S2 Episode 14: Statues

Richie Greenberg and Erica Sandberg today discuss Christopher Columbus, the statue dedicated to him in Coit Tower North Beach neighborhood which was removed in 2020 by protesters during early Covid lockdowns, Italian immigrants in San Francisco, the Columbus Day parade and how removing a statue make little sense when society instead needs to know its past. The role of the San Francisco Arts Commission which audits all public displayed art and decides which stays and which goes.

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Transcript

Really, San Francisco? Podcast Season 2 Episode 14

Christopher Columbus, statues and tearing down monuments.

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Erica Sandberg: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Really San Francisco. This is the show where Richie Greenberg and I, Erica Sandbrick, we go into everything that's happening in San Francisco.

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Erica Sandberg: A lot of it is comical, some of it is serious, but it is always pertinent to our wonderful, wonderful listeners, so…

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Richie Greenberg: Hello everybody, Richie Greenberg here, and thanks, Erica, for, being the host, mostly host today.

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah, today's gonna be a fun one, because we are talking art. Who doesn't love art, right? Our heritage, we're gonna be talking about that, what it all means, who's in power, who shapes and changes the way our city looks when it comes to what is exhibited in our public sphere.

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Richie Greenberg: And also, what do you define as art? Who decides what is art or not?

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Erica Sandberg: That's right. Hey, Richie, do you know what my major in college was?

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Richie Greenberg: I…

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Richie Greenberg: Don't… no, I think, did you mention… I'm gonna assume something to do, like, with art or art history?

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah, it was art history. I majored in art history, and I minored in women's Studies.

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Richie Greenberg: Oh, really? Awesome. That explains everything.

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Erica Sandberg: Doesn't adjust, I know. Yeah, so this is actually very near and dear to my heart. This is something that, when I was going… when I was in college, I sort of made this bizarre assumption that I was going to be that person working in, behind the scenes.

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Erica Sandberg: in museums and galleries, deciding what goes up and what goes down and what's purchased and that type of thing, until I sort of realized that was actually not the direction I wanted to go into, but it's still a subject that I care incredibly.

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Richie Greenberg: And, you know, I also, at some point in my life, I had really wanted to do that as well, and I have family, I've got cousins in other countries who have studied art history, they thought about this glamorous career in working, like, for Sotheby's, when they were dealing with all the masters that were going for sale.

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Richie Greenberg: and auctions.

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah, that would… what a job that would be. But what I think is important, and how it relates

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Erica Sandberg: to San Francisco, especially right now, is what stays and what goes.

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Erica Sandberg: Okay.

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Richie Greenberg: Why do we need to even address that? What goes, what stays, and what goes why?

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Erica Sandberg: Because it is 2025. 5 years ago was 2020, so this is the 5-year anniversary of

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Erica Sandberg: Social unrest.

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Erica Sandberg: that happened to such a degree, and this was during the George Floyd protests slash riots, and the reaction that people had, not just people, but government, government bodies, what they did.

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Erica Sandberg: How they reacted to the strife, the emotions of that time, of…

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Richie Greenberg: The protests and all of that, yeah.

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Erica Sandberg: Right, of that wild year. And you and I were talking before the show started today, and we were talking how there were four monuments that were removed in very rapid succession, in 2020.

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Richie Greenberg: It was in June, June 18th and June 19th. Within barely 24, 36 hours, I believe, 3 of them were in Golden Gate Park area, and one was in Coit Tower.

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Erica Sandberg: Correct, yeah, the one in Coit Tower is called Pioneer Park, and it's the area of the space right in front of Coit Tower. So, it's actually a really gorgeous little spot.

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Erica Sandberg: Koit Tower, by the way, has some magnificent murals, of the, from the 1930s. They're really, they're really fabulous by multiple artists. But nonetheless, this particular statue was donated to the city in the 1950s, the mid-1950s.

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Erica Sandberg: And it's a statue of none other than Christopher Columbus.

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Richie Greenberg: Christopher Columbus, whoa!

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Erica Sandberg: Now, why Christopher Columbus? San Francisco has a deep

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Erica Sandberg: entrenched history with Italian Americans and Italians.

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Erica Sandberg: It is in North Beach, Telegraph Hill, part of North Beach. Columbus Avenue runs through from the Financial District to

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Erica Sandberg: Fisherman's Wharf. A big, long street. Retail, restaurants, cafes. History, history, history, saturated. It has Bank of America, which was begun by an Italian-American.

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Richie Greenberg: That was, Giannini? Is that the… yeah.

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Erica Sandberg: Right, right there. This, this is who we are. Our restaurants, our history, our culture is deeply saturated with the Italian-American experience.

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Richie Greenberg: Right, and San Francisco, among other,

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Richie Greenberg: major American cities, historic American cities with immigrants. The Italians were a major group, a major immigrant group.

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Erica Sandberg: Correct, and it's a point of pride, right? It's… the statue itself is made of bronze. It is quite beautiful. It is an incredibly well-executed piece of art. But yes, it is a monument to Christopher Columbus, who…

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Erica Sandberg: has had, who now is considered a problematic person. Now, was… is Izzy?

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Erica Sandberg: problematic in today's standards, or was it 2020 where that really bubbled up, as in,

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Erica Sandberg: how he explored the Americas, that, you know, he didn't really discover America, whether it was Sergio, but history aside, he was Italian, he was an explorer, and he has great ties to the city, okay?

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Richie Greenberg: shot.

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Erica Sandberg: It is something that we have. This is part of our… this is part of our experience as Americans and as San Franciscans. So it was torn down. It was taken down. First, it was defaced.

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Richie Greenberg: It was defaced as the other ones were, too, massively, with spray paint and red, like, fake blood, and it was just… all of them were. But the thing that's interesting to…

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Richie Greenberg: to look at compared Christopher Columbus, monument statue compared to the other ones that were taken down, the day later, is that one was taken down, Christopher Columbus was taken down by city workers preemptively.

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Erica Sandberg: Bye.

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Richie Greenberg: Where the other 3 were torn down.

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Richie Greenberg: By, by, like, lassoing it with ropes, and then protesters pulled it down, pulled them down.

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Erica Sandberg: Yes, this is correct. And did they fear that that was going to happen, too? And if so, was somebody going to get hurt? You know, as I say, it is a multi-ton bronze statue. However, I don't think that they would have been able to have achieved that anyway, because it was so enormous. But nonetheless, it was removed.

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Erica Sandberg: It's in storage. It's in storage somewhere, I believe, in, South San Francisco.

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Erica Sandberg: I have tried to go to see it. I'm still working on that, by the way. I want to take pictures

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Erica Sandberg: sitting in storage. I… This should not be a private matter. This is our work of art.

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Erica Sandberg: But that…

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Richie Greenberg: And a gift to the city as well, so it belongs to the city, it belongs to the people, belongs to us.

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Erica Sandberg: It does, it does, so why… Why?

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Erica Sandberg: Has the Arts Commission.

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Erica Sandberg: the San Francisco Arts Commission.

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Erica Sandberg: Why? Are they the entities? Why are they the people who are in charge of saying, this comes, this stays, this goes, how long, what's it replaced by? Yes, they're the Arts Commission, but who the hell are they?

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Richie Greenberg: Well, that's a great question, because you've got this organization, the commission, which is,

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Richie Greenberg: filled. Do you know how many commissioners there are on this commission? Because usually you have multiple that are nominated, appointed, and then collectively they meet on a regular basis, they have

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Richie Greenberg: Rules on, how to have public meetings, and they have votes and decisions, they have a budget for operating, and then they deal with issues and make decisions on either pos… either to approve something or reject something.

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Richie Greenberg: They do. There's actually two open spots right now.

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Richie Greenberg: Oh, well, you know, maybe you can, you have time?

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Erica Sandberg: me.

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Richie Greenberg: You have to be approved, right? So… You know, these are…

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Erica Sandberg: primarily bureaucrats.

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Erica Sandberg: who don't have an arts background. They have a… I want to control.

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Erica Sandberg: What the city does, what it looks like, motive.

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Richie Greenberg: Like, they're activists.

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Erica Sandberg: Let me know.

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Richie Greenberg: So many politicians are actually activists, so these are activist commissions, they're not people who are appreciating art and the history.

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Erica Sandberg: You're… of course, and you're looking at people…

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Erica Sandberg: I love… do you remember the 90s, Richie?

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Richie Greenberg: Yeah, of course.

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Erica Sandberg: those crazy 90s, where there were all those nightclubs that were going, and you would see flyers of, like, go to, this DJ's playing here, and this type of thing. There was a guy named, I'm going to skewer his name, unintentionally, Nabiel? Nabiel Musla?

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Richie Greenberg: Yeah, I…

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Erica Sandberg: He was one of the party planners, one of the city's young, active party planners. Well, now he's on the… on the Arts Commission.

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Erica Sandberg: It was a nightlife guy. Nightclubs, DJs, this type of thing.

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Richie Greenberg: What?

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Erica Sandberg: have to do with artworks. There's, Susie Farias,

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Erica Sandberg: background in drawing, she's an artist herself, but that doesn't mean that she's an art historian. Who else? Gosh, there's all kinds of people. Civic leaders, McKenna Quint, she's got absolutely no background whatsoever in art, so I could keep going and going and going, but these are the people who have

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Erica Sandberg: power?

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Erica Sandberg: over.

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Erica Sandberg: What is displayed in our city.

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Richie Greenberg: So when you say the power, from what I understand is that the Arts Commission has decided to

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Richie Greenberg: undertake an audit, meaning they have a database of all of the publicly displayed art, what they are, where they're located, what… who designed them, who is the artist, what it depicts, what its purpose is, and they're going through one by one across the city.

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Richie Greenberg: to decide, is this something that we like or don't like? Is it something that's controversial, or is it not? Is it something that meets whatever criteria that they're coming up with? Or if not, do we… do we remove it?

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Erica Sandberg: 100%. Well, they also have a… there's a separate Monuments Commission, which has now been disbanded,

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Richie Greenberg: Really? When was that? Did someone tear down the monuments? The monuments?

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Erica Sandberg: they did that Shaping Legacy program where I told you it was a multi-year initiative where they

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Erica Sandberg: they did assess all the different works of art that are out in public, whether or not they have merit, if they're problematic, that type of thing. The Monuments and Memorials Advisory Committee, it's, it's, again, these, all these different committees and, and.

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Erica Sandberg: groups that, that have… a say in all of this. But let's get back to Chris.

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Richie Greenberg: Yes, Chris, Chrissy Columbus. Okay, so what's, what's, what's, what's the importance? What's coming up,

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Erica Sandberg: Oh, you!

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Richie Greenberg: Yeah.

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Erica Sandberg: Columbus Day!

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Richie Greenberg: Oh, yeah, Columbus Day.

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Erica Sandberg: That's right. I'll say Columbus has been renamed Italian American Heritage Day.

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Richie Greenberg: Well, but doesn't that also coincide with, Indigenous Peoples Day?

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Erica Sandberg: It's… it doesn't coincide, it's also called that.

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Richie Greenberg: Well, right, depends on who you ask and what state you live in.

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Erica Sandberg: For sure, for sure. So, yes, you can call it what you want, but it began… its origin was Columbus Day.

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Erica Sandberg: And plenty of people still call it Columbus Day, and gosh, why? It's right on Columbus Street. It's our avenue, that's where it is. So, how far do we want to go with this renaming, restructuring, changing, and blah blah blah? You want… get rid of Columbus. That's not gonna work.

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Richie Greenberg: And we know that, similarly over in New York, New York City, there's a massive Massive Italian,

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Richie Greenberg: population there, immigrants that came in the late 1800s and… or even before, and they helped build San Francisco, they built a lot of the major cities in the country, they built New York, and isn't there… is it the same one that the country of Colombia is named after?

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Richie Greenberg: Columbus, right? So you have a whole country.

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Erica Sandberg: Okay, but let's get to what it is.

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Richie Greenberg: Yes. Yes.

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Erica Sandberg: We do have people who are still kind of clinging on to the past of 2020, and, you know, but they're few and far between. They've really settled down. It is not,

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Erica Sandberg: they're… they're just not as active or prominent any longer. What we do have is the Arts Commission still in effect, and they still have some power, but the people… I put this up on X. Do you want the Columbus statue to be returned to San Francisco in its other… in that original spot? Overwhelmingly. Now, yes, my followers are who they are.

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Richie Greenberg: Well, that's the first thing that… that was my first reaction, like, I can put up something similar, and… and I'd get overwhelmingly positive as well.

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Erica Sandberg: Sure. It's a mutual love fest, but at the same time, I think it was…

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Erica Sandberg: a huge amount of engagement, 56 comments, almost all of them were, yeah, put it back. Put it back, we want it back.

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Richie Greenberg: Now, were these respectful comments, respectful to the city? They weren't, like, you know, just off the rails, kind of, you know, profane… profanity.

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Erica Sandberg: Right. Take it out of its coffin.

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Erica Sandberg: dust it off.

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Erica Sandberg: put it back in the place, move on, move up. So, the people are very engaged in what it is that they want to, as a work of art, to represent that part of the city.

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Erica Sandberg: Columbus is part of Italian American heritage. Italian-American heritage is part of San Francisco.

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Erica Sandberg: You do the math. It's a 2 plus 2 equals 4 equation. Bring it back. Instead, we have a great big nothing. Nothing is not good.

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Erica Sandberg: Now, is there a pedestal? I don't remember. I've been there not too long ago. Is there a pedestal that's there that was nothing on it, just a pedestal?

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Erica Sandberg: It's an empty… an empty spot there.

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Richie Greenberg: So, I got a question here. You know, we've got…

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Richie Greenberg: North Beach, Little Italy, we have Chinatown, we have Japantown, right? Right. So, there are conflicts that we know of that, between some of the Asian

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Richie Greenberg: countries as a result of, like, World War II, right? You've got the Chinese, you have the Koreans, you have the Japanese. So, this, in a sense, would be as if

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Richie Greenberg: whole groups, mob mentality said, we don't like a certain stature to someone that's in Japantown, so we want it taken down.

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Erica Sandberg: For sure.

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Richie Greenberg: Right? Which, maybe that individual, to the Japanese, is…

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Richie Greenberg: a massive figure, and so what we're doing, what you're saying, and what a lot of people here want, is to put back Christopher Columbus, the… this massive figure to the Italian… Italian Americans and heritage.

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Erica Sandberg: Absolutely. Yeah, and…

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Erica Sandberg: what is government supposed to do? Is government… is local government? Is local government supposed to respond to its constituents and say, oh, this is what you want? Sure, we'll do that. Or are they supposed to say, we don't care what you want, we care what we want?

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Richie Greenberg: Well, that's another whole big question about whether or not the constitu… is the government listening to its constituents? And we know there was just a recall as a result.

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Erica Sandberg: And when confronted, they run and hide. None of the commission members outside of their comms person has responded. They don't want to address it. They don't want to put their little heads up and get pelted with tomatoes.

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Erica Sandberg: Right? But they would be. People don't like it.

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Richie Greenberg: Well, we should get a list of all of these commissioners with their photos, their bio, or contact information, and encourage people to reach out respectfully, of course, and to pose these questions.

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Erica Sandberg: Yes, of course. So, I mean, I think that that is the key. Now, regarding…

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Erica Sandberg: the purging of artwork. This was done every single revolution.

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Erica Sandberg: In… in history.

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Richie Greenberg: Right. Across the world.

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Erica Sandberg: Right. What you do is that you go and you trash, you ruin, you destroy the past. That's what you try to do. Every single revolution, just about it, again, as far as I know, has done that. Does that change history?

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Richie Greenberg: Well, it… it's a good question, because it… it…

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Richie Greenberg: The intention might be to change slash erase, and I was asked that question back in 2020, when these, these,

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Richie Greenberg: you know, there were the mobs that were out there, protesters, pulling down the statues and monuments. I was actually asked on air,

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Richie Greenberg: what were my thoughts on it? And I said, well, you know what? Whether they are a statue to whoever, you know, like, like, Grant or Francis Scott Key, who wrote the Star Spaniel banner, right? Our national anthem,

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Richie Greenberg: If you pull down his statue, are you still in school? Is it going to be taught who wrote the Star-Spangled Banner, or are you trying to erase the existence of this individual? You still need to teach, you still have to have

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Richie Greenberg: Their children and future generations understand who these people

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Richie Greenberg: are, or were. And that was really problematic, that they were going after the Star Spangled Banner author. They also were thinking about doing,

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Richie Greenberg: Cervantes, right? The… there's another,

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Richie Greenberg: bust statue there to Cervantes, who wrote, Don Quixote, I believe. And, but they let him go. They didn't go after him. I think it came out, ultimately, that he was not a threat, if you want to call these people threats.

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah, my, I was kind of googling here, because one of my absolute favorite pers…

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Erica Sandberg: historical figures is Napoleon Bonaparte.

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Richie Greenberg: Napoleon, yeah.

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Erica Sandberg: If you want to… if you want to read some absolutely marvelous quotes, definitely head over to… to him. Let's see, my favorite on,

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Erica Sandberg: history is a set of lies agreed upon. So, you know, and that always kind of struck me as, yeah, I mean, essentially, it's…

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Erica Sandberg: What it is that we have… settled.

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Erica Sandberg: on as what had happened in the past, and it's manipulated, for sure. But that's just a whole other issue. The issue is, that we know right now, that's in front of our faces, is that we do have this amazing,

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Erica Sandberg: lineage.

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Erica Sandberg: with… Italian.

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Richie Greenberg: The immigrants, the Italian-Americans, yeah.

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Erica Sandberg: Exactly, exactly. And it was a real slap in the face. It really was. It was a real slap in the face to…

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Erica Sandberg: the Italian-Americans who are here in San Francisco, many reached out to me and said, we were disgusted, furious.

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Richie Greenberg: offended.

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Erica Sandberg: We feel sick.

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Richie Greenberg: Now, there's still a lot of Italians and those of Italian heritage that live in the city, still today, descendants, the children of those who had moved here

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Richie Greenberg: you know, decades ago, last century, right? And we still do have a, a parade.

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Erica Sandberg: Yes! And it's an incredible…

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Richie Greenberg: We have a parade.

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah, it is. And you'll see on that parade, it may be… it may be renamed Italian American… heritage…

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Richie Greenberg: Right.

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Erica Sandberg: You go, and what do you see? You'll see people dressed as Columbus, you'll see old-fashioned women in Italian garb, it's just…

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Richie Greenberg: From the 1400s, 1500s, yeah, yeah.

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah, that's right. So, it's still with us.

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Richie Greenberg: It's not going anywhere.

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Erica Sandberg: It's not going anywhere, and I think it's really a matter of, let's move on and move up. I do say listen to the people. This is not to say that he was not a… that he was a perfect person.

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Erica Sandberg: But, you know, to analyze

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Erica Sandberg: a historical figure based on what we have today, what we know today, who we are today. It's very… it's impossible to do. It's just impossible. From Caesar to,

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Erica Sandberg: Stalin, you know? We have… they are… these… these are people who were… they lived in that era, they did what they did.

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Richie Greenberg: You know, and…

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Erica Sandberg: Plenty have…

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Erica Sandberg: you know, issues that people would say, oh, I don't like that, right? But they were also historical figures that we kind of need to keep. And some of them had absolutely marvelous things that they did, so…

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Richie Greenberg: I mean, this would be like, you know, we have, what, 47 presidents, or there have been… there have been 47 presidents in the United States, in the office of the president, saying, well, and just pick and choose. I didn't like

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Richie Greenberg: how effective, I don't like what this person did, I don't like what this… this, president did back then, I don't know, I don't like this one, so we're just going to remove, skip over.

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Richie Greenberg: Take down their photograph, as if they never served.

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Erica Sandberg: And here's a great point.

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Erica Sandberg: You ready?

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Richie Greenberg: Yeah, cool.

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Erica Sandberg: In Italy, they still have statues of Mussolini.

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Erica Sandberg: Right? And of, you know, quite a few people from their past, who were… brutal.

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Erica Sandberg: to their people. Those are still up. And why are they still up? Because they're… reminder.

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Richie Greenberg: As a reminder.

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Erica Sandberg: That's right.

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Richie Greenberg: to educate.

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Richie Greenberg: say, this is the person that was responsible for X, Y, and Z. We must never forget what this person did.

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Erica Sandberg: That's right, that's right. So… you know, I say let the beautiful works of art stay, bring them back.

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Erica Sandberg: Listen to people, listen to San Franciscans. If you don't, you better have a damn good reason to show yourself.

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Richie Greenberg: Right? I agree, I agree.

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Erica Sandberg: They hide, they hide like little cowards.

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Richie Greenberg: Get up!

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Erica Sandberg: Defend yourself.

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Richie Greenberg: This is the time. And don't be scared of a… of a little statue. That's not… that's not the, that's not the enemy. What the enemy is what you've got in here, and the people who are trying to erase your… what's… what's happened in history.

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Erica Sandberg: That's correct, I would say that. So, in the meantime, we've got other works of art that are in storage.

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Erica Sandberg: you know, let's start with one, I say. I think this is a good one to start with, because

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Erica Sandberg: I think that we can be pretty bold, but will we be? Who knows? Now, what is bold…

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Erica Sandberg: is I don't know if people… okay, you… if you're just listening, you can't see Richie without his mustache.

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Richie Greenberg: Oh, no. Oh, I shaved it off just a couple of days ago.

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Erica Sandberg: has been erased!

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Richie Greenberg: But it can come back, I can grow it back again really quick if I wanted to, so…

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Erica Sandberg: I think it.

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Richie Greenberg: I've lost a decade or so in the look of my age, by getting rid of it, but I don't know, we'll see.

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Erica Sandberg: That was the pledge for Rosh Hashanah New Year, so… Alright, so, wrap things up, Erica? I would say, if you have a strong opinion in either direction.

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Erica Sandberg: Let's keep this conversation up. Again, it's the 5-year anniversary of this monument being dismantled

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Erica Sandberg: from North Beach, the Italian area of the city, does it deserve to go back up? Should it stay in storage? Into perpetuity? What do you want to do? Let us know.

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Richie Greenberg: And you can contact either Erica or myself, I'm on… we're both on Twitter slash X, I'm at Greenberg Nation, and Erica is at Erica Sandberg. Erica J. Sandberg. Erica J. Sandberg. Remember that, Jay? I apologize.

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Erica Sandberg: I do also want to do a quick mention about this, which is.

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Erica Sandberg: Quite frankly, it's not important to me what people

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Erica Sandberg: want or… well, it is important to me. What I'm saying is.

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Erica Sandberg: I don't take offense. You have a strong opinion, it's different than mine. Awesome! Wonderful! This is what a conversation is about. This is… you should have that freedom to express yourself. I hate that statue, never won an up, and here's why. Great! I want it back, here's why.

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Erica Sandberg: Great.

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Erica Sandberg: we have to become extremely comfortable saying, I disagree, or… or I, you know, I would prefer you agree. But… but I say, I don't care, I'm not gonna take it off. I don't… I don't mind at all. I don't think you mind at all.

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Richie Greenberg: And yeah, and you know me, I absolutely don't care what…

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Erica Sandberg: Yeah.

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Richie Greenberg: At all, just say whatever you want, I want to hear it.

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Erica Sandberg: I've become very practiced at saying…

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Erica Sandberg: that, the two-sentence, that two-word sentence, I disagree. Get used to saying that. It's nice. You don't have to say it in a cruel way, or confrontational.

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Richie Greenberg: And also, in a positive state, yes, I agree.

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Erica Sandberg: 100%, I agree, I disagree. These are the things that we need to do a lot more often. Be open, say what you mean, mean what you say. And, I welcome it. So, yeah, hit me up on X, I'm here, and I'm so grateful for people

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Erica Sandberg: For listening, joining in on the conversation, and go San Franciscans!

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Erica Sandberg: I'll see you at the Columbus Day, celebration, Columbus Day Italian American Heritage Indigenous People Celebration.

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Erica Sandberg: In October. Bye!

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Richie Greenberg: Bye, bye-bye. Bye.