The Sea Squirt Effect: Tech Tales of Transition
Welcome to "The Sea Squirt Effect" podcast! I'm Alla Shashkina, and in this series, I interview individuals in technology who have transitioned into, out of, or within the tech industry.
You might be wondering why this podcast is called “The Sea Squirt Effect.” The name comes from the fascinating sea squirts—creatures that constantly move and evolve until they stop and begin to digest their brain. This concept of continual growth and evolution has guided my life decisions, driven by the question of what story I will tell my grandchildren. I strive to ensure each decision contributes to my evolution, personal growth, and the betterment of the world.
I want to inspire people in tech to embrace the sea squirt effect, whether in their next career move or in making life-changing decisions. I interview individuals with compelling stories—those who have been in tech for a long time and those who transitioned from completely different industries. These are people who took bold steps to evolve and make the world a better place.
The Sea Squirt Effect: Tech Tales of Transition
Jeanne Williams: A Tech Veteran's Adventures Across 103 Countries, Overcoming Bias, and Career Transitions
Imagine journeying through 103 countries, each with its own unique story and adventure. On this episode of the Sea Squirt Effect podcast, we're thrilled to introduce Jeanne, a tech industry veteran whose wanderlust has taken her to the far corners of the globe, with Tunisia next on her list. Jeanne shares her methodical yet spirited approach to choosing her travel destinations, recounting a memorable visa hiccup that led to an unexpected adventure. Whether she's traveling solo or with family, Jean's passion for exploration is infectious, and her tales of discovery are sure to inspire your next journey.
Our conversation takes a deeper turn as Jeanne opens up about the subtle biases that women encounter in the tech industry. Through personal anecdotes, she reveals how unconscious bias can manifest, even in spaces that seem progressive, and the ongoing struggle for diversity and inclusion within tech roles. We also discuss the intense work rhythms that can lead to burnout, particularly for those new to the field. Jeanne's candid account of grappling with burnout during the COVID-19 pandemic serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of recognizing and addressing mental health.
In the final segment, Jeanne shares her courageous decision to shift careers in pursuit of flexibility and balance. With the support of friends and family, she learned to prioritize her well-being and find joy outside of a demanding tech career. This episode is a testament to the power of self-awareness and intentionality in career choices. To cap it all off, Jeanne extends an open invitation for listeners to connect with her on LinkedIn, fostering a sense of community and support. Don't miss this enriching conversation that blends globetrotting adventures, tech industry insights, and invaluable life lessons.
Connect to Jeanne on LinkedIn.
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Music credits & copyright by "Odin v olen'yem parke" ("Один В Оленьем Парке").
Hi there, I'm Alasha Ashkina. Welcome to the C-Squared Effect podcast. In this podcast, I interview people in technology who have transitioned into, out of or within the tech industry. My hope is for you to get inspired by these tech tales of transition. In this third episode, I'm sitting down with Jean Williams, my former colleague. Jean is a true tech veteran. She spent the last 20 years in big tech and shares her stories of transition between companies and out of big tech into self-employment. She's such an inspiring woman in tech, who also loves to travel and visited 103 countries so far and counting. We dive deep into burnout and mental health, as well as women in tech topics.
Speaker 1:Tune in and enjoy this episode. Hi, jean, so nice to have you at the Sea Squirt Effect podcast. You are my third guest and I am super excited to have you here and have our listeners listen to your story and learn a little bit about you. So welcome to the Sea Squirt Effect podcast, thank you. Thanks so much for having me Awesome. So the first question that I want to kick off this conversation is what makes you feel alive?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think one thing that's always, always just given me the most energy and just different perspective on life is travel energy and just different perspective on life to travel. And so I think I did my first trip when I was 15 years old, and a volunteer trip. And I remember when I got on my first bus by myself when I was 18, when I studied abroad, and I was by myself and I was like I have to figure this out on my own. I mean back then, there own. I mean back then there was no google maps, there was no phones. It was just you're just going with it, I think, just the idea of that challenge and exploring other things out there and just seeing the world and the beauty and so many different things. So I am up to 103 countries wow, 103 countries.
Speaker 1:That is is amazing. So what's your first country and what's your last country on that list?
Speaker 2:So my very first country I went to was Mexico, and well, the last country for this year will be Tunisia. I'm going to Tunisia in September with some friends.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:So that will be coming up.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. What's your goal for in terms of the list that you want to get to a certain number of countries you wanted to visit?
Speaker 2:I mean, I have a spreadsheet and I first it was just a column for myself and there's countries and territories, um, so I, I actually combined, but you know both of them, both of them together, for example, turks and Caicos, or you know, uh, I combine all of that together and, uh, my goal is just to go and see new places. So sometimes when I want to plan a family trip, I'll just go to the spreadsheet and be like, where have we not gone yet? But then obviously limits, like I'm going to see so many places. So now I've added a column for where my husband and I have gone together this was before I had a kid and now I have a column for where my son's gone, and so then it's just kind of fun. So now I get to check off more on the list, uh and uh, I don't know if I have a goal besides just keep exploring new things, and then, if I've already done it, then I get to go, you know, introduce my son to it and then if I've already.
Speaker 2:We've all already done it then just uh, what's something new and off the beaten path to check out? I love renting a car and somewhere and just driving around and and you know, seeing what you can find nice, nice.
Speaker 1:So how do you decide what country you want to visit? Do you have a map where you just blindfolded and like turning around and there's points on it, on the map, and say I'm gonna go to this?
Speaker 2:country. So now that I have a five-year-old, I think there's some limitations. So I'll go to the spreadsheet and like, sometimes Europe is just easier to get to from New York. I know that. You know, flying to Asia is just I just actually just got back from flying from Asia and it's a really long trip and so that's kind of hard to do it as a full you know full family.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean the last one, one trip we did together we, we all went to Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, and so I just look on the list and be like, where haven't I gone? And then I start researching, and then I've got friends who like to travel as much as I do and and so I'm like, what do you recommend out of out of these that I haven't gone to? And so, nice, awesome. Have you been to russia? No, we actually, my husband and I had a, our flights booked, all ready to go, um, and then he's from honduras and his visa got denied, and so the very last minute we had to, we had to find a new. Uh, we had to find a new trip because they wouldn't, wouldn't allow, wouldn't allow him in. So we had to pivot. So, but I really wanted, I really wanted to go, so yeah you end up going or you want to go, let me know.
Speaker 1:I'll give you some recommendation where to go, where not to go 100 we'll hang you up on that, yeah. Awesome. Dean and I we kind of crossed paths during my career in tech and we didn't get to work together. I guess a lot directly, but we've had a chat and connection before we got to work together. Dan, why don't you just tell?
Speaker 2:us a little bit about how you got into tech and what really made you want to work in tech industry. So my answer will not be what I maybe is the driven, what most people have. I mean, I had been living in Australia and been traveling around and I remember I came back and I was like I have to get a real job now and I wanted somewhere where I could be that, where I can be barefoot, not be in a cubicle and, you know, not have a nine to five. That was my original goal. And then I was. This was in 2002, 2003.
Speaker 2:And the market was pretty hard then and it was hard even to get even a waitress job. And so I was a waitress and a bartender. And then my mom ran into someone that I used to play soccer with, who was at one of the bigger tech companies, and she said why don't you send me over a resume? And so I'm trying to put together a resume and my oldest sister had worked in tech and was like you have to mention ROI, just make sure you mention ROI.
Speaker 2:I had no idea but I put I put it together and I interviewed and I remember the interviewer, just we just talked about running the whole interview, and then, and then and then I got the job and those were the days when the interviews didn't last for like 12 rounds, like three rounds, 12 or 15 people, right exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:It was a different, different world, although it was an interesting experience, because they every they hired a group of people every Monday and then they fired a group of people every Thursday, so I used to call it a survivor. I didn't have, I didn't even think I had, I didn't have a internet at home at that time, I so I used to call it a survivor. I didn't have, I didn't even think I had, I didn't have a internet at home at that time, I so I'd have an email all ready to go to say that I was voted off the island and getting ready to hit some send on Thursday in case, uh, you know, they let you know. People from my cohort go um, but I, I survived. I didn't get voted off the island and ended up working full-time. Honestly, it was just a career path that fell into my lap. I was a psychology major and had been interested in do I want to be a sports psychologist? Do I want to? You know which path I want to go in.
Speaker 2:And then I talked to some sports psychologists, and they were like you will just become a PE teacher, and so I had some people who were like you don't want to do this path, and so it really fell into my lap nice.
Speaker 1:So what was your focus in tech like? What area did you need to work in?
Speaker 2:yeah, so through. I've been in tech for over, you know, over 20 years and I've checked out a variety of divisions along the way and a variety of roles. Where I started moving more towards was more of the program management and operations. So I first had started off in more advertising and digital you know, the digital advertising world and then in 2015, I joined AI ML and joined that that world, which is obviously really big now and the angle that I came from more was, you know, how do we get things done? And so working with engineers and product managers and building teams to figure out how we launch products.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So at the beginning of the conversation, you mentioned that you wanted a real job, right? So did that feel like a real job, right? Um? So did that feel like a real job to you when you started doing it?
Speaker 2:I mean in the very early days it was. Everyone was together, they were all friends, we worked together, we lived together. Um, it was a very surreal world microfit kitchens full of candy and pizzas being ordered to the office. It was no mindfulness events in the afternoon no, I don't know if it necessarily was reality. I mean, I look back on it fondly. It was an interest. You know it was like a different interesting time, but it's it was definitely a bubble of of a time for.
Speaker 1:So what did the highlight of your career look like? I mean, you spent a big chunk of your career in one of the biggest tech companies, right? So how did the highlight of that big chunk of your career look like?
Speaker 2:I think what really drove me and the passion and even the people that I stay in contact to this, you know, to this day was working with people. What I loved about it I love just the people I worked with and working together to get things done, and I think in the very beginning there was which makes sense your company, the company is smaller, it could be scrappy. You all can come together, it's collaborative, and sometimes there's things that you've just never done before and you're all just going to come together and figure it out Right. And so I think the highlight was just, you know, coming together with a bunch of people to just figure out what can we do, what you know? How do we get this launched? What does this look like? We've been tasked to do this. How do we make it happen? I build a lot of good friendships, bonds with people. I reported to people, my colleagues, people that reported to me, and so there's a fair network of people that I stay in contact with because I think we just loved coming together. At one point.
Speaker 1:We enjoyed working together and getting things done Amazing. So like a big emphasis on like working with people collaborating on something that hasn't been done before and sort of figuring out brainstorming like how can we achieve something that hasn't been achieved before, that sounds really fun. As a woman in tech with 20 years experience, I guess the world back then looked different than it is than it looks now. I was the first female engineer in my team when I joined my company and for me the experience being a female engineer was very interesting because not only I was a female engineer, I was also six months pregnant and coming from a different country, like relocating from Russia through Germany, through France and Paris into the Bay Area. There was a lot of different things for me, but for you, how did that experience look like being a being woman in tech back then?
Speaker 2:You know it evolved. I think I first started working in engineering in 2005. So I was in ads before, more on the customer service side, and for sure I would be the only woman in these meetings and sometimes meetings that I was leading. There was ups and downs through the process, I think. Even with time.
Speaker 2:I think there was some things I still am disillusioned by in the sense of how is some of this still happening, especially in bigger companies, where you think that there would be more progress? I don't think I'll sugarcoat it. I think sometimes it's hard and I think there's sometimes just unconscious bias. Unconscious bias, even you know, going on maternity leave and people saying I'm taking over Jeannie's team and it's like, well, you're not taking over my team, you know where you're just language that's used, and I just think it's interesting to just like, like subtle comments that start realizing and it's women have to, they have to face that it's it's it's it's hard. So yeah, so I'm not going to lie it's like wasn't all you know rosy and rosy and wonderful, which can kind of sometimes lead to some disillusionment or towards the end or burnout as well.
Speaker 2:It was definitely a journey and I think one thing on a positive note, though I did get to see it evolve. I saw more women joining engineering. I saw more women leaders starting to get into leadership roles. I remember sometimes, even when I was in ads engineering in one group, I showed up to this panel one day and it was literally all white men on the stage and I just walked out.
Speaker 1:I'm like like I don't need to listen to the.
Speaker 2:I mean, I just we couldn't have found any diversity here and so that unfortunately that happened quite a bit.
Speaker 1:But with time things are progressing and changing and more awareness and there's hope yeah, do you think things get easier or do we just get better at handling it? You know, like with parents, I sometimes think like, um, I am a parent, my daughter is 11, so sometimes I feel like, especially when she was younger, I think somebody told me like it's not that it's getting easier, it's like you're getting better, you have you're getting better as a parent to handle these situations and, as you mentioned, awareness and sort of like education and training that people get to do these days in tech to not just in tech but overall diversity and inclusion is a big topic. So people get more aware of unconscious bias. So that kind of helps the environmental stuff, like the educational part of it, it helps too. But I also feel like we women get better too yeah, you know, I think that's true.
Speaker 2:there's, there's skills, there's ways of coping. I think I went to tech week last week in New York and there's things that I notice. I am very observant to what I see and I see how, in this scenario about to share, like how women had to just roll with it. But there was this panel, there was a male, you know product manager, a female product manager you know, on the stage and the question was asked and the first one, you know the woman, spoke up first and answered it. I thought it was a solid answer. The male grabs the microphone right after that and says I think a simpler way to answer that is and I see her face and, and you know, get right.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, his answer was not simple, it was very complex and it was, it was rambling, and but he, by doing that, he using those words, and you know, he completely changed the impact of what she had said. Right, and so just the simple words of doing that has an impact, and I honestly don't think he realized. There's no way he did that with intention, but I saw it and she had a role with it. I saw her face get a little red and then she went on and she.
Speaker 1:It went on. But, yeah, you know, yeah, language matters. Yeah, language matters so much. When we say these little things that sound like it's something small to that person who says it, but in a context, to other people it's a big deal, and that one little thing can become like a big blocking point in your head because it just emphasizes what's already existing there, or maybe it's a new thing that you haven't thought of since somebody's, you know, said it.
Speaker 1:And as a new engineer, when you are I don't know if we have any, uh, listeners who are fresh grads from from college and they're just getting into tech right, these things totally, totally, totally are so important. So you mentioned something that was resonating with me and that was burnout. Working in tech has seasons, depending on what teams you are in. Some teams are more go, go, go, go schedule. Some teams are more go, go, go, go crazy and then die out out and then go slow and go crazy again to schedule, sort of like an incisions right, and so there are times where you work a lot of hours. There are teams that work a lot of hours all the time. Have you experienced that sort of burnout yourself when you worked in tech?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think for a while I you know, especially leading a team, you heard about burnout. You talk about burnout, you talk about how you didn't want people to burn out. I have a lot of energy and I had the ability to go, go, go. And there's times where I'm like I feel like I'm gonna burn out, I need a vacation, right.
Speaker 2:And then COVID hit and COVID, really, I think, changed things for a lot of people. You know, you couldn't travel, you couldn't see people, especially if you're extroverted and you get your energy off of other people. It definitely was a time where, all of a sudden, you start reflecting a little bit more in terms of what's important in life. And I hit a point where I definitely hit a point where I would say not only was I burned out, but I got to the point I, on reflection, that I was extinguished. And I think there is a there's a difference. Like burnout, you can almost like pull back from and they maybe take that vacation. But if you don't, if you don't listen and to yourself and start noticing the signs, you can get to the point where it's beyond burned out and it's where you're extinguished and at that point it's really hard to come back from that um and so, yes, I've, I've definitely, you know, had had that experience, and maybe that's also where it's led me to where I am today and it's, you know, I think, just realizing, like, then, paths can change, your values can change what interests you or what drives you can change.
Speaker 2:Maybe 10 years ago I've changed in terms of what I want for myself and that feels different, and so you know, it's an adjustment, and so I don't know, part of that too was, you know, having a kid and then having a different exposure to, like, what's really, you know, important in life. When I'm coming home, I'm working you know different hours than you know, new York hours and having to log into a meeting and my son's trying to close the computer and I'm like I have a meeting and then he finished that meeting. You're like, wow, was that meeting that important? What did we accomplish in that meeting? But I did snap at my kid Right, and so having some more of those reflection points were, were interesting, were interesting for me.
Speaker 1:How, like if someone is listening and they don't know what a burnout can manifest in the body, like, how do you even identify Like in the body?
Speaker 1:Like how do you even identify like yes, I heard about it like including myself, anxiety and burnout, I don't those two things that I'm not really sure, like how to identify them in my body, because what ends up happening, especially I mean what had that happening to me was that I was so disconnected from my body that I couldn't even get the signs of burnout or anxiety.
Speaker 1:It would always be an override, override, of sort of go, go, go, the sympathetic nervous system override, and so the, the sensations, the internal sensations of that little flags that might be helpful for someone to um sense and interpret as early signs of burnout and anxiety or panic attack or whatever it could manifest into, could be helpful to to prevent it. As you said, you know you don't want to be at the point where you are extinguished and you just completely, there is no fire within you and there is no source, no resource or power within to keep going. So for people who maybe relate to this or feel like they don't know what it feels like, do you have a these symptoms that you had, or maybe something helpful for them to um identify those states um, so I think there's some signs in terms of and and I've heard this from other other people too.
Speaker 2:Once I left, it's like, yes, like you know, I'm experiencing that now, or I've experienced that where you're waking up in the middle of the night and you can't go back to sleep and your brain keeps your, you know, processing so many, so many different thoughts, so many different things, so your sleep patterns are disrupted. I think, then, maybe even a lack of clarity of thought or perspective, and you know when, when you know your telltale signs of things that normally do give you perspective or did you give you that break aren't recharging you, like if it's going for taking a trip, whether a vacation or a weekend trip, or you go for a run, that's you know exercise is your outlet and you're still not feeling recharged, or your head's still not feeling clear and that ability to not have perspective. It could be also it was hard also during COVID too it's like you're everyone's more inward as well, or you're not going out, but maybe you also don't want to go out. You know you don't want to engage with people. You don't maybe want to. You know, talk about work, or you know think. You know think about it. And so when you start maybe going more inward or doing things that are opposite of what normally, how you normally operate or what normally brings you joy, and sometimes you have to put self-imposed things and bring them back in I'm going to go take a bath and just relax and listen to music. I'm going to go to a concert, I'm going to go do these things.
Speaker 2:But if you can't get that perspective, some of that should be signs, Some of that should be okay. Well, what do I need to do to? You know, to reflect. I think sometimes we get on a treadmill of thinking like, well, we, we have to do this. This is what everyone you know, this is what everyone does in the big tech worlds, right, like?
Speaker 2:Or you know, in any any uh company, really, when you know startups I've seen same thing get really busy, really focused, and then you start not you start forgetting yourself a little bit. Or why are you doing this in the first place? And when you start realizing that why you were, you know I talked about in the very beginning I love the people I was working with, I love getting things done, you know, and all coming together to do things. And then, when you start getting a jaded point of view, when you're like, yeah, we're just going to deprecate that feature later anyways, or um, I actually, uh, am not enjoying this environment and it feels rather toxic, or you know you have certain things that are, like, you know, flags.
Speaker 2:Um, maybe it's okay to stop and take a step back and be like is this situation still working for me? I don't need to. I don't need to do this to prove I can stick through something. Life's too short, right, so there's so many other opportunities out there. There's so many ways to challenge ourselves. Life's too short, right, so there's so many other opportunities out there. There's so many ways to challenge ourselves. There's so many ways to grow our skill sets. Don't have to make something work if it's not working right. And so the problem, though, is is that sometimes, when you get in that loop and you're just so, you're so focused, you're so burned out. Maybe you're type A, because you're a perfectionist, you want to get stuff done and, like a lot of these companies hire the same type of people who, like we, all work hard and we all have the deadline.
Speaker 2:And so I've heard from a bunch of people to say Okay, I've, you know, had friends that are at that point where I could tell they're burned out and they're like, well, I can't leave my team, I have to just finish this one deadline, and then I'll rethink about it and I'm like you know what. There will always be a deadline.
Speaker 1:Always be a deadline.
Speaker 2:I strongly believe in prioritizing yourself and not the corporation. And so yeah, I think it's important to have those self-reflection moments.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, yeah, I love it. So to summarize to our listeners, it's pretty much one of the big signs would be your disruption of sleep, when you either just can't get out of your thoughts, emotions, they just keep spinning in your head, or you wake up in the middle of the night and you can't go back to sleep, not having the tools to sort of reflect about yourself and have a self-care, things, things that you've done that don't work anymore, right, like go for a run and it doesn't recharge you, or just losing perspective, right. Those are great, great, great points. And I'd like to add one from my perspective is like reactivity, and that I I know from being close to other people who can be worn burnout, and observing their behavior over time and knowing if they've started feeling reactive towards something they never used to be used to feel reactive like. For me, that's one of the signs when it's a little bit too much for them.
Speaker 1:And another one is sometimes, when you ask people about their own state in, when they are in that state, they will never say they burn out. They will never say, oh, you know, I, or maybe they will, but it's very rare. They would say, oh, I need to finish this right, as you said, oh, I need to do something. They would kind of be in a denial sometimes and what helps is talking to their friends or their family and say, hey, how are they objectively like people around them, like, how do they feel? And they would often say like, oh, I noticed this and I noticed that, and that oftentimes opens up the eyes to people who are in that burnout situation themselves and say, oh, I didn't know. Notice that I've been doing that, you're right.
Speaker 1:And then that self-awareness um kicks in and says, oh, maybe I do need help. Um, and yeah, that's super, super important. Especially, you know, the mental health situation in the us is pretty bad. Um, I think the stat says like one out of five people have pretty bad mental health illness or issue and it's been pretty bad since pandemic. So it's going. It's very important. So, how do you work in tech? For what? Seven, 18, 20 years? You said, right, you changed companies in between. Walk us through that decision-making process when you decided to quit and change your perspective a little bit and do what you do now and tell us what you do now as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so I think I missed all my burnout signs. We've discussed that. So I think I missed all my burnout signs, we've discussed that and I think that everything all came together at once. I think, from having some of my own health issues that turns out stress can really cause health issues and having my own health issues. Then my, my dad was, you know, in in the hospital as well. He kept having these delusions that he was at work or he was late for a meeting or a court case, and and I remember having a moment being like I don't, I don't want to get to the, to the point in my in my life and all I'm thinking about is work or that deadline, or, you know, having that be my reflection point, that stuck in that loop in my head. So I think it was interesting to have all this, all these experiences, juxtaposed together, like having my own health problems which I, you know, generally a healthy, you know, person and having my own health problems, having my own stress, having my own complete extinguishment in just a position. I'm seeing my dad and taking some time off and reflecting about the work environment that I was in and whether it was bringing me joy, it was the right situation, what I was getting out of it or whether I was just doing it because I was going to make it work, and and so I think it became pretty clear to me after I had some time way to actually process it and, you know, get my own health in order I was like, nope, this, I don't know what's next, but it's not, it's not this, and so I quit and someone gave me recommendation do not think about work for three months. Like, do not think about what your next job is going to be. Do not wonder what you just did with your life. Do not, you know, reflect on how work went or how it will be in the future. Do not think about work.
Speaker 2:And so I did that and I sat down. I made some goals. I had some travel goals. I wanted to read infinite, sad, infinite jest. It's about you know a thousand pages David Foster, wallace. I wanted to get a picnic blanket and just sit in a park and read. I wanted to catch up with friends that I hadn't been connected with and maybe I think I had been avoiding cause I just didn't feel like talking. I wanted to connect back to my to myself, started doing doing hot yoga again I hadn't done that in years signed up for a marathon.
Speaker 2:I just chose different goals, whether it was athletic goals, whether it was my own you know hobbies, and whether some of it was just not making any plans at all, and I'm a planner. So some of it was just okay, don't have too many plans, just also experience, uh. And so that three months came around. I'm like, wow, I think I need, I think I need another three months and and listen, I do understand that. You know that's a privilege too. I, you know a lot of.
Speaker 2:You know people I know who don't like their, their jobs, um, or don't like you know the current situation that they're in and and unfortunately, like because of finances or certain you know, uh, insurance, insurance reasons, cause insurance is really hard in this country, uh, they have to keep it. So, on on advice like that, I always try to remind like what are there other ways where you can maybe have those moments of recharging or not thinking about work, whether that's I remember at one point I would get in the elevator at work. This is pre pandemic and I would already turn off my syncing of my work email because I didn't have the ability to not like keep checking my email. So whether there's little tactics or things that you can do to try to give yourself those breaks, I think are important because I understand not everyone can just quit their job and just say I'm done with all this, but I quit, and I spent a year doing that, not thinking about things, traveling and you know what, also spending time with my son, and that was a.
Speaker 2:That was a very interesting change for me because I will never forget talking to a friend. I remember pacing back and forth with her because she was thinking about turning down a promotion, because she wanted to have a second kid, and I remember giving her this whole Sheryl Sandberg lean in speech. And I remember pacing back and forth. I remember the view that I was staring at her when I was giving her this motivational speech about how we and it's not that I also don't think that people, people want to go for that and do that they, they, they can. I think everyone's different. I think lean in Cheryl, though kind of sold everyone a lie a little bit, a little bit. So I do have some opinions about that, but no.
Speaker 2:I think that, like I just remember that that was where I was at that point and then I I changed and I shifted a bit and I shifted more towards focusing on myself and focusing on, you know, my family and less about the, less about the corporation. And for me, that work, for me that was the right path, that was the right journey and it's still the right one, you know, for me now I I've been taking up an approach. Right now is I'm going to take whatever the universe brings me, because I'm trying to figure out you know where, you know what, that you know what that might be, where that, what I want to do, to the point where I'm like I am trying to figure out you know anything you do, it helps you learn a little bit more or it gives you a little appreciation or perspective. Like I even started door dashing for a bit with my son's um, or with my bike, with my, with my son's like bike seat on the back, and uh going around and uh delivering food in New York.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, and I'll tell you, it's it's.
Speaker 2:it's humbling, like the people that are out there doing it during the cold weather and like the New York streets, and you know the craziness of delivering the food. It gave me a lot of different. You know perspective and admiration as well. But I think what I learned from that is I'm loving the flexibility. I might not be door dashing for forever, but what it did was. It taught me like I want something that has to do with flexibility, and it's might not be that, but I do want flexibility. And so I started. I started consulting and doing expert network consulting and working with different consulting agencies, and now, since I have been in AI ML for so long, I've been riding that wave and and so I've been speaking at panels, I've been, you know, flown to different people's conferences. I'll do phone calls, I'll do Zooms and everything's great because they organize it around my schedule.
Speaker 2:They know when I have to drop off my child and they know when I have to pick them up, and so I have that. And then someone reached out to me and they have a, they've been have a coaching business and they help people find jobs and their goal is to accelerate careers and help people find careers. And they said, will you be a coach within our network? And so I said Sure. Again. Along with that, universe came to me with it, so I'm going to check it out. So that's where I'm at right now. I've managed to find a way to fill up all of those hours that I have in between having to drop off my child and pick up my child and fit in my running or training as well. How my life pivots. And you know the next opportunity I don't know.
Speaker 2:I have been going to tech events. I've been meeting people, networking. There's different experiences of people I'm meeting along the way. I'm having coffee with someone in two weeks who's been doing more AI for good and has been partnering with organizations that are working in Ghana and bringing AI into active East Ghana. So we're going to talk in a few weeks and maybe in the future, once my kid starts going to school for more full time. I'll have more, more time, but right now I'm optimizing my best life with the amount of time I have, with some work, some you know, some me and some kid, kid and family parts. So I've got I've got a good balance now and I know that's going to change again and I have learned to embrace and I'm learning to embrace like that. That's okay. This is what the ride is all about, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. Um, I loved how you said that just not thinking about work when you feel you know kind of coming back to that, helping yourself like and be self-advocate and have some self-empathy for yourself, when you are in a stressful situation, and like companies these days offer such great packages for mental health break, right, like people can go for a three, six months sabbatical, like, it's a great time to do that and I feel like people should take more advantage of that because it will give you such a great perspective to your purpose. Because, yeah, if we don't leave our purpose like, what are we doing? You know like, and the purpose is there at all times. If you are intentional about something right, like if you, if you work one of the tech companies and working on some feature, right, that's going to change some people's lives, that's a purpose right, and it's hard sometimes to see that purpose when you are in the midst of it. But then when you take a break and you get out of that space for a little bit, and it's for me like described like not thinking about work for three months, I think, when I quit my job and I had the first couple months, like my calendar was empty.
Speaker 1:I got anxiety like major problem with just seeing empty calendar. I would look at it and I would think like I got to fill it up with something. I could not just like look at it and it was empty. So my door, my constant high achiever person type a personality needed to fill that space with something. And my sister also told me like hey, just do nothing. Like, have that space in you that will give you that perspective and creativity to figure out what you want to do in life. That, um, that aligns with your purpose. I love that. I loved how you said that you you know that was advice that you were given and then three months became six. That was great. I guess my next question would be um, for people who listen, or maybe to younger people who listen, what would be the advice that you would give them? Or maybe an advice that you would give to your younger self?
Speaker 2:I think I would go on two paths of thought or lines of thought. One is I think I'm I've noticed a difference in attitude that people have had about work in a younger generation. It has kind of a negative connotation with the word, the quiet quitting, but what it means in practice, what it means in value, is prioritizing yourself. And you know it doesn't mean you're not showing up and doing, doing well at your job. It means you are showing up to work and you know giving, giving your effort, giving your all, but then leaving work and going to that yoga class or doing a you know an activity. And when they say, stay later, come on, we've got it, you got to launch. I've heard people say no, I've, I've got something after work, I can't.
Speaker 2:And I, I think that these corporations have become so big and whether it's driven with performance culture, whether it's driven by hiring a certain type of people, and it's like a bee you know what is like that beehive, like you know, you know mentality of everyone's got to come together and think the same way and and so you don't break that mold of you. There's other things in life than just work. I think that you know, I've seen the younger generation, really, you know having a different perspective, and I say keep it up. You know, like, at the end of the day, like, yeah, you have that feature launch. You have that product to launch. You know you don't want to leave your team you know behind, but you know what there's always going to be work to launch. You have that product to launch. You don't wanna leave your team behind, but you know what there's always gonna be work to do, right, and what, at the end of the day, is more important Is it giving to a corporation that maybe isn't gonna 100% give back to you as well, because that's how corporations are meant to go. They're meant to hire people, churn people out, get things done, things done, make money. And so you have to really think about your balance and what it is that you want.
Speaker 2:If you want to do that and you want to write that career letter and you want to, you know, get up there and play that game. By all means, go for it like you should. That's what interests you. But be clear about what you want and why you want it. Are you doing it for you, or or are you doing it because maybe your parents told you like this is what you needed to do, or because the next person on your team is doing it and you're just getting competitive. It's just so.
Speaker 2:I think that would be the one line of thought which would be continuing to have, like that perspective and that of protecting your time. And then the other line of thought is just like also being very clear about what you want in that process, because if you want to like do it, I say do it. But just I think it's really important to have those two in tandem of protecting your time, because maybe protecting your time is only a smaller bit of time. Because you really really want to deliver that launch, because it has some other meaning for you. You want to do it together, all as a team, or you really think that has a it's going to have a big impact, and you know, and you want to get that launched.
Speaker 2:Or because you know it's going to get you to that next career opportunity that you want, and I think that's OK. But I think the word that you used earlier and I've always enjoyed this word, I've always think it's a good word to have when it comes to your career is being intentional. It is really important to be intentional in terms of why are you? Why are you doing things? I think the same thing goes with couples who are dating and then they feel like next they have to get married, and the next they have to have a kid, and the next, you know. People say, well, you're gonna have your second kid, right, like there's different ways to do things.
Speaker 1:Some shoulders, some skin, some box that's like society gave us to fill in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's the.
Speaker 2:I think that's important to just really be self-aware and intentional.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I love that because there is nobody else that is similar to you, right, In this whole world. You are so unique. There is no one in this entire world that is like you, right, and finding that voice that is you not your mom, not your dad, not your manager like, but you like that takes ages. That takes ages because it takes a lot of it's like a muscle, right. You're practicing to hear that voice and distinguishing that voice from somebody else's voice. That requires a lot of self-awareness. So thank you for bringing that up, because that is a hard work, but it's so important because if we are aligned with who we are and what our purpose is, which will be very unique to who you are, then everything will be just so easy, right, Like we're just going to enjoy and we have so much joy and passion to what we do.
Speaker 2:And I would say that voice could change too, and passionate to what we do, and I would say that voice could change too. And that's the other thing why we always have to be aware of who we are and allow ourselves to have that change and be okay with it. All of a sudden, be like wait a minute, why isn't this giving me passion anymore? Why, what's? It's not what's wrong with you, it's just, it's a new journey, it's a new stage that you're going with it. So, just, you know, make sure to listen to yourself if you are evolving, because we're supposed to evolve right.
Speaker 2:We'd be pretty boring if we didn't.
Speaker 1:So that's it. Yes, I love it. So I feel like our life is like human life is like a container that consists of experiences and we collect those experiences throughout life, in different seasons with different things. Our whole intention in this life is to fill that container with so many experiences and so much joy, while collecting those experiences, that when we die at the end of the day and lay down in bed, we can say that we lived a full life and we, we just we can tell a story to our children, like we can tell them like, hey, I've done this amazing thing and that amazing amazing thing and I've, I've flew 220 countries and I've worked for 20 years in this thing, and like, but no regrets.
Speaker 2:I think that that is a that is a life worth living.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, well, that's awesome. I love that. I love the ending of this. So, jean, uh, where can people find you if they want to connect to you, ask you a question or career advice or really anything?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can. I think they can reach out and find me on LinkedIn, okay.
Speaker 1:I'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just Jeannie Williams, and they can find me there, and I'm more than happy to chat with anyone who needs to brainstorm anything or just wants to share any of their their thoughts. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining. It was such a pleasure to talk to you and I hope our listeners got something that they learned too. Bye.
Speaker 2:Awesome Bye.
Speaker 1:All right, here you have it. The conversation sparked so many interesting insights, as I could relate to so many things Jean shared in inclusion and diversity area, as well as mental health. I hope you enjoyed it too. Please give us a rating. Share this podcast with a friend or two and, as always, embrace the C-squared effect. Keep evolving, make bold decisions and strive to make the world a better place. Love y'all.
