The Sea Squirt Effect: Tech Tales of Transition

Sue Booker: Creating Inclusive Technology with Curiosity

• Alla Shashkina • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Prepare to be inspired by Sue Booker, a trailblazer with over three decades of experience in design, art, and accessibility advocacy. Her journey is a testament to the power of curiosity and resilience in the ever-evolving tech industry. From her early days in industrial design to her prominent roles in tech, Sue shares valuable lessons on navigating a male-dominated field, overcoming imposter syndrome, and finding passion in mobile technology. Her story reminds us that learning from every interaction, embracing challenges, and staying present can fuel both personal and professional growth.

Sue's career trajectory is anything but linear. As she recounts her experiences from consulting to returning to a big tech company, managing a growing team, and ultimately realizing that management wasn't her true calling, we gain insight into the courage required to make bold career moves. Sue emphasizes the importance of aligning work with personal passions and the impact of making choices driven by fulfillment rather than titles. Her narrative challenges conventional career paths and showcases the empowering nature of focusing on what truly energizes us.

Our conversation with Sue also delves into the profound impact of language and accessibility in design and technology. She underscores the significance of mindful language use and designing with empathy to create inclusive products. We explore how maintaining health and vitality, managing stress, and seeking balance can lead to a fulfilling and active older age. Sue's wisdom offers a roadmap for anyone looking to navigate their career in the tech industry with purpose and passion. Join us for an episode brimming with inspiration, practical advice, and energizing stories.

You can find Sue on LinkedIn!

There is a wealth of information available and only so much time in the day. Therefore, I truly appreciate you spending some of your valuable time listening to this podcast. Your feedback is very important so please reach out to me on LinkedIn or over email: alla@evolvexlabs.com.

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Music credits & copyright by "Odin v olen'yem parke" ("Один В Оленьем Парке").

Alla:

Hi and welcome Sue Booker to the Se Effect podcast. I am so excited to have Sue here with me today to talk about transitions within the tech industry. Just as a short intro, sue Booker is a designer, artist and accessibility advocate with over 35 years of experience in user experience, design and management. She led design teams to create innovative, inclusive products we use daily, always focusing on meeting people where they are physically, emotionally and cognitively. Sue's career is marked by pivots and new experiences that keep her engaged and curious. A cum laude graduate in industrial design from the University of Michigan, sue has spoken at numerous high-profile events and holds 15 patents. After decades in big tech, she shifted focus to pursue her passions from a fresh perspective and I am so excited to welcome you here.

Sue:

Sue. Thank you, Alla. This is just such an honor to be here and I'm just excited to talk to you about all of this, and your podcast is something just I love listening to, so thank you for having me.

Alla:

Amazing. So let's start with a very first question that I love to ask my guests, and that is what makes you feel most alive.

Sue:

Yeah, thanks for not telling me what you're going to ask me ahead of time so I can think a little bit here on the spot. But honestly, that's an easy one for me, and I don't know why, but I never take the easy path in life, and so if I've done something that really challenges me and I get to the other side of it, I feel pride and that makes me feel so alive that I've gone through something difficult and I've come out the other side and I'm just, I feel, proud of myself for doing it. So it's that effort, if it's not easy. But then there's another thing that also comes to mind that has been a learning experience for me. It's being present and just really enjoying where I am, right there and the things around me and the person I'm talking to or the experience I'm having. And that's taken a lot of practice to keep my mind in one place and keep it. Keep it where I am.

Alla:

And that is truly feeling alive is when I'm just noticing the things around me and, yeah, that feels great yeah, the reason I didn't let you know what I'm going to ask was exactly that, because I knew you're going to give me such a great answer, in the flow and without preparations, is because you're such a great person that will just come with a great answer.

Alla:

Well, exactly, and thank you for such a good segue into my own experience working with you. Like you said, you like to be present with the person right, and that was when I was thinking just this morning, when I was going for a run, I think, oh, I'm gonna introduce you. What am I like? What was my experience working with you? And the first thing that came to me this morning was exactly that your ability to be present for people, for your team for your effort.

Alla:

Whatever is at hand, you are like fully in that present moment and you can feel it. You know you can't fake presence. It's either you're present or you're not, right, right. So, yeah, you totally are embodying the presence, the ability to be present as a leader and someone who's passionate about certain areas in technology. And, yeah, that was exactly my experience with you and we both worked on a few projects together, right, and I remember we had like lunches together and just be in meetings and I always felt heard and I always felt this steady gentleness, like a gentle, present presence um to you, to to me, and that was always very, very nourishing for my nervous system and my myself, like they could be a storm or whatever um else outside and I knew that you would always be calm, pleasant and gentle.

Sue:

That was really nice oh, that's great to hear. Yeah, that was. It's important to me every day, not just in my career, but, yes, certainly when we were. We worked together to a very big, stressful place with a lot going on. And you know, I one of the things I always tried to do is is learn something from every meeting, no matter if it was from a very junior engineer all the way up to very senior executives they, the smartest people in the world work where we did, and I, I really tried to take something away from every single interaction.

Sue:

And you can't do that unless you just are really engaged. You have to be present and and learn, and I don't get anything out of it if I'm not present. Thank you for that. It's an effort. It's hard. I think it gets easier as you get older because you've got a bit more experience with it, but it takes a lot of energy to be present and it's hard to not let your mind wander. And you know, what am I going to do in this next meeting? Am I prepared and do I have to present something? You know where's my deck, you know all those things you know looking at the calendar and and that's not where. That's not fulfilling.

Alla:

That's not a good way to live your life yeah, I heard something interesting recently and that goes really aligns with what you just said about learning something from the meeting. Right, it's like your brain cannot be hateful and curious at the same time. Your brain cannot be sort of in the negative, if you can translate hate into negative and curious at the same time.

Alla:

So if you feel like negative emotion or something that you don't like, turning that into a curiosity actually, well then you'll see something under a different angle and then learn like to your point, right, yeah, like, instead of sitting there and sort of cooking yourself in the negative emotion or something that is not helping, like turning that around and say, oh, maybe I should learn something from it. Right, okay, I can be curious about something, so that's that's awesome and curious is.

Sue:

You know, that's what I've my. The roles that I've had that I've enjoyed the most have been all about being curious. They They've been. You know, curiosity that I, that I just almost overwhelmed by that. I just can't stop like digging into something because I'm so curious to learn about it and to discover something new and to make something better. But it is that curiosity and I think these negative emotions to you can turn into chat. Negative emotions too, you can turn into, you can energize them. They can be challenging, they can be learning, for sure. But I think they can also be the flip side of that is challenge. You'll learn that.

Sue:

All about trying to handle all kinds of negativity in life. You know, pain management that's another one of those where you try to channel it into something challenging as opposed to something negative that you're focusing on and that way that positive energy comes into it. And I think that's incredibly important to in a stressful place, like a lot of our corporate jobs are just steeped in that. And if you can't flip it into, you know, reframe it. Basically, we're always reframing right and make sure it's a positive reframing and it fuels you to kind of get energized by it and turn it around.

Alla:

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you bring it up because, from a physiological perspective like if you feel something, a negative emotion, right, or something that sort of gives you some energy, right, it's just a signal from your body to use that energy into something. Like, if you feel negative emotion, you can use that exactly to your point. It's a signal from your physiology to use that energy for something right, and you could use it for nothing like sitting and just spinning around in your head, or you can use that energy that the body gave you and it towards something productive, right, reframing a statement or learning something from it.

Alla:

Oh, your body gave you energy to solve the problem or to come out of the situation in some way.

Sue:

So yeah, that's that's amazing.

Alla:

So, sue, um, we kind of jumped straight into like curiosity and all those things. Um, so you have over 35 years of experience. Like I never interviewed anyone with this much of experience in tech. So I it's a really impressive career that you've built for the past 35 years, long time long time. So let's tell us um more about how did you get into tech Sure, how did you decide?

Sue:

to. It's a long story, yeah, although not really I can shorten it dramatically. Let's see Well, the Bay Area, san Francisco Bay Area, is steeped in it. So location-wise that wasn't hard is steeped in it. So, you know, location wise that wasn't hard.

Sue:

But I started out in industrial design, which you know I'm not sure how relevant this is, but there aren't many women that are in that field and so I was used to being with in a room with a bunch of guys all the time I went to school for that. I grew up with that in my family. I was very comfortable with that. It didn't feel all that foreign to me. Tech at the time I mean, this was in the early 80s, so this was a long time ago, you know, or mid 80s, I should say. So I started out at a consultant design consulting firm. They hired me from school and I moved to the Bay Area for a job and it was a bunch of guys from Europe and me, which would have been pretty awkward for most people. But I was just like, okay, let's take this on. I was 3000 miles away from anyone I knew, except one person from college, which kind of gave me a little bit of comfort. But by the time I got out here, she actually was already living with her boyfriend and very busy and not even living near me, and so I got an apartment in San Francisco, also first time living by myself, so it was an expensive city. It was like I just had to figure it out. I had to. So that was you know, get find the grit. Or you know, I'm moving back East again because it was you know, I had to figure it out, I had. So that was you know, get find the grit. Or you know, I'm moving back East again because it was you know, I had to make it work.

Sue:

Anyway, to answer your question though, I then got into tech, because the design firm, which turned into a firm that is, is the biggest design firm in the world now is um. Their clients were most of them were fairly local, and it was a bunch of people from either the Stanford engineers or European designers, and they did not know what to do with these screens that were on these products, and I was someone who came in with some experience with some digital art Not sure I'd even call it design, but it was artwork and they thought it was pretty cool. So I was hired and then, you know, it just kind of escalated from there. I was really interested in how to use these products and the digital part of them and they were thrilled that someone cared about that, because they didn't at first, and then they really did very quickly after that.

Sue:

Then I I was poached, I would say, from there to a company that became pretty paramount in my career. But I I I went there twice. So I went there the first time and worked on some really skunk work stuff. It was huge in my career. I was in my mid-20s. I was going to Europe every six weeks to interview huge designers there and working on a project that was turned out to be pretty amazing, and I was managing the industrial design.

Alla:

I was doing all the interaction design initially and it was just an incredible time. Just to add to the context, I think industrial design in that company is a big deal. It's a big deal. It's the thing that, like, I guess, I guess if you are working on the product, the industrial design is the one that decides everything.

Sue:

Yeah, well, we brought it in-house after a little while. So not to say that I I did that. I I managed it initially, and but the thing that was just so incredible is to think that I was going to interview these designers that I had learned about in school and they were towards the end of their career or at the peak of their career, and here I was. I mean talk about imposter syndrome, which rightfully so, I mean I deserved to have it at that time, but it was an amazing time and that just so. There's tipping points in the world and that was one of them for a lot of, you know, tech exploding out of garages, but also mobile becoming a huge thing. I just jumped on that. That it was all about timing. I knew that mobile was really important and I always worked on things that had to do with that. I was plugged into what might be coming and I just was always excited and energized by that. So that just gave me an experience that really helped me. Just one thing led to another. I did that for five years and then went off and did my own consulting on my own for nearly a decade. After that, I became a parent. That was huge.

Sue:

Then I worked at some other tech firms, worked on phones before they were smart to allow people to look at websites on their phone, before there were smartphones, which that was really amazing software that I'm not an engineer, but boy, I had to fake it that I was, because that was super technical stuff and I really had no idea what half of the people were talking about in meetings at that company. And I really had no idea what half of the people were talking about in meetings at that company, but I was able to translate it into everyday people speak and make a product out of it, which is kind of what my job has always been about is to take complex things and definitely not dumb them down but simplify them into a way that it's just about the core thing you really care about and present that. So that gave me a lot of experience with that. I worked for a company that was in Europe at the time, or still is, and so I got to travel a lot all over and work on all kinds of mobile devices that were in millions of people's hands. It was just an incredible experience.

Sue:

And then back to this big tech company where we met. I was hired to manage a team that was fairly small when I joined and it became quite large. That was an experience. I did a lot of managing in my career there and it was a challenge for me because I ended up being good at it, but it didn't feel like that was what I was put on this planet to do.

Alla:

Um, how did you identify that what he just said? You know you. Yeah, you felt like that's not what you were meant to do. How?

Sue:

did you identify that yeah, I think the most pivotal part of of my career apart from what I'm doing now was that started it, and the way I can talk about it is we are taught that being in management is how you move higher in your career, that everyone should become managers and you should manage a bigger and bigger team and become more and more impressive titles, and that's what everyone should aspire to do. And as that momentum was happening and I was getting this bigger and bigger team and I was having the opportunity, I had an opportunity to have a very high level job and I didn't want it and this was a really big thing for me to wrestle with. And part of what allowed me and this is one of my big pivots in my job is I left that part of the company and went somewhere completely different. I took an individual contributor job. I left management. However, I didn't think of it as stepping down or because I didn't accept this. You know, go for this big job and went for this other one. It was a, it was a sideways move, and I ended up doing that then repeatedly in my career after that because I realized you can do that. You can step into management, manage for a while and if something else comes up that speaks to you more, it's okay to do something else. That might be a senior role or using your experience. I didn't care about titles, so that's pretty helpful right there. If you're pretty obsessed with your identity and your title, this might be a harder journey for you, but for me, I just set that aside and just said I don't care what it sounds like, this is what I want to do and another thing that helped in that.

Sue:

So I a couple of things. I was old enough that I reached an age that my mom got early Alzheimer's. When she was she was 50. She was young. That was incredibly impactful to me because my whole career I was thinking what if I get it at 50? What if that like game over at 50? And that was something that was always on my mind and I kind of thought that you know, when I'm approaching this age, I am going to just own what I'm doing and do what I want, and my time is precious.

Sue:

And I decided I've always worked on accessibility my whole career, but when I was managing I was getting farther and farther from it and other people were working on accessibility. I wasn't touching it any longer and I just wanted to save lives and impact lives. I wanted to allow people who had disabilities to be able to be employed, to be able to be independent, to really make an impact on people's lives and then ultimately, even save lives too. I worked on a lot of safety work and that was what just fueled me for the rest of my career, and so I just I asked for what I wanted. I went to a team, I went to the leader of this big team and just said you need me, you need this, you need this product to be accessible. If it's accessible, it will do this and that. And I'm the one to do it.

Sue:

And I'm not sure I really truly believed my worth at the time, but I faked it, and the worst thing that could have happened was I just kept my old job right. It's not like I would have anything terrible. Well, but they said, yes, I mean, I pitched it, and then I pitched it to more people and I got the job. They created a job for me, which was exactly what I wanted, and then, from then on, I did dip back into management here and there when I felt like my greater team needed that and I, in my experiences were useful, but then I flipped back and become an individual contributor again and to do something that I really felt passionate about and that was a really good thing for me to figure that out yeah, I think what's really impressive is your ability to transition within the same yeah, um company, within different organizations, within different roles, like you went from senior management into um ic and then back into management and back to ic.

Alla:

Like there is so much fluidity and that is driven by. You got to be brave, yeah, so it's so impressive because, as you said earlier, I think a lot of people focus on that linear progression right, like where you become this, you know, and then you kind of progress towards something bigger. That has to do with management, that has to do with the amount of people you manage, and that quantity and impact have to align to a certain progression, right.

Sue:

Yeah.

Alla:

I'm really impressed by how you were brave and navigated that transition and were driven by. What I hear from your experience is that you were driven by not your progression that looks good on paper, right, but you were driven by impact and that impact came from your internal passion for accessibility, safety, as you said, like translating complex things into more simplicity, and having that user experience. That's that what drove you, and I think it's so hard to focus on that sometimes because, yeah, we kind of feel like if we transition from manager back into IC, it's oh what happened yeah, no, like as your language, your language.

Sue:

Even just now was that back into yes, it's not a backwards role.

Sue:

You aren't going backwards, that's it you're. You're sometimes going forwards, if sometimes it's a promotion to do this. I mean, there's plenty of very senior individual contributor roles, so it's not necessarily even sideways and it's certainly not back. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with going back. I personally didn't go back. I went, I pivoted sideways or something better and so yeah, but that's true, it's this language we use and it's the way we think of it is I'm going back to this role and I never was going back to something. And the thing that I almost felt like I kind of just had to, because if I found myself being curious about something and working on something at night, you know, if you're home at night and you're thinking about something at work, that's fueling you, that it's giving you energy, it's not depleting you.

Sue:

So we do plenty of worrying about work at night at home and working at home on things, but this is different. It's when I I was dreaming about things, I was waking up thinking of things, I was spending time researching areas and reading articles about things and digging into data. That was not really my job. That is when I wanted to make it my job, and so it's those things that you have to be mindful of your mind, like what's going on in your mind when you leave work in a positive way. What are the positive things that are bouncing around that you can't stop thinking about? And if it is completely not work, then maybe you're in a really healthy space. But for me.

Alla:

It was so good yeah, oh, you know, I had to just really take note of that yeah, it's so important, and thanks for reminding um that language is so important when we speak about things like this. Um, yeah, I've, as a linguist, I feel there's such a power behind what we say, um, and so when we say something and we're not aware right of what we say, and then we suddenly realize, oh, you reframed it with language and then it suddenly has a different flavor to it. But so you mentioned, you have to be brave, right to have some sort of transition like that.

Sue:

Yeah.

Alla:

What goes with it else? Is there any other factors, maybe supporting leadership or I don't know what? What goes else in this ability to be, to be, to transition, like that?

Sue:

Well, I was very loyal as an employee to this company. I really felt they were doing right by their customers on so many levels. So I really wanted to support the greater effort. No one's looking at this or if my experience could benefit this team. That's looking at something or working on something. I there was a bit of that of. I just wanted to, you know, be a good um, help the greater good there. There was also this um, the access people who work on accessibility also really motivated me. I found my tribe definitely in that team, even though I was not working on that team. I was doing that work in a different capacity.

Sue:

But you can't you can't work with people doing that type of work without it really affecting you. You meet people who are so grateful for something that you've done that has changed their life. I mean a big impact and I wanted to. Maybe this is a selfish thing, but I wanted to have that kind of impact, but exponentially. You know, I wanted to help more than just one person, more than 10. I wanted to do something that could really move the needle and really help a large number of people. And I I don't know, I just maybe that was a challenge. But I just I honestly thought it was possible and that fueled me a little bit. It fueled me a little bit to just say, hey, let's make this even even bigger. I want a big impact here.

Alla:

Yeah, so it's like, if I hear it correctly, it's like alignment with the company and the values, aligned with your values, right On the very very core level. And then the environment, your immediate team, the team that surrounds you, that sort of there's trust there and there is a lot of support in that team. And then your inner drive, your ambitions in a good way, to support a larger goal, a larger impact, to change people's lives. Honestly, with accessibility, it's such a it takes a specific person with specific skills to be able to view things the way nobody else does, and I think that not everybody is able to do that, and I think you. The reason you were so successful is that you had, you possess those skills and the ability to view somebody else's perspective, to interaction with them with the device. How?

Alla:

do they interact, what's their pain? You can almost feel it right and then from that area, from that angle, say, hey, I really want to change this because it's so impactful, it's so important for them and not everybody has that in mind, as an engineer, when we work on some fridge features, accessibility is the last thing that we want to take a look at. It's an edge case, right, but it's not. It's not.

Sue:

If all products were accessible from the start, that should be the very first thing, and then everyone, it will reach a broader audience if you actually start there and that's the best design. It's the hardest design but it's the best design you can possibly do and then move from there. But yeah, the engineering and the design are very different for those things and as a designer, that's kind of what the job is is you have to feel everyone's pain. So, for better or for worse, I'm good at feeling people's pain. I'm not sure that serves me well in life in some ways, because you're constantly then trying to be positive and look at the positive. But I I do easily feel people's pain for whatever reason. And that's what interaction or user experience design that that's what that is. It's taking someone's experience and making it better. Um, and sometimes it's taking their pain and figuring out what are the pain points and fixing them yeah, yeah, I mean it's.

Alla:

It just aligns so much with, as you said and as I said in your intro, right like you, meeting people where they are at like. So that's exactly where that skill that somebody needs to bring is having that ability to meet them where they are and try to see where you can help them you have a better experience.

Alla:

I have a friend of mine. She is, she's visually impaired, so the way she interacts with the phone is so different from how I interact with it. So for her, the accessibility feature is the only way to interact with the mobile phone to. For her business as a coach, right she's, she's teaching language to people that are also visually impaired and and one of her tools that she's using social media. So interaction with those third-party applications, those so, so different. And she's been, you know, telling me how she had pain with this and pain with that. I'm like hey how did?

Alla:

they update this thing. It used to be so good. Now it just makes my life so painful. And you understand, like, yes, the way it's a little thing that we change without thinking about that impact for those people. It's like, oh, let's just remove that feature, it's not, it's not being used. And we look at the data and we say, oh, it's not impactful. Yeah, without understanding that it is so impactful for those people specifically. It's life-changing and if we remove something like that, it's life-changing yeah, independence, employment, all of that.

Sue:

I think I also then took maybe the subject of pain here. I think I took it to a whole different level for a little while. I got really involved in the suicide prevention work and the mental health aspect of people's lives that were using phones in that way. They were with their voice and it was really quite an experience and I'm so very proud of that work because I I know it saved lives and I know it continues to. But it's that was something that I I spent a lot, of, a lot of time in. And that was where you know this, this curiosity where, if you are just passionate about something, and you know this curiosity where, if you are just passionate about something and you know it's the right thing to do, you really can ask for something and get a yes. Yes, please, go into that and dig deep.

Sue:

That experience was very rewarding. However, there was a limit to it, because it is a pretty dark area and I couldn't take on that pain for too long. There was a limit where I had to move to more safety and then health and wellness. I had to get to a lighter place for a little while then to focus, because as designers you do, you carry the weight of your customer and you know that was something very gratifying, but yet then, okay, let's. I can't do that forever.

Alla:

That's, there's a limit on that, and is that a good segue for us to talk about transition now, like what made you decide to move on and do something else?

Sue:

Yeah, it was a very difficult decision because I literally felt like I was at the top of my game. I knew I wanted to leave. In a big part is my partner had left his company to explore other things in life and enjoy some more time and less work, and I really wanted to join him at some point, and so that was a motivation. I am an artist. I'm in my zone when I'm painting and creating art and I really have always wanted more time for that. And I thought you know, if it's not now, when is it? You know, you keep, I keep putting this off and talking about what fuels me, but stop dreaming and just start doing so. I just took the leap and said, okay, at this point, once I do this milestone, that's my send off. And I actually stayed another at least six months, maybe even longer, because it took a while to get this thing to launch, and then it was a fantastic thing. But I wasn't leaving exactly, and it's this again, it's the reframing. I was going to something else.

Sue:

I had already started this life as an artist and as I'm on the executive board of a nonprofit, music for Autism, who does concerts for kids on the autism spectrum, which I'm immensely proud of that organization. I'm doing all kinds of things. I'm traveling. I'm not looking at the calendar, I'm not blocking out my time in 30 minute increments. I really wanted to live that life and, yes, I was very nervous to do it. That was probably. I felt like I was on a high board, a high diving board, and I was just about to jump off. But again, not to jump down, to just move to a different thing is the way to reframe that, which I did, and I'm really enjoying life. I'm thrilled with my decision to do this. It's a very full life and so, yeah, that, um, there were just so many things that I wanted to do with my time and I couldn't do them with the role that I had, um, because it used up every minute of my day, and then some, yeah.

Alla:

Yeah, I can't even imagine how that could feel when you were part of such a big organization for such a long time and then you decide to move on to do something different. How was your first day after?

Sue:

Well, I planned it out because I knew it was going to be pretty frightening, and so I planned, I left for a little vacation immediately. I just I left, and it completely changed my environment.

Sue:

I also had all kinds of art projects in the pipeline, some I had started. I had some commitments. There's the social aspect. You know everyone says it's the people you miss, and so I lined up all kinds of social engagements so I made sure I wasn't just going into a void of nothing on my calendar. I had a lot of. I've been there.

Alla:

I look like.

Sue:

I'm impulsive, but I'm not impulsive. I plan things out. I plan B, C, D, E.

Alla:

all the time I love that, like the last thing you want when you move on from something that was so impactful for so long is looking at your calendar and seeing an empty space.

Sue:

Yeah, oh no, that would have been terrifying. So you have to ease into it. I had one friend that said you know, anytime you leave an environment like that, it takes about a year to feel like you're not like the hamster on the wheel and you finally time slows down, but not in a oh my gosh, I'm really old. Not in a. It's a really good thing. Um, and time finally now for me has slowed down and again it's being present in a different way. It's again getting back to that, noticing where you are and how you're spending your time and I it's. I always still have to work on it, but it's more natural now it comes even. It's not. I don't need to put energy behind it, it's happening more easily and just having I limit the number of time things I try to do in a day massively. I mean, I have rules around it to make sure.

Alla:

So yeah, yeah, it's amazing. I've been kind of diving more deep into the a concept called body budget, right when you are working in a very stressful environment for a very long time and you're sort of working at your capacity but you're really borrowing from the future yes if you keep doing it for a long, long time, eventually you add capacity.

Alla:

that's how burnout happened and that's how other sort of conditions start to kick in when you, when you just keep borrowing from the future, right, and then it's not healthy. And then yeah, and then we like, okay, now I want to live a life that does something else. And then now it's the time let's do that. And then you've been borrowing for so long and now your body is like exhaling and actually start restoring itself.

Alla:

for all the time that you've been working hard in the past, right, and it's restoring and restoring. Start restoring itself for all the time that you've been working hard in the past, right, and it's restoring and restoring and restoring. And now it's the time to for the body to say, hey, I was suffering for a long time.

Alla:

You're ignoring me or whatever you've been putting so much stress on me. Now it's the time for me to restore, and it can manifest in just being tired all the time or wanting to sleep all the time, because now you gave your body the the time and energy to do all that repair that has been taking fuck yeah before yeah, it's amazing.

Alla:

It's a very mindful way of living now, yeah yeah, so that's sustainability of, okay, pushing hard in a stressful environment without taking too much out of the credit, yeah, of the future energy sources.

Alla:

So that's kind of what I am currently focusing my like coaching programs on and trying to help people to bring awareness to when they need to step back and when they need to intervene so that they're not borrowing too much from the future and have a sustainable performance. Sustainable performance for longevity and other things that we wanted to do. Like we all want to live long life at the end of the day, right, and then, when we are really old, we don't want to. We want to leave without assistance as much as long as we want, right, you wanted to go to the grocery store when we are I don't know 90, or like take stairs when we have to go for a short hike, something like that, yeah it's yeah, yeah, I mean I think I have time now to to think about those things and to really listen to my body and and um, and I've definitely this has been a challenging year.

Sue:

I've had some health challenges that have really, you know, forced me to really look at that and be mindful of how I'm feeling and really appreciate what I have. And um, yeah, just enjoy, enjoy what I have and have a good, challenging mindset of looking forward yeah, you know, back to that reframing and the language part.

Alla:

Right, like our bodies are so miraculous, I like I went to this biohacking conference in Texas this year and I've visited so many lectures and seminars throughout the conference and the only one thing that was coming like going through all those sessions that was very clear was if we give our body the time to recover, the time that their body needs to replenish the sources and repair itself, the body can heal on its own. The body has the capacity to do that and I believe so much into that that our body has the capacity to repair what we cannot repair with other things. Only if we give the body that ability to slow down, regulate our nervous system, being able to switch off to being that calm, focused, present, ability to be present and calm that our body will just go and say, hey, I'm safe and from that place of safety.

Alla:

It will start saying, okay, I can, I don't. I no longer need to reserve this energy to fight.

Sue:

I will just use that energy to repair and, yeah, reinvest in yourself which is why I think it's so important, when you are working hard, to be aware of your body and to just think am I being replenished at the end of the day, or do I feel completely wiped out?

Sue:

you know when you're, when you you finish your, if you're in a, in one of these big jobs, if, when you finish your day, do you feel some energy? Know it might not be physical energy, you might be pretty worked out because these you know days can just slam you. But if there's, if there's a part where you're just taking a moment to really feel how, how your body is responding and you feel that energy, that's a good thing. If you feel completely depleted, maybe it's time to find a different role, a different focus in life.

Alla:

Yeah, thank you for that. That's so important. So just kind of to wrap up our conversation, which was, which I loved talking to you and I could keep talking forever, but like, yeah, talking to you and I could keep talking forever, but like, yeah, what's what's next for you? What do you, what do you feel passionate right now doing? And I guess the second part to this question is what would you tell people who are sort of battling, sort of being feeling stuck in a role or feeling they've been've spent too much time in the role but they're afraid making a change? What would you tell them?

Sue:

Well, the easiest thing to do is to stay stuck. That's true of any type of thing you're in in life, career or otherwise. So give yourself some respect and your self-worth. Do you want to do that forever? Look ahead a couple of years. Is that where you want to be and find the energy that you deserve and think about what's your life you want to be living and make it happen.

Sue:

It takes energy, it takes work. Change takes a lot more inertia than not, but it's worth it. There's risk and reward. If you don't risk, you know what you're going to get. If you're going to get the same thing you have now. So if that's not what you want, you have to go find it and make it happen. No one else is going to do that for you. It's not going to fall in your lap. So do it, just do it and just be brave and think about what's the worst thing that can happen. And usually it's really not that bad. And for me right now, I just I love wearing a whole lot of hats still. I love time with my family. I love time with my partner, with my kids, with my greater family. I love just all the things that just fuel me. I'm getting to do them now, so I'm in a happy place, yeah.

Alla:

Really a good, a good life yeah, really a good, a good life. That's amazing, that's so good and I feel you know how you just feel some more like so much joy just doing whatever you're doing. So I'm so excited for you that you can do that now and thank you so much for all your contributions in the past. You know, I know that you've changed people's lives with your passion and your ability to drive decisions that maybe weren't. You know, if you weren't in that meeting, maybe some things wouldn't be there now for people that really that for them it's so important their experience and accessibility and safety world. So you've changed a ton of lives, I am sure.

Sue:

Thank you very much, it's so wonderful to hear that that's. That's definitely a big goal, yeah.

Alla:

Thank you so much for having me. If they want to connect, LinkedIn is a great way.

Sue:

That's.

Alla:

That's a great way to find me. Um, I would say, start there. All right, I will. Um, I will share the link in the show notes for your linkedin. So, yeah, that sounds good. Um, see you again. Thank you so much for being in this uh podcast as of I as my as my guest guest. It's an honor and. I hope the listeners love the conversation and all the best to you and your family well, thank you so much for having me.

Sue:

I just it's been wonderful to chat for a little while.

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Alla Shashkina

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