Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
We're Still Drinking, Just Differently
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Seventeen and a half million people aimed to go alcohol free this January—and the story behind that number is far more interesting than willpower. Recorded live at the Lucky Saint pub in London, we bring together Alcohol Change UK, Lucky Saint, Counterculture Drinks, a non‑alcoholic cider maker, and sober coach Hattie from Sober Happy Free to unpack how Dry January 2026 changed the game: smarter support, better drinks, and a culture that finally treats alcohol‑free as normal.
We dig into what actually worked. From Try Dry’s daily check‑ins that double completion rates to the staggering impact since 2018—over £1.55bn saved, 258m alcohol units skipped, and 16.2bn empty calories avoided—behaviour change becomes tangible. On the ground, Lucky Saint’s 100,000‑pint giveaway turned January into a social month, not a sulk at home, while kombucha and non‑alcoholic cider filled vital gaps for people who don’t want a beer swap. The thread is inclusion: a proper pint in hand, a grown‑up soft option when beer’s a trigger, and menus that welcome moderators, designated drivers, athletes, pregnant guests, and people in recovery.
You’ll hear sharp trade insights on building an AF menu that actually sells—move past the token 0.0, curate two to four quality choices, consider sugar and functional benefits, and let staff recommend by flavour and occasion. Hattie shares how a 31‑day target grew into a sober life, and why community beats white‑knuckle grit. We also look ahead: more AF taps beside alcohol, credible cocktails without booze, fewer side‑eye questions, and pubs thriving because they serve everyone. There’s a caution, too—macro brands will flood the space if venues don’t lean into discovery and quality—but the momentum is real and growing.
Join us for a fast, funny, and grounded conversation that proves one month can reset habits, save cash, and change how we gather. If this episode helps you rethink your ritual, follow the show, share it with a friend taking a break, and leave a quick review—what’s the best alcohol‑free drink you’ve tried lately?
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is Sponsored by Chance Clean Cider.
Welcome everybody to the first ever episode of the Sober Boozers Club Podcast recorded in front of a live studio audience. I am I didn't vein, I promise you. I've got some fantastic guests here today. I've got a fantastic co-host. You are my co-host, I've decided, next to me.
SPEAKER_05:Hello.
SPEAKER_08:Hello. There we go. That was your cue. We're gonna be breaking down the Dry January Challenge 2026. As you probably know, I'm very proud to be an ambassador for Alcohol Change UK. They are, in my opinion, the best done charity in all the world. I've got some fantastic guests. We're gonna talk about all things beer, sobriety, dry January Challenge, probably a load of other shit. I don't know. Let me introduce them to you. We have the fantastic from Lucky Saint, which is where we are currently situated, the Lucky Saint pub in in rainy, rainy London at the moment. I have got the fantastic Sarah Ashworth. How are you?
SPEAKER_03:Hello, I'm good, thank you.
SPEAKER_08:It's nice to have you here.
SPEAKER_03:Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_08:From Alcohol Change UK, I have got Bree Barros.
SPEAKER_04:How are you? Doing well. Delighted to be here. Barrios.
SPEAKER_08:Barrios?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:I missed out an eye. That's my fault. That's good. Failed to prepare. Failed to prepare. And of course, from Counterculture Drinks, Tom Smart. Hello. How are you? Good, thanks. So thank you all for being here, first and foremost. It's a pleasure to have you here. This is John, I've already introduced you from Chance Clean Cider, of course, the best cider production company in the entire of the UK in the non-out sector, most certainly. And we're talking about the Dry January Challenge. This year felt different. That's the kind of vibe that we're going with for this first half of the podcast episode. I'm going to start with you, Brie, if I may. Because obviously the Dry January Challenge is a concept that was come up with by Alcohol Change UK. What was different about this year's Dry January Challenge? What have we done differently?
SPEAKER_04:I think that we've done so much differently and so much the same. So in numbers, I think it's kind of amazing that 17.5 million people elected to go alcohol free this year in January. And that's the highest number that we've had on record. That's from our pre-polling that we do in November. And the previous year it had been 15 million, which we kind of thought maybe that's the biggest that the big number can get. So to see 17.5 million this year is incredible. And we are currently doing our post-campaign polling. So we will be getting those numbers shortly. But if we're looking at last year to see kind of what was the intention versus action, it was about 8 million people who decided to, in fact, take the month off, and another 8.8 million who uh reduced their alcohol intake in some way. So about 50-50 for intention versus who went through with that action. Um, and this is where an important differentiation comes in. And John, I love the title of this podcast, the we're still drinking just differently. Um, and another differentiation that we are doing is we're not just taking a month off of alcohol and supported on our own, alone in a room, tallying the wall. Um doing the dry January challenge means that you are on a supported behavior change journey with millions of other people who are also taking part. Um, and that's why we make such noise around the difference between a DIY journey and doing the dry January challenge, because that means that you are supported with tools, with resources, with community, um, so that you are much more likely to complete a dry month. And we know when people are utilizing our free resources, they're twice as likely to complete a dry month. Um, and more importantly, 70% of those people report healthier habits six months down the road, which is of course what we are after. Um, you know, we want to see those longer-term behavior changes. And yes, the dry January challenge is an invitation to reset, to reflect, to pause, but it's also about what are you going to do carrying forward. Um and something that we did this year that I absolutely love is we leaned into the benefits and the motivations that we know prompt people to want to take that change. And that could be, you know, health, well-being, fitness, finances. Um, people are looking for benefits for mind, body, and their bank balance. And uh that was what our messaging was all about. It's not what you're giving up, it's what you are getting back when you shift that behavior and explore it with alcohol change. And I think that something that we took from last year that we also really led with this year, um is in the post-poling that people may have come in with the intention to uh boost their health, their well-being, their their wallets, but they walked away with learnings that they did not need alcohol to have a good time, that they could stay dry in situations that they didn't think that they could, and they felt healthier, happier, and more energized. So that was what this year was all about, really celebrating the benefits that people can experience and how they can do that successfully with Alcohol Change UK.
SPEAKER_08:You you touched on a really good point there in terms of being in. I can remember when I when I was trying and failing to um to get sober. I used to go to Alcoholics Anonymous, it didn't work for me. But there was a chap in there that used to talk about wet places. I don't go to wet places. Um, and that to me sounded like hell because I I want to be around the pub, I want to be around hospitality venues. The fact that people are kind of realizing that they can do that now. I mean, we're sat here with with various beverages in front of us. We've got cider, we've got a lemon beer, we've got a wheat beer, we've got another cider, we've got kombucha, which is you know a fermented adult drink, in a pub alongside full strength options. I think that's really significant when people realize that they can still go to these places and they can still live a normal life. That that's just that's fantastic, isn't it? And I think with with the lucky saint, Sarah, I want to get on to the 100,000 pints given away. That's outrageous, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's a lot. It's a lot of liquid. There's a lot of liquid, that yeah, 100%. Um, but yeah, so just kind of talking about that. So the free 100,000 pints that we're giving out were part of our Thou Shalt Go to the Pub campaign. Yep. Um, so this year was the third year that we um were kind of running the campaign. Um, and for us, kind of tapping into that, you know, just because you're not drinking doesn't mean you have to miss out on staying social. So we talk a lot about the greatest reward of drinking being the social connection and not the alcohol. And that very much doesn't need to change when it comes to January. I think people, you know, um have a negative mentality towards January and um, you know, think about staying at home. But our dash out go to the pub campaign is all about, you know, whether you're moderating, whether you're doing dry January, you can still go to the pub, um, be sociable, and be kind of included in all drinking occasions. Um, and a huge part of that I think is the fact that we are available on draft and giving out pints. So back in the day, the kind of alcohol-free beers, the alcohol-free options would be kind of hidden away at the back of the fridge.
SPEAKER_08:And terrible. I don't mind saying it, you're not allowed to, probably, but I can. Terrible. And some of them still are terrible. That's just the way of the world, isn't it? But lucky saying it's not quite obviously. I've drank about five so far today.
SPEAKER_03:So great. Um, but yeah, having just having a pint in your hand means that you can feel a part of the occasion, you can order a round of pints with your friends. Um, and yeah, that's kind of like a huge part of the point of the go to the pub campaign is to stay social, support your local in what would normally be maybe a quieter month for them. Um, and you can still stick to all of your New Year's resolutions, you can still do dry January. Whatever it is that you want to achieve in January, you can kind of do it all, basically.
SPEAKER_08:I think that's that's the thing for me. Obviously, people drink alcohol-free beer for different reasons, and I think that the the reasons that people are taking a month off alcohol are ever-evolving and ever changing. I think moderation isn't a new concept to people anymore. It's something that we're kind of getting used to in society, which is a wonderful thing. But we touch on the you know the the need for alcohol-free beer. For me, initially, it was the the anonymity that it granted. I could go in a pub, I could hold this, nobody would question anything. If I had a an orange juice in my hand, you may as well give me a balloon that says like alcoholic and put me in a pub. And early on, if I'm gonna stop doing that now because the balloon doesn't exist, but early early on in my my sobriety, because I am somebody that was an alcoholic, so I had to get sober, if this wasn't available and it wasn't good, I I could be dead now. And I've I've gone on, I will die on that hill that alcohol-free beer saved my life, because it it did. Because without that, and without being able to socialize like I used to, what's the point? That was my stance at least. So I think it's really important alcohol-free beer. I'm gonna move on to other things in a minute because you know, we do run the risk of me just talking about beer, because that is what I do. Um, but it's really important, and I think that it's need in society. I really think it's one of the most important things in in all of society, alcohol-free beer, because it gives options to like millions of people that need those options, and that is if you disregard athletes or or people who are pregnant or people that are antibiotics or or people that are driving. For the people that really need it when it's there, I think it's magic. So, yeah, thanks for that, in short. But let's talk about something different. Let's talk about kombucha. Kombucha, because the dry January challenge isn't all about beer and cider. We'll get to you. It's also about kombucha, right? It is now. This is uh this is uh yeah, it is now. This is your second year, am I correct?
SPEAKER_07:Second year as a as a partner, yeah. We actually um work with our Breeding Alcohol Change throughout the year as well. So um, but yeah, second year. We we um one of the main reasons we got into kombucha was um when my now fiance was pregnant in 2020. I sort of decided to uh cut my drinking back into solidarity, like, oh you can't drink, so I won't. And that's what led me to kind of go out and discover all these sort of kombucha brands and thinking and found the drink to be sort of is any who who's a kombucha fan in the room? Sort of hands up, yeah, good, good. Um, so our the our drinks are sort of like a fruitier soda y version, but there are lots of different types, and um personally I find the flavour of it quite satiating because you've been fermented drinks, so I found it a nice sort of alcohol replacement, and that's what kind of gave us a core sort of uh brand value of that. But yeah, it's quite a weird thing to explain to some people the sort of moldy tea in the scoby. Moldy tea? Moldy tea? Who's called it moldy tea? Moldy fizzy tea with fruit in. That's kind of the okay. But yeah, that that's that's not in our market. Oh no, maybe not. Um but yeah, we're so I drink slightly different to your Lucky Saint chance either clear like swaps, as you were just saying, about have a beer. That's certainly um how I drink Lucky Saint. I've had lucky, kind of have Lucky Saint in my bridge the whole time. Um, because personally I find that sort of 80% of the for me, the habitual thing is just having a nice tasting drink, and I almost like don't actually like being tipsy or drunk anymore. Um, but with our drinks, it's coming at it from a slightly different angle because it's sort of, I guess our brand's a bit more you can do funky stuff, it's a kind of cool soft drink, and that sort of side of things. So it's maybe one step further away from the the direct swap, but hopefully an interesting sort of adult drink.
SPEAKER_08:I think it's important as well because it it can it can be triggering for some people, and that's it's important to have options. Like I I talk about alcohol for a beer all the time, but there are people that are out there, but that's too much for them. People that will try a beer and then want the full fat version. So I think it's it's about a spectrum, isn't it? Komboutre is a fantastic alternative if you can't drink beer for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_04:From our own polling from last year, um, we know that over 60% of people said that non-alcoholic replacements um really help them get through the dry January challenge. So, but I think that that can look like all manner of beverages. Like I always come back to it, it does not matter what's in your glass, it's maintaining the ritual and then you know, making that a part of your daily. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, it's like we were saying, it's it's social situations, isn't it? What do you remember from going to the pub? What do you remember from going out? It's it's that socialization, it's being around friends. It's the intoxication, it's kind of irrelevant, especially when you've gone so long without it. For me, it took maybe three months to go, oh yeah, actually, that was not that was nonsense. I don't miss booze. I just miss actually being out in the world and seeing people. Um so yeah, I think it's I think you're you're completely right there. Tell me about cider. It's your is it your first year?
unknown:What?
SPEAKER_05:Is it your first year? Uh yes, I first.
SPEAKER_08:I thought it was. I should know that, shouldn't I? Yeah, the new boy. New boy. How have you found it?
SPEAKER_05:It's been amazing. It's been um it's been a real validation, I guess. I've I have a certain bee in my bonnet that people don't talk about non-arch cider enough. But um Jesus, I think uh the kind of span of the opering that they have, like cider's the second biggest category, third by body in the country. And um, you know, to all the points there, people want to go out and we want to have occasions and feel like we're at a festival or a gig or a football match and have those moments. And this was me sat in a kitchen on a Tuesday night going, I would probably want a cider, but there isn't one for me, so it came from a journey of me trying to find that solution. But yeah, it feels like people should be able to go into pubs and have the option of which category they want to drink and have it at that level. And it's the amazing work of beer and that's kind of pushed the level up that when we came into cider, we really had to work hard at it.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, well, and as somebody that has been to a place that you manufacture your cider and seen the process, it's a it's an intricate process, isn't it, to create a non-outsider.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's funny when you use natural things, they're bastard, yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, they really are. They really are, especially when you get fermentation and all that business involved.
SPEAKER_05:And uh Absolutely, and it's um, you know, it's it's such a emotive category, I believe, because it's pretty much everyone has a cider at some point through the year, unless apart from my wife, ironically, she doesn't like cider. But um, you know, everyone kind of has a cider at that moment, so there's this preconception misconception of it, of the level of it being great. And we were chatting before that I passed it to someone to try on, and they always the worst thing they're they're going, you know, I'm a cider drinker. And you go, Oh god, we're gonna have to be really good now, aren't we? So the level was harder, and also because we were the one of the first people to start to make it, there was no kind of roadmap, and we had to kind of batter down this it's just apple juice kind of thing, and all that fun rhetoric, which I don't wake up in hot sweats about anymore, which is good. But um, yeah, it's it's uh it's a really exciting space to be one of the first ciders trying to sort of give people the options that beer, wine, spirits have had for such a long time.
SPEAKER_08:So highlight first 12 months partnership with Alcohol Change UK, if you had to pick one. I'm putting you on the spot now, and I didn't think about it.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, apart from tonight. Well look, I think I'm I'm a massive believer that you just have to really enjoy the moments. And I think the first time you jump on a call with these guys or you see your brand next to brand, like you know, lucky saying Count Culture and Dash and all the other guys who are brilliant partners, to see our little brand next to them at the beginning is is a pinch me moment, but we're very um resolute that we should be there, and and that's been the real thing to kind of come to the table and hopefully offer something to help this brilliant campaign.
SPEAKER_08:So we're here to reflect, of course, and to celebrate the dry January Challenge 2026. Have the bin? That's a good question, I've just asked you. I'm gonna ask everyone else, aren't you? See how we did that's that's that's that's improv, baby. That's improv. If you had to pick a highlight from this year's campaign, what would it be other than giving away a hundred thousand pints of beer, which is I still think is fucking ridiculous. I love it, but wild.
SPEAKER_03:Wild. Um, God, picking a highlight. We have so much going on in January. I think maybe it's just the scale of the campaign for me as a whole. Um, I think we did the most number of events we've ever done this year. So I think in total we did over 120 events. So that covers run clubs, quiz nights, comedy night. We had a comedy night here with Alcohol Change UK, which is amazing. Um, darts nights, like we were honestly everywhere doing everything, which is kudos to the incredible Lucky Saint team. They were out every night at all of these events. Um, and I think it's the kind of live feedback that you get from people at those events, which is the most rewarding part of January for me. So, you know, people love seeing um like really great quality options out there. They love seeing uh Lucky Saint doing events, they love kind of um having options, like events to actually attend um with their friends throughout January. Um, yeah, I think that's the highlight, all of the kind of positive, rewarding conversations that you have out and about at all of these events.
SPEAKER_08:Amazing. What about you, Barry?
SPEAKER_04:I've got one. I'm of course very biased, but genuinely, like I have been so blown away with all the activity that all of our brands have taken on this year. Um sometimes it can feel like we have our campaign going on, and then there's brand activations. Um, and this year it felt like this beautiful symphony that I was so excited to see come together. Um, and I'm so impressed with everything that each of the brands have done. You know, Counterculture had a 10,000 can giveaway as well.
SPEAKER_07:Um hundred thousand. Yeah, just do it.
SPEAKER_09:We're getting there.
SPEAKER_04:But I mean, it is, it's a huge, there's so many mechanics and logistics to work out with something like that. Um, and I think it's amazing. And they had so much fun and spirit behind it, and even engaging people to ask them where they had struggled um along the way during the month. So, like, we're also going to learn from people's experiences and how to support them better going forward. Lucky Saint, the amount of activities that you guys did, like I'm I hope that you have some time off coming up because it's kind of it's yeah.
SPEAKER_08:I was gonna say there's nothing wrong with saying the end of January is my highlight of the dry January challenge because you can just sit back and chill out a little bit.
SPEAKER_04:You know, chance putting this on, and I love the way that you speak about the challenge as well. Like, there is a lot more consistency in messaging, too, and it's so fantastic to see us all working towards a shared goal, and that's what our partnerships are all about at the end of the day. It's working with people who want to see these positive outcomes and want to play their part in that. And this year, I think nailed it. Like Dash had a fantastic collab that they did with Porello that really celebrated like the ritual. And again, it's not giving anything up, it's still you can have this fantastic night in and moment um and and beaver the same out in the streets with lime bikes, uh, getting people to try lime and you zoom mocktails. Like it was just everybody had something to contribute and that they were so excited to get out there and share. Um, and you know, even on my ride here, uh every stop that I pass by seeing Lucky Saint adverts and seeing Dash, and like it's so cool to see it out in the world, and it's actually a part of our environment because alcohol is very much a part of our environment. So it's nice to see a counter message to that, and that's what January does.
SPEAKER_08:You touch on a really good point within within that. And I think it's important to, you know, when we talk about brands getting on board with the messaging from Alcohol Change UK. A lot of people look at like, oh, dry January, dry January. I mean, my favorite thing is we're talking about the apple juice. My favorite things is uh, oh, one of your friends is going to tell you to do dry January. It's important for you to tell them to fuck off. And it's oh really funny. Um, but you know, people people view dry January as a whole country, as just this thing that people do. We don't drink booze in January, but actually, there's a really important core message behind it, and that is reducing alcohol harm. And it that's alcohol change's whole modus operanda, you know. It's not anti alcohol, it's not saying alcohol is evil, you should never touch alcohol. It's it's challenging people to take a month off so that in that month they can reflect on their habits and then maybe moderate or whatever they want to do going forward. And I think people do miss that message. It's actually, you know, it's actually an alcohol change UK incentive. Like, what was it? I saw there was um there was an interview going around where it's like, oh well, you realize Droy January is from big alcohol companies. It's like No. No, no, it's not. And genuinely, me in my bedroom looking at this video about to fall asleep being like, it's not, it's not no, but I mean, but I think people don't realize that. And I think that's really important to get hold of the world.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and um, like you said, we're not anti-alcohol. I I have no personal stake in what somebody's relationship with alcohol looks like. I just hope that they feel good about it, and whatever that looks like, um, and helping people understand that if you do not feel happy with what that relationship looks like, that there are tools and support and resources that are available to you that happen to be free, um, that you can access anytime, that are independent of the alcohol industry and evidence-based and research-backed.
SPEAKER_05:So I was gonna say, we we found obviously as a as a partner, you've become much more ingrained in it. And it was almost that there was a lack of respect for it, in the way that I kind of said to Jen one day that if you look at Movember, which is obviously a similar kind of campaign to raise awareness for people's health, no one goes, Oh, you're doing Movember. But it felt okay sometimes for people to say that about Dry January when this is a moment in the year where people can change a habit that could save their life, or they could notice something that they want to moderate and change. And that's been a real um kind of the uh not an oh shit moment, but a really fortunate moment to kind of understand a bit more, being closer to it.
SPEAKER_08:I think it's one of the one of the bad things about being in this world and being really, really involved in this world is that if anyone has anything to say that's kind of a little bit backwards. You're the first person that's gonna see it, and then you get like very, very defensive over it. But then you think for every one person that's being like, hmm. You look at some of the comment sections, and actually, that is shifting. It used to be when I when I first got sober in 2022, I couldn't read comment sections on certain posts because I knew it would just be like, oh, what's the I'm gonna talk about just alcohol-free beer and out? It's like, oh, what's the point? Oh, it's rubbish, oh, it's all it's all shite, or just drink apple juice. I think that is shifting. I've noticed it's it's a little bit less. Um just I mean slightly, slightly. I'm seeing fewer, what's the point in it now, or more people willing to have a conversation about it at least now, not just be disgusted by it.
SPEAKER_03:I agree. I think so. From my personal experience, I've been at Lucky Saint for five and a half years now. So the first dry January that we did, the second, the third, you did have a lot of challenging conversations. You know, when you're out, we we did quite a lot of kind of pop-up sampling outside Sainsbury's. Um, and it was it was a hard sell. Um, but you know, nowadays I think, as you said, there's been a huge shift. I think for me personally, kind of going out to events and talking to people, you do get a lot more of a positive response. There's kind of people, I think it kind of it's reflective of the category, the alcohol free category, everything that Alcohol Change UK is doing, and kind of the awareness of the really great alcohol-free options out there. People are responding more positively and they're kind of really happy to see you. And for me personally, definitely more of my friends and more of people can I I'd talk to you or doing dry January, they kind of have a positive mentality towards that. So I think the yeah, the shift is definitely happening, which is like really great to see.
SPEAKER_05:There's a there's another level to that as well, because any category that grows, it has to have people that adopt it has to have a really good product, but it has to have awareness and visibility and all and and and availability. And I think to your point, it's it's that pubs and venues and shops are getting behind it in awareness. And I was saying the other day that if you went to a pub and said, look, January's rubbish, what about if I get you 50% of your sales back and then I could probably grow your rest of the 11 months by sort of 10, 20%? Would you be interested? And they go, Oh, well, is this like a government grant? Is this like a tax rebate? And you go, no, just put some fucking good beer and cider on. And it's such a simple solution because then people come to the intent and they go to the pub and they have a great experience and a great drink. And then when that starts to happen, and I think that's what I've felt in the trade. Like, you know, you go to trade shows and you used to work in non-alk, and they go, hmm, no thanks. And then they're coming over and go, actually, I should probably think about that. And then now you've got people having not just like he's saying, they've got an IPA and they'll have a stout, and like obviously, our big brother Guinness has done quite well to this, and then CIDA, it feels like the big cultural shift is being fanned by people being able to find it, and that's part of the giveaways. And I'm sure you, you know, your distribution and the partners you get, they're much more responsive to what you're doing than they probably were five years ago.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_08:This year, for context, and this isn't a self-plug, but we hosted in January the largest ever amount of alcohol-free beers pouring on tap to have ever been seen, but over 10 taps pouring at any given time, versus about 20 other beers in bottles. And that was just normal. It was like, yeah, why wouldn't we do that? So I think I think culture is changing, mentalities are changing, and demand is changing and awareness is changing. Um, but again, we need to stop talking about bloody beer now because I want to know about your 10,000 cans. Tell me all.
SPEAKER_07:We so um, yeah, slightly copying.
SPEAKER_08:I'm guessing this was wouldn't be your highlight, by the way, of uh you don't give away 10,000 cans.
SPEAKER_07:I don't know if everyone knows each year, so second year, Alcohol Change hosts an event in the Houses of Parliament. So I don't know some mess rat. And um that's always a highlight because you know you just you generally are at the center of like the machine. Not to make this political, I don't say anything political, but you're kind of if you are in Westminster. Um, so that that's always great. And um fascinating, um, Luke from Lucky Saint spoke at that. And sorry to bring it back to beer, but um, that's fine. One stat that he said was something like um the percentage of alcohol uh free beer in this country is like one or two percent of total beer sales, but in Germany it was like 12% or something, and that like blew my mind. I was kind of like, and so not to like downplay all the amazing progress, but it's like fascinating to imagine like that.
SPEAKER_08:900 brewers in Germany, more than 900 breweries in Germany with at least one alcohol-free beer to their range. Yeah, but they've been doing it for fucking ages. You know, we're we're catching up. We're catching up in German beer culture and Japanese beer culture, actually. Well, I'll stop talking about this in a second to go back to you. But they've been doing it for so long that it's just normal. I think that's the future that we're gonna see. You know, you go to a German beer hall, and it is completely normal to have alcohol without alcohol, alcohol without alcohol, alcohol without that's just normal.
SPEAKER_07:We'll get there here, I think. On our drinks, um, sorry, I think the cancer got it. We last year to sort of announce ourselves on the scene, I guess. We m we made a new drink, um, it's called Try Dry's, and it kind of borrowed a lot of the um Try January themes and in the labels. We've got like the dry Jan tea cup and uh the sort of tri-dry yellow and that kind of thing. So this year we kind of thought, let's um there's one on the table actually. Um so sort of like citrus yuzu, kind of like a sort of funky lemonade. Sort of we would try to kind of think of lime and soda as a bit kind of you know boring. Sorry to not offend anyone that likes lime and soda, but it's kind of more interesting version of that. Uh so this year we just we sort of just um tried to get as much out there as possible. Um, yeah, you we have we were giving cases away on a website, and um like Bree said, we actually invite as as people requested their case, we sort of decided to put in a question like, what are you struggling or what's the most challenging part of dry January for you? And it's funny, it's interesting sort of scanning the responses and seeing people talk about the weather and like the darkness and stuff, and it's kind of like, oh, I never never expect people to say that. Um but yeah, the just the whole thing. I'm just genuinely um kind of fulfilled more by working with alcohol change. It's like a reason to get up in the morning rather than just sort of crank out and sell some more cans. It's actually like mutual crank out.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, that's that's that's really sweet. A nice little nice little sentimental moment there. That's why you we come here, isn't it? That's why we do what we do. But oh, that's banging, by the way. That's really good. I poured it, I poured it up for people, but didn't hand it out, so if you'd like some, we can pass it down. It's really good.
SPEAKER_04:Do you want some of it?
SPEAKER_08:It'd be funny if you turned it down. Didn't send me any, did you? No. I'm joking for the record.
SPEAKER_04:This is one of my goches.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, no, I think because again, I'm allowed the the world of alcohol-free wine is a little bit behind. It's getting there, and it will get there. But I think things like this for a really nice, interesting, like, here's something a little bit different, but kind of fulfills that, you know, if you put this in in a wine glass and drank it as you would drink a wine, kind of fills that void. And I really like that about it. So thank you. So yeah, 10,000 giveaway, 100,000 giveaway. Podcast giveaway. Sorry, yeah. I'm joking. I'm joking, I'm joking. I'm joking, I mean, no, you're new to the scene, man, and what you're doing is incredible. What all of the brands here are doing is incredible. Obviously, what Alcohol Change UK is doing is incredible, but it's this whole, I don't want to say machine because it makes it sound all corporate. We were saying we don't want to get political, but the whole machine working together with one aim, and that is just to highlight the dangers that alcohol can cause, but also celebrate the wonderful options out there that that exist, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we want to provide people with information, right? So once you have all of the information um and knowledge of self, you can determine what you want to do with that. We do not have a predetermined route for that. Um, and I think that we'll probably talk about this more in the second part of the chat. But um, something that I'm really excited about too is that we we now have a variety of behavior change journeys that people can take at different times of the year that aren't all focused on abstaining. It's it's about making healthier choices and taking those first steps, whatever that looks like to you.
SPEAKER_08:Do you want this is going back a little bit, but I was just thinking about how I'd solve the draw january challenge. For me, as a as a beer consumer, um, you know, it's kind of all that I do with my life nowadays, which is strange, isn't it, for an alcoholic to say, what do you do? Drink beer. You can trust me. Um, for me, it was how serious breweries are taking the month now. And not only breweries that are that are directly doing the dry January challenge, but obviously breweries will put an alcohol-free beer out in January, because of course they will. But actually, these breweries are releasing these beers in into December, into kind of February, and and more throughout the year, because it's saying actually, no, we need a really solid option available all year round, rather than your token. Oh, here's an alcohol-free beer for January, it it's it's not been pasteurized, it's gonna explode in two months. And it's like, all right, thank you. Thank you for that sweet token of nothing. Um, I appreciate it. That was actually the name of the beer, I shouldn't say that. I didn't mean you. From Owner Island, it was a good beer. Um, but you know, it's kind of that, it felt like a token thing, a gesture. Whereas now, it goes back to the culture, doesn't it? I think it's more ingrained in society. Um, that it's just it's normal not to drink booze all the time, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04:So yeah, and I think that more and more people are realizing that they need to cater to a range of needs and inclusive options. Um, and that that is not limited to the first 31 days of the year, that that is something that more and more people are looking for all year round. Um, like I keep coming back to the 17 and a half million. Yeah, it's huge, isn't it?
SPEAKER_08:When you actually think about how many that is.
SPEAKER_04:Nearly a third of uh UK adults um that want to make some sort of change to their drinking. Um and last year we also saw that, oh man, what was it? How many crap, I can't remember. But um last year, I think it was right around a third as well of people who wanted to drink less in 2025 versus 2024. So again, it's not just within the month of January, it's carrying that forward. And if producers and venues are not catering to those needs, then that is that is lost revenue when when we all need it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, I've called out many a venue. Don't you worry about that.
SPEAKER_05:I've always been interested as well of, and I'm generalizing the room here, but people of our era who are I hate all that whatever C, D, Gen, whatever you are, all that shit. But um, specifically, you've got people that have a culture that they've grown up in alcohol, and we're trying to give them options, but then you've got this incumbent group of younger people who still want to go to pubs and still want to go on dates and still want to go and watch music, but don't actually have a predisposition of being a Guinness drinker or a wine drinker. So having that kind of option for them is so important, otherwise they're gonna be turning up to you know our age and missing out on this wonderful kind of period, as you said, of being together. And I think there's this kind of looking at what we can do to help people that are trying to switch in or find pre-moments for their drinking, but also this kind of younger generation that's coming in that might be left drinking what is it, 800 million pounds worth of water in the pubs. Like it's you know, it's it's our duty to give them a reason to come to these brilliant spaces.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, they are they are the bedrock of society pubs, and they need to be protected.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I meant the people are the young ones, but yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Oh, the Oh, yeah, oh that was good. I missed that. That was so good it went over my head. Okay, at this point, we're gonna end section one of this podcast. And well, we're not we're not actually gonna end it yet, because we're gonna throw something else on all of you. Not a hundred thousand points or ten thousand cans. Ten thousand cans would hurt more than a hundred thousand points, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_05:Well, that's a little bit more.
SPEAKER_08:Although no, because you'd be very wet, wouldn't you, after a hundred thousand. This is irrelevant. This is irrelevant. We're gonna get the audience to ask some questions if you have any questions. Yes, we got a few hands.
SPEAKER_02:Hello. Hi. Okay. Uh I just wanted to ask uh from a sort of uh sales or innovation perspective. I run a venue in South London and telling people, my bosses and people who run our bars, that I would like to introduce more non-alcoholic options is a tough sale because they just don't see why that one beer is not enough, why uh that one non-alcoholic spirit is not enough. And it's not about just like making the experience as uh more profitable for us as a venue, but also for people just to have a better experience in general. And uh I just don't want to sound like a preacher when I go into the to the board or to the owners and tell them about it. It's more about how to make them see that it's an exciting new avenue to explore.
SPEAKER_05:It's that simple, right? So what is it? One in four consumers now aren't drinking, one in three occasions are sober in pubs. So you've got this consumer who comes in who will stay longer, probably spend more, um, all of those good things. But if you think back to your vegan friend or your vegetarian friend, they're the ones who choose which restaurant you go to, right? So you're not just losing one person, you're losing a group of people if you're not catering for them. So it's up to your boss, as it were, to ask him, does he want to lose four people or cater for one?
SPEAKER_08:I mean, I I've often said that Heineken 0% is the most dangerous drink in the world. Um and I really believe it is. It's a slogan because you give somebody I mean, I don't know what what what option you have, but let's assume it's it's something along the lines of a Heineken. Um you give somebody that and and you give them a really good excuse to never drink uh a non-alcoholic beer ever again because it's fucking terrible. Um So I think it's it's it's as you say, you're you're turning people away immediately, and you're if you want a future-proof a venue, that's a really good way to not future-proof it is by only offering one thing. But I think it's just about getting people to try things in terms of even venue owners. It's like try this. Tell me honestly that that is no is is not better than that. And if if I've got a tongue, then they're gonna see it, hopefully, you know, and and a and an eye for business. Uh does anybody have anything to add?
SPEAKER_07:I was thinking the margin's probably better, is it, on the non-alcoholic stuff? So there might be more money to be made as as well per per drink sold if you don't have to pay duty. Or is that not not really the case? It's more like it costs a lot to make, don't they, as well, especially in the BL.
SPEAKER_05:The amount that they have. There's definitely an upside in margin from soft drinks, and there's an infinite upside from not spending any money because someone came to your pub, you've put the lights on, you've paid the rent, you've got the staff, and then someone gets some council pop out of the tap. So there's definite spaces where it works, but it's yeah, people will normally stay longer.
SPEAKER_03:I think that number, the the fact that one in three pub bar restaurant visits now are alcohol free. I think just being able to offer a really great quality alcohol-free option is just inclusivity now. As soon as you don't kind of offer that, you're now not catering for one in three people, which I think is quite a big number. Um, and yeah, we've like experienced more and more pubs now. It's you know, they're looking to always have at least one alcohol-free beer on tap, which is amazing to see, but that's just to provide that inclusivity for everybody that's coming in. Um, and to that point, the people that aren't drinking or the kind of the vegetarians of the group, they are the people recommending those venues, um, which is exactly why we have our tap map. So, and we get so many messages and we do consumer calls, and you know, they absolutely love the fact that they can just land on this one page and there's a tap, sorry, there's a map that they can find exactly where they can get like a good alcohol-free beer.
SPEAKER_08:I literally saved my first 12 months of sobriety on tap map. It was it was so so important. I can't even begin to tell you.
SPEAKER_03:That's really but yeah, so they're the people going on the map, they're picking the venues and they're bringing their groups to those locations. So it really is kind of a footfall driver as well.
SPEAKER_08:Probably got time for one more question this round. We will have more later on, but well shit, what do we do now?
SPEAKER_05:Should we do that solar?
SPEAKER_08:Join us for part two, straight after this little information break, I assume. Welcome back to part two. We have called is to bossing it because of course, boss it, the official slogan of the Dry January Challenge 2026. We're joined by a new face, who wanna for you.
SPEAKER_01:This is an intro for you. Tell the people. I am sorry, suspense. Um I'm Hattie, I run sober happy free, which is an online sobriety community, and I also do sobriety coaching.
SPEAKER_08:Well, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. We really wanted to have someone from the the sober community as part of this panel because, of course, it's kind of what we feel like we have a little bit of ownership over Dry January, the Dry January Challenge, don't we? As people that are in the sober community, it's kind of like, oh, we do we have to do this all the time. This is just everyday life for us. So it's really nice to have you here. Um I was reminded during our little break where I ate loads of cheese, and I'm really aware that I probably stink of cheese now. Um I didn't actually intro myself, I was just gonna do that if that's okay with you, very quickly, and just break into break down my alcoholism, if that's okay with everyone, and then we'll throw into everyone else's alcoholic. I'm joking. Everyone else's alcoholism. Um so I'm I'm I'm Ben and I I am uh an alcoholic who got sober in January 2022. Um I was only really uh in full-blown addiction for about six months, so it was it was very hot and fast, but whilst um whilst under that kind of plague of addiction, if you like, I also got quite into other things like you know, cocaine, which was lovely until it wasn't. Um I had to get sober because realised that my life was just gonna end if I didn't and managed to upset a load of people, which I'd never really done in my life as a drinker historically. But when once I started being nasty to people, it was like, oh, that's happened once, so now that's gonna happen every single time that I drink. And it wasn't that I had to drink every day, I kind of have one drink and then I'd have to have 30 drinks. Because what's the point? What's the point in? I don't I still don't understand what the point in having one beer is. And I never will, but there's no point in it. It's a stupid idea. You want if you're drinking alcohol, you want to get wrapped out. Anyway, since then, I've thrown myself into a world of alcohol-free beer, as you may have noticed in part one because I didn't shut the fuck up about alcohol free beer. Um I've tried over a thousand alcohol-free beers to set up the sober boozers club community. Um, and that brings us here. So, enough about me. Let's talk about. I thought it'd be fun to do the 2016 challenge because that's been a thing going on at the moment. Kathy, what did 2016 look like for you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I have to be honest, I was definitely not across the no and low drinks market at that time. So I Got sober in April 2021, and so back in 2016, I was very much in my active addiction. Um, sort of like you, it was alcohol, but for me, I'd never sort of had a normal, normal, inadverted comments, um relationship with alcohol, and it sort of really escalated when I then found cocaine, and so the sort of last three years of my drinking, you know, I was going to say everything really sped up quite literally and figuratively, um, which I I now actually feel very grateful for because it got me to sobriety quicker. Um, but I think in terms of you know, with with dry January in in 2016, it wouldn't have even been something that I would have attempted because I think I would have just been too scared to. So yeah, life looked very different back in 2016.
SPEAKER_08:I think when you look at things like the dry January Challenge, for me that was my first kind of that's for be quiet out there, you. Um for me, I'm joking. For me, that was the first time that I kind of thought about oh, a month, a whole month away from booze. I could do a month. Yeah. And that's one of the things I I said I I didn't get on with with AA and and I that just didn't didn't speak to me. But one of the most important things from from AA is it's just for today. You're doing it for today. You're doing it for today. For me, it was doing it for January, which is the shittiest month in the world. Um let's let's be honest, I can do that because then I'm not thinking of of Christmas, I'm not thinking of of New Year, maybe New Year's Day, but that's fine. I don't want to drink on New Year's Day anyway. Um but you're not thinking of those big occasions, you're just thinking of that one month. Something about it being that kind of 31 or in January terms, 761-day challenge, I think is really special and it makes it feel achievable, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Definitely, and actually for me, so my sort of sobriety date is is uh 26th of April 2021, but it starts thank you. It's huge, but it's huge. Um but it very much started with January, so I think it makes it uh much less overwhelming knowing that it's for a month, and at the beginning of that month, I it was very much using the the uh Tri-Dry app and ticking those days off and sort of building that confidence. Um, and it was within that time that I then sort of towards the end of January committed to doing a hundred days, and I remember when someone suggested it and I just thought, I mean, it just seemed like madness. I I could never go more than a few days. So the idea that I was coming to the end of January and I was going to suddenly take on this hundred days um felt really scary. But actually doing that was I learned so much in that time, and actually it was impossible to ignore how much better I felt. Um, but the key difference for me was in that hundred days, I had never said to myself or committed that I was, you know, that I was going to be sober or go sober, and um, so I did then pick up a drink and had one day uh of drinking, and it was at the end of that day that I just knew it didn't matter how much time had passed, my relationship with alcohol was always going to be the same. Um, and so that then led to my you know my sobriety today, and I think it's it's a really important. Whilst there's so many opportunities within the year, I think it it breaks it down, and it's it was by I think design that all of my friends and my circle were big drinkers, and so the idea that dry January was sort of known and maybe other people were engaging in it made it feel like exactly yes.
SPEAKER_08:I think it's it's a really interesting point, isn't it? That that kind of line. Nobody knows what drink takes them over, from being a fun, jolly happy drinker to a kind of wretched, hungover drinker that is, you know, it's it's always November. You know, when you're in that period, when you when you're really under it, every day is November, and it it's just wretched. Um, and it's kind of how I know that I'm still an addict now. I am sure that I could go and have that alcoholic drink that's perched there because the Lucky Saint serves alcohol drinks as well, which I think is the future of hospitality, a nice blend. But I think I could drink that and be fine. I I and I really believe that I could, but that's how I know I'm an addict. Because in my heart of hearts, I'm like, yeah, I'd be fine. And it's like, yeah, of course you do, you sneaky little bastard. Like, you know, but I think with dry ja it's interesting that you started in in January as the dry. I mean, I I only started in in January, and I'm just being completely transparent. I only got sober in January, it was January the 8th, um, because I played a David Bowie tribute night the night before and got absolutely like wrecked and really upset a lot of people, so I was forced to. But I know people, one of one of my closest friends in the world, a chap called called Martin Dixon, Alcohol Free World, he did dry January. Didn't have a problem with with alcohol at all, but did dry January every year and then just carried on. Hasn't drank since is now one of the most fantastic alcohol-free award-winning beer commentators in the country. It's the thing that dry January can do. You touched on the dry um the Tri Dry app. Yeah. I believe we've got more info on that, have we not? The Tri-Dry App. Tell all.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so not 2016, um, because it was not around just yet. But we do have numbers from 2018. Ooh! Um and from 2018 to present, kind of what people have logged in the Tri-Dry app, which I think is really incredible. Um, and the fact that people have saved 1.55 billion pounds uh on teacups that they have banked in that period. And that's also um 258 million units that people have uh foregone and uh 16.2 billion empty calories in that. So kind of incredible to look at it like on a cumulative. Um, and I love seeing that at the end of every January, kind of what did everybody bank within that. Um because seeing how many people are taking something away from that um and making real tangible changes in their life is incredible, and I do think that it's an invitation and a starting point for people to explore that and see what they learn and then what they want to do with that information.
SPEAKER_08:I think Hattie touched on a really important point, is that it's kind of that acceptance from somebody from a drinking buddy, because I mean I don't know about you, but I've got friends that were in my life before that now aren't because they were just drinking buddies. Um, and that's really sad, but also that's just the reality of life. But there's there's other friends that that would have been in that bracket of being drinking buddies, but if you do it during dry January, it's like, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, you're doing dry January, it's fine, we'll we'll get on it afterwards. But once you've made that that change for a month, that seed's been planted. And I think that's the really important part, isn't it? Once that seed's been planted, and of course it doesn't just have to be for January. I believe that you're launching a try-dry anytime.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so we've already launched a try-dry anytime, so a 31-day journey that people can do any time of year. Um so that you're basically getting the dry January challenge behavior change journey with the daily check-ins and app support, um, but on your own time. And uh another program that we are rolling out that launched last year, and I think this year there will be a lot more noise about, and I'm really excited about it, um, is the cutback challenge. And that is for people who don't necessarily want to abstain, but they recognize that there's something that they want to do differently in their drinking habits. So you can determine, you know, what are your goals around drinking? Is that to take a certain amount of time off? Is that to redo reduce your number of weekly units and whatever you're choosing, we have a supporter journey that can that can get you there.
SPEAKER_08:I love that because it's kind of I think when people are doing the the dry January challenge, you get to the end of the month and you think, oh shit, what now? And like that community feels if you if you've just been doing it through the app or or etc., it's like, oh, where's all this support gone? Where's where's all of all of my where are all my people at? All of a sudden everyone's disappearing out into the into the real world. Um so I think that's a really cool incentive.
SPEAKER_04:Something that I was actually reflecting on and thinking about this too, um, and it's amazing that the Dry January Challenge has grown into the moment that it is. Um, and the fact that there is so much brand activity, and also, you know, there are more activities out in the world that people are people are tailoring for alcohol-free experiences. So, like we also worked with Class Bento um this this month, which um I thought was amazing. So they're an online, like they do workshops and things. So you can pick up a hobby, you can try something new, and you're probably going to meet other people who are also on that journey and trying something different and fumbling their way through. So you're going to connect with more people who are maybe new to this, and then you can bond together. Um, you know, we also have a Facebook uh Facebook, what do they call it? I don't go on Facebook groups. Thank you. Thank you. I'm like, what do people do on Facebook? Um but there are Facebook groups and WhatsApp channels, and we have quotes from people saying, you know, that they're going to start now these splinter groups that they have connected. They've they've gotten so much support and want to continue now with people who are in the same boat as them, who have the same sober day as them. Like we are creating those communities as well, and then people are taking it and flourishing and making it their own as well.
SPEAKER_08:I'm certainly seeing that on social media. I don't know about you, Hattie, but loads of little baby sober people that come into the world and start new accounts, and it's like, yes, one of us, welcome. Um because when I I mean I was, I can't remember, four years ago. When was that? I'm not even gonna attempt to think about that. But um, when I first came into the world of a sober Instagram, it was quite barren. I mean, there was a fair few people, people going, but it was, you know, you had your your big your big ten. Um but now it's for so many people just talking about sobriety on the internet, and it's a really I was just having a conversation about how it's it seems to be a really encouraging place. You know, you'll see people comment and say, I'm I'm a hundred days today. And the amount of likes and the amount of love on there, you don't get anyone. I mean, I get a fair few like Harry Potters, and like you've you've got a shit bulka and what whatever, which is why I don't have the bulker anymore. Um, but as a whole, the community just seems really supportive and growing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I I really wasn't sure what to expect when I sort of went onto social media, and the idea for sober happy free started, I think, two or three years before I felt like I had the courage to do that first post because through my addiction, my sort of confidence and self-esteem was so low, and I wasn't sure what the response was going to be. But actually, as you say, it's such an encouraging, supportive community. That's certainly been my experience, and I think there's a there's a place and space for all different types of accounts and angles because ultimately, for me, before I got sober, I couldn't believe that it would be possible. And so, seeing sort of everyday normal people, not sort of maybe big celebrities, and it kind of feels maybe like unattainable, getting sober and seeing what their life looked like, but also the flip side of what it was like before, I think was really inspiring. And I think for me, I'm always just so in awe of people that post sort of their day one of getting sober because at that point for me it was I was really sort of clinging on. Um and you know, the fact that they can be open, I think that's a really interesting um sort of perspective to receive, uh coupled with people that have sort of years of sobriety um behind them as well.
SPEAKER_08:We're doing a bit of a 2016 throwback, or we haven't a 2018 throwback. Uh I was still getting on it all the time throwback, guilty as well, throwback. Alcohol-free cider 2016. What the bloody hell did that look like?
SPEAKER_05:You're going to do this because I wasn't supposed to be on this panel.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, I know, but I've seen you got a microphone on, and I was thinking I'll get him. It probably was. And I'm not joking there.
SPEAKER_05:Some I haven't talked about my son Fox and Wilbur for a while because I'm a cool dad. Um, but like I just become a father ten years ago. And it was quite interesting if I got.
SPEAKER_08:At 14. No, 2016. Yeah, at 14. I was a bit complimenting you.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'm a bit tired. That's a good joke though.
SPEAKER_08:Thank you.
SPEAKER_05:Over my head. Um, yeah, so I guess I'm reflecting quite in the moment about this, and it suddenly was like having the perspective of what my influence and my I'm not sober, but I have definitely been on this moderation journey of then going, right, well, I've got to get my shit together because there's someone else that I've got to look after.
SPEAKER_08:Keep them alive.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but also like, you know, those kind of moments of there's this terminology of, you know, how much do you want to steal from tomorrow and all that kind of stuff. And you do kind of get to that point where you go, okay, well, I guess I'm I guess I would call myself a uh like a binge drinker in the new format of going, well, that used to be kind of the cool thing to say when people were binge drinking, but I actually think nowadays people go, well, I can drink through the week in these moderate spaces, but maybe I'm gonna have these moments where it's stados or festivals, whatever wanna do. When you have a kid, you suddenly go, Well, I want to make sure that I'm present in those moments and have those good moments. So 2016 was when I started to really start to think it wasn't just about my long-suffering partner who had to look after me sometimes, but you know, what was that influence? And that's definitely seeded my thinking, probably, that wasn't about creating this then, but must have been cognitively in the background going, okay, well, what can be a tool that can give you it? And we had beer, and we've got lovely Guinness that's doing wonderful things, and we're getting better with spirits and whites. But for a cider, for me, it was going when I did get to this point of going, I need to have this moderate option. I looked at cider and there wasn't one, and I thought, well, fucking, I've got to do it then, haven't I?
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, if you if you want something to exist that doesn't, you've got to do it yourself.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:So yeah, I say we were joking, or I was joking, or or prodding fun, but it probably would have been apple ties or a schlur if you wanted a non-out cider in 2016. I might be wrong, someone might come at me now and be like, we were doing it. Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Alright, sorry. And sorry, no, I didn't know. But um, no, totally. It's it's an interesting um it's an interesting category because I always say that if you want to make a gin or you want to make a beer, you can pretty much go and buy the stuff off the internet and get someone to make it. But if you want to make a tider Like a proper tider.
SPEAKER_08:Oh yeah, you need a big factory. You need a load of apples.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So there isn't a lot there isn't a lot of people that are in the space of doing what what we're doing. And when I went to the cider community to kind of look at it, they just didn't have the infrastructure or the inclination. They were years, this is four years ago. So think of where you were talking about how Lucky Saints accelerated in five years. Cider just wasn't interested, and I was very lucky that we found a partner who was already doing it in a different space in kind of grocery. But yeah, it was it was really difficult to find someone who wanted to kind of do it. And I was kind of sat there going, CIDA's a massive thing, right? Like surely someone else is doing this.
SPEAKER_08:Um we mentioned beer, you mentioned beer. Lucky saying, this is top of my head. So founded 2019, launched on Tap in 2021, I think. Um so we had COVID going. I've probably got that wrong. You can you can fact check and you can tell me afterwards. Um but we had a big old pile of COVID going on through there, didn't we? Which was a little bit problematic.
SPEAKER_03:So we actually we launched on draft just as COVID hit.
SPEAKER_08:So 2019.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:So was it founded in 2016?
SPEAKER_03:Founded in 2018.
SPEAKER_08:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Very close.
SPEAKER_09:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Um but yeah, we launched, I joined kind of mid-COVID, so this was kind of before my time. Um, but we launched on draft, yeah, just before we went into lockdown.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's a fucking nightmare.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and obviously the whole business had to adapt and change, and all of our focus um turned to online D2C. Um so yeah, it was definitely challenging. But I'm trying to think, 2016, so we didn't exist. Um and I think there was obviously a huge gap in the market. It was probably about the time Luke was um figuring out what he wanted to do and how he was going to create a really great alcohol-free beer. He always talks about how kind of in those years before he started Lucky Saint, that he just wanted to create a product that people obviously really enjoyed drinking, so a great tasting alcohol-free beer, but also a brand that people were proud to order over the bar. I think probably back in 2016, you were still in that phase of when you were ordering something over the bar, you'd kind of be a bit embarrassed and like hush it behind your mouth. Um, but yeah, hopefully the change has been big and people are kind of proud to be drinking alcohol free now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Well, there's there's two breweries I won't name what I can think of that were 2016, but that's you know, really niche. Obviously, you go into Germany, you've got Klaus Teller in the 70s inventing controlled fermentation, which is why we say Germany, UK, we were a little bit behind. But you read a lot of these founder stories, a lot of these origin stories, of it it's usually person wants to drink a beer without alcohol. Beer without alcohol doesn't exist. Person thinks, fuck's sake, I'll have to make one then. And that was pretty much for the way that people had to do this. Um, and the community has flourished from that point. I mean, I can remember ordering my my first Lucky Saint on tap. And for that 12 months, every time I'd order one, the person at the bar will be like, you know it's alcohol free. That doesn't happen anymore. I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but when you order a non-alk drink now, people don't do that little clarity check and being like, you know it's alcohol free. That's a really subtle sign to me that things have moved somewhere, is that they that it it can't be an accident. Whereas before I did it was like, oh, I better just warn you there's no booze in this. Whereas now it's oh no, if you're ordering that, then you're you're fully aware of what you're what you're drinking. But you look at the Lucky Scent community, I mean, you have run clubs, you have quiz nights, you have I mean so many fingers in so many parties. It's not just for sober people, which is probably what people would assume it was about when you launch, you know, alcohol-free beer must be for someone sober, but it's not, is it? It's about so much more.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, there's lots of sober people that obviously do drink Lucky Saint, but I think the majority of people that do drink us are moderators for various reasons. Um, and we've kind of done a lot of work to find those communities and become a part of those communities. You know, in lockdown, it very much started with the online community, so we were kind of reaching, doing a lot of outreach, messaging people. One of our mantras is kind of be generous, so we were going above and beyond like sending people um alcohol-free beer to kind of get them through lockdown. Um, and then obviously when we came out of lockdown, we just showed up, so we were going out and about to events, um, kind of working with partners, so definitely like kind of like leaning into that active lifestyle space. So we did a lot with running run clubs, brands, cyclists, kind of all that crowd. Um, and then I think the big change for us when it came to community was actually opening the pub because it meant that we had a brand home and a space for us to actually be able to host our own events and host our community. So um we launched our run club um in 2023 and it's just massively blown up, which has been incredible to see. We have um so we had one in January on like the 10th of January, so the first or the second Saturday, and we were kind of a bit nervous as to like what the uptake was gonna be. Um, but we had like over 300 people sign up in like an hour.
SPEAKER_08:In an hour.
SPEAKER_03:So many people signed up, and then we could obviously only host like 80 people, so we had a couple of hundred people on the wait list, people messaging us being like, when are you gonna do your next one? Um so yeah, it's really, really cool to see, and it's yeah, great kind of bringing the community to life both um online and in person.
SPEAKER_08:Well, it's something it's a household name now, I would say. For for me, I I would I would certainly say it's if it's not a household name, yeah, it's certainly very close to becoming one. You think alcohol-free beer on tap, you think Lucky Saint, you just do, and you know you're gonna get a good pint.
SPEAKER_03:That was definitely our mission. We kind of always refer back to Guinness and how you know when you want a stout, you just order Guinness over the bar. We kind of wanted to do that when it came to alcohol-free beer. So if you want an alcohol-free beer, you just kind of order a Lucky Saint. Um, so yeah, it's been a couple of things.
SPEAKER_08:No, I think you've nailed it. You've nailed it in a way that Carl Carling uh let's not talk about Carling. But yeah, I know what you mean. Uh, for a lot of people, Carling is lager, Guinness is stout, alcohol-free draught beer, point of Lucky Saint, please. Easy. Like, yeah, and I think you've absolutely nailed that. And it's um and with the whole range that you have now, I mean you were on the on the lemon lager earlier, I'm on the bloody delicious wheat beer. This glass, by the way, is awesome.
SPEAKER_01:It's cool, isn't it?
SPEAKER_08:It's really good. I really like this. Um, if I was still drunk, I'd probably steal it, but I'm not going to. But you've got the wheat beer, you've got the Well yes, you've got the lager, you've got the IPA. Like you've really got a really solid core range of drinks, but you didn't just throw out all at the same time. You crafted them, you made them ro I mean this sweet beer, honestly the sweet beer.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we I mean we just had the lager for three years. We were kind of all in just on the lager, and then obviously we saw the change in the category as more and more people were entering the category. They obviously have different tastes or they kind of um enjoy different styles of beer. Um so then the next one we launched was the Hazy IPA, which again we were quite nervous to launch, weren't really sure like how it was going to go, and it just went incredibly well. Um, and then we launched the lemon lager last summer, which is my personal favourite. Um, and then the German Weiss beer, which is the one that you are enjoying. We launched that in October. Um, but I think it just caters, you know, for everybody, for different people's tastes. Like, for example, you might want to enjoy lager throughout Christmas, but then when it comes to summer, you might want to enjoy a lemon lager instead. So it just kind of reflects seasonality in different people's beer tastes.
SPEAKER_08:I think you know, we we're seeing from just one company that growth, that amount of beers being released, and I mean, owning a pub in central London for a non-alk brand to do that, that's huge. That's absolutely huge. And I think it it speaks volumes, doesn't it, for how people are willing to get on board and get behind a brand like this, which, as you say, but would be a nervousness for people might not want to support it because it kind of challenges their values of being like, oh no, it's it's anti-drink. Which goes back to the alcohol change message of not being anti-drink, doesn't it? Which I think is Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I think that the only reason that we're able to add so much variety to the market is because the market wants it now. Um so yeah, it's fantastic that there's actually enough support in the the wider community that it is a sensical decision for brands to invest in catering to people who are choosing different lifestyles.
SPEAKER_08:And Hattie, we mentioned, we touched on earlier how some drinks for people that are in in recovery can be triggering. How how have you found the no and low scene? Do you find that you you get on with them or do you kind of stay away and stick to the the more left-of-feel drinks?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think in my sort of very early sobriety, I was definitely a sort of more cautious. Um, and so I kind of I just sort of stuck to you know lemonade and things like that. But actually, as the time has gone on, I really love trying out different non-alcoholic drinks. I personally don't find it triggering, but I don't think there's a sort of right or wrong way to be sober, and so if it is a trigger, then it's you know it's obviously best to stay away. But I think I sort of also just threw the rule book out of what I thought I liked around alcohol. So, you know, I used to be a big sort of vodka and gin drinker, but they're actually probably the non-alcoholic versions that I I don't drink, and I've I was never a beer drinker, but I actually really love a non-alcoholic beer um cider. Um, this is also delicious, by the way. I've nearly drunk the whole uh yeah, yeah, the counterculture is brilliant. Um, so you know, I think there's it for me, it makes such a meaningful difference. If I'm at home, um, it's that ritual of pouring a lovely drink and taking the time to make it um and enjoy it. And if I'm out, I I you know, I I I went to Madrid a a couple of months ago, and because I got sober in London and you know, the UK, we have so many fantastic options here. And then I would find myself out for dinner in Madrid, and I just you know, there was one non-alcoholic beer on the menu or tonic water, and it really actually it surprised me by how much it changed the experience for me. Um, and it's you know, it didn't feel kind of as inclusive. And actually, when I am out, I'm very happy to sort of spend whatever I would have done on alcohol. Well, I wouldn't spend that much because you know, all the uh all the kind of knock on effect of that, but I sort of see you know, I see so much value in in paying for a non-alcoholic drink that is delicious, that feels sort of inclusive of whoever I'm kind of socializing with, and it yeah, really makes a difference to the experience.
SPEAKER_08:Kind of it makes it feel like you're you're not somebody that's trying not to drink, you're just somebody that doesn't drink alcohol.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_08:But you know, I mean we we're all there's a table full of drinks.
SPEAKER_04:You would almost say that we're still drinking, yeah, just differently.
SPEAKER_08:And with that, I'm gonna open up to any questions.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir. It's quite clear that culture's changing and people want to have alcohol-free options on the menu, whether you're completely abstaining or just moderating everywhere else. Um, and it's so important to have good quality products on the menu to make that work and land properly. So, what's your one key message to venues that may be thinking about expanding their alcohol-free menu or their moderation menu? Um, and those that aren't really looking at it. So, what's your one key message that you want to for them to take away, John?
SPEAKER_05:Thanks, Ross. Um, I've got a slightly different spin in terms of in production, we've talked about consumers and venues and such. I think there's a really interesting space where the people that are making um non-ARC drinks see it as a whole new space for them to have a new toolkit, challenge themselves, like brewers and cider producers, and spirit drinkers and wine producers. Like, this is a new way of them looking how to develop it. And I think if you look at the real tastemakers of cocktail makers and mixologists, like they're really interested because they're building blocks. So I think anyone who's looking to expand the portfolio of they've got, we know it's a commercial opportunity. We know that consumers want to do it. But actually, like have the fun of going to explore it, go and see these great small brewers and go and see these great spirit producers and just explore it because the knee-jerk reaction is to go, we'll put in Heineken Zero Zero Peroni Blue, whatever that is. But that's spots thanks for the sponsor, Heineken Zero Zero. But the whole the whole simplicity of that is is gonna kind of breathe the boredom. Like, if you really want to do something cool, go and find the special thing, don't go to the knee-jerk because there's no joy there. And actually, going and finding these amazing brewers like We Could Be Friends or the Mash Gang guys or all that kind of stuff, they're doing such fucking amazingly cool stuff. Don't just look on it as like a category opportunity, look at it as a new space to find something exciting for your menu.
SPEAKER_08:Great answer. Can I expand that to the rest of the panel as well? Mine would be a bit less elegant, and it would be that um obviously the hospitality industry is fucked enough without it fucking itself more. That was what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_03:I can go next. Um, oh my goodness. I think what I'd say to venues is like, you know, if they're thinking about it, you know, we do a lot, or everything that we can do to support hospitality. Um so whether that's kind of working with them to like drive footfall or you know, whatever their goals might be, or if they're trying to figure out where to put alcohol free on a menu, like kind of turning to people that are in that space, the brands are in that space, and kind of asking for, you know, if they have any questions, like we can definitely like support them in whatever way that they might need it.
SPEAKER_04:Um yeah, I don't know that I have much to add to the trade perspective that hasn't been said. Like, I really I really love John that your uh your vegan uh analogy. Because yeah, I mean, if somebody does have some sort of dietary need or requirement, then they're probably going to influence the selection. And uh so you want to make sure that you're catering to everybody. And we know that it's not just people who are abstaining, you know, people that are moderating. And it also makes, I think, uh probably a better service experience for a lot of people if you have people that are less intoxicated in your establishment, um, you know, from from your workplace well-being perspective as well to consider.
SPEAKER_05:I think to Sarah's point as well. You speak to a non-ALP brand and say, can you help me? Yeah, they will do everything they can. Oh yeah. They'll be so hungry to try and push the category and give you visibility and give you support and rate of sale and bring their community in far more than these slightly more weathered alcohol brands, which have just had it so simple.
SPEAKER_06:It's what the coffee industry does to cafes. Like they support cafes. If you want to get started as a cafe, the coffee industry will support you through getting out there and giving your brain and it's it's a great thing to do.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:We even go as far as we've got like you know, an in-house beer technician team, you know, always on hand. Like if there's any problems, like if the beer's pouring funny, like we'll kind of get down, get in venue, and kind of make sure that we sort it out. So, yeah, going above and beyond in terms of making sure that you've got everything you need to like serve, great.
SPEAKER_08:Very good with logistics as well, I'm lucky saying. Genuinely for on tap or venues, I've I've heard from many people that you're a dream to work with. So I think Hattie, have you got a point on that?
SPEAKER_01:I was just gonna say, I think it's important to consider the the actual ingredients of a non-alcoholic drink. So for me, if I was to have something that was sort of very high in sugar content, I'm unlikely to want to drink another one of them. So actually, also looking at the health benefits, and obviously it's a whole nother conversation around the functional drink space, but that's you know rapidly growing, and I think it's an interesting space. But I think you know that also appeals to a broader market of people that are being very health conscious and they they want a drink that supports that.
SPEAKER_08:Do we have any other questions from the lovely people in the room? I see a hand.
SPEAKER_00:I think it was lovely to hear everyone's reflections of 10 years ago and how much the industry has changed. But if everyone could put their genie hats on, rub the crystal ball, what does 10 years in the future look like for the industry?
SPEAKER_08:For me, 10 years in the future looks um it looks very similar to what venues look like now. It's just for every ten taps in a pub, I'm gonna talk about beer because obviously for every 10 taps with alcohol, you might have three taps without alcohol, four taps without alcohol. You won't have a token lager or a fridge full of Guinness as good as it might be, Heineken, shit, Peroni, mm-hmm, Erdinger, I'd rather have this. Um, you know, you choice will be about choice. You won't you won't be dictated on which venue you go to based on its selection because you'll just trust that there will be a selection in every venue. And that that can be as little as as two options, three options, just just more than it won't be dictated to us what we're gonna have, and we won't think, oh thank god, for something here that isn't you know one of those macro brews. Um that's what I think the future would be. Well, it would be lovely if the future was like that. Where I think the future could go is macro dominance, and I think we've got a real risk of that. Um, this is me being a little bit negative now, but I think as the category grows, we've got a real potential that these big macro brands are just gonna flood venues with with really mid-range options, um, and that the alcohol-free, the wonderful alcohol-free drinks sector will be niche and kind of it will be an occult thing that will never go away but just won't be as relevant. I think in reality we'll we'll see a blend of both. I think 2026 is going to be the year of alcohol-free beer on draft. Um, I'm hoping that 2027, 2028, 2029, etc., will be the year of indie, indie breweries cracking supermarkets and Lucky Saint releasing a bitter and a stout.
SPEAKER_01:I think to talk to the point around sort of beyond the drink space and more around the sobriety conversation, I sometimes liken it to the sort of tobacco industry where it was so mainstream at one stage, almost to a point where you couldn't imagine it not being. And actually, it's sort of you know been uh pushed to the sidelines, and the health implications of it have been increasingly understood, and I do see that uh being reflected in the sort of alcohol and the sobriety movement. And I think the I was at the Club Soda Um Low conference last year, and just the energy and the enthusiasm from the uh attendees there and these different um non-alcoholic drinks company and the uh companies in the functional drinks um space was just it was electric, it was really exciting, and looking at the data that supported that as well, it does just feel like a you know, a this growing movement that I absolutely don't see stopping. And so sort of to look beyond the 10 years, you've now got generations growing up in families that alcohol maybe isn't as prevalent, it isn't sort of in that daily ritual, and I think that's you know, that's a really um an interesting sort of space that it will change the perception and the sort of the normalizing of alcohol, and certainly not to demonize alcohol, but I just think the space for for non-alcoholic drinks is is here to stay.
SPEAKER_04:That is absolutely my point as well. I think we talked about the dry January challenge being a time that people can make choices um with fewer questions and greater acceptance, and um, you know, we we want to see that year-round. Um there's been huge strides in the stigma um around making your own personal choices around what uh your relationship with alcohol looks like, but that we've still got a long way to go. Um so continuing to move that needle and making so that whatever your relationship with alcohol looks like, it's not something that needs to be interrogated except from yourself, and that the tools and resources that you need to shift that however you see necessary are readily available. But yeah, reducing stigma and uh empowering personal choice, which I don't understand why that's um issue.
SPEAKER_08:It really shouldn't be, should it? Well, long may those resources be available, long may Alcohol Change UK be not only doing the dry January challenge, but all of the incredible things that they do year round, all year round. Long may the fantastic brands that are a part of this wonderful dry January Challenge continue to produce incredible things like bitters and stouts. Um and yeah, long, long may options, because that's the thing, isn't it? Options. We're just here to talk about options. It's really not that not that tough, is it? So with that, I think it's time for me to say, you can all leave now. No, um, it's time for me to say a big thank you to all of our fantastic panelists, to the Guys at Chance, Clean Cider for being wonderful sponsorship partners for the Sober Boozers Club Podcast, to all of my lovely studio audience members for joining me, the wonderful folks at Coolbox for all of their work. Um Cheers, really. Here's to the Dry January Challenge 2026. Cheers.