S2 Ep 9: A Witch’s Ally: Land, Magic & Punk Spirit with Dodie Graham McKay

 In this episode of That Pennsylvania Witch, I sit down with Dodie Graham McKay to talk about her new oracle deck A Witch’s Ally, the power of connecting to the land, and the creative magic behind her zine work. We also explore how once you’re punk, you’re always punk, and how that ethos shapes her practice. The deck features stunning illustrations by Laura Tempest Zakroff.  

Dodie Graham McKay (she/her) is a writer, Green Witch, and filmmaker. She is inspired to document and share stories that capture the beauty of nature and the visible and invisible realms of magic and witchcraft. She is the author of the books Earth Magic: The Elements of Witchcraft and A Witch's Ally: Building a Magical Relationship with Familiars & Animal Companions, and her documentary films include The WinniPagans, Starry Nights, and the Fibe TV four-part series Exploring the Sacred. Dodie spends her spare time walking her dogs, teaching witchcraft, and facilitating a busy coven. She lives in Treaty One Territory, Homeland of the Métis Nation, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. 

Dodie's Links:

https://www.dodiegrahammckay.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:17

On today's episode of That Pennsylvania Witch Podcast, I get to interview author Dodie Graham McKay. Dodie recently published A Witch's Ally Oracle, and the illustrations of this deck were done by Laura Tempest Sakroff. The art is amazing and the imagery is beautiful. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you so much for coming on today, Dodie. It's nice to have you. It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

I have your newest creation here. This deck is mind-blowingly beautiful. When I was at the Sacred Space Conference just this past week, I happened to see the original versions of the art because Laura Tempest Sakharov was there and even more incredible in person. What inspired you to bring a witch's ally oracle into the world? Insomnia.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Well, I wrote a book called A Witch's Ally. And Laura and I are always talking back and forth about ways we can do things together. I was laying in bed one night thinking, I really wish I could fall asleep, and thinking about the book which had just come out. It kind of made me think, because Laura and I had been talking about doing some kind of card-related collaboration. I thought, you know, which witches Ally as a book is such a good foundation for an Oracle deck. And I've been really slow to come on board with Oracle decks. It's a great idea, but a lot of the types of Oracle decks that were out there just weren't for me. But I've been noticing that over the last maybe five to eight years, there's been just so many cool Oracle decks coming out and like really witchcraft related and you know captivating artwork, interesting themes. So I got up in the middle of the night and I wandered across the hall into this office where I'm sitting right now, and I sent Laura uh an email saying, Hey, do you think maybe you'd be interested in collaborating on an Oracle deck project based on my book? And by the time I got up in the morning and checked my emails over coffee, Laura had already emailed back with an enthusiastic yes. So off we went. And it's just been an absolute dream project, like with the best collaborator.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, Judy, I have to say, I'm I'm more of a Ronestone, um, you know, traditional riderweight tarot person, but every once in a while there is an Oracle deck that just blows me away. And I can't, the first card I opened it to was Badger. Badger. Oh my gosh, it's absolutely beautiful because not only is the artwork incredible, it it looks alive, it feels alive. Laura created a sigil for each for each card, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah. And they were they were uniquely created for the deck. She wasn't recycling old sigils. And, you know, it's part of what makes Laura so extraordinary is that she can just generate art and creativity so so freely as breathing, you know? Yeah, I love the the sigils. You can take the sigils out of the deck and you know, translate them into other types of magical work you might be doing. And they're a portable tool, you know. If you like working with Badger, maybe you're gonna carve a candle or doodle that sigil on a piece of paper or work it somehow into the spell working you might be doing outside of working with the actual deck itself. So pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

It is really cool. I mean, and this isn't your only project, of course. You said that this deck was inspired by your book, A Witch's Ally. And then, of course, before that you published Earth Magic. I think it's elements of witchcraft, like the cover art on Earth Magic is incredible, they're really great. You have a zine too. Isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Zine.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Zine. Oh my gosh, I'm so listening.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Well, I was obsessed with the whole idea of like these little self-published, like mini magazines. I like to say no mega, just zine. Um because I'm cheesy. But uh yeah, I was obsessed with them back in the day, my punk rock days in the late 80s, early 90s. People, lots of my friends were publishing music-based zines, you know, and like photocopying them and then cutting them and stapling them and selling them at punk rock shows or at record stores or whatever. And I always really wanted to do one. I just thought it was cool. And again, middle of the night inspiration hit. And I I'm working on another book right now about Green Witchcraft. And I thought, you know, maybe I could get some of these ideas out in like small doses if I if I did like a little witchy zine. And that's what Deep Green Zine is. And you know, I I just had, I thought I was nuts with the first one. I had 250 printed, and I thought, well, these will last me the rest of my life. Maybe I'll use them as toilet paper someday. But no, uh, they're selling really well. People love them. And uh they're cute. They're really cute little mini magazines. I sell them off my website. They're something I can easily mail, you know, even if you're in the States, I can just throw one in an envelope. It looks like a birthday card. It's kind of covert. But yeah, they're really fun. And it's how I it's how I keep my brain juicy between books and get ideas out in small doses and stay writing and stay, you know, keep my chops up.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

So it's funny because I don't think I've ever said the word out loud, but we did publish little mini zines um when I was in college, subversive things. I was also a punk. I don't think you ever really transitioned out of that if you've ever had that face. No, no, not a chance. Yeah, yeah. But you collaborated with with Laura Tempest Sakuroff on this deck. And I know that we already talked a little bit about how her creativity and yours kind of melded together to create this vision or energy. But were there any aha moments or insights that emerged uniquely from working together with Laura? By the way, I'm also jealous because I fangirl over Laura all the time.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

So you know, I think if I'm gonna put uh maybe not put words in Laura's mouth, but maybe quote her on something, she, you know, she likes to do art. So she got the opportunity to do a deck and just in just immerse herself in the creation of the art. And I got to be a part of a deck without, and I'm not an artist, I'm not a visual artist person. And I got to really deep dive into doing the research for the companion book. And it's 48 cards, 48 animals, and that's 48 individual research projects to learn about the natural history of the animal and the folkloric history of the ant, to come up with the title of the card, the keywords for the card. And then for each card, I did three tarot readings um to divine what the messages from that animal might be. So, and I'll correct myself, I didn't just use tarot tarot, I used uh a riderweight tarot, I used the line strider tarot, and I used my favorite tarot deck the most, actually, which is the Glastonbury Tarot by Lisa Tenzendolma. So, and then I used Laura's Liminal Spirits Oracle to also get those readings. So 48 cards, 48 research projects, times three tarot or oracle readings per card to get the messages. It was a major project, but I got to just immerse myself in it. It was a treat. You know, it was uh kind of pushed the limits of the type of writing I've done before. My aha moment was like, hey, I can do this.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

I was telling one of my friends, I got this deck in the mail to review, and I opened it. And of course, again, I opened it to Badger, which is coincidentally what I call my friend that I was on the phone with. I call her my um my gorgeous, intelligent European Badger. And lo and behold, I opened to that card, but they feel they feel tangible, they feel like egregors. Each card feels like it is living and breathing. And I really appreciate that, especially during your process. And I mean, they're just incredible. They're just incredible.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah, the some of the some of the cards are easier to write than others. Uh, they're about the first 24 or so cards that went on the list were animals that were ex, you know, explicitly mentioned in A Witch's Ally, the original book. So and those were all animals that through historic record had ties to witchcraft. So, like those were the easy ones, kind of, because there was a straight line. I'd already done a bunch of writing about those preachers in the first book. So I had you know the background information sort of pre-loaded in my brain, but then there was the rest of the cards to make up to to the 40 with.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

You interviewed witches and other people to ask questions about their interactions with these with these magical allies.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, well, because we had the the original list of 24 animals that I had written about in A Witch's Ally, the book, but we wanted to make up to 48 cards. We needed to come up with another two dozen animals to fill that in. So in order to select those creatures, uh, you know, I threw out a couple little questionnaires on Facebook, you know, hey, what animals do you associate with witchcraft? And, you know, they were repeating patterns. Certain, certain creatures came up more than others, but also in-person conversations with other practitioners, you know, an after-party at Peg Anacon turned into some really interesting sort of one-on-one discussions with people about the animals that they fold into their witchcraft. And I really, really desperately wish, like the filmmaker part of my brain, which it wishes I had, you know, had a camera on or had recorded those conversations because they were really interesting and intimate and passionate conversations about the types of animals that individual practitioners like to work with.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

There's always that beautiful personal aspect of it too. Coming fresh off of the sacred space conference. I know that the after party is one of the most magical times because everybody is, you know, coming off of doing ritual together, learning new things, reinforcing old things. And then you have those amazing, brilliant personal gnosis stories. I bet if you asked the people that helped inspire some of these cards, they've actually thought of some other things and you could still do the video.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Maybe, maybe. It felt like uh one of those perfect moments in time, though, you know. The the deck was still just a twinkle in in mine and Laura's eyes. And uh, you know, collecting that information, gathering up people's experiences and hearing those stories spontaneously. I don't know, part of the magic, I think.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Oh, yeah, definitely. Between Earth Magic and A Witch's Ally, how is your approach to writing about witchcraft and magic evolved between those works? Because they were pretty, what, a few years apart, I think? A couple years, two years apart, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Well, I mean, I Earth Magic, I mean, there's a long process. You deliver your manuscript, you know, that first here's I'm finished writing, here's my manuscript. It goes to your editor. And from that moment to publishing day is is it at least a year, right? So by the time the book actually comes out, you've got like, did I write this? What? You know, it's almost it's almost like you block it out of your mind. So by the time Earth Magic was released into the world, I'd already signed a contract for a witch's ally and had started compiling that information. And it all felt like sort of like one movement. By the time Witch's Ally was released, Laura and I had hatched the plan to do the Oracle deck. So everything was just kind of like tides. After I delivered the Oracle deck book, companion book manuscript, I took some time off that summer. I had a contract for the book I'm working on now, but I had enough, I built in enough time that I could take a summer away, step back, calm my, you know, hot, swollen brain down. But then I started started doing the zine. So the zines are building up to, they are sort of like the loose framework that the next book's gonna be based on. So it all kind of ties together. And I think if there was something in the process there, it's been sort of like constantly reinventing new ways to stay creative and stay fresh. Not let the writing dictate what the witchcraft is, but by paying attention to what the witchcraft is and then authentically writing about it, trying to be more focused on doing good witchcraft and being true to myself, focusing on coven life. The coven I I'm a part of is very active and busy. So not letting the writing dictate what I do, but rather, you know, what I do dictate the writing.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Oh, yeah. You're kind of following that inspiration trail. Oh, that sounds cheesy. But you know what I mean. You're not forcing it. It doesn't sound like you're forcing it, and it doesn't feel like you are. You know, your writing is really tangible and authentic.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Well, and it's an easy trap to fall into because you know, you get notes back from your editor saying, Can you put more rituals in here and can you put more spells in here? And I'm like, Well, no, actually, you know, that then I'm creating content for the book. It's not uh reflective of what I actually do. So, you know, putting some some boundaries around that. And I think we've got a lot of those kind of 101 books, you know, this is how to witchcraft. I think as we grow as a community of people, we also need to talk about ideas constructively and theories and building out a cultural worldview for paganism and witchcraft beyond this is how you make a puppet or whatever the spell is going to be, right? There's you can get that anywhere, but getting original, inspiring, creative thought, I think is we need that food to keep growing as a culture.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Oh, we definitely do. I think as we learn more about neopaganism and the actual roots of neo-paganism and understand it, recognizing that it doesn't diminish the importance or, you know, the significance of these stories or how these belief systems and you know came into existence, but we do need our own perspective. That's kind of what it's supposed, that's what it was originally supposed to be about. These earth-centered practices were supposed to be regional and organic. And I think that we have we're starting to get back into that. I love to hear people's origin story or how they first connected with the land. And you you really do, you explain that well in in all of your books.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

So well, and it it is important. I mean, my husband and I often talk about we we often watch the news and get absorbed by whatever global crisis is going on. And we always come back to a conversation about how an animistic worldview is probably the only thing that's going to save us if we as human beings, regardless of what our spiritual stripe might be, if as human beings, we can recognize that we are not the dominant uh species here, that we are just one part of it, and that the rest of creation is also alive and infused with spirit. We can put our relationship with the natural world. I think of it as like the web of life, you know, that we're a part of it. We're not the dominant species, we're not the the boss of it, you know, but that that is what we need. And effort for the neo-pagan and witchcraft movement to we have a potential to lead that vanguard, right? We should be the ones who are naturally attuned to that. And that should be the priority, not content creation or looking cool on Instagram, but about authentically connecting and leading by positive example, right? Without being preachy or didactic or like I am right now because I'm on a soapbox and I'm ranting.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

But go for a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

No, you know what I mean. Like we have a potential to example that to other people who might not have figured it out yet, you know? Yeah. And building a culture that makes sense to more people, you know. I've I've tried to do that with the books I've made, and I've tried to do that also with the films I've made, you know, showing uh an earth-centered attitude towards life.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So many people have been saying that they're discouraged or they feel separated. And I I agree with you. I think that that's why we have masses of people wandering into pagan spaces, wandering into, you know, witch stores, desperate for that connection, that feeling of connection. You teach as well. You have a coven, but you teach it within that coven.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I am a part of a coven, and I also and we're very active. We meet on a weekly basis. And then in addition to that, I do occasionally do classes out of a store uh here in Winnipeg where I live. You're right, there are a lot of folks, and you know, I really noticed it during the pandemic when we all turned to Zoom, and some of the work that um my coven does started to be offered on Zoom. Like we have a book study group that we kind of threw open to more people. And people were really feeling like literally disconnected during the pandemic because we were all locked down and in isolation from one another. But that sort of yearning and seeking to find something that makes sense, something that feeds people's spirits and feeds people's souls. I was once asked when Earth Magic, my first book came out, I did a book launch thing at a fancy indie bookstore here in Winnipeg. Somebody asked me, what do you mean, like, why witchcraft? Like I, you know, I don't get it. Why would I want to connect with that? Why would it, what does it have that is better or than any other, you know, religious path or spiritual path? And the person I was acquainted with who asked the question, and they're, you know, pretty diehard pragmatic atheist kind of person. And I asked them to imagine themselves in the forest, a beautiful forest, on a perfect day, perfect temperature, perfect weather. And you close your eyes and you can just hear the birds and the rustling of the leaves and the trees, and you can smell all the aerosols that the trees emit, and everything's just the moss is soft, and the bark is interesting and crackly on the trees, and you feel all this, and your your heart just opens and you just feel so embraced, and and you breathe it up, and it just feels great. And I said, Witchcraft is doing that on command, even when you're not in the forest. Creating that kind of magic and that kind of connection is something that anybody can appreciate. You don't have to necessarily call yourself a witch, but taking those moments to put yourself in that place, maybe literally, maybe literally going out into the woods to experience that, or just to evoke it on your own and feel that connection. That's magic. And the more people get involved in consciously doing that, the more stable and progressive our planet can be.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Hell yeah. Absolutely. That was that was where I was headed with my question because that's one of my favorite things. And as someone who teaches or helps to teach, I'm sure you've experienced this as well. Someone is, they look lost. They show up at a class or a workshop, and you can tell they really are searching for something. And aren't we all? I mean, as someone who writes and lives in the occult world myself, I we're compelled to do this. We're not doing it because it's fun, it's a compulsion, something that we're so passionate about that we just can't help it. But seeing people come into those spaces, helping them make their own connection back to the earth, back to feeling that tangible grip that we're not on the earth, we're of the earth. Um, there's a million different ways to say it. But seeing them recognize, you know, helping them walk back to themselves, I think that's one of the most magical things that we can do. And I think that your books do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Thank you. That's that's a nice thing to say. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

You're welcome. It they're really great. You can tell that you've spent a lot of time in the woods.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

I try to. I mean, I I live in a in a city that's rapidly, rapidly expanding. But the city I live in, it's called Winnipeg, right in the center of Canada, just north of the Canada-US border. You know, we're surrounded by prairie landscape for hundreds of kilometers east and west of us, and also south of us. And then north, uh, prairie peters out pretty fast, and we enter some lake territory that's really watery, and then Canadian muskeg and shield that goes up north from there. And it's so we're like an urban island in the middle of this big landscape. So there's a lot of opportunities to connect with all kinds of different environments. I mean, the province of Manitoba has deserts and huge lakes and sandy places and watery places and farm places and woodland places. So it's I'm spoiled that way. I can get out in all kinds of environments.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, you are. I was trying to think about the last time I was in a meadow. I live in, well, we I live in Pennsylvania, central Pennsylvania, and so I'm in the woods, but I think driving out to the Midwest, it was um many years ago since I've been in that setting. So I would love to feel the energy of a prairie. I've always been drawn to prairies. They're not really my favorite, but I feel like there's something so powerful, especially when the wind starts to blow and you see the grasses move.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

It's funny because people think prairies are boring and empty. And I adore the big sky. I adore seeing limitless horizon and I just see it as exciting. And I enjoy putting myself there because I like being reminded that I'm actually really small, and uh the world is so much bigger and there's so much more going on than just me. It actually takes a lot of pressure off, you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

There's all kinds of adorable little creatures scurrying around in the prairie, too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Prairie dogs, one of my favorite creatures.

unknown 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Oh my god, they're so cute. Oh my gosh. I feel like they're they're just adorable. They're mischievous, I can tell. I was looking through um speaking of filmmaking and storytelling, your films, The Winnipeg's, Starry Nights, and Exploring the Sacred. So those all, and correct me if I'm wrong, explore contemporary practices around magic and nature. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Um, yeah. Win The Winnipegans was the first short film I made, and it was a 35-minute documentary about the genesis of the pagan community in Winnipeg. Those of us who are sort of pagan and witchy folk here, we like to call ourselves Winnipegans. It's just a hilarious thing. So yeah, that was that was fun. It was kind of nice to pay tribute to my home community that way. Uh, Starry Night actually is a uh short film as well. And it's about, I mean, the short answer is it's about amateur astronomers, but it's uh way more spiritual than that. And the central figure in that is Kara Cahulin, who is a prolific pagan writer here in Canada who um has toured around and done all kinds of festivals, particularly in the United States. So uh Kerr reached out to me one day and said, you know, I really want to talk about astronomy and I wanna do something new. And uh I I felt like at that time I was feeling like I really wanted to apply for this uh grant to that one of the national broadcasters here was offering for short con short format films. So I'm like, hey, we should, yeah, can I make a film about you? So that's what we did. And then uh Exploring the Sacred is a four part series of little short films about different types of earth-based spiritualities that people here in Manitoba involve themselves in. And that was made for a a local broadcaster as well. So I don't know, it's just really fun. And it's trying to bring that sort of animistic, earth-centered worldview into a mainstream place, you know, flashing the flag or, you know, burning the beacon to let other people who might be looking for that, giving them a place to connect and some avenues to explore.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

I am a huge fan of indie films, indie books, just in general. And I'm I'm really excited uh to check those out further. Do you think, in your view, are storytelling and ritual connected? And do you see filmmaking itself as kind of a magical practice?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Well, it feels magical when you're walking into it, and then when you're in the thick of it, it starts to feel uh like a lot of work. You know, there's there's a romantic kind of notion that you wander into every project with, and then the reality of making it. I've got to say, I've been really lucky to get, you know, mainstream outlets for my not maybe not so mainstream things that I want to say. But, you know, hearkening back to something I mentioned earlier, it's about building a neopagan culture, right? Culture needs to have different types of expressions in order to become rich and fulfilling. And creating, creating films, creating songs, creating books and poetry and music, these are all ways that we build our neo-pagan culture. And they display our neopagan culture to the world. So I guess in that sense, it's kind of it's a magical alchemical transformative practice.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

I can I can imagine. Um, I've never made, I've only made podcast videos before, but used to be really into photography and and that sort of thing. And I think it is magical, especially when you're looking back at the finished project, because it elicits, you know, the emotion and the the feeling of of how it felt when you were creating it. So when you're making media like that, what what is the most challenging part of that? And are any of any parts of that particularly rewarding?

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Well, the hardest part is come is finding a funder, finding a broadcaster or somebody to come on board and and and fund the thing. It's worth it because then you have a platform to share your work with. I've been really lucky that the the the types of uh funding I've got hasn't dictated what I can create. You know, that's that's a real that's a real privilege. And usually when I'm in that position and I'm presenting, you know, a rough cut of the project to the funder, to the broadcaster, I'm really ready to protect what I've created because they might try to censor it or change it to make it more palatable or more mainstream. And that hasn't happened to me. You know, it's it there's been a a shared curiosity about that, oh well, this is really new. This is something, this is a take that we've never had on our platform before, you know. Um, so that's that's been great. You know, when I was building my present website and putting the projects on there, I was like, you know, this is all right. I'm I'm very pleased with what I've been able to do.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Well, that's awesome. And that's a flex, being able to stay true to your authentic self because it's easy to acquiesce, but um, you can really tell that you hold those boundaries for a personal and passionate reason. So that's that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, I mean, it it be it it can get really dicey, especially if you're trying to to do that as your main source of income. You know, everybody's gotta pay rent, everybody's gotta eat. So it it can be really easy. And I've worked on I've worked on projects, you know, been hired to work on other people's projects and you know, walked away from those projects and not even included them on my CV because I just don't want to remember that I I was there, you know. It was like, oh, I really needed to make rent, you know. Yeah. Now I'm gonna walk away and pretend it never happened, you know. It's it's um, and not because necessarily the finished product was bad, but because it was a it was a a job I took instead of, you know, a passion that I followed.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Oh yeah, I understand that. Um so you teach witchcraft, you teach or centered animism. You facilitate a busy coven. You said, how does working with community and and bringing that creative process in shape or inform your creative project? Do you think that working with people has made an impact on your project?

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Oh yeah. I mean, there's a couple of facets to that. I teach the the the workshop series that I teach out of the uh a local store here in Winnipeg, quite often it's a way for me to stand up and articulate something I've been writing about. It it's like workshopping concepts and going through ideas and getting getting uh reaction from people so I can sort of test my own boundaries with it. You know, when when you're I think when you're teaching, if if you're really committed to it, the act of teaching is a great way of you know increasing your own learning, right? And watching people's face light up or having that light bulb moment in your class, then you know you're onto something. Then you know that you should be, you know, emphasizing that a bit more. It helps you really tune your focus into where the, you know, where the real nuggets are. And also when I'm writing or making a film or teaching, it's also about trying to be the witch I wish I had met when I was starting out. When I was a teenager and I was looking for a witchcraft mentor or a resource place was before the internet. There weren't as many books published then, there weren't occult shops in every community. It was it was a different time. So looking for that person who could sit me down and and tell me stuff and point me in various directions. It'd be nice to be that person I wish I had met. And it's it's funny because I facilitate a book study group. And sometimes we pick up a book and read it, and I'm like, wow, I wish I had this book when I was 16. You know what wouldn't that have been amazing? So try trying to be that witch and uh and also just trying to keep my own creative juices flowing and stay inspired, honestly inspired.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

I have several students I call my student mentors, and I I think that that is when you have that reciprocity and that collaboration in a coven or in any group that's doing anything together, I think that's really beneficial because you do, you learn new perspectives all the time if you listen. You're working on another book. What what is your upcoming book? It's the reason why my hair is going rapidly gray.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Um it's it's going to be a book to short answer without giving too much away. It's going to be a book about green witchcraft from a more uh activist point of view. I will say that I was going back and sort of doing a bit of self-editing, reading through something that I'd written two weeks ago. I sat down last weekend and went back through it and was flushing it out and correcting my atrocious spelling on a few hundred words. I realized that, wow, I'm that young punk from my teenage years is still very much alive and well, and she's real angry about what's going on in the world right now. So it it is becoming, I'm trying to make sure it's not an angry book. I don't want it to be date stamped. Oh, somebody wrote this book during the second Trump administration. But all that anger needs to be channeled creatively and uh maybe constructively too. So yeah, political activist Green Witchcraft book coming up.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Okay, I'm psyched for that one.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Absolutely. All the spoilers are in the zines, right? The zines are like my little barometer test for for what how I'm feeling and and how people are gonna react.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Is there anything that you've always wanted to explore um in any medium, film or books or another oracle deck, but you haven't had the chance to yet?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Oh, geez. You know, I I've always wanted to do there's another big film project that I developed uh during the pandemic with a a colleague in BC about sort of the effect of the witch trial period on modern feminism. That's a project that's still sitting in a big fat file on my desk that I that would be a dream to be able to uh to get that off the ground. So that's there. I really have this fantasy too, and maybe it's because I hang out with Laura and and look see her art and have her art all around me here at home. But someday I'd love to buy a watercolor set and just try to see what it's like to paint. I'm fascinated with people who have that skill. And, you know, I know some artists go, well, everybody can paint. And some artists say, Oh, I went to art school for a million years to learn how to do this. It's really hard. But I just I love colors and I love seeing rich, saturated color on a canvas or on paper. So maybe I'd like to do that. I'd love to do another deck, a couple of ideas floating around. And Laura and I have thrown around some ideas too. So, you know, I I I don't want to decide. I want to just see where the wind takes me.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

The idea of a witch trial perspective and how that shaped our collective, but really our collective trauma. But yeah, puritanical culture is out. That is that's the theme, I think, lately. A lot of us are very angry and with good reason. And I don't think anger is a negative thing, so long as it's integrated, because I think it can be a very powerful medium and a powerful motivator. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Yeah, uh, on a on a side tangent, I'm I'm watching the TV series Riot Women right now. Ooh, okay. It's great. Bunch of menopausal uh women get together and form up sort of riot girl kind of punk band in their menopausal years. And I'm like, I am so there with those gals, like a hundred percent. That kind of rage is just it's great. It's create for you know, in the context of that story, it's creating art and relationships and change within this group of women. But yeah, yeah, constructive anger. I think that's uh that's what we can take away from this period in history if we choose it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yeah. We have an opportunity. Is there a lot of as someone who's really well versed in animism and in is involved in your local um pagan community, there are a lot of misconceptions. Uh is there something that you wish more people understood about magic or spiritual connection with nature in the modern world? Well, it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

I there's a uh a workshop I've done a few times at different events in in the States about activism and magic and environmentalism. And some people feel really challenged that, oh, I can't do that because I live in a city, or, you know, oh, I I I can't drive out to the woods because uh, you know, I don't have that privilege. This is elitist, this is exclusive, this is gatekeeped somehow, this connection with nature. And and I find that it's really sad. And I think we are nature. You don't go to nature. By virtue of being a human being alive on the planet, you are part of nature. You know, you the environment, even if it was a built environment in a city and you live in a condo on the you know, 16th floor of a building, you still are in nature. The air is around you, the sky is above you, you are part of it, and you're not cut off from it because you can't go on a vacation to a national park and sit in a yurt or whatever, you know. Um, those are nice things to do. And they might not be your jam, but you are still a part of nature. You know, that is in you. You are it. That's where you start.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

I have a few people that show up to workshops just to be a pain in the butt. I'm sure you're familiar with that. Oh, one of my favorite things to bring up with when they say, Well, I don't really feel connected to all of this. And I was like, Well, you are whether you like it or not. And look at our circadian rhythms, look at what happens, like the entrainment that happens just by being in a in an area long enough to experience the sunrise and the sunset. We align to it whether we whether we agree to it or not, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And you know, part of that is about acknowledging that human beings are animals. You know, we are a type of creature and we have circadian rhythms, we have hormones that dictate our mating behavior or or not. You know, we have bodies that uh function and need food and create waste. You know, we're we're just like every other damn mammal, except we have a type of consciousness that gives us a superiority complex. You know, it's uh it's it's interesting that that people feel so cut off from things.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, that pesky consciousness tend tends to get to me more than anything else, you know. Is there a practice or ritual or place that feels magical to you but might surprise people who don't share your path?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Well, this might be surprising. I I feel like that in the grocery store. I really, really feel somehow connected to something other when I'm in the grocery store and I'm looking at all the ways we can nourish our bodies and all the great access to magical supplies. Like everything I need, I can pretty much get at my the grocery store on the corner from where I live, you know, spices and different types of salts and interesting. The the grocery store near me has a international foods section. So I can get things like rose water or Florida water at my grocery store. I can get a multitude of different types of interesting salt, cool little bits and pieces. You know, there's just like the bits and bobs section with, you know, interesting little sewing notions with things like pins, you know, everything's there. Yeah. And uh and I can get a quart of milk while I'm at it. I I love it. Something, something really appeals to that sort of kitchen witch, earth witch part of me.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

You're gathering. And I also think our ancestors would be jealous, right? I mean, it's pretty convenient, but we should be grateful for it too. Um, it's that's a really cool answer. You actually made my afternoon much brighter. I'm gonna approach, I'm going to approach my grocery store trip with something other than uh loathing. So I'm gonna try to recalibrate there. Thank you for that. Yeah. So going through this deck, I because I have to bring it up again. Um it's right here. And so I've got it. I mean, I brought it with me to Sacred Space. It has it's become one of my traveling decks. That's so well done. But if you could share the backstory of one particular card in A Witch's Ally Oracle, one that maybe changed you or felt really which one would it be?

SPEAKER_01 37:00

I mean, I could tell that there's the obvious story about the dog card. The dog card is a picture of my my beloved companion Oban, who was with me for 16 years. And, you know, he was just uh I'm I'm I'm telling telling you this, and I'm looking over my monitor at the painting of the dog card. I have the original painting here that Laura did. Oban was just so special. And, you know, he was such an active participant in Coven life and our circles and and our retreats out to the to the woods and all that. He was there for everything, you know. We went through uh the the end of my first marriage together and all my adventures, rebuilding my life after that, and you know, falling in love again and getting remarried, and you know, all he was there. He was always, always present and always really there. But, you know, there are 48 cards in this deck, so you know, each card has its own origin. Pull a card at random and throw it at me, and I'll see if I got the backstory for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

All right.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Oh, mole. Okay. I really wanted a mole card in there. That's awesome. I and it was funny because I I sent Laura a list of the animals, and she's like, moles. Dotie, what's with moles? Well, I've I've spent a lot of time in in the UK, and I'm uh a big fan of of the folklore of that part of the world. And moles come up a lot in English folklore and and European folklore. And moles uh quite often are used in different types of spells, particularly their little weird hands and their little their little weird fuzzy bodies. Horrible things were done to moles in in order to do different types of spells. They were usually tortured and killed slowly and left to crawl around, and it was just horrible. So, in sort of pitching this as a card to Laura, I I was filling her, uh texting her regularly with weird mole-related stuff, including uh, you know, various examples of mole charms that I found at the Museum of Witchcraft in Boss Castle, UK. The Victor Wynne Museum had a giant jar of mole feet that uh in packed in like giant jar, like one of those big like kosher pickle sized jars jammed with mole's feet and formaldehyde. Horrible, horrible stuff. But you know, it she's like, okay, okay, I get it. And and did that amazing painting of a little mole. But uh, I've got a lot, a lot, a lot of love for those little creatures. And, you know, if you think about witchcraft essentially being a really practical thing, moles are in everybody's garden and they're slow and easy to catch. So, you know, they have this subterranean, other, underworldly kind of affiliation. Makes sense from that point of view, but uh lay off the moles. Let them have their little hands and don't hurt them.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

They have no business being that cute. I'm kind of cackling over you forcing Laura to subscribe to uh text mole facts. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Well, it it was just funny. It was like that conversation was like we were on Zoom and she's like, moles?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

I'm so glad that came up. Yeah, that's well, witches are always the champion of the underdog, right? Yeah, you love the unlovable. And that's that's pretty awesome. Dodie, I can't thank you enough for coming on today. This has been awesome. I could probably talk to you for another hour, but since our time is coming to a close, I just want to thank you again and tell all of our listeners that I'll link everything that we spoke about so you have access to it. And I just thank you. Thank you again for coming on.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Oh, thank you. I think it all worked out, and I really appreciated the conversation. Thank you.