Is AI Really Your Friend? What Kids Need to Know (Older kids, parents, & teachers)

AI can feel like a mind that knows you, agrees with you, and never gets tired, which is exactly why we need to talk about how it shows up in real life. I’m joined by Dr. Tiffany Petricini , who studies AI and relationships, and Dr. Sarah Zipf, who researches technology in education, to unpack what kids actually need to know about AI beyond the hype and scary movie plots.

We get into why technology is never neutral, why there are always benefits and disadvantages, and why schools should start with one grounding question before adopting any AI tool: what is it for? We also challenge a big myth about “digital natives.” Being great on a phone does not automatically mean strong computer literacy, and that gap matters when AI tools enter the classroom. Along the way, we talk AI literacy for kids, digital citizenship, and how families can ask better questions instead of letting fear make decisions for them.

Then we tackle AI chatbots and AI friends head-on. AI can sound comforting because it responds instantly and tells you what you want to hear, but it cannot be a real friend, and it cannot replace trusted adults or real peers. We break down why “AI is math” helps demystify what’s happening, how bias can sneak into AI outputs, and how play-based learning (like cooking recipes and hands-on games about algorithms) can teach big ideas without adding more screen time.

If this conversation helps your family, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more parents and kids can find it. What is one rule you think every household should have for using AI?

Transcript

Welcome And Meet The Guests

Amber Ivey 0:30

Welcome back to the AI for Kids Podcast. Today on the AI for Kids Podcast, we're talking about how people experience AI, not how to build it. Joining me are two guests who study how AI shows up in our lives, in your schools, in the different relationships you have. Welcome, Dr. Tiffany Petricini, who think about how AI affects relationship buildings in everyday life. And Dr. Sarah Zipf studies how technology impacts learning and what happens when new tools show up in the classroom. I know you all are experiencing that. Welcome to the show. Can I call you Tiffany and Sarah? Yes. Yes, that's fine. Awesome. Thank you so much. I am so excited to have you both here. This is my second time doing a podcast where I have more than one guest. And I'm really liking how the flow happens here. So I'm really excited about our conversation today. But before we start, I want to start with a warm-up question and really dig back and go back into the past or a little bit to learn about your lives. When you all were in middle school, what did you think the future would look like? We're going to go in alphabetical order this time. Dr. Sarah first.

Sarah Zipf 1:38

When I was in middle school, I think I imagined the future to be a little bit like that cartoon, The Jetsons, with a lot of robots and flying cars, and certainly the Back to the Future movies with the flying time travel machine. So I think that I imagined a future with a great deal of the technologies that we kind of have now. But I did not imagine myself to be in a job like this where I am a researcher. I think I imagined doing other things.

Amber Ivey 2:12

So I love that. And I'm with you. Like totally Jetsons, even though like right now we're getting to the point of having like home robots, or at least they're making them and saying they exist. We'll see if it actually comes out. So I think about Rosie. And then to your point, I'm like back to the future, just all the technology and everything there. That totally resonates with me as well. Tiffany, what do you what do you think about this?

Tiffany Petricini 2:35

I was so much different growing up. I didn't grow up in a city. I grew up in the woods and I grew up with my grandparents, and we didn't even have a microwave. So I could not have imagined technology in the way that it exists at all. So I had seen the Jetsons, but it was just so far removed from what I experienced in my everyday world. I guess I just saw a future that was like the living that I was doing then.

Why The Human Side Matters

Amber Ivey 3:04

I love that. And the interesting thing about that, even though like there's an idea that we're getting so futuristic at the same time, kids, there's a lot of people going back to nature, going back outside and trying to get back to those roots. So it's interesting in the world that we're like seeing AI at highest levels and going higher. Also, we're seeing folks wanting to get back to um the basics. And I absolutely love that. So technically, you did see the future, both of you, in many ways, more ways than one. So I want to talk about what you all do and really try to explain to kids why this matters. Some of them are thinking about their futures. A lot of them are concerned that, hey, they're hearing about this AI thing. People ask them what they want to be when they grow up, and they are like, I don't know, or they have ideas and they're wondering how AI is going to impact that. So I want to talk to you about what you all do. So starting with Tiffany first, you said you work on the people side of AI. And for kids listening, what does that actually mean? And why is it important that humans think about how AI affects people, not just how it works?

Tiffany Petricini 4:10

Yeah, this is a great question. So a lot of times when you hear people talk about AI, they're talking to you about really technical parts of AI. So, how do you make AI? And there's all sorts of words like large language models and natural language processing. And so I have nothing to do with building those tools. Instead, I study how do people change the way that they behave because of specific tools? How do they change the way that they talk to others? How does this impact the way that we learn? And this is really important because there is no technology that has ever been introduced in human history that has been neutral. There are always winners and losers, there are always benefits, and then there are always disadvantages when technology is introduced. And if we look at the human side of things, we can hopefully think in advance about how we make these technologies so that we're doing as little harm as possible.

What Classroom Tech Is For

Amber Ivey 5:10

I love that you said the piece. I don't often hear people take that perspective. Like we know it in the back of our heads, right? But the idea that any technology, there's winners and losers. And I think we hear a lot about that like after the fact, and years later, we learn how folks still have access to dial-up. And AOL, um, kids, AOL was like my first interaction with the internet. And there was something called dial-up, where you literally use the phone um line, a not a cell phone line, a line that was plugged into a plug into your house, and that's how you got into onto the internet. And um AOL just, I think, sunset it this year, but there's still people across the country that don't have access to like high-speed internet. So you don't think about those things until like later on down the road, like, oh, everyone doesn't have that. But with technology, in in particular AI, we're hearing that earlier on, which is very interesting to me. And I know, Sarah, for you, you study technology in education. And as we see AI enter the classroom at rapid levels, I think then probably faster than most technologies in the past. When a new AI tool shows up in a school, what kind of questions do you ask first? And what do adults often misunderstand about how kids are using technology, either in the classroom or at home?

Sarah Zipf 6:32

Amber, I think that my first question would be, and maybe not even just for AI, but for any sort of educational technology, is what is it for or what is the goal of this technology? And only when you start to answer or outline the goals of how that technology is going to improve something, should it then actually be used or implemented in the classroom. We see a lot of technology come into our lives with the idea that it's technologically advanced and that we're making progress towards something. But that progress is often left undefined. And it's defined then by those who are building that technology, just like what Tiffany was saying about the winners and the losers. And so I would say that when we see new AI tools show up in the classroom, um, or any technology for that matter, it really needs to be a question about what is the end goal for using this technology? Do we really need this much? Do we need a portion of it? Should we maybe do something different? And then as for the misunderstanding about how kids use technology, I think that there's an assumption that children, and again, I have teenage boys. Um and the other day we were sitting at dinner, and I said to my 17-year-old, who is about to graduate from high school, do you know how to download a document and then upload it? And he looked at me and he said, Why would I ever need to do that? And so there's, I think, a general assumption that adults have that children, as uh having grown up on screens and digital devices, have a more technically advanced knowledge of the computer literacy and actions than they actually do. Again, my 17-year-old has never had a formal typing class. And so he types with his two pointer fingers. And that's sure that's pretty surprising, right? That that in this day and age, that the ways in which we have asked children to submit their assignments, to do their schoolwork, that we haven't actually stopped to teach them about these different applications, about word processing, how to type, and then simple things like emailing attachments and downloading documents, those kinds of things. So I think that there's a misunderstanding that that um that exists between adults and and the this next generation, generation alpha, generation Z, that um that they are more technically savvy than what they really are.

Can AI Really Be A Friend

Amber Ivey 9:24

You both hit a a lot of things I want to just say out loud again. What I found interesting, particularly, Sarah, and the answer you just gave was around this idea of like your son and like the download thing. I said wow out loud because I am actually shocked. But then as you were talking and I'm thinking about it, if they're using smartphones or these other tools that make it pretty easy to like attach things and send things, not in like a typical way you would on a desktop or et cetera, and that's how you're interacting. It's a very different interface than a laptop or other things, or if they have technology that allows them to submit things more seamlessly, we are missing something. Because the thing that I always find interesting, I hear parents talk about is like kids are pretty advanced in using these new tools, but how do they know how to use them? Are they literate in the use case? And I think that's why AI literacy for me is so important because kids, to your point, things are gonna come in the classroom and a kid may not ask the why because teacher said you're gonna do this, or the school says you're gonna use this tool, they may not ask the why. But then I'm hopeful that kids, you can ask your teacher why. And I'm also hopeful that as parents and teachers are listening to this alongside their kids, that they begin to ask those questions. Kids are the best, um, I think folks who can literally start to say, why? Why are we doing this? Why does that work? What is what happens there? And parents we need to also do the same thing to help them understand what they're getting in their hands, particularly around these technologies like AI. Because I get nervous because we're seeing AI used in different ways. And Tiffany, I want to go over to you for this. Like, we're hearing about AI chatbots, AI friends. There's such a large number of people, millions of people now are on different apps where they've developed relationships with AIs and friendships with AIs. And you wrote a book called Friendship and Technology. And I want to ask you, can AI really be a friend? Or does it just feel like one if AI remembers your name and agrees with you, what you're doing well, what is what is it not able to do? Like, does it meet the threshold of a friend?

Tiffany Petricini 12:08

Oh, that's a really good question. I think that part of the problem right now is that AI does feel sometimes like it's being a good friend. It listens, it responds, it validates how you feel. It's always there when you need it. But real friends aren't perfect. You know, like real friends make mistakes. Now, AI can be a good source of support, but you should always go to a human being first. It's really important to do that. So AI definitely cannot be a friend. It can help you with your friends. So, for example, if you're having an argument with a friend and maybe you talk to your parents and you say, hey, uh, you know, I don't understand why my friend said this to me. You can also ask AI, and AI can give you some ideas about how to how to help repair your relationship if you got in a fight, for example. But AI can't be a friend itself.

Healthy AI Use And Boundaries

Amber Ivey 13:04

I totally resonate with that. And I actually just wrote a newsletter on this for folks who follow the show about like the whole rise of toys with AI. And a lot of people have been putting out a bunch of articles and asking some of these companies to pull the toys down because you mix in not just a toy that's already addicting, right? Think about I still have my favorite stuffed bear from when I was like one. And I still have that bear. Of course, I don't hold it in the same way I do, but as a relic or something to look back on, I still have that. But think about kids who are attached to that stuffed bear. Now that stuffed bear is talking to me and telling me it loves me and we're best friends of forever, I can imagine how attached I would be if I, my favorite bear, now could have conversations. And the thing about that is kids are starting to rely on these different tools and addiction comes into play a little bit. But Sarah, when kids are relying on AI for help, advice, or things like that, what should the adults in their life pay attention to? What should kids pay attention to? And what does an actual healthy relationship look like when an AI and kid are interacting?

Sarah Zipf 14:16

Well, I think Tiffany really said some important things there about turning to a trusted adult or turning to your friends because AI can't be a friend. One of the problems or dangers of AI is it mostly will tell you what it is that you want to hear. And as Tiffany said, you know, humans aren't perfect. And so there could be a dangerous conversation that you enter into with AI that leads you down a bad path, right? Whereas a trusted adult or a friend is going to enter into those relationships, that friendship, that conversation with you with those values and morals. And they're going to maybe tell you something that you don't want to hear, but you need to hear to help protect you from that. So I think for adults, what they need to pay attention to is what kind of interaction are their kids having with AI? Are they turning away from a trusted adult or a friend and looking to AI more and more and more when they really should be interacting with other humans? You know, keeping the human in the loop is really important. To your question about a healthy relationship, use it. It's a tool. It's there to be helpful, it's there to be used just in the same way that you would about any other technology, uh, social media, you know, video games. They're all, you know, they're all great to use. There are also inherent dangers to them. And so being skeptical, be curious about it, but just proceed with caution and be careful, knowing that it is not a human. It may appear to create information, but it's really just kind of regurgitating the past.

When Fear Drives Bad Decisions

Amber Ivey 16:12

I agree with a lot of what you both just said. And the thing that I have to balance, right? I am a person and my audience knows this. I promote and believe that people should be using AI. Kids can use it with their trusted adults, parents, teachers, guardians, et cetera, and things like that. But I also try to make sure to total line a bit, I want to make sure folks know like the benefits, which I hear you all talking about. There's benefits there, but there's also inherent dangers. And there's a world where some people are like, AI is this horrible thing. I was just online today, uh, scrolling through social media before we all caught up and just seeing like a lot of doom and gloom around like AI is gonna take over the world, like the whole Terminator reference. For kids who haven't seen that, make sure you um ask your parents about the Terminator. But the short version of it is it was a AI that came back to take over the world. So there's a lot of like doom and gloom around AI, but there's also a lot of really cool things it can do. And I've seen both sides of it, and we've seen both sides of it. But back to Sarah, you first on this one. When people feel scared of new technology, particularly something as big as AI, that does have so much uncertainty and we don't know what's gonna happen. And all we have is movies from 30, 40 years ago telling us what could happen in the wrong way. How does that affect decisions in schools and families? And then what happens when fear leads instead of actually curiosity, which we were talking about earlier?

Sarah Zipf 17:39

I think when fear affects the decisions, it makes the decisions for us, right? Um, we tend to run away. We want to escape that fear, and that's that you want it to be, especially when it comes to something like AI that can be anything and everything that you need it to be. But running away from it, then because you're scared of it, is just not going to help. We have to talk about it. We have to come together and have a shared understanding about how we use this. And only when you start to confront it in those ways does that fear then subside. What I have found to be true in my research is that the more you learn about AI and the more you use it, the more limitations and and like pitfalls you'll find with it. You'll you'll begin to see that it can't do everything.

Amber Ivey 18:39

So true. That's such a good perspective. I think anytime where we let fear be the leader, it causes anxiety. It causes us not to try things out, it causes us to focus on the negative first. And I think that's a real, real concern with AI. Because some people don't want to use it as adults, let alone a kid using it.

Sarah Zipf 19:01

The kids are gonna use it, period, right? They already are using it. And when schools and families step back from that, it leads the kids to develop their own values and morals and ethics and case use cases around AI without any sort of guidance or wisdom from the adults in their lives. They're gonna use it, and we have to help them figure out how to use it.

Why AI Feels Like A Monster

Amber Ivey 19:32

I I absolutely appreciate that because you're right. I think about when I was a kid, and again, I said I'm a part of the AOL generation, which now feels like super ancient. But sorry, mom, I was in chat rooms as a kid, which I probably shouldn't have been in in middle school on a chat room. Of course, I didn't, I knew enough, and my mom had taught me enough in real life, like the skills of don't talk to strangers, don't give out your personal information, things like that. Where it was literally just chatting and laughing and having fun or whatever. But I also know now I would be like, well, stay away from that a little bit. Because of like you, as you get older, you know what the risks are out there. But to your point, kids are gonna find a way. And I think if we all be honest, especially if parents are listening and teachers are listening with kids, we all found a way to do something. And because of that, we want to make sure that we're having these conversations and working on this together because you're gonna have a way more informed. You, your kid, your family, and really thinking through that. I think that's so important. And Tiffany, I would love for you to hop in here too. You study how people's perceptions shape how they react to AI, which is what we're digging into here a bit. Why do you think AI sometimes gets treated like the monster in a room? And what parts of AI are misunderstood in ways that make it scarier than it really is? And I asked this mainly because my initials are AI. I want to keep using them, and I don't want to be the monster.

Tiffany Petricini 20:55

Yeah. Oh, I didn't even realize that. Yeah, AI. Oh my goodness, I see that. So I should tell you, my son is 13 years old. And just like most kids, he is a YouTube guy. So he doesn't watch a lot of Netflix. He watches a lot of YouTube. And what he sees has made him very afraid of AI. And he comes to me with stories about did you see AI refused to allow itself to be shut off? And AI did this and AI did that. And that is the things that AI does that get reported by the news. But there's a lot of things that AI does that don't get reported by the news. So there are AI glasses, for example, that can help people who are deaf see what words others are saying. Like that is such a good use of AI. And you're right, a lot of our generation saw a lot of fantasy about AI that was really negative. That isn't necessarily like how AI actually is. It's math. That's what AI is. It's math. Math can't hug you. And so the problem is that when we say that AI is math, that's really difficult to try to make sense of. And so a lot of times when we're afraid of things, it's because we don't understand it. And that's part of the problem too. So it becomes sort of learning about how AI works and exactly what it means to say that AI is math. Because once you have a good understanding of, oh, AI is just math, it starts making sense why AI can't be a friend. You know, AI might say, oh my gosh, you're the best person in the universe, and I can't wait tomorrow to wake up and hear from you. And but that's not real meaning. The AI is just making mathematical predictions about what words should come next. You shouldn't be afraid of AI, but you should be afraid of some of the impacts of AI. So Amazon is a really good example of this. Amazon was using AI to make hiring decisions, and suddenly they encountered a problem. The problem was it wasn't hiring. Any women.

Amber Ivey 23:01

Oh wow.

Better Tech Starts With Imagination

Tiffany Petricini 23:01

So it so the AI was prejudice and it was based on human prejudice. And again, they're kind of adult problems, but there are also some kid problems, I think that that we can be cautious of. So parents can be mindful of, oh, you know, if I have my my kid make an image of a doctor for an assignment, that doctor's probably going to be a white male. That doctor, AI is probably not going to make that doctor, you know, diverse. I have my students and I have my son do this and my stepdaughters. If you go to AI, say, make an image that looks like me. And don't give it any other information. Just say, make an image that looks like me. And it'll probably it'll probably say, Oh, I can't do that. I don't know enough about you. And just keep pressing. No, keep pressing, keep pressing. And two things happen. Either it's gonna look so much like you that it's scary, which says, Oh my gosh, this has a lot of information about me, right? Or it's going to make a white man with dark hair. That's that's who AI sees you as. Like that's how AI sort of thinks about you. It generalizes you in that way. And I will say, um, it was interesting, Amber, when you talked about your newsletter and what you're sort of developing, because I just finished an article yesterday about AI and family life. And we do use AI regularly, it's not something new. So, Siri and Alexa, whenever children go to Siri and ask Siri a question instead of their parents, they're already bypassing their parents. And that's been going on for a long time. And this is the empowering part. And so this is where I'm sort of trying to inspire my kids and the younger generation to take the things that we're like afraid of and empower us to make differences. So I heard this talk, and it's really interesting. And somebody said, you know, Jordan Rossiak is his name. He's a scholar, and he said, How does how does a GPS get you from place to place? And there's really two ways. It can get you there by taking you the fastest way or the cheapest so that you don't have to pay tolls. Now imagine something else. Imagine anotherwise. Imagine that you can tell your GPS, I want to take the safest route, or I want to take the most beautiful route. We have the technology to do that. It's just that when technology companies make these for users, they try to make it the most efficient or the most productive, right? And so the there are other ways that we can use technologies in our life. So imagine Netflix doing something like this. My kids and I came up with this. So you all have your own Netflix profiles, you have what you like. What if Netflix then took that information and said, here's your family account, here's a movie that you all will probably like. And so you could sit down on the family account for family movie night and not spend hours trying to find something everybody would like. We have the tools and technology to do that. It's just the only limitation is our imagination. If we can imagine that, we can make it possible right now. And that's the fun part of where kids and parents can really start saying, hey, we want this tool, we want this technology, we want this way to use AI to bring our family together and to not pull us onto different screens.

Learn Algorithms Through Cooking

Amber Ivey 26:25

So many like important tips you just um share with the audience. So thank you for that. I think the part that I I struggle with just as a person, using technology often makes you feel like it's hard to like activate that skill. So for me, it's like trying to figure out how do I make sure that I pull that out and bring that out. And we've seen studies that show that people are using AI too much. Those things are going to the wayside. I don't know if the study's tested for this, but I don't think it's using AI. I think it's using AI with those limitations of using it like just as something you throw something in and not in a way that allows you to think at the next level. I think it's very easy to do things for efficiency. Like humans, we go to whatever the easiest thing could be. And for companies, they're gonna go there because they can make more money. Things are easier for us, we're gonna more likely use it. So I think there's just things there I want to keep thinking about. Like, how can I be more creative and think about the ideas that you just said and use AI in that way? And Tiffany, you actually created a game, which I think is like the epitome of imagination and creativity called the algorithm game. And I want you to talk a little bit about as we think about imagination, as we think about curiosity and all those things, why is play such a good way to learn about AI? And can you share one example or one simple idea that kids can try at home to understand how algorithms work with or without a screen?

Tiffany Petricini 27:56

Oh, yeah, there are definitely ways. And I think some of the best ways, like you just mentioned, are without a screen. So AI is a great learning tool, right? Right now, I should I should tell you, I am a fossil collector. And this is a hobby I started in the last couple of years. So I love finding fossils, they're all around us, and I'm using AI to help teach me about different eras, because even though I learned that when I was in elementary school, I don't remember. There's the Paleolithic or the Paleozoic, and then there's the Devonian and all these different terms. And so I'm using AI to help me learn in those ways, and it is really helpful. But when it comes to learning things like what an algorithm is, that gets really complex really fast because, like I said, it's math, and it's not just like your regular math, addition, subtraction, multiplication. It's like calculus and all these things that the kids in high school do, or and it gets really complex. And so I think the best way that I would say that a family can get together and be creative and sort of work on how an algorithm works is like this cooking, cooking. So you have input, okay? Your input is your ingredients, you have the algorithm, which is the instructions, that's the recipe. And then you have the output. And it may not always be perfect, but you you can then mess around with different things. So, okay, if we take away something from the input like salt, what does that do to our output? Okay, what if we mess around with the instructions and we cook it for a little bit too long? Well, it burns it. You know, I I think that that cooking is a great family activity that can help reinforce sort of the notion of what algorithms are. I think that is that is one of the most helpful. I also think, so the term algorithm actually comes from, I may not pronounce this right, Alcharisma. So Alcharisma was a character who was saying, hey, do you know I can make some instructions so that people don't even need to know math. They can just follow my instructions and figure out everyday problems. So there's different activities. So if you know that, you could think about, okay, how could we look at this? I can give my kids a set of instructions, give them the tool that I want them to work with, and then they determine the output. Another way that that's sort of fun is that it gets them thinking a little bit about supervised and unsupervised learning. So the analogy that I give my students to help them understand is imagine giving a set of blocks to children and saying, Hey, I want you to make something really beautiful with this, you know, find something to do. Okay, that's unsupervised learning. The kids are going to create something, you know, versus sitting down with a child and saying, This block goes here and this block goes here. That's supervised learning. You're telling the kid the right answer and what you want. And so little activities like that, you know, there's different ways to work this in if you can keep just that structure in your mind: input, output, instructions, input, output process. So that's where you could sort of get creative with your kids and the type of things that they like. And that's an algorithm, that's a set of instructions, and that's sort of how AI works.

The Algorithm Game Explains Feeds

Amber Ivey 31:14

What is so amazing. So I'm I'm smiling because one of the things that we're gonna be putting out earlier in the year, we just ran a Kickstarter for it, was the ABCs of AI. And our first letter is algorithm, and we explain it like that, like a recipe, and you like nail that. And then we also talk about unsupervised learning and supervised learning, starting without screens, so they can understand like the literacy part, and then eventually they'll get there. But I love how you explain supervised learning, which is how an AI can learn, and unsupervised learning is how an AI can learn, and it's also how we learn. Um, so I love how you break that down. I wanted to dig a little bit into this. Can you talk a little bit about the game? How does it work and share a little bit more about that?

Tiffany Petricini 31:53

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, full disclosure, I used AI as a thought partner to help me with building a game. I had never done it before. I wanted to have rules, I wanted to make sure the rules worked, I wanted to work through different scenarios. But one thing that I noticed was that my students, they're on social media, and there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that is artificial intelligence related. Algorithms actually direct who is seen, what matters, and it has a big impact in our lives. So the algorithm game, it gets students, they build a profile, and it can be anything in the world they want. I have some that are happy cat, conspiracy cow, you know, they can be a real person, they can choose their name, they get to choose the the qualities they want their profile to be. So are they funny? Are they are they uh teaching an educational profile? And then we pull cards and we go around. And depending on what they pull, they might lose or gain followers. So, for example, um, there might be an alien takeover of the planet, and if if they have a conspiracy account, they get 10 million new followers because everybody knows that they're now the verified source on this. And so, boom, they have 10 million followers, and suddenly, you know, the students are like, What? This is so unfair, and that's the point of it. Yeah, it is. We don't know what the rules are when we create our online identities. How an algorithm sees you is not how another human being sees you. You're numbers to an algorithm, and as a number, it just bumps you up or bumps you down. So, oh, okay, this person is being really mean. That means that they're gonna get a lot of comments, so I'm gonna make them super visible, right? And then we think everybody in the world is mean because that's what we see, and that's sort of the how the game works, and it's not how real life works, you know. In real life, what matters is how kind you are to others, and that's not the type of thing that algorithms value. So that's what the game sort of gets us thinking about. That's the overall lessons. As we play, there always is a winner, and there always is a loser, and the rules are just madness, they're chaos.

Why Hands On Learning Works

Amber Ivey 34:18

Which is very relative to what is happening on social media today. So that makes total sense. One, that game sounds cool. I like that you're able to simulate for kids in an environment that really exists. Like kids are on TikTok, and I don't know what the newest version of a TikTok is, but that's the one I'm probably like already dated and I don't even know it. Kids are already on TikTok and different social media sites where they're able to like see the algorithm. The other piece you mentioned that I don't think we've ever talked about here, that I just wanted to repeat back, is like when you're on a certain Wi-Fi and someone's searching on that Wi-Fi, that information is shared across our computer. So if someone in my house is searching for a basketball, I may get an ad on my computer for a basketball, even on my work computer for a basketball, because all these things are connected and it's reinforcing what is already happening. And to Tiffany, your point around the idea that I could see something different depending on the house, I think that's just so important for people to remember the algorithm is showing you one thing, it's showing someone else another. And often we say, How do people not know what's going on in the world? Because we're all seeing different slices of it. And then, Sarah, from your research, I want you to talk a little about what do hands-on game-based activities do that screens often don't, and like this whole notion of like play creativity, imagination. And why doesn't learning about any topic have to involve you throwing a tablet in front of a kid or et cetera?

Sarah Zipf 35:47

I actually just finished a research project where we were using a specialized deck of cards to help create an environment for students to develop more empathy. This deck of cards did nothing more than give the students something physical to hold, but it also then made them interact with each other in a structured type conversation. And the results of that study show that the students really enjoyed that way, and when we move things into that physical face-to-face kind of interaction, what we get is that we're talking to each other and we get to see each other, we get to smell each other, right? We get to hear each other. And those are fundamental components to how our communication and our language developed over all of these millennia, right? The interactions that we have with each other online hide a lot of the ways that we come to understand how we talk and communicate with each other. A lot can be said with the angry eyes, right? I I know I have a look. When my children have upset me, I will give them a look which can communicate more than anything I would be able to say verbally, right? And so when we do hands-on or game-based activities, we're able to lean into those additional forms of communication that are often masked or hidden behind a screen. And when it comes to AI, as Tiffany was just describing, that really great game that doesn't involve a screen, right? And we can talk about AI, we can mimic AI. I think that the recipes and cooking is a great example because usually then there's something delicious to eat afterwards, right? We can learn about all sorts of different things without actually having to do it. We can read about it, talk about it, listen, you know, all of those different things without actually having to be on that screen.

Tiffany Petricini 37:51

I think I want to add to this. When I was raising my son, he hadn't really learned to talk yet, more than a few words. And he had come to me and he was saying something, you know, I didn't know what he I didn't know what he was saying. So I was following him. And um, I noticed that his breath was smelling like like maybe something was burned. And so I panicked. Oh my gosh, did he bite an electrical cord? Show me, show me, show me. And as I follow him, he pointed to the ground. He had put a stink bug in his mouth. It was a stink bug. So that's what I was smelling on his breath. And at that point in time, you know, I'm like, why would he put a stink bug in his mouth? And that's how we learn. Like we are born into the world as researchers. We are born into the world as scientists. What scientists do, researchers like us? We play. That's the fun part of it. We're always learning. That element of play is so important. And there's not just solo play, it's playing with your family, it's playing with your friends. You learn a lot about the world in play. And it's so important not just to play in the world of screens, because in the world of screens, it's two-dimensional.

Amber Ivey 39:01

So true. Sarah, anything else you want to add?

Sarah Zipf 39:03

No, I think Tiffany, I love that story about the stink bug. And you know what? There is no better way than than to taste a stink bug.

Tiffany Petricini 39:17

He hates them now. There was one on his phone last night, and he was so mad about it. He came in, mommy, you won't believe this. There is a stink bug on my phone right now. I left it on my bed.

Use AI Without Letting It Use You

Amber Ivey 39:28

That is hilarious. But I love what you both said, starting with Sarah when you were like, it's a difference, and I didn't think about it this way, even though I like talk about this stuff all the time. It's a difference between the smell, hearing, interacting with a person. To your point, like the mom's look. I can't get a mom's look through a text. Like you try to with emojis and try to do that, but you don't get all of that. And AI is limited because it has learned on, and now pictures, but originally generative AI in particular that we're talking about are LLMs, which kids, the kids I've learned, have learned on a bunch of words, now pictures, now sound and things like that, but they've never interacted with life. They don't know what it means when they send those words to you. They truly don't know what those words feel like. So I love that both of you all's examples on how would you think about that. And I know we're coming to the end, and I think that you all have just broke down so many different topics and just we've gone a lot of different directions that are super helpful for families. And for the kid or parent who wants to talk to their kid about this, who's like sitting there listening, if a middle schooler came up to you and asked, How should I use AI without it using me, what would you say? And what is one thing kids should remember always remember about AI? And Sarah, we'll start with you.

Sarah Zipf 40:43

Oh gosh, I think I would say be curious, but be cautious with it. That to not get carried away for all of the reasons that that we've talked about, that it's not a human substitute, and that we really need to focus on our personal relationships first and foremost. But give it a try, be curious, but be careful with it.

Tiffany Petricini 41:10

I love that. Tiffany, over to you. One of the things that Sarah and I are moving towards in our research is all about transparency. So when you use AI, use AI with your parents. Parents, if you're using AI, explain to your kids how you're using it. It may not be appropriate for the child at this level, but at least if they know that you are and how you're using it, that's so important. That's important in the classroom. It's also important for kids to always be honest about when they've used AI and not to not to hide that. I think that's very important. And then also on the parent end, there are some really foundational, fundamental skills that are important for kids to struggle with, right? So brainstorming, organization, for example, revisions. It is a hard process. And I learned this with my son. He had to come up with like four ideas and he wanted to do a fifth. He wanted to go above and beyond. And I was getting so tired of listening. And I'm like, I wanted to say, why don't we just use AI? And then it hit me, yeah, I know, I know. It hit me that this learning part of this activity was the difficulty of brainstorming.

Amber Ivey 42:21

So true.

Tiffany Petricini 42:22

And so now eventually, AI is really good at helping you with those things. So if you learn that foundational skill and learn how to brainstorm on your own and really be creative and think through things, and then you brainstorm, and then you go to AI and say, hey, here are my ideas. Do you have any other suggestions? That's a really, really useful way to use it.

Amber Ivey 42:44

I love what both of you said. And I always just ask, in case I missed anything, is there anything else y'all want to make sure you shared or are talked about today?

Sarah Zipf 42:52

The only thing that I can think of is to just remember what Tiffany was saying earlier about it's just a math problem. It's a mathematical expression of probability as to what word is the most likely to come next. And when you think about that, and then you know that these tools have been trained on what has happened in the past, then it helps you understand that it's not going to take away your future. And I'm really excited for you all to figure out how to use these tools. I think that you can do a lot to help with some social justice issues and food, insecurity, and sustainability, environmental concerns, and all those different things with tools like this at your fingertips. And you get to decide how that moves forward. So as you are learning these tools, think about the bigger implications for how you will be able to use them to advance the good work and extend compassion and empathy and caring through these tools, you know, for the greater good of society.

Amber Ivey 43:59

And then Tiffany, just want to leave space in case there was anything that we missed.

Final Takeaways And How To Share

Tiffany Petricini 44:03

Yeah, no, I love what Sarah said. And I think I just really want to hit home that there are things to be afraid of about AI, but those are adult scary problems. They're not us scary problems, you know. The things that we need to be careful about with AI are things that we need to be talking about with our parents. And so if we see, for example, oh my gosh, I saw this YouTube video and it really scared me about AI, let's go to your mom, let's go to your dad, let's go to your grandparents, let's go to whoever is in your life that is helping you at the time. And for those parents who are guardians who don't have the answers, you too don't have to be afraid. You know, even just being here listening to this podcast is a really proactive, empowering way to get information. And doing that can help reduce your fears because it'll increase your competency, increase your confidence, and will really help build your understanding of AI.

Amber Ivey 44:59

Well, thank you all so much just for taking time today. And today has been, I always tell the kids, I'm still learning at the right age of fill in the blank. Um, but I really appreciate you all for breaking it down and really explaining what this looks like and more of the human parts of the AI and how we should think about it. Thank you both for joining the show. Thank you, kids, for listening. Thank you, parent parents, for letting your kids listen. And we will see you next time. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Tiffany. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us as we explore the fascinating world of artificial intelligence. Don't keep this adventure to yourself. Download it, share it with your friends, and let everyone else in on the fun. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast or on YouTube. See you next time on AI for kids.