Spirited Discussions: A Podcast by Montgomery County Alcohol Beverage Services
Welcome to Spirited Discussions: A Podcast by Montgomery County Alcohol Beverage Services, exploring alcohol products, trends, and policies in our community. Expand your understanding of premium whiskeys, fine wines, and craft beer. Discover new and innovative products. And learn how Alcohol Beverage Services contributes to making Montgomery County a great place to live, work, and play.
Episodes feature experts from within ABS and private industry to answer some of the most intriguing questions about alcohol sales and service as well as public health and safety. What does the liquor board do? How do the highly allocated lotteries work? Where does the revenue go? And why isn’t there alcohol in supermarkets? If you have a question or idea for a future episode, email abs.spiriteddiscussions@montgomerycountymd.gov.
Spirited Discussions: A Podcast by Montgomery County Alcohol Beverage Services
Celebrating Bourbon Heritage Month
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September is National Bourbon Heritage Month celebrating bourbon as a distinctive American product. Sazerac Company Brand Ambassador Matt Ray and ABS Retail Operations Manager join host Jocelyn Rawat to discuss Maryland's role in bourbon history, tips for a perfect old fashioned, seasonal bourbon cocktails, and how you can get highly sought-after bottles at the suggested retail price.
Welcome And Bourbon Heritage Month
AnnouncerWelcome to Spirited Discussions, a podcast by Alcohol Beverage Services, exploring alcohol products, trends, and policies in Montgomery County.
Jocelyn RawatThanks for joining us. I'm your host, Jocelyn Rawat. By unanimous declaration of the U.S. Senate, September is National Bourbon Heritage Month, and it's an opportunity to celebrate bourbon as America's native spirit. So to give us some history on bourbon as well as some new ways to enjoy it, we have Matt Ray, who is a brand ambassador for Sazerac Company. And he was recently awarded Whiskey Magazine's Icons of Whiskey 2026 World's Best Brand Ambassador for American Whiskey. Hi, Matt.
Matt RayHi, how are you?
Jocelyn RawatGood. Thanks for joining us. And we're also joined by Jay Spiegel, who is the retail operations manager here at Alcohol Beverage Services. And he's my go-to guy for bourbon. And welcome back, Jay.
Jay SpiegelHi, Jocelyn. Good afternoon.
What Sazerac Company Does
Jocelyn RawatOkay, so I want to start with Matt. First of all, tell us what is Sazerac Company.
Matt RayOh my gosh, I'm so glad you asked. Sazerac Company is a family-owned company based where I am here in New Orleans, Louisiana. We've been around in some shape, form, or fashion since the 1850s. We started as a little bar in the French quarter called the Sazerac House. And over the course of the last 175 years, we have become the largest family-owned liquor company in the world.
Jocelyn RawatWow. Okay. So Jay, what is ABS's relationship to Sazerac Company? They're in New Orleans, but we're working with them, right? And and the other suppliers too.
Jay SpiegelCorrect. So Sazerac provides us products and a lot of education and point of sale support for all the products they have in the market. We order directly from them and have the ability to work with them to provide our customers and licensees with the best availability of everything that they offer.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, and they're not the only suppliers that we're working with. We work with multiple suppliers, right? They're just a big one.
Jay SpiegelWe work with hundreds of suppliers across the United States and abroad.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, because I think that's kind of a misconception that's out there in the public that maybe we do everything here, but that is not true. We these partnerships with our suppliers is are pretty important.
Jay SpiegelOh absolutely.
Jocelyn RawatOkay.
Maryland Rye And Sazerac Origins
Jocelyn RawatSo Matt, you just told us you're joining us from New Orleans, but the company does have historic ties to Maryland, right?
Matt RayIt does. One of the gentlemen that is part of our company's history is named Thomas Handy. And we have a whiskey named after him as part of our Buffalo Trace Antique collection, which is our pretty fancy whiskey lineup that drops every fall. And if you're lucky enough to get one, it's very lovely. But it's a cask strength, barrel-proof rye whiskey that's aged six to seven years. But it was named for Thomas Handy because the story goes is that when he took over the Sazerac house here in New Orleans, our flagship cocktail for the city was Sazerac cocktail as it's known today. But it used to be called an improved brandy cocktail or a cue de chantecleer. But in the 1870s, cognac became very difficult to obtain due to a bug infestation in France called phylloxera, which is like a little bug that ate up the grapevines, and also tariffs. So what is old is new again.
Jocelyn RawatAren't those the same things we're talking about now?
Matt RayYep. So that supply of cognac was drying up, and believe it or not, the closest thing stylistically to this 1800-style cognac made with this grape called Columbard, which adds this kind of peppery spice note, and it was also made with full blanche grapes, which had this kind of aromatic lift. The closest thing stylistically was a Maryland-style rye whiskey. Maryland-style rye whiskey was famous for having more corn in it than its rival in Pennsylvania, which was 100% rye. So instead of just being a clove and peppercorn bomb, it had these lovely notes of like earthy sweetness from the corn and also this kind of aromatic lift from the corn and rye together. So he was importing this Maryland-style rye to New Orleans and using it in his cocktails at the Sazerac house. And to this day, we still make a Maryland slash Kentucky style rye whiskey, which is called Sazerac rye. And that is the same juice that goes into Thomas Handy.
Jocelyn RawatNice, nice. So Matt, I understand that you used to be a history teacher. So if you wouldn't mind reaching back into that toolkit, can you give us a little history lesson in bourbon and how we came to be so celebrating it as a unique American product?
The Law That Defines Bourbon
Matt RayYou know, believe it or not, there were other countries that used to make bourbon. Canada was making bourbon for a bit, Mexico was making controversial bourbon for a little bit. And in the 1960s, and specifically May 4, 1964, the U.S. Congress actually passed a law to protect bourbon as a uniquely American product. It was called a distinctive product of the United States of America. So it has the same designation as like champagne or tequila or cognac. We can make brandy in America that tastes very similar to cognac, but we cannot call it cognac, we will get sued by the French government. And likewise, Scotland could hypothetically make a corn whiskey and it could taste almost as good or maybe as good as what we make in the United States, but it would be very expensive for them to do so, and they could not call it bourbon. It is a distinctive product of the US and has been since 1964.
ABS Sales And How To Track
Jocelyn RawatOkay. So, Jay, how is ABS recognizing National Bourbon Heritage Month?
Jay SpiegelSo we can expect to have a full array of mainstream bourbons on sale next month, as well as some some more niche brands. But we we implore everybody to come in and check out those those sales at our stores.
Matt RayImplore.
Jocelyn RawatHow can people find out about the sales?
Jay SpiegelYou can follow us on Facebook at abs Montgomery County or subscribe to our weekly e-newsletter on our website at MontgomeryCountymd.gov slash ABS. You can also pay a visit to your local store.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. Every time someone has been here for the podcast, they have told me that they get that e-newsletter. So I think it's pretty popular. Okay, so this is for both of you,
Neat Vs Rocks And Preference
Jocelyn RawatMatt and Jay. Let's join the friendly debate that's out there. Do you prefer bourbon neat or on the rocks?
Matt RayJay, you first.
Jay SpiegelSo I will do both, but I prefer it neat.
Jocelyn RawatI'm a rocks kind of gal. How about you, Matt?
Matt RayYou know what? It it depends on my mood. I like it neat at first, but gosh, it is always hot here in New Orleans, and you guys are basically in a swamp too, so I think you understand the pain that we're in. So I love ice.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. And why and why do people do it differently?
Matt RayGosh, you know what? Thank God we're not all copy-cut and paste humans with the same DNA and preferences and likes, otherwise, everyone would probably just drink vodka. The journey that people take on their bourbon adventure does not always start with a barrel-proof 20-year-old whiskey. And if it did, it would be a much shorter supply than it already is.
Jocelyn RawatThat's why I'm a rock 's gal. I don't like the burn.
Matt RayThat's okay. We're all on a different spot in our journey, and maybe we're just happy where we are.
Jocelyn RawatOkay.
Why Old Fashioneds Taste Different
Jocelyn RawatSo, in addition to being good, either neat or on the rocks, bourbon also makes some really good cocktails, starting with the old-fashioned, which is kind of the classic that everybody knows about. But I find that when I order that in a restaurant or at or if somebody gives it to me at their house, that it really tastes a lot different depending on who's making it. So, so why is that? And what and what do you recommend?
Matt RayOh man, what a fun question. Have you ever made cookies at home?
Jocelyn RawatSure have.
Matt RayCookies are not complicated. They're only four or five ingredients, you know, flour, butter, chocolate chips, etc. But there's a chart that you can find online that shows the 105 ways that you can ruin a batch of cookies. Too much butter, not enough butter, too long in the oven, too low a heat, too long in the oven, too high a heat. Cookies are maddeningly difficult to perfect, and an old-fashioned is very similar. There's only four ingredients to an old-fashioned before you garnish it. There's spirit, sugar, water, and bitters. And that's before you muddle it with fruit or add a little orange twist to it, if that's your preference. And if any one of those are out of balance, too much sugar, you stirred it too long so it's watery, it can throw off your drinking experience. So depending on your technique or the ice or your mood, you can get a dramatically different cocktail depending on when you make it or when someone else makes it. And for all the hate that Starbucks gets for its coffee, I will say the one thing they have perfected is consistency. And a good bar program and a good bartender is known for their consistency, making the same old-fashioned the same way every day, which is harder than it sounds.
Jocelyn RawatYeah. Yeah. And the garnish matters too, right? And the glass?
Matt RayYeah, you're probably- I mean, the the tradition was not to have like the very, very first cocktail, quote unquote, did not include a garnish. And later it would get a lemon or orange twist as those started getting it imported and becoming more available. And in Kentucky, they were making old fashions at this place called the Pendennis Club, and they were famous for muddling a brandied cherry and orange slice, and theirs, and then the guy Wisconsin old fashioned is such a different beast. I don't even have time to get into that one.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, well, what I'll bet you you have some others for us. I I think that the old-fashioned is probably the only cocktail that I've had, but there are others, right? Made with bourbon.
Matt RayI love that that's you're so consistent that the old-fashioned is the only one you've had. That's incredible. And I applaud you for knowing what you like and sticking to it. It is what I do when I go out to a restaurant. I I hate kind of branching out and I love just getting my favorite meal every time. My favorite easy spin on an old-fashioned is instead of your traditional Angostura bitters or orange bitters, like Regan's. We make a bitters in our company called Bitterman's. And one of my favorite ones we make is chocolate mole bitters. And it's got this kind of cool like pepper and dark chocolate note that is really wonderful seasonally. That's a cool, easy riff on a and the easiest way to change your old
Better Old Fashioneds With Bitters
Matt Rayfashioned is just to mess around with the bitters, because that's an important part of balancing your cocktail. The other cocktails that I love for this time of year, there's a cool one called the Revolver, and that is a modern classic that was made out in San Francisco, but it is just a Manhattan riff. And when I am a as a bartender, when I say a riff, I mean I take a classic cocktail, like a Manhattan, which is two ounces of whiskey, bourbon or rye, an ounce of vermouth, and two dashes of bitters. And a riff just means I swap one of those ingredients out, or maybe two, and I keep the cocktail basically the same. So the revolver is pretty easy to make. You do the same two ounces of bourbon, you do an ounce of coffee liqueur, like we make one in our company called Grind that I love. I do like a dash of simple syrup and two dashes of orange bitters. You give that a stir like you would in Manhattan, you serve it up in chilled glass. And if you want to be real fancy, you can cut a half dollar size of orange peel and basically squeeze it over your glass over a match, and that will ignite the orange oil and it will spray on your drink and give it this kind of cool, smoky, flamed orange flavor.
Jocelyn RawatOh, you have so convinced me to try something else the next time I'm in a bar. Okay, okay. You have more for us?
Matt RayOh, yeah. The lion's tail is a seasonal favorite with cocktail bars. It is a whiskey sour style drink. So whiskey sour is whiskey citrus sugar. This is two ounces of bourbon, like Buffalo Trace or 1792, half an ounce of lime juice, half an ounce of all-spice dram, which is kind of like the you know, it's an all-spice clove baking spice liqueur. You do a quarter ounce of simple syrup, two dashes of bitters, you shake it, you serve it up, and it's like Christmas in a glass.
Jocelyn RawatOh, so you've got all the months covered.
Matt RayI do.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. All right, is that it? Or you got more for us?
Matt RayI've got one for October.
Jocelyn RawatOh, yeah, okay.
Matt RayMy favorite one for October and November is it's this one as cool, it's from this lady called Jessica Gonzalez out of New York, but she's got one called a vampire blues, and it's an ounce and a half of bourbon, half an ounce of sherry, half an ounce of lemon juice, and an ounce and
Seasonal Bourbon Cocktails To Try
Matt Raya half of pumpkin butter or apple butter. And then she added two dashes of bitters, and the one we use here in New Orleans is Bitterman's tiki bitters, which is like cinnamon clove allspice bitters, and you give it a hard shake because pumpkin butter and apple butter needs a little bit of oomph to dissolve. And it is just such a great drink to sit by a campfire.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. We go straight from National Bourbon Heritage Month into Halloween. Yeah. Okay. I think I think a lot of people are gonna like that. So I want to switch gears a little bit, and this is for Jay. I want to ask you one of the most frequently asked questions that I ever hear working here at ABS. What is up with the long lines in front of ABS on some Saturday mornings?
Jay SpiegelSo I will start by saying I wish I could talk about these programs just like Matt talked about those cocktails. That's awesome.
Matt RaySo thanks.
Jay SpiegelI will say that our second Saturday program is where we release a lot of first-time allocations, a lot of tough to get products, and it draws a lot of attention and gets a lot of people out of bed early on a on a Saturday morning. But that's where you can find some really cool stuff month to month.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. I think sometimes it gets them out of bed really early on Saturday morning. I think sometimes they're even Thursday arriving in the dark
Jay SpiegelThursday evening. Yeah, yeah.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. But if I am shopping or when I am shopping on Saturday morning, I have noticed that even when there's a long line there, I can usually get through and buy the other things that I want to buy. You don't necessarily have to compete with that line. Nope. Yeah. Okay. So is this is Saturday morning the only time to get good bourbon?
Jay SpiegelNo. So there's actually always great stuff in our stores. There's all kinds of barrel picks, there's new items, there's niche items. And there's items that started its way in that second Saturday program, and now we have enough to offer them all times of the year.
Jocelyn RawatSo easy shopping on Saturday morning. Get your get your good bourbon, get get your regular bourbon, get get everything. Get your bottle of wine, get can you get your bitters there too?
Jay SpiegelYou can get bitters, yeah. And we also we also have that lottery now that runs sometimes twice a year.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, tell me about the lottery.
Speaker 2So our lottery program is where we put our absolute most rare, most coveted bottles. It generally runs once in the in the spring and once again in the late summer or fall. Things like the Thomas Handy that Matt was alluding to earlier, our BTAC, our Pappy's, all the once once-in-a-lifetime opportunity bottles end up in there. Visit our website, keep tabs on that. You can check with the stores on when those are coming out, enter that lottery, and you get a chance, just like a national lottery, to win a bottle that you could only dream of.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. And to we win the opportunity to purchase a bottle that you can.
Jay SpiegelCorrect. Absolutely.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. And usually there are thousands of entries, right?
Jay SpiegelYeah, yeah, absolutely.
Matt RayCan I just point out how amazing I think the lottery program that you guys run is? It is so sadly, too often that one of our products, like Pappy Van Winkle, which we try to sell at a reasonable price, like between $200 and $300 a bottle, people will buy them and flip them online for sometimes $10,000 and $20,000. And even Julian Van Winkle, who makes it for us, says, Listen, I am very proud of this product. It is my family recipe. I am $250 proud of it. I am not $10,000 proud of it. So I just think it's amazing that you guys are giving people an opportunity to pay a fair price for these products. And also like bringing people in your community out for the lottery. I think the most valuable thing that especially these small liquor stores can do
The Real Reason For Store Lines
Matt Rayis bring people out and build a community around these products. So thank you guys for doing all that extra work to do a lottery because it is a lot of work where you very easily could just mark it up five grand and just be done with it.
Jocelyn RawatYeah. I'd also like to point out flipping bottles is unlawful, correct?
Jay SpiegelAbsolutely.
Jocelyn RawatOkay. Okay, but I wanted to ask, there are Sazerac products.
Jay SpiegelThere are absolutely Sazerac products, and Sazerac product really steals the show with some of their really coveted whiskies. But there are definitely products from many, many other suppliers out there. So there's there's some cool stuff to look forward to.
Jocelyn RawatAll right. You want to you want to plug any of your Sazerac products that are probably in our lottery? I you just mentioned Pappy Van Winkle.
Matt RayBless your biscuits. That's such a nice opportunity. How could I not? Other than the many fine products of Buffalo Trace, the antique collection, our Weller line of wheated bourbons, Pappy Van Winkle 1792 from Barton, which has won Best Whiskey in the World a couple of times at this point, which we're really proud of because it was named Kentucky's Worst Distillery in the 1990s. And then after we acquired that distillery, we put a lot of work into it. So it's winning awards. We have a lot of stuff that we're really proud of, but also I think that the the strength of the industry is that there are lots of great distilleries that are making incredible products, and it's such a golden age to find great bourbon. Other than the fine products of Buffalo Trace, I'm a huge fan of people like Heaven Hill, another family-owned distillery that I really like.
Jocelyn RawatOkay, so why are these products so allocated? It's just the amount that they're able to produce at these small distilleries.
Matt RayYeah, the magic and pain of bourbon is that I the magic is I can't turn on a spigot to make more. I have to make that whiskey after I grow the corn and cut down a brand new oak tree and char the barrel and season the barrel and then age it for sometimes 20 to 23 years and longer now. And the magic is I can't cheat time. I have to wait. And the pain of bourbon is that I cannot turn on a spigot to make more of it, and we cannot cheat time. Although there are lots of companies that are trying desperately to speed up the aging process, but so far we have found nothing that is more effective than just putting it in a little time capsule and hoping that after 20 years it's better than it was when we put it in.
Jocelyn RawatI suppose sometimes it's not, right?
Matt RayYeah, the myth is that
Lottery Bottles And Stopping Flips
Speakerall whiskey gets better with age and nothing can be further from the truth. Julian Van Winkle's got this great quote where he's like, listen, we'll fill a whiskey barrel to the top. We will wait 23 years and we'll crack it open. And sometimes there's so much angel share, the evaporation that happens naturally in the barrel due to the hot Kentucky summers, that sometimes we open the barrel after 23 years and it's empty. Or what's left isn't good. And he says that sometimes the whiskey just doesn't make the trip.
Jocelyn RawatOh, I didn't know that.
Matt RayYeah, and it's kind of so it's it's magical that like we just wait and wait and wait, and we're really grateful that people will wait in line in rain and heat on Saturdays and spend their free time chasing great products like ours, and we're so grateful for that fandom. But it does mean that due to the popularity and quality and time and highly limited amount of liquid that's left in a barrel after 20 years, because sometimes the evaporation inside that barrel will fill it to the top 53 gallons, and then after 20 years, we can lose up to 80 to 90 percent of what's in that barrel.
Jocelyn RawatOh, wow.
Matt RayAnd that's awful because that means there's a lot less liquor to go around. But what's great about it is that it works like a reduction on your stovetop. So you start with a lot of liquid, and after a lot of evaporation, what is left in that barrel is the most highly concentrated flavors that you could get. And it's this magical, joyful experience to taste these older whiskies for that reason. But it takes time.
Jocelyn RawatYeah. And how much do you owe to Anthony Bourdain?
Matt RayAnthony Bourdain was I mean, I'd like to say it a lot because he's such a treasure and was a joyful, a joyful herald of adventure and having a good time and sharing a good meal. And he loved Bourbon. And I loved him, and so does everyone in the hospitality industry that I know. He was such a hero and such a good representative of a person that worked his whole life in back of house, which is a typically very underappreciated position in hospitality because you you make all this great food and you never see the joy that you bring people on their faces when they eat it. You just see empty plates and you hope they liked it.
Jocelyn RawatYeah. All right. So Anthony Bourdain is a great segue to my last question, which is complete this sentence: The best environment for enjoying bourbon
Allocation Limits And Aging Reality
Jay Spiegelis I would oh man, I would say probably with the ones you are closest with in a relaxed atmosphere. It's the best.
Jocelyn RawatYou know, I'm totally different. I never drink bourbon at home. I I only drink it at fancy occasions and nice restaurants. So to me, it's a it's a going out treat.
Jay SpiegelSounds like you need to stock up on more bourbon.
Jocelyn RawatYou might be right on Saturday morning. Matt?
Matt RayYou know, the best place to enjoy bourbon is on a free tour at Buffalo Trace Distillery in Frankfurt, Kentucky. Come visit us. We give away free liquor every day.
Jocelyn RawatI'm there. Okay. Well, thank you, Matt Ray and Jake Spiegel, for participating in today's Spirited Discussion.
Jay SpiegelThank you, Jocelyn.
Matt RayThank you.
Jocelyn RawatIf there's a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, email us at abs.spirited discussions at Montgomery CountyMD.gov. And thanks for listening.
AnnouncerAlcohol Beverage Services is the alcohol wholesaler
Best Places To Enjoy Bourbon
Announcerof beer, wine, and spirits for Montgomery County. And it operates neighborhood retail stores. ABS also manages alcohol licensing, enforcement, and education for more than 1,000 businesses. Profits are used to pay for resident services that otherwise would be funded by county tax dollars. This podcast is brought to you by County Cable Montgomery, your source for news and information from the Montgomery County government. Connect with us via cable, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube by searching for County Cable Moco.