The Good Bottle Podcast
Chris Sinclair owns a bottle shop, a bar and has been a world famous Bartender. Drew Garrison is a liquor broker and is known internationally as one of the afore most knowledgable people in the world of Agave and Rum
Sit and listen to the guys talk to amazing people who help breakdown the information of the moment and offer insight based in real world knowledge.
The Good Bottle Podcast
S.6 Ep. 10 (part 2): The Agave Spirit Revolution: Tradition Meets Innovation (Feat. Mitch Wilson & Phil Bayly)
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What if we told you there's a new vodka made entirely from agave, launching soon? Join us on the Good Bottle Podcast as Chris Sinclair sits down with industry veterans Mitch Wilson and Phil Bayly to unpack the buzz around Weber Ranch 1902 Vodka. Mitch voices his doubts about the necessity of another vodka on store shelves, while Phil makes a compelling case for the unique opportunities agave-based spirits offer. The discussion heats up as they consider the involvement of heavyweights from Patron and Southern Glacier in this venture, diving into the challenges and excitement of bringing agave vodka to market.
Beyond this new vodka, our conversation broadens to the dynamic world of agave spirits. We explore the delicate balance between tradition and the commercial boom of tequila and mezcal. From Patron's evolution to the political hurdles in mezcal certification, and the global proliferation of agave spirits, we leave no stone unturned. We also shed light on the scarcity of mature agave, the rising prices, and the importance of sustainable practices. Get ready for a deep, thought-provoking episode full of industry insights and future trends that will shape the agave spirits market.
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Agave Vodka Industry Experts Discuss
Speaker 2Welcome to the Good Bottle Podcast . Join Chris and Drew , two self-proclaimed boost pundits with a lifetime of industry experience , as they walk you through the alcohol business and how today's headlines affect the industry . Each week , the guys will be joined by a special guest that will help them break down these stories and offer their own expertise to the podcast . So pour yourself a glass of your favorite drink and sit back . This is the Good Bottle Podcast .
Speaker 3This is the Good Bottle Podcast .
Speaker 2I am your host .
Speaker 3Chris Sinclair , and I'm still here all by my lonesome , without Drew , but that's fine , because who needs that guy ? Anyway , I am back with our two very lovely guests . Mitch Wilson and Phil Bailey . Gentlemen , how are you Having a good night , good day , I did it again . I did it again . It's still night for me , sorry .
Speaker 4Doing good , chris , thanks for having us .
Speaker 1Absolutely Feeling . No pain , brother .
Speaker 3I love that . Oh no , I hit the wrong . It's all fine , everything's fine . No worries , Everything's fine . It's just show business . Everybody , all right , I am with Mitch and Phil . Gentlemen , who are you ? Please talk to our listeners and save me from my bumbling . Mitch , take it away .
Speaker 4Hey , sir , I'm Mitch Wilson . I am the editor for Tequila Ambassador VO version original . Some of you may know me more from the rum world , where I'm the global ambassador for Blacktop Rum . So yeah , rum by day , books by night . I don't know . The other way around maybe .
Speaker 3And Phil , please introduce yourself to our listeners .
Speaker 1My name is Phil Bailey . I am the photographer and the key designer for the Tequila Ambassador VO book and I was the official ambassador for mescal but since retired not retired , I actually resigned because of political stuff but I'm a gavi lover and I love sharing the love and love , loving tequila , mescal all and talking a lot of shit , basically .
Speaker 3Well , we love that , you love , and we love you for that . All right , guys , let's hop right into our headlines . This week we have a wonderful product launch release , notice I don't know Whatever . It's called Weber Ranch 1902 Vodka is going to be vodka made from agave . It's made in Dallas from agave from Jalisco . Gentlemen , how into the weeds do you want to ?
Speaker 2get on .
Speaker 3This Are we going to be politically good , or are we going to make it colorful ? Mitch you first .
Speaker 4I mean , I just don't know if the world needs more vodka to start with .
Speaker 3I think my favorite quote from their marketing director is if your vodka tastes like your French fries , do you really want to drink it ? But this also comes from the same guy who was selling Tito's for a long time , so I don't know how credible he is . Phil , what do you think is ? Is this sort of a logical conclusion to you where tequila has ?
Speaker 3become the number one spirit , uh , selling spirit in the united states now , the united states being one of the largest spirits markets in the world . Is this sort of the logical conclusion ? Like we've just , we're so overwhelmed with tequila , now we have to figure out something new to do with agave well , I have mixed feelings and I love the traditional nature of tequila and mezcal .
Speaker 1Where it comes from , you know all that is related to it . But at the same time , I think we have to remember what makes all these categories tequila and mezcal so unique is the raw material the agave . Tequila and mezcal so unique is the raw material the agave . And so for me , I don't want to limit myself in any way to not exploring what the agave may bring . The purist might go oh my God , we shouldn't do this . But I'm thinking like now , with the growth of agave spirits around the world , in France and Spain and Australia and South Africa , it will never be tequila , it will never be mezcal , but the raw material is so incredibly rich and diverse , I think why not Now ? If I'm going to drink agave spirits , I'm generally going to be drinking tequila and mezcal , but if this is going to help people discover tequila mezcal , I'm open . It's not going to be necessarily my choice I kind of love that .
Speaker 3I , um , I I get a lot of shit from my co-host , who thankfully isn't here right now , because I actually , I actually enjoy vodka . I think it has a great place , both culturally as well , as you know , taste being a wonderful addition to meals , food Like . I enjoy vodka as a way of expressing , sort of a pure form of distillate . I think it's lovely . I do think that this is going to provide a new experience . I mean , if nothing else , agave is an upper and everything else is a downer right , so at very least , your physical experience is going to be something a little bit different . I am curious , though this new product , weber Ranch 1902 , is one of , as far as I know , two agave vodkas that are on the market right now . I think Crystal Head Vodka has the other one , which is owned by what , dan Aykroyd Is that right ? Weber Ranch , though , is being started by the old , old owner of Patron , john Paul DeGioia .
Speaker 2DeGioia , am I saying that right ?
Speaker 1DeGioia , yes .
Speaker 3And he's bringing along with him Patron's old CEO , president , chief operating officer , chief marketing officer and the former chief operating officer of Southern Glacier , which is I mean , that's a powerhouse of a company if I've ever fucking heard one . It's just so wild to me that this is being produced out of Dallas and they're importing agave from Jalisco across the border , which has to have its own headaches bringing in raw material across the border .
Agave Spirits Trends and Market Stability
Speaker 3I think what also confuses me is , you know , for a lot of my education about agave spirits has been this sort of narrative that agave is being over cultivated and over harvested . Phil , is this , is this some ? Does this have a basis in reality or is this is just ? Is this a marketing narrative that that bartenders in America kind of get told , in order to draw on this like romanticism of a dissipating spirit , that we have to drink it now , while we have it , because we might not have it in the future ?
Speaker 1Talking about Mescal , I would say yes , but we're talking about the previous owners of Patron . I think it's important to remember where did Patron come from and what was their original marketing . So when Patron first came on the market it was really pushing itself to the vodka drinker . And in fact I remember there was this thing where this girl walked into a New York bar and she said I want a shot of Patron . And the bartender says well , actually we don't have any Patron , but we got some great tequilas . And she says I don't drink tequila , I only drink Patron .
Speaker 1The big thing for me that I think made Patron such a huge success was that you know , they had the hip hop thing and they were marketing it to vodka drinkers . The fact that they're now making a vodka from agave is like a natural progression . I think Patron is actually a really well made tequila as well . I think in the I mean , they do a lot of filtration at the end to take out a lot of the the elements that I really enjoy and it sort of neutralizes it somewhat but it makes it very palatable and approachable for a lot of people . But I think where this product has come from is like a natural progression of where Patron originally came from and how they they moved forward .
Speaker 1When you're talking about Mescal , for example and it's interesting because , as I mentioned before , the Mescal regulatory council made me their first official Mescal ambassador and I held that position for a number of years until the politics changed and there was all this fighting , infighting between different groups Now there's something like four different bodies that involved in the regulation or you know , the certification of Mescal . But I was very much like well , if it's not made under the umbrella of Mezcal with all the requirements , then it's no good . But in fact now , because of all this political upheaval and stuff that's gone . I just said you know what ? I'm not in this for the politics . I'm in this because I love the producers . If I'm representing one group , does that mean I'm not representing the others ? So I just said I'm out of here . I just want to be promoting all good mezcal and agave spirits , and so even some of the great mezcal producers have no longer used the name mezcal .
Speaker 3They are now going to distillate the agave because of all this , there's a , there's a lot , I mean , and some are , some are you know and some are new , I think , like you'd mentioned before there's some really exciting agave spirits coming from all over the world . We have some coming here in California . Drew and I have talked about that pretty often . We have some friends who are starting like an agave farmer lobbying group here . But there's agave coming out of Peru . There's agave coming out of South Africa and . Australia . I agree with you .
Speaker 3I think , as long as the production is , you know , transparent and , you know , made with care , I think there's room for everybody . I think it's really a lovely experience to be able to , you know , I mean , we make brandy from everywhere in the world , like , why not a Gavi Spirit ?
Speaker 1Yeah , and I mean for me , if I want to drink tequila , I know what I'm going to drink .
Speaker 2If I want to drink mezcal .
Speaker 1I know what I want to drink and I think the concern with mezcal now with its growth and the way it's being .
Speaker 1You know well , in fact I feel responsible for promoting the category in many ways that it's now really just getting to a stage where it's going over the top . Every man and his dog wants to drink mezcal , not because it's good , but because it's cool and hip and trendy . And in fact , one of the big things with you know , they're now making mescal using diffusers and really , you know , very commercial in bulk production . Originally I was very much like , oh , this is no good , because it's not like the traditional mescals that were produced . But in fact , when I look back on it and in more discussions , those products are being used .
Speaker 1They're being produced and used to use in making cocktails , where you're not taking some rare , you know precious agave which is , you know , it takes 25 years to grow or 35 years to put into a cocktail . And so a lot of the people who are drinking mezcal cocktails , they don't really care what they're drinking , they just want to be seen that hey , I drink mezcal . So this is actually protecting that part of the industry . And in fact , if you look at the three categories of classes , I think there's mezcal and then there's artisanal mescal and then ancestral mescal . Artisanal mescal is still the biggest category , and it's something like around 90% of production is all artisanal . And then you got something less .
Speaker 3It's all coming out of Oaxaca as well , I mean , except for like a handful .
Speaker 1I was like San Louis Potosi , yeah that's it , but a vast majority of it . So I mean I think that what is happening in that market is really interesting , that there is actually room for both , because the people who drink single malt scotch aren't really going to drink blended scotch and the people who are really into drinking these rare , beautiful , beautiful , authentic , you know , ancestral mezcals are not really interested in drinking , you know , diffuser-made , mass-produced mezcal . So it's filling a part of that market that's expanding and protecting the other side . My feeling Now , the idea that you know that they're doing now tequila , cristalero , and they're doing agave-flavoured tequilas and this tequila and this tequila . I mean they're just trying to expand into the market that is generally not drinking tequila and there is so much land still available to grow agaves . It's not like , oh my God , they've got no room to grow it . They have still got plenty of space in the DO of tequila and obviously mezcal . It's just more comes down to the shortages come from demand .
Speaker 3Do you foresee that that's going to be , you know , because we've heard stories of sort of the cyclical nature of agave growth and with tequila consumption , where it grows and then it falls , and it grows and it falls and you have this issue of , like , growing and sinking agave prices as a raw product . Are you imagining that that's like now that's going to help sort of , you know , stabilize that market maybe ?
Speaker 1well , I've experienced that three times in my lifetime and it usually happens every 10 years . And it's that thing where a lot of the growers I mean , for example , if I take carlos camarino , I remember him telling me from tapatio to sorrow . He was saying he's both a grower and a producer , a distiller , and he's going when the price of agave is high , he sells agaves . When the price of agave is low , he makes tequila , he's making infantil . It's like being in a lottery and holding all the tickets . You can't go wrong . But a lot of people are just farmers and they're growing agaves consistently . But then as well you get a lot of speculation where people go oh , the price for agave , what was ? Just 32 pesos a kilo or something . I mean ridiculous price .
Speaker 1And I've seen it at less than a peso a kilo , where they don't even harvest the agaves because it costs more to harvest them than it does for them to actually what what they're going to get back for them . So that's where a lot of people come into the industry and they go . Price of agaves is massive . Let's grow agaves , they grow agaves . All those agaves ripen at the same time and the price of agaves falls , you know , out through the bottom .
Speaker 1And then they go . Well , no point in growing agaves because there's no money in this . So then there's this shortage of agaves in another , you know eight , ten years or six years or whatever it is now .
Speaker 1And it's created that sort of cyclic up and down . Now I think , with the technology and the growth of the category , and now also with agave syrup , all these sort of factors , I think it will become more consistent in supply , supply of agave . And now they're able to , with some of the technology they're using , they can take not even mature agaves . In fact it used to say in the norm , you know , mature agave , tequila and whatever . Now it just says agave . So they're taking agaves four years old or whatever . Wow .
Speaker 1And pumping out juice and once again you know the people who are . This growth in tequila category in particular tequila more so at the moment than mezcal . It's just been so huge .
Speaker 1But I'd say it is more for new people entering the market than the steadfast like you know , I'm only going to drink 100% agave tequila , made in a copper pot , still , and it has to be this size and naturally fermented or whatever , which is great . I mean that's what I want to drink . 100% agave tequila , made in a copper pot , still , and has to be this size , naturally fermented , whatever , which is great . I mean that's what I want to drink . But a lot of people don't care what they're drinking , they just want a spirit and they want to be seen drinking tequila or agave spirit .
Tequila Market Trends and Agave Cultivation
Speaker 3Do you think that the consumption of those agave and those techniques are driving the price down for , let's say , commercial tequilas ? Do you foresee that that's going to push the price of premium tequilas ? When I say premium tequilas , I'm not saying it as like a marketing term . What I'm saying is like a production term . You know the ochos , the fortalezas , you know the tequilas that pride themselves on solid production . Do you think that's pushing the price up because it makes it harder to get mature agave ?
Speaker 1Well , it's probably tempting for people to harvest agaves sooner . But I see those people who are making good tequila . I don't see any reason why their price should actually go up , as opposed to the people who are pumping it out and they're going for that . You know the house poor . You know the what's in the rack , for you want to kill it . Doesn't matter what the brand is . This is the cheapest one I can buy . So I think the price is probably going down more than those other tequilas going up . But at the same time , I mean you look at some of the tequilas on the market now and I'm just saying tequila , but it's like thousands of dollars . But in all honesty , in most cases I would say you're paying for the bottle . You're not actually paying for the juice inside and paying for the bottle is that thing of you know . It's like well , let's try this one . So it's the prestige of what you're drinking rather than the spirit itself , I'm saying anyway , mitch , as someone who's uh , whose literal job it is to travel the world , what ?
Speaker 3I'm stuck here in Sacramento , california , so I'm very much in my own bubble . I read stories , I have headlines it's the best that I've got . But you're out there , you're in the field , you're seeing it , you're crossing international borders , you're collecting stamps in your book . What is the vibes in terms of the market ? I mean , like I said , tequila has moved into the number one spot in the US . Are you finding that that maybe is a growth category , or is it sitting up near top one right now ? Sitting up near top one right now and does something like Agave Vodka have a place that is going to re-infiltrate or the word that often gets used is disrupt a marketplace to find its way in there ? I realize I hit you with like three questions all at once , but as you're out , in the world the world as is your job .
Speaker 3Are you seeing that tequila has like reached a peak , or is it still shooting ? Is it ? You know , rocket strapped , as drew likes to say ?
Speaker 4no , no , I don't . I don't think it's anywhere near its peak yet . Um , I mean it's . It's interesting when I go to the states seeing seeing how far along the agave culture is there compared to a lot of places . I mean , we have amazing tequila bars in Europe and around the world but it's not as widespread and it's not as ubiquitous as I think you find it in the States , certainly . So I think there's still plenty of room for growth . I mean it .
Speaker 4It is interesting when you start to look at the raw material and what you're talking about and and some of these companies taking the agaves younger and younger and younger . I think one of the one of the really eye-opening experiences that I had when we were doing the sort of research for the book and Phil and I went over to Mexico and we met some of the producers and we went to Rio Monero and met Graciela there and I thought it was so interesting , like her philosophy towards agave and really letting the agaves grow out their coyotes and creating the seed library of different agaves that they're trying to nurture and make sure survive , and just that diversity of agaves and letting that natural reproduction happen rather than just the clones of the agaves coming through and I think when you start looking at on that level , you go , wow , okay , there's a . There's a lot more to consider here with the agave which , I mean , we already know . I mean I'm I'm a rum guy through and through , but I don't think any spirit in the world can touch agave for its , its raw material , you know anything that takes that long to grow and that many years to to reach maturity . I think it's just there's nothing like it in the spirit's world . And and it's tricky , you know it's tricky , when you're looking at something like this and you see an agave vodka , you know , I think , yeah , there might be an instant recoil for many of us , but I'm always hesitant when one I've never tasted it .
Speaker 4And you know , I think , with all these things , what's important is where , where is that money going ? You know , is there ? Is there money going back to the , the farmers in mexico ? You know , okay , it's being produced out of texas . Is that , I don't ? I don't know . That adds another layer to that , that whole question . But if it's , if it's helping , if it's helping farmers , if it's , if it's creating more interest in agave , if , as phil says , it gets more people into the agave category as another stepping stone . That potentially can be a good thing . But yeah , I think the part which probably concerns a lot of people is if you're trying to make a neutral spirit and you've spent eight years growing something to just make it neutral , that seems like a waste , it seems like a shame , you know . So I'd say I'd be curious to taste it , I'd be curious to see what they're putting out and , you know , hopefully it's something that's putting more money into the pockets of the Garvey family somewhere .
Speaker 3Yeah , I definitely went into this conversation with a knee-jerk reaction . I definitely went into this conversation with a with a knee jerk reaction and I will say Phil has brought a very educated and wise sense to talk me down off my ledge of of hatred and jadedness . I am , I am with you , mitch . I would like to taste it Like that's . That's my baseline , anyway is like let me know that the proof's in the pudding for almost everything . Right , it's like I want to know what comes out of the ball and what goes into the glass . And that will most likely be my final opinion on everything . And as a self-professed vodka lover , I'm here for it . I've tasted everything from baby potatoes to fermented cow's milk and I'm sure I'm not done tasting whatever kind of weird vodkas come out . So why not add this one to the list as well ? All right , now Drew's very favorite part of the episode Dope follows .
Speaker 3You know who's dope them over there . All right , phil , we're going to start off with you . Who should our listeners be paying attention to right now ? Wow ?
Speaker 1Man , I have no idea . Tell you the truth . Maybe me Pay attention to me . Listen , folks , I like that .
Speaker 3You're a first . Actually , I say just go with it .
Speaker 1But I think , well , the only thing I can really think of is going to the comicamorg , which is the mescalcom website , and follow their statistics , their information . It used to be mescalcom , I think it still is mescalcom , but there's some really good information about what's happening with agaves . Well , for the mescal category anyway , and I think that's really the only one I could suggest that I would say has really influenced me . And you have to remember as well , I'm quite biased because I only drink agave spirits . Before in my younger days I would spend , you know , one week I'd drink whiskey , next week I'd drink vodka , next week I'd drink rum , I'd drink , and . But now it's only agave spirits , because I think that works for me . It seems to be kind to my body and it makes it really simple to decide what I want to drink when I'm going to go .
Speaker 2The other thing for me as well , is that you ?
Speaker 1know if I'm drinking tequila . So when I'm drinking tequila I'm usually up there on the roof going let's fucking party man . Special vibe that I really enjoy .
Speaker 3I love that and I love the vibe as well . I hope to be able to see it one day . I've got to be honest .
Speaker 1Mitch , who's your joke follow ? I just think . I hope to be able to share some agave with you one day soon .
Speaker 3I would be very honored sir .
Speaker 4So from my side , a couple of shout outs . I guess one person who couldn't be here on the podcast today , I guess one person who couldn't be here on the podcast today . But if you love tequila and you want to sort of be a part of Tomas' legacy , tomas' son , jesse , is the global ambassador for Ocho Tequila and has been a great friend and supporter through us for getting this book out , so you can follow him at Jesse Ocho and he will be , like myself , traveling the world , drinking tequila in exotic places and making us all very jealous . Also , wonk Press Books , our publisher . They've got some amazing books . If you're into rum or tequila , as I say , it's been amazing to work with them , so you can follow them too .
Speaker 4And then a couple of couple of different ones . Uh , if you're , I've got to get some rum into there , because otherwise it just wouldn't feel wouldn't feel natural . There's a guy called arminda who has a a video blog series called Rum Revival and I think he's doing some amazing stuff in rum education and doing really great deep dives into rum and education out there that everyone should be following . And a little bar from Amsterdam that's just started up in the last few months and is getting some recognition . That tells the cocktail and some other places called groovy fluids great name but uh , their their handle on instagram is groovy underscore fluids , underscore lab . And yeah , they're . They're just lovely , lovely people opening up a bar again , just putting something good into the world and sharing it with the local community in amstam . So , uh , yeah , give them a follow , check them out . They've got good things ahead , I think that's fantastic .
Speaker 3Well , mine is very simple . On instagram , it's a cheesy talk with madeline and it's a cheesy it's two e's z y . This is someone who is very , very on our level , talking about how we talk about booze . She talks about cheese and , god damn it , I love cheese and it is so much fun to listen to her educate and discuss cheese and every time I leave I uh , you know , see one of her videos I just want to go out and buy all the cheese , which is not great for my heart or my waistline , but it's great for my soul and that's okay . So cheesy talk with Madeline and those are our dope followers .
Speaker 3The music for the Good Bottle Podcast is orchestrated by Leon and Chase Moore and produced pretty great by me . If you've enjoyed this episode , can you ?
Speaker 1please subscribe and give us a five star review . Thank you .
Speaker 3Simple things like that make a huge difference for a tiny little podcast like ours . You can follow us on Instagram or on Facebook at TheGoodBottlePodcast , and Drew at DGarrison6 . And me at ChrisSynFlair on the Instagrams and , honestly , all the things where you require an at to follow me . Mitch , where can people find you on the on the interwebs ?
Speaker 4you can find me at . At mitch said this and for the book at tequila , ambassador vo and mr philip bailey .
Speaker 3Where can people find you and follow all your shenanigans ?
Speaker 1so phil bailey , so p-h-i-l-b-a-y-l-y on instagram and also agave love book on instagram .
Speaker 3As always , we'd like to thank each and every one of you for tuning in and listening to this . If there's anyone you think we should talk to and reach out to , please hit us up and I'll make sure I get through nice and litty so we can get his courage up to ask . And with all that , gentlemen , it's been an honor , cheers . I can't wait to see you in person at some point in time in the future .
Speaker 4Thank you , Chris .
Speaker 1Being a real honor and my friend thank you . Thank you for your time and interest .
Speaker 3It has absolutely been my pleasure .