Making Systems Stick with Matt Brill

Reece sits down with Matt Brill of Bauen Build to break down change management for builders, from new software to new build standards, without losing the team along the way. They talk about what actually drives buy in, how to keep craftspeople focused on the work they love, and why clarity is so important. You will leave with practical ways to tighten budgets, approvals, and communication while still building a great product. If this hit home, share it with a builder friend and check out the links for more.

https://bauenbuild.com

Show Notes:
00:00 The 80% Rule
00:42 Matt Brill Intro
02:58 Continuous Improvement
07:52 Culture and Cadence
13:59 Products vs Systems
19:29 Make Systems Stick
25:12 Right Roles
29:38 Commercial Process
37:01 Clarity Wins
46:35 Teach The Why

Find Our Hosts:
Reece Barnes
Matt Calvano

Podcast Produced By:
Motif Media

Transcript

0:00

What I tell my team is like, I want you doing like 80% of what you love every single day, and if you're not on that percentage, then you're probably not going to be happy in the long run. Welcome to builders, budgets and beers. I'm Rhys Barnes and I started this podcast to have real conversations about money in the building industry, the wins, the mistakes and everything in between. I believe builders deserve to feel confident about their finances, and that starts by hearing from others who've been through it too. This industry can be slow to change, but the right stories and the right tools can make profitability feel possible. Let's get into it. Mike, sure, are hot, you're loud and clear. You sound, you sound just clear as a bell, Matt, you do too. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Is it show or podcast? I like saying coming on the show. I like show. Yeah, it feels like a show listening to your other episodes. Yeah, I appreciate you for being a committed follower, too. By the way, I've been, I've been spreading the word. It's, it's a good I've learned some things from other builders you've had on and it's good to listen to, you know, driving between job sites and just kind of taking in what you're what you're sharing. So, yeah, thank you. Totally, I love it well. And that's, you know, little motivation for listeners out there. You know, we have a gold committed follower that wants to jump on the show. Jump in my DMs. We can have you join, but no. Matt, okay, thank you so much. Let's give the listeners a little background on yourself, who you are, where you build, what you build from the basics, yeah. Matt brill, we're, I'm with Bauen Build. Owner and founder, we are based in Boulder Colorado. We work throughout the Front Range, but primarily in and around Boulder County. It's really great place to work. We have a really fortunate benefit of having a lot of great architects in the region that are really committed to building and designing with building science at the forefront, and that's something that is something we do not compromise on. So we, we typically, when we're meeting new clients or architects, we definitely say we're on the spectrum of building performance. We're on that passive house, you know, or quote, unquote, high performance end of the spectrum. We are not, you know, we're not in here in the business to building anything near code. Code built homes. And we do all types of, you know, finish levels. So we're doing some more basic homes, where maybe the owners just really focus on building long term, durable structure. And then we do, you know, on the higher end, where, you know, we might have, you know, much longer schedule, much more dialed in details, a lot of higher end architectural finishes. So we're we're flexible on the how it looks when it's delivered to the client, but we have a pretty hard floor on what that wall assembly and all the detailing that goes into building a really durable, long lasting structure, 100% Well, and that's so first for everyone listening, you should 100% check out Matt's work. It's Bowen B, A, U, e n, build with a d.com, check out his stuff, because you'll see it like, just even, like the architectural, like design that you guys have. But I think like, the quality of that you guys are building is great, and I think that would be interesting to jump into. But I think, like, primarily, and this kind of goes on, a thing that I wanted to pick your brain on in this episode, which is like, largely change management, we can start with, just like over the years of you building right, build science is constantly evolving, always a new product, always a new theory, more science, more physics, more logic applied, right? How do you stay on top of it? How do you apply it? How do you build that into a very competitive product in the market? Yeah, it's a great question, and it's so true, things are evolving, you know, by the month. And for me, it's just, it's reading and consuming, you know, podcasts like yourself, videos online, talking to other builders. I have a really good network of builders in the region that, you know, we partner with each other, help each other on maybe problems we're having. So it is, it's a constant. You have to be constantly up to speed on both materials, systems sequencing and what we do in terms of, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of content available, there's a lot to integrate, and that can be overwhelming. And so as a team, one thing that we've done is we've we as we learn these new things, either on our own projects, like, Hey, I wish we would have done this differently, or let's do this differently next time, we integrate that into our template project schedule, and then we have a checklist associated with all the different phases of our of our projects. And I think we're over 2000 items long on our checklist. So that's just like all the little things that you need as a site manager to remember, you know, when you're at that phase of the project. And we like that approach because. Is, if you had to look at a list of 2000 items, you'd be like, Oh my gosh, where do I start? So we really compartmentalize it into the different phases, so you don't have to worry about that until you're getting close to that phase of the project. Yeah. So it's, it's a lot, and I think the other big thing is just partnering with your trade partners and architects to just, like, document lessons learned, like, what went well, what didn't go well, because it's not just your team, it's all the other people around you that could have input or ideas to make the process faster, better, more efficient. So yeah, it's a constant, and we're constantly looking at that as a team and making sure we're documenting it as we go, and not just at the end of the project. Totally well, okay, so that's actually okay. So it's like, it's a continuous development. Wait, what do they call it? It's a CICD in the software world, continuous improvement, continuous deployment. Yeah, that's it's what we're doing. And the funny thing, what makes it hard is that if we identify a new learning and we've already, like, spawned that new project, and it's already underway, we have a whole tracking sheet to make sure that those future items are actually folded into that project, because it's, if it's already started, the templates no longer really relevant. And so it is. It is a decent amount of work, just for the in flight projects, to make sure you're incorporating those lessons learned in real time totally well. And it's kind of like, you know, it's like, Job Costing, right? I'm gonna rope this back into Financials, right? It's like, you're gonna be like, you're getting invoices that are piling and you've got projects that are starting and stopping, and they're in different phases, and you've got this, like, huge machine that's turning but it's like, if you're just got an invoice for foundations, and you're running a bid on a house, and you're trying to, like, job cost and estimate it. It's kind of like having that real time information and applying it 100% just like what you're doing with the build side. No, like, we're talking about, like, product, right? Like, build science material. Okay, I was you made a comment about, like, almost like a reflection. I call it a post mortem, yeah, but I don't think it's like, I'm sure you run a post mortem process. We do your projects, and we try to not just have it be at the end, so we're kind of continually as a team where it's so it's not just at the end, because otherwise you're not going to remember the nuances of what that lesson learned was unless you kind of document it right away, totally, totally. And I think so this is like, kind of, like, more of the general question that I'm, like, wanting to talk about, which we're already doing. But this is, like, the change management, right? It's like, it sounds like you've got a team that's, like, very much taking ownership of the projects they care, right? Like they're taking the time to document these things as the build is going right? Is that a you thing? Is that something that you've curated, is this an employee thing, like, why is this common in the industry? Yeah, great question. I certainly I create the time and space for that to happen. I think you have to be soliciting it, you have to want, want that level of expectation from your team. And we were a pretty small team. We're six people. You know, everyone has a combination of a building background and some other unique background, whether it's design or engineering. And so I think, just like that holistic knowledge base that our team comes with to each project. It definitely is, is ingrained in them too. So I think, I don't think if you had a team that wasn't necessarily interested in you're asking for it, you might not get that reciprocation. So I think it's a it's both. You have to create the time and the space, but at the end of the day, you have to have a team that's interested in it and wanting to be better themselves on that next project and making sure that we're delivering it even higher, whether it's, you know, air tightness on a blower door, like we are constantly trying to get that number down, and everyone is invested in it. And I think that mentality permeates through all the different components of a build. Have you? Have you worked with or hired people that don't have that interest or want? I Yes, there was one. And I think it was interesting past tense, yeah, and I think it was an interesting dynamic, like, I'd say, a relatively skilled site manager, but didn't have that same passion, I think to to just continually improve and like, take the time at the end of the day, or maybe you're super tired and you want to go home, but like, hey, let's just capture this quickly. And so I think, and that's why I think it's a two way street. You can't just want it from your team. Your team is going to also have to really be invested to even take the time to document it, let alone share it with you totally. But you made a comment of like, you have to create the time, create the space for it, right, absolutely. And so what does that? What does that tactically look like? Are you when you is that an expectation set on the recruiting and interviewing process and then built into motion within the team and organization? Is it rigid like, hey, everyone needs to spend an hour? Or a week reviewing their work and document. What is this, actually? Yeah, it's a good, good question. I think there's, there's three components. So we have a weekly production meeting that's a little bit more focused on, you know, the tactical schedules, who's, who's, who's where, who's doing what, and then we have a bi weekly team meeting, and then a bi weekly, or, sorry, once a month lunch. So that gives us two space, two times for a month, for our team to just get together in a more casual setting. And I think that's where we're, that's where I'm putting those things on the agenda, like, hey, we just finished this. Let's talk about it. Or, you know, the whole team can add things to the agenda if they want to bring up a certain topic. So that that's what, that's the main space we create, and then it's honestly a lot of because I've we've gotten into this habit over a number of years, if something, if something's on somebody's mind, they will just ping the team chat and be like, we need to do this differently next time, and then I'll fold it into our checklist, and then any in flight projects get the same updates. And so it's really just kind of literally continual, and it's, it's the mentality that, you know, the team members in the field are, I'm not going to wait for that team meeting like this is on my mind now. I'm going to just share it. And I think that's awesome. And you'll see dialog back and forth on our, our team chat thread of, you know, other ideas or components. That's a beautiful thing. Matt, do you? Do you recognize that? Do you? Do you like? I think it might. If you don't, there's a good opportunity to maybe like what, what you've done is not normal. No, it's, it's, honestly, the team is, is, you know, like most builders, know, I mean, there's hundreds of people on a job site, you know, so it permeates down to all the trade partners. But yeah, as a team, I actually, I tell my team a lot, like, last weekend, you know, Friday, I was like, you know, everyone was crushing it. Last week, it was busy, it was stressful. And I was like, you know, just telling everyone, like, I'm thankful for all of you. And, you know, just trying to not forget and not take for granted, like, all the brainpower and stress and energy that everyone's putting forward for these projects, you know, when you're building on that, that end of the spectrum of high performance, the sequencing and detailing is really immense, and it can, it can be stressful. And so, yes, I, I recognize it, and I do try not to forget it, because it's, it's pretty special. Yeah, that's great. Um, I mean, it's in your culture at this point, right? It's not, this isn't really even like, like, a conversation of, like, change management when it comes to the it's an expectation, actually, before I go down this path. Question, you said you guys are communicating in your team, yeah, what do you guys use to communicate? Is it a text thread? No, we use Google, Google, Google products. We have Gmail and all that. So we use Google Chat, and basically have a space, I think they call it, for every project. So we have, you know, and most of the team members are in every project, just so they can keep abreast, because we're, you know, we have a dedicated site manager, but definitely people are floating as needed. So we have a dedicated space for each project, and then we have a dedicated team chat where we're just, like, more generic stuff that are not project specific, where we can communicate, and we got a marketing channel, a social media channel, so, like, the different people that need to know certain topics, we can so it's pretty much like Slack is what we've set up. But because we're already in Gmail, we kind of keep it in one ecosystem, yeah, for sure. Okay, that was, that was more of a side note. I just did a post on this with like, like, using slack as, like a client portal. It's just more like client facing, but you're using it for chat. I just think it's interesting with, like, all the project management software out there in communication. Totally. Okay, so cool. So a lot of communication, and this, to tie it back into the change management side, is, again, this isn't like, oh man, like, Matt's got us using a new building material, and now we got to figure out how to do it right, and we like, zip or, I don't even know, I'm terrible when it comes to the actual material side. Do you have pushback when people are like, we use this product and it sucked, or we use this product and we think it could be better, and we want to use this product like, Yeah, it's funny. From change management perspective, is just coming to me. You know, everyone's super open minded. And I think there's 222, angles to talk about. One is on, like the build side of the product side, and then the other is on, just like the system side. And I think on the build product side, my team is definitely not shy, like, if they don't like a product and they think there's a better something out there, they'll definitely not be shy to bring that up. And I'm generally very open, as long as it's like a high performing, high quality product, which they're not going to suggest something crappy, I'm always open to trying it. And we do, we do experiment like sometimes, if it's like, we have a project right now where there's a garage, a separate structure than a house, and we're actually experimenting with two different materials, and then we're going to kind of decide which one we like the best, and kind of use that going forward, depending upon the type of structure. So I think it's it's definitely nobody shy to bring up that stuff. And I think on the more like system side, I. Wouldn't say, I get pushback, but like, you know, we've implemented adaptive a few years ago. We use builder trend, and there's definitely a learning curve. And I think getting in the habit of, like, looking at the to the to do items that are coming up, you know, approving the bills and invoices in adaptive like that has taken time to get people on board, and I think it's because they're they're so excited about doing the work in front of them that, like, that's kind of a distraction. And they're like, you can worry about that. I don't want to have to worry about that. But at the end of the day, like, I do need their investment, especially on, like, the adaptive side, like, we're getting enough bills each month that, like I want their, you know, their sign off to make sure that they are good with what's being submitted, and we can, you know, accurately pay that. So that definitely takes continual reminders and and I think they're finally getting on on board with that. I think part of it's just like dialing in how, how how that shows up in their inbox. And, you know, setting expectation of timing, because, you know, when I'm at month am like, you know, tomorrow, I don't want to go through and approve everything, and if it's Friday night, I don't want to bother them to like, Hey, did you look at this? Did you look at that? So they're now a little bit more in the same group, but that took more time and effort, despite having a super smart team that's really invested in, you know, kind of all aspects of the build. So I think there's still, you know, and you know, I can imagine maybe a company that has maybe, you know, less tech savvy team members that can be a big lift. But I think at the end of the day, that's not a reason not to be using, like, first class, you know, products and certain tools to just help you do a better job, to deliver the project, better communicate with your clients, and ultimately, like, make your life easier at the end, once you kind of get over that hurdle of implementation 100% well, and I mean, that was like, my like, general takeaway, when you're talking about, like, we've Got a team that's on it. They're not shy about, you know, everything that goes into the quality of the product, the installation of the product, the outcome of the product. Like, but that's their world, right? Yeah. These are, like, project managers. These are people that care. Like, I'm someone. Like, you stick me on a job site and you, like, ask me, like, Reese, would you think of these shingles or, like, I don't know, like, what did you think of this? Lvl, yeah, right. I'm like, Dude, it's a board. I don't know. We have that conversation. Like, what do you think of LSL treated plates versus two by six treated plates? Like, people, like, our team geeks out on that. And, you know, because there's a cost difference, you have to weigh like, Okay, was it worth the cost difference to have that LSL play that's super straight. So, yeah, they definitely geek out on it. Yeah, okay, but so and so that's, like, reasonable, right? Like, so the change management isn't, like, it isn't even a conversation. When you get a team that's talking about something care about, yeah, right, I think you bring up, like, the systems conversation, and that's like, that adage as old as time, right is, like another software, or I just got my team on this software, right and, like, there's no way I could go to them and say, like, we need to change it. Yeah. It's like, My thesis is, is because for them, like, they really don't care enough to track it. Their focus is on, again, like, the material the build side. But it doesn't really ever get, like, brought up as to how much more important could tracking your financials or tracking your project management, like, how much more important could it be than the actual build side of it? It should be viewed as this is coming from someone who's like, sells software right in the software world, right? But it's like, it's not, it's the same thing. And from my point of view now, where does that fall? Because change management is, like, certainly a topic of conversation, right? It's like, you got all these softwares out here trying to make the product more intuitive and easier to adopt, and more methodical and thoughtful and how they design it and build it like. How do you bridge that gap to get a team of builders, people that were born to work with their hands and be exceptional craftsmen, right to associate approving bills or tracking budgets or weekly whip reviews, right? Building that in and understanding, like, Okay, this is just like the numbers math side, but it's massively applicable to what I'm doing in the day to day in the field. Yeah, I think, I mean, for me, it's two things. Is one is kind of like the blocking and tackling level, like, you know, you got to make it easy so that you got to have laptops if you don't already have it, like, it's doing some of that stuff on your phone is not not easy, and it's cumbersome. So I think everyone on the team has a laptop. So that's like the kind of the floor. I think you're right, and that at the end of the day, it is the same, like outcome, like at the end of the we need to deliver that project. And part of delivering that project is that we have to bill is that we have to. Have invoices, we've got to track payments. Like, if that all falls apart, then the project doesn't get delivered. And that's so initially, like, I kind of took on most of that workload and but now, as we've gotten, you know, larger projects, more projects like, I'm relying on the team and their own kind of stamp of approval on a certain item to make sure that I'm confident to then proceed to approve it myself. So really, it's, it's and we use it. We have a lot of mantras that we use, and one of them is like, what's best for the project, you know, and so that that, that mentality can pervade, you know, pervade all types of what dilemmas or questions that you're facing, or maybe a difference of opinion with a trade partner, and like, let's take our egos out of the picture and say, like, what's best for the project, what's best for the outcome. And so that's what I've been using lately with just trying to get people up to speed. Because the reality is, like, I could probably approve 90% of the bills on my own, and I know they're good to go, but I I want to get the muscle memory in the team so that, you know, if we do scale a little bit bigger, we can then do that in a way that I feel like it's sustainable from a financial perspective. And so that's what I've just been sharing, is like, hey, I need your expertise, because you're there all day long. You know whether they did X, Y or Z, and whether that should be billed or not. And it goes with the perception of us as a company. If the client's a little shaky about, you know, the bills and invoices we're sending over to them like, that's not a even if we're building a great product in terms of the house, you know, that's not a good feeling for a client to have. So it's the holistic view, and I talk about that all the time with the team. You know, whether it's the cleanliness of the job site, how we're storing materials, like, yeah, it probably doesn't really matter, but it also sends a strong message to everyone that shows up on site that there's an expectation of doing something differently here. And so I think that's that's a maybe a channel by which, if you're struggling to get a team to adopt a new system you can kind of leverage what they care about, which is the build and say, like, actually, this is just as important totally. Do you have your project and this is, I think this is, like, pretty universal, maybe not, but like, like, when you're like, comping your project managers or like, maybe like comping, but like their expectations, right? And like what they own and what they're in charge of owning is a part of that. Like budget for sure, yeah, invoicing and cash flow Go ahead. Yeah, we so we have a structure of site managers at every job. And then we actually just hired our first project manager, like dedicated project manager. So previously, it was either me or we have an operations director that we were basically acting as pm and kind of dividing up the project so that really fell on us. And, you know, it doesn't give me as much time to just go to the job site and just observe what's going on and making sure my eyes are on the site, making sure that things are going to my expectations. And so we've hired a PM, and that is an expectation that they are owning that budget and owning all of the bills, making sure change orders are being issued to account for things that are changing or costs that are changing. So absolutely, it's in the job description, and I think it's, it's, you know, as we've grown as a company, that becomes really, really important to instill that level of ownership and making sure they feel empowered totally well. And I asked because it's like, it's like, it's like, on time and under budget, yeah, right. Which, like, what are two things that homes are never on time around their budget. It's like, it's like the ultimate, like, the point of emphasis, yeah, but even more so is it's like, upskilling your team, right? Like, just how you explain and articulate the buy in and the communication and the trust and the what, break the word doesn't matter. There's enough adjectives in there. Point being is, like, your team really cares about build science, yes, right. But like, when it comes to, like, upskilling and being like, dude, like, Here, here's a whip report. Like, let's go through what a whip report is. And like, of course, a WIP report is, is important for the accountants to close out the books and reconcile and make their entries and adjust for revenue and income, right? But how do we make this about you, right? It's like, how insane would that be if, on like, a weekly basis, you're going over WIP reports with your team and like, why are we over billed on this? Why are we under build on that? What did we miss here? Maybe this was miscategorized. Like, how do we start squaring this up? And then there's like, dedicated action items that are tied in to the stuff that they're doing on a weekly basis. I think that is the challenge, and that's where like, like, when you think about an employee, right? It's like developing skills and. Becoming better. It's like, Sure, the paycheck is, like, a part of it, and like, there's always going to be a level of people that's like, Dude, I just don't care. Like, I'm here to close deals or I'm here to build houses, right? Like you, I'll leave this up to you, but what's your take on that? No, it's funny. And there's a couple of team members that I have that, you know, they're super smart, super talented, and it's like, you know what's, what's your trajectory? And, you know, my vision was that they would kind of transition from a site manager to a project manager, but both of them were like, Absolutely not. I do not want to have that level of responsibility. I don't want to be on my computer more than I'm on site. And so I think also recognizing it's not, not everyone wants to just continue to, quote, unquote, move up the ladder. And I think it's having that dialog with your team and making sure you have people in the right roles, that they're not feeling like they're doing activities, that they're actually not super excited about it. My mantra is kind of and I don't know what the right percentage is, but what I tell my team is, like, I want you doing like, 80% of what you love every single day, and if you're not on that spectrum, that you know, that level, that percentage, then you're probably not going to be happy in the long run. And so I think that's really key, is aligning, aligning that skill set and interest to the team member. So that's that's first and foremost. And I think, you know, I've recognized that, and that's why hiring this project manager who has that interest in that background, and I think, to be honest, like as a team, we're still dialing in those systems and those forums to where we can have those kind of structured conversations. You know, we're looking at each project, looking at the budget. We're laser focused on the schedule, like, that's something that we do every week with every site manager. And I would so there isn't a lot of discussion of budgets with the site managers at the current time. And I would like them to have awareness, because I think they're generally aware of what's being spent, but they're not, you know, they're not tracking. This is 2% over. That's 5% under. They don't have that level of knowledge. But I think at the end of the day, to your earlier point, like it does, it is, it's scope, schedule, budget, so everything matters. And I think they're having at least a cursory knowledge of where we're at from a financial perspective at the site level. I think, you know, we'll change how they approach the build in a good way, in a healthy way, but we haven't, kind of exposed that side to the site manager, not because it's not something that we are uncomfortable exposing. It's just like they've got so much to focus on. But I think if we can dial in easy ways to summarize that and with different reporting, I think that would be valuable for sure, for sure. And I think that, I think what you're bringing up is like, a really valuable perspective for the listeners to consider, right? It's like, I completely agree with, like, I want my team to be doing 80% of the stuff that they love doing, right? You're always going to have things that you have to do that you don't like to do. Yeah, right, but it's recognizing what the talent is and what they're exceptional at. And then, to your point, like, how long have you been in business? Matt is five five years is bow. And Bill did some other things before that. But yeah, five years, yeah. Okay, so you've been, you've been building the most beautiful custom homes. In bold, we've been super fortunate to have so many ground up projects. And, yeah, it's the team, the clients and the architects, has been really impressive that we've been able to work with. So, yeah, it's been great, yeah, for sure. So okay, but you're like, you're five years in, and like, you're just hiring, like, your first, like, formal project manager, correct, right? And it's, and it's like, it's, I think it's recognizing, like, what do we have on the team? What are we missing from the team, and what is the person that we're going to be introducing, what are they going to be adding to the team, for sure? And I think to tie this back into the change management side, is like, that could be a lot of where this, like change management friction, is coming from, is like, we're trying to change things that people just don't care about, right? And there's only so much that you can do to communicate why something's important to someone that just doesn't care about it exactly because, like, of course, you could explain it. Of course you could tie it back. But if that's not a part of their responsibility or their ownership or a level that they're wanting to explore, it ain't gonna happen totally, absolutely. So, yeah, no, I think that's important. Okay, so in terms of change management, I mean, I think we pretty much whipped change management dude. Talk to me a little bit about what you're most excited for at ball and build with this new project manager coming on. Yeah, I think I'm really just excited about having someone else, like, with the sim, like, I love that aspect of the company, like the financials, the schedule. Like, I love that. And at the end of the day, it's kind of removing barriers for the site managers to then just allow them to do their job. And so what I recognize is that. I, you know, kind of just having two of us acting in that capacity, and nobody dedicated to it, is that it, you know, some of those barriers that we're trying to remove, like, maybe I had to put a little bit of that extra workload on the site managers, which then, you know, maybe they didn't love that in terms of their 80% target, and that's overwhelming to then manage a full site. And let's you know, can you help me get a few purchase orders out, for example? So I'm really excited about that having a dedicated person to just removing those barriers. And that's how we framed it to the team too. You know, because that even hiring a new person at like, a new level can be intimidating, maybe for a team. And I really framed it as, like, look, this is about this new person is is trying to remove things from your plate that are more administrative, like the change orders of purchase orders, updating the schedule, managing the to do list and and honestly, I think there was Everyone was super excited, because they're like, Yeah, that sounds Great. And so it's having, you know, another dedicated head or person to help execute on those things has been really a game changer already. It's been two months, yeah. So, yeah, I'm super excited about that. Wait, okay, so they're already on the team. They're already on the team. Yeah, they've been about two months in. They previously were a pm for like, kind of civil construction, like earthwork type projects, so there's some learning on the building side. But yeah, they're, they've hit the ground running, and it's been fantastic. Definitely gonna ask. So it sounds like they came from the commercial world, the civil world. I hear that often, yeah, like, like, you get a lot of these, like, commercial guys that come in and they're like, working at larger organizations, and it's just like, process, process, process rigidity, like, this is how we do things. And they're like, I mean, there's so much of it in the commercial world, and it's just kind of like, boring to a lot of people, but they just get so much exposure to it. Is that, like, Was that intentional when you were like, Yeah, the last two hires have been from the commercial world. And the reality is, like, the the complexity and level of precision on our builds, like, we're, we're doing a lot of things that, like, would maybe, quote, unquote, normally be done in a in a commercial setting, like, you know, really detailed submittals, super detailed scopes of work, you know, and it's all about just in we we've definitely, we recognize that that can feel a little overwhelming to like our trade partners, and the way we frame it to them is like, Look, our job is to help you guys be successful. And again, what's best for the project that make sure that project well? And it is more effort on our part, but we feel that small investment is so key to getting better estimates from subcontractors and being able to make sure that it's really clear what they're delivering. And so that's, you know, that's kind of par for the course in the commercial world. And I mean, there's builders and that I know that maybe don't even have contracts, and, you know, it's just kind of some that basic thing. So we're trying to just add a level of rigidity that's helpful, and then maybe remove some of the rigidity that's like, maybe just for legal reasons, and trying to, again, just focus it on what's what's going to help this project be delivered in a better way? For sure, what are you anticipating? Some of that, like, rigidity that is more like for like, what are you anticipating? Yeah, like, you know, just really detailed change orders, detailed purchase orders. Like, we, you know, we have multi page scopes of work for our trade partners, like, all the expectations we have for the types of materials that we're expecting, you know, because there's a lot of ambiguity, and sometimes leeway is okay. But like, we've kind of dialed in what we like and what we expect, and so we feel like, let's just be super clear about that. And, you know, trying, like, a good example is like, you know, ideally that purchase orders approved before, you know, anyone starting a day of work. But like, you know, we might be a little flexible in that, like, maybe you're approving the day you're coming. That's an example of like on the commercial world is like you don't sign something you know, don't even show up. So we're trying to be pragmatic about it, because the end of the day, for too strict that that could negatively harm the project. So we recognize that it's not a 50 story building that we're building, but at the same time, having some structure in place, we 100% believe, benefits everyone on the job. Totally, totally. I think this is like an interesting point with the like, the rigidity and the process, and you're talking about like subcontractors and vendors and some of this rigidity negatively impacting the project, like, when I think about why commercial or civil or larger contractors are able to get away with that rigidity is because they have the leverage, they have the clout, they have the size of the project. That is enough of an incentive for a subcontractor, vendor market to oblige by, yep. Do you think that's where it lives and dies, or do you think that there's more to it? I'm essentially trying to figure out, why is there that level of flex? Ability, and they're in the residential market, yeah, as opposed to the commercial. I think, I think part of it is that, at least historically, it's been so relationship driven. And, you know, yeah, residential, yeah. I mean commercial too, certainly, but you know, at least in terms of, like, maybe, who gets the job. But I think, you know, the residential setting, it's, it's, you know, we're in this small space with like, people we see on every single job site, and so I think there's this, like, collegiality to it, and level of trust that then maybe, you know, like, with a friend or a family, like, maybe you wouldn't if you're building their house, you're like, Oh, you're, you're a friend or family. I we don't need a contract by the end of the day, like we feel that that strengthens our relationship to be really clear about what we expect. And I mean, it's in its basic stuff, like cleanliness and, you know, storing materials and like, Let's just all be clear on what we expect of each other, and then we can just focus on the work. And so that's, I think it's, it's just, it's slowly changing what is, what I'm seeing, you know, on the residential side of like, maybe seeing some value, but at the end of the day, it also it's more expensive for us to be able to have that staffing to support that. But you know, we I firmly believe that having that maybe slightly more investment on the staff side. Can save headache and costs later with, like, fixing things that weren't put in right or, you know, whatever it might be that, like, wasn't totally dialed in, or the communication didn't happen up front, and you have to kind of, you know, tweak it later, whether that's fixing it or redoing it. And, you know, those things are really frustrating. We hear that a lot from trade partners, like, I want to be able to just do this. Able to just do this once and do it right, and super annoying for them to have to, you know, redo it because the scope change, or they didn't know, like, this elevation didn't get updated on the plans, all that kind of stuff. So I think it's a helpful, helpful level of structure that up levels everyone, in my opinion, for sure. I mean, I hear like clarity being the big driver there. It's like, and like a part of clarity is knowing what you expect, yes, and then having the confidence to articulate it. Yeah, right. And I think clarity and knowing what you want can get maybe devalued, or like, it just doesn't happen as often. Yeah, when you've got like this, we never build the same project twice, or like, it's so custom, right? Yeah, it's like, but I for sure, but I think what you're talking about, which, excuse me, is what you're talking about is like, kind of applying more of these, like commercial side, like you've got these huge organizations that are, you know, building huge roads or big commercial buildings or, you know, whatever it is. It's like they've got so many people in place, and it's absolutely imperative that they have to be clear and rigid on it you start to introduce that, it's like, this is what we expect and what the job site looks like in its cleanliness. Yeah. This is what we expect in terms of schedules being up to date. This is how we operate when it comes to setting expectations and clients with or in contracts with clients, right? Yeah, I think that clarity piece is what I see the best builders really leaning into. Yeah, I love that. The clarity word is key, because at the end of the day, it's not like I use rigidity earlier, but you're right. It's really about clarity and setting expectations. And we, you know, as a team like we believe in it so much. I don't know if you saw on our website recently, but we recently launched what we're calling an architects and engineers high performance or passive house design guide. And so what we recognize is that especially architects and engineers that haven't built a high or haven't designed a high performance home, you know, they were struggling with like, how do you do window details? How do you transition the air barrier here? And so we've learned all these frustrations of having designs that don't lend themselves to easy execution in the field. And so we were like, let's just create some threed drawings for our architects and engineers partners, you know, put them in a guide, explain what we want and how we want it, because at the end of the day, a verbal description of some of the things is not going to cut it, especially for an architect or an engineer. That's a visual, visual person. And so yeah, we, you know, we've taken it to that level of investing in a, you know, PDF that we have on our websites, you know, free to download for anyone. We share it with all the architects that we work with, and it's just it sets that clarity from the beginning, and then what benefits us? So, yeah, we invested the time and energy to build that document, but now we're going to spend way less time and energy to, you know, Red Red Line plans that we're getting once we're moving from schematic design to construction drawings. And so that's, I love clarity, and I think I'll start using that, that with the team. Yeah, you're more than welcome to i. Think, I think that's a universal word. We can all, we can all share and use it, not trademarked. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Um, so, I think, and just to the point of, like, even for the listeners out there, right, it's like, you get all these guys that are, you know, and gals building these construction businesses. And, you know, they were someone in the trades, or they were in a different industry before, and they go into building homes and like, they have this, like, an entrepreneurship has just been like, blown up in the last, call it 10 years. But what would, what would your like word of advice be for somebody who is like being like, self reflective in this moment, and they might have this realization that they aren't the most clear, or they aren't the best at setting expectations, and they might own a business, or they want to start a business. What would your advice be for that to really get this dialed? Yeah, I think just taking learnings from other people in your space, you know, other people in your region, like, what are they doing well to clearly communicate one thing, we have a lot in this region. We're really fortunate, of they have a lot of builders that they have hard hat tours to kind of just generally open to the public, you know, go check out the job sites, you know, see it under construction, you know. I so I go to those like, I can learn from other builders and what they're doing. And so I think it's asking, you know, and even for me, like, I know, it was one of the early shows you had with that builder in South Carolina. It's like he said, Hey, you know, reach out to me. And I did, you know, you connected me with Adam Copenhaver, yeah, totally love Adam Copenhaver, great. So just not being shy, to engage with others. And the reality is, there's things that, you know, we've all learned that we can share. I think that's first and foremost. And you know, for me, like we like sharing and up leveling others, even with, you know, in our own region, like we debt like a no joke. You know, we had dinner with a bunch of people that you know, in theory, are my competitors. But at the end of the day, I don't see him as a competitor. You know, we're all trying to just build really good buildings, and there's tons of tons of building happening and going around in our region. So I think that's like, first and foremost, like, don't, don't feel like you can't call the person you know across town and be like, Hey, how are you tackling this? I'm sure they're willing to help you. So that's one thing, and I think it's, yeah, just the especially if you're starting a new company, just starting with that framework of openness and collaboration, you know, because, like, I know a lot, but at the end of the day, our team together knows way more. And so, like, I don't pretend in any way that I know the answer to every problem that we confront on a build, and we definitely like crowdsource that as a team and just, I think it's just setting that foundation for for that that culture is really key, because it's hard to it's hard to change it later, or harder to change it later. But I think, you know, no point is it too late. You just got to be intentional about it, I think. And that's where I was going. I mean, do you think that you like the the outcome of your organization, very collaborative, very open, very willingness to share. You essentially create an environment where no idea is a bad idea, right? Totally. You think that's just who you are. Did you ever struggle with that? Did you have to be intentional and like you like you see friction building in your business, and you're like, damn, I got to change something. Or is that just how you operate? I think it's definitely my ethos, for sure. But I think even if it's not your like, natural state, I think you know, you can build that muscle. And maybe you're not going to, like, you're going to have to have a sticky note on your, you know, laptop to be like, hey, don't forget to do this. You know that. I think there's ways to train the brain. Yeah. And I, yeah, I, and I truly believe that that perspective, at least on the types of bills we're doing, is so helpful. And it a good example would be like, you know, we'll have a trade partner that's on the job that will have no problem coming up to either me or site manager to be like, Hey, can we do it this way? And at the end of the day, that is helping that project to be more successful. So I think even if it's even if you're a little reticent to being in that space of being collaborative and open minded, I do think being, you know, pushing yourself to go into that zone is ultimately going to make a better project. In my opinion, totally, totally, and I think that's like to where you know, if you can get to that level, change management isn't a challenge, for sure. It's like, I think, because I think a lot of this, like change management, friction comes from people not being bought in, right? Yeah, it's like, it's like, we're throwing all this new stuff out there, and they don't know why, right? But if you're a part of the conversation, if you're bringing it up, if there is that collaborative nature to the business, and you're like, getting the input from from people that care about the topics that they're providing input on. And it's just not even really a change management conversation. It's just how you operate as a business. It's like, we know things are going to be changing. We know that we're going to be getting more material. We know that we're going to be analytical about what's going on the product, all with the vision of building the best home we possibly can. Yeah, I think that's spot on. And I think an anecdote that I've observed in numerous people on our jobs over the years is, you know, get we definitely explain to especially new trade partners that are coming on our job, sites like, why do we have an interior air barrier? Why is there so much insulation? And truly, because, if you don't tell them why, they're not going to be invested in keeping that air barrier intact, or, you know, taping it, letting you know that they punctured it accidentally. And so we definitely focus on the why. And I think that's a key thing with any type of change management, whether it's on the business side with your systems, or changing how you're approaching the build. And so the we do that, and what I love is we always tell you know, all, especially that, mainly the MEP trade partners, like, look, you're gonna penetrate the air barrier. Just let the site manager know. We'll, we'll fix it for you. And we've gotten to the point where a lot of them, they grab the roll of tape, you know, they get the little spatula that kind of adheres it into the membrane, and they're owning keeping that air barrier intact. It's not their job whatsoever. But we've gotten to the point where, like, they understand the why, and therefore they're investing in being able to help you, you know, deliver on that why, totally, totally. You're a special person, Matt, I appreciate I appreciate you jumping on, I appreciate you jumping on the podcast. Your wealth of knowledge. I'm just laughing. I'm like, we were so fortunate to have people that care about the little spatula. Oh, I love, yeah, yeah. With the, with the, you know, what did you What is it the air barrier? Yeah, it's a lot of these. You know, high quality tapes are pressure sensitive. So like, you know, zip tape is the same, and all the stuff from proclima and siga, they're all pressure sensitive. So yeah, pretty much everyone on the team has one of those in their back pocket. And it's a good tool for other things, which, you know, because I'm if I see it, if I see a hole in the air barrier, I'm gonna go grab that tape and do it right then, even if I'm just run for the job. I love it. I love it. I appreciate you. I look forward to the next time that we talk. This has been a great episode. Thanks so much. Reese, awesome. We'll see you soon. Take care.