could see why they'd be like, what the fuck, white man?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:33

So in 1851, the Fort Laramie Treaty gathered many plains tribes to establish some order. Oh, okay. The US government promised annual compensation to tribes for the disruption caused by the trail.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:48

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:49

And in turn, the tribes would agree to let the travelers pass through. Through, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:56

Untouched. Sure. So it mostly held for a decade. Wow. Yeah. That's surprising. It was not perfect, but nothing ever is. Theft of livestock was probably the most common complaint, um, though it did go both ways.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:11

Of course. Yeah. It's yeah, it's not gonna be one-sided. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:16

So by the late 1850s and 60s, as tens of thousands more settlers poured in, and as US forts sprang up, the dynamic changed.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:27

It shifted for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:28

Conflicts arised, um, especially north of the platte in the and in the Oregon territory.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:35

For the typical family in the 18 in 1843 through 1855, Indians were more often helpers, traitors, or curious onlookers than enemies.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:46

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:47

But the presence of emigrants also brought disease to people that they weren't familiar with or it was new to them, and it obviously does. That's the one of the I know a lot of people understand this. I'm sure there's some people that don't. Uh, one of the biggest killers of Native Americans is the Western diseases. Not Western. The white man disease, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

They brought cholera, measles, the smallpox, and it devastated many tribes.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:22

Because that was all new to this country with those people coming over. So they had no immune system to it. And it's really tragic that that's what killed it. It's like we didn't go and slaughter all these people. A lot of them. I'm not saying we didn't, but a lot of them in this situation. A lot of them died from just disease. Disease that they weren't used to. And it's really kind of sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:51

So the interaction became kind of double-edged. While pioneers often survived in part to in part thanks to Native American assistance, their journal all their journey also had this wave of disease and displacement for the people who had helped them.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:07

Yeah. Which wasn't intentional.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:09

And immigrants greatly feared being killed by uh these Native Americans. While in truth, more Native Americans died from emigrant-born diseases rather than vice versa.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:21

Like I just said, yes. Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:23

So that is the overall general rundown of life on the Oregon Trail. And part two, we are going to talk about the Sager family. The Sager and their life on the Oregon Trail. And most of mo a lot of what I said today unfortunately happened to them.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:43

Oh boy. Um, pretty interesting story of the Sager family, is what we're getting into. Oh, yeah. All right, I look forward to that. So um I enjoyed the background of the Oregon Trail. It's something, again, I don't want to say I grew up with. I grew up with a game.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:01

We grew up with a game.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:02

Yeah. Um fantastic fucking game. Let's try and bring that up in part two a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:07

Because we grew up on that. We're old, so yes. What do you think of your pills?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:13

I like it. I had three.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:16

I'm glad you I don't typically have well, also sometimes I don't finish a single one, but no, but also they are eight ounces, so a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:24

They're delicious. I liked them.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:26

Cheers, Larry, if you made it this far, if you even listened. Um, appreciate you and keep keep up the good work with bringing delicious beer.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:35

And cheers to your dad.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:36

Yeah, cheers to my dad. One year gone. Um, it's been a little tough for me this week, uh, thinking on it. But um, I miss you, Dad, and uh this uh celebration's for you. So cheers. Cheers. Well, I suppose. All right, buffoons, that's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:54

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:06

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at history buffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:20

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:25

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:28

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.