Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
Big Industry vs. Independent Brewers: The Battle for Your Glass
Has the explosion of alcohol-free options actually narrowed our choices? That's the provocative question at the heart of my conversation with Andy Mee, founder of The Alcohol-Free Drinks Company and a passionate advocate for quality non-alcoholic beverages.
Four years ago, Andy was knocking on doors trying to convince pubs and restaurants they needed even a single alcohol-free option. Today, the landscape has transformed dramatically - but not necessarily for the better. While most venues now stock alcohol-free drinks, they're increasingly dominated by "blue label" products from industry giants, pushing innovative independent producers to the sidelines.
"When two reps from a well-known drinks distributor stood in front of my stand and said 'what's the fucking point in that?'" Andy recalls of his early days championing alcohol-free options. Now those same distributors are buying out venues' alcohol-free business, replacing craft options with mainstream alternatives.
We explore the fascinating parallels between today's alcohol-free market and the craft beer revolution of years past. Independent brewers are creating extraordinary alcohol-free beers with technical brilliance, but face distribution challenges against corporations with exclusive contracts across thousands of venues. With six pubs closing weekly in the UK and chain establishments dominating, the path for quality independent options narrows further.
The cultural shift is undeniable though. In Germany, 15% of all beer consumed is alcohol-free compared to just 1-3% in the UK. Among younger generations, the change is even more dramatic - a survey at Loughborough University found 50% of students don't drink alcohol at all. As Andy puts it: "Don't fear your peers, you're still drinking beer."
Whether you're sober curious or fully committed to alcohol-free living, this conversation will change how you think about your next drink choice. We even put our favourite alcohol-free lagers, IPAs and stouts head-to-head in a spirited competition!
Curious about exploring quality alcohol-free options beyond the mainstream? Visit alcoholfreedrinks.co.uk and discover what you've been missing. Your taste buds will thank you.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. In today's episode, I am talking to a man that I simply had to have back on for season two. Right, it's Andy Mee from the Alcohol Free Drinks Company. The Alcohol Free Drinks Company are a specialist supplier of alcohol free drinks to trade and to customers. Andy's been doing this for a long time. What he doesn't know about alcohol-free beer probably isn't worth knowing, so it's a pleasure to have him back. How are you doing, mate?
Speaker 2:ben, absolutely marvelous, as always. Brilliant to see you and, um, lovely to uh to be on your fabulous podcast again. So thank you for that.
Speaker 1:I can't believe it's been. It's got to be 12 months since the last one. It was around this time. I'm sure how have things been going for you in the past 12 months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, things have slightly changed, I think if I look back. I started the business very nearly four years ago and when I first started I was going out trying to convince people that they needed to put an alcohol-free on their menu. As you know, predominantly my business is B2B, wholesale, and that's what I tend to do most of my day, and that was that whole thing where you were meeting people, going, you know, bar managers or food and beverage managers in hotels. There's really not the call for it. That was the standard response, sort of three, three and a half years ago. It's changed so fast and that's the bit that I, you know. Really you can't comprehend how fast it's changed because the vast majority of venues I visit now have got something. Now, invariably it's a blue label product, it's a off the shelf standard big drinks industry. They've all gone to do an, a version of their product and, and so the same as actually today. There was a piece online where Rob Fink had been saying that when they first started as Big Drop, they were getting shelf space in supermarkets because there wasn't anything there, and now they're also facing the same thing in supermarkets, that the supermarkets have got a massive range. But it's your Coronas, it's your Heineken Zeros, it's big drinks industry, because they certainly hadn't woken up to it last time.
Speaker 2:One of my motivations when I did my very first northern restaurant and bar and I'm just about to do my third in a couple of weeks time was when two reps from a well-known um drinks distributor stood in front of my stand and said what's the fucking point in that? And and I swore then that that I would show them what it was. Well, now I'm losing customers. I lost quite a high profile customer for me in Manchester because the big drinks bought out their, their AF business. They bought a tap, they bought all of their cans and and it's I'm seeing that a bit more my local rugby club.
Speaker 2:I've been supplying my local rugby club with draft beer for a couple of years and recently they stopped buying off me because they got an offer from Green King to put Australia Galithia in on draft and that was that. You know they produce a check and that's what's starting to really come to the fore, that we're in a different game than we were three and a half years ago. Well, certainly for my business, and I know there's a bit of a sort of London bubble, because when I talk to a few people down there, there is still that seems to be escalating at a different pace again. But that is, I would say, the biggest change that whole. I'm not convincing somebody. They need to put an alcohol free on now. Now I've got to convince them that they need a decent one, as opposed to just putting the blue label stuff.
Speaker 1:I shall say, rather than shite, which is a personal thing, um, that's um that's really interesting, actually, and it's a side that I have never thought of before. Like going into this, I'll be honest. I anticipated to hear from you that it'd been a massive year and, you know, the growth had continued and that we're seeing people really wake up to certain options that might have not been available beforehand, but now are.
Speaker 2:But actually what we're seeing is, as you've said, more commercial businesses taking on alcohol-free and kind of crushing smaller retailers, which is… yeah, and it's the independent producers you know that I've always championed, and not just the fabulous people who have created alcohol-free-only breweries, created alcohol-free only breweries, um, you know, in nirvana's I'm northern representative up here for for nirvana and I absolutely love their products.
Speaker 2:Um, I get them ranged in some fabulous venues, um, but also you know your one-offs I love selling hawkshead trail, angel, for instance, or thornbridge is thornbridge have just done Jaipur AF, so they've taken their primary products and created an AF version of it, and so that was always my goal was to be able to be that conduit for independent producers.
Speaker 2:And now it's going kind of through the market in a way that I suppose craft beer went a few years ago where craft brewers were having to break through the monopoly of the big drinks industry.
Speaker 2:And I think what we've seen is this massive rise in your, your standard blue label, big brand product getting ranged because of the, because of the distribution we we talked about it last time and when you've got C&C owned by Diageo and C&C owned Matthew Clark and Matthew Clark goes out and distributes to so many thousand venues in this country and there is a portfolio, and it's why a lot of mainstream pubs you will go in and you will find Copperburg and Heineken zero or beck blue or whatever. So they they've woken up to the fact that they have to have an af elements on their menu. But the the other areas that they're not is is the other parts of my business, like wines and uh and spirits for cocktails. It's still that word choice and it's one that I know you're as passionate as I am about that word choice. When a customer goes into a bar or restaurant, they should be given a choice, not the default blue label stuff at which, okay, we've ticked that box we've done that.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, though, that when we're talking about more blue label products becoming available, it's almost like we're at risk of the growth of the alcohol-free sector actually limiting choice for people. If we have these big brands that are everywhere, I suppose the odds of finding good beer decreases because there's so many blue label products everywhere. I've noticed it and this is a kind of different level really, but I've noticed, for example it's a very different example, but it's kind of similar my local pub used to do Lucky Saint on tap, which was about the best I could get locally without going into Worcester or Birmingham, because I'm just outside both cities. This summer they stopped doing Lucky Saint and started doing Free Dam on Ta, which is actually to me it's a worse pint. I don't mind a Free Dam, I think it's fine.
Speaker 1:But the kind of the cynic in me said okay, a Free Dam has been around here and they're selling it for far cheaper and that's where these pubs are having it now, and I suppose that's a side that we're in danger of seeing more when you go to maybe not bottle shops, but certainly when we go to hospitality venues like cans, like Heineken, guinness, everywhere, etc. Etc.
Speaker 2:Cropping up, whereas historically you might have seen a small batch of mashgang beers, for example yeah, well, and, and the big thing for me I mean one of the niches that I have is draft beer, and I'm very, very passionate about draft beer. It's such a game changer. You know, ben, ben, as well as I do that the ability to walk around, you know, you've got a pint glass in your hand. The ABV of the liquid in that pint glass is your business, and it doesn't matter what it is, it shouldn't be a big thing, it should just be a regular tap, the same as everybody else, and actually again have a choice. Venues that are really embracing it are really doing well. I've got a fabulous bar in Manchester called Sandbar that is just by the student area, and what Dave is experiencing and he's taking quite a number of kegs off me every month is it's the true flexi drinker, or zebra striping, as it was hijacked by my lucky saint, the. The flexi drinker is genuinely using draft beer as that ability to go. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just gonna have a few tonight, I'm just gonna enjoy myself and that's wonderful and then it's so. So now, if I've got a challenge, it's it's just put a tap on. I I can tell you I've never had a single venue who's put a tap on with beer on draft. Who's phoned me up and gone? Actually, andy, no, it didn't work, I'm not bothered, I won't do it again. They all realize.
Speaker 2:And then it comes back to the quality issue, because when we see guinness later on this year rolling out draft and to be fair to Guinness, well, to be fair to Diageo, through the Guinness people, you look at the six nations that we're in at the moment. Again, this is the third year where everything is Guinness Zero. They're in all the bars in Twickenham and they're really pushing the normalization. Because that's another thing that we talked about last time. It's the normalization of drinking alcohol-free. It shouldn't be an issue. The reason that you're drinking alcohol-free isn't an issue. I put together some beer notes. You'll actually be able to see it upside down at the start. But basically it said don't fear your peers, you're still drinking beer, and just quoted the Stop the stop sober shaming campaign from alcohol change.
Speaker 2:Because I believe that people have just got to get over this thing and I know you've mentioned it a lot in your posts you're still drinking a beer. You're just drinking a beer that hasn't been processed to the point at which it becomes alcoholic. It's got barleys, yeast hops. It's got brewers that have to have, actually, dare I say it, better skill sets to be able to stop the fermentation, to be able to take the yeast out but still have all of those elements in it to make a damn good beer, and then, when you put it on draft and you taste it, it's phenomenally good. So, yeah, I I think think that certainly b2b it's changing. I'd say b2c, um, yeah, in the run-up to Christmas, best year I've ever had, really great.
Speaker 2:I would also say, though, that a lot of people have said, oh, you must be really busy in dry January, and I think consumers have changed as well. End consumers, because I think January is becoming an abstinence month. I think people, they don't go out, they don't have curry takeaways, they just abstain, and it's becoming a sort of kickstart your health month where people just don't do anything. They yes, there were a number of people who purchased from my website, but it wasn't the hockey stick that people think that january is going to be, and I can only go by. You know my sort of circle of friends, people who people have been long-standing drinkers, who just go no, no, we're having water this month, it's so you know, we're not doing that, we're not having takeaways, we're not going out and it it was almost this you know, beating yourself with a birch twig kind of mentality that January is just becoming this month where people just they don't do anything. You know, they're all skint.
Speaker 2:This month in particular, this January was a five-week month. People were paid the week before Christmas, so it's often for people it was a six-week month, having had christmas at the front of it, and you know the the economy is not best of health as far as I could see it. Um. So yeah, january, january just wasn't, um, the huge kind of selling period, b2c and and in b2b, yeah, I think they suffered that, people just weren't going out. Um, so yeah, it's been a funny month. January, I have to say, got a bit better in February already, but yeah. So I think, going back to sort of the original question, I think what I'm seeing is there is consumer change and venue change in the way at which they're treating alcohol-free beer and venue change in the way at which they're treating alcohol-free beer.
Speaker 1:I think that this year will be possibly the most interesting year to date in terms of alcohol-free beer and people's perception of it, because I mean, for me, in January I was skint, primarily because of how many breweries decided to put out a fucking beer and I was seeing a lot of limited edition runs that didn't make sense to me as to why they were limited edition. I was in a conversation with brew york over juice for safe um on my video with the uh, with with the yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:with with all brucey on the can, the With old Brucie on the can.
Speaker 2:The silhouette of Brucie on the can yeah.
Speaker 1:For me it's like that's a core beer, like it's probably their flagship beer in terms of full-alc. I think I have that right. So to release an alcohol-free version, that was very good. Actually, I can't compare it to the original because I've never drunk the full-alc version, which always really disappointed me. But I didn't get so.
Speaker 1:But like three months later, um, when I first found that can, because I'd have loved to have drunk it and I think I realized on whilst I was doing my video for the beer that it was limited edition and it made it into the cut of it, because I went on a rant about limited edition beers being released in january and it was like, just give them to us all year round. And, um, they came back to me actually and said that we are, we are thinking of making it a core beer, um, and utopian, of course, with their fantastic um pilsner. That's a core range beer now. So it'll be interesting to see how many breweries take on these January releases as core beers. I think Wiper and True are another brewery that I've got my eye on, because didn't was it you that told me they bought a reverse osmosis machine, or was that somebody?
Speaker 2:else.
Speaker 1:I might have even made that up, but it makes sense because they did the four collab beers. That were very good and and I'm hoping they do a lot more if they have invested that much money in the process. So I think this year will be really interesting, based on january alone, to see if people carry it on and continue with this kind of change in their mentality.
Speaker 2:You're right. I think the pressures that some of the breweries are going to come under though as well. Ben, the question of pasteurization is massive, yes, and I I've got a wonderful little brewery just down the road from me in leeds who've stopped doing af because they can't afford the pasteurization. And this is another thing that is going to be a challenge for some of the smaller brewers, and it's in terms of pasteurization um, not 100, sure about all of the the terminology, but basically your pasteurization into a tin and the cross-fertilization that can happen, and it happened with the mash gang, or we Can Be Friends collab, where they got a bit of cross-contamination in the tins before they were filled and the things were exploding and the pressure that's now on.
Speaker 2:And also there's that awful report that's been put out by an American supposed think tank, who is actually supported by the American Brewers Association, saying that unpasteurized alcohol-free in a keg is unsafe, which is bollocks. It isn't unsafe, it is not unsafe at all. It's a closed unit. So how it's going to become, become unsafe, I don't know yes you can't cask alcohol-free beer.
Speaker 2:Of course you can't, because cask does have the oxygen that goes into the cask. As you've pulled a hand pump, you're actually putting air into the cask to push the beer up through the pipes. But with keg product it's fine. So there's a lot of disinformation, but the whole element of pasteurization is one that is having to be looked at by every single producer and that's going to put pressure on some of the smaller brewers, because the kit for that is expensive, and I can see that being an issue for some of the smaller brewers, because the kit for that is expensive, and I can see that being an issue for some of the smaller independents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was looking into doing a beer with this is a while back. It was a very kind of do you want to do this with me kind of conversation. I said, look, let me cost it up for you first and see what we're looking at. And it was an interesting experiment for me just to look into. You know what a contract brew would cost and the kind of logistics surrounding that. And the pasteurization was like whoa, that's a lot. But then you, you know I feel better drinking a pasteurized can. I know that for sure.
Speaker 1:And I think, like, is that just down to education with alcohol-free? Because obviously there is a lot that can go wrong with an alcohol-free beer, which is why it often takes breweries a fairly long time to release their first one. I mean, I was sent a video from Basham bash and brewery, their first alcohol-free beer. That was shockingly good, actually really, really good. But I got sent a video of them in the boil just like scooping out this.
Speaker 1:It just it looked horrific out of one of the tanks and I know that with with the collab that me and sam did on the um on the pale, that was going to be a different beer but that failed due to a different reason, that the yeast got overexcited and it came out about one percent. And it was like we could sell this one percent beer and like not do it as a collab, just let sam do his own thing and release like a low abv, one percent. The issue was it tasted shit as well. Um, so that you know, and that for him, although he's releasing, I think, some of the best alcohol-free beer in the country, sam, we can be friends very early days for him. Yeah, like imagine if that was his first brew and if he put everything into it and then it it failed. That's like how do you?
Speaker 2:recover from that. Well, that's it, and and that's the economy of scale issue that they all have. You know you're talking 20, 30 hectoliters of beer. That's significant amount of capital invested because, quite rightly so, the contract brewers are saying up front you've got to pay me up front and I was taught at a very, very early age when I first bought my first business cash is king, cash is totally king. Like you've just said, it can take one small thing that blows it and yeah, it's fraught with a few things. But then, having said that, and yeah, it's fraught with a few things, but then, having said that, when the producers get it right, like you just said, some things that are out in the market at the moment, just phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal beers.
Speaker 1:And that I see I was saying recently, like some of the beers that you drink now. If you'd have put those to your lips five, five, ten years ago, it would have blown your mind like the progress that has been made by producers of the liquid like it's been.
Speaker 2:It's been revolutionary really I think as well I, when I do a bit of a corporatey thing, I have a little powerpoint presentation and I have a caliber and a, a Barbican beer map as my second flight and I say, thankfully, the world has gone a long way since these two products. The problem is that the baby boomer generation, of which I am the perception, is that still is what it's going to be and it's not helped by, thankfully, thankfully, the wonderful work you did on that there, that venue that threw that bottle on the floor, that that type thing. And we've just had that channel 4 program which, yeah, that was good, you know, it did highlight then people like the products and stuff, but it was still in that. I felt in that whole tongue-in-cheek of what's real, is it, you know, and that I find so frustrating, of course, it's fucking real. It's real beer. People have put time and effort into making it a real beer. Stop saying it's not real, it is just happens to have the thing it's.
Speaker 1:It's when you've got. Like there are some drinks that I look at and I think, okay, you are a malt drink, like there's no brew in it and we all know the beers that exist for that and and we don't drink them unless we're sent to a venue and told to drink them. And then we talk about how they're not really beers afterwards. But that's my fault for getting in trouble. But in terms of you've got, I shouldn't have fucking said that You've got beers that are.
Speaker 2:It's alright, you can edit it out later.
Speaker 1:We'll just keep it in. I've done enough damage already. But you know, I'm sure we've both been to breweries and seen these beers being made. Right, it's the same fucking process, it's just, it's just evolved. This is what got me and we will get on to the um this video that we discussed about the smashing of beer on the floor. Um, but my thing is, it's the same process, just without the ethanol being produced, and the science has developed. I mean, the science was always there, but people have developed a certain skill set to be able to produce the liquid without the ethanol.
Speaker 1:It is still beer, it's just a non-alcohol beer, and the two do have to be separated because they're two separate things, but they're also exactly the same thing. It's like Coca-Cola and Coke Zero. You know? Like which one do you want? Do you want full alc beer? Do you want non-alc beer? You're still having a beer Like. That's the main thing. The video, of course.
Speaker 1:Lowlander Grand Café in London context, there was a video describing the best way to open an alcohol-free beer and they proceeded to smash the bottle on the floor. And I was sent that actually from one of the guild members and I watched it and I thought, yeah, I've seen this video a thousand times three years ago, two years ago but it just sat with me and I was thinking actually that we're not, and I think it's because we don't really see videos like this anymore, like the, the attitude has changed and I think it's because of brands like guinness and old, peculiar and proper job etc. Kind of releasing beers and telling people that it's okay to drink alcohol-free beer because we support it. Like god knows what would happen if if carling do one like forget about it. But no, I sat on this video and I thought, no, I'm gonna just address this.
Speaker 1:Because when I stopped drinking alcohol, the thought of not being welcome into a pub or a bar or a hospitality venue was terrifying and it was a really lonely period in my life where I didn't feel like I was welcome to enjoy the things that I used to enjoy the world of alcohol-free beer and people like yourself and other alcohol-free beer commentators, distributors, breweries etc. Made me feel like actually there is a place for me in the world, still not too similar to where I was beforehand. Just, I'm not a fucking arsehole anymore because I'm not drinking alcohol. So I thought, no, I'm calling this out and I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I remixed their original video so that it appeared on both of our pages and they uh proceeded to block me and remove my version of the video and um, and they've since issued an apology because everyone jumped on them for doing it. But yeah, I just it got me really angry, so I was like I'm gonna discuss this, because you're telling people here that if they're not drinking full alcohol, beer, then they don't belong in hospitality venues, and what they are using to substitute isn't good enough and that's just bollocks, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I'd rather I'm not going to quite show my hand in our beer off too much, but I'm just going to see if we can see this. This beer the the ingredient. The ingredients are yorkshire water, malted barley oats yeast. That's it. That's what's in this bit, and that's what's in every beer, and that, that's the bit that, to your point, just becomes so frustrating, yeah completely. To get anything out.
Speaker 1:German beers. I've got a German beer in my hand. This is Spaten, which is fantastic or Spartan. I think it is pronounced Spaten, but I don't know. I can't actually read the ingredients because they're in German, but it's Wasser, which is obviously water, hopfen, which is hops. Well, it's going to be water hops. Yeast malt, isn't it? Because it's a German beer, like you know. Same ingredients.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you've got a German beer. Did you see the stats that came out earlier on this? Last week In Germany, 15% of the beer drunk in Germany and think how big that market is. Percent is alcohol free? In this country it's one percent, rising potentially three percent depending on which stats you, you, you, look at, but in germany it's 15, it's totally normalized.
Speaker 2:It isn't a thing. And why it's a thing? I I always say to people look, I grew up in the time, gentleman, please culture. So people of my age, where pubs would only open, say, from 12 till 2 and then 6 till 10 on a Sunday, and every pub in the country at 20 past 10 used to ring a bell to give you the warning that you only had 10 minutes to hit the bar and get as many pints as you could carry back. You were then given another bell 20 minutes after that to say that you were supposed to have finished them all up. And we wonder then why this country in particular has got this reputation of being binge drinkers. Because we used to throw it down our necks. I mean, you would go to the bar, particularly on a friday or saturday night when the last orders bell was rung and you'd go back to the bar from the bar with three pints in your hand because that's where you could carry. And you know that throwing it back it doesn't happen anywhere else. Even the Germans with their beer colors and their beer culture, they don't throw it back like that. It's a social thing and I get really frustrated and as well, when I talk to venues about their offerings.
Speaker 2:Originally, a pub was, of course, a public house. It was there to be a communal hub where people went. It was not get pissed here. And it was created so that the community had somewhere to go, because invariably everybody had two small houses and you know your back-to-back tenement buildings and all that kind of stuff. A public house became a venue Again. People of my age will relate to, you know, being on the steps of a pub with a Coke and a pack of crisps because your dad had stopped in, you know, on the way back to see some friends or people who had like football, supporting cultures and that kind of stuff. But it was a community thing. With the dramatic decline in Gen Z spending money on alcohol, venues have got to think what am I actually going to do to entice these people in?
Speaker 2:I was doing a presentation and an exhibition as part of Venues of Excellence Conference and there's a wonderful Jo Maher's her name. She's a lecturer, she's a professor in Loughborough University and she's done gold medalists and so on. Anyway, she was talking about venues having to look at the market going forward and she then had this wonderful slide and frankly, ben, if I'd played her I couldn't have had a better advert. Um, but she said 20 years ago, if you'd have lined up a thousand loughborough students, 98 of them would have said they drank. And she said and in fact it probably would have been seven years ago, but she'd got got some stats she said the student union bar in Loughborough University is basically going bust. And that's my interpretation of you know, it's basically going bust. And so they did a survey of a thousand Loughborough students. 50% of them came back and said they don't drink at all and the other 50% were mindful they certainly didn't drink every night and that they would choose when they drank. They then asked what can we do to the student union to get you to come in more often? And one of the main responses was board games. Now I know that sounds daft, but board games meant to me social, make it a social space.
Speaker 2:The venues of the future I believe very strongly that they have to be more. They have to go from a coffee shop kind of environment soft, you know, sofas and stuff like that and they'll morph through the day and they'll have they'll have maybe things like board game nights, but they'll have bring your own vinyl, you know they'll have open turntable nights. They'll have have things on that don't revolve around getting pissed. They revolve around the social engagement of human beings and that's the thing that I feel very passionately that alcohol-free not just beers but cocktails and wines can create still that environment. I always say I'm an adult, I have an adult taste. It's about flavor and taste. I think I said to you my whole journey, this whole me being here, and everything started in a curry house.
Speaker 2:Having gone sober on the 6th of March 2021, post-lockdown, I went for a curry in the May and I said to the guy I'm alcohol free. What have you got? He said sparkling water, orange juice or diet coke. I said to the guy I'm alcohol-free. What have you got? He said sparkling water, orange juice or a diet Coke. I said none of those three flavors go with a chicken madras. I need a bit, and that to me, and it's why I do what I do. It's not about preaching or anything like that, it's just about choice and flavor association. I've got now and it was hard At the very beginning. Beginning it really was hard. Some of the wines were truly, truly dreadful my god, yeah, tell me about it.
Speaker 2:Um, I've got some terrific wines now and if you see them as a flavor association to what you're eating and that to me is the big thing I always talk to people about when you drink an alcoholic wine you get two things you get a sensation and a flavor. And with a de-alcoholization process the sensation's taken away, because if you're drinking a heavy carbonate, terminion or a Zinfandel or whatever, 14-15% ABV is creating the sensation. So the moment you put it to your lips you're expecting the sensation, not necessarily the flavor of the grape. And so now, with some of these really cool de-alkalization technologies at which people are starting to bring into wine, people have got to realize they're drinking the grape as it should be drunk. It's the flavor of a Shiraz, it's the flavor of a Pinot Noir, it's all of those elements. But it tends and I always try to say to people, non-sparkling wine is an accompaniment to a meal, it's the flavor profile. I went out for dinner on Friday night and had a wonderful meal and took along because it was one of my customers, I took along a couple of bottles of the Alkalized Rose and it was lovely, pairing was just perfect of the Alkalize Rosé, and it was lovely, pairing was just perfect and these kind of advances, when people are open-minded to go, okay, yeah, I'm drinking the flavor, I want the taste profile, then they'll realize how wonderful these products are and that they are totally normal.
Speaker 2:But I fear for venues that don't going back to your man who smashed the bottle on the floor for venues that don't get it. There's a very well-known chain of wet pubs up here that are just not reopened. Half of them haven't reopened since the pandemic. I truly believe the wet pub is dead because the way at which it markets itself, if you like, you know it's just simply a venue to come in and drink lots of types of beer, certainly not what Gen Z are doing. I would argue that even you know some of the slightly older people into their 30s, particularly I found when I do food and drink festivals, talking to young families um, you know, sort of 30 some things who are pushing a push chair. They've given up alcohol and they've given it up because the realization of teething two-year-olds and you know I don't want to be changing nappies at two in the morning on a hangover, etc. Etc. And one guy said to me very particularly he said I don't want to jeopardize anything my kid's choking at two o'clock in the morning and I passed out because I'm pissed and something happened. I would be mortified. I'd never be able to look at myself in the mirror and people are starting to realize that. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of change. I'm with you.
Speaker 2:I think 2025 will be an amazing year. I think we'll see some even more phenomenal products coming. I've got a pallet load of wine coming from France which I'm really excited about. The spirit, the way in which people are looking at how they can deal with spirits Smiling Wolf, for instance, a de-alkalized spirit range so started at 40 abv I mean de-alkalized down to 0.5. The botanicals at which um spirits of virtue are able to work with now to create flavor profiles, to the point at which one of us did went to one of my customers in camden uh raven records and had a bourbon neat, a neat bourbon, and his instagram video of it is just phenomenal. It's brilliant because he was a neat one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, that is that's progress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I just think. I think so many wonderful things are going to happen. But a little bit to what you said right at the beginning of this how much of this growth is going to be accessible to independents, now that big drinks have woken up to this sector? It's not going to go away and I accept that there's been false dawns in the past and I accept that Caliber and Barbican were a bit of the past and I accept that, you know, calibre and barbican were a bit of a joke and all of that stuff. But this now, this is not a phase, this is not fad, this is real. This is a sector that in germany, 15 of the beer sold in germany is non-alcoholic, and and woe betide anybody that still sees this um, this sector, as a joke.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that? Um, amongst the younger generation? Why? Why do you think that the drinking culture is starting to shift? Do you think it's so? There's? There's two ways to maybe go down here. Obviously, a lot of their time growing up was spent in lockdown and in pandemic kind of periods. But also, do you think that they're seeing the effect that alcohol might have had on their families? Because I suppose we're reaching an age now where the younger generations kind of fathers, mothers, grandparents are maybe starting to feel the effects of alcohol, be that alcoholism or just alcohol in general.
Speaker 1:Do you think that they're just thinking I want no part in it yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think there's a number of factors and that is definitely one of them and one of my one of my children doesn't drink and it's because, you know, I I, as his father was, was an alcoholic and my anger and my just demeanor and everything was something that he's gone. I don't want to be part of that. You know, I'm quite happy with an apple ties. I don't want to be involved in any of that. I think you've mentioned the pandemic.
Speaker 2:I think that mindfulness and understanding of um their own well-being and, yes, sure, I mean there's there's been headlines in the past few weeks, as you may have seen, you know out, alcohol free is the next vegan. Uh, it's a you know real kind of movement, but I think it. I think it goes back to them still wanting to socialize, but they socialize in different ways. I think you have got this 24-hour gym culture that certainly wasn't around when I was younger, that they are quite happy to be in a gym at 10 o'clock at night and they look after themselves. I think mobile phones as well are a big thing. I just feel that none of them would want to be videoed out of control. I mean, thank god there weren't mobile phones when, when I was uh growing up and and for you, I've seen some of the fabulous haircuts and styles that you had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the videos don't get any easier.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you that, but you see that they're mindful of their effectual legacy. Now you can't do anything in any situation without somebody holding a phone to video you. It was an amazing thing. I don't know if you saw it. It came out today on LinkedIn. Of all things, it was somebody's TikTok video of raving in the knees and you know proper rave and everybody's sweating. And then they switched to a rave. That happened a month or so ago and everybody stood there with their phones in the air recording the DJ. It's like what are you doing? Yeah, beat down on sweaty and dirty and just enjoy it, just dance. That's what they're there for, but that's something that they feel more comfortable in doing. And I think the awareness there's obviously the big thing about cancer warning labels on alcohol from Ireland in May of 2026. They're the first country to fully mandate cancer warning labels on alcohol from Ireland in May of 2026. They're the first country to fully mandate cancer warning labels.
Speaker 2:And look what cancer warning labels have done to smoking. You go back 76 years and the National Health Service in this country used to prescribe cigarettes because they thought that coughing was good for them. And nobody ever-. Your doctor smokes Camel. Yes, exactly, exactly right, the coughing was good for them. And nobody, your doctor smokes camel. Yes, exactly, exactly right. And and no one, ever, no one ever questioned it and no one has ever questioned.
Speaker 2:And I go back to my time, gentleman, please, culture, no one ever questioned it, you didn't. You didn't sit back. You know, is this thing good for me? You just track it. And they, you know the, the drinking rituals around universities, which thankfully now have stopped. Um, you know, all of those things that were done that have changed because the culture has changed, are for the better. Um, and it's not that, it's not that people are saying you've got to be boring, or or they call it woke culture or whatever like that. It's just giving people freedom and choice and not putting societal pressure on saying you have to drink alcohol to have fun, because, as you and I both know you damn well don't.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've had much more fun since. I mean, don't get me wrong, I had a lovely time when I was drinking, for a lot of it, but the times that were terrible, nearly ended my life. So you know, it's kind of everything in moderation, right, which, as alcoholics, obviously we can't do that. Tell an alcoholic to moderate, it just doesn't work, does it.
Speaker 2:I often say to people look, there's nothing stopping me from going to Morrison's and buying a bottle of wine, apart from one very fundamental thing I don't want to. And I say to people who want to give up alcohol and if anyone's listening to your podcast who's thinking they do find your, why, why do you want to stop? And once you find your why you will stop to a mindset of well, why would I do that? Why would I go to Morrison's? And I have some lovely people and people I have known for a long time who will still question it and say you don't think you'll ever go back to it. I don't know. I don't because I don't want to.
Speaker 2:Now, you and I both know the knock-on effect of having a. Oh yeah, I think I can cope with. Just having one would be, you know, the floodgates open and it would be a nightmare. But fundamentally I am able to say and sit here and say I just don't want to, I don't need it. And that's the other bit, that the joy of the discovery of alcohol-free drinks. I don't need it because I'm comfortable with going. Yes, that bottle of red wine goes well with that steak and that's what I want. I want that flavor association. The beers that I drink on a regular basis go with whatever I'm having. If I'm having a curry takeaway or my son and I are going to cook something up and I'm going to have a cold beer, it works. It's a flavor association and it's that mindset shift that I think the Gen Z have also done. They've gone yeah.
Speaker 2:I like the taste, and it may be. I like the taste of a soda, great fine, if it's a flavor and a taste, and also as well, your palate changes. Your palate changes as you get older anyway. But if you're happy to come to terms with, you just don't want the alcohol in your life. You don't need it because your palate changes anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can drink beers now that I wasn't know a fan of Budweiser as a full beer because it was a volume drink and I could drink a lot of it and I liked anything that could get me nice and pissed Drank Budweiser alcohol free, it went down the sink. Maybe six months ago a friend was coming over and he was driving so he bought alcohol free beer from the supermarket Budweiser. He had a couple said oh yeah, this is alright, left me with a couple of cans and I thought I'm gonna have to drink them because they're in my fridge and they're taking up space. So I opened one, drank it and thought this is like I mean, it was ice cold. It's like this is a crisp, perfectly palatable lager. What the fuck has happened to me?
Speaker 2:and I'll never know if it's just that my palate has changed, which I suspect it is or if it's, yes, you know, palate has changed, which I suspect it is.
Speaker 1:I think so, yes, you know, because at the end of the day, I would assume they're doing research and developing all the time, but I don't really trust that they are.
Speaker 2:No, budweiser was always called sex in a canoe for a reason, and the reason was it was fucking close to water. My God was fucking close to water. Oh, my god and um, if you remember when the world cup was in um, the middle east, and then, um, I could have throttled the ceo of budweiser because what a moron. So they, they procured all the budweiser and then, of course, they weren't able to sell it. Last minute thing couldn't sell it. They were able to sell Bud Zero. So instead of standing up in front of everybody and saying I'm really sorry, we're no longer able to sell beer, what the idiot should have said was we're not selling alcoholic beer. We've got Bud Light Zero still a beer and we've got loads of it. So you know, there's still beer being sold. It just happens to not be alcoholic and it honestly could have let the throttle down.
Speaker 1:It comes back to the kind of conversation that we've loosely touched upon, with brands like Old Peculiar releasing alcohol-free beer and Brains releasing alcohol-free beer, and I think it's when these places release alcohol-free beer people go well, if they're doing it, they're telling me it's okay and I respect that brand. Like there's a particular type of drinker that will really listen to what Guinness tells them and what Old Peculiar tells them, and I think they're the drinkers that fascinate me, like that's my dad, you know, and his generation of drinking in the 70s, and that's the kind of person that I really want to understand, because there's not really been anything for that drinker. Nirvana recently did an amazing Best Bitter, which was probably the first other than Sam's Brown Ale, the first one that I thought oh, we're really getting here with English Ale now and that was a real breakthrough.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, well, it's interesting as well. I think you'll see the example that you've just used there with Thigston's, now Peculiar. So their brand, their flagship brand, they're now making AF versions of it. And I mentioned Jaipur and Thornbridge Now, whereas Thornbridge had had 05 for a long time and this is also the switch that we're going to see this year a lot more so 05 has been discontinued because Jaipur AF is where they're going to be and, as both the CEO of Thickston's and of Thornbridge have said, we're not putting our flagship brand on an AF until we are damn sure it tastes right, and that's the thing. And I think, again, going back to Guinness and they were the same, you know they had that whole with where we withdrew it and it was around for eight months because it wasn't right, and today it's right and that then, like you said earlier, it just normalizes the drinking of alcohol free.
Speaker 2:You've got a pint of Guinness and when it is on draft as it's coming, they announced I can't remember what the name of the pub was in Soho. Who were the first ones to have it on draft? They announced I can't remember the name of the pub was in soho. Who were the first ones to have it on draft. They'd had. Yes, I remember the name um micropore was down in brighton and a few other places got it. Which, but it was still a can this was, and they were selling 500 pints a week in one small bar in soho of alcohol-free Guinness. And as that rolls out across the UK, it will really help to stop sober shaming. It will help to normalize it because no one's going to know. It's just there, it's going to be a Guinness, it is a pint of Guinness. It just happens to be a Guinness without alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's one of the most recognizable kind of brands, isn't it? Like Guinness is stout to a lot of people. This was a conversation I had very recently and it's everything about it. It's the kind of the ritual I mean.
Speaker 1:Ritual is a real big word for us non-drinking drinkers like to use, because it is the ritual and having a pint of Guinness in your hand feels special, like, even if I'm in a pub and it's come out of a can and they give it me in a Guinness glass. It just makes it feel right, like there's nothing worse than being given a, a bottle of like. Let's say you go to a particular chain pub and the best thing they've got is is an erdinger wheat beer. Um, they give it you in a like a stellar glass or a coca-cola glass and it's just, it just makes it feel yeah, not proper or like it shouldn't be there. It's, I mean that is me being particular, because since I've got into this world, it's you know, I'm very aware of these things. So that is my own, my own thing to get over. But it is the ritual and it's I think it's respect for the liquid, which I think is what, but it's also have in germany a lot more.
Speaker 2:You're the customer. Your credit card is exactly the same as somebody who wants an alcoholic Guinness. It's totally the same, but be treated the same. The Erdinger is a prime example of the power of the blue label. That's pushing that into everywhere. That Copperburg in terms of cider, heineken, zero, bex, blue and guinness that that's pretty much your lineup in most of your chains and that then hits the chain restaurants and you know your pizza venues and all those kind of things. It's the same stuff and that's the bit that we have. You know, going back to what we were saying before about, we've got to break that bit because you can have a hell of a lot better with your burger or your pizza or whatever. But then you know it's the kickbacks, it's the amount of zeros on the check that they hand out to venues like that, that they uh, as it would be a real shame.
Speaker 1:It would be a real shame, with the progress that we've seen in the last few years, to kind of revert back, like for people that have been in this world, seeing it grow and seeing more options, because we were aware of these blue label brands. It's the external people that maybe aren't always looking for an alcohol-free beer or drink. They won't have noticed these things creeping in, but all of a sudden it's like, oh, there's a lot of alcohol-free beer or drink. They won't have noticed these things creeping in, but all of a sudden it's like, oh, there's a lot of alcohol-free stuff here, whereas to the person that has been consuming this stuff for the last few years, what we could actually be at risk of seeing is more options but less choice. Correct, does that make sense? Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I've not thought of that. Yes, that's what will help. Sadly, that is a shame. That is a shame and an interesting point and I'm I'm curious to think about how, how we can combat that. Like, do you see alcohol-free beer becoming like like almost a brew dog? When they, when they launched, when it was kind of a little bit punk and when craft beer was fairly new, do you think that alcohol-free beer will take up that form and it'll kind of be a fuck you to the blue label brands, or do you think people just don't care enough about it as a whole?
Speaker 2:I'm worried it's the latter, I think the former former. We've seen part of that with MASH Gang. You look at what MASH Gang were a year ago in relation to the innovative, the can design, all of it. And I know they're going through a few issues and I know they'll be coming back bigger and stronger and they're going on draft as well. Chug is the first one to go on draft, in a few weeks time, hopefully, but they were the punk and I hope that the new owners will give the guys still the freedom to push the punk a bit further.
Speaker 2:Um, the the element of the second part of your question is when you've got a chain like Wetherspoons, with the power of Wetherspoons take that. Or the Stonegate Group with 4,600 venues, or any number of those kind of things you've got, and star pubs which are owned by Heineken. If we continue to lose independent venues, take the drink off the table for the moment and let's look at the venues. If we continue to lose the independent venues, then the second thing will happen because we lost. Well, the stat came out we lost six pubs a week during 2024. So for the 52 week, we lost six pubs in this country every single week and from what I'm reading, the pressure is actually mounting and this impact of the budget in April and the reduction of rate relief, which is what they were getting, we could be losing more. So let's say we lose 10 pubs a week and the majority of those are independently owned and run pubs. All you're going to be left with is venues from the big chains and in that instance, absolutely the second point that you raise there is what will happen because there won't be anywhere to go and have a mash game or a jump ship or you know.
Speaker 2:It's that that's going to put the pressure on me. There's also going to put pressure from the other side of my business, the likes of the restaurants, when every high street is struggling to have an independent. You know young couples who would have gone through catering college who were like I'm desperate to run my own restaurant and the pressure that is on them, the costs that are there, all of those things, and yet you've got a zzz's or a you know ass pizza that rolls in with with all of the money and all of it, that kind of, and that then becomes default for high streets going forward, where you've just got chain, you've got chain pubs and you've got chain restaurants, then there is no choice because it will simply come down to and porridge rights how much a brewer is prepared to pay in porridge rights? And when they do that, it's not going to be great because there's not gonna be choice.
Speaker 2:So that's again why and I'm a big fan of support your local independent, your local independent restaurant, your local independent pub don't just go to the chains, default to the chains, because for some bizarre reason you think going for a breakfast in a weather spoons at nine o'clock in the morning is a thing to do. Go and support the independents. Go and try different beers, be it alcoholic or non-alcoholic. Go and try some, because you've got venues that have got some phenomenal products. Go try it. Go support them.
Speaker 1:While we're on the topic of choice, actually this leads us nicely into something different for this podcast. That was your suggestion, actually, and I'm more than up for playing along where we're going to pick three beers each and when we put the little teaser video out for this podcast, we'll allow people to vote for team Ben or for team Andy based on what? They think, uh, the better beers are, and I'm worried about my lager choice.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna lie um you're worried about your justification I am gonna knock lager out of the park, there's no question about it. Just just just give in now.
Speaker 1:Ben okay, just go well, terribly, I've only got one of the beers in front of me. It's a spoiler alert, it's my own fucking one, because my stout, my stout, I had to give to my nan earlier. Because, right, this is a long story and it's. It's. Possibly this might be a continuation of my video podcast with umurchley Wines and Spirits, because I finished that video by saying I need to pop in tomorrow to pick up a stout for my nan, and they had the stout that I wanted was there, but not enough of it, so I had to give one of mine to her as well, because she wanted to give this can to my cousin who had come to do some work for her. This is a boring story, you don't need to hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah so come on Back to the lager. What are you putting up to the listeners and viewers of your podcast as your vote for your lager?
Speaker 1:So again, I don't have this can with me because I've drank them all and you can only buy them in packs of 12 and I fucking refuse to do that again when I have to buy as much beer as I do. It's Biro's Kingston Pills from Tom Holland and Co existing. If it was any other celebrity endorsing a drinks brand, the cynic in me would say fuck off. I like how open he has been about his sobriety. I respect that and appreciate it, and if I was in his position I know that I would bring out a beer because I love it so much. I don't know what his stance is on beer. I can only go off what he has said publicly and I'm inclined to believe that it's a passion project for him.
Speaker 1:And the liquid? You know I was going into it thinking if we get a lucky saint, we'll be very, very lucky. Pardon my pun. When I drank it I was very, very, very impressed. Is it as good as some craft beer out there? No, Does it hold up? Yes, the head retention is the best head retention I've ever had on any pilsner, Almost to the point where it was too much, and that's why it's got my vote. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Well, a good pitch, ben, Frankly a good pitch, but I'm sorry you're wrong. So here is a really amazing lager, so canned and bottled and, I'm very pleased to say, on draft. So this is Colbath Brewery in Harrogate, just up the road from me. Now I'm just pouring this in and let's just see this head develop and the glass clean on here. The natural ingredients that are used in this, as I mentioned before I mean unfortunately you are wrong, because what's also great about this? So Jim, who runs Col, runs cold bath really great guy and but very environmentally friendly so he has outsourced the brewing to waltop. Waltop grow the barley on the farm that they make this on. They recycle the water table back into the farm. There's so many things that are done and fundamentally they make a damn good lager and this is a proper lager. This isn't a pale imitation, if you kept my pun. It's a really, really good one.
Speaker 1:You're going to have to stop speaking now because you're going to fucking beat me.
Speaker 2:I can vouch for it being a fantastic lager.
Speaker 2:So we said the second one. So I'll go first. If I may, then you may. The second one we said was an ipa, so I have gone for and it was funny you mentioned special editions this is cloudwater's repose and it is got a 10 on the front of it because, uh, last Friday was cloud waters 10th birthday. So I managed to go to cloud water last Thursday and I managed to to uh nab a few cases of this because, um, yeah, I mean they.
Speaker 2:They could be argued that there's there's in inverted commas IPAs, but this typifies for me partly the industry. So Cloudwater was a, and still is a, very small craft brewer in Manchester. But they have really focused, they've pushed the boundaries. The other one I collected, um, yeah, uh, yesterday was a Negroni. Uh, last Thursday was a Negroni sour, um, fabulous, uh, fabulous sour bit. This has just, I mean, it's got such a nose that the hops that they've used in here brilliant. Again, the glass cleat look at the haziness on that bad boy there and it's just, it's wonderful when you get a brewery that really care. They were doing special edition 10th anniversary beers across a lot of their platform and this was one of the ones they really focused on because they wanted to make sure that the 10th birthday didn't forget their alcohol-free and their fabulous beers. So that's my IPA.
Speaker 1:God, I can sense this slipping from me, but I'm not going to go for the sympathy vote. Actually I'm picking this beer, which is it was a bucket list moment for me. This is Sunburst and it's by we Can Be Friends and myself. It's my first collab beer. Having my name on this can was the finest moment in my albeit short, sober career. I've got no problem picking this beer because Sam Ray from we Can Be Friends is and this is a filthy glass because I've just finished my German lager and I didn't bring another glass to the table, so apologies.
Speaker 1:Sam Ray from we Can Be Friends is, in my opinion, one of the finest brewers of alcohol-free beer in the country. I think the beers that he has put out look at that terrible pour. I think the beers that he has put out have been fantastic. Up that terrible pour. I think the beers that he has put out have been fantastic. This was such a pleasure to drink. It's got new zealand hops. You're getting like big pillowy, fluffy head burst of like gooseberry and lime got liquid hops in there. So the flavor this is big, big craft flavors and I think it's delicious and it's got my name on it, so that's a bonus. That will be my IPA.
Speaker 2:I'll have to get in touch with Sam then in there and get some up here and we'll see if we can't extend the range for it.
Speaker 1:I'd love to know what you think of it if you get to try it. Yeah, I think it's a really good liquid but unbiased. And then we're on to stout.
Speaker 2:So the stout? You haven't got one to show.
Speaker 1:Not physical. I've got a name, but the physical sample is with my nan.
Speaker 2:Well, it's okay, you can do a little bit of text on it and just say what your nan thought. So mine is this bad boy. So this is Fabulous Jump Ship. Now. I've been a supporter of Jump Ship and in next week I will be up in Scotland exhibiting at ScottHot25, and I'm very pleased to say that Sonia and Colin, head of Sales of Jump Ship, are going to be there and we're going to be sampling the whole of the Jump Ship range. This Stoker's Stout has always been a great seller and now they've made this which is called Extra Smooth, and let's just pull this in front of the. It's just the nose on it. The cascade, look at the cascade. Look at that. Look at that. Just a caramel. I'm getting it already caramel chocolate and and let the head on that wonderful.
Speaker 1:It is a delicious stout. I can vouch for that. The nitrogen that's that's in it has it's taken like that smoky body that stokers has and it's just amplified it and it's made it not just smoky but rich and smooth and velvety. Weirdly, that's another can. That's currently with my nan, um. She was in the market for stouts so I gave her the stouts, and in my little stout bundle that I gave to her to pass on to my cousin was Sober Brummie Stout, because I've got to represent the second city, being as it's where I almost ruined my life and then redeemed myself. Sober Brummie is a fantastic stout. It was a project that they'd been working on for a few years and it took them a long time to get it right. It goes back to what we were saying earlier about breweries not releasing products that they weren't completely content with, and the first time I had it was on tap and it blew me away.
Speaker 2:That spoiled you there, Ez.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they asked me down to the taproom to give it a try and I'd been let down by stouts. I was never a real big stout drinker. I could enjoy a stout occasionally, but it was never something that I went. Oh no, I'm in the mood for that. This was the stout that changed that for me. I went home with four cans and drank them all in one night because it was just delicious. I love that beer and I love that brewery, so that's where it's got my choice.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, it'll be interesting to see what the listening and viewing public think of our choices.
Speaker 1:We'll leave it with people, um, and if I lose, then I'll relapse? No, I won't. If I do relapse, which I really don't think I will, but if I do relapse, please, please. If you didn't vote for me, it's not your fault, it's my fault. Andy, thank you so much for coming to chat to me again.
Speaker 2:Wonderful, as always it's been a pleasure you're, you're a good lad, you've got a great sense of humor and, uh, and you're a fabulous advocate for this, uh, this part of the the industry and the beers, and you've championed independent producers so well and, um, and I love watching your videos on Instagram and uh, yeah, we, we should do a brewery tour one day. Maybe we should go.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, please let's arrange that. Like, let's let's book that in 100%. I'd love that we can document it and every yep, that's a plan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, we can document it.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's the plan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, brilliant, that sounds great Well, thank you for your time no thank you. And thank you to anybody who's managed to get all the way to the end of this podcast. We do appreciate it Because, as you can tell, when Ben and I get going we can ramble on a bit yeah that's the thing about beer, isn't it?
Speaker 1:And alcoholics put the two together and even when you remove the alcohol, it's still fucking lethal. Andy, I'll catch you very soon, my friend, Terrific Cheers fella. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Sober Boozers Club podcast with the fantastic Andy Mee To check out some of the fabulous drinks he's got available, head over to alcoholfreedrinkscouk. You can also check him out on Instagram at the Alcohol-Free Drinks Company. For now, my name is Ben Gibbs. I hope you've enjoyed this episode and I will catch you, my friends, next time.