Episode #38 Are Australians racist? With social researcher Neer Korn

Tami and Dash sit down with social researcher and author Neer Korn to explore the big question: Is Australia actually racist? From synagogue attacks to very public displays of anti-Zionism, Jewish Australians are feeling less safe since October 7. Neer explains why that fear - while understandable - might not reflect the full story. They cover antisemitism, institutional racism and why your average Aussie doesn’t think much about Jews at all.

Articles relevant to this episode: 

https://thejewishindependent.com.au/are-australians-racist-ive-been-trying-to-bait-them-for-years

https://thejewishindependent.com.au/australias-last-antisemitism-crisis-was-different

https://thejewishindependent.com.au/survey-shows-protests-are-hurting-the-palestinian-cause

Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au

Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_writer_celebrant and dashiel_and_pascoe

X: TJI_au

YouTube: thejewishindependentAU

Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU

Instagram: thejewishindependent

LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent

Transcript

Introduction & Moving Apartments

Speaker 1 0:06

Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia , the Middle East and the world at large , but struggling to keep up with the news cycle ? Are you already over matzah ? Were you ghosted by a prophet on the weekend ? If you answered yes to those questions , then you've come to the right place .

Speaker 2 0:25

Chag Sameach everyone . I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and , in this podcast series , your irreverent third cousin , your perennial Seder clown , tammy Sussman , and I call on experts and each other to address all of your ignorant questions that you've been too ashamed to ask .

Speaker 1 0:43

Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics .

Speaker 2 0:49

Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast . Ashamed to Admit .

Speaker 1 1:01

Hello everyone , I'm Tammy .

Speaker 2 1:04

I'm Dash .

Speaker 1 1:05

Dash is the Executive Director of the Jewish Independent .

Speaker 2 1:10

And I'm thrilled to announce that very soon , tammy will be the Chief Vibe Officer of TJI . Pending board approval Tammy , did you write that ?

Speaker 1 1:22

Yeah , I just edited the script real quick before we started recording .

Speaker 2 1:26

Yeah , I don't recall that . I had that in there originally .

Speaker 1 1:29

Okay , well , you know be the change Dash . How do I look today ? Listeners can't see me , but you can .

Speaker 2 1:37

You're looking very green today .

Speaker 1 1:39

I'm looking green . Yeah , the wall behind me is green . I'm recording from my grandmother's house because I did move over the weekend and the apartment that I've moved into is very noisy . It's right on a main road and it's next to a police station so there are random eruptions of sirens every few minutes . So I thought you know our listeners may not want to hear that they might get some of Maroubra's best bird noises from outside my grandmother's window .

Speaker 2 2:08

Love that A few aeroplanes .

Speaker 1 2:10

Dash , I thought you were going to say I look tired because I feel tired .

Speaker 2 2:15

Yes , you look tired . But , Tammy , that is understandable . You've just moved apartments on the weekend .

Speaker 1 2:21

Moving is a huge undertaking . It's an enormous job and Dash . I couldn't have done it without my village , my friends , my family . I spent a lot of time with my parents over the weekend maybe a bit too much time with my dad . For those listeners who also follow me on social media , he's the guy who's always in the high-vis vest . He works in construction , in materials , handling , traffic control .

Speaker 2 2:58

Would not want to mess with your dad . I get gruff vibes from your dad not me personally , just from the little bits and pieces that I've picked up through social media .

Speaker 1 3:09

Couldn't be further from the truth . He's the biggest softie . Oh , is he . Anyway , because of his background in project management , he project managed the whole move . He got in there , he was very hands-on , he's almost 70 and he was lifting and he was on his feet from 7 am to 7 pm industrious yeah , so spending that amount of time with him was a really great opportunity for me to hear him rehash every catchphrase I've heard him say over the past 30 plus years .

Speaker 1 3:46

Such as he will answer the phone and he'll say how are they hanging Bit to the left bit to the right . Okay , doing such a great job . I don't care what anyone says about you . I think you're great .

Speaker 2 4:00

Oh yeah , that one . I heard a new one from my dad .

Speaker 1 4:06

Oh yeah , that one . I heard a new one from my dad . Oh yeah , he and a mate were measuring my fridge and they realised that it was going to fit exactly . And my dad said , oh , it'll fit like a finger in a bum .

Speaker 2 4:17

Okay , not sure that that's for ATA listeners , Tammy .

Speaker 1 4:23

Like a finger in a bum .

Speaker 2 4:27

Yep , yep , did not need that visual .

Speaker 1 4:29

Have you heard that one before ?

Speaker 2 4:31

Never heard that one . Don't really want to hear that one again , thank you .

Speaker 1 4:35

Last week I heard you say swings and roundabouts . I'd never heard that before .

Speaker 2 4:40

Every now and again I might be guilty of a cliche or two , but like if I say something like that , I'm taking the mick .

Speaker 1 4:46

Taking the mick .

Speaker 2 4:48

I'm not being sincere .

Speaker 1 4:49

I think in Melbourne you have different catchphrases . I've never heard swings around about the four and I've never heard take the mick .

Speaker 2 4:56

Right or drain the weasel . That was a new one for you .

Speaker 1 5:00

Please let me keep that in the episode , because we're like besties . Now I'm like Dash , I've got to go do a pish , which for our non-Jewish listeners is I need to pee . And then one time Dash said I need to go drain the weasel . What about this one Dash ?

Speaker 2 5:20

Go on .

Speaker 1 5:21

When you were growing up ? Did you hear any boomers in your life say I'm not racist , I hate everyone the same ?

Speaker 2 5:28

No , I've heard the . I'm not racist , but I heard that one . That's like the classic indicator that someone's just about to say something that actually is racist or prejudice , but they're astute enough to know that they should frame it in a more palatable fashion . But your dad just jumps straight to it . He's like I'm not racist , I just hate everyone .

Speaker 1 5:49

I hate everyone the same . I think that's a sentiment shared by a lot of Australians . What do you think as a white Anglo man ? Do you perceive Australia as a racist country ? Do you ?

Speaker 2 6:06

perceive Australia as a racist country . Such a big , broad , general question .

Speaker 1 6:12

Sorry . You don't want to answer it , do you ?

Speaker 2 6:16

As John Safran once said with regard to religious extremists in his book , depends what you mean by racist . This conversation today is , I think , going to surprise our listeners , those who adopt the immediate position that , yes , Australia is a racist country or yes , Australians have a problem with racism . Our guest today has thrown kind of new light and provoked me to rethink this question about how prevalent are racist attitudes and prejudice in Australia . What about you ?

Speaker 1 6:56

It depends on what the algorithm is serving me . When I see a lot of content about racism against Jews , or I see news reports about new incidents of violence against other minority groups , then I think , yeah , okay , Australia has a racism problem . But then I might read an article like the one Nia Korn wrote for the Jewish Independent and and I might go back to the fence and sit on that fence for a little bit . I haven't made up my mind .

Speaker 2 7:28

Some people do get quite provoked by this question , particularly if you're more on the right side of politics . You sort of tend to view that Australia has nothing to apologise for or nothing to feel shameful of .

Speaker 1 7:43

Ashamed to admit .

Speaker 2 7:44

And I just think that you know , it's just not true , and Nir talks about this in his article . Maybe it's just about the level of how overt it is . Maybe that's another way of rethinking it . Maybe Australians are withholding their prejudice than other countries .

Speaker 1 8:02

I don't know .

Speaker 2 8:03

It's a question that I still don't have an answer to .

Speaker 1 8:06

Joining us in the studio today is Nir Korn , a social and consumer researcher and author . His work with the Korn Group has produced over 120 large-scale reports on Australian society . He's a popular speaker at conferences and company planning days on social issues and trends , and his range of speaking topics covers every avenue of Australian life .

Speaker 2 8:32

Nia's writing and commentary has regularly been published in newspapers and magazines nationally , including now for the Jewish Independent . Nia's three non-fiction titles include Shades of Belonging , conversations with Australian Jews , life Behind Bars , conversations with Violent Male Inmates and his latest book She'll Be Right or Will she ? A Journey into the Australian Psyche . We hope you enjoy this conversation with a man who gets to talk to Australians near Corn ,

Is Australia a Racist Country?

Speaker 2 9:31

near corn . Welcome to the ashamed to admit studio . Thank you very much near . I understand that you've been a social researcher for 25 years . As a part of that career , you have run hundreds and hundreds of focus groups and I'm wanting to know what have you learned about Australians over time and how have you seen a change in attitudes over that time that you've been interviewing Australians ?

Speaker 3 10:04

Fundamentally , australians are good people . They're caring people , they really believe in the live and let live attitude and they're respectful of each other . The radical ideas or thoughts were not present in all this time until recently . Not present in all this time until recently , and now I'm getting an inkling of it , because the entire Western world has become quite divided and no longer is there much of a middle ground . It feels like you have to take an extreme position either way , so you're either very extreme on the right or you're very extreme on the left on various issues . But while Australia still has a large middle ground , I could see us slipping towards the way America is in that sense , where the division is so strong and everyone is adamant that their opinion is the correct one as opposed to being open to others .

Speaker 2 11:06

That's so interesting . So you are charting and seeing the polarisation of our age unfolding in the course of these focus groups and conversations . Can you tell our listeners how these sessions are run , what the types of questions that you ask people and why it's such a powerful and valid insight into what ordinary Australians think and feel ?

Speaker 1 11:33

You've said you try to create an atmosphere that would enable people to express controversial views , to see if you could uncover racism . So I would love to know how you set that up .

Speaker 3 11:45

Social research is really divided into two methods . One is quantitative , when you survey people and find out what they think , and the other one is qualitative , where it's all open-ended . It's not about the exact answer to which of these thoughts do you think reflects you best , but it's more like what are your thoughts , what do you believe ? And the way to get at that is by having random people . I do it through companies whose job it is to recruit people and I give them a broad sense of people . It doesn't have to be very exact . I tend to divide the sexes in my groups . Otherwise you get quite a bit of tension in the group , which I don't like . I do it according to socioeconomic very often , and I do it geographically and by age , and then it's all open-ended .

Speaker 3 12:37

Traditionally , a focus group is you have a few people sitting in a lounge room or an office and you ask them questions that are about their thinking . So if they go , here's my answer . I then say well , why , how did you come to that ? And what I'm doing is sifting through all the different answers to find the gold in there . What is the common factor overall ? Why and how does it differ between , say , people who live in rural areas and people who live in cities and the way I manage to get them , and each one has a topic of its own generally . So you know , I might look at health and wellbeing , I might look at attitude , I might look at work , and it all depends on the topic I'm researching at the time and I will do a whole lot of focus groups and interviews on that topic and from there what I will do is write a report and then I go out and present that to a whole lot of focus groups and interviews on that topic and from there what I will do is write a report and then I go out and present that to a whole lot of interested parties who want to know what the broad understanding of people are so they can fulfill their aims . The way I do I manage to open it up , essentially by playing the idiot Like I don't know anything , and I make it clear to them I don't know anything , so share with me .

Speaker 3 13:51

Allow them to say things that are controversial is by saying that's really interesting , because in all the other groups I did , I heard something different . Or in the racism one . When I look at that , I say to people right , in other groups . I hear that migrants from this country are like this Don't you find that ? And that gives them a chance to resist me . And that's what I'm looking at . How enthusiastic am I ? Are they about my view and say , yeah , that's right , that's what I feel ? Or look , I don't feel that way at all and to me that's gold , because they resisted me and they came up with an opinion and then I can honestly say this is what they feel , and I test them over and over to try and get that sense from them . So if I hold an extreme view , it's their opportunity to do that and kind of reflect back at me .

Speaker 3 14:46

And the most important thing is to create an atmosphere in the group that allows people to speak openly . And that's done by the introductions initially , and they go to introduce themselves and ask a basic and answer a basic question . And then we go through and suddenly , if a group is great , they've bonded with each other and I can ask a question and they will argue or debate it between themselves and I don't have to do anything . And often there's a silent time and that's very difficult , especially for me , because I feel like butting in and saying something and I have to watch myself and just sit there for as long as it takes , until somebody else is uncomfortable with the silence , and then they speak and that sparks other people .

Speaker 2 15:33

Fascinating .

Speaker 1 15:34

So , nir , we've brought you on to the podcast this week because you have just written a striking article in the Jewish Independent , and the name of that article is Are Australians Racist ? And in that piece you point out that Australian Jews are rightfully concerned , even scared , by events locally and globally since October 7 . So , with an eye to the spate of anti-Semitic incidents over the past few months , you ask the question is this a reflection of broader anti-Semitic feelings among Australians or is it just limited to a relatively small number of disgruntled

Meet Nir Korn: Social Researcher

Speaker 1 16:23

individuals , of disgruntled individuals ? So Dash and I are curious to know is Australia a racist country ? But before you answer that , can we ask you what prompted you to write the piece in the first place ?

Speaker 3 16:41

Because whenever you ask Australians , people tend to adamantly say yes , we are racist . And it seems to be the popular view that you read about the media , in the media constantly , of how racist a country we are . And having poked and prodded on this for such a long time , I'm adamant in my view , but it's a very unpopular one , you know . I've lost geeks over it . I've been kicked out of one of the main TV stations' newsroom . There seems to be a real resistance to it and the sense that yes , we are racist , but I can't find the rationale for it . And I also do not understand why people hold on to that view so strongly when there's very little evidence of it . And what we see is , every time there's a racial incident , every time something happens , it's immediately said see , we are racist , see , that's a reflection of who the country is . But I see the opposite . We've seen so many years where it's been ingrained on us that we're a multicultural society and , as I said in the beginning , we're inherently a live and let live society and that's the important bit , that it's live and let live . Do what you like , like be , whatever religion you are , wear whatever garb you have , except for the nikbah , and at the same time you come across people from every background in your workplace , in cafes , in festivals , and everyone gets along . And then we have something that comes along like somebody screams something on somebody on a train and suddenly it goes viral and it means proof of that . But the reason I say that we are so sensitive to it is , in fact , because we're not racist and it shocks us .

Speaker 3 18:45

For Jews , there's a sense of paranoia whenever something is mentioned that's anti-Semitic . And I would say , just because somebody graffitis a wall or puts a Palestinian flag up , that might say that that person is anti-Semitic . Maybe the group they belong to is anti-Semitic but does not reflect the popular view across the place . And even when I say , but look at that group and what they do and how we view them and look at that group , look at Asians . They don't assimilate and people just fight back against it . People don't believe it and essentially they don't even think about it .

Speaker 3 19:24

It's not an issue that's foremost in people's minds and it's also not something people want to see in Australia . They do want to see that everyone gets along . Now I should say that an exception to this is Indigenous Australians , and it's a much more complex issue . That would require an entire podcast , because there's a lot of underlying elements to it that we have to understand before we can make an opinion on that . What I find in the Jewish community is that they're so sensitive to anything that's anti-Israel , and I have a feeling of where that all comes from is a sense of panic and paranoia . And suddenly we're back in 1930s Austria . Burning cars and burning a synagogue is horrific , but again it doesn't reflect wider Australian society . People didn't sit at home , watch the TV or their screen and clap their hands in support . Yeah , look what they did to the Jews . That is not the case .

Speaker 2 20:32

So , nia , what I'm hearing you say is that there are many examples and obviously we've had some particularly recently of anti-Semitic attacks , and you would accept as valid the examples that Jewish community might point to . But what you would question is that there is a population-wide level of anti-Semitism . That you're saying . Look at the data . It's just not borne out in the qualitative data that you have seen over many years and also in the quantitative data . Have I got that right , nir ?

Speaker 3 21:13

Yes , one thing that came up for me in the groups over and over again is Australians don't mind migrants . At the moment they're minded because of housing issues and et cetera . But they say look , there's one thing we expect from migrants in our country and that

How Focus Groups Reveal Australian Attitudes

Speaker 3 21:33

is leave your problems behind . And I think that those who support the Palestinian cause have done themselves and the core cause a great disservice in Australia . When they see these marches with these big b in Australia , when they see these marches with these big banners and when they see it turning violent , they say this doesn't belong in Australia . If you really want to do this , go back to your country and do it . At the same time , they see the Jewish people having these vigils with songs , with appointed speeches , and they could also look at October 7th and be horrified by it . The things that happened to people , to young people , at a music concert , at a music festival . I mean those things Australians can look at and look , I think there is a predisposition to think of people from Muslim backgrounds as being violent . You know and you hear a lot of times Muslim leaders say Islam is a religion of peace , and what Australians respond to that is really Really . How can you possibly say that when what they see is ISIS and terrorism and things like that ? So they don't actually reflect that . And I've got to say that the Muslims community have it much harder than the Jewish community does . Ever since 9-11 has been that case . It's much harder to be a Muslim in Australia than to be a Jewish person in Australia . And I remember recently hearing a rabbi speak and he was saying people ask me isn't it difficult when I wear such obvious Jewish outfits , isn't it racist constantly ? And he said you know , I do get nasty comments shouted at me from cars , but at the same time I have nice comments shouted at me from cars and you have to balance it out and to suggest that the person who shouts it out is a reflection of Australia . I think it's a really bad mistake to make , because our self-reflection does not celebrate the fact that we celebrate difference , but it's a reflection of the negative . So , yes , those Jewish incidents are horrendous . They're horrendous , they shouldn't happen and people wish that the government would crack down on it . So any talk , for example , of cancelling the visas of people who act like that . People said absolutely we should do that because we don't see these things .

Speaker 3 24:13

People remember one thing when they say Australia is a racist country , and that was the Cronulla riots in Sydney . And that was when there was a clash between Anglo-Australians and a certain sector of the Muslim community in Australia and that became violent . People were hurt . It spread through text messages . There were violent incidents across Sydney in different places . But think about this that happened over 20 years ago . Is that the best we can do when we think about Australia as a racist country ? That was so long ago and that's what retains the memory of people . And since then there's been so little , apart from specific incidents at specific times . And when I really push people and I ask them , what do I do in the groups ? I turn them to people who are obviously ethnic and I say , all right , tell me what happened to you . And they struggle and then they say you know , once we were walking and somebody shouted at me and well , okay , that's bad , but is it really that bad ?

Speaker 1 25:27

Nir , I'm surprised by a lot of what you're saying . Something which stood out to me from your article was when you wrote about the institutionalised racism against Indigenous Australians . You wrote it's an ever-present stain . So how do we hold that truth whilst also talking about anti-Semitism and the Islamophobia that you've just mentioned and other forms of prejudice , without descending into a kind of competitive suffering ?

Speaker 3 26:00

It's really , really complicated . The institutionalised racism is apparent in some areas and we just talked to police in the Northern Territory of Western Australia , where recent commissions have seen that that has been the case and incidents reflect that . Look at the fact that we imprison more Indigenous people per capita than any other country in the world . Look , I did a book about prisons where I went and I spoke to violent inmates , including Indigenous ones , and what they said to me is look , I'm more comfortable in prison than I am in greater society because they can feel it . You know , one of the guys told me and he was young , he was only 30 , and he said to me , and he lived in Redfern , and he said to me you know , when we walk home from school , my parents tell me to avoid the police whatever happens , because it's so strong in their mind . So is the Stolen Generation , which is also very strong in their mind .

Speaker 3 27:06

Now , the reason ? It's multitude reasons , but one of the biggest ones that I came across was that Australians , by and large , have very little experience of Indigenous people . There's only two categories that they know of those have made it in broader society to leadership positions the Noel Pearsons , if you like , and then there's the ones they notice on the corner , drunk and frightening , and that is so not true . When I spoke to people in rural areas , they were telling me that they have a much more sophisticated view of it . There were the Indigenous people who were totally dysfunctional in their lives , and for very good reason , and they just avoided those areas .

Speaker 3 27:58

And then there were all the Indigenous people who lived like the rest of the community , who worked with them , who shopped with them , who dined with them , and they were just living normal lives . They just happened to be Indigenous . But the overall sense is that Australians actually care about Indigenous people . They want them to succeed in life . They're ashamed by the fact that we haven't been able to resolve this , despite having so many royal commissions , that nothing has happened in regard to that and we continue to have it . They're ashamed of the fact that we stole the generations . In fact , paul Keating's Redford speech , which is very much lauded , where he said we stole the people , we did this and we did that , that would really

Indigenous Australians: A Complex Exception

Speaker 3 28:50

fit the mark to be played today .

Speaker 2 28:53

Nia , the sense I get from reading your article and from our conversation today is this is maybe not how you would characterise it , so feel free to correct me but is of a relatively benign view that most Australians have to foreigners and to the other , the other and you point to this in the end of the article where you ask the question so what do Australians really think of Jews and Israel ? And you mention an example or a response that Vladimir Putin is once have said when he was asked at the APEC summit in 2007 , what does he think of Australia ? He responded I don't . I don't think Right . So we're left with the impression that most Australians have a relatively you know benign view of outsiders and others , including Jews and Israel , and that they don't really know or really care care . What about the view that indifference is just as dangerous as explicit racism or hate ?

Speaker 1 30:09

Because that's the message I received at Jewish school , especially when we were learning about the Holocaust . It was like the people who were the perpetrators of the Holocaust were bad , but so were . The people who did nothing were bad , but so were the people who did nothing .

Speaker 3 30:19

Australians don't need to think about it because they don't see the problem . Now , one of the things I've observed and I used to work at the Jewish Board of Deputies in Sydney many years ago and I used to receive all the media cuttings every day and all these publications and my head was filled with Jewish , Jewish , Jewish . What do they think of us ? And when I left that job , suddenly it dawned on me it doesn't exist in the outside world . And I think , look , this has been really controversial , I'm sure , but I think part of it is the fact that we teach our children Jewish identity more from the negative than the positive . Look what they did to us , Look what happened . And I think that really sensitizes us , and I'm really surprised at the degree to which the Jews that I've spoken to really feel like this is absolute horror . How can you turn a blind eye to this ? And my response is what I finished the article with when did you last think of the Rohingyas in Myanmar ? I mean , their whole population is being decimated . There's a million of them living on some island off Sri Lanka as refugees . Why don't you give them some thought ? And if you expect people to think about October 7th . Shouldn't you be thinking about that as well ? Or what about the Yugos in China ? I mean the re-education camps that they're being sent to , and I could name multitudes of issues that we ignore . And yet we expect the rest of Australia to be so concerned about the things that bother us so much , and people see that as a sign of broad anti-Semitism or latent anti-Semitism . So you're absolutely right .

Speaker 3 32:16

The people who to say that , yeah , the people who to say that , yeah , the people are silent , they're the problem . But I would ask the jews are you part of the problem or solution ? You know what are you doing in your life , because obviously every community is caught up with its own issues , but it's such a focus that it makes people seek the information and ideas that reflect their own point of view and not the opposite , nothing else . I know some people who get all their news for one particular media source that tends to be all pro-Israel , all anti-Arab , and it's a vindication for them , but nobody's out there thinking of hold on a second , and my view , very strongly , is that the suffering and pain that Jewish people feel is not mutually exclusive of the suffering and pain that ordinary Palestinians feel .

Speaker 3 33:12

Now , to many people , that would make me an absolute radical , and yet I'm not comfortable with either side , really , because both views are very radical the anti-Israel camp and the pro-Israel camp . And I say that , by the way , as an Israeli former Israeli , I guess , with all his family in Israel . One of my cousins died on October 7th . I have a cousin who lost two of his best friends when he was in a very high unit of the army and they reached a trip wire and he saw them explode right before his eyes . I'm a huge supporter of Israel , a passionate one , but I still maintain what I think is a perspective that I think lacks in the Jewish community and , as I said , that's a really unpopular view to hold .

Speaker 2 34:02

It is and it will be interesting to see how people respond to your thoughts in this podcast today . We did at the Jewish Independent did a study called Crossroads 21 , the largest survey of its kind of the general Australian population on their attitudes towards Jewish people and their attitudes towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict . Nia , and I have to say , what you have raised today was borne out in that data . So , yes , very low levels of antisemitism

What Australians Really Think About Jews

Speaker 2 34:33

were exhibited in the responses . People had a generally , you know , relatively favourable or neutral view about Jewish people .

Speaker 2 34:42

But critically , I think this is really important to think about today is , when asked about the conflict , most Australians and I've talked about this on the podcast before most Australians do not take a strong position either for or against Israelis or Palestinians . They don't know , they don't feel informed enough to give an answer or they don't have a preference . Because you did say at the start of this conversation , you're seeing a slight radicalization in some of your conversations and some of your focus groups . People are starting to become more polarized . We're going to actually do that survey again this year . Would you expect that the data will probably be the same again , that despite October 7th , there wouldn't have been a significant shift in how people respond .

Speaker 3 35:29

We expect there to be very little shift because they don't think about it , they don't care about it . You know , most people have their day-to-day run I've got to get the kids to school , I've got to get the meal on the table , I'm worried about paying for things . So I suspect there will be some negative views of Israel because of everything they see . I mean , when they see on the TV , they see Gazans being bombed , these kids , and they can't help but think , geez , that's mean of the Israelis to do that . And then they'll see images of October 7 , and it will merely reinforce their view that Muslims are violent people .

Speaker 3 36:12

But overall , I don't expect there to be much of a change . By the way , when you ask Australians , what do you think of Jews , you know they're reluctant to say , but then they'll say things like well , jews are rich , and I think it's reasonable to say that many Jews are rich . I mean , the truth is that a huge percentage of the Jewish population is very poor . The biggest housing commission here in Surrey Hills in Sydney is filled with Jews from the former Soviet Union who can never afford to live anywhere else . But it's reasonable for them to see the view that Jews are rich .

Speaker 1 36:50

Why is it reasonable ?

Speaker 3 36:52

They see the you know , the fortune fire , the Australian 500 richest Australians . Richest Australians were overrepresented in that list and they also think the Jews are really smart . The Jews are very educated but overall they see the Jews have made a great contribution , not a negative one , a really positive one . But beyond that they don't think about it whatsoever . You know , it doesn't cross their mind and most Australians only interact with Jews .

Speaker 1 37:23

I am in an author's group and an author colleague of mine . She loves going and running author workshops in rural areas . She says , tammy , I never experience antisemitism when I'm there . Antisemitism doesn't exist because no one's ever met a Jew .

Speaker 3 37:45

If you ran your survey and made a concerted effort overall which is why this story is so good to hear with the arts community , you will find there a very strong view against Israel really strong , I suspect . And that's because that is where you find the if you like , the radical division . You know they're all pro because the right wing and non-arts people are anti and I think it's fair to say that . But also we are very sensitive to it . Just because a Palestinian author speaks at a writers' festival doesn't make him anti-Semitic necessarily or the organisation anti-Semitic . It just means that they are reflecting views . But , as I said , the arts community will tend in some areas to look for the radical .

Speaker 1 38:41

Well , I think it becomes anti-Semitic when there isn't balance . So it's fine for a pro-Palestinian speaker to speak at a festival , but when there are five pro-Palestinians and no Zionists or you know overtly Jewish panels or speakers , then I think people have the right to get upset .

Speaker 3 39:01

Yes , you could even call that anti-Semitic .

Speaker 1 39:04

Yes .

Speaker 3 39:04

You know they'd call , as you know , people rationalising it by saying it's anti-Zionist , but we all know that it's the same thing essentially .

Speaker 1 39:14

Nir , we ask all of our interviewees if they're ashamed to admit . Anything in general doesn't have to be related to today's chat .

Speaker 3 39:24

I am vegetarian for many years and I'd love to be vegan , but I'm ashamed of the fact that I can't give up dairy . I was ashamed of my views many , many years ago , you know , when I went to school I didn't stop people from making horrific remarks about gay people , about Indigenous people , about Asian migrants , and I didn't stop it . But I'd like to think that I have matured since then and so have my views , and these days I just would not tolerate it and in myself I'm proud to be Jewish . If anyone asks , I'll tell them , and if it's relevant I'll tell them , but I have no compunction in being proud of who I am . There was a period of time when I was quite religious not anymore as much and I started wearing kippah and the only people who gave me flack for it were Jews who would say

Closing Thoughts & What's Next

Speaker 3 40:22

right , they've turned you , they've converted you . But everyone else was just completely respectful of it . I once wore a kippah to my high school in Year 12 , to school , just to see what happened . Nothing happened .

Speaker 1 40:36

Wow , you were into the research before you'd even left school .

Speaker 3 40:42

I don't know if I fell into it because I'm so interested in other people's viewpoints . I'm so conscious that my viewpoint may not be the right one and I'm open to changing it . I don't like dogma . It really bothers me . In the broader community and the Jewish community , I think you can open yourself up and you can even have contradictions in your life , because I think most people , if not all , have contradictions in their life and what they believe and what they actually do .

Speaker 1 41:15

That's a lovely way to end this conversation .

Speaker 2 41:18

It's been great talking with you , Nia . Thank you so much for your time .

Speaker 3 41:22

Really enjoyed it , thank you .

Speaker 1 41:25

That was social and consumer researcher and author Nia Korn . And that's it for today's episode . You've been listening to A Shame to Admit with me Tammy Sussman .

Speaker 2 41:36

And me , Dash Lawrence .

Speaker 1 41:38

This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King , with theme music by Donovan Jenks .

Speaker 2 41:43

If you liked the episode , forward it to a mate .

Speaker 1 41:46

You can tell them that the episode was nearly as enjoyable as a finger in a bum . You can make complaints about these episodes via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or email us . Tell us what you're ashamed of or topics you'd like us to cover . The email address is ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau .

Speaker 2 42:09

As always , thanks for your support , and I'm going to take a break for the next few weeks as I'm heading off overseas , so look out for Tammy and her special guests .

Speaker 1 42:21

We're going to miss you Dash .

Speaker 2 42:22

Thank you , thank you .

Speaker 1 42:24

You got your short shorts ready ?

Speaker 2 42:25

I do indeed , I'm actually thinking about going half tights this time around , but yeah , okay , because what's the weather like in the UK ?

Speaker 1 42:32

Coldish .

Speaker 2 42:32

Okay , half tights I like it .

Speaker 1 42:34

See you in a few weeks . Tammy , all right , half tights , I like it .

Speaker 2 42:37

See you in a few weeks , Tammy .

Speaker 1 42:38

All right , Bye Dash . Thank you .