Spirited Discussions: A Podcast by Montgomery County Alcohol Beverage Services
Welcome to Spirited Discussions: A Podcast by Montgomery County Alcohol Beverage Services, exploring alcohol products, trends, and policies in our community. Expand your understanding of premium whiskeys, fine wines, and craft beer. Discover new and innovative products. And learn how Alcohol Beverage Services contributes to making Montgomery County a great place to live, work, and play.
Episodes feature experts from within ABS and private industry to answer some of the most intriguing questions about alcohol sales and service as well as public health and safety. What does the liquor board do? How do the highly allocated lotteries work? Where does the revenue go? And why isn’t there alcohol in supermarkets? If you have a question or idea for a future episode, email abs.spiriteddiscussions@montgomerycountymd.gov.
Spirited Discussions: A Podcast by Montgomery County Alcohol Beverage Services
Growing Montgomery County Wine Country
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Montgomery County is well known for its shopping, dining and culture. But did you know that in the Agricultural Reserve, it is also wine country? We sit down with Keith Miller, CEO of the Montgomery County Revenue Authority, and Angie Alvarez from ABS’s Seneca Meadows retail store to discuss how The Crossvines, ABS, and others are working toward economic development, agricultural tourism, and opportunity for local winemakers.
The transcript for this episode is available here:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2345583/19170747-growing-montgomery-county-wine-country/transcript
Welcome To Spirited Discussions
AnnouncerWelcome to Spirited Discussions, a podcast by Alcohol Beverage Services, exploring alcohol products, trends, and policies in Montgomery County.
Jocelyn RawatThanks for joining us. I'm your host, Jocelyn Rawat. Montgomery County is known for its urban centers with world-class shopping, outstanding restaurants, and a broad array of cultural opportunities. But remember, if you head out to the Agricultural Reserve, it's also wine country. The array of local products available, not just wine, but beer and spirits too, keeps growing. And the quality also keeps going up too. So to help us understand how the public, private, and nonprofit sectors are working together to support agricultural tourism generally and winemaking specifically, we have Keith Miller, CEO of the Montgomery County Revenue Authority. Hi, Keith. We're also joined by Angie Alvarez, who is the assistant manager at ABS's Seneca Meadows retail store, which also serves as a hub for the department's local products Welcome, Angie.
What The Revenue Authority Does
Jocelyn RawatKeith, I'm going to start with you. Can you tell me what the Montgomery County Revenue Authority is?
Keith MillerGreat question. I get this a lot because everybody's like, who are you guys and what do you guys do? And so Montgomery County Revenue Authority, or as we refer to it as MCRA, we're a quasi-based governmental entity. We were actually created by state law, transferred to county law in the early 90s. We have a governing board, and we're really charged with operating revenue-producing facilities. They're public assets that serve Montgomery County. And the most important piece is that we don't rely on taxpayer subsidies.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, yeah, that is important. So you have quite a few facilities, including a number of golf courses and the airport, right? And then the newest
The Crossvines Vision And Site Features
Jocelyn Rawatone is The Crossvines. So can you tell me what that is and and what's the Revenue Authority's role in it?
Keith MillerYeah, so this the The Crossvines is really kind of a public-private partnership. We really kind of started out to support the wine industry and support ag tourism in Montgomery County. but it really brings together education, recreation, and tourism on one site. It includes a winery, it includes a cidery, a teaching and research a restaurant, an event center, and even a golf course. So talk about The Crossvines when we were naming it, right? We talked about crossroads of all these things happening. And crossvines is actually a plant that's native to Maryland. So we we kind of came up with the name The Crossvines. So our role has really been bringing this vision to life. We met with key stakeholders early on, learned about the needs and to understand what the industry really wanted, and then we developed the facility. So in the end, we want a sustainable business that supports local farmers, winemakers, and a broader agriculture economy in the in the county. So that's kind of the story The Crossvines and what it is and our role. It was really kind of facilitating all the needs, try and support ag tourism and agriculture in the county.
Jocelyn RawatAnd it's been a long time in the making. I remember these conversations at least a decade ago, right?
Keith MillerYes. Yeah. It was it was a 10-year journey from inception to actually opening. So it was it was a long project, a long time period.
Jocelyn RawatSo we're we're really , this is great that it's finally here.
ABS Local Products Program Growth
Jocelyn RawatSo Angie, what is ABS's local products program?
Angie AlvarezSo we support local businesses and bringing in their products into the stores and we help them with marketing and we help them also with tastings and just bringing brand recognition into, you know, like recommendations into our customers. So if there's a new local product, we help bring awareness to customers about the products.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. So I can come into your store and I can taste something new?
Angie AlvarezWell, we book tastings with them. Fridays and Saturdays are are tasting days when, from four to seven, or we have on Saturdays we have one to four and then four to seven. And yes, if we get together with the local supplier and ask them, do you have any availability? And we put it on our website too. So you can go into the website and see what days they have tastings and in which locations.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. So and no reservation required. Just stop by and and taste something good. Okay, that's awesome. Okay, so the local program started small in 2018 with just six businesses and about $70,000 in revenue in that first year. Where are we now?
Angie AlvarezSo in 2025, we have had 39 local suppliers and we are up to 2.15 million in revenue.
Jocelyn RawatWow, that's a lot of growth.
Angie AlvarezYes. And not just that, I mean, I feel that with the local program, we really have helped local suppliers, especially during COVID, when their facilities would close. Most of these businesses were probably goning out of business. But fortunate enough, since we were able to continue selling the products in ABS, we helped them stay afloat.
Shared Winemaking And Startup Timeline
Jocelyn RawatOh, that's that's good news. Okay, so moving on, Keith, I want to know more specifically about the production facility. So it's my understanding that The Crossvines functions like other wineries in that it makes its own quality wines and ciders, but the facility also welcomes farmers to make their own wines there too, right? How does that work?
Keith MillerYeah, so it go back to the requests of the industry. They had three requests for us when we were opened up The Crossvines. Education, which University of Maryland created the fermentation degree program, research, which is the vineyard that we have on the and doing research with the University of Maryland, and then the shared production space. So this is common in Northern California, in Europe. There's these centralized production facilities with shared equipment. So basically, instead of a winery investing all this money in equipment, which can be quite expensive and a big barrier to entry into the industry, we've created a centralized facility at Crossvines. And so the production facility actually has the capability of producing over 10,000 cases a year. Um, and our own production levels are not at that or even close to that level. It would be fun if they were, but they're not, but the the purpose of the building and the and how this works is the purpose of it was to support the local farmers or local business people that were looking to get into the wine industry, reduce that barrier to entry. So basically, what they do is they buy their grapes or grow their grapes. They bring the grapes to Crossvines. We then take the grapes, crush them, make it into wine, and actually we'll turn it back out to them in finished cases and bottles. That's the way the production facility works. So they get the use and the benefit of this really professional grade equipment and without the cost and the barrier at the beginning in their startup.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, so you said startups. So how like do they scale? Can they scale with you or do they move on to something else?
Keith MillerWell, so yeah, they they do a little bit of both, right? Um, we've had we've actually had graduates that have moved on to their own facilities and built it out. Um, you know, the the old number when we were, you know, kind of getting involved with this was the winery said it was about 20 to 30 acres of grapes in the ground that then justified the the investment into a production.
Jocelyn RawatThat's a lot of acreage in Montgomery County.
Keith MillerYes. And so basically they do grow. They can also scale, you know, really through the ABS program. So they can come and they can scale up with us. They start at their production. Their actual winery is in our building. That's the actual licensed facility that they have. And then basically what happens is they go out and they try and wholesale directly to vendors, restaurants, whatever it might be. They try and do direct sales to clients. And then they partner with ABS and kind of get into their program and leverage that as a way to kind of really grow their product base, right? Be able to put it on store in the store and through your great program, Angie, is is is just being able to do that, right? And so that's how they scale and they come up. And then they can eventually grow into their own um sales store and be able to do it in their own shop and in their own you know retail store if they get that big.
Jocelyn RawatNice.
Keith MillerSo it's a lot of different avenues that they can take.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. So when they first get there, when they when they show up on the door of The how long does it take them to get their first bottles?
Keith MillerYeah, so the short answer on that is probably a year, right? So usually what happens they need grapes before that.
Jocelyn RawatSo they've started long before that. Okay.
Keith MillerYeah. So the the timeline is this. Usually we get clients that'll show up around May or June and say, hey, we have this great idea. We want to start a winery. We always say, reach out to our head winemaker and and you know, get to meet him and and he'll work you through the process. You're trying secure your grapes by September, harvest this in September. We can make whites and rose by really March or April the next year. So probably the process starts till you have your first product is about a year, and then your red wines come after that. So about another half year after that, you're gonna bottle your reds. And so it's a year and a half before you have a full line of whites, roses and a red to offer as a winery.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, but in in wine, that doesn't actually seem like that long. That seems great. So how many businesses are in are in the program?
Keith MillerSo it's since we've been working over the last three years, we've helped 12 different brands get their start in the industry and grow their presence in it. We continue to bring new capabilities on. So we have new contracts coming in. We've now worked into forced carbonation, which is you know, sparkling wines are really hot right now. So we had to make that adjustment. And so we're we're actually doing that, but since we've started in just two and a half years, it's it's 12 clients have come in and starting
Research Vineyard And Fermentation Education
Keith Millerto grow.
Jocelyn RawatThat's great. So tell me more about the teaching hub. So you're you're not just providing the equipment, people can learn there too, right?
Keith MillerThat's correct. And so there's there's kind of two two sides to it. We were work with Dr. Fiola, who's the small fruits specialist with the Maryland Extension Program. So we have our research vineyard on the site, and that is in conjunction with the University of Maryland. And so we are doing a lot of research on different vines and what it can grow successfully in in the county, in the region. That's one piece. Also, there's a fermentation degree program at the University of Maryland.
Jocelyn RawatThat sure wasn't there when I was there.
Keith MillerYeah, I know, just started, actually, it was a genesis of this project. We met with the University of Maryland, told them what we were trying to do, and they created the fermentation degree program. So we have students coming out and learning. We actually have students from the food science club as well. They're coming out and learning at the property. And so we've had out of that, we get interns for our vineyard, we get interns at the production facility where students are learning and people learning. And then we we're hosting as we continue to develop this program, we're actually hosting kind of as they do projects, right? So as you go through the education piece, they've got to do projects. Well, we want to host that through them as well. And then to your point, is as we continue to grow this, we're starting to work on local programs that we can do, that people can come in and learn about what we do and how to make wine and things of that nature. So it's it's kind of starting in there and we're we're kind of getting into the next phase.
Jocelyn RawatNice.
Economic Development Through Ag Tourism
Jocelyn RawatSo , would it be fair to say that when you play golf or eat at the restaurant or enjoy a tasting flight at the Crossvines, that you're contributing to the county's economic development?
Keith MillerAbsolutely. You know, behind the scenes at our restaurant and event center, the golf facility and winery, there are a great number of employment opportunities. And so those the all the all that staff that's at that property, you're you're contributing to that. You're contributing to and supporting those as well. But in addition to that, we're partnering in the restaurant side, we're partnering with the local farmers to feature their products and their crops and things of that nature. And so we're actually working on them with working with them on a whole new program on how we can do ordering and make ordering from the farmer directly easier for restaurants as a whole. So we're piloting programs this year that try and continue to develop that piece. So, yes, it's from staffing from product level, you've got local wineries that are local wineries that are startups that you're enhancing their product. Uh, and then we're buying from the from the local farms. And so we are supporting the Ag Reserve. So absolutely economic level.
Jocelyn RawatThat's really holistic.
Keith MillerYes.
Jocelyn RawatYeah, that's great. Including ABS's role in that, right? So, Angie, ABS stores carry the Crossvines wines?
Angie AlvarezYes, we carry the Barn Door red blend wine, and we also carry their Hit It Hard Peach Par-Fect cider, and we carry their Hit It Hard Long Drive cherry, which is one of the most favorite ones for all customers love that one. And it also best in show at the Maryland Governor's Cup wine competition.
Jocelyn RawatOoh, nice job, the The Crossvines. Yeah, okay. So we've got the The Crossvines, their wines that they're making, but how about any wines from the local producers that are using the The Crossvines production facility?
Angie AlvarezYes, Jocelyn. We also carry uh Flight Girl Winery, Metzgar Winery, and Noir Sunshine Winery.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, so you a lot that you can taste over at Seneca Meadows.
Self Distribution And Retail Store Hub
Jocelyn RawatI want to take a moment to talk about self-distribution. And I get it that this is a little bit in the weeds of alcohol law, but it's an important part of the economic development component for both The Crossvines and for ABS. Okay, so essentially, Alcohol Beverage Services acts as the wholesaler for beer, wine, and spirits in Montgomery County. And that means that when you buy alcohol at one of our retail stores or a privately owned beer and wine store or a restaurant, the revenue from that purchase goes toward resident services that otherwise would rely on tax dollars. Okay, so that's all a good system. And if you want to learn more about it, you can listen to episode three, the control model for alcohol distribution. Okay, but there is one exception to that system, and that is that local breweries, wineries, and distilleries can bypass the wholesaler, the wholesaler being ABS, and they can deliver their product directly to licensed stores and restaurants. Okay, so this is an important option because it helps keep a lower retail shelf price , and that makes it a little bit easier for small wineries to compete in a crowded alcohol market. Okay, so that's my that's my alcohol law pitch. But it matters. So, Angie, this is where the Seneca Meadows retail store comes in, right?
Angie AlvarezYes, that's correct. So my store, Seneca Meadows, serves as a , I guess a hub, you can say. They come and they deliver their product to our store. And then myself or my manager or my staff will then organize it to distribute it to all the other um stores at ABS. It's really great. I think I really love the program just because you get to meet a lot of these companies are so small that usually the owners are the ones doing the delivery. So you get an opportunity to talk to them and, you know, ask about their stories, how they started, why they're starting their business. And it also gives me, as the assistant manager, an opportunity to talk to them about marketing and also talk about what programs or what things we can do together to bring awareness. For example, March is Women History Month. And I thought it would be a great idea to do a front display to feature all the great women that are in the liquor business. And I thought it would be a fantastic idea if we could, you know, include some of the local breweries, wineries that we have in the area. I was able to partner up with five, which was Lionel's Rum, Clandestino, Butterfly Spirits, Rosie Cheeks, and Tenth Ward. And they were very supportive, very great to work with. And we were able to also book every Friday in March, we did a tasting with their product. And I was able to display it in front so customers could ask, you know, like, what is this? Like, is it women owned? And then we were able to spark conversation and them coming in and knowing so much about their own product and, you know, educating the customers about it was fantastic. So they got a lot of exposure in that way.
Jocelyn RawatThat's great. So then it's not really so much of a question or a surprise why the local program has grown so much since 2018. It's this, it's this personal relationship building and kind of a helping hand.
Angie AlvarezYeah. I mean, I for me personally, I think it's fantastic to see them start small and then you start seeing how they start growing, you know, like Scotty's is one. Like when I first started with ABS five years ago, it was just, you know, Scotty would come and deliver his little things. And it was just, you know, he only had 750 and 1.75 liters, and that was all he carried. And now he's in the open state. Now he has pints, now he has minis, and like he has just grown so much. And it's it's fantastic to know that I'm working with ABS and we have helped them grow, you know, and it's just great to hear the success stories.
Jocelyn RawatYeah, yeah, you're so right about that. These local suppliers, these are real people working really hard. Yeah that's great. So kind of back to self-distribution.
Why Self Distribution Keeps Prices Down
Jocelyn RawatKeith, how does that come into play for The Crossvines?
Keith MillerSo it's it's great for The Crossvines because we're both , we self-distribute our own product and we also buy through self-distribution. So it's, you know, from our side and from the winery, from Crossvines, is as we mentioned before, we have our product out there. We are self-distributing. We actually self, believe it or not, we self-distribute to ourselves. So not getting too deep in the weeds with with the liquor laws and stuff, but we actually are wholesalers. So we sell to the golf courses and our product we go out, and so we're self-distributing to our own golf courses. And then in addition to that, as was mentioned earlier as well, is our we watch our clients that are making wine with us at Crossvines, we watch them grow and they're able to do that through self-distribution. And so they're able to make those sales. They come and pick up their product right right from our facility and deliver it directly to the customer. Um, and then as well as getting on this on the on the shelves here at ABS stores and and being able to take part in that program, we see that growth, we see that ability to get through. And you're breaking down a big barrier, right? So when you you mentioned earlier and you said you know that you were talking about the cost and you know keeping keeping the product cost down. One of the challenges of producing a small amount, so in a startup, it's more expensive. And so, quite honestly, if you had to go through a distributor, they wouldn't be able to do that. Our clients and our new clients would not be able to do that because it's another layer of mark-up that goes to the customer. Um, and until you're really producing at that larger volume, you can't afford that. So the the product is critical to supporting the local economy and being able to get these small producers that are buying Maryland grapes, producing Maryland wine to be able to get them on the shelves and to be able to get them directly out to the customer. And then as a customer, we partner with a lot of local breweries, distilleries, and things of that nature at Crossvines. So we're buying directly from them and able to do that. So we've seen it on both sides, and it's and it's a great program, and it's really easy to use, and it's and it's a big benefit to the industry.
Jocelyn RawatYeah. So once again, getting into the weeds about alcohol law. So the Revenue Authority has several different alcohol licenses. As a manufacturer, you get your license from the state of Maryland. Correct. And then your retail licenses, basically, your restaurants at the golf courses for the most part, those come from the county from the Board of Licensed Commissioners. Correct. Okay, so it's a it's a complex system, but it is all tied together. And as as Angie said, even if you're self-distributing, you're still participating or you still can participate with alcohol beverage services. You can self-distribute to us.
Private Label Wine Plans Ahead
Jocelyn RawatAll right. So far we've got really a strong story about the The Crossvines. And I feel like we could end our episode right here. But I understand that there is something else on the horizon, and I hope we're gonna have some breaking news here. Tell me about your plans for producing private label wines.
Keith MillerYeah, so we're we're working with this. We continue to work with this. Um, we had it, it's a it's another great state session and legislative session, and so we had some more laws that were passed this year, which actually enable wineries to sell unfinished product and wine products to each other based on the different classes of licenses , and so that these are opening up channels for potential partnerships, which is what we're excited about. And I think really kind of the vision is the next step for us is how do you take these local produced wines um and partner with the restaurants so that they can come in and customize, right? So when you get it from the grape and you get the what we call the juice, the initial juice in as we start making that wine journey, get the restaurants in, get them involved, and actually being able to customize the taste of the wine for themselves. And then in the end, our ability and what we can do is put the private label on it. So now the wine can be branded under the local restaurant wine. And so we're pretty close. We are, you know, the the legislation and and they've been really supportive. And I think as these laws continue to go along, we are really well positioned to capitalize on that opportunity. But the vision is there and where we want to go. We're just not there quite yet. But, you know, again, my vision is that these. Restaurants are going to be able to come in, source local grapes, we'll make the wine. They'll be part of that whole process to customize that taste to them and what they want to offer, and then put their name and their branding on the bottle. It's going to be a great story to tell.
Jocelyn RawatYeah, and I I can't wait. I'm going to be the first one to buy a private label wine, especially now that you're doing sparkling wine too.
Keith MillerThere you go.
Listener Email And Closing Credits
Jocelyn RawatAll right. Thank you, Keith Miller and Angie Alvarez, for participating in today's Spirited Discussion.
Angie AlvarezThank you.
Keith MillerThank you.
Jocelyn RawatIf there's a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, email us at abs.spirited discussions@ montgomerycountymd.gov. And thanks for listening.
AnnouncerAlcohol Beverage Services is the alcohol wholesaler of beer, wine, and spirits for Montgomery County. And it operates neighborhood retail stores. ABS also manages alcohol licensing, enforcement, and education for more than 1,000 businesses. Profits are used to pay for resident services that otherwise would be funded by county tax dollars. This podcast is brought to you by County Cable Montgomery, your source for news and information from the Montgomery County government. Connect with us via cable, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube by searching for County Cable Moco.