Strategic Partners That Reduce Risk And Help You Scale With David Werschay

Reece sits down with David Werschay of Werschay Homes to break down how builders can punch above their weight in land development and spec building without blowing up cash flow. They talk strategic partners, exclusive builder agreements, and a creative spec home funding play that got subs and banks aligned. You will walk away with practical ways to reduce risk, build repeatable processes, and keep momentum even when the market gets weird.

https://werschayhomes.com

Show Notes:
00:00 Big land, shared risk
00:19 Show intro
00:54 Meet David
01:57 Werschay Companies overview
03:59 From code to construction
05:40 Starting Werschay Homes
11:08 Mentors and partners
13:46 Exclusive builder deal
20:30 Building community value
24:09 Risk and recession
30:21 The spec home play
36:46 Processes and feedback
43:00 Advice for builders
47:01 Wrap up

Find Our Hosts:
Reece Barnes
Matt Calvano

Podcast  Produced By:
Motif Media

Transcript

0:00

We're a builder, our pockets aren't super deep. To go out and crack a million or two on a piece of property, surrounding yourself with that strategic partner who knows how to put a pro forma together to sell to the banks, you get three or four entities putting some assets into this, and all of a sudden the bite isn't as big. Welcome to builders budgets and beers. I'm Rhys Barnes and I started this podcast to have real conversations about money in the building industry, the wins, the mistakes and everything in between. I believe builders deserve to feel confident about their finances, and that starts by hearing from others who've been through it too. This industry can be slow to change, but the right stories and the right tools can make profitability feel possible. Let's get into it. Alrighty. David, mics are hot. We're rolling All right, good. I appreciate you hopping on BBB. This is exciting. I've been listening to you, and now I get to be on it. I don't have a fancy microphone and headphones like you, but you get what you get, hey, well, your sound quality is, is solid. You know, we've had, we've had people on that. Have they've done episodes from like, outdoor restaurants. We've had people do them from their trucks. We've had people with, like fans in the background with a tick that you hear, and you have none of that. So you're, you're our You're doing great. You're doing great well, you may, as a random employee, come flying in here, like Kramer or something, but you never know. Hey, that's, that's a part of running a small business, right, right? But cool. So I appreciate you jumping on here. As always. Let's just run out of the gate with a little introduction. Tell the listeners a little about yourself, where you're from, what you build, a little about the business, just some of the some of the basics. Yeah, the basics are central Minnesota, St Cloud, Minnesota, as I mentioned earlier, minus 17 two days ago. So insane. Balmy 24 today. Nice crisp, which we love. It the snow is melting. It's great. Werschay homes is our company, and we call it worst day companies because we have a lot of other little things going on, but our, our luxury high end design build is the main flagship business that we have. And Central Minnesota, you know, we're building, you know, 12 to 14 of those a year. And we have, we have some other ancillary companies. We have a realist, small real estate brokerage. We have a sister company called Space properties that just builds a single family rental portfolio. Oh, cool. Okay. We have a remodel division called renovate by wershay homes. And those are just, you know, just crazy remodels that we do usually gutting, you know, gutting houses down or pushing them over, but, you know, just large scale remodels. Okay, so what is that? Five, six entities, at least, yeah. But the worst day homes and renovate are the flagship ones. Those are, that's what, that's where the sausage is made. Yeah, you know, I've always had my real estate license and brokers license, so we market all of our own stuff, and it that's just kind of handy. A lot of our clients have, you know, they have a house to sell or something, we can help them with that transition. Totally. Well, okay, so I actually, I hear that often in the just, I call it, just like the real estate world, which we're going to bundle construction in to, that the construction real estate world is like you hear, you see, a lot of guys, a lot of gals will start in the agent world, the broker world, and then they'll start building. It was that your transition? So you started in real estate? Or how did that work for you? No, yeah, if we want to go back to the way I started is kind of interesting. I I finished college. I went to I'm from St Cloud. I went to school in Michigan. I got my degree in computer programming. But as a summer job, I I worked for a contractor. And I was, I was a gopher. I was a laborer. I did. I was the whatever guy and and so when I was graduating, that that builder said, hey, you know, what are you gonna do when you graduate? And I said, Well, I said, I got a degree in computer programming, and I hate it, but I can get a job, and he doesn't want to come work for me. I said, No. I said that was just to get me through school. Yeah, he was. He says, No, I don't, I don't want you out in the field. Frankly, you weren't that valuable out there. But he said, I just need somebody in the office. I kind of want to grow my business, and, you know, so I need someone marketing. I need someone to, you know, design homes and stuff. So I came back and I. Jumped in with him, and I trained myself in on CAD design. And when I started with him that year, we built 12 homes. It was him, myself and a part time receptionist. And then 11 years later, when I left, we were building over 100 homes a year. And, yeah, we just built a monster, you know, very production based stuff. But yeah, so through that process, I found myself working, you know, working so closely with the clients that we thought it probably made sense that I got my real estate license. That's how I got my real estate license. Got it, yeah, okay. And then through that process, built a house for a really nice couple who had a beautiful daughter, and I met her, and I ended up marrying her. That's awesome, and she had an amazing eye for interior design, and she didn't know it. And so So in 2003 left that business, and we wanted to do something unique and really bring a different product to our market. You know, the market was kind of stuck in its way. And we said, you know, we had more ideas. And we said, Let's start our own business and and just start building custom homes. And we thought, we'll go one or two a year and be happy just the two of us. And since then, it I wasn't happy with one or two. And we've grown the business to 12 to 14. We've got two different developments that we build homes in and we develop the land. And so when we brought our business to the market. One of the unique features that we brought was the fact that if you build with us, you get Molly's services as part of the package, so you don't have to go out and hire your own interior designer. You know, it's right here. She's, you know, she's going to be your tour guide for everything selection that you need in your house. And she's amazing with our clients, and with picking her, she's still doing it today. Yeah, 100% okay, so it sounds like you really owe it all to the construction, real estate world. Yeah. I mean, you, you learn, go ahead. Well, no, you just once you're in this you love it, and that's how it was for us, you know, we just, we just loved it, and it was, it's just so much fun, and it's, no, you get to meet so many people and and, you know, just, I didn't know that I had that entrepreneurial spirit in me. It's kind of funny. The way we started the business is I had left that other company and I thought I wanted to go into a different industry, yeah, and, and I worked there for about two months, and I'm like, this is this is not my bag. So I quit, like, at noon on a Thursday, yeah, I came home. I came home, and Molly's like, what are you doing home? I said, I quit. And and she seriously, she looked at me. She goes, Can we go build homes now? Yeah, she knew, she knew. She knew So, and that's what we both loved. So, yeah, we're still doing it. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, going from a laborer in a shop that's doing 12 units a year build that thing up to 100 plus units a year. You know, kind of a find yourself moment. You know, think you want to explore other things, and now you're like building this great business in in St Cloud. I mean, I feel like you've got a lot of mentorship around this. I mean, I can only imagine that the learning that you gleaned off of the first shop that you worked for was incredible, yeah, you know, it's interesting. Even though it production homes, the thing that remains the same is the House plan. You know, that doesn't change. But when you go to, when you go to a, you know, high end home, luxury home, the process is the same. You know, you still have to start by excavating and and putting your foundation in. Everything just takes a little longer, and there's more details. But, you know, the process of building a home doesn't change a whole lot. There's just more steps involved. It's, yeah, it was a blast. It's a blast. And, you know, we just, we were able to bring something different, a new level of design to the, you know, to this market. Yeah, of course. So were you, do you call, do you consider yourself like a bags on contractor, like, Are you like, Are you like in the field? Guy, are you more of like, the business process? Guy, go ahead. I'm the, I'm the business process guy. No, if I think I still have my tool belt, it's leather. I don't think they wear leather ones anymore. Yeah, no, we joke about it because we have an annual meeting every year, annual trade partner meeting, and we bring it. Everybody in for, you know, three, four hours. And I kind of go through give a presentation, kind of what we did, where we're going to go and stuff and and then we have some fun. And sometimes I'll do multiple choice questions. And, you know, one of them was, if you see Dave on the job site, what are you allowed to ask him? You know, what color is the paint, what's the flooring going in here? What's the roof pitch gonna be, or, how was your weekend? Yeah. And the only thing you can ask me is, how was your weekend, yeah, yeah, totally. So, no, not, not the bags I guy, but I understand every, you know, every aspect of the building process. So that was sure. Cool thing about, you know, working out in the field is I learned every, every aspect of it, for sure, for sure. Okay, so even, like on this again, you you started at this larger company, and then now you and Molly have built a sizable business yourself. Tell me about how, like the people you worked with along the way have impacted you, right? Well, you know it. A lot of is about connections and, you know, networking and things like that. But I knew one of the things that I found out very, very early on in business, was, know what you don't know. And you know, there's the adage, fake it till you make it well, if you don't have a shot at making it, align yourself with someone who does. And so I was fortunate enough to be introduced to a guy I don't know. Some people might know him. You know, Al trellis with Home Builders network. Okay, Al's been a speaker at IBS for years, and so I was introduced to him a long time ago. And so when I started my business, I just called him up and say, Hey, here's what I'm doing. You know, you got room for one more that, you know, that you can coach and mentor and consult along the way. And he said, Yeah, he goes, You're a horse I'd bet on. So, you know, let's, let's do this. So he was always there to bounce ideas off of ultimately, became a partner in some of our land development too, which was, you know, super helpful and so, so I've always said, you know, you align yourself with a good mentor, and then align yourself with people who are good at what you're not good at. And of course, you can't do that immediately. When you start a business, right? I know finances, but I don't like diving into them, into the minutia of that. But when I started my business, you know, I brought somebody in, you know, one day a week, and handled the finances, handled the draws, that kind of stuff. And, you know, as we grew now, I have a bookkeeper and a CFO and and, you know, they just handle that side of the business for us, which is great. Same thing with, you know, superintendents. When I started my business, you know, I wasn't going to be a superintendent, but, you know, I brought on a contract superintendent who was also my trim carpenter, and he managed the first few jobs for me, until I got to a point where I could hire somebody for that. So I've always thought, you know, and it's worked, you know this far, but you know, have a good mentor, and know what you don't know totally. So would you say that, like selecting a mentor? Is this, like, big, strategic, thoughtful process, or, I guess, more directly, like, how did you pick Al? Was it because Al had, like, a brand and reputation? Or how do you advise people to go about doing this? Well, I picked al because he had done some consulting for me in the other business, and then I was been at number of his seminars, and so we kind of knew each other. And so I just called him up and said, Hey, I'm going to need some help, you know, and that that's how I knew him. And you know, if it wasn't him, I was going to have to find somebody else. And there's, you know, there's always going to be a strategic partner in your line of work. And I found that, you know, there was, there was other strategic partners in, in my business too, you know, there was, there was a land developer. Was actually, it was a lumber yard that had a piece of land that they had developed, okay, I know it was kind of stale, and I, you know, I approached them, and they had been our lumber supplier, and I approached them and said, Okay, you have this I can't afford to buy all your lots. I can't afford to develop land. However, I would, I would like to earn the the status of being the only builder in the neighborhood. Mm. And in return, I'm going to build a model home. We're going to have it open consistent hours, and we're going to have one model home up. We'll have another one underway, but I know the only way to to market this model is I need it furnished, and so I would need help with the furnishings also. And they were on board, and we set up a takedown schedule, and they helped me out with the furniture and gave me exclusive rights to the neighborhood. And, you know, it put us on the map. Totally, yeah, it was real helpful to get us on the map and give us a place where, you know, we could bring people in, they could see our product, and, you know, roll from there. And some people bought in the neighborhood. Some people had their own land, and that's kind of how we are today, too, totally. So is that a play? We'll call it a play, right? Is that a play that you ran like consistently, or is that more just like you mentioned, just to get your foot in the door or your name on the map? Is that something that you do repeatedly, or was that just something to get the worst shade name out there, and then from there, it was all just like referrals. And no, it's consistent to this day, it's still our play Okay, when we develop land. So I have this theory, you know, if you're if you're a car dealer, you're not going to sell cars on an empty lot. Yeah, right. So if I've got, if I've got this development, I got all these lots available to build homes on, but I'm not doing anything to drive people to that neighborhood to see the homes, to see how cool the neighborhood is. I'm not gonna sell any so I've always had a model home and a spec home, so people can come out and see different styles of building and there. And we like to make our neighborhoods unique. So, you know, we're not just building the house, but we're building a place where you can live and you're going to appreciate and because we have control of the neighborhood, you're not going to have somebody buying a lot next door and putting up something that doesn't hold you the value of your home for sure. So Is that so like, and even the like, when you mentioned, like, the control of the neighborhood too, I do want to understand like, a little bit more of like, the experience that you guys build in your neighborhoods, but in terms of going back to this play that you're running of like you, you the lumber yard had the land, and you were like, Hey, I can't afford the land, but I do want exclusive rights to build on it like that to me, just seems like a, a huge win. And B, like, too simple. Is that the is that the play to run for these like guys that are wanting to get into more developments, to go in and just be like, hey, look like the value for the person that has the land is for me to say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the upfront risk of building that spec home or that model home, and this is going to be the product that we're going to start like, showcasing, essentially. And that's enough for them to say, okay, yeah, great. You're the exclusive builder. Or tell me a little bit more about how to get into that world of being exclusive. Being exclusive builder. Yeah, I think possibly God's timing is everything. But, you know, the market was such that, you know, people just weren't buying in there. And the the builder that was in there was building in multiple different areas, so he didn't have a lot of, you know, he didn't have any skin in the game to stay in there, and so I just created this skin and and, you know, we set up a takedown schedule. I still had to commit to buying so many lots a year and stuff. So there was still risk on our side to do this. But upside was, is we were just getting our name out there. And it was hard to do that if you just buy one lot over here, and then you build one house, and then you buy one over here and you buy one over here. Now it's a place where people continually tried, you know, we're driving to to see our homes like, Oh, they're building another one. Oh, what's this one gonna look like? They always do something different, right? And then that's kind of how we got our name on the map. Okay, how big is St Cloud population wise? We're a really, really weird community. So st clouds probably 60,000 okay, but we have the Mississippi river that runs through our city. And okay, cool. St Cloud is on both sides of the river, but the county is, there's two different counties on either side of the river. So we have, we have basically three cities and three different counties in a very, very small area. So they call us the Tri County area. So if you tally everyone up, all the different little communities, 100,000 Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, so I grew up in a town very similar sized, and we always got it was like a feeder city, meaning there was, like, all these, like tiny, like Nebraska towns around Grand Island, and everyone would like come into. Grand Island to, like, do their shopping and stuff like that. But also that's like, what established it as, like a bigger community is people could come in, they knew that there's more amenities, more jobs, stuff like that. Yeah. So that's like, where the demand is coming from. Okay, cool. So even just going back a little bit more, you mentioned that like to kind of differentiate yourselves, like you're building more of, like a place that you live like, what are some of the staple things that you guys have found that have been important to add into these developments in your communities? Or is it just like, purely the product of the home we've when we develop land we we want something different, unique, so like the one I started in that had a giant pond in the middle of it cool. Okay, so pond walking trail kind of a neat place. It wasn't a shortcut to anywhere. If you drove in there, it's because you live there. So, great place to raise a family. We've got another neighborhood that we're just wrapping up. We just have a couple lots left, but that was all acreage living. So that was, you know, 250 acres, 60 lots. And these were all two to nine acre home sites. Everybody addressed, awesome, yeah. So we had, we had, we had that we have a community lodge with a community swimming pool and playground and sledding hill and stuff, so place for people to commune. And so that was the uniqueness of that one. We just started three, four years ago. We just opened up another small, little cul de sac, neighborhood golf course on one side, pond on the other side. So you want lake views, you want golf course views. And again, it's a cul de sac. No, through traffic, not a shortcut. Great place to raise a family. I love it. And to me, that all sounds like very simple stuff, but the simplicity of it is so important, like explaining it as, like, not the cut through neighborhood, that's like, that stuff that someone who's not in building myself would be like, oh, like, you don't even think about it. But then when you get into that neighborhood and you experience it, and it's quiet, and people are on their half acre acre, nine acre lot, right? Like it, just it puts off, like a very compelling place to want to move to. Yeah, and we always try to make the the entrance something special. You know, the one out in the country, you drive in a half a block of landscape before you would see a house, awesome. The one on the golf course, it's called the gates. And so we made the entrance look like a gated community. Well, we can't have those here, but, you know, we have gates up that don't operate. And we got a little guard station that happens to be the bus stop for the kids. Yeah, you know, it's super it's super cool and quaint? Yeah, no, that's awesome. So it sounds like even then. So like, it started with the pond, and now you've got ones with, like, golf course views and other stuff. Is that kind of like, what you saw the trajectory as is, like, just as you got bigger, you take on, like, bigger and bigger and more unique and unique, like, I would call them fixtures to anchor a community around or is that just kind of how it worked out? I think it's just how I'd like to develop land, you know. I think you could probably take a, you know, a flat farm field, and with the right marketing and the right amenities to the neighborhood, you make it really unique. I you know, water is always big. If you can get water, I think that's, that's important and but just making it unique. It's not just a It's not just a flat field. Make it cool. Make it so, make it a place you want to go home to. So, you know, our tagline is, build different. And so that's kind of how we are with the land we developed too, is let's, let's develop it, but let's do it different, totally. No, I love it now. Go ahead. No, you're good. Okay, cool. So with that, so obviously, like in developing and, you know, doing speculative builds, there's, like, a lot of there's a lot of financial risk around that, at least from, like, an outsider's point of view, or maybe someone that's trying to get into it. Do you have any stories where, like, you've won huge or you've lost big time on those projects? Well, I mean, some of it's a little bit of both, you know, some of it was, you know, buying the land when, you know, when people needed to get out of it, and it was expensive. But again, I go back to those strategic partners. You know, we're a builder, our pockets aren't super deep to go out and, you know, crack a million or two on a on a piece of property, but you know, surrounding yourself with that strategic partner, who knows how to put, put a pro forma together, to sell to the banks, you know. So you get your bank involved, to get the landowner involved. So, you know, they're maybe on the hook for a little while, too. And you put some of your own skin in the game. And so you get three or four entities. Is, you know, putting some assets into this and all of a sudden the bite isn't as big. And yes, there's certainly risk. Yes, there's payments you got to make. Yes, there's been, there was, there were some times where we had to go, you know, go digging and and find another well, you know, and you just, you get a couple people that are willing to put some money in to get you through a tough time? Yeah, I would say the the opposite of that is fighting and fighting the sun coming in a window is really weird here. No, you're good. The opposite of that is, we did have a piece of property that we had gone through, you know, all the surveying engineering, and we were just about ready to get going on this, and we had money down with the landowner. And you know, all of a sudden the recession headlights were shining in our eyes, and we're like, we got to pump the brakes right now. And so, you know all that, we just gave our deposit away and say, No, we're not doing this thing right now, and huge blessing. I mean, if we did, we did, I was gonna ask, man, that would have been that. That could have been the story I was telling you about. Yeah, totally so. So that was 100% the right call was to put the brakes, Yep, yeah, that's crazy. And it's, how, mean, how long, like, how fast was that timeline to where you had to make that decision? Boy, that was a while back. But, you know, it didn't take us very long, once the lights were shining in our eyes. You know, it was like, you know, things are changing and things don't feel good, and this is not the time to be doing this. And when the landowner, he understood, we got to keep our deposit. Yeah, totally, but he understood. And I don't know, couple weeks, maybe that's just crazy. We probably had a couple months, you know, months into this thing. But wow, the alternative, if you just would have, like, stuck with it and you were just like, nah, this is just like a blip, and, like, you just, like, doubled down. Bad Well, you know? And the sad part is, there were so many people that got caught in that, yeah, totally good. Good people around here that got caught in it. You know? The good news is, is we were able to take advantage of some of that years later when, you know, land went back to the banks and then back to the county. You know, we bought one little neighborhood on a county auction, and it turned out to be a fantastic, you know, little neighborhood had a lake, of course, but yeah, and we just, we took it and we rebranded it, and, you know, started, started our normal system and process, and it worked out. But, yeah, that was that was a tough time. And some people did fall to victim of the recession, for sure. And again, that was just like everyone talks about it, like if they were building before the recession, or and even some guys that started in the recession, it's just amazing how you make those not gut decisions. Because I'm sure there was more than just like a feeling, but how much that actually plays into it. And it's like your spidey senses are going off, and you're like, This isn't good. Yeah. Yeah. So true. Cool. Well, so with that said, so you you mentioned the strategic partners being big you've referenced a few times. I'm just curious, do you have, like, a strategic partner role, or type of person that you think is just the most important to get aligned with, or is it just kind of like it just depends on what you're doing. I don't think there's necessarily one, okay, I think, I think there's their strategic partners. Some have no vested interest. Some just are there because they want to help you. Some might be a banker, you know, I bring up, you know, Al chelles, he was a strategic partner, because he became part of our, you know, partners, and some of our land deals, that was really helpful. But I look at a lot of, I'd say 90% of our trade partners or subcontractors, they're strategic partners. And, you know, they we work generally with the same people all the time. We establish a relationship with them. And you know, they're loyal, and some of them are just additional supervisors on jobs because they've been with us so long, and the communication out there. So I even look, I go right down to our trade partners as being strategic partners. That's probably the better question. Is like so and that just kind of like opened it up. Is like you view your subcontractors, and I say this regularly, is like some of the best builders I talk to, they don't just look at their subs as people installing tile, right or roughing and plumbing. Mean, right? They like, really emphasize the importance of it. So how big of a swing? So you talk like your subcontractors, you look at them as strategic partners, but who's all included in that net and like, how can the listeners start to, like, really view their business and the individuals they work with on more maybe an elevated lane of thinking with the strategic partner mentality? I think that when once you establish those you know, those trade partners as being your strategic partners, and they understand it too, and you have that relationship, you can leverage that you know they love the fact that you're that you're building homes that consistently using them, and they want to know what how your production schedule is, and you know what your outlook is, so they can kind of balance their year also. So that helps them a lot in their projections. At the same time, they appreciate it enough that you know they might be willing to help you on certain projects. So, fun little story during the recession, nobody's building spec homes, much less customs. But you know, I go back to my my motto, you know, you can't sell cars on an empty lot. So I'm sitting at, I'm in the IDS show, and I'm sitting in a custom home builder, you know, conference, and, you know, everybody's got their head hung low, and times were tough in their state. Is anybody building spec homes? You know, I'm like, the only guy who raised his hands, and they all look and they go, What do you mean? How are how are you building spec homes? The banks aren't giving you any money. You know, how do you afford to do this? And and so I kind of said, Here's my motto. And so I went to, I went to a bank. I said, I want to build spectrum. They said, No. I said, Well, what if I, what if I got somebody outside the industry to co sign for me who, you know, had money in other areas, but would co sign for me to guarantee it? And they said, Sure, but you know, this is how much we need down, like I just want a co signer. So then I went to all my trade partners, my strategic partners, and I said, Okay. I said, if we don't build a spec home, none of you build a spec home. I said, right, if I if we build a spec home, there's a really good chance that we're going to get some marketing relief off of this, and we're going to build another one, because someone came out and saw it, right? And so I said, I will build this back home. I'm going to pay you 60% of your invoice, and you have to hold 40% of it until the day we close. Might be six months. Might be six years, I have no idea. Yeah, and you want to roll the dice with me? And they all said, Yes, that's nuts. So the bank gave me the money. I got a co signer. I didn't have to come up with the money down that the bank required, because all my subs were holding 40% and my interest payment was substantially less because I wasn't borrowing as much. And we brought this back home, and we marketed it, and we sold more homes off of it. And it was great. And it worked great well. So after this, so back to the IBS show. So after the seminar, this guy comes up to me, and he says, I like your story. And I said, Oh, well, thanks. You know it worked. And he was with Residential Design Build magazine. He goes, we're gonna do an article on this, because this is really unique, awesome. And, yeah, it was, it was totally cool. And so they did the spread on us, and they had pictures of the house that we used, and, you know, in this example, and, you know, and so it worked. And we did another one. Well, then the market changed. Things got better. Interest rates came down. And I didn't need anybody for a lot, right? And, you know, here recently, it's, you know, borrowing money from the bank is really expensive. And I went back to my people, I said, same game. And they said, same game. Let's go. I've never heard that. And that is so creative. Like, that's what it takes. Creativity is, you know, I've always said, in order to solve your own problems, you have to solve everybody else's, and it's fun. I love getting creative on any sort of, any sort of deal that's out there, any any opportunity, you know. But again, this worked. And, you know, we did it. We sold the house right away, we're doing another one. It's kind of like that, like, no one goes to an empty bar, right? But people will stand in line right for a bar that's like, looks like it's popping, right? You're kind of the guy that's like, no one else is building. You're the one creating the exciting bar, and that generated more. Interest for people to come along. Yeah, generated more interest. Generated more traffic. Help build our brand some more. And so the tagline, build different works in all areas of this business. It's not just the design where we thought it was, but yeah, you got to get creative in other areas, totally. And I think the other thing too, just like, is like, like a testament to how you do view, you know, networking and your mentors and your strategic partners and all of that is you were, you were, like, essentially taking care of them, like it was important to you to have that conversation. Be like, look like everyone's slow if we don't do this and we don't get, like, a deal cut. That's going to help everybody. Everyone's going to be on the sidelines. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, you know. And the other side of strategic partners is, it's other builders. You know, there's a there's a bunch of us that are in the trenches together, you know, the contractor coalition. Great example. You know, you go, there's a bunch of guys all doing the same thing, all running into the same roadblocks. But every one of them has, has solved that problem, has run into and figured out you can help people out. So, you know, I look at those, those relationships as huge. You know, I have relationships with with great builders in different markets, even in Minnesota, because I can call them up and I say, Hey, here's what I have going on, and you can talk frankly with them, and that those those people, are strategic partners, if you will, because it's all about getting better. And you know, in putting your processes in place, and sometimes they don't work, and you got to reach out to other people and find out what works for them. 100% 100% we haven't touched on processes. What is, what is one of the most recent processes that you've been evaluating and trying to get better? Oh, my team, I'm a geek with processes. Yeah, every time something you know doesn't work, we're like, Okay, what's he going to make us do now? But we had to put another process in place so that doesn't that doesn't change, and so it doesn't happen again. I don't know. I mean, think of a recent one. You know, a recent process might even be just tweaking a process we have, you know, our pre construction process, yeah, you know, I've ran it for years and and it's worked pretty well. And it was just like, you know, I think, I think we got to pull this thing out, you know, and tweak it. And, you know, got some great ideas out of the contractor coalition, and so is all right, how are we going to change our pre construction process so it's so it's better understood by the client, so so they understand the steps involved, and what's the next step in that process? But yeah, I you know, aside from, like, building a schedule to build a house, sure, which our superintendents do. The pre construction process is really important to me. And then the, you know, the client orientation process is very important, yeah, the front end, in the back end. And so every time we finish a house, it's like, okay, what worked, what didn't work, and what process do we change? That's what I was gonna ask. Because, go ahead. No, you're right. Go on. I was literally gonna add on to that. It was gonna be of like, is this more of a is it more of like an like, something happened that motivates the process evaluation, or are you just doing the process evaluation consistently, and it sounds like you're running like a post mortem or a look back, right project, and you and that's where you're talking about the gaps. Yeah, yeah, that that's exactly what we do, you know. And I think getting that client feedback helps a lot. Yeah, you know, for for years, it was really hard for me to step out of the process, you know. So, you know, I always wanted to be involved in, and when I hired my operations manager right now, my COO, you know, he's like, I'll take care of it. You know, you don't have to get involved, and I inherently want to jump in and solve the problem, he says, but when you do that, you cause four more, right? Okay, that's fair. So years ago, we kind of changed our systems that I kind of stepped away and then let the production team take off with it, and then kind of step in at the end. Well, we just recently finished the project, and, you know, one of the clients reviews was, we love our house. It's great. The quality, you know, Superintendent, everybody was awesome, but we were really disappointed that we didn't see Dave very much along the. Way, and in Jim's, like, I've been, I've been trying to do this for years, and I've finally done it, and now you're telling me. And he explained why I don't get involved in the explain my personality. And they said, totally makes sense. Yeah. He goes, if Dave got involved, and, you know, stopped in and said hi to you more often. And you said, you know that I got a problem with this. He's going to want to fix it, and he's going to cause four more problems for me. He says, totally. And so it was but, but it was enough, you know, that we had to reevaluate and say, Okay, I do need a couple more touch points along the way, because they felt that, and if they're in telling us, others may have also. So, you know, it's that kind of stuff where you're just constantly just, you know, retooling this thing. I think that's that then itself is so great because you're, like, you made the jump that so many small business owners, builders, contractors, specifically, of like, removing themselves from the business, right? Yeah, you did it. And then you get that pain of, or the client saying, like, we wanted more Dave time, yeah? And I think, yeah, exactly. You're like, I finally did it. Another dragging me back in. But I think we need to have kudos. Who's your coo? What's your co host name, Jim. Jim needs a shout out, because to have that conversation with the client and be able to articulate it in that way for them to say that makes a ton of sense, that is what keeps you from getting dragged back into the process, but then keeping it proactive and helpful to be like, okay, Dave's gonna be like, getting coffee or breakfast with them, and this is the top, like, the topics that you're going to talk about. And if you have any of these challenges with the home, this is who they go to and how we handle it, yeah? Like, that's just as much of a process, and the importance of removing yourself from the business than just saying, like, all right, I got the team. I'm stepping away. I'm out, right? Yeah, yeah. So I'm a, I'm a processing Jim does a great job at our at our pre construction meetings, our kickoff meetings, you know. And say, Okay, how do you like to communicate? Phone calls, email, text messages. What works best, you know? And they they tell us, and he says, Okay, I'm really good with emails. If you need me right away, text but I have one rule, if you're pissed off, you pick up the phone and you call me. You know that doesn't happen any other way. And he says it right out of the jump. And they pick up the phone. It was like, oh, must have a problem. What's on your mind? Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. What would you say is the like, biggest piece of advice you would give listeners, whether they're younger builders, newer builders, or they are older builders, more tenured builders, that are trying to get to a position that you guys are with multiple entities, removing yourself as the owner from the from the true day to day. What advice would you give them? You know, I think I said a little bit, but no, know what you don't know and do do what you do know when you, when you grow different entities in a business, you know, we have, you know, we have a portfolio of rental homes. When I got my first rental home, anybody who comes to me and says, Oh man, I don't, I don't think I can make, you know, make rent this month, you know, and they give me their hardship, oh, man, that's okay, you know, we'll catch up next month. And that's just my that's who I am. I just want to help people, right? And you can't run a rental business that way. And I remember this to this day. I had a guy come in to give me his story, and he brought in his wife and his kid, and Nancy, who works for me, is just a rock star. She takes care of she's I call her. She's my dumping ground. Anything I need done, she just makes it happen. Well, this guy comes in, and she knew what he was coming in for, and so she said, and I knew what he was coming in for. And she said, hey, you know John step in my office for a second. And so he went in his office, and she closed the door, and then he left, and I said, Well, how'd that go? She goes, Oh, we got our rent. I go, how'd you do that? Yeah. And she said, Well, I sat him down, and I said, Listen, you have a lot of responsibilities, and two of the biggest ones are on the other side of that door, your wife and your child. And if you want to stay in this home and keep a roof over your head, you need to figure out how to, you know. And she just treated him like he was a 16 year old, yeah? Like that was cool. You have a new position. Yeah, you are now the rent collector, and, and, and she's great with it, you know. And me. Yeah, I want to help everybody, and I would, I would have gone broke, but everybody would have had a good roof over their head, 100 so I think, you know, my point is, you know, get people in the right position, and if you're not that person, get somebody who can help you. And if you can't afford to get somebody, and he'll get somebody who can help you once a month or once a week, or whatever it is, that's awesome, that that that's, I guess, my, my biggest thing, get your processes in place, work on that and and don't forget that. I hate it sounds harsh, but we're, we're building homes. We're just building homes. Yeah, a lot of times that we get so deep into the weeds, especially when you have a larger business and all the different things that are going on. If the bottom line is your job is to build a house, a nice house for a customer and and you want that process to go smooth. So you know, what can you do to do that? And if you're just starting out, you do it with one home. You know, don't make it your goal to build 12 your first year. Totally, no, I think that's, I think just all of it like, know what you don't know? Focus on mentors, build strong strategic partners, focus on processes, keep all of that bundled up in the reality that you're just building homes. I think that's really sound advice, yeah, and, and have fun. It's, it's a totally just continue to have fun with it. You're gonna it. You're gonna run into things that you know may keep you up at night, but they're, they're all growing pains, and you're just gonna get better from it 100% well. And that's everywhere, right? Yeah, right. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're building homes or building a software company, or working at a home builder or working at a software you got to keep all that in check. That's self good advice. Yeah, 100% all the things I'm saying. You know, take the same recipe and go make widgets. It's the same stock. Totally, totally. Well, I appreciate you, Dave, thanks for hopping on the podcast. You're, you're a wealth of knowledge. Oh yeah, no, it's my pleasure. I love your podcast. I love listening to, you know, all the different people you have on there, the finance people, the cost plus the fixed price people, you know, that kind of stuff is a blast. And you know, we run into all those things too, and it's fun to see what's going on. Of course, of course. And that's, I think that's the big part, is getting people like you that are willing to tell their story, share what they've learned, all just to positively impact the fine Contractors of America. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're all gonna raise the, you know, raise the tide, raise the boat, but we're all gonna get better. And that's, that's a big, that's a big part of it, and we love it, and we're gonna keep doing it 100% and thank you for what you do. Reese, I appreciate that, Dave, you know, I'm just the guy behind the mic, you know? I just, I just sit down, I open up a little conversation, do my thing, yeah? But sometimes you're having a Modelo, sometime you're having an athletic you know? I mean, it's just, it's fun stuff. That's right, that's right. I need, I need to pick up the beer thing again. I haven't. I've moved to solo cups, primarily because, hey, there's no beer in here. It's water, but, but, yeah, no, we moved into the new office in Boston. We've got a we've got a big team that we're building out, and Costco sells a ton of solo cups, so I just need to figure out how to fill them up with beer, which typically get a solo cup that's actually metal. Now, actually, I think I need to get one of those. I need to get one of those branded with BBB on it, right, right? Yeah. I love it. Do it? Yeah. Okay, okay. Well, that's my homework. I need to figure out how to incorporate getting beers back onto the podcast, which, again, it shouldn't be a challenge, but, you know, hey, what's what's in a name that's right, that's right, and that everyone gives me grief over that. But you know, it is what it is. I love it. That's what caught my attention. That's right, that's right. You know, we're marketing guys, right, right, exactly. That's what we do. Well, cool. Well, I appreciate you. You enjoy the rest of your day, and certainly don't be a stranger. Yeah, we'll be in touch. Thanks. All right, see you there. See you.