The Origin of Weird: The Anti Pope Schism

Power doesn’t just shape history—it picks the chair. We dive into the Western Schism, when Europe faced not one but multiple popes, and legitimacy became a battlefield of theology, politics, and personality. From Rome to Avignon to a seaside fortress in Spain, this is the story of how faith and ambition tangled for decades, and how a divided church fought its way back to one voice.

We start with why rival popes appeared at all: the papacy sitting atop medieval geopolitics, the Avignon move that made French influence unavoidable, and the chaotic return to Rome that led to Urban VI and a swift backlash. When cardinals fled and elected Clement VII in Avignon, kings chose sides. England backed Rome, France rallied Avignon, and ordinary believers were left to wonder whose seal carried the weight of heaven.

At the heart of it all stands Pedro de Luna, Benedict XIII: brilliant canon lawyer, austere reformer, and a man whose conviction hardened into immovable certainty. Besieged in Avignon, he slipped through a secret passage and reemerged defiant. Reformers tried to fix the split at Pisa and only made it worse, creating a third papal line. The Council of Constance finally threaded the needle—deposing one claimant, accepting another’s resignation, and electing Martin V to reunite Christendom—while Benedict held fast in Peñíscola, issuing bulls to a shrinking court and believing to the end that he alone kept the lawful line.

What emerges is a vivid portrait of legitimacy: how it is claimed, tested, and rebuilt. We unpack the Avignon Papacy, Urban VI’s missteps, European alliances, Pisa’s miscalculation, and Constance’s careful choreography. Along the way, we explore how law, conscience, and raw power jostled for the soul of the church—and why unity returned only when authority aligned with process and consent. If you enjoy history that reads like a political thriller—sieges, escapes, rival courts—this one delivers.

Enjoyed the deep dive? Follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more curious minds find us.

Benedict (XIII) – Antipope, Avignon Papacy, Papal Schism

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Benedict-XIII-antipope

Western Schism

https://www.britannica.com/event/Western-Schism

Pedro de Luna – Catholic Encyclopedia

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09431c.htm

Avignon and the Papacy: From Papal Palace to Papal Crisis by Yves Renouard

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40482060

Antipope Benedict XIII, A Stubborn Old Man

https://www.catholic365.com/article/35024/antipope-benedict-xiii-a-stubborn-old-man.html

Transcript

Cold Open And Banter

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's it's okay then.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Why have you been so quiet lately when you say that?

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Oh hey there. There it is.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Oh hey there.

unknown 0:23

All right.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Nathan's sleeping in the other room.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I know he's taking a nap because he just went out hunting this morning and got two deer for hunting season. That was his goal. So huzzah. One done. One and done. More venison for you guys to add to your plethora of venison that you have.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Yeah. So that's why I was quiet.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Oh, I get it. But I also feel like not my fault. Just kidding. Uh oh, hey there.

Setting The Stage: Popes And Power

SPEAKER_00 0:50

How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:51

I am well. This is the History Buffoons. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

I'm good. I am Kate.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

And I am Bradley.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

It's felt like we took a long time to get to History Buffons. We really did.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

But here we are.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

This is the origin of Weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yes. And um I am kind of trailing off of a previous episode that we did. Uh Origin or Um, no, I think it was um was it Origin? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

If you tell me, I could probably tell you.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

It was about anti-popes. And the Western Shism.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Schism?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Schism.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Schism.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Shazam.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Shazam, you got schism.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Was that John of Neppamuk? When we briefly talked about antipopes.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I don't know, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah. Is it? I know we talked about like the West Western Schism.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Schism. Do you want to know something? What? That is a fantastic tool song. Schism. Schism. Oh, it's so good. They're so fucking amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Okay, so we're gonna talk about one in particular. Um, anti anti po anti poop.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Anti poop.

Antipopes And Medieval Politics

SPEAKER_02 2:00

There's a Primus album called Antipop.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

You were weird.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

So for most of the Middle Ages, yeah, people like to believe that Christendom, um, their stability flowed downwards from a single source, and that was Saint Peter. Right. And his successor. Yeah. Um, he was also called the Bishop of Rome, um, or of course, the Pope. Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Did you know Saint Peter was crucified upside down?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

I think I did hear that, yeah. Yeah. So in theory, one man would carry the spiritual authority to guide kings, crown emperors, and settle disputes that were far beyond Vatican walls. And you know, Vatican is like the smallest country. Yeah. In practice, things were a lot messier.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Of course, because people.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yes. So the papacy sat on top of a ton of politics and rivalries and ambitions. And every so often the church would come up with a few extra popes.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Got a plethora of popes.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, they're like rival popes or like backup popes. Backup popes. Like backup dancers, but popes.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

It's like Pope John the First, get in there. Yeah. This guy's arm is weak. It's like fucking baseball, and they're replacing the Pope.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

And it's but of course, the Pope who there are popes who also refuse the acknowledgement of other popes. Of course, because I'm the I'm the true successor.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

The one true Pope. Yeah. And because they wanted the power. I mean, especially back then. It's all about God and church and stuff. But again, I am not religious, so this is my viewpoint on it. They wanted that power. Yeah. Because there were some pretty shady fucking popes.

Investiture Battles And Authority

SPEAKER_00 3:47

There were. So, I mean, all in the name of God, but so as I said before, we call these extra popes antipopes. Yes. Um, but in their own day, each one swore, scouts, honor, and all, that he was the true heir to Saint Peter's throne. Sure. So behind each pope antipope was a network of kings and noble houses who c saw clear advantages in supporting a certain pope.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

It's funny, every time you say Saint Peter, I just think upon this rock I will build my church. And I'm just picturing Ultron saying it. From the Avengers. Oh. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

So antipopes tended to appear whenever whenever the papacy got tangled up with secular power, which was fairly often.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

To medieval rulers, a pope wasn't just a spiritual leader, he was also like a geopolitical jackpot.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Geopolitical jackpot.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

A pope in your corner could strengthen a dynasty, undermine an enemy, sanction a war, oh yeah, or decide whether a marriage stood or collapsed.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Weird. We've talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

So when a king or emperor found the current pope uncooperative, it was tempting to promote a rival pontiff and call him the real deal. Yep. So the 11th and 12th centuries were especially crowded with these disputes.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Popes and emperors clashed clashed over who got to appoint bishops, who had the power to crown whom, and whether the Holy Roman Emperor um outranked the Pope or vice versa.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

So there was such a thing called the investiture controversy. Never heard of that, okay? It produced a standoff that emperors created their own popes, and popes encouraged uprisings against emperors. Wow. So it was kind of a like a medieval showdown between popes and the Holy Roman Empire over who gets to appoint bishops. Okay. Okay. Bishops held land and power, so the emperors wanted control. Popes argued only the church could choose its own leaders. Right. Um, so this kind of spiraled into excommunications and political chaos and more anti-popes.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Quite the schism.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Schism. So Europe ended with not just a pair, but a parade of competing pontiffs.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Each one with his own court, his own followers, and his own papal seals, insisting he was absolutely legitimate.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

So, I mean, if you where do these people sit? Because only one can occupy the Vatican.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

So I feel like the one that's there should be the full community. I mean, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yes. So I actually do um have some places where they have gone to.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

So do they have like Vatican II?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

That'd be funny.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

That would be kind of funny. But no.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

I know, but it just would be funny.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

So earlier battles looked fairly tidy compared to what was happening in the 14th century. This was when the papacy papacy had banned in Rome for Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Avignon in France.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

For nearly 70 years, the Pope lived not in the ancient seat of St. Peter, but in a grand palace closer to French influence rather than Roman influence.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Was this Pope that lived there French?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Um, I don't yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

I don't, yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I mean, it would make sense why he would be in France if he's French and he's like, I'm gonna get more support over here.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, I I don't remember if I wrote that down or not. That's okay. So the papacy left Rome for Avignon because Rome had become like practically ungovernable and dangerous, while France offered more stability, protection, and political pressure that popes could hardly refuse. So for sure. A few factors drove the move. Rome was in political meltdown, rival noble families fought in the streets, the city was violent, unstable, and the pope's safety was never guaranteed.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah, they didn't have the Pope Mobile back then with the doll.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Uh the French crown held enormous influence. Yep. Um, Pope Clement V, which who was elected in 1305, was heavily pressured by King Philip IV of France.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

I've heard of Pope Clement, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

And he wanted a compliant papacy. Sure. So standing close to the French court made that easier. And then Avignon was safer, wealthier, and had better administration.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Um, it was part of the papal territories, well fortified and far more comfortable than what Rome was experiencing. Gotcha. So there was Gregory the 11th.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

He was the last of the Avignon popes, and he actually brought the paper. So they were out there for what I say.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

A few years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, it was a few years.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

I guess I don't remember the years.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah, I think I wrote it down somewhere. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't I don't remember. Well, has become a Christian. It was less than a hundred years. I know that. So quite a long time though. Yeah, I think it was a couple decades.

Return To Rome And Urban VI

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Wow. I think. Still surprised it was that long.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Um, so Gregory the 11th um brought the papacy back to Rome in 1377. Gotcha. So um what did I say? Clement Pope Clement V, he was elected in 1305.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Um Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

So 72 years, roughly. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Okay. My computer's acting funny. Okay. So, like I said, uh Gregory the 11th brought back the papacy to Rome in 1377. Okay. Avignon had become a political trap, and the church's credibility was suffering. So he knew that as long as papacy stayed in France, people would see him as a French puppet.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Um, on top of that, Italy was falling into chaos, and without papal leadership, rival factions were tearing cities apart, and Rome itself was begging for the Pope's return to restore order and prestige.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

So everyone agreed the papacy needed to be restored, but no one agreed on what that restoration would look like.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

I find it funny every time you say papacy, you say papist fee.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Papacy?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

No, you say papist fee. But I know it's papacy. I know, but you're saying it funny. Sorry. Just would like to point that out. All right, so it's back in Rome.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yes, so Gregory the 11th brought back the papacy to Rome and then he died.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Oh, like he walked into Rome, we're back.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

It was close. Yeah, it was fairly close. Um, he died of natural causes. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

He was, I mean, probably pretty old.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

So especially for that time.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

45, I mean.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

So the moment conclave opened in Rome, the whole city felt like it was about to explode. Romans were terrified, the cardinals, many of them French, would choose yet another French pope and haul the papacy back to Avignon.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

I love that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

So crowds gathered outside the building shouting for an Italian and making it very clear what outcome they expected. So the pressure for the cardinals was really overwhelming. So with shouts echoing outside and fists pounding on doors, literally, the anxious cardinals completely aware of what was happening around them.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

For sure, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Chose, excuse me, Bartolomeo. Bartolomeo.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Bartolomeo?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Pregnan.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Wow.

Two Popes: Urban VI Vs Clement VII

SPEAKER_00 11:36

This is Italian looking as they.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

He likes pasta.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Um, he became Urban the Sixth.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Urban? Yes. There were six Urbans. I've never heard of Pope Urban before. Yeah. That's wild. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So the crowd loved it. For a brief moment, Rome felt restored.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

But that didn't last long.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Say what happened after that.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Urban the Sixth quickly managed to alienate many of the very men who had elevated him. He was naturally stern and never shy about his opinions. He called out the Cardinals for their spending, their behavior, and the comfortable lifestyle that they were getting used to.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

So his reforms might have had merit, but he delivered them poorly.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah. Um, so the cardinals took offense of that.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Well, yeah, because they were enjoying their lifestyle and being like, this is comfy, man. Comfy living. We don't gotta do much. We gotta say, bless you, be with God, and then we get a bunch of money and live in these lavish fucking estates and shit. So they didn't want to fucking lose that.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah. So feeling insulted and cornered, they slipped out of Rome and insisted the election had been invalid, forced by the mob's intimidation rather than their own free will.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

As in they were coerced.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

So what did they do? They elected another pope. Anti-pope. Robert of Geneva, who took the name Clement the Seventh.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

He established Clement the Fifth is the one that was in 1305. So there was a six in there somewhere. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

For some reason, because Gregory the whatever brought it back.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

11th, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Okay. I for some reason my mind went to Clement V brought it back, and I'm like, no, that's not right. Because I'm like, where did six go? But okay, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

So they elect Robert of Geneva, Clement the Seventh, and he established his court back in Avignon. And just like that, Europe had two popes, one in Rome and one in France. And of course, they both said that they were the rightful heir to St. Peter's throne.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

I feel like the one in Avignon is not because he's not on St. Peter's throne. Just saying.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Of course, nations laid um lined up behind their preferred pontiff.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Well, yeah, which hey, uh I'm sorry, Urban, right? Urban the Sixth. Urban the Sixth will let me do this. We're backing him and then Pope. I'm sorry, what was the other guy's name? Clement the Seventh. Seventh. Seventh, yeah. So um Yeah, I can see how they would be like, which one's gonna benefit me better?

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

I'm gonna back that one. And obviously I'm sure France backed the the one in France better because he's fucking there, kind of thing. But that's wild.

Enter Pedro De Luna

SPEAKER_00 14:24

So England was hostile to France, so they supported Urban in Rome.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

France threw their weight behind Clement and Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Scotland Clement's in in Rome, Urban's in Avignon.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Vice versa.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

I could have sworn you just said it the other way.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

No, Clem uh Clement the Seventh went to Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Okay. I got confused.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Clement the Seventh went to Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So Scotland, Castile, Aragon, which is in Spain, um, and others followed Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

That's where Catherine's from.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

The Holy Roman Empire um and many Italian states sided with Rome. Okay. So the Western Schism. Schism. Schism. You had it right.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

And then you butchered it.

unknown 15:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

So among those who supported Clement the Seventh was a gifted, intense, and deeply principled canon lawyer named Pedro de Luna.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

He was born around 1328. Um, and he came from an old noble family um during the Crown of Aragon.

unknown 15:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

That's all I think of when I say that. I know every time.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

That's why like Catherine of Aragon is like either from Lord of the Rings or a big spider.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah. So um he his family was marked by the crescent moon on their coat of arms, hence his last name, De Luna.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

So he studied at the University of Montpelier, where he became a highly respected teacher of canon law. He was known for his discipline and personal austerity. Pedro was admired for his unwavering um commitment to principle.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

When Gregory the Eleventh made him cardinal in 1375, one of the final opponent um appointments before the papacy's return to Rome.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

And Gregory died.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Pedro quickly became an influential figure. So in Avignon, he emerged as one of the court's most loyal defenders and one of Clement the Seventh's most capable diplomats.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Gotcha.

Benedict XIII’s Rise And Resolve

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Okay. Clement the Seventh died in 1394.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

And the Avignon cardinals gathered once again to select a successor. And they were worn down by this schism. Did I say that right? Yes. Good job.

unknown 16:54

Me.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

They were embarrassed by the div division of it, and they wanted to restore unity. So they agreed that whoever they chose had to be committed to healing the rift, even if that meant resigning for the greater good.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

So they wanted steadiness and unquestionable integrity. So they chose Pedro de Luna, who became Benedict the Thirteenth.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yes, 13th. Roman numerals, am I right? Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Got him on my arm.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

So for a more moment, it genuinely looked like the Avignon Cardinals had chosen well. Benedict the Thirteenth had a reputation for integrity, sharp intellect, and unwavering commitment to what he believed was right. So, but that same unshakable conviction became the heart of his coming disaster. Once he became Pope, he simply could not imagine any path to healing the schism that required him to step aside.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

So he got that power and he's like, fuck this, I'm not giving it up.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

In his mind, a true pope didn't resign.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

But you're not a true pope.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

But he didn't think that.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

No, he thought he was the true pope and the other guy was the imposter.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

So at first his position was strong. France, Scotland, Castile, Aragon, Sicily all recognized him. But as the years passed, patients started wearing thin. Kings grew frustrated. Theologians worried about um spiritual fallout, and Europe um groaned under dispute that no one could justify anymore.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

So French universities spoke openly about the harm the schism was doing and arguing that divided leadership endangered the entire church. Sure. Duh.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

I mean, you can't have a uh unity with such a fucking clusterfuck going on. Seriously. So yeah, it's gonna damage it. And people are gonna be like, well, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Why am I falling?

Siege Of Avignon And Daring Escape

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Right. So diplomats pleaded with Benedict to consider resign resignation for the sake of unity. Um, but in 1398, France withdrew obedience altogether, and that blow um, excuse me, and the blow that followed was even worse. His own cardinals started walking away.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

So, or under orders from the French crown, troops surrounded the papal palace in Avignon, essentially placing Benedict under guard. One by one, cardinals who had stood behind him once before had slipped out, distancing themselves for what they saw was kind of like a hopeless cause.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Out of 23, only five remained. Oh, Jesus. The rest joined the call for him to resign for the good of the church.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

So, but anyone who thought this pressure would make Benedict the Thirteenth full didn't understand Pedro de Luna.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

He's like, fuck your couch. I am Pope.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Through years of siege, uh, years in which his influence shrank, his isolation deepened, and his dignity was constantly tested, he refused to budge. He believed completely and without hesitation that he alone upheld God's lawful order.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Oh good lord.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

So yielding to political force was in his eyes inconceivable. Inconceivable.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

I don't think you're using that word right.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

You don't think so?

SPEAKER_03 20:22

It's from a movie.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Oh, is that the follow-up? Yes. Princess Bride?

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Cool. I've only seen it once. Really? Yeah. Maybe twice.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

I guess I know what movie we're gonna watch soon.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

So by 1403, the blockade outside the palace had weakened.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

The French political situation shifted. Some local commanders became less vigilant, and the siege simply wasn't uh maintained with the same intensity it once had.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Now they're like, eh.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I'm getting tired.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

I'll throw a grape at you and walk away.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah. So sensing the change he had been waiting for, Benedict the Thirteenth quietly coordinated his remaining like five allies.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

That's not a lot of allies.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

One night taking advantage of the lax guard and under the cover of darkness, he slipped out through a concealed passage, and um with the help of his loyal followers, he escaped Avignon entirely and made his way to territories more sympathetic to him.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Oh, like where?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

So this is when I think he went to um Spain.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

So he wasted no time reasserting control. Supporters had grown uneasy or ambivalent, suddenly saw him as a man who couldn't be intimidated into resignation. Um he re-entered Avignon not as a captive but as a defiant pontiff reclaiming his position. So he tried to come back. Right. And it transformed him into a symbol to his followers, a pope wronged, but unbroken.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Oh, good lord.

The Pisa Gambit And Three Popes

SPEAKER_00 21:57

To his critics, living proof that no amount of pressure could pry him out of the office. He his escape didn't resolve the schism, but it solidified his identity in the eyes of Europe for better or for worse. Meanwhile, Europe tried to fix the mess on their own.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Urban.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

So in 1409, bishops and theologians gather gathered at Pisa.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Pisa, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Right. Um, they had a bold plan depose both remaining reigning popes. We have Gregory the 12th in Rome, and now we've got Benedict the Thirteenth in Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

I thought he was Clement.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Gregory the Sixth.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

He was the last Avignon Pope, and he returned to the papacy to Rome. Correct. Okay. And then we have right after him was Urban the Sixth of the Roman line.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

And he during this time is when there's a revolt and it breaks.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

So then we have the Avignon line, which is Clement the Seventh. And then he's the antipope.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

And then he dies, and then Benedict.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yes, he dies. And now again in the Avignon line, we've got Benedict the Thirteenth.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yep. De Luna.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Mm-hmm. And then we still have the Roman line.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

So the Roman line was um Urban the Sixth.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yep, the first one.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Then we have Boniface the Ninth.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

So Urban died, Urban VI died, Boniface the Ninth, and then we had Innocent the Seventh. Was he innocent though?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

And then we had Gregory the Seventh. Sorry, Gregory the Twelfth.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

And that's the one we're at now.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yes, that's where we're at now.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

I need a fucking charter or something. Jesus Christ. Okay. So because I guess we were talking about De Luna this whole time, and I didn't know any of those died.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yeah. So that's that wasn't yeah, that wasn't even part of like the research, but yes, a couple popes died and more were re-elected.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

That obviously makes sense. I was just super confused because again, I also didn't know the time frames.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

I know it's really difficult to follow.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

So much so many popes.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

We'll try to I'll try to put together like a Yeah, like a list or something.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Whatever. Yeah, something like that. Pie chart.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

3D graph.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Yeah. So yeah, that was confusing.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Okay. Thank you for clearing that up.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

All right.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

So Gregory the So we've got Gregory the Twelfth in Rome.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

That's right.

Constance Moves To End The Schism

SPEAKER_00 24:36

We have Benedict the Thirteenth in Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Now in Aragon. Or wait, that's where he went, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

No, I think he's still in Avignon.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

But he's escaped.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah, he escaped. So yeah, he must be back in Aragon.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Because he was going to Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

So I can't believe you didn't even comment on how I said Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

So in 1409, bishops and theologians gathered at Pisa to dispose both the remaining popes.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah, Benedict the Thirteenth?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yes, and in Avignon or yeah. Gregory the 12th. Yes, and he's in Rome.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And they elect a new one to unify a Christendom.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

But now there's three. How is that going to unify them?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Exactly. So just to give a quick overview. A quick overview.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

What's a queak overview?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

A quick overview of what uh what deposing needs. Oh dear. I broke him.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Oh my god, a queak. I like queak overviews. Sorry. That was just really funny to me. And I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

All right, continue. So I I'm gonna give a brief overview of what deposing a post is. Deposing a post.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Words are tough, am I right?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I think I need a beer.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Oh, I do.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Okay, so deposition involves a formal statement explaining why he is no longer recognized.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

A withdrawal of obedience from kings, cardinals, and clergy. Okay, and another man elected in its place.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

So sorry, what was the one they elected the third pope now?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

His name is Alexander the Fifth.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Alexander the Fifth. That's a strong name.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Now they have a three pope problem.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Do you know what I think they should have done? Built a ring, gladiator style, whatever. Hash it out. Pope it up. Yep. Pope up the jam. Wait.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

So Gregory the 12th refused to step down.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Of course he did. Why would he step? He's like, no, dude, I'm the fucking Pope. I'm in Rome. So what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 26:52

And then Benedict the Thirteenth insisted as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

He was still Pope. No, because he was a dick. It wouldn't give up power, even though they elected him, saying, hey man, you might have to resign at some point to unify our our Christendom. But you know, he's like, no, I don't. I'm good.

Deposition, Resignation, And Martin V

SPEAKER_00 27:06

So now we've got Gregory XII of the Roman line. Yeah. We have Benedict the Thirteenth of the Avignon line. And we have Alexander the Fifth of the Pisian line. Pisan line. Pisa, right? Meaning Tower of Pisa. Tower of Pisa. Pisa. Pisa line. Pisa in line.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

I like the Pisian line.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So Alexander V reigned for only 10 months and then died of natural causes.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

They need to elect younger popes.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

And then he was succeeded by John the 23rd.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Now there was 23 Johns by that time.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Only John 23 happened twice. We actually had one in the late 50s, early 60s. But because the old John the 23rd isn't considered an antipope.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Wait, he's not considered so they could do it again?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Mm-hmm. They could do it again. So we had a 20th century John the 23rd.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

And a 14th century slash 15th century John the 23rd. That's not confusing.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So through all that, Benedict the Thirteenth continued to insist on his legitimacy from southern France and Aragon.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

So how is are they just like, hey, um the money you collect at church, send it to this address instead of to the one in Rome? Is that like how they did it basically? Because that's how they get funded.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Right?

SPEAKER_00 28:35

They're taking their they each have their own bishops and clergy, and yeah, they would go directly to their pope.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

So by 1414, the church realized it needed a more serious solution, and they convened the council of Constance.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

So they're gonna elect a fourth pope?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

No, thankfully.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Thank God.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

So the bishops, the theologians, the ambassadors, and representatives from nearly every Christian kingdom created this council.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

So where Pisa had kind of improvised, Constance used more structure with broader representation and a more clear determination to end this sh schism.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

There it is.

Benedict XIII In Exile At Peñíscola

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Okay, so the the Pisian Pope, John the 23rd, tried to flee the council, but was caught and then deposed.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Okay. Why did he try to flee? I have no idea. I'm like, I don't like this, man. I'm gonna go. No, you gotta fucking get back here, dude. We gotta depose you.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Gregory the twelfth um actually volunteered to resign. Good. And that gave this council enormous credibility. Sure. Mm-hmm. And then there was Benedict the Thirteenth, and I'm the Pope, bitch. Yep, he's the Pope. He's the last obstacle. Nope, not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Of course not. He he he expressed that from getting office right away, even though he's a On saying, hey, you might have to resign at some point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Just saying.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Um, I will tell you he's he's a fucking politician. I mean, look at our politics today. All of the politicians are like, I will run on this and then I will not do a fucking thing about it. Andor go against it. So he's a politician.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

So high-ranking churchmen and respected ambassador traveled to Benedict's court hoping that respected voices delivered face to face would persuade him to give up his his claim.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Do you murder him?

unknown 30:31

No.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Oh, thank God. They argued theology, canon law, and the needs of the church, even the practical realities of Europe's situation after decades of division. Benedict rebutted every point. Monarchs who had once supported him, especially the king of Aragon, pressed him to step down. Um, count the council drafted formal appeals, uh, theological arguments and legal explanations. They offered compromises, safe retirement, honorary position. He rejected them all. Oh, he wanted to be Pope. But by this point, Benedict the Thirteenth was in his 70s and nothing could budge him. He insisted that he alone had been a legitimate cardinal before the schism began, therefore, he retained the true authority.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah, but there was other legitimate cardinals before all that too. So, okay.

The Last Flickers Of The Avignon Line

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So when it became clear that he wouldn't back down, the council finally declared him a schismatic. Oh. And deposed him in 1417.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

So they said we don't care what you say. Yeah. Is basically what they said.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

So I had to look this up because why wouldn't they just declare him deposed anyway? Yeah. Why wait so long? Because I don't know, they're stupid. So they needed the Roman Pope, Gregory the S uh the 12th, to cooperate.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

And he did. He ended up stepping down.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

And that's what gave this council the legal backbone it needed. Right. Okay. They also wanted all factions on board. So deposing Benedict the Thirteenth prematurely would have alienated kingdoms that still supported him.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Gotcha. Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

They couldn't risk another splinter in the group.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Then they also had to handle John the 23rd. Right. The the Pisian Pope fled Constance early on, and the council had to chase him down and depose him. And that actually took a couple months, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

I'm sure. I mean, especially back then, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

And then um, obviously there was hope that he would actually resign. That didn't happen. Um, and then his legal argument argument was difficult to dismantle. So he claimed that he was the last surviving cardinal from before the schism, meaning that he had the right to make or break popes. Canon lawyers had to work very carefully to dismantle that claim in a way that Europe would accept. Sure. So by waiting, they made it indisputable that Benedict was the obstinate one.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And this helped prevent backlash when they finally deposed him.

Wrap-Up, Corrections, And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Gotcha. That makes sense because he was adamant that he's no dude, I'm the Pope, man. Yeah. I don't care what you say. But with doing it the proper way, finally, after a hundred fucking years basically, they uh finally like, yeah, let's do this right and get him out of there. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I'm just now recognizing that when I first talked about Gregory the Twelfth, I might have said Gregory the Seventh, because I was looking at a V Not next. I think that's why I got so confused. It was Gregory the Twelfth the whole time. We'll have to we'll have to see if that happened.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

I'll uh I'll be interested to edit this one.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

So, okay, so Europe accepted this decision. Martin V was elected pope soon after and widely recognized as the new unified leader of the church.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Martin, that seems like a terrible pope name.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

But Benedict the Thirteenth refused to recognize any of it. So what? One fucking guy, who the fuck cares? I know. He withdrew to the fort fortress of Peniscola of the Aragonese coast of Spain. Okay. Um, there is a dramatic like citadel that's still there. Oh, nice. It's it over it's huge and it overlooks the Mediterranean. So he continued to act as quote unquote Pope there. So he issued um these formal papal decrees called papal bulls.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

He appointed new cardinals. Um, he sent letters to kings urging urging them to return to the true obedience. Oh, Jesus Christ. His house household grew smaller every year, dwindling to a loyal handful who aged alongside him.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

In Rome, Martin V governed a reunited church.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Benedict the Thirteenth presided over a papacy that consisted of a fortress, a few devoted people, sure, and of course his unshakable belief that he is the rightful pope.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

But even though everyone else in the world knows he's not.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

So some contemporaries didn't couldn't agree on how to judge him. Some saw a man of extraordinary principle, others saw pride masquerading as righteousness.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

And isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins? Weird.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And later historians often settled somewhere in between. A figure whose rigid conscience was both admiral and tragic.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Admirable.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah. Benedict the Thirteenth died, still convinced that Rome had deserted justice and he had not. Okay. On his deathbed, determined to preserve what he believed was the true papal line, he appointed four new cardinals.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Oh Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

They elected a successor. Clement the Eighth, recognized only in a sliver of Aragon. One of the four cardinals refused to join the vote and elected another pope. This one is called Benedict the Ten Five Four. The Fourteenth. Two rival popes within the tiny remnant of Aragon. Wow. Okay, real quick, what happened to Benedict the 14th? Yeah. He had no real following, no recognition, no political support, no influence.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, because he was only elected by one.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah, he was illegitimate. Yeah, he fizzled nearly complete uh immediately. Right. So within a few years, Clement VIII reconciled with Martin V and back in Rome, finally snuffing out the last member of the Avignon plank claim.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Oh, Jesus. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

So especially in Aragon, Pedro de Luna remains far more comp more complicated than the label anti-pope implies. He is remembered as El Papa Luna, the mooncrest pope whose iron will outlasted councils, armies, and nearly a century of upheaval.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Anti-popes, am I right?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Am I right?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Jesus Christ. Well, and like, yeah, they can say all that they want, but he was just a stubborn fuck who wouldn't give up his seat because he wasn't the legitimate pope. I know. Even though in his eyes he was. I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm just the way I'm looking at it, he was not the Pope. Because the Pope is in Rome, like that one song said. I can't remember. It was came out in the 90s, but anyways.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, I I'm sorry about the uh the number of popes.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

It got really fucking confusing.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

It got really confusing, and I I really do think I missed misspoke on that one. Yeah, Gregory the Seventh when I meant the twelfth.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Well, maybe when you s if you do say it wrong when I edit, I'll just I'll just randomly edit in like seven. It's supposed to be twelve. You know what I mean. Twelve. I might have to do that because that would be fucking hilarious. Pope Clement the Twelve. Because I'll use my voice because it will be so much better. Wow. Okay, that was that was hard to fall. That was confusing.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

I know I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Um, that was well just say weird. It was weird. Well, I suppose. All right, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at history buffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

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SPEAKER_02 39:19

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.