CFO of a national sport. What's it really like? | Nimesh Kataria, CFO at the ECB

What does it really mean to be the CFO of a national sport, where decisions are public and trade offs are unavoidable?

In this episode of Chat CFO, we sit down with Nimesh Kataria, CFO at the England and Wales Cricket Board, to talk about the reality of leading finance inside a national institution.


Nimesh opens up about his move from media and broadcast into sport, the change from operating within a global matrix to taking full ownership, and what it means to balance financial rigour with safeguarding the future of cricket.

This conversation was filmed ahead of the Ashes series, which Nimesh references during the discussion, before the outcome of the tour was known.

We get into:
- What it’s really like being CFO of England’s national sport
- Moving from global media into full financial ownership at the ECB
- Making investment decisions without endless cash
- How finance leaders should approach AI and technology adoption
- Managing accountability, pressure, scrutiny, and long term responsibility


 

Chapters and Timestamps:
00:00 – What it means to be CFO of England’s national sport
01:06 – Nimesh’s journey into finance and media
03:16 – Leaving EY and choosing roles with purpose
05:10 – Building a career through opportunity, risk, and relationships
07:14 – Commercial finance, influence, and stakeholder management
08:50 – Career highlights from global media and sport broadcasting
10:37 – Leadership lessons, risk taking, and trust
13:30 – Moving from a matrix organisation to full ownership at the ECB
15:51 – Learning fast, leaning on networks, and adapting quickly
17:29 – Passion, accountability, and choosing the ECB role
19:37 – Balancing financial discipline with sporting values
21:42 – AI, technology, and the future of the finance function
24:18 – Collaboration across sport and governing bodies
26:14 – Accountability, preparation, and board confidence
29:01 – Shifting from reporting to long term strategy
33:21 – The future CFO pipeline and evolving finance careers
39:33 – Work, priorities, and managing personal trade offs
42:43 – Advice for aspiring CFOs and closing reflections

----------------------------------------------------------- 
About our guest 

Nimesh Kataria is Chief Financial Officer at the England & Wales Cricket Board, where he leads finance alongside responsibility for procurement and technology. Before joining the ECB, Nimesh spent over 15 years in media and broadcast, including senior leadership roles at Warner Bros. Discovery, where he served as CFO of the International Sports Division, overseeing Eurosport across EMEA and the TNT Sports joint venture with BT, as well as Finance Director for the UK business.

Nimesh brings deep experience across commercial finance, end to end M&A, large scale transformation, and stakeholder management at board and executive level.  

You can connect with Nimesh on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nimesh-kataria-369b8b26/

----------------------------------------------------------- 

About Chat CFO 

The Chat CFO podcast gives you insights from CFOs, COOs, and CEOs behind some of the most meaningful business decisions in recent years. 

Listen to honest conversations from leaders about what worked, what didn't, and what it really takes to lead when it matters most. 

Find more episodes and conversations with finance leaders on Chat CFO.  

https://www.youtube.com/@stoixChatCFO

Transcript

0:00

Today I spoke to Nimesh Kataria. We discussed what it's like to be the chief financial officer of England's National Sport. And Arol came up at Discovery. There are a few industries that I thought right, I'm really going to try hard here to get into because I feel like my skillset and my interests will sort of align into when you're working and doing a job, you're doing that for the best part, 40 hours a week. We discussed whether artificial intelligence will eradicate the CFI role in the future. We definitely can't ignore it, in fact, finance always does tend to be one of the departments that tries to adopt technology earlier. And I think finance should take that responsibility of role modelling, what can be achieved for technology, easier said than done. We also discussed combining financial discipline with sporting values. It's an ongoing battle I think many sports should face and ultimately we don't have endless pots of cash. Hope you enjoy the episode. Nimesh, good afternoon. Good afternoon. Thanks for coming in. As a starting point, can you just give us a bit of an introduction as to who you are and a bit about your journey please? Sure. Well, thanks for having me. Thanks for the invite, Neil, first of all. So currently I'm the CFO at the England Worlds Cricket Board. I've been doing that for about. 16 months now. But prior to that I've spent about 15 years in media and broadcast. So I had a sort of year in advisory for Ernst & Young, very quickly decided that wasn't quite right for me. And then pretty back in 2010, moved into discovery, what was then known as sort of little discovery channel, but actually has gone on to become a bit of a beast of an organisation and one of my brothers' discovery. And I left there in April last year before, as I said, joining the England Worlds Cricket Board. So yeah, that's me and a bit of a nutshell. And was that, did you always have an aspiration to get to the CFO's seat or did it just happen? That is a very good question because I almost ask myself it. And I think deep down probably the answer is yes, I always had that aspiration. I've been through certainly sort of early parts of my career thinking, no, that's not quite what I want to do. But actually the more a sort of ownership or accountability I sort of took on throughout various roles in media, it actually became more and more attractive and the more I thought about it and thought about the skills that I had, it very quickly became probably an aspiration towards my late 20s that yes, this is something I'd quite like to do and pursue. But actually I've always said to myself that it would have to be in an industry or a role or an organisation that I was passionate about and believed in the ambition. So I've always tried to sort of apply that criteria as a made decisions over the last few years. And you've ended up working for some really interesting businesses. Was that by luck or by you selected it or how did it all come about? The reality is and maybe everyone says this, it's probably a bit of everything. So when I made the decision to leave Ernst & Young after not even 12 months, I joined their advisory graduate scheme when they were building back up their consulting practice and loved the people there and really enjoyed some of the work. But I could tell that there was a bit of an itch to move closer to finance and I could tell that was what I was going to enjoy. So I decided that rather than wait, I may as well just make that step sort of immediately. But like I said, what I said to myself was I wouldn't sort of go for anything and I'd be really strict with myself about the industry and the organisation. And a role came up at Discovery. So that wasn't necessarily that I selected media only, but there were a few industries that I thought, right, I'm really going to try hard here to get into because I feel like my skills there and my interests were sort of aligned into effectively, as everyone knows, when you're working and doing a job, you're doing that for the best part of 40 hours a week. So it kind of helps to be interested in the product. And that's a bit of the criteria, like I said, that I applied when I was doing that search was and media came up, Discovery came up. And so that was intentional. But then everything that happened from there, I think is probably a combination of a bit of sort of luck, relationships, hard work, hopefully being sort of decent in the role that I was in at the time. And star sort of aligning as roles came up, for example, I always point to Discovery probably about 15 years ago now, maybe slightly less, decided to invest in EuroSport, which was sort of a European sports broadcaster. That's purely by chance. I had nothing to do with that decision. But at the same time, what did come my way was I was in the UK business at the time, responsible for integrating EuroSport UK into the UK business, perhaps did an OK job there and then eventually got into the European business as sort of the FD of that, it sort of grew from there. So I think sometimes, yes, there is something in making your own luck, but actually there's no doubt that luck has played some part in the journey along the way. Yeah. And tell us a bit about the skills you acquired and the route that you're taking, because I think we touched on this before. You've not necessarily ticked off some of the boxes that some would say that you have to do. You've kind of avoided doing much accounting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely fair. So I'm a qualified accountant. I didn't do sort of all the attacks. I didn't start, as I said, I started answering the young advisory and I almost chose to pursue SEMA. Oh, rookie mistake. I apologize. That's right. We'll keep that in. Yeah, you should. I almost chose to pursue SEMA. Just because, as I said, I was already starting to think about the future and pursuing more of a career in finance. But actually, I also knew that maybe ACA wasn't quite right for me at the time. So as you say, I haven't necessarily done a lot of journals or accounting and I started discovery in a very commercial finance sort of orientated role. And I spent a lot of my early years in Fpna or commercial finance. And it almost stayed that way until I left, really. Now the positive side of that is you get very close to what some would argue is sort of sexy side of finance, whether that's partnering with business, being in the room and decisions are made, getting involved in M&A, due diligence. So I still acquired a lot of skills that I think are absolutely critical to becoming a CFO, but probably the biggest skill that I think you learn in those types of finance roles is just stakeholder management and relationship building and being able to discuss, debate, disagree, challenge. And I look back now and think, I'm not sure I'd be where I am today without some of those learnings from those early days of being in those sort of business partnering Fpna type roles. Having said that, there are absolutely skills that I would have learned. I'm sure if I'd chosen the alternative route and started in order, but as we're seeing more and more, there's no real sort of one size fits all approach to becoming a CFO anymore. And I'm thankful for the route that I took because I think the softer skills that helped me to develop have become huge in where I've got to today. And tell us a bit about some of the more memorable times at EuroSport and some of the things that I guess you're proud of and maybe some stories. There's been plenty. So for context, one of the biggest things that EuroSport, one of us discovery brought into it from a sports rights perspective has been the Olympics rights. So they have a lot of the Olympics rights in Europe, so they still do today. And I got to go out to the Paris Games, which was just an incredible week or so that I look back on, but just being involved in everything from the bidding for that and contracting and partnering with the lawyers. Yes, you sometimes don't really see you move on to the next deal and you don't really think about it, but actually going there and thinking about playing a small part and that was great. One of the biggest projects I was involved in towards the end of my time was the joint venture with BT. So for those who are sort of football fans in particular will know of TNT sports. So the last sort of two, two and a half years I was there was heavily involved in everything from the start that initial conversation with BT to due diligence to negotiations to integrating that business to rebranding it. And that two, two and a half years taught me an incredible amount that I'll be sort of forever grateful for that. So the two year period it was brutal, but it was a great learning experience and probably one of the highlights of my time there. Yeah, and I guess in your time there, you had some great mentors and teachers in that time, tell us about maybe some of the things that you've learned and taken with you on the journey to being a CFA. Yeah, I've been very lucky, very lucky to have learned from some great people. I think that one of the biggest things that stands out is from a lot of senior leadership there was taking risks, not being afraid to do risks. You can always look at your organization and think, oh, we're not taking enough. And sometimes we did do that. But actually they took an incredible amount of risks on the number of decisions. And you won't get everything right as there's no doubt. But CFOs can sometimes be quite averse risk and not want to take the plunge. And that's where having good people to spar with around the table is really important. And actually the ability to debate challenge, like I said, but actually leave the room and have a beer. And everyone be on sort of not necessarily the same page, but be humble enough to go, yeah, we're doing this and let's do it. Even if my view might have been slightly different to yours, I think it's really important when you're a CFO. That partnership with your leadership team, how you nurture that. And you can't nurture it by just agreeing to everything, which sometimes CFOs I think can fall into that trap just agreeing. But actually the best partnerships that I think you can build are those where you can challenge each other and then sort of leave the room and still have a beer together. I think I definitely do that away from me when I left. The other thing which sounds obvious is just hard work. There's a lot of people who put in the hours and go over and above. And we'd all work life balance is a term that comes up so much. I'm not sure I'm a fan of it. Ballad-time fan, obviously everyone's trying to find balance, but ultimately everyone will know you sometimes you've got to go through periods where you do play in the hard yards. And that's again something that when you've got people like-minded, you can do incredible things in very short space of time is probably something else that I learned from my time. Quick message from me today, Stoics is a specialist CFO and finance leadership search partner. We've supported organisations across the UK, Europe and North America with identifying and hiring top senior finance talent. If you have a gap in your organisation or exploring a higher over the coming months, please do get in touch on the email address below. And then tell us about the transition obviously to CFO then more recently. So obviously coming from large matrix organisation, a lot of resource, a lot of firepower behind you to come into ECB which obviously much smaller, much leaner. Yeah, tell us a bit about that. Yeah, it's been fascinating. When I sort of decided to leave or that I wanted to think about leaving, one of the biggest reasons was because whilst I love what I did, when you're in a sort of large US-owned matrix organisation, the plus side is just surrounded by specialists. I could tap into tax specialists, transfer pricing specialists, corporate development specialists who are phenomenal at what they do. And that was great because I learned so much. But it almost felt like I was the one in the middle pulling it all together, which is also another good skill to have. But I wanted to move into a role where I had real ownership, was having responsibility to do all of those things rather than work with those teams. And that's what I found at the ECB is, yes, I've still got a team, a great team. We have to, with the doers, and you get your hands pretty dirty. And that's exactly what I was looking for. And it's just been a real, it's been a great learning experience for me. I mean, for example, I'll pick one example for when I join the ECB is insurance policies. I'd never had to deal with insurance policies when I was at One Brothers Discovery. And all of a sudden that was on my to-do list. And actually it's been fascinating. I mean, I know it doesn't sound like everyone's idea of fun. I've absolutely loved in kind of learning about how it works and what needs to go into it. And I've just really enjoyed that sort of full ownership of the full finance function. Because I don't think I had that at One Brothers Discovery. So it's been a real steep learning curve, but actually something totally necessary that was exactly what I was looking for in my next role. How have you gone about sort of filling in any blind spots or blanks in that time? Talking to people. Yeah. Right. I mean, sometimes you've got to drop the ego and actually call up a friend or an ex-colleague and say, mate, I've been doing this. What do you reckon? It's incredible. Over a 15, 20 year career, you can actually build up quite a big network. Yeah. And I'm very lucky, as I said, I work with some incredible people. And they've been, some of them have been very useful as I go through some of the challenges that I've been going through. But also, we talk a little bit about technology, AI and the resources we have now, compared to what we had 15 years ago, are endless. So you can learn something pretty quickly that might have taken you a lot longer to learn just through, you've got to be very careful and not sort of take everything at face value. But that's where sounding boards and sense checks rather than trying to, you know, I don't think one of my friends or ex-colleagues would like me calling them up and wanting a three hour conversation about something, but kind of using them as a sort of sounding board because I've done the research, I think is sort of acceptable in my eyes. And actually, you can just learn ahead of a lot from the resources that are out there. And just challenge yourself. I mean, I've got a great finance committee, I've got a great board. Yeah. Just challenge yourself to have conversations on topics that you might not be as sort of as knowledgeable about somebody else and go out there and have those conversations. It's something that I've just had to do and quite enjoy doing. Yeah. And aside from obviously we discussed the accountability sort of buck stops with you getting to the number one position, as you mentioned earlier, it had to be something that you were passionate about or you know, you bought into. Maybe not everyone listening to this is necessarily that into their cricket, even though it's, you know, it's our national sport. We've had a great summer of cricket, I'm a big cricket fan, but what was it about the role that sort of, you thought that's, yeah, I've got to do that. Well, yeah, I said first up, right, it's got to be in an industry or an organization that I feel passionate about. And effectively, the English was cricket board. They are there to grow the game. And that's something that, you know, as a cricket fan, I can absolutely relate to. We want more people picking up bats and balls. We want more people playing. We want more people watching. And just the kind of chance to have a small impact on trying to achieve that over the next few years was something I couldn't really turn down. Particularly, as I said, as a cricket fan myself. So, but aside from that, I don't need to be enough to just be a fan of the sport or the organization. As I said, what I was looking for in the role coming onto the board, taking ownership of the finance function from a career perspective, it wasn't just the sort of attraction to the organization or cricket. It was that the role ticked all of the boxes as well. And I think those two things combined made it in the end fairly easy decision to go for it. Yeah. And have there been any challenges? And are there any challenges around sort of balancing the sort of financial commercial lens with like sporting values and for the better of the game, et cetera? Is that definitely it's an ongoing battle. I think many sports face. And ultimately, we don't have endless pots of cash. So having to make decisions around where we place our chips and where do we get more bang for buck. It's probably not too dissimilar to what any CFO really has to do is is where are you placing your resource and what are you trying to achieve? And that is an ongoing sort of process. Yes, any organization and absolutely in sport. There are many mouths to fees and we're trying to feed those as best as we can. But ultimately, sometimes you've got to make a decision. And we made a fairly big one when I joined, which is that we were going to try and attract private investment into the 100, for example. But that also comes with consequences and things we have to consider. So that's why the biggest example I can point to trying to do the right thing by the game, but also managing other stakeholders and priorities that we need to. Yeah. But if it feels, I mean, from a consumer point of view, it feels like you maybe have got the balance right with the 100 at this day. I hope so. I think so. It's still relatively new. It's only five years old. We've attracted some incredible investment and investors to the game. So even as a fan, I can't wait to see what they bring to the table and how we grow the competition even further. There's definitely ambition there. I think it's been an incredible four or five years and we're very much looking forward to seeing how we can grow it alongside the new sort of stakeholders we have now. So, yeah, should be good. I'm already looking forward to next year. Super. So yeah, we touched on it earlier, but looking forward then, obviously with AI and technology, how do you see that this is a future of the CFO finance function evolving over the next couple of years? Yeah, we definitely can't ignore it. In fact, finance has always tended to be one of the departments that tries to adopt technology earlier or be sort of role model if you like. And I think finance should take our responsibility of role modeling what can be achieved with technology. Easier said than done, but I mean, I gave a very small example of how I've been using it, but there's so much you can achieve. I think it's the biggest thing that I think we have to do as the sort of finance community is carve out time to ensure that we are thinking about it and putting change in place and using technology in the right way. It's very easy to slip back into old ways. And this is how we used to do things actually challenging your teams and yourself to look at systems processes. Why are we doing this? What are we doing today that we don't need to do or could be doing better? I think we have to start asking ourselves those questions. We've been sort of thinking about our systems and our own technology base and what we need to be doing going forward. And I'm sure many of the finance departments are. And I think, I mean, again, a really small example, but one of the things we do a lot of at the ECB is there's a lot of papers where we're governing body and we write a lot of papers in the last few months. I'm pretty sure I'm not doing that in the same way that I was doing my joint 18 months ago. But I'm sure there's many more examples out there. And I also think I've been to a few sort of pre two or three AI type workshops and that whilst they've been great, I almost think the best way to learn or to get going is to do exactly that is to actually sit down next to someone who's doing something and go show me. What you're doing and how you're doing it. So for example, we've got a bit of a round table with some of the other FDs or CFOs across sport that we're going to get our heads together and start thinking about, okay, well, what are you doing in out space? Perhaps I can tap into that or can you just sit down. I think we've got to use the community that we've got to make sure that we're all learning off each other and making the best of the technology that's out there. Yeah, that's always good to hear that you sort of sport team mentality going across sport to help each other out. Is that quite common? I think so. I mean, the governing bodies, for example, we're not really necessarily competitors. So actually we should be working together on things. I'm certainly interested in what's going on the FA or the LTA. We speak fairly regularly, not sort of weekly by any stretch of the imagination, but there are relationships there that actually, and just like any other relationship that we should use and learn from each other. And there is already a bit of a community or a group that does that at the minute. So definitely a positive thing. I know it's harder in other industries. Yeah, but we're trying to make the most of it. Is anything surprised you since you joined? The biggest thing was just culturally, I mean, coming from a US-owned media company to a national governing body in England Wales, naturally the cultures are going to be quite different. So maybe I wasn't surprised by that, but it definitely struck me on sort of week one. And not for the better or the worst, just very different. But nothing's really, I wouldn't say anything surprised me necessarily. I think if anything, not necessarily surprised, but what I'd love for us to start achieving is being a little bit more tech-first and digital-first and digital-first. And that's something that I'd love for us to start making strides in. But no, I wouldn't say any other surprises on that. Culturally just very, two very different organizations that I've worked for. And again, we've touched on the sort of having the accountability. How does that actually feel when you go in there and you haven't got, you know, the buck does stop with you, you're making your decisions. You haven't had that role before. And so there's a bit of growing into the slightly bigger shoe. Yeah. Yeah. It felt quite new. Certainly in the first few months, I would say now, not so much. But there's a few things I think you can do to help with that. Number one is preparation. You shouldn't be walking into a board meeting or a finance committee meeting without being fully prepared. It sounds incredibly obvious. Probably is incredibly obvious. But actually the more preparation you can put into something. And that almost naturally makes you feel calmer or you're always going to get questions that perhaps might not throw you, but you may not have the answer to. But they should be few and far between, I believe. And I think that the only way for that to happen is that you are prepared. You've gone through the detail. As a CFO, I think our role is to be able to talk detail, but also to talk high level of strategic as well. And the only way you can do that is by the preparation that you put into something. So that almost helped. My default, I think, is go back to my bread and butter and that's hard work and knowing the numbers. And other people may have different sort of things. They lean on those things and go back to basics because the basics are what I've got you to where you've got to now. And I think the other thing is just relationships. Again, I've got always got back to relationships. If there's a board meeting or a finance committee where there's something that may be a tricky conversation or have the conversations before. Just pick up the phone, get feedback, edit. The board meeting really shouldn't be a surprise. The material shouldn't be a surprise. I don't think you should have had those conversations with stakeholders beforehand. So I think if you can manage that as well, that always helps. Yeah, I think it seems like, I mean, it's been a while now, but for the CFO, almost the numbers, the reporting, such as kind of that's a given. And it's now more so influencing skills, soft skills is what elevates you, what makes you great. And then now that's turbo charged by AI. Definitely. More of the role will be that moving forward. Yeah, I see some of the things that you mentioned as sort of the base of the house. To get trust from the board, from the committee, from your team, your executive team, you've got to have that in place because it's a very good thing. Because that's the foundation of the trust, but you can't really do this with the other things that you mentioned without the foundations of the house being in order. But I totally agree that the conversations in those rooms should be much more strategic. Probably not even about the next couple of years. What are we doing beyond the next couple of years, two or three years? And that's where I try and focus my input at those meetings. But I think the other part of being a CFO and being in those rooms is knowing what to say and when to say it is a massively important and probably underrated skill. You don't want to be waffling on. And I think sometimes short and sharp updates alongside some of that strategic input is probably what more boards are looking for now. With a lot more focus, as you say, on strategic input, guiding the future of the organization and not on reporting what's happened in the last quarter necessarily. That said, given the last five years, and it's sort of planning beyond even one year, it's pretty difficult these days. It can be the the amount of moving parts. It can be. I guess I'm coming back to the organization that I work for at the minute whereby a lot of our businesses still broadcast. We have a lot of leadership income, which tend to be longer term agreements. Therefore, we do have visibility on that longer term, probably more so than some organizations, particularly startups, for example. So I feel lucky in a way that I can stick up a slide on revenue and say, look, we've got a decent chunk locked here for the next few years, which means that I can focus on 29, 20, 30 and beyond rather than. As I said, the next quarter or the next year, whilst that's still important. Yeah. And are you optimistic about the future? I am. Yeah, I absolutely am. I mean, I know there's a bit of doom and gloom around what AI is going to do. But I feel super positive that whenever technologies come in, whether that's Microsoft Excel coming in or whatever else it might be, that's always been sort of networked. That's always been sort of net positive in my mind to what everyone's trying to achieve. So I feel very positive in that sense in terms of sport and cricket. Again, feel very lucky and super positive about the future cricket participation tendencies growing is on the up. We are effectively the second most popular sport in this country. We've got huge ambitions. It is absolutely about prioritizing investment, which is, I guess, where I'm coming a little bit. But I feel very optimistic about the future. And feel like that sport will always have, in my mind, a huge role to play in society and bringing people together. And I think now than ever before, actually, given from a broadcast perspective, you can go on to Netflix and watch something whenever you want. Life sport is probably one of the only things where you have to come together at that moment. And just leaning on that and tapping into that as we go through the next few years and making sport just better than it's ever been before. And that is using technology, making it a better spectator experience, for example. We've got so many things, I think, to still tap into that. Yeah, I feel hugely excited about where sport is going. Excellent. Quick message from me today. If you are a CFO, CEO, investor or talent leader that would be interested in appearing on the Stoics podcast, please drop me an email on the address below. Yeah, I mean, I guess, quick, it's been around quite a while. So hopefully it's going to stick around a bit longer. One thing I can't quite get my head around though is with all of the good stuff from AI. And again, where we touched on where the CFO role is going is where the future CFOs come from and what that path looks like given a lot of those entry point positions. Traditionally, where people started be that as a management accountant or an auditor or junior consultant, whatever that is, that sort of, you know, you're seeing some of those roles being cut back a bit at the entry points of diminishing. Yeah, I'm fascinated actually, okay, where are the future ones going from? What does their path look like? How do they learn? Because you can't do it all on AI. You need some real life experience. But I think you just said it. I don't think you can still, I don't think you can do it all on AI. I still think there will be a level of junior resource required. I don't think they're all going to disappear overnight. I just can't see that happening. And maybe I'm being naive, but I just can't see that in the near future. So I still think there are roles in finance, whether they're management accountants, financial accountants. I still believe that there is going to be a pipeline. I also think that, and we're seeing this already actually in CFO roles is a lot of them come from strategy backgrounds, for example, corporate finance background. So I think that is definitely a trend that's going to continue. And we're already seeing some of that. But if anything, that's going to accelerate in my mind. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not getting, I'm absolutely interested in your perspective, sort of from the recruitment side, what you're seeing in the industries. But I still believe there is a level of those sort of junior roles still required to work with AI and technology, not for AI and technology to replace them, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I think it really depends on the size, scale, complexity and type of organization. I think there's so many variables within that. I think without doubt in, you know, over the course of the next five, 10 years, however accelerated teams will be leaner. I think there will be, you know, already, you know, big operational finance teams and accounting teams have, you know, they've been offshored for years. And we've had, speaking to a lot of the actually interesting, we've had a lot of what boards and teams have been asked for recently has actually been around for years, kind of some automations and robotics kind of like, that's not AI. It's been around for years. You just, we just need to do it. Yeah. So that, that'll probably all get sped up. I think, yeah, a lot of that, you know, the transactional level stuff in big organizations that that will ultimately go. But I think, yeah, as you say, I think the interesting difference would be because you speak to some startups who kind of, they might be quite young and they can go, got a CFO. And maybe a financial controller, finance manager and everything else. AI, yeah, agents, whatever. So that's really interesting. And then you've got big oil tanker. You know, enterprise level organizations that kind of, you know, we, we know, we're, we know, we're, anything like that. And actually, it takes. Five committees to get anything signed off. So we, we can't even, you know, we're not even allowed to use whatever LOM is to for our team to come. So, kind of. Yeah. OBSE ends as two ends of the spectrum, then everything in the middle. But yeah. And then to your point, there are, you know, the route to CFO that that's changed a lot. It's. I think in America was, it was often the case, but you kind of got CFOs who yet ex investment bankers, strategy consultants, even engineers, go through that route. So, yeah, I think the, the sort of traditional route to CFO is kind of, as I said, that's kind of gone. Depends on the organization, depends on the stage. Yeah. And also depends on the makeup of the wider board as well and what their skill set is, because you might, you might have a very financially savvy board already or very strategic one. And you might just want to. A different type of shape of CFO or, and then CFO role is obviously quite, I think, popular now or becoming more popular seeing as you can. Stitch it all together and it needs to be closer. I think it will come down to what what organizations, particularly, pretty small SME, small organizations want from their finance function because. And you've probably seen this much more than I have, I'd just like to say for a CFO role, and actually all you want or need is a controller or the opposite. So I think getting that organization is being really thoughtful about what they want will naturally sort of lead them to the type of profile that they need in their, in their respective businesses. So I think it's going to be very interesting for the next few years. I still remain hopeful that there will be pipelines of top talent. I just think what they've done in their early years will look very different to what I did in my early years, for example. Yeah, absolutely. How do you sort of, I mean, yeah, we touched on work, life balance and your belief on it, which I'm probably inclined to. To agree with that. But again, I think some people. Different different priorities, right? Some people wired differently and. But how do you obviously you've had some, yeah, hyper for a hard work hard young family. How do you try and maintain some balance? Prioritization is probably the biggest word. I think I may have even said this when I interviewed for the role. I'm a pretty boring guy. Unfortunately, I've worked. I spent time with my kids and my wife and I go to the gym. They're probably my three things that I do with my life. But that does mean that sacrifices are made elsewhere. I would, you asked me about any Netflix show and I won't have a clue. Yeah, because I haven't watched it. Yeah. Now I would love to be doing that. And I television and broadcast is a huge passion of mine. But something has to give somewhere. And I, I unfortunately, that's one thing that has to get deprioritized. If you talk to some of my friends, I'll say, yeah, I'm not out much on a week, weekdays. But they're right. You know, on a Thursday night, I've probably made the call now that. I'm not sure I can make it, which sucks. Yeah, but you've, you can't do everything. So I have sort of three or four things that I prioritize, as I said, and sometimes. Yeah, you've got to make choices. You can't do everything. But actually, what I have learned is. And probably mistakes I've made. Not now, but earlier in my career was trying to do everything. And actually, I've definitely let go of that and got a great team, as I say, and leaning on them massively helps. Looking at my calendar on a very regular basis, I'm quite, it's weird on a Sunday night. I'll sit down. I want to know where I am, what I'm doing in the week. Sunday nights become a bit of a ritual of, yes, a bit of work, but just getting ahead of the week. Yeah. But that just works for me. Whereas on Friday, I might try and log off a bit earlier to speak. I spend time with my kids. And again, I think it's just about what works for you and your family and your life. And I've sort of found a bit of a rhythm. I could have the gym early in the morning, for example, at five, because that's when I can go to the gym. Sounds familiar. So yeah, there's no right or wrong answer, but I think finding the answer that works for your life is probably the only thing I can encourage. And I'm not saying I've got it all right. We'll figure it out. And there's weeks where one of those three things that I mentioned is a bit out of balance. I'm not sure there's a way to avoid that, unfortunately. But overall, I hope I'm doing all right. I try and do as many bedtimes as I can. So yeah. Yeah. The work hard, prioritize any other pieces of advice, tips for people aspiring to become a CFO. One other thing that I probably didn't say is find space in your week to go over and above. It's something I've tried to do from day one. And that can be as simple as I'm going to spend the first 20 minutes of every day reading about the industry. Thinking about what's going on in the industry. And the reason I say that is that's certainly something I try to do. Just knowing what's going on in the industry in the market, whether that's if you work in sport, then what's going on in the world of sport from a business perspective, of course, yet not suggesting you spend half an hour of your day just reading football results, for example. But I think, and the reason I say that is because over time that accumulates, I could probably compare it to going to the gym, right? If you go to the gym once, it's not going to make much difference, but if you do something every day, it just opens up conversations that you can become part of that you wouldn't have been able to do in your life. And I'll hear something, a colleague might mention something, you say, yeah, I've read about that. Here's what I think. And over time, that stuff really makes a difference. So I would massively encourage finding space in your week to try and go over and above what you're currently doing. Talk to a department, you've never spoken to. Go and learn about part of the company that you just don't know about. I don't know, it could be anything, but carving out some time for that is probably one of the biggest, definitely had a massive impact on me in my early years. Obviously, you don't have time for Netflix, but podcasts, books, any do a lot of that. I do, yeah, I do. So if I'm going for a run or at the gym, then I've stopped listening to music, which again is a sacrifice, but the upside is I get to listen to some podcasts. And so some of them are the usual suspects that a lot of people listen to. But again, it's just meant that I've got an hour, hour and a half in the morning where I'm learning and hopefully taking something out of that podcast that will help going forward. Reading, I'm not so good at, tried reading and tried to, you know, the 10th page a day and it just hasn't stuck. But again, for some people, that would be the thing that sticks and the podcast won't be so find what works for you. But for me, yes, podcasts in the morning are definitely a big part of my routine. Super. And anything we haven't really covered today that's important to you? No, I don't know. Thanks for having me. I don't think so. I think if there are sort of aspiring CFOs or FDs listening, I think if there's one piece of advice, we probably haven't. I haven't reiterated enough is that sort of mentality of doing more than your day job. I cannot stress that enough. And then doing something you're passionate about. I don't want the title just for the sake of wanting the title because that won't work. I don't think I think you've got to be interested and passionate about what you're doing to make a real success of it. And just think about what you want to achieve and why, what's your why is definitely a question I think we should all be asking ourselves. Thanks. Thank you very much. I appreciate you coming in. Sorry about the phone. Don't worry.