Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
We Need to Talk About Cognitive Dissonance and Jewish Whiteness
In this episode of Ashamed to Admit (recorded prior to war breaking out between Israel and Iran) Tami and Dash unpack Lee Kofman’s essay about the phenomenon of Jews being perceived as white; the complexity, nuance and discomfort. Inspired by Tom Ben David’s piece for TJI, Dash reflects on the emotional gymnastics of holding two truths at once, while Tami recounts her surreal stay at Australia’s only kosher hotel. From Judea to St Kilda East, this conversation is full of tension, honesty and some much-needed laughter.
Articles mentioned in today’s episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/this-and-this-holding-contradictory-truths
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/am-i-white-im-not-sure
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
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Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
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LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Hey everyone, it's Tammy here. Today you'll hear an episode which Dash and I recorded a few weeks ago, before the war between Israel and Iran broke out, which is why there's no mention of that. There's also no mention of the ceasefire which was announced on Tuesday morning Australia time. So wherever you're listening from today, we hope that this episode makes you feel connected to your Jewish friends or family, and we hope it provides you with some respite from war-related content. It's still pretty Jew-y, though. You should know that. Please continue to take care of yourselves. We'll be back to regular programming next week and enjoy this episode, but struggling to keep up with the news cycle. If you answered yes, then you've come to the right place.
Speaker 2:I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and in this podcast series, your third cousin, tammy Sussman, and I call on experts and each other to address all the ignorant questions that you might be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. Ashamed to Admit. Hello everyone. I'm Dashiel Lawrence, executive Director at the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:And I'm former guest of Room 7 in Australia's only kosher lodging, Kimberley Gardens Hotel in St Kilda, East Melbourne, Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2:How was the hospitality at Australia's only kosher lodging, Tammy?
Speaker 1:Do you reckon Kimberley Gardens is Australia's only kosher hotel?
Speaker 2:I'd say so. I certainly aren't aware of any others in Melbourne, but if they are, they should use it as a part of their marketing, because it's a great hook.
Speaker 1:Because the massive menorah on all their marketing material isn't enough. I reckon it would have to be, because if there was one in Sydney I'd know about it, and I can't imagine that the other states and territories in Australia who have smaller Jewish populations would have one.
Speaker 2:No, no, you're definitely not going to find one in Hobart, or even Brisbane or Adelaide, for that matter.
Speaker 1:If there are any listeners out there who are a bit salty with us because they're like no wait, I'm in Darwin and I own a kosher hotel and we just don't know about it, please reach out.
Speaker 2:What makes it a kosher lodging?
Speaker 1:It's a really good question.
Speaker 2:I'm probably asking the wrong person, aren't I?
Speaker 1:What makes it a kosher lodging?
Speaker 2:You not exactly Kashrut Authority? Are you Tammy Sussman?
Speaker 1:I'm not. I'm going to assume that maybe it's got to do with those water urns that they have on Shabbat, so that guests don't have to boil water if they want tea. Mm-hmm. Yep mm-hmm yeah, kimberly gardens hotel in st kilda, east melbourne not sponsors of this show, probably won't be after I talk a little bit more about my experience there you didn't take the um complimentary mini shampoo and conditions, did you?
Speaker 1:they didn't have them, which is the most un-Jewish thing ever. There was none of that. They had everything in soap dispensers and they had the shampoo and conditioner in one.
Speaker 2:I cop that when I come up and visit you in Sydney, tammy, I stay at an establishment that has the soap in one of those little tightly packed containers bolted onto the wall for fear that someone's going to rip them off. Yeah, so it's just the way you've got to travel.
Speaker 1:No Dash, you don't have hair as a Jew. With messy, wavy hair. You can't survive on shampoo and conditioner mixed together. It's not going to cut it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the all-in-one, just the one big mixture that you've just got to squirt out.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:No, that's not good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and look, I understand that you couldn't come through with a pink Hummer as requested, and I don't want to seem ungrateful. I do appreciate the hospitality at Kimberley Gardens Kosher Hotel, St Kilda, East Melbourne. I'm just saying there were a few discrepancies between their website and what I actually got.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So when I went on their website, I noticed that there was wine, kosher wine, and two glasses oh that would have been nice. Yep, that would have been lovely and I didn't receive that. And I also saw that there were some bathrobes folded up quite nicely on the king-size bed.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Didn't see a bathrobe inside.
Speaker 2:Not even in the-.
Speaker 1:In the wardrobe In the wardrobe?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, you better believe.
Speaker 1:I went through that wardrobe.
Speaker 2:No little flip-flops.
Speaker 1:There were flip-flops.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:That's good. What am I supposed to use them for if I don't have a robe?
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:Okay, the website did show a sparkling clean pool and spa. I was quite excited to have a little bit of a dip prior to my Limud session.
Speaker 2:Uh-oh.
Speaker 1:The pool was covered in pool noodles. Oh, you know what that means when a pool is covered in pool noodles.
Speaker 2:No, what does it mean?
Speaker 1:It means that a few families have been in there. Oh, you don't want to get into a pool after a few families have been in there. There was a film of froth on top of the spa.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a spa. What do you expect?
Speaker 1:Did you listen to my episode with Shoshana Gottlieb? While you were away, we had a whole discussion about spa baths and the things that can live in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's going to be froth at the start, middle and the end. Look, I wouldn't be dipping into any spa baths. I don't like spas, so don't be too harsh on Australia's only kosher lodging with regard to the spa bath, Tammy, because I think those that venture into the spa they're only asking for trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, victim blaming, it's your own fault.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, just think twice before you step into any spa. Okay, yeah, go on. What else didn't meet your expectations?
Speaker 1:So I was chatting to Shoshana Gottlieb, former fill-in co-host of this show, Jewish Memes Only, and Shoshana said that she was joking with her fiancé that it couldn't possibly be a kosher hotel because there aren't soda streams in every room. My new girlfriend did come down to Melbourne with me.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:It was an eye-opening experience for her. It was her first foray into Jewish events.
Speaker 2:Wow, what a foray, what a place to introduce her to.
Speaker 1:Just throw her right into the deep end of the pool at Kimberley Gardens Hotel. Just a reminder to our listeners Dash isn't Jewish. I constantly have to remind them because it's assumed. Because you're the executive director at the Jewish Independent and you did a PhD in being Jew. That was the official title, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:No, it was another title, but let's go with that one for simplicity's sake.
Speaker 1:Being Jew, so Dash. When you first started dating Susie, what was the first Jewish thing that she brought you to?
Speaker 2:I think it was a Yom Kippur service.
Speaker 1:Seriously.
Speaker 2:No, it was Erev Yom Kippur. It wasn't the full yom kippur service, seriously, no, it was era of yom kippur it wasn't the full yom kippur service, it was era of yeah, era of.
Speaker 1:Yom kippur is in like just the meal that you have before you fast, or did she take you to a synagogue?
Speaker 2:no, is she talking to a synagogue? We went to the era of yom kippur. This the era of service, whatever that's called.
Speaker 1:Colney.
Speaker 2:Dre. Thank you, I'm sorry, is it Well?
Speaker 1:I'd be so proud of myself if that's actually right.
Speaker 2:I think isn't Colney Dre the oh no. No, you're right. Yes, it is Sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm so proud of myself, all right. Well, our situation is a little bit different, because you had done a PhD in being Jew before you met Susie, right, and you had Jewish friends and colleagues, and yeah. So my girlfriend hadn't really ever spent time with a Jewish person before she met me. So all my friends in Melbourne and in Sydney were having such a laugh about the fact that the first Jewish event that she was attending was not, like you know, something fun like Sheer Madness with Jewish music or, you know, shabbat dinner with friends and family. It was limut.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Session after session, lecture after lecture about Jewish identity and Torah and Talmud anti-Semitism. I do have to say, though, I was quite impressed that when I led her to Room 7 at the Kimberley Gardens Hotel, st Kilda East, she did clock that seven is a very meaningful number in Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:She'd done a bit of background reading.
Speaker 2:So it must be a highly sought-after room at the Kimberley Gardens Hotel, St Kilda East.
Speaker 1:It is because it's the most un-kosher room in the Kimberley Gardens Hotel, st Kilda East. It is because it's the most unkosher room in the Kimberley Gardens Hotel, st Kilda East. That's all I'm going to say about that. I'll leave the rest to your imagination. Dash, I'd like to thank you for your hospitality while I was down in Melbourne. It was really lovely to see you in the flesh, as opposed to behind a screen where we see each other every week.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for the ride on Saturday night to Dawn and Mabel Wine Bar in St Kilda.
Speaker 2:Yes, a very big hello, and thank you to Gull, who is a shame to admit listener.
Speaker 1:It was a real novel experience riding in the back seat of your car.
Speaker 2:You fit in though, didn't you? You made it work.
Speaker 1:In the booster seat.
Speaker 2:Possibly illegal. But hey, we had no other way of getting you there in the pouring rain. So, it's true, in the five-year-old's booster seat you went. Some would say that's where you belong.
Speaker 1:Some would say that's where I belong in the booster seat of the back seat of a car.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Fair enough.
Speaker 2:Some would say I wouldn't say that, but some might Still getting over the fact the fact, tammy, that you said no to my suggestion about having a little mid-afternoon tour of St Kilda. I'd love to conclude at the last remaining Jewish cake shop on Ackland Street. There are still a few cake shops there, but none as far as I'm aware are still owned and using traditional Jewish cakes made by a Jewish family, like is the case at Monarch Cake Shop, which is one of my favourites in Melbourne, still using, I think, the 120-year-old plus Polish recipe for cheesecake. Aw, you didn't want it. You didn't want to go and have a delicious slice of Polish cheesecake or babka or any number of other delicious treats.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to be bloated and have diarrhoea so close to our live recording of A Shame to Admit. And here's the thing I don't like going to cafes or restaurants if I know that there's nothing that I can eat or drink. I just feel so awkward sitting there. So you would have had a cake and would you have had coffee in the afternoon. Yep, really Yep. I can't have coffee after 12pm.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I've had a cake and late afternoon coffee there on many occasions, and I was looking forward to doing that with you and your new girlfriend Tammy, but it wasn't to be.
Speaker 1:She wouldn't have had the cake, it just would have been the two of us sitting there watching you have coffee.
Speaker 2:Eating my cake.
Speaker 1:You would have been comfortable with that.
Speaker 2:Sure your loss, not mine.
Speaker 1:Next time. I also didn't want to go to Monarch Cake Shop because it was raining and I wanted to be somewhere with better airflow because you had a cold. You got to see a different side of me.
Speaker 2:You mean your side that can't handle the remote possibility or risk of being contaminated and coming down with a cold.
Speaker 1:Yes, my extremely neurotic side.
Speaker 2:I sort of knew that you were on the neurotic spectrum, but didn't realise just how much that manifested itself with regard to colds.
Speaker 1:Especially in winter and especially as someone who is immunocompromised. So I've arrived back in Sydney with sinusitis. So thank you so much for.
Speaker 2:Oh, you think I gave you a cold.
Speaker 1:It could have been you. We'll never know, Dash.
Speaker 2:Could have been any number of those Melbourne yidden that you were hugging and kissing and fraternising with while you were in our fair city. So don't lay the blame on me, defensive much. I just want to say thank you so much to all of the lovely Ashamed to Admit listeners that came up to us over the course of the week and introduced themselves, said how much they love listening to the show and how it is not to be missed each week on their downloads. It was so nice to meet you all and to see some real-life fans in the flesh.
Speaker 1:So Dash, today we're having a little bit of a break from interviewing people, because we've just been having interview after interview, and at Limord we interviewed two rabbis. Today we're going back to the beginning, how this podcast started, which was just you and me in a studio together, bringing each other questions about Jewishness, the Jewish experience, Israel, anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2:The genesis of the show was that you wanted me to help translate some of the news, some of the things happening today in Israel and around the Jewish world, and you wanted to be freed of your shame about not knowing those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we eventually realised that you know one. I actually don't know as much as you think I do. I'm also learning as we go along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the idea was that you would also bring me questions about the Jewish experience that you were ashamed, that you didn't know about. But turns out you just didn't want to be vulnerable and admit to not knowing things, so that made that really hard. Today we'll try and do that.
Speaker 2:We can try and make up for that today. Tammy, I certainly don't anticipate I'm alone in this fairly careful about the amount of news that I am reading and processing in recent months, particularly with regard to Israel's ongoing war and the toll that it is having both on the people of Gaza and also on Israelis as well, and not to mention the sort of ongoing uncertainty about the hostages and whether they will ever be returned home. Look, it's been a very challenging couple of years for anyone who is Jewish, has a close relationship with Israel, and as well for those of us who work in Jewish organizations, for those who work in media outlets that are covering these sorts of events and goings on. You get to a point.
Speaker 2:you know it can get overwhelming and it can really weigh on you, and so I you know, I'm continuing to read, listen, engage, but not to probably the level that I have been that also it goes with what's going on in the united states as well. The way I've really had to sort of step back in the last few months from my consumption of us politics and just the total mess that is being made by the Trump administration.
Speaker 2:I've just you know, one has to be selective about what they listen to, and so yeah. So as a result, tammy, I can't come to this conversation ready to decode and break down the latest goings on in Israel. I'm aware that the Australian government has just announced sanctions against two Israeli ministers and also the cancellation of a visa for visiting Israeli speaker and online identity.
Speaker 1:I saw that because they consider him a threat to Australia's safety or that his safety would be threatened.
Speaker 2:I don't feel that there's really a lot of value in having me reflect on them.
Speaker 1:In having our commentary.
Speaker 2:No, adding our commentary to it. I don't. There is plenty of commentary out there on our website on the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Some analysis and some wraps up there this week and what I do want to talk about, if you want to discuss.
Speaker 2:I do articles that are on our website that have really resonated with me. We have a Look. It's not perfect, there are some flaws with it, but the overall thrust of the article really resonated with me. It's called this and this Holding Contradictory Truths by Israeli Tom Ben-David. This article I really appreciated last week. He essentially points out that there are seemingly many contradictory truths about Israel's war with Hamas and about the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts more generally. And yet too often the impulse on behalf of Israel's attackers and also its advocates and its supporters is to reduce things into binaries, reduce things into the black and white. You know the good and the evil, that either Israel can do no right or Israel can do no wrong, depending on which side you fall and that it's impossible to hold those two ideas at once. People are increasingly unable to hold competing truths at once, and yet, as this article explains at the very beginning, judaism has a long tradition of being open to and accepting what's called cognitive dissonance. Do you know what cognitive dissonance is? Tammy call cognitive dissonance. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:cognitive dissonance is Tammy. I've heard it being said so often in my WhatsApp groups, usually with people saying the cognitive dissonance it's just shocking, like there's usually negative undertones when talking about cognitive dissonance Potentially so.
Speaker 2:It's certainly something that has come up and I've heard it time and time again since October 7th. So it was a term developed, I understand, by an American Jewish psychologist, leon Festinger, in 1957. This concept in relation to the mental discomfort that human beings feel when they hold contradictory beliefs, values or attitudes at the same time, or when their attitudes don't align with their beliefs, and so he posited that this psychological tension creates an unpleasant feeling that motivates you to reduce that inconsistency. And some of the ways that you'll typically do that changing one of those conflicting beliefs or attitudes, adding new beliefs that justify the inconsistency, this one really in relation to the conflict we're talking about here, seeking information that supports one side while avoiding contradictory evidence. I think we see a hell of a lot of that these days, where people just cannot accept the cognitive dissonance, block out the contradictory evidence and, you know, rally in as much information as they can just to support their one-sided take on the conflicts. Clearly, as the author in this article points out, in the context of Israel's Hamas war, there are many truths that can exist all at once, just to give listeners a sense of Ben David's voice and the tone of the article Ben David writes. In the context of the Israel-Hamas war, there are many truths that exist all at once.
Speaker 2:The humanitarian situation in Gaza is bad and is deteriorating rapidly, and people, many of them innocent people, are suffering. And under international law, israel is not obliged to provide humanitarian aid to Gaza. And Israel should provide aid despite having no obligation, and humanitarian organizations are vehemently opposed to Israel being involved in aid distribution. And much of the aid entering Gaza is being looted by Hamas and wouldn't make it to the civilians who actually need it. And providing more aid would lower its prices and allow more aid to get to civilians. And supplying more aid would enrich and empower Hamas and merchant warlords in Gaza, enabling to sustain the war for longer. And the hostages must come home. And Hamas won't release the hostages without pressure on Gaza and continued fighting will further endanger the lives of the hostages and Netanyahu's treatment of the hostage families is callous and inexcusable. And many of those outraged by Netanyahu don't care about the hostages, and the people in Gaza are still suffering.
Speaker 1:Oh, powerful stuff.
Speaker 2:You get the flavour of this article. He really is trying to hold the very contradictory or paradoxical elements of the conflicts and trying to hold the two together and point to what are facts. There will be some people who will contest some of those statements, for sure, but there are certainly things all the way through in there that you cannot contest. It was really welcome to read this article because it's the way I, and I know there are people out there that feel that this conflict is all too often reduced down to black and whites, to binaries, and I think there are also, you know, thinking in a Jewish community context. I think there are some that believe that, acknowledging the suffering that Palestinians are currently experiencing, that Gazans are currently experiencing the depths of the humanitarian situation, that that is somehow playing into Israel's enemies and it's undermining its cause. And I just think that that's you know, that's it's undermining its cause and I just think that that's you know, that's it doesn't.
Speaker 2:it just actually makes you human that you can simultaneously believe that Israel has a right to defend itself and that there are limits to what that means, and the humanitarian situation in Gaza is unacceptable. And yeah, I thought this article, as I said, it's not perfect, there are flaws in it, there are things that you could and I'm sure people have picked out that don't quite work, but ultimately the general essence of what he is trying to say resonates for me and I think for others as well. I've noticed that there was a lot of positive feedback on our social media channels from some of our followers.
Speaker 1:Thanks for bringing that. I think, the concept of saying and instead of but, but is really helpful in context than just this conflict in the Middle East.
Speaker 1:Taking a leaf out of that book, I agree with everything you're saying and I know that there's a school of thought out there, represented by a lot of my Jewish friends' dads, who believe that there are enough people, enough people criticizing Israel, that the Jewish people need to not give any quote free kicks to those haters and therefore it's a responsibility to balance out all the criticism with advocacy. So I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them. I'm saying this is I'm just adding an and to that argument.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear that. I don't agree with it. I don't think this is a zero-sum game. I don't think that your acknowledgement of the suffering of Gazans means that that produces or you know is a point lost to Israel.
Speaker 1:Or a threat to Israel.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2:I can accept that others see it differently and that they feel that there needs to be some evening of the ledger or that it is the responsibility of Jewish people to be in solidarity with Israel during this time of war.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, well, listeners can read that article on the Jewish Independence website. We'll leave a link in the show notes. Today, dash, I am bringing an article to the table written by Lee Kaufman, who is an incredible Melbourne-based author and editor of eight books in Hebrew and in English. She's also a writing teacher and mentor. Earlier this month, lee Kaufman wrote a piece called Am I White? I'm Not Sure.
Speaker 1:Byline, whether Jews are white has little to do with our bodies and everything to do with the ideas society projects onto us, and this piece really resonated with me because it's an idea that's been on my mind for a long time, but especially since October 7 and particularly since our conversation with Ben M Freeman, which was all about Jewish indigeneity, which was a brilliant episode. We had so much great feedback on that. So if you're a new listener to this podcast, I highly recommend going back and listening to our interview with Ben M Freeman. So the main idea put forward by Lee Kaufman is really an exploration of the complex shifting relationships between Ashkenazi Jews, specifically, and whiteness, especially in the Australian context post-October 7. And what I gathered from that is that Lee was arguing that Jews are often considered white when it suits others, but we remain perpetual outsiders.
Speaker 2:So, Tammy, interested in your experience and how what Lee raises in the article has played out for you in your life growing up, did you feel that white as a young Jewish woman?
Speaker 1:It's so funny you ask that, and I didn't even plan to talk about this, it's just that this memory just popped up. I don't know at what age children start to think about the color of their skin and how that plays into social status or whatever, but I remember being in year six, so I was 11 years old, and I wanted to get a talent agent because I wanted to start being in ads or home and away. That was the dream at that age. And I went to see a potential representative and she asked me where I was born and I said Australia. And she asked me my nationality and I said Australian and she said but you're Jewish? And I said yeah, but that's my religion. At the time I went to a modern orthodox school and I did identify as being Jewish as a religion, and she insisted that that was my nationality and I didn't get it.
Speaker 1:All my life I've always been asked where are you from? And I've said Australia and they've said yeah, but where are you really from? And then at some point I'd say, okay, well, my grandparents were from Eastern Europe, they're Polish, so I'm Polish. And then I'd have people say but you don't look Polish Like. Where is your fair hair and your blue eyes, and I was like I don't understand what is going on. And it wasn't until much later in life that I realized that Ashkenazi Sephardi Mizrahi, ashkenazi Sephardi Mizrahi there is a Jewish look and that somehow that is linked to indigeneity to the land that is currently referred to as Israel, palestine. So I've never identified as white, and certainly when we had Holocaust education, the message was pretty clear that we weren't white enough. So that's why it's been particularly cutting when I hear people criticising Israel refer to Jews as white colonizers, because it's like I've never been white enough for you, but now, at this point in history, because it suits you, I'm suddenly white.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I think that part of Lee's article really really rang true for me. In her article, lee grapples with how Ashkenazi Jews are racially socially perceived in Australia, something else that she said I'm pulling this as a quote that they, the people projecting whiteness onto Jews. They argue that whiteness is not biology but a social construct that offers invisibility and privilege, and that's something that I personally, tammy, have never fully enjoyed. There's also this idea of normative whiteness and passing. So Lee Kaufman notes that in some ways she passes as white, but only until she starts speaking and her Russian, israeli accent betrays her identity.
Speaker 1:Now I have what many people would describe as an Australian accent, but my accent often betrays me because, also throughout my entire life, I've always been asked what's your accent and I've said it's an Australian accent, and they've said, no, it's not, and I've said, well, I don't know, is it maybe a little bit British? A few years ago someone said to me you have a Jewish accent, and I think what they meant because I am from Sydney and grew up not living but going to school and hanging around with people in the deep East is maybe I have an accent that has some South African influence, some Russian influence, that maybe there's some intonation that's a little bit Jewish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it doesn't mean that should be a signifier for everyone to assume everything about that person's life and their identity. And that's what you're saying, right? You're saying that it just flattens you all into one homogenous group.
Speaker 1:Exactly. That comes up again when Lee writes about the fact that this assumed white privilege is weaponized. So Jews are often excluded from diversity programs or denied social empathy because they are assumed to be white. And I would add so this is me, tammy, speaking. I would add that they're also assumed to be wealthy, which is a topic that you and I have debunked on this podcast in Season 1, so I encourage our listeners to go back and listen to that episode as well. Lee writes in our multicultural society, to designate Jews as white is actually yet another way to marginalise us, and this paradoxical narrative of Jewish white privilege goes on strong because the collective story shines brighter by outsourcing to us whatever Australia doesn't want to own oppression, greed and now alleged genocide Pretty powerful shit.
Speaker 1:Before I wrap up this bit Dash, I want to say that I really appreciated that Lee Kaufman acknowledged the Jews who were not born Jewish as well, because they're quite often left out of this narrative. So she addresses the fact that, genetically, all Jews are a distinct group that originated from the Middle East. Ashkenazim spent the last millennia in Europe and, while there has been some mixing with local populations, their genetic makeup remains different, resembling other Jews as well as Arabic North African populations, far more than their European neighbors. But how important is this? She writes not all people identifying as Jewish are genetically such. I think Ben M Freeman and my friends who've converted or who are in the process of conversion would be pleased to read that too. She says more so, when we talk about whiteness we don't really talk about biology, because whiteness has always been a multifaceted, fluid, contested social construct.
Speaker 1:You might even say, dash, that this topic is tendentious. Oh, it's unbalanced. No, it's not. It's not tendentious, it's contentious. I'll leave a link in the show notes to this article as well. I just want to say that Lee Kaufman gives the best exclamation mark. At the end of her piece, she said she still hasn't found the right words to describe herself. But there are three things she feels certain about. But there are three things she feels certain about. One, jews are a small minority, always marked as other. Two, she says she'd never call herself white. And three, it is not up to non-Jewish people to say who I am, and I couldn't have said it better myself.
Speaker 2:Well, this has been fun, Tammy. I've enjoyed this opportunity just to chat you, and I Chew the fat. We'll be back again next Tuesday, of course, with another episode of A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to. A Shame to Admit with me, Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2:And me, Dash Lawrence.
Speaker 1:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 2:If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate. Tell them it's nearly as enjoyable as a spa bath in Room 7 at Australia's only kosher hotel.
Speaker 1:You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or by emailing ashamed at the jewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2:As always, thanks for your support and look out for us next week. Thank you.