Price Per Square Foot is Lying to You with Mark Willie

Reece sits down with Mark Willie to break down why price per square foot can wreck budgets on custom homes, and what builders should lead with instead. They get into expectation setting, where costs are really climbing (hint: the envelope), and how finishes can quietly 4x a plan in one showroom visit. You will walk away with a clearer way to talk budgets, scope, and durability without getting trapped in a single number.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-build-small-casitas-wille
https://www.instagram.com/wille.build

Show Notes:
00:00 Notice what’s right
01:12 Meet Mark Willie
03:44 Lumber acronyms decoded
06:48 How they met
09:55 Consulting role
11:43 Saying no
16:51 Price per foot
29:01 Costs shifting
34:52 Finish budget blowup
43:54 Where to spend
53:30 Where to find Mark

Find Our Hosts:
Reece Barnes
Matt Calvano

Podcast  Produced By:
Motif Media

Transcript

0:00

Man, we're building darn good, durable houses, and I don't think people are acknowledged for that enough take the time to honor the person that made that backsplash and set that countertop and made that door when you go into the bedroom, go to the outside wall and the switch right on your left, and those stairs are all at this incredible same height with that rise and run, it's easy to point out what's wrong. You want to notice what's right. Stop and acknowledge it, brother. Welcome to builders budgets and beers. I'm Rhys Barnes and I started this podcast to have real conversations about money in the building industry, the wins, the mistakes and everything in between. I believe builders deserve to feel confident about their finances, and that starts by hearing from others who've been through it too. This industry can be slow to change, but the right stories and the right tools can make profitability feel possible. Let's get into it. Do all right, Mike's your hot mark. We're live. What's that? L, I V E, L, i v e, that's right, baby. Um, cool. Well, I appreciate you carving out some time to jump on builders budgets and beers. As you may know, in the beginning of these podcasts, we just start with giving the audience little idea of who is on the podcast. So Mark, go ahead and give yourself an introduction, kind of your background, what you focus on, what you're involved with, just some of the basics. Great. Sweet to be here, sitting here. Wish we were next to each other like we normally are. Out of these events. My name is Mark Willey. Might know me from the team at the build show sure and background, I was lucky. I was given a hammer when I was five years old, my dad ran lumber yards. My uncles built homes, and the train station was blocked for the house. That's right, train station, and I've always been on construction sites. I've always worked in shops making furniture and cabinetry and custom wares. It's part of my upbringing. Back in the day, no one would know this, but large manufacturers, in order to get buyers from lumber yards to come, you had to bring the wife and kids, and so I got to be on the floor of saw mills. Very cool. Trees were ripping down the line, and people were smoking on the line. It was the Wild West, and I got to go to more Mills as a kid than I can ever get into as an adult. Obviously, this thing called safety was invented, of course. But pre safety, young Mark Willie was touching logs rolling down the line. I'm sure, I'm sure. So where did the lumber come from? Oh, I'd say it, yeah. It mostly, mostly British Columbia was the primary spot where it was coming into there were some different mills to the east, but the way our train routes came in Chicago, most of it was there. And we did have Doug fir and hemlock fur, as well as all the SPFs, okay. SPFs education is generic acronym for spruce, pine, fir, so when you get a two by four, two by six, all your framing material that is set to the guidelines of SPF, meaning spruce, pine, fir. So that nominal inch and a half by three and a half inch two by four to today's standard, those are the species. I love it. I love it. And it's like, you know you got, you got your SPF, you've got your lvl you know you're, which, I don't even know that it's, I know it's a term lvl. So here's, I know lvl came wrong later back then this is gonna blow your mind. All those Ridge beans and supports right were Doug fir and hemlock fur. So you would have even three inch by 14 inch. Those were thick pieces. They would go up to 44 feet long, right and then, and that's. Testament to the forest, right? And like how the logging practices, because they could get that long or that tall, it's yes, it's the age of those trees and the forestry process that we had, along with the shipping route to be able to deliver those by rail or by truck, the hard part is loading it locally and delivering it. That's why the glue lamps were invented. So you have that engineered piece that was true reform, and the lumber yards could cut it to the length that was needed for that builder, and then engineered wood because of maximizing his values came along with the LSL and the lvl, yeah, okay, okay, cool veneer lumber, basically plywood in the form of structural wood. Okay, see, you know, that's, that's why, you know, love spending time with you mark, because, you know, I just, I learned so much, and, you know, I, you know, I grew up in the industry. I'm familiar with the TLAs, right, the three letter acronyms, yeah? But, you know, I always need a little, you know, a little reminder, you know, bring it back to center. You know, not everything's about tech, not everything is about money. You know, sometimes about getting out there and knowing what you're building, right? Yeah, designed to help people, confuses people with false language, right? Like, if we call each other by our initials, we'd be sitting there like, what? What is that? Is that? MW, over there, like, Stop, we're not medical profession, right, right? Let's just, let's just keep the directness that the industry is so famously known for, right? Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, so for the listeners, okay, so I think it's interesting just for the listeners to know how we got the podcast lined up. So we were in Dallas at the build show live. It is a matt Reisinger build production event, and it was a fantastic adapted we'd actually we were an underwriter sponsor. So what that means is, like before all of the the events started. There was a day, an exclusive event for builders to come in. Mark and I, we've known each other through the years, gotten to know each other through the years, just, you know, brief run ins. We sat down next to each other and we were listening to, I think it was Brent Hall's session. It was the history of architecture, essentially. And so from there, we actually were striking up, and the conversation kind of kicked off with a gentleman named Levitt, who's the guy's first what's his first name, Brad. Wait, is it actually Brad Levitt? Yeah, okay, so the like the production homebuilder guy, yeah, okay. And that's actually hilarious, because Brad Leavitt, of a finer touch down in Phoenix, is doing almost like the opposite of what this guy did. Oh, wait, I'm sorry, that's who I thought we were talking about. Was no, okay, we can dig this up. This is fine. Okay, so Brad Leavitt, obviously, is a custom home builder in the Scottsdale area. But in regards to the Brent Hall. Oh, conversation. Who there was? It was like, essentially, like the father of production home building. Yeah, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna plead Mark forgot with over sensitivity. You're good. I'm gonna look him up, production home builder, essentially, what the conversation was William Levitt. He was the great uncle to Brad Levitt, correct, it's in the family. I think it's actually spelled differently, but he was, he was often nicknamed the Henry Ford of housing. That's right, he essentially, like, figured out, like the production build model, and a lot of the conversation was around like the like the price per square foot concept, which obviously resonates quite well with production building. Right? Friendly reminder, thank you for that. And if rentals out there listening, he is probably unhappy with me. I don't have the depth you have, brother. No, I'm literally going to text him this episode. Once it comes I'm going to be like, Hey, you you had, you had a guest, you had a guest appearance on the pod. But no, and so, okay, so we can, I mean, we can talk, I think generally, like, just with your background being a builder, we can talk about, you know, kind of your opinions of price per square foot, how you see that running in but we don't have to make this an entire conversation around it, because obviously we're not experts about it, yeah, but generally, Mark, so what are you building? Because you're a contractor, yeah, I'm blessed right now not to do day to day work. And I'm frustrated right now not to date, do day to day work. So I'm frustrated. My optimism always is there, and the burden of not working on a job site is also there. So the company that I have no longer exists because of the sheer amount of time I put in with build productions traveling right it would be a fiasco if I tried to run a building company right now. So I get to consult on projects. And consult is such a funny word. It can mean whatever you make it mean, because it's all bending of philosophies anyway, but for the most part, I walk people through the process that they don't have the muscles for. So if your strength is design terrific because don't care about design. To me, design is lipstick. So I will embrace with them the philosophies of the envelope and a proper planning, no rework and long term, resilient, durable features, and kind of make sure architect, contractor and suppliers are all on that same page. And if I need to, I'll be very influential in saying no, because some people don't say no, right? So I'll position myself for their success. What are some of the no's that you hear people not being comfortable? Like just some examples, yeah. Well, we found this contract to figure on the client side, and they wanted us to do this. So, so that's gonna work. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna be okay with that, right? Or contractor being stuck with constant changes because the under informed customer didn't listen to the procedures given. And so you step in and say, No, you guys are agreeing to two different things, and you're not agreeing to what is best for the house, best for the client, best for the skill set of the people involved. Like sometimes people are saying yes, because that awkward conversation of interjection is not there, or the depth as to why the awkwardness is there, you know, well, our architect drew this, but we didn't know really what he meant. Okay, sure. Did you have an eight hour conversation with an architect that drew your plan for eight months. Come on, that's not there give people the time and the runway to learn at their pace, sure. Well, and I think that kind of like ties in, not that we need to make like a whole episode about price per square foot. But, I mean, I think that probably, like, plays into this right to a degree, because you probably got, like, a consumer that's like, uneducated and is has, like, a lot longer learning curve. They've probably heard of a price per square foot concept right before they start talking to a builder, and then the builder is in a rock and a hard spot of, like, how dressed up do I make this product, the lipstick, as you call it, right in the design, versus the price per square foot for a very well built home that you might have to cut some of the lipstick out of to get to where the client needs. What's your I mean, how? How does that play? Go ahead, it plays out because both parties have preconceived ideas, but not the sussed out version. They're both hungry for a meal, if we take construction in the form of a meal, and these folks over here are expecting a buffet at an Italian restaurant, and these folks over here have have set up this incredible Asian cuisine to last throughout the day. So they're both ready to get fulfilled, but their expectations are not aligned. They they've shopped at different stores, they organize different sous chefs, and they've delivered a completely different table setting, but totally the mess we're left with might still be tasty. So if we back that up and say, Yes, this is your budget, but yes, your quality is here, but yes, your timeline is here. Okay, can we back up? Can we please back up and at least. Nice degree on the entree, the type of cuisine and the recipes and the way to prepare it, and let's not start building it. Let's back up that whole procedure on wants and needs and expectations so we're all fulfilled like they get so caught up and, well, that wasn't in the contract. Okay, you're right, and let's be litigic If we have to get there. But let's go along and get along, because this romance is just beginning. We got a whole bunch of dancing to do, right? And let let's enjoy we're creating something that never existed. Try creating something that never existed in the element of tension. Explain that I see where you're going, but yeah, you can't. It's gonna be, it's gonna be garbage. Like, yes, you could be intense. Good on you for being intense and having that muscle, but if you're tense and there's always that posturing of, I told you, we could only have site visits after 430 and it's 345 okay, bendable, a little bit of bendable, right? Yeah, yes, you're not talking directly to the carpenter when he's setting a beam, Right? But by golly, if you don't want a bathroom next to your kitchen, then don't let someone draw it there, right, right? Try to move it after it's there. It sounds funny and obvious. It sounds annoying and frustrating too, right? That's that whole balance thing. But yeah, Good golly, is the person talking being heard? And are they articulating everything that needs to be listened to? Totally, totally well. And I think that's where like, it goes into the dance and like, again, not to beat this like, price per square foot thing and do it, but I kind of like view this as like a like expectation setting is huge. B, it's like this, the price per square foot, or like this. Like rigidity to a process is almost like, you know, someone who's trying to find a partner going in and saying, I'm going to go find a partner, right? And it's like, usually those people are the ones that struggle the most to find the individual, right? It's kind of like I'm trying to build a house for $500 a square foot, right? But then they're trying to find someone who's a $750 a square foot person for the $500 square foot number. And if you're not willing to massage and bend and be flexible and communicate, right, and have a clear understanding, then you can be in a really tough situation. So, like, generally, like, I just, I want to hear it like, what is your overall stance on builders that are following or are, like, put a lot of emphasis in this price per square foot conversation. What's your general take? To me, to me, price is more of a factor in scale. Development and multifamily. If you're building a one off home, sure there's a real number there. There's a real budget there. But why are we starting that conversation there? Because if, if I have$1.50 and I'm expecting a gourmet burger, I better go to the butcher and get that ground beef myself and prepare it. What if I'm expecting to meet you at 530 in Las Vegas and burgers or meal and someone serving that up, that $1.50 budget is not going to go very far, if I'm lucky, I'll get a pickle, and wish I had right this is not between vegetarian and carnivores, but pickles and burgers are different. So the price per square foot scares me in that we don't always know where it's being aligned. If, if, if quality is what you're looking for, you might only be able to handle a bit of that quality. So I really want an energy efficient home. I really want 12 inch wide, 10 foot long, clear oak flooring. Okay, great. Based on your budget, we are going forward with the geothermal, and you are going to have wonderful oriented strand board OSB sub floors. Three years from now, we're going to come back and we're going to put in that oak. Because your price per square foot does not allow for the lipstick yet. I love it. The geothermal now, and that's going to be there and be very comfortable. You know, we can save forever, but they're probably moving in six to eight years. Totally, totally Wink, wink. There we go. Yeah, it's not that lifetime asset that it probably was when William Levitt was building, but I think that again, it goes back to the conversation of, like, prioritizing, right? And it does it just because somebody says they want, you know, whatever the clear oak floors with, with the geothermal Net Zero, great memory, whatever it is, right? It's like you can have those conversations with your client and bend them into it. And I it makes sense to me, and frankly, like, I think I carry a similar logic to you, in the sense that, like this, price per square foot conversation has blended its way into the custom building market when really it, it should be kept in more of this production developer style build where they can control their costs, where they know what the product is that they're building. It is much more of a a designed concept than it is just like a custom home that requires a lot of flexibility, a lot of conversation, a lot of communication, setting expectations. And then if you get to the end of that process, and you're looking and you're like, Okay, we can take the square footage of the home with the budget that we have in place, and we can find a price per square foot, if that's important to you. Great. But when that conversation happens, I think is the important part, not leading with this price per square foot, but ending with a price per square foot, yep. So go ahead and all that is such a matter of space. Total space had a weird list there. So what you have in the Bay Area and what you have in Mobile, Alabama, and all these different spots, it's always going to be different. And so if you break it down, the confusing part is it's not a true tally. So you're building if it's a custom house to the needs of the person, and having these large, great rooms are very achievable, and it it, it makes that price per square foot go lower because that area in general, doesn't have plumbing right. It doesn't have added walls or added trim work. It has perimeter right, which is backup perimeter to all the other existing spaces. It has the lighting, which could be here in budgets. It has the mechanical which is volume space, so there's not a huge margin of influence there, but there's there's less intricacies versus each bedroom has a couple more doors for clots and a couple more framing for those closets and the built ins and the windows here, and then that molding run in and out and and has rich labor involved in, you know, it has its own lighting plan, and then it probably has an accompanying either half bath or full bath. So some of those shared mechanical, electrical plumbing, the MEP things help the volume of the space. It's why basements exists in areas where you can do basements, and how taxes are aligned and not aligned there, because that space is assumed or acquired into that mile versus that long ranch has extra footings going out, and then the the multi stories have all that more added trust is involved. So your, your factor is so different than a tiny house, right? Or, or those, those little factors of extra kitchens, right? Because your your culture, likes to have all that built in, versus there's so many complexities to that. Price per square foot is, what do I want in each foot of the house? And how is that going to make my quality of life and hopefully my health, which we didn't, get, better, totally well. And I think so that's that's a great explanation, because those that is what amplifies the comment of price per square foot happening at the end of the conversation. In verse the beginning, because there are so many variables, right? That's what that your your thread. There was a testament to there are 1000 decisions that are going to go into getting that answer. And I think that's where, as a consumer, right? The person who's wanting the home built, you need to put some thought into what do you actually want before you go into this conversation. Now, can you have everything down to the pole, handle on the trash drawer in the kitchen, dialed before you enter the conversation? No, right, but having a general theme of what is important to you, what is the non negotiable, is going to help the process. And I think, you know, in the Custom World, that's where that slip can happen, right? You can get in and you can be, you know, six months into a build, and you're starting to get into picking light fixtures and countertops. Maybe that happens before or not, I'm not sure, right? But the point is, is is you can have that wiggle room, but then you're at least looking and you're saying, okay, it might not be at a $500 square foot at the end of this thing. This might bump it up to a 525, 550, though, those, those, those line items, as you say, are so clear in some of our brains, right? And the more that's listed out, the better, because that that's organization, 101, everything is a certain trigger for the contractor. The countertop color might not matter, but if it's stone and it's an, it's a, it's an intertwined wall splash. And if it's and if it's a double waterfall, etc. Now your trusses are accounted for, and your depth of the wall is accounted for, and the fact that there's a movie room on the other side, and there's no way I want to hear the blender going when little Timmy is doing homework at the table right then you need to have a back kitchen. There's those little odds and ends, and I think it all can be decided outside of design build, if that pathway and what is not wanted is defined, and it also is the strength of that contracting company that GC and builder, hey, if they have in house carpenters that love to do finish work, that price per square foot is not as high because that's what they love, delivering like, right? Speaking back to Brad Levitt, one of his fortes are their trim work and their spatial deliveries are such pretty settings that those clients are coming to them because their expectations will be met and the alignment of the really intense team that's over there is already there that's not going to be for every contracting company, no way, no how, especially at the scale, that is not a fit, regardless of an agreed upon price per square foot, exactly, exactly. And that's, again, it just goes back into like, what does the consumer want? And as you are talking to builders mark, actually, this is two questions. Like, first, where do you see price per square foot really skyrocketing in what component of the build? And then second, just with everything that you've seen in your career, where would you spend your price per square foot? Okay, say the first part again, because now I just got totally lost in the second part. You're good. You're good. So where do you see price per square foot really starting to skyrocket? Yes, okay, I'm going to leave finishes out of this conversation, because that is such a dependent part. And I will circle back to it, where it's growing is we have lists of materials and assembly that are code, code, code, necessary now with air barriers, vapor barriers, continuous insulation, wrbs, water resistant or weather resistant barriers, to give you the acronym definition, all these portions were never part of our assemblies, let alone High Performance. Uh, windows and doors, that envelope of the house that is delivering, let's say what it's delivering, resiliency and durability is also taking other line items, like mechanical and bringing it over here so your mechanical loads of your structure. Are are lessening, and that equipment does get replaced moves over into that shell, because now we put the sweater and the hat and the scarf and the in all this, the belts and suspenders and boots and leg warmers, we put that on the shell. So now the house in hot times is not getting as warm, and in cold times is not getting as cold. Fun little scenario, physics, heat moves to cool. So in the summertime, that hot outside air is trying to get into our spaces. And in the cold parts of the year, that heat that we created inside is trying to get out. So that envelope portion, the continuous insulation or outsolation on the buildings and protecting that shell for longer periods of time is where huge costs are going to our walls were two by four walls with no insulation. Then we had this r3 and then we had this r8 and then we had this R 11, and that was before we even had continuous insulation, before we talked about thermal control, like keeping that that coffee warm or that beer cool so that shell is a huge cost factor. Interesting. It's so important and little trick for the builders and the clients of future builders and architects, ask your building municipality, if the footprint of the house is on the floor space because there's a price per square foot, or if it's on the perimeter, that's a different price per square foot, you want them to agree. You want them to agree that it's on the functional interior floor space, because if you're building 1416, 1820, inch walls, you can't walk in those walls. So pay for that price per square foot. Pay for the functional inside of the gypsum. Let's call it not, not the perimeter of your brick or cladding choice. So that's a huge factor, huge Okay, so I think that's that's great because, and I'm glad that you separated finishes from that answer, because that is the assumption, right? Like your finishes, your flooring, your cabinet, packs, your all of that stuff. That's obviously going to inflate that number quite heavily, quite dramatically. But I think highlighting just the simple fact that that craftsmanship builds science, which you're a huge part of influencing in the nation, is like it is accelerating. We've got manufacturers, we've got vendors, we've got all of these people that are building higher quality products, the doors, the windows, the insulation concepts, the MEP, all that stuff is getting more and more expensive with the intention that it is a better long term product, right? And I think that is one of the bigger gaps from the consumer builder ecosystem, is that we're it's almost like the consumer is lagging behind. And you might disagree with me on this. It might be getting better, but the consumer is they're seeing value as what are my countertops? Do I have soft close you know, cabinets in my kitchen, right? Do I have heated floors? Whatever it might be. But they're not looking at the value of the home really being in the quality of the build and the quality of material and product that's going in, it's going to make that a long standing asset, yep, especially when we start looking at 50 year mortgages Go ahead. Oh man, looks like part two is set for four months from now. Let's tear that up later. I got smacked in the face this this was a highlight of one of our conversations. We all remember history differently every time we tell a story that that finishes. The reason it was put on hold is I told you about in Chicago, I did a lot of condo renovations so someone buys it, the first thing they do is rip everything out. I don't care when I need to move in. I'm still in my house that we raised our kids in, or whatever, but we're gonna move into this condo, and we're gonna live there until we die. Happens all the time, and so everything gets tore out. You know, real fun to put all that stuff in elevators. And I can't even imagine, but you go through and generally, these, these buildings are concrete, right? What are the walls? Concrete? What are the ceilings? Concrete, concrete, concrete, concrete. And then they got these little chases to bring in, probably water, probably waste, probably electric, and then there's glass, and there's only so much you can do. You bring your materials in, you bring your people, and you bring your tools in. So she had a budget. The lady was controlling everything. The husband, I was not allowed to talk to. So great. She had a budget. Worked up the whole contract, and I allocated X for kitchen finishes, X for bathroom finishes, X for other bathroom finishes, and then the rest was all the other spatial stuff, flooring and so on. So she suggests to all that, all those numbers she thought were right, everything was fine. Okay. Then I said, before we move forward, we're going to take you to a couple studios and a couple supply centers, and we're gonna learn your tastes and interests, and I'm gonna walk with you, but I'm gonna let you and those folks talk, because I don't want to bring my for my objections. If I don't like something, I'm going to tell you. If I like something, I'm going to tell you, but I'm going to learn you out of the gate. And I've worked with this gal over there for a long time. She shows her the nicest tubs, the nicest vanities, the nicest everythings, the nicest everythings and the Luxus everythings. And I said, I have to pause. I've got this call. I'm gonna come back. You guys. Have your coffee, enjoy your danishes, and I'll come back. I came back and they're total, because this girl was good. She had her at the desk doing the total and selection. She's like, wonder this and you got this toilet, you know, all this stuff was coming in there. We got heated towel bars, the works. Yeah, that total that they came up with was more than my entire renovation total with the great upon line irons. On top of it, she talked her into feature walls and doing all of the ceilings in clear wood. Wow, it, you know, because there's not lighting and concrete ceilings and all that stuff. And I was like, This contract is literally quadrupled over a Danish. And I thanked her. I thought it was great. You know, got the call from the husband the next day. I can't talk to you, sir, the contracts with your wife. I went back to the plumbing and design place and I told her, I said, You are a wizard. I want to I want to hire you. And I used to work for this lady. I want to hurry. She's like, you can't afford me. She was right, and but price per square foot agreed upon, line item price per square foot. And over at Danish mark, Willie, I was wrong. Way, wrong. Allister, mouth drop, yeah, exactly. That's I mean, but that's all too common, right? Like, that's just, I mean, that's what happens, right? You start, you get in, I'm building the house of my dreams. I'm renovating the condo that I'm going to live in for the rest of I deserve it. I want this. And then you're just like, we are so far off. We are so far off. So what happened, like, what happened with the contract? Did you have to taper expectations? Did she go quadruple budget? What happened? No, no, we went, we went quadruple budget, and then we went beyond that again. I brought in a designer, which, in the beginning, I was told, No designers we love. I made custom furniture and did custom restaurants back then, so we they wanted all that kind of stuff. And it just morphed. And it morphed and it morphed and, I mean, I had already done like, three units in a row at this building. And I mean, my staff didn't even want to go there like we were. We didn't want the job to grow just burn at all. But you know, it's what you signed up for. And of course, it was a friend of a former client. So you compelled. Were they great people? They were great people, but my formalities and all that stuff that I put in, we're not good enough. Yeah, we're certainly not good enough. Did we enjoy the process? We we certainly did, but it was so long like the project was nine months. Longer, literally, nine. What was it originally nine months? We originally factored five months for the project. Nuts. Yep, it was something, sure enough, like I got the call, like five months after we were done, that there was problem with the unit above theirs, and, you know, like half that bathroom needed to be ripped out. Like that bathroom was extensive, quartz, I mean, extensive, and there's a leak in the building, and that came in, we had redone all the internal plumbing. I'd got Board approval and all that, you know, got great union plumbers working on all this stuff, so our stuff was tight. But upstairs, something happened, you know, I'm not pointing a finger, but something happened upstairs. And she literally called me. She says, You need to redo our bathroom again, I said. And she's like, Don't worry, it's all being paid for all that. I said, I am not, yeah, we killed it on that job. We're too busy. And she's like, we'll pay you more. I'm like, we will not do the work. We'll pay you more. Mark. We will not do the work. I can't tell you how many times I said no, really hard to say no to people that you enjoy the ownership of delivering their expectations, but you also you have to take in part that That would probably morph again. It wasn't like we were going to replace like with like. Couldn't even get the tub again. There's no way we could have salvaged that tub. Yeah, and all that quartz. I mean, I'm not trying to save a piece of quartz. I don't like to be wasteful, but good god, this bathroom was like 12 by 12 in a condo building. Comes out. I need to make sure all the issues are resolved, so that courts is out, right, right? It is gone. Gone. Yep, yeah, totally no. I mean, and this is like, this is you're not the first builder. But I also think like for the wisdom you share is like recognizing a client or a red flag and then having the self control to say no when someone's literally ready to just write you check after check after check, understanding and having learned from your mistakes. Like this was a five month relationship that turned into a 14 month relationship. And everyone that's right, that's right, that's right. You know, simple addition has served me well and and you're just like, Look No. Like, go find someone else. Like, we're not we're not going to turn quick. Hey, come fix my bathroom. Three month relationship into a nine month relationship, I have pulled my license and insurance and contractor information from the board's list, because I never wanted to go back to that building again. Yeah, we got 12 people looking for parking in vans and pickup trucks on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago every single morning, only to be like looked at by everyone at the elevator. Gets a little old. 100% 100% hearts go out to those building in large, urban, urban, cities. Okay, last piece here, this is the second part of the question, or the second question, rather, you're good. That was a great answer. What does Mark Willie spend his price per square foot on. You're building a house. You're doing a run. Let's do, let's do new construction. Yeah, let's work where. Where is Mark Willie spending his price per square foot? Yeah? Well, if you listen to the first part of the answer, you'll enjoy the second part of the answer, because they're one in the same. At first I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that code is advancing. You could either get on the bus or you could fight the system. Code is advancing. The Department of Energy, in all those Net Zero programs. Pave the path for this, and so I spend my money on the same thing that we're moving forward on, and that is the building envelope. It is okay, so let's state the obvious. If it's not obvious, after today, we're calling this the obvious. Water destroys all buildings. Water destroys everything. It's incredible and wonderful, all in the same sentence. So if we're not protecting all those pretty obvious. Projects and pretty people inside. Why are we doing it? So in order to have durability and resilience, we're dealing with water. We're also dealing with air infiltration, with which when we cover air, we're also talking about the things that people don't, don't want in their house, and that's critters, correct? Whether it's a spider or an ant or a rat or a mouse or whatever size holes you have in your dwelling, right? Making a mirror tight also stops that stuff as well as stinky stuff from coming in and out. And for everyone that wants to hold me on a portion of that out of context, I'll say yes, when the building is airtight, we're also bringing in filtered air from the outside through our ERVs and HRVs. We're not trying to suffocate people in a house. Get over it, not having an argument, you're nuts. So we're dealing with water, we're dealing with air, we're dealing with thermal because we want that sweater on the building. And we're dealing with vapor, but mostly because the wrbs are so good and proper insulation is being done that house is vapor open, so that we're not trapping things in there. Some of the code doesn't exactly say that, but if you're going to a performance method versus a prescriptive method, I'm always going to say you want a durable, resilient building where you factor in water, you factor in air, and you factor in thermal that's what I'm going for. And I know you're all on that train. You all just nodded your head. That's right. All the listeners, everyone, they haven't even heard this yet, and they're out there walking around like this, water, resilient, durable. Everyone's doing it, yeah, so, you know, boom, I love it. Mic drop. I might drop. Okay, that's great. That's great. And what is so, what is durable on a timeline perspective, is this 100 year house? Is it a 50 Year house? What is, what is the outcome of where Mark spends his money on the is that a 50 year mortgage? Is that a 25 year mortgage? And that's to try. I think this is kind of a part of it. And like on past podcasts, I brought this up of like, we've got the 30 year mortgage, we've got DR Horton and Lennar slapping up these production homes that six months into the consumer living in them. They've got massive capital expenditures. They need to take care of water leaks, cracked concrete foundations, all this stuff. And you're going, is this asset even worth the mortgage that it's tied to? Right? So that's where I'm kind of asking, frankly, is like, if you do invest in water, air, thermal, tighter envelopes, all of this stuff that make the home structurally sound, what is the outcome? Right? Yeah, let's, let's back up and look at some of those points you said there first. I don't think these massive track builders and and look, I, I know the building science guys at these companies, the sustainability folks, they're real human beings with incredible skill sets. I've, I've blower door tested a lot of their buildings with and without permission, right? Try and catch me, but I will also furnish the results. Here's the thing. Even years ago, most of those buildings were were delivering two air exchanges per hour, and code was five because of the materials today, they are building fast, but actually they're building a lot better than we think they are. This is a generalization, right? Be general, but they're building better than even they know they are. The part of the system that's missing is that, that pre insulation blower door should be a spectacle for the entire team, and then that the post MEP and the final blower door and duck testing, it should be a big thing. Do I care about lead and Passive House placards? Not really? Do I care about why people are taking those steps to point to your durability question? Yes, and that's a highly detail related, highly selection and craftsmanship related thing that is being delivered upon both for the people are site building. Penalized building, prefab building and modular building, they're all delivering it. We have very good houses. We just don't have enough workers and we don't have enough housing stock. So if we're focusing on the durability factor that you have now the need for so many more dwellings is diminished because the ones we have are lasting longer. Let's also try and make them symmetrical and pretty, because you could, you can make a Hugo. I'm not going to be funny, but I'm gonna tell you to Google the Hugo car, right? It was designed to be fast and cheap, and there's some still on the road right there. That's because you can't drive them down the road, but they're literally on the road. But it achieved the fast, it achieved the cheap, the the sexy, muscle cars that were out there that have still never been delivered to this day the way they were in the 50s, 60s and part of the 70s, allowed people to care for them and nurture them because they were draw, job, jaw dropping. Draw dropping, jaw jaw dropping. Yeah. And so, like, we need them to be durable, but we also need them to look good, because if they don't look good, they're not going to be cared for. So the grading and the landscape and the concrete footing and foundation, again, we're only talking about new construction. All that is a factor, because we're not putting the house in a valley. We're putting the house on the hill. We're pouring that water away. All those durability factors are, are good, that, that building shell, that that that turtle shell and handle water, it can handle that being knocked around. You know, is there? Hail storms are there? You know, Mother Nature coming at us. Yeah, Mother Nature doesn't care about us. She's not her job. Mother Nature is caring for the things that actually take care of us that we can't notice, right, right? Dense human brains, but that durable structure. She's not doing a whole lot with that dense structure. It's good. We're not building out a solid stone, right? We're not there. We don't have that man. We're building darn good, durable houses, and I don't think people are acknowledged for that enough. Think if you acknowledge that, you know the waiter and waitress delivered that great meal from the chef in and the kitchen, and those recipes that are passed on like take the time to honor the person that made that backsplash and set that countertop and and made that door when you go into the bedroom, go to the outside wall and the switch right on your left, and those stairs are all at this incredible same height with that rise and run like you want to notice what's wrong. It's easy to point out what's wrong. You want to notice what's right. Stop and acknowledge it. Brother. I love it. I love it. That was, that was a perfect ending note. Mark. This was, this was a classic. And you do a lot of content. Where can the listeners find you? I'm on, I'm on the Instagram mostly for collaborations. So I mostly do collaborations on Instagram. Still trying to get my old account back. If there's any wizards out there, I'm I'm a knucklehead. When you change phone numbers, make sure you update that. Because you change phone numbers, it's hard to get back into your account when it does that cycle the factor, yeah, okay, we could figure that out. That shouldn't be too hard. It's harder than it sounds. So Willy Willy build is on IG. There's the longest one ever. Mark build small Casitas Willie is on LinkedIn. I post daily. If I don't post daily, I post two to three times the next day to punish myself, yeah, and to keep myself inspired. And I've got books on Amazon, I love it. I love it. The ABCs of construction. Tech, I love it. Wait, I have never heard of this mark. I'm Yes, I'm gonna look this up right now, ABCs of construction. So the series is called, you can too. The title is called the ABCs of construction. Tech, uh. Um, and I'll Which one can I flip through so you can, when you're at a trade show, you can add stickers, you can get notes from people, and then you could say, let's turn to page a right? It's also a book that you do yourself. Yes, that's Alexander basic. Notes in there. Don't read the notes. I haven't read them yet, but it could say A is for adaptive, exactly, and you and you personalize the book, and then at the end, we have the acknowledgement you can too, right? Like, if you're not acknowledging things, I feel bad for you, because you probably need a hug, and I'll give you a hug. We'll both give you a hug when you see us. In fact, we'll probably hug you so much so you want to get away from us. Yeah, exactly nothing better than getting a hug from a bearded guy. Yeah, that book is designed for children, and if you read what journal of light construction recently wrote about it, they're like, this is too hard for kids. Totally wrong. You can give words and philosophies and materials and methodologies to children. They don't know it's too far from them because we're preparing them for things that we don't even know, that are going to exist, that are going to be solving problems long after you and I are fossilized. 1,000% 1,000% little pressure will go a long way. You know, don't, don't take the don't take the dog out of the fight too early, right? I love it, okay, Mark. It has been an absolute pleasure. I appreciate you hopping on, and I'm looking forward to seeing you. I'm sure I'll see you at what the international builder show. We'll at least see each other. There probably Journal of life, construction JLC, live, and I'll definitely be at JLC, yep. Where else you going right now? Build show live, where we're talking about build show live. This can be in September, San Antonio, Texas. That's right, San Antonio Texas. And yeah, I need to work with Mel on this. But yeah, we're getting our we're getting our event roster lined up, so at the very least, I'll see you at JLC, IBS and build show. Maybe we should do a podcast booth in San Antonio live. I think we should a little live podcast. I've wanted to do it for a while. When I was at builder trend, they did one. I think the challenge is getting the sound figured out. Granted, this was like probably five years ago when they tried it. And mics have come a long way. I mean, I just got a DG, DJI, whatever it's called. Everyone says DJI. You said it right. It's DJI. Ai, yes. So maybe we could, maybe we could, at the very least, we'll do more content. But, um, there's, uh, people you know that know people that have some cool acoustical, uh, products. And there's ways to help drown out that so that this can be heard. We should work on that. We should put our heads together. That would be great. You're awesome. I appreciate you. The feeling is mutual. Mark. You enjoy yourself. Thanks for hopping on.