What does Judaism say about mental health, self-care & happiness?

What does Judaism say about mental health, self-care & happiness? Why are so many famous psychoanalysts and therapists Jewish? Did the Kings of Israel get stress-leave? Plus Tami has a Jewish quarter life crisis and Shoshana needs to get off the internet. 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway Productions 

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Transcript

Content Warning And Ground Rules

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This episode deals with some sensitive topics, including suicide. If you're not in the best headspace at the moment, you might want to skip this one.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Shame to ask, ashamed to admit, got dewy dewy questions. This is it, this is it. Why is wicked simple or unsure how to ask? We'll open up the books, the ark will open up your cynical heart. No such a thing as a dumb question. Okay, that's mostly true. Dami and Shoshan are here for you. Ashamed to admit.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Ashamed to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Welcome

Meet The Hosts And Catch Up

SPEAKER_02 0:45

to a shame to admit presented by the Jewish Independent. I'm Tammy Susmum, and with me is my co-host, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Just the hello.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Mouth on a chip. Mm-hmm. Hey. Tammy. Haven't seen you in so long. I know. Tell you a funny story.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So I'm at Limudas. Mm-hmm. The Festival of Jewish Learning. Yeah. There's like I think it's a Festival of Jewish idea. Mm-hmm. Anyway, sorry, let me just like get the trip out. It's like 10 minutes before it starts. And the only people who are like on time to Limud are of a certain generation above us.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Boomers.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

This lady makes eye contact with me, goes, Shoshana. She has a really familiar face. I'm going, fuck. I've met this lady before. I don't know who she is. She's greeted me like an old friend. I'm supposed to know who she is. And I'm like, hey, how are you? She's like, good. She's like, and then I said, like, I said something or other. She's like, do you know who I am? And I was like, I've I'm so sorry. I was like, I'm so, so sorry. I have to admit, I don't, but I'm really bad with faces and names. And she goes, Well, we haven't met before. And I was like, oh, like, what the fuck? And then I look at her face and she goes, but I'm someone's mum. And then I realized she looks familiar because you and her share a face.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

You are the first and only person who has ever said that my mum and I share a face.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

That's how I knew who she was straight. I was like, oh my god, that's Tammy's mum because they look the same except she's blonde. Anyway, and it was so funny. Because I'm like, that's the most Tammy thing. I'm just like what like like making someone shit scared that they're they're supposed to know. You know what I mean? It was a very like Tammy-esque sequence of events.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

That must happen to you all the time. People develop parasocial relationships with you, surely.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, but no, usually they're like much better at if I I did feel like she was, and I know she's gonna listen to this because she's Elizabeth. I did feel like she was playing mind games with me.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Okay. Like I felt like she was My Mum. First of all, I do not look like her. Second of all, she does not play mind games.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

She's like the most It felt like she was trying to trim it. It was like, I'm gonna make her think that like we know each other. My mum doesn't look like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

My mum doesn't think like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

But we do have the same voice, so that was also part probably part of it. Yeah. But I don't know, like similarities in the face. Maybe what we can do is we can like superimpose a picture of your mum right here. So like look at look down the camera, but hang on, I'll look into my camera.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Yeah. I'll take my glasses off. And then, like, if we put a photo of your mum like right there next to you. We've just given AJ some more work. That I reckon that's it. That's it. That's the that's the same. Okay.

Italy Wedding Trip And Rome Stops

SPEAKER_02 3:28

So I've been away. Yeah. Um cute story. Well, you weren't at Limor. Hang on. That's how I know. I wasn't at Limorde, yeah, because I was away. I was on a 30-hour flight back home. Funny though. We so we had a week off of filming. Of filming. Yes. And I got a text from one of our listeners just making sure that we're okay. Cute. Isn't that cute?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

That's nice. They thought we had like brogus or something.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

No, they thought we were unwell.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

I think brogus is more likely. Between you and I. We have we have like a like a um a Joan versus Betty style feud between us going on.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

You wish we did, because it would be good for the album. I went.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Rome.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

I went to Italy to officiate a wedding.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Did they get married? Are they still married?

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Two weeks later? Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's really good odds. Yeah. So interfaith couple, Jewish groom, non-Jewish bride from a lovely Christian family. Um Italian. She's Italian.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

And she likes Italian-Australian or she's Italian-Italian?

SPEAKER_02 4:37

She's Italian-Australian. Her dad is Italian-Italian. Um the two most loveliest families. I, you know, I don't get Ernest very often, but it was just impossible to not feel so lucky. Like it was just Gratitude Central, um, such an honour to be.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Is that an Italian hotel?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Such an honour.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

No gratitude central.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Did I say it was gratitude central? Yeah. So funny how I say things one minute. And then I think that's part of my problem. There's no filter and also no memory of what I say. Combination. Um, no, it was beautiful. Um, yeah, um it was a beautiful part of Italy, which I'm not going to name because I don't want anyone to go there. But then, of course, on the way back to the airport, I stopped off in Rome. Um, because that's where the the flights to and from were from. And because I'm in Rome, people told me you have to go see the Colosseum. I'm I don't know what you're like. I'm not a I'm not a what's it called? Landmark, like tourist girly. Uh-huh. I don't like cities. But I was like, I will go see the Colosseum because people will give me shit.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

I'm reserving my judgment before you finish the study.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Okay. And I'm like, I will go stand outside the Vatican just so I can. You might recall in a previous episode, my friend's dad was really upset that I didn't know what the Vatican was.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

You didn't know the Vatican.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

When I was we've talked about this, I didn't know you for this. I didn't know what the Vatican was when I was like 16, potentially 22. So I went to the Vatican, you know, had a photo outside the Vatican, the Vatican, and then everyone said you have to go to the Jewish quarter. Um, because it's amazing, and you gotta have deep-fried artichoke.

Jewish Quarter Confrontation And Aftershock

SPEAKER_02 6:30

And so I went to the Jewish quarter, and that is where I had what my funny friend calls my Jewish quarter life crisis.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Okay. Was it around artichoke?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

It wasn't around artichoke.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

So just for context, I'd woken up early. I had traveled from this other part of Italy to Rome. I'd been walking around for hours. I had blisters on my feet. I was exhausted. I was with my partner who is not Jewish. Yeah, that was lovely. Um, but we were both tired. She was very hungry. Um, we get to the Jewish quarter, and the first shop I go into is a jewellery shop. And I there's lots of highs and muck and dovids, and I thought I might buy something for my niece, her, but mitz was coming up later in the year. And I'm inside the shop and I they don't speak English, the jeweler. And I said, Do you speak Hebrew? And they said, No. I don't know why I asked that, because I don't. But no, I do know why I asked.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

You just wanted to judge them for it.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

I wanted to know if they were Jewish. I was, I had this sense of, is this legit, or are they setting up a kind of a kind of shop to profit off Jews, or are they really Jewish? And then I'm walking down the the main street of the Jewish quarter, and there's all the stickers of the people who died at Nova Festival and on October 7. I've never seen those stickers before. I know they're everywhere in Israel, not so much where I go in Sydney. Have you seen them in Sydney?

SPEAKER_01 8:12

No. Like at Jewish institutions, but not like out of the Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

We saw pictures of hostages. Yeah. Those were everywhere, but not the people who died. So I'm looking at them, getting quite emotional. And then I see that there's a tour guide, a tour group that's stopped outside the Jewish Museum. And I haven't paid to be part of this group, but I'm just eavesdropping.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

I know this is like a really like monumental story. That's my favorite way to travel. Okay. It's like accidentally eavesdropping on other tour groups. Right. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Accidentally eavesdropping, and the tour guide, he looks about 20, early 20s, blonde, not an Italian accent speaking English. Sounds Germanic, would you say? Is that I didn't hear it, but sure. No, I'm saying the word Germanic. Is that the word? Or scandy, I don't know. And I hear him talking, and I hear one member of the group, a woman, say to him, sorry, did you just say that the Jews in living in Rome now are rich? And this is what I heard. I heard him say, Well, if you live in this part of town, yeah, you kind of you have to be. And I spoke to some maids, and this is what they said. And then I my partner was kept walking, and I was like, I don't think I can be a part of this conversation. Now I kept walking, but I felt really uncomfortable about it. We keep walking, we stop outside the synagogue, and I see this woman from the tour group who asked the question, excuse me, is this what you just said? And she separated from the group. And I walked up to her and I said, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. But did you ask that question? She said, Yeah, I did. And I said, What did he say? Like, did he did he correct himself? She said, No, no, firstly, I'm Jewish. And I was like, Okay, I kind of maybe thought she was. And she said, I thought that was really anti-Semitic. And I said, Did you say something? And she said, No, I just didn't feel like I could. And I was like, Well, do you want me to say something? She was like, I I don't know, like it's up to you. And I was like, Well, fuck it. I'm so used to never saying anything. And so I walked up to the tour group. I was shaking.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

But I want to know what he what did he say to warrant her question? He had just made the flippant comment that Jews were well. Just wait. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

I walk up to the group, he's still speaking, and I said, I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I couldn't help but overhear a question that was asked before. And I think it's really important to note that if Jews are wealthy, if if you're perceived, your perception of the Jews as wealthy because they live in this part of town, you may not know that hundreds of years ago, when they bought property here, this town, this part of town wasn't necessarily expensive. And, you know, it's really disrespectful. That's a really disrespectful stereotype, especially to say that in the Jewish quarter, Jews just aren't these like mystical creatures that once lived here and don't anymore. We're real people. And I'm from Sydney, and you may have heard that there was a massacre in Sydney in December, and I'm like getting all fired up. He is looking at me like I am a piece of shit. And I'm looking around at the circle and I'm expecting sympathy. Everyone is looking at me like I am insane. A woman walks up to me, a different woman, and says, Excuse me, I am also Jewish. And he did give all that context. And in that moment, you are too young for this reference, but there was a show called Allie McBeal. I know Allie McBeal. Where dancing baby. Yeah, but when Allie put her foot in it, she would shrink into a tiny Ally and run away. All I wanted to do at one point. Firstly, I was pissed at that other lady who led me astray. Oh, yeah. And then this tool guide, okay, this is where he went wrong. He said, and that is why I am the one that's the tool guide, and the city of Rome has given me a permit to be the tool guide. And I was like, okay, bro, clearly I am traumatized. I'm having my quarter life crisis. And if it were me, I would have said, okay, in hindsight, this is what I wish I would have said. You all signed up for a tour of the Jewish quarter. And you know what you got for free? Some intergenerational trauma right here. Okay. It's a shame you don't ever think about it on the 30-hour flight back home. It's true, because in the moment, this is what I said. I said, thank you so much. You're doing a wonderful job. Goodbye. And then I said to my partner, quick, we need to walk, quick, walk away from the crowd, walk away from the crowd. I sat on a bench. I said, I need five minutes. I wept.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

I cried and cried and cried. I haven't cried like that since December 14. So it was obviously some shit that I had been like holding on to that I just hadn't processed until that moment. My partner, bless her, she gave me that five minutes. She came up to me. She leant down beside me and she said, Babe, can you possibly keep crying at the restaurant? Because this whole time while I'm having my Jewish trauma, she is just starving and just wanting to get to this.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Go go get a Snickers. Let you have your five give you a sixth minute minute, sixth, seventh minute. Go get a Mars bar. You're in Rome, go get a gelato.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Have you have you seen the show Too Much or heard of it? Lena Dunham's. Oh, it's like on my on my Okay, here's what you have to know.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Sky and I have only been watching RuPaul's Drag Race for the past like eight months. Alright. Like exclusively. So I have a lot of things on my list that I'm just yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

The reason why I'm mentioning that is because I haven't seen it, but my partner's watched it. And she said, in that, there's a scene where the woman who's too much, her boyfriend says to her, I really love you. Like, yes, you're too much. I really love you. I just wish there was just one day where you could just like just one day where we just have a break from the drama and the thing. And Ina, my partner, was like, Can we just have one day where you don't cry hysterically? Uh and a cost a little blonde man. Well, it became a joke for the rest of the time we were together. We'd walk past a tool group and she'd say to me, Look, a tool group, do you have anything you want to say to them? Anyway, trauma.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

I love that for you.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yeah, thank you so much. Trauma. How's

Social Media Break And Mental Health

SPEAKER_02 15:12

your mental health? Oh, you know, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I'm I'm like on a half social media break because I realized that it was really bad for me. Um and so I've got all of my social media apps in a hidden folder on my phone, and so I have to like intentionally go in and open them. Um and so it's cut down like some of the mindless scrolling that I do. A little bit. Like I was doing really, really well. I had a bit of a setback this past week, but like back on the bandwagon.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

So you took a break because you were noticing a decline? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

No, it's been really bad for a long time. And like um comment sections are horrendous. And I actually like don't need like that's not my business.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

You didn't strike me as the type to read comment sections.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Oh, always you have to know what people are saying. It's like part of my job to know what anti-Semitism looks like because I have to teach it to people. Um yeah, it's real bad. And so I just kind of like took myself out of that for a little bit. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Notice a difference? Yeah, a little bit. I should say when I was in Italy, for the whole time I was away I was away, I did not go on social media. Made a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I'm doing like it's like coupled with other things, right? So I'm like less on my phone, I'm trying to be less on my phone in general. Um, I'm cooking more, I'm reading more, and like trying to do like other things that um fill my tank. You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Okay, well, the reason why we're talking about Okay, well, okay, well, the reason why we're talking about this, and I know that I told a somewhat humorous story that was inherently like quite upsetting.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Is because I do use humor to diffuse pain and trauma. It doesn't. A lot of people.

How We Read Mental Health Into Text

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Freaks. Um I guess because today's episode we are focusing on Jews in therapy or mental health, or what does what do the text say about mental illness?

SPEAKER_01 17:11

I do think we should preface this by saying that like we are not experts in the field. Yeah. And if anything comes across as um advice, it's not. Okay. It's like like it's not. It's just reporting live from Jewish text.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

It's just a discussion of what has been written in the Jewish text. Yeah, not advice. Um where do we begin?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Okay, so I I do my little deep dive, I go on my sites. I like first it okay, so here's a peek behind the curtain at my process. First, I come up with some notes of like things I know off the top of my head. Then I go and I find sources that either corroborate it because like it's something I heard too long ago and to make sure that I remembered correctly, or like do some other research, and then find after that things I might not have heard of before, so on and so forth, and like actual research. Um and so that's what I did. I like started with the Torah and Tanach of like stories that I could think in my head were like clear cases of uh I would say like proto-mental health kind of storytelling. Um but I think before I get into it, I and this is a broader context or broader story, I don't believe in putting labels on past figures. So I don't like it when someone's like Abraham Lincoln was a bisexual twink because well you don't know what Abraham Lincoln was like in his personal life, right? But I think like I think there's a difference between, and especially with the Torah and Tanakh, of like these are stories about human people. Um, and part of the human experience is like anguish and struggle with mental health. And so I think being able to read yourself or read situations into text is really important, or reading our our contemporary understanding of mental health into certain stories is really helpful, both for our understanding of ourselves in relation to text, but also in terms of understanding the text in a new light. Um, but I never like diagnose people with anything, and I think like that's and like I like I'm not gonna say like King Saul was bipolar because like I don't think that's particularly helpful in any way, shape, or form. Even though some people do that, like if it flirts your boat, whatever, but like I don't like that kind of thing. Um

Rivka’s Pregnancy Anguish And Family Dynamics

SPEAKER_01 19:24

so the first story I could think of of mental anguish or some kind of mental health thing um is the story of Rifka, who is pregnant. And I and I know I'm definitely not the first person to say this, but like a kind of like antenatal depression of like hating being pregnant and hating her experience. She's pregnant with twins and she's having a really rough pregnancy, and so she goes to God and says this phrase that's a bit ambiguous, but she's like, if I'm like this, why am I? She's like, Why am I alive, essentially? Wow, and seemingly like you know, so like dis has so much discomfort in her pregnancy and like has to turn to God for that guidance, and that's when God's like, you know, there's two twins inside you, and they're two different nations, and they're struggling together and like fighting each other, and they'll be the fathers of the whatever. Um and then she has the the babies and they're who were they by the way? Oh, um, um Yaqov and Aesov, Jacob and Esau.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

They're Rivkas Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Okay. Yeah. Um, but what's really interesting is that her oldest son she like doesn't like. She favors one of she favors the younger son, Jacob, and her husband favors the older son. Which that makes a bit more sense to me to favour the oldest in a patriarchal society makes sense. And also they're just like one's described as a hunter-gatherer, and the other one's described as, you know, a man of the tents, and it's a bit more effeminate, and he's like learned. And so, like, that kind of patriarchal father um favoritism makes sense to me. But what I think is really interesting is the mother's favoritism. And I think there's lots being written about how um difficult pregnancies or depression during pregnancies really can affect a mother's relationship with her child. Yeah. And so that was the really the first thing I thought of of like, well, here's a story where we can read modern context onto this character. Um and then there's a couple of stories that are a bit more like classically, like, here's a mental health thing. Okay. One of

King Saul Depression And Music As Relief

SPEAKER_01 21:23

them is King Saul. Have you heard of King Saul?

SPEAKER_02 21:25

I've heard of him, yeah. Do you know anything about him? Different to not King Solomon, not King David.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Well, he has a different name.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

King Saul. Some people might think it was short for Solomon, like Saul. No, I like the name Saul, though, but what was his vibe? So he was the king before David.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Uh-huh. Um, and then David kind of takes over from him. They're both chosen by God, it's a whole thing. Anyway. Um, he's described as having this evil spirit come upon him and like affect and he was like scared of it, um, and it would affect his mood. Um and the cure for that is that he hired David, who would laid a King David as a lyre player, like to play music for him to calm him down in his palace. Um, and so that's a very classic thing of people saying, you know, that that that like again, I I think it's really interesting that the words and the language that texts old texts use to try to describe human condition, right? Because it's not just he was sad, it's that there was this spirit that would come over him, and specifically it was like a an evil spirit of God, right? So this was a uh something inflicted on him by a divine source. Like that's how deeply horrible it was for him.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Um, but then what was also really interesting is that because I was like looking this up, trying to remember if I had learned that randomly or like if there's actual proof, I found a um a secular psychologist who wrote a paper that disc it discusses King's soul in the Bible. It says, um, provides a good example of a man suffering from depression and fits with current scientific understanding of the role of work-related stress as a determinant of depression. And so they have they analyze his story through this job stress model that is like a contemporary thing of like, well, he he's in a high stress work environment being the king of Israel.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

The first king of Israel at that, and fighting, you know, the Philistines and having to deal with God, all of this stuff, and how that translates into his depressive episodes. Um, I yeah, I just thought it was cool.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

That's excellent.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah, yeah. I didn't read it, I just yeah, yeah, found it and was like, haha, nice.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Thumbs up.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Okay, so that's figures.

Elijah In The Wilderness And Nature

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Um, and I should say we will talk about self-care at some point. This is not just an episode about here is a little people who there's other figures.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

There's like, again, it's like lots of like really classic stories of like Eliahu Hanavi, right? The but the character in the Tanakh before he started turning up at um Pesach and Brisses. Yeah. Yeah, before that, he was just a guy. He was just a guy. Before he was a uh Pippi wine ghost, he was a prophet.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

In the Tanakh. Yeah, and um, and he has this whole story of like trying to stop the Jews from doing idol worship and kind of fails at it and then goes into the wilderness and asks God to kill him because he's like, I failed at my job, and like like, you know, like just take me away from it. Yeah, worthlessness, feelings of worthlessness. Yeah, it's interesting stuff. Again, a lot of it, I think, work-related stresses enough.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Or yeah, feeling like you have no purpose or you failed at something.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah, like your one job.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah, you're tying your whole identity to one thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah. And then God, like, kind of tries to bring him out of it and and convince him otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Okay. Yeah. Do you know how God does that?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah, it's like my favorite story. So God like tells him to walk in the wilderness for 40 days.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

So connect with nature, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And he comes to a mountaintop to this cave, and he asks God again to kill him. And then God says, Go outside and I'll show you a vision. And so he walks like out of this cave onto this mountaintop. And it's this whole thing of it's like, um, and there was a gr a great wind came, but God was not in the wind. And after the wind, there was a great earthquake, but God was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake, there was a fire, but God was not in the fire. And after the fire, there was a thin still sound. And then that's the end of the vision. And so it's like, it's just like a really beautiful piece of of I think what I think is poetry, yeah, in the in the Tanakh, of like um of of reconceptualizing who and what God is, um, and also what I think achieving connection with God looks like. It's not in these big moments of like miraculous wonder, but it's in those like the moments afterwards, those silences. I think we spoke about it maybe on the podcast like on our original podcast. Our original podcast.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

That's where I put my hand up because I was like, that is yeah, that was what you, that's how you got me to believe in God. Yes. In those still silent moments. But I also think through the lens of mental health, I think, yeah, when you go out there and you reconnect to nature.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah, go on a walk. Literally, hoggo walk.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Like I hate saying just go for a walk, but I mean like when you take that actual time out.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Investing in physical health, I think is an underrated part of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

I mean just not walking around a city. I know that this is a thing of like privilege and whatever, but if you can remove yourself from one environment and spend time in nature for more than that 45 minutes. Woo-woo for me. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

All right. It's a thing, it's it's like a Hasidic thing. Hit bottodor. Like you go out into nature and you like meditate like in silence, but in the natural world. I'm just like, it's fine. Like it's a tree, a tree is a tree.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

You know?

SPEAKER_02 26:51

You've mentioned Shabtai Tsvi in a different episode about the Messiah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah. Oh my god, sorry, that was a really loud vibration from my own. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

So it was Shab Tai Tsve from the grave. Yeah. Um, so we won't be spooky. We won't get into Shabtai Tsvi in this episode, but if you're curious, go back and listen to the episode

Happiness Ideologies And Toxic Positivity

SPEAKER_02 27:09

that we did about Moshiach, the Messiah.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah. I think what happens a lot is that like you have these really, especially with Shabtai Tsvi, which is like a more medieval history, right? Like the 1600s-ish. Yeah. 1500s, 1600s. Anyway, it's a more you have these really big figures who are like strange, right? In quotation marks. And these big personalities who are super charismatic, but then are also like a bit batch it. And again, in our current understanding and sensibilities of how mental health works, people like to try and diagnose him of someone who has really big highs and really big lows, and also like thinks that he's connected to God in this way and is and is being um his delusions are getting fed into by some of his supporters. So, like, people like to diagnose him a lot because he did some cuckoo banana stuff that just is different to normality.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

And you've said that there are rabbis who have whole ideologies built around happiness and trying to escape sadness.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, like we have, like, I'm sure you've seen like the what we call like the Nanach Jews, right? And they have like their white kipot and they follow Rabbi Nachman. No? Um I know the song Rabbi Nachman. So that rabbi, right? So he has lots of followers who their entire Hasidic ideology is like is you connect through God through happiness and dance and and celebration. And I do think a lot of I do think a lot of people connect to that because they are trying to escape something like you know, a bit more like the sadnesses within them. And so you focus like wholeheartedly on toxic positivity. That's and again, that's my opinion of it. And I don't think it should be always taken that way, but I do think there is something about like I don't know, and then like you've got the Babatre who said, you know, think good and it will be good, trust good, but sign good. Like, there's a lot of this this positive mind framing um in order to see the world in a good way. But like that's there's a few different rabbis who do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Good for them, not for me. I just have to say that there are some lovely people I have met in my 39 years on this planet.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

You're 39.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

When you turn 40. March. What date in March? 31st.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Oh my god, that's really close to my mom's birthday. Um who's also turning 40.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

I cannot develop close relationships with people who are just all happiness. I need some real dark shit in there.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I I think I just like I have a certain level of distrust of some of those kinds of people. Okay. Because I'm like, it's not good all the time. Yeah. And like actually it's not helpful to always focus. There's just a level of cynicism I think that I have in my life. And I also think of like, have you been to Tzvat?

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Okay, so I think Tzvat is a city full of people who are like escaping something and have found different forms of like orthodox life and then like clung to that to escape their past. But like the happiness and the rigor with which they approach their Jewish lives are a very clear facade that hides again. This is all my opinion, but like hides a deep sadness, I think, or a deep something. And do you think that deep sadness always catches up to them? I don't know. I think like if you they again you you'd think it'll be good, like I don't know what it is, but I envy that. But I really like I think that there's like a certain level of Yeah, of inauthicity when I inauthenticity. Yeah. When I when I have to interact with those people.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Right. I'm envious. I wish that there was a way that I could just escape the sadness.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

So my friend, my friend Simone talks about she wishes she was stupider because she thinks stupid people don't have as much worries in life. I agree. Um, and she wishes that she like didn't have as much cognitive power as she does, because then she wouldn't worry about the world. Yeah. Which I think is really funny.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

I think that's funny, and it's spot on. Um, when I say how are you to someone and they go, Oh, pretty good, can't complain. I follow that with, yes, you absolutely can, especially to me. I won't even hear your complaint.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

I say can't complain because no one will listen, which I think is a good one. It's like an old man joke, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Or can't complain because then I'm the downer. I'm I think one of my superpowers is that I am a downer with the ability to uplift others. You know, there are downers that bring other people down.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Right. It's like it's like a superhero ability of like you give your powers to others. Maybe that's what I'm doing. Yeah. Or I say the I'll say can't complain. Well, I could, but I won't.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

So Latin. Yeah. Um, okay, so these people who follow Rama Nachma Nomaya, is he still alive?

unknown 32:02

No.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Um I like that you switched into Numanuma for the second half of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Did the Eurovision song take their tune or did they take the Eurovision song?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Absolutely took the Numanuma tune.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Okay. So they're part of a community. I feel like even if you you don't follow Rabbi Nachman, even if you're not necessarily from or religious, maybe you're a little bit more like me, culturally affiliated, but still very Jewish and still very much in a community.

Community As A Guardrail Against Loneliness

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah. You've said that Judaism being built around community is literally the cure to the loneliness ethical. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

I was just I was just riffing thoughts. Yeah. Um, I think that so much of Jewish life is built around communal involvement, right? We go to Shaol, um, and even if you're not religious and you go just for the kiddish, or your parents know that it's important to be congregant, so you go once a year for Rosh Hashanah Yom Kippur, whatever it is. Um, I think that to be Jewish is to be in community. It's really hard to be a Jewish and isolated from anyone else around you. Like it's supposed to be a shared experience. Um and that's the same with having kosher standards, right? So that I can have my friends who keep kosher come to my house, things like that. Like we're supposed to be sharing food, we're supposed to be sharing ideas and learning together and just being around each other. And I think part of the loneliness epidemic, if I'm like diagnosing it, is that people don't have communities anymore and they don't have third spaces where they gather with people who aren't the same age as them or their parents' friends or things like that. And I think that like when you're doing Judaism properly, like you can't it's impossible to be that like that guy in a basement, you know, who's kind of becoming an incel. Like, I think there are definitely Jewish incels, don't get me wrong. Um, but I do think that the communal point of Judaism is a is a guardrail against the loneliness epidemic. Yeah. Um at least it should be.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah, and that third space, the internet does not count.

Suicide Stigma And Evolving Jewish Practice

SPEAKER_01 34:14

No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Really like to address the fact that when I was young, maybe when you were younger, I don't know if you were fed the same narrative that if you die by suicide, you cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Um something that I think might have been true a long time ago, because um there's commandments against taking your own life. But again, as our understanding of mental health has evolved, and our understanding that mental health and illness is like a physical health and illness, right? And that just like we can't control if we are diagnosed with cancer, we can't control depression and literally like um the chemical imbalances in our brains, we like you you will get buried in a in a Jewish cemetery. Like that's a that's not a thing anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Same with tattoos, I hear.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

I think so. Yeah. I will say that there's still like the thing with mental health, right, is that like our oh my god, our sort of sensitivities towards it in the secular world are still evolving and changing, right? And like there are still so many people who again who aren't Jewish and who also treat it weirdly, and they're like and so it's still stigma, exactly. And so that's not specific to the Jewish world, but there is still like a lot of stigma around suicide in the Jewish world, and often when you find out that someone in the community has died and they don't say what it is, you can figure it out. Yeah. But the fact that they don't call it what it is, I think speaks to that the stigma, but like the sadness around it as well. And like usually it's young people, like it's kind of that thing of like if you've heard that someone young has died and they don't say what it was, you you can put the pieces together.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Um, but I think it's like it's important to give it a name and to talk about it. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm not inventing reinventing the wheel, but like yeah. Um but I but yeah, I think and I think that people give the Jewish community a particularly hard go about being having lots of stigma around mental health. But I think that again, it's like it's not even that we're catching up to the to the secular world, it's like we're at the same places and this idea around like the chief rabbi of the Commonwealth uh almost 10 years ago now released a thing saying basically that we have to make our schools a safe space for teenagers who are queer or LGBT or whatever it is, um, for Pikuach Nefesh reasons, because young or like to the sanctity of life, right? That young, queer individuals um have much higher um suicide ideation rates, much higher mental health and depression rates. Um, and that to give them safe environments and to be welcoming and to be accepting of them is literally saving their life.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Right. And so like that's happening in the world, which is amazing. And that's happening in the in the modern Orthodox world, which is amazing. But then on the other hand, you do still have like conversion therapy in some ultra-Orthodox communities. But again, that's also happening in non-Jewish communities. Like it's one of those things of like, I think it's just us talking about it within a Jewish context, but it's it's not specific to the Jewish world.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Do

Neurosis Stereotypes OCD And Jewish Psychologists

SPEAKER_02 37:35

you know what else the Jewish world gets a lot of grief for?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

What?

SPEAKER_02 37:39

For apparently being neurotic or having more mental illness than the average population.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

And wouldn't you guess? Uh-huh, I found studies that they've that they've actually done that kind of don't prove that. And so, like in the 90s, they were doing like I I think looking at different community types and sizes, and basically Jews don't have high rates of of anxiety and mental health. Um, but there is also a really interesting study between religious fervor and observance and like OCD and that kind of like um the obsessive compulsion and things like that, um, which I think is super interesting.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Is there an overlap? Well, no, it's trying to like discern between the two. And I think the thing is that um your religious practice shouldn't bring you like physical pain and like anguish the same way that obsessive thoughts often do. Okay. Right? It shouldn't be like like I think I brought the words. Um true OCD sufferers carry heavy stress and emotional burdens in their focus on strictly uh strictly observing things, um, and demonstrate an extreme inflexibility that makes it difficult for them to violate commandments even when religiously obliged to do so. And I think that's like how you can sort of discern between the two.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Okay. So it's just about being self-aware and recognizing when maybe it's slipping into something that's again.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

I'm I'm not giving advice because I'm just reporting what I've read. Yeah. I also think it's important to say like Jews are overwhelmingly represented in like the study of psychology and the development of psychology. Um Freud. Freud. Um, I found out that Maslow of like the hierarchy of needs.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Jew. Um Mr. Perel. Yeah, Victor Frankel, Orna, Dr. Orna. Of course. On couples therapy. Yeah. And then my favorite one is that when you do, like when you're studying education, they always reference Lev Vygotsky. Um, and I'm like Lev and Vygotsky, those are Jewish names, and he's like this little Jewish boy who is like fundamental in the understanding of child development and child psychology.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Um, so you're like funnily like overrepresented in that kind of yeah, which maybe is where that the the neuroses thing comes from as well. Just because we're interested in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Um but I don't know, who knows?

A Prayer For Overcoming Anxiety

SPEAKER_02 39:52

There's even a prayer for overcoming anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yeah, I found I thought this was really cool. I didn't know that. So I had also never heard of it, but it's like in a Hasidic text I found.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

In a Hasidic text.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah, I can't remember who wrote it, but it's um it's just are we gonna read it or should we just like it?

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Yeah, so for anyone tuning in for the first time, Hasidic is like ultra-orthodox.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

It's like it's connected to um kabbalistic connection and ideas as well. So it's ultra-orthodox, but it's also like about tapping into spiritual spirituality rather than just intellectual Jewish growth. Anyway, so then I found this and it says, Dear God, rescue me from the toil of my hands, nullify all my depression, worries, and anxiety, particularly my worries concerning earning a living. Which, again, like this is very sincere, and I think it's beautiful that I could find this, but I think it's really funny that like clearly a lot of people's anxiety and depression is coming from a cost of living crisis even back in the day. Um, because of my many sins and evil desires, my heart is overcome with heaviness, depression, and anxiety, and earning a living has become a difficult burden. As a result, the spirit of my heart has closed down so that its pulse cannot radiate properly through my limbs. As a result, my hands and limbs have grown heavy, and because of that heaviness, the spirit of my heart grows weaker, um, grows ever weaker until my depression leads to so much happiness, um, heaviness, weakness, and a sealed heart that I'm close to heath, to death. Heaven forbid, there is but a step between me and death. And it's just like, no, it's just like I think giving voice to anxiety and sadness, but also again, coding it in a religious language and um the same way we pray for people to physically get better. This is someone praying for themselves to get mentally and emotionally better. Wow. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Um, for those of you who struggle with the speed at which Shoshana is down. Come on. I was gonna say, you can slow that. You can put it in the show notes. Like we can. We can just put it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Go to Safaria, type in prayer for overcoming anxiety. Okay. That's a free shout-out to Safaria because I love them so much.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

All right.

Stop Feeding Outrage Online

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Do we skip shame in the shuttle today?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Um, yeah, we're already really over, hey. Yeah. Is this? I would just say, instead of shame in the shuttle, how about this? Because I've spoken about um the internet as a cause of mental health anguish already, I will say if you find yourself in a Facebook group um scrolling through it and getting angry, instead of commenting about your anger and and adding to the problem of what I can only describe as our entire community going through some um anger, fear event together, instead of feeding into that urgent impulse, just turn off your phone. Just look, close the app, stop getting angry all the time. Social media is designed, like the algorithms are designed to anger you. Yes, because your anger gives them money.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

So instead of like literally lining billionaires' pockets with your righteous anger, go touch some grass. Literally go touch some grass. That's the nature part of it, right? Like, like I and I think that that we're not gonna give in to shame in the sheddle today.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Yeah. We're leading by example today.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Just go outside. Okay, go outside. Jews of insert city in a country, in a in a town, in a town, in the world. Just go outside. Just stop posting, stop being angry on the internet. On the internet. Yeah. Go punch a wall. Like at least, like, at least get it out physically. Yeah. Like you're not doing anyone any good by sitting like angry thumbs. Like, that's not Don't punch a wall.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Punch a pillow. Scream into a pillow.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Whatever it is, I think, yeah. Don't just stop adding to the cycle of of anger and fear that we keep finding ourselves in you guys. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's it. Well, what a what an upper of an episode this has been. Everyone's on their way to work listening with beaming smiles on their faces. We put if maybe we should add at the top of the episode, like, listen to this on your way home.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Oh, like on the way back from work.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Don't go into your work day listening to this episode.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

You're welcome. I think the where at the intro where it says we're discussing, you know, sensitive topics. Maybe this is not for you. Okay.

Wrap Up And Listener Callouts

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Alright. That's it for today's show. If you've been watching or listening to Ashamed to Admit with Shoshana Gottlieb Becker and me, Tammy Sussman.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

This episode was brought to you by the Jewish Independent, also known as the G Independent with Aliway Productions.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

If you enjoyed this episode, share it around and give it a positive review. And remember to check out the other shows by the Jewish Independent, like Politica.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

How do you how do you pronounce the U when it has a Sharon?

SPEAKER_02 44:39

That's why I did it like that, so you knew it wasn't Sharon.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Presented by Sharon Offenberger and your Val Regev, Politica, is a conversation about Israeli politics aimed at confused diaspora audiences. That's us. Confused diaspora audiences.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Israeli political life is famously complicated, but it's an election year, so it's about time you understood what's happening and why it matters.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Thank you so much for joining us, you guys. If you liked this episode, let us know. It's important you say this part. I'll say it, I'll get there. Okay, sorry. But I'm just saying, thank you so much for listening. Um, if you enjoy, leave a comment, share it around, write into the ginder pendant and let them know that you love it. And we'll see you next week, which is our second last episode of season four.

unknown 45:29

Nice!